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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Patrickneil (talk | contribs) at 17:25, 31 August 2007 (I really feel like I'm getting picked on here because of the FAC page not because of the actual references in the article under analysis). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 17:25, 31 August 2007 by Patrickneil (talk | contribs) (I really feel like I'm getting picked on here because of the FAC page not because of the actual references in the article under analysis)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Georgetown University

Self nomination. GA and peer reviewed article that I have spent a lot of time researching. The two extensive GA processes greatly improved the article. I feel it is both well written and well sourced. I am anxious to hear your thoughts on our article.--Patrick 00:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment Need to check two seasonal references for appropriateness, per MOS, namely: in the fall of 1969 and fall of 2006. Is there a good reason to state the season here, and would the article lose information by rewording? The former (1969) appears to be a reference to the start of the academic year, so this may work better if reworded to state this, perhaps as at the start of the 1969/70 academic year. Another approach that may work here would be to rephrase it as the fall term or whatever the usual name is of that term in the academic year, possibly with a link to an article (eg: Academic year) that expands on the meaning of fall term. The other reference is simply a substitute for a date format, and may work better if reworded as such, perhaps as late 2006 or a specific month in 2006 if that information is available. -- B.D.Mills  (T, C) 13:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I've done this for the 1969 reference, but am unsure about how to proceed with the other. --Ybbor 15:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 Done I understand your concern for the global readability. In the context of the article, these seasons always refer to the semester, and I will specify.--Patrick 18:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Support Impressively researched, well-written, comprehensive. I'm also impressed by how good many of the sub-articles are. It's too bad that Misplaced Pages is so vehemently against "popular culture" sections right now; The Exorcist, St. Elmo's Fire, Above the Rim, etc. Oh well, hopefully the tide will turn someday. All the major points of MOS are covered; further MOS fixes will be simple to address and so I'm confident this is FA quality. Oh, and you're a particularly good photographer. To take two examples, I notice Cornell University has 20 images and Texas A&M University has 24, compared to only 13 here. If you have other good photographs I think you should feel encouraged to add a few more to the article. Cheers! --JayHenry 02:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Why thank you! I am a photographer first, and really try to have images that both relate to the topic and are nice to look at. I read once that images shouldn't overlap, but that doesn't seem to have stopped FA promotion. I've added one more, in student life, just cause you mentioned this. Also, after having racked my brain for months on where to include The Exorcist in the article, I've snuck it into the Events section. Thanks again.--Patrick 05:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Oppose This will be a multi-day review and will incorporate problems that have already been addressed (in order to show progress, or lack threrof). I feel that this article is clearly strongly researched and well-cited, but there are a lot of little things that violate the WP:MoS. Most of these are COMMON problems I have seen with ALL articles, so don't be too alarmed at the number of changes required. In addition, the clearly serious and methodical amount of work is indicative of the editor's efforts and this FAC should not be closed until adequate time has been given to make these changes. (I will change this message if reasonable progress has not been made, otherwise, Raul, please keep this one open).

I am concerned that there has have not been many substantial changes (only 2) to this page (other than my own) in the past 48 hours — BQZip01 — 20:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Please note that this was a weekend and some people are unable to contribute to Misplaced Pages as extensively on weekends as they do during the week. Please, a little patience is really important for these projects. There was no reason to believe that Patrick wasn't going to spend as much time as possible addressing your concerns, and I think bolding this comment may have been unnecessary and maybe even a little unfair. --JayHenry 04:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's 33 edits today, so I am not concerned. Will try to look at it more tomorrow.--Patrick 02:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I am also not concerned...now. I put it in bold to get it noticed, not for any other reason. Don't read too much into it. In addition, my comment was made on Monday evening. — BQZip01 — 04:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
General/Overall Problems
  • The pictures should be set to defaults and not sized according to pixels IAW WP:MoS#Images
 Done--Patrick 17:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
EXCELLENT WORK!!! You even caught ]".
  • Move mid-sentence references to the end of the sentence, unless there is a need for it (i.e. a quote).
 Done There is one quote, it was left.--Patrick 15:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Make sure ALL dates are IAW WP:DATE this includes references too, which I see you have tackled for the most part. However, there are still a few that have been overlooked (as an example, ref #21 doesn't seem to be what you intended). Excellent work!!!
 Done I fixed the reference. There is only one whole date (November 22, 1791) used in the main body of the article, and it is properly linked.--Patrick 18:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Good 'nuff!
  • Eliminate all duplicate sequential references.
For example, you don't need "Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah." when "Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah." will do. One example of this is in the first paragraph of the History section (reference #7).
 Done--Patrick 15:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
  • IAW Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Non-breaking spaces, "n compound items in which numerical and non-numerical elements are separated by a space, non-breaking spaces are recommended to avoid the displacement of those elements at the end of a line." There are lots of these throughout. One example is in th second paragraph of the History section (1,400 troops).
 Done--Patrick 15:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 Not done Um, you need to have a no break space between the number and the associated word, not just within the number itself. For example, use {{nowrap|1,400 troops}}, not {{nowrap|1,400}} troops. For further clarification, I don't think you need to do this with anything more than the first word in compound nouns. — BQZip01 — 21:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 Done--Patrick 22:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • There are a lot of sections that have a single paragraph. Try to expand them.
Sections Alumni, Faculty, and Law Center campus have branch off pages. Research and Facilities abroad include important information that I feel deserve their own sections, and don't easily break into paragraphs. Breaking Facilities abroad into three paragraphs, which is one possibility, creates three paragraphs of 2 to 3 sentences only.--Patrick 17:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Logic seems solid there and upon further reflection, that seems ok. Fine by me to go ahead and keep it. — BQZip01 — 21:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 Done--Patrick 15:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Make sure capitalization is constant throughout the article. One example of this is "The Corp"...or is it "the Corp"...or "The Corp"?
 Done For The Corp and the university. Are there others?--Patrick 15:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Seems fine for now. I'll hit further problems individually as I get to them. — BQZip01 — 21:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
  • 3d images, such as statues need to be tagged accordingly and justification for their inclusion made. The same goes with 2D images. Make sure that all of your images meet their respective standards for use (currently, I don't think you can use the statue at the beginning of the History section).
 Done I took the first photo, so it shouldn't need another tag, however now it has this.--Patrick 15:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 Not done Unfortunately, that isn't good enough. I can take a picture of a famous painting, but I may not be able to use it commercially since it is copyrighted. 2D representations of 3D works of art are acceptable, but must be annotated why. As an example, see this image for an example. — BQZip01 — 21:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I copied the tag from your image, but I doubt its necessity. I haven't been able to find a specific Misplaced Pages instruction regarding this, only long unresolved discussions. I also haven't found one image with a 3D tag from the Gallery at Commons Category Sculpture. Are all of them really lacking a necessary tag? I have to assume it's unnecessary. Perhaps I don't understand. Are you suggesting that Georgetown retains some copyright to the sculpture, or that the sculptor does?--Patrick 15:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
*Have someone you trust run a good spell check on the article. As an example, note that "corps" does not equal "corp" (see the last paragraph).
  • Figures fluctuate frequently (such as the number of faculty). Qualify their usage in some way, such as, "As of Fall 2007, the school had 1202 full-time faculty..."
Only Cornell University out of the Featured University articles does this. Duke University, University of Michigan, and Texas A&M University, for example, list numbers of students and faculty without such qualification. That's not to say they shouldn't have it, but I don't think it is necessary. I read that I should avoid saying "Currently..." and "Today...", and isn't "In 2007..." just another way of doing this? Indeed the number fluctuates year to year, but by very little, maybe by 10 students or 5 professors. The numbers under Admissions all do have this qualification I should note.--Patrick 18:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:MoS#Chronological_items supports BQZip's assertion. --Ybbor 19:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 Done Where necessary.--Patrick 21:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 Not done Several instances still in the Academics section. Check in every use of a number. This will catch almost all of the claims. — BQZip01 — 18:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Section-by-section Review
Lede
  • "modern university" is a little vague (how modern is it now?). Please rephrase to use a term like "modernized" and rephrase in some way to indicate it was modern at that time-period.
 Done Changed to "branched university", and Healy's modernization was to reorganize the schools with common finances.--Patrick 00:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Use the title "University President" for the first usage of the school president to specify which "president" we are talking about (Clinton IS mentioned later in the article.
 Done--Patrick 22:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • wikilink undergraduate and graduate schools appropriately
Do you mean each school?--Patrick 22:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, no. I could have been a little more clear. Link "undergraduate" and "graduate." These terms are almost exclusively used in academia and their definitions may not be familiar with someone who doesn't understand them. — BQZip01 — 18:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 Done--Patrick 21:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "strong programs" is awkward and a little POV. Perhaps something else like "critically acclaimed"? Feel free to adjust the phrasing in a different way too.
 Done "national recognized"--Patrick 22:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "distinguished" is really vague. Maybe "notable" or something similar?
 Done Changed to "reputable"--Patrick 21:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "At the center of the main campus is Healy Hall, designated a National Historic Landmark." is really awkward. Try something else like "Healy Hall lies at the center of the main campus and is designated a National Historic Landmark."
 Done Changed to "The main campus is known for Healy Hall, designated a National Historic Landmark."--Patrick 21:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "have served"
 Done--Patrick 22:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Academically, Georgetown". Consider rephrasing. This seems more of an administrative separation than an academic separation. It could easily be more generalized by replacing with "The university..." or "Academic programs at the university..."
  • I have no problem with the lede using citations, since it is an option, but I feel it detracts from the readability (you cram so many references into the beginning that it becomes harder to read than most of the rest of the text). Since Misplaced Pages recognizes that the entire lead should be expanded upon in the main text, references are not needed in the lede. With the volume of references you have in the lede, I recommend removing them to enhance readability and make a GREAT first impression.
 Done I left the first reference, because there was some dispute over the founding date.--Patrick 15:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Go ahead and remove this one as well since the dispute is already discussed in greater detail later in the article. Remove this particular phrase altogether or address it in the History section. That it is in another article does not alleviate the fact that it should be elaborated upon in this article. — BQZip01 — 18:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
History
  • "The first permanent Jesuit settlement in Maryland was established in 1634, but it was not until after the American Revolution that a lasting Catholic institution could be achieved." Another example of passive voice. Who established the settlement? Why does the history date back to 1634? Was there talk of adding the school then?
 DonePassive voice fixed. further details clarified in History article. Amerique 23:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "To further this goal, in January 1789 John Carroll obtained the property on which Georgetown University and Georgetown Visitation are were built in January 1789."
 Done Amerique 23:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Instruction there at the institution began on 22 November 1791 with a future Congressman, William Gaston, as the its first student."
 Done Amerique 23:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Because of the lack of state or religious support,..." uh, if it is a Jesuit school, how does it not have religious support?
It mentions and links to the supression of the Jesuits in the next sentence. Simply, no money for it came from Rome.--Patrick 18:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 Done Amerique 23:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown College suffered from financial strain in its early years." How so?
 Done I believe this does not need to be made clearer in keeping with summary style. Amerique 23:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 Not done I believe that a little more detail (such as "lack of incoming funds" "lack of student enrollment" "embezzlement" etc would add much more clarity to this short and vague sentence. — BQZip01 — 18:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
How does this sound: Due to a lack of support from both church and state in its early years, Georgetown College suffered from considerable financial strain. Amerique 19:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Close. Due to a lack of monetary and political support from both church and state (specify which church and which state. The federal government? Virginia? The Vatican? The Roman-Catholic Church? The local bishops? Other local churches?) in its early years, Georgetown College suffered from considerable financial strain. — BQZip01 — 21:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, taking your comments into account, this is what I came up with: Due to a lack of support from the Catholic church in its early years, Georgetown College suffered from considerable financial strain. Basically specifying the Catholic church and, as DC was never a state, removing the "state" reference. Getting a federal charter was something of a bonus, but why they were not supported by the church should be obvious from the rest of the paragraph, given the supression against Jesuits at the time. Best Regards, Amerique 21:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 Done I found in the bulletin where it talked about how Georgetown was funded, so I've change the sentence to: "In its early years, Georgetown College suffered from considerable financial strain, relying on private sources of funding and the limited profits from local Jesuit-owned lands."--Patrick 00:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The school was bolstered in 1805 when the Maryland Society of Jesus was restored, and in 1815 when Georgetown received a university charter." What is the Maryland Society of Jesus? How is it important to this school? Explicitly state that they were not Georgetown University originally and became so later. Something like "The school was originally named..."
 Done Correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't believe there was a name change per se, the legal entity of the BoD simply became incorporated as Georgetown's controlling agency, over whatever governance system existed previously. Amerique 23:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The school was the first to receive a charter from the United States Congress, where it was incorporated as The President and Directors of Georgetown College." When? Is this the title of the school or the board of directors. I'm pretty sure it doesn't need to be italicized.
 Done incorporation was mandated in the charter. Amerique 23:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The college's first two graduates were awarded the degree of bachelor of arts two years later." Again, what year is this in reference to?
 Done Amerique 23:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The school was greatly affected during the U.S. Civil War, when many students left to enlist." How exactly was it affected. A lack of enrollment? Grades slipped? It lost its accreditation? What?
Huh? Is many students leaving not enough to affect a school? Certainly a military takeover of the campus, as noted in the next sentence, caused a great affect, no?--Patrick 20:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 Done Amerique 00:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The Union Army commandeered several university buildings, and by the time of President Abraham Lincoln's May 1861 visit to campus, 1,400 troops were stationed in temporary quarters there."
 Done I don't see an issue here. Amerique 00:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Only seven students graduated in 1869, down from over 300 a decade prior." Awkward, short sentence. Possibly put with the first sentence of the paragraph.
 Done Set up a referent. Amerique 00:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Subsequently these colors were adopted as the official school colors." Again passive voice. Who adopted the colors? Be more affirmative. "Subsequently, the school adopted these as its school colors..." or something like that.
 Done Amerique 00:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The school did not recover from the war until the presidency of the Patrick Francis Healy (1874–1881)." What exactly didn't recover? Enrollment? Academic standards? etc?
 Done Amerique 00:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "In response to the need for alternatives open to Catholic students, a Medical School was founded in 1851, and a Law Department in 1870." Kind jumping around on dates here. Were other alternatives not open to Catholic students? Was there some kind of anti-Catholic sentiment in the country (it seems to imply that)?
  • "The undergraduate School of Nursing was founded in 1903. In 1999, it added three other health related majors and appended "Health Studies" to its name to become the School of Nursing and Health Studies." Combine these sentences. The redundant use of Health Studies is awkward; rephrase. Again, it feels like it jumps around a lot.
 Done--Patrick 21:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The School of Foreign Service (SFS) was founded in 1919 by Edmund A. Walsh, in response to the need for institutions to train American youth for leadership in foreign commerce and diplomacy." Whose need? Was this a Catholic mandate? A US shortage? etc?
 Done Change "in response..." to: "to prepare students for leadership in foreign commerce and diplomacy"--Patrick 00:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The School of Business Administration was created out of the SFS in 1955. It was and, in 1999, was renamed for Robert E. McDonough in 1999 to become the McDonough School of Business in honor of alumnus Robert E. McDonough.
 Done--Patrick 18:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Female students have been admitted to the School of Nursing since its founding, and most of the university was made available on a limited basis by 1952." Another example of awkward passive voice. "Since its founding the school admitted female students into the School of Nursing..."
 Done--Patrick 18:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "With the College of Arts and Sciences welcoming its first female students in the 1969-1970 academic year, Georgetown became fully coeducational."
Right, should something be changed here?--Patrick 02:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
LOL. Yes. The date should be connected with an endash, not a hyphen. Guess I missed that. Oh well, I guess we're all human. — BQZip01 — 19:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 Done--Patrick 22:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown ended its bicentennial year of 1989 electing Leo J. O'Donovan as president." Why is the "bicentennial year" of any importance? This sentence could easily be incorporated into the next.
 Done The bicentennial was an important event, and many projects on campus were completed, or in the case of the Third Century Campaign, begun with it in mind, so I note it.--Patrick 22:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "In December 2003, Georgetown completed its Third Century Campaign, joining only a handful of universities worldwide to raise at least $1 billion for financial aid, academic chair endowment, and new capital projects." Is this a University campaign to raise money? Do all universities have this campaign? Only those over 200 years old? Please state explicitly what the Campaign is.
 Done--Patrick 22:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Since 2001, Georgetown has been led by its first non-Jesuit president, John J. DeGioia, who has sought to internationalize the Georgetown name." Again WAY too much passive voice. Be more direct: "John...currently leads the school and seeks to internationalize..." how does he plan to "internationalize the Georgetown name"? This sounds POV or a little like an advertisement...or maybe even a direct quote.
 Done His biography is fairly mundane, and it may be early to judge his effect on the school. It now uses a direct quote: sought to "expand opportunities for intercultural and interreligious dialogue."--Patrick 22:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Academics
  • I'm not sure you need "full-time and part time". I mean, they are students, right? Unless they somehow count less in the total number of students or there is some other distinguishing reason, I see no need to include that information (especially since you don't seem to say how many there are of each).
 Done--Patrick 00:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Are the numbers at the Law School and Medical Center included in the number of graduate students? As a layman, it seems to me that they should be (maybe even they are are already) included in those numbers, but I could be wrong.
  • Wikilink the first instance of Bachelor's.
 Done--Patrick 00:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I think the appropriate terminology for these programs are "undergraduate and graduate programs" and "Bachelor's and Master's degrees" I would be hesitant to mix programs with the degrees. This is really more of a quibble with terminology and I'd just like to make sure the terms are used correctly. Please address here if I am wrong (this is a comment and should NOT hold up the nomination in any way!!!)
  • In the profile section, combine the first and second paragraphs and move the mentioning of the Qatar campus to the end of the new paragraph where you talk about international studies. In addition, make all the numbers in the paragraph in numeral form, not spelled out (while it certainly is acceptable to spell them out, mixing the different usages in the paragraph seems sloppy, IMHO).
  • "Georgetown University puts a priority on study abroad programs, and 58.7% of the undergraduate student body does study abroad." Eliminate redundant phrasing. How exactly do they "put a priority" on it? Maybe something like "The university emphasizes a well-rounded education (get a reference) and offers many opportunities to study at different schools worldwide. As of 2007, these study abroad programs are used by 58.7% of the students at Georgetown University..." or something like that.
 Done--Patrick 01:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "All majors in the College are open as minors to students in the College, in the School of Nursing and Health Studies, and in the School of Business." Again, redundant use of a word. Can the students in the school of foreign service also get minors? If not, please briefly explain why. If so, then just state all "undergraduate programs"
 Done SFS do their own "certificates," and not departmental "minors."--Patrick 00:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Again in the faculty section, I see no need to differentiate between full-time and part-time.
I think that's an important distinction. If you're at a college where almost all professors are part-time, then it would be very different from one that had only full time professors.--Patrick 18:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The current faculty includes minds..." I assume the rest of their body is there as well, or is this a metaphysical thing. In all seriousness, it seems a little flowery for an encyclopedia. Perhaps, "Current distinguished faculty include..."
I tried to break the faculty into sentences by their other professions, with the 3 thinkers together. I've changed "minds" to "scholars"--Patrick 00:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Many former politicians choose to teach at Georgetown, including U.S. Agency for International Development administrator Andrew Natsios, former National Security Advisor Anthony Lake, former U.S. Senator and Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle, former Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith, and former CIA director George Tenet. Internationally, the school attracts numerous former ambassadors and heads of state, such as former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, former Ambassador-at-Large Robert Gallucci, former President of the Government of Spain José María Aznar, and former President of Poland Aleksander Kwaśniewski." Eliminate significant redundant use of "former." You already state that they are former XXXs. There is no need to highlight it in such a manner.
 Done--Patrick 00:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Make sure you quote things exactly: ""student-centered research university". Check your reference, they have it hyphenated correctly.
 Done--Patrick 00:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Again with the numbers of items in its holdings, please put a date to clarify when this number is accurate (I'm sure this one varies day-by-day).
 Done--Patrick 00:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Separately, the Law School campus includes the nation's fifth largest law library." Uh, is this separate from the already stated holdings or by itself it is the 5th largest? Ambiguous phrasing here makes this unclear.
 Done Changed to "Additionally"--Patrick 22:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "...the Georgetown Law Journal and Law Weekly..." awkward phrasing in a list. Please separate "Law Weekly" by commas.
 Done--Patrick 20:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "most preferred" should be "most-preferred".
 Done--Patrick 00:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Don't mix numeral usage within the same paragraph. All of the percentages should be the same, IMHO.
I learned to spell out two word numbers, so I left percentages with decimals and larger number as numerals.--Patrick 00:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Again, this is In My Humble Opinion. As long as it complies with WP:MoS, I have no problem with it and it is merely a suggestion to improve the article, not a requirement for FA status.
  • "A majority of those admitted (57%)..." Why use parenthesis now? Integrate the figure into the prose. Possibly something like, "Of those admitted, 57% were..." or eliminate the figure altogether (I don't think it is necessary to prove your point. The reference backs up the claim).
  • "The forty-one percent of applicants admitted..." Really awkward phrasing. redo please. Perhaps, "Of the XXXX applicants, 41% are accepted and their scores range..."
 Done I've made them 2 sentences--Patrick 00:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Campuses (To be completed in the near future)
  • For starters, rename this section altogether. It is not just the campuses, but also additional facilities of the school.
"Campuses" is in line with Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Universities#Structure and other university articles. I think its a broad term that encompasses the facilities. On the other hand, would the heading "facilities" cover the quadrangles and architectural layout?--Patrick 22:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I think it would cover the quadrangles and architecture as well. I just think "Campuses" is a little vague when we are talking about individual structures and other facilities. It is up to you. I won't oppose on this alone. — BQZip01 — 19:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown University has three campuses in Washington D.C.: the undergraduate campus and the medical school campus, together comprising the main campus, and the Law Center campus. Each is located in Washington, D.C"
 Done--Patrick 23:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Outside North America, Georgetown operates a facility in Doha, Qatar a Qatar campus, located in the city of Doha, and villas in the Alanya, Turkey and Fiesole, ItalyTurkish city of Alanya and the Italian city of Fiesole." I am pretty sure the Education City campus is officially owned by the Emir of Qatar.
 Done Ok.--Patrick 23:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "In their layout, Georgetown's administrators have consistently used the traditional quadrangle design on their campuses."
 Done--Patrick 23:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Wikilink high school for those who don't know what it is (i.e. our Australian and British English-speaking bretheren)
 Done--Patrick 23:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • 100 acres is more akin to square kilometers than square meters.
 Done--Patrick 23:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "...is the architectural gem of Georgetown's campus, and is listed on the National Register of Historic Places." "architectural gem" is a bit POV. Try to neutralize the terminology a bit.
  • "In late 2003, the school completed the Southwest Quadrangle Project was completed. This project and brought a new 907-bed student dorm, an expansive dining hall, an underground parking facility, and new Jesuit Residence to the campus." Please watch the passive voice (again).
 Done--Patrick 23:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Hyphenate "Seljuq era"
 Done--Patrick 23:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The school is located in the town of Alanya, Turkey within the Seljuq era Alanya Castle. , which is built on a peninsula into the Mediterranean Sea." I'm sure it is a pretty site and all, but it doesn't really provide any useful information. If there were a picture to be used here, this would be PERFECT for the caption. Why not use the picture on the page of the castle? In the castle article, I would also include a sentence or two about Georgetown since it doesn't appear there at all.
 Done Despite living there, I have few good shots that show the McGhee Center. Is "on the Mediterranean Sea" appropriate?--Patrick 23:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "In 2002 the Qatar Foundation for Education, Science and Community Development presented the School of Foreign Service with the resources and space to open a facility campus in the new Education City in within the city limits of Doha, Qatar." I hardly think a single building comprises a campus, though Education City is a campus by itself. On a lighter note, WOW, did you end up with the most difficult guy reviewing your article. There's probably only a handful of people on the English Misplaced Pages who have actually been there and I am the first to heavily review this article. Talk about bad luck... :-)
 Done I should note that the official website] refers to it as a campus, but, yes, you are particular about this. Since I'm not, I've changed it.--Patrick 23:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
In response, I think they simply use the generic term "campus". They are actually in the same single building with 4 other schools. It seems enough for me though. — BQZip01 — 20:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Student life
  • "The Georgetown undergraduate student body is composed of almost entirely out of state students." Hyphenate "out of state"...on second thought, the term seems wrong since the school is in a Federal District, not a state. Please address accordingly.
Changed to say they live out of the district
  • "As of XXXX, In terms of the racial diversity of the undergraduate student body was, they are 64.9% white, 9.1% Asian, 6.7% black, and 5.8% Hispanic.; Additionally, 53.9% of those students are were females."
 Done--Patrick 22:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "imam with around four-hundred Muslims on campus" Were they also the first to have 400 muslims on campus? If not, I suggest rephrasing to "...imam in order to serve the approximately 400 Muslim students, staff, and faculty on campus."
 Done--Patrick 22:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • The percentage that are sexually active seems incredibly trivial unless it is far higher/lower than the national/regional averages. If this is so, please state it. Otherwise, just delete it. I would also contend that the survey showed not suggests.
I suppose I added this to offset my statement that Georgetown students are "religious and volunteer minded."--Patrick 22:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Almost all undergraduates attend full-time." Really short sentence that could be incorporated into another sentence and it doesn't seem to fit well in a paragraph about the places students live.
  • "A minority live off-campus in the surrounding neighborhoods—Georgetown to the east and Burleith to the north—and a few reside farther away." Kind of awkward. Why not simply say "The remainder live off-campus, mostly in the Georgetown and Burleith neghborhoods."?
 Done--Patrick 22:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown University has 172 registered student organizations that cover a variety of interests: student government, club sports, organizations focused on media and publications, performing arts, religion, and volunteer and service."
 Done--Patrick 22:28, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Students often find their interests at the Student Activities Commission Club Fair, where both official and unofficial organizations set up tables." Seems a little informal. Rephrase.
  • "The Georgetown University Student Association (GUSA) (acronym not used anywhere else) is the student government organization for undergraduates." Is there one for the graduate students?
 Done--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "There are also student representatives within the schools, to the Board of Directors, and, since 1996, to the Georgetown Advisory Neighborhood Commission."
“ New Student Orientation is the sponsored student organization responsible for planning and executing the annual orientation and pre-orientation of freshmen and transfers students." ”
 Done--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown's Army ROTC unit, the Hoya Battalion, is the oldest military unit in the District of Columbia." I think the Marines might have a problem with that definition since they actually predate the United States. That said, I think the Hoya Battalion is certainly worth mentioning. How about something like "...the Hoya Battalion, has its roots in the American Revolution and continues to exude those military traditions and dedication to service."?
 Done They are the oldest native to DC. Marines are from Tun Tavern.--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown's student organizations include one of the nation's oldest debating clubs, the Philodemic Society, and the oldest running dramatic society in the United States, the Mask & Bauble Society." remove redundant/incorrect terminology
The Philodemic (1830) isn't the oldest, the Jefferson Literary and Debating Society at UVA claims 1825. Georgetown comes in 2nd.--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Other a capella groups on campus include the co-ed Phantoms, the all-female GraceNotes, the all-female international group Harmony, Superfood, and the service-focused Georgetown Saxatones. The D.C. A cappella Festival has been held on Georgetown's campus since inception in 1990." wikilink a capella and use appropriate capitalization the same way for this term. Is the all-female group named "Harmony, Superfood"? If not, please explain what Superfood is.
I added that Superfood is co-ed.--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "...and, since 1987, has is published twice semi-weekly."
  • "...known for its weekly cover storyies, is a news <add space here> magazine which split with from The Hoya to focus more attention on citywide and national issues in addition to news on campus." I assume the Hoya already does the last part, so it isn't focusing "more" on something it covers less. Again, English does not always lend itself to accuracy...(note I am blaming the English language mostly here, not the authors/editors).
 Done--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The Georgetown Independent is a monthly "journal of news, commentary and the arts" published monthly." Otherwise, you need to cite your quote at the end of the quote. This allows the citation to not be duplicated.
 Done--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "WGTB, Georgetown's radio station, is available primarily over the internet." Is it available anywhere else? Please explain "primarily". Didn't they get rid of their actual broadcasting capabilities?
 Done There's a leaky cable system that makes it available in some older dorms.--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "...because of WGTB's political orientation." Huh? Please elaborate. This seems a little vague. A Democrat ran it and a Republican didn't like it or something like that?
 Done The radio station was practically anarchist, and did try to burn down the clocktower in 1972. This is noted on their own article. I'm trying to be NPOV.--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Take Back the Night is an organization of women and men oriented (as opposed to an organization of chimpanzees?) against gender violence which coordinates a yearly rally and march to protest against rape and other forms of violence against women."
 Done Men and women denotes that its a co-ed group.--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown Solidarity Committee is a workers' rights organization whose successes include ending use of sweatshops in producing Georgetown-logoed apparel, and pay raises for both university cleaning staff and police."
 Done--Patrick 22:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown has many additional groups representing national, ethnic, and linguistic interests."
 Done--Patrick 22:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "In 2006, MEChA (is this an acronym of some kind? If so please spell it out) de Georgetown, which works to improve Chicano recruitment and involvement (it seems to me the stated accomplishment doesn't fit their mission statement), brought together a broad coalition of groups as "GU Students United Against Racism" to protest a paid speaking event by Chris Simcox, leader of the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps." Why did they protest? maybe add "perceived racism"?
Added "perceived racism."--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown's student body is particularly active in politics; groups based on local, national, and international issues are popular, and free speech is generally respected." Respected? How so? Didn't the aforementioned group block someone from speaking?
  • "While not supported financially by the school', as their its stated positions on abortion is are in opposition to the school's, the organization is permitted to meet and table (is "table" actually a verb?" in university spaces.
 Done OED says so.--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Besides the full-day carnival,..."
 Done--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Halloween is always celebrated with viewings of alumnus William Peter Blatty's film The Exorcist." I assume there are some people that don't attend.
 Done--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Homecoming coincides with a home football game. Festivities such as tailgating and a formal dance are sponsored by the Alumni Association, and draw past graduates back to campus." "Homecoming" doesn't need to be italicized. Combine these two sentences.
 Done--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The largest planned sports-related celebration is the first basketball practice of the season. Dubbed Midnight Madness, this event introduces the basketball team..."
 Done--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "These speakers are frequently important scholars, and authors, heads of state, U.S. politicians, and religious leaders.
 Done--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Many heads of state visit Georgetown while in the capital." Really awkward sentence that doesn't flow with the rest of the paragraph. I recommend deleting it or incorporating it elsewhere
 Done--Patrick 21:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Jesuits
  • "Georgetown University was founded by Jesuits..." Again, please try and rephrase to avoid passive voice.
  • "...and presents itself as an institution grounded in the tradition of Ignatius of Loyola."
 Done--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Although president John J. DeGioia is not a Jesuit, five of the <insert how many total members there are here; if it is all of them, state so> members of Georgetown's Board of Directors are Jesuits."
 Done--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Most of these Jesuits live in the Wolfington Hall Jesuit Residence on the main campus, though some serve as chaplains-in-residences."
 Done--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "In addition, these Jesuits often are employed..."
 Done--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The role that its Jesuit and Catholic heritage has played in Georgetown University's polices has been at times controversial at times."
 Done--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Stores located in Georgetown University-owned buildings are not allowed to sell or distribute birth control methods."
 Done--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Similarly, Georgetown University Hospital operates under the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Services, which prevents prohibits' abortions from being performed on the premises,but The hospital does however does perform research using stem cells from aborted fetuses.
 Done--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • In 2007, the Georgetown University Law Center sparked protests following the university's decision to cease funding for a student's internship at Planned Parenthood's litigation department, EJF, despite funding it the previous year."Did the law center spark protests, or did its decision? Or was it the university's decision? What does EJF stand for?
Changed to say that the students protested. EJF, on further reading is the organization that runs the internship, not the litigation department.--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Between 1996 and 1999 crucifixes were hung in many university classrooms, attracting national controversy attention."
 Done--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "At that point crucifixes were hung in hospital and historic classrooms only." At what point? 1996? 1999? Before? After?
 Done Before 1996.--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Pressure to remove the crucifixes came comes however from within the Catholic community, while but campus leaders of other faiths have defended them the decision."
The thing is that pressure still comes, and the issue is openly discussed in editorials. Secondly, this is according to the Imam, who is interviewed in the reference regarding his support, and he says it in the present tense.--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Since you aren't quoting the imam, you can say that it was said in the past. It may still be openly discussed, but your reference is to the past. You could simply add a sentence at the end stating that the controversy is not resolved at this time. — BQZip01 — 19:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Some of these crucifixes are historic works of art, and are noted as such." Wait a minute. What happened? Was the controversy resolved? Please don't mix verb tenses within paragraphs if at all possible.
I moved this sentence earlier, does it make more sense now?--Patrick 22:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Athletics (To be added in the near future)
  • "Georgetown fields twenty-seven varsity sports teams and twenty club sports teams." Sports is redundant here
 Done--Patrick 22:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown teams participate in the NCAA's Division I." Not the club teams. Please fix
 Done--Patrick 22:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The school competes in the Big East Conference in virtually every NCAA sport, though the football team competes in the Division I FCS Patriot League, the men's lacrosse team in Eastern College Athletic Conference, and the rowing teams in the Eastern Association of Rowing Colleges." I truly doubt they participate in almost every NCAA sport. Rephrase to "...for almost all of their NCAA-sanctioned teams..." or something like it.
 Done--Patrick 22:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "With 146 athletes receiving aid, Georgetown University graduates over ninety percent of its student athletes." What does aid have to do with graduation rates. While both are certainly facts, one does not lead to the other.
 Done--Patrick 22:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown's athletics program has been listed among the twenty best in the nation." Who listed it? Again, get rid of the passive voice. "CNNSI listed Georgetown's athletics program..."
 Done--Patrick 22:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The name was picked up in the local dailies publications, and became official shortly afterwards."
 Done--Patrick 22:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The men's basketball team is of particular note as it' won the NCAA championship in 1984 under coach John Thompson and continues to be a perennial favorite in the NCAA tournament. The current coach, John Thompson III,..." Is his son really the Third? Why not the second?
John Thompson is John Thompson Jr., but few publications, Misplaced Pages included, call him this. His son, however, almost always is name with the suffix, and indeed is known on campus as simply "JTIII".--Patrick 22:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "The team leads the Big East with seven in conference tournament titles and has made twenty-four NCAA tournament appearances."
 Done--Patrick 22:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Besides basketball, Georgetown is known as a national powerhouse in rowing, sailing, lacrosse, and track and field." known to who? Powerhouse is a bit POV. Try to tone it down a little.
I've made it say "nationally successful."--Patrick 22:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Alumni
  • "With 97,384 living alumni, and 3,046 listed in Marquis Who's Who publications, Georgetown alumni are nationally in the top fifteen among the most notable nation-wide." Quantifying the top 15 seems a bit POV. I mean, some people are notable to some people. Others aren't. Saying they are among the top few leaves some ambiguity to the claim and room for the reader to determine who is notable and who isn't.
But that's the idea of Marquis Who's Who, which is an unbiased arbitrator of notability. It's a fact to say that 3 thousand alumni are noted in the book, which is the 14th most of US colleges.--Patrick 20:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, that justification makes sense. I see your point. — BQZip01 — 21:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "In Congress, five alumni serve in the Senate, and sixteen in the House of Representatives." Which Congress? the US Congress? This should be explicitly spelled out.
 Done--Patrick 21:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Besides numerous members of the senior diplomatic corps, many heads of state are alumni, including former U.S. President Bill Clinton, are alumni."
 Done--Patrick 21:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "In law the legal realm of America (feel free to replace this with something else), alumni include a current Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, Antonin Scalia, and a former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Edward Douglass White."
 Done--Patrick 21:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Of medium-sized schools, Georgetown produces more Peace Corps volunteers than any other private university." What are medium-sized schools?
 Done--Patrick 21:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "Georgetown graduates have served at the head of diverse institutions, both in the public and private sector, and have headed military organizations on both the national and international level." Really vague claim with no examples to back it up.
We used to have lots of examples, but the GA review complained about this, and it was shortened drastically. I do have a reference to Georgetown's own page where they list some notables, and there is the subpage, List of notable Georgetown University alumni, that goes into extreme detail.--Patrick 21:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Just give an example or two. The Texas A&M University page also has an extensive list and we had to pare it down significantly too, so I feel your pain there. — BQZip01 — 19:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The review is now complete, though I reserve the right to add to it should additional changes be necessary. In order to give everyone time to address the given issues, I will re-visit this page in a couple of days and mark off those that are addressed and adjust any other comments accordingly. If anyone would be so kind, I would also appreciate a review of the Aggie Bonfire page as it is also a Featured Article candidate. — BQZip01 — 21:00, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support This article has been on my watchlist for some time, though I have made few edits to it. I'm impressed with what Patrick has done with the article. This is a well-written article, comprehensive, with good references, excellent images, and other qualities that should make this a featured article. --Aude (talk) 01:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
The Hoya is the only publication whose sole concentration is Georgetown University. 40 references (out of 154) make use of this twice weekly journal of campus news, and while that number might be reduced, to reject it, a newspaper with nearly a century of coverage of the article's topic, as a legitimate source would cripple the article. The other two student run papers, The Georgetown Voice and the Georgetown Independent are also cited, and if Misplaced Pages were to reject student publications, then many articles, including many of those that are featured, would loose verifiability and might be reduced to only what national publications have said about them. As it is, many university pages have become FAs while citing student papers, so clearly the fault is not just that the are non-professional. Professionalism does not equal veracity, and I have no plans to cite from The New York Post or The National Enquirer despite their ability to pay employees. The Hoya is a paper that has a selective process for choosing journalists and like Misplaced Pages has strict standards and practices for their articles. If there is agreement that the paper is a legitimate source, then I don't see why it would matter if 4 articles or 40 articles are cited. Nevertheless, check the article tomorrow, and I will have strived to reduce its reliance on this news outlet.--Patrick 14:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I find this a somewhat unreasonable oppose. Only 114 sources that are not the campus paper? To quote from WP:RS: "Reliable sources are authors or publications regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. Reliable publications are those with an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight. The reliability of a source depends on the context: A world-renowned mathematician may not be a reliable source about biology." A college's main newspaper passes that threshold for its coverage of the college in question. Now, if a college paper were being used to source controversial claims that would be one matter, but I don't see any evidence that this is the case. It's mostly being used to source details and pretty non-controversial points. Requiring the author to remove sources and content is the opposite of what the FA process should accomplish. Also, please note that academic and professional historians use campus newspapers when writing histories of universities, which you can easily verify by consulting the bibliography of any campus history. If there are specific points that you feel are too controversial to be sourced to a campus paper, please let us know -- I'd be happy to help Patrick search for additional verification -- but as it stands I'd ask you to reconsider. --JayHenry 16:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Concur with the above two posters: this is not a reasonable objection. This is wikipedia, not an academic or professional paper (which may require such standards). If you can find something in the WP:MoS or other guideline that states otherwise, I would like to see it. IAW WP:V
"The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."
Unless you are claiming that The Hoya is not a reliable source, then your argument holds no water. — BQZip01 —  21:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I also find this an unreasonable objection. Georgetown is a highly reputable and prestigious university. Accordingly, The Hoya has a reputation for quality, reliability, and good/detailed coverage of the topic on hand. I have no problem with The Hoya used as a source. It's definitely not the only source, with numerous other reliable sources cited. --Aude (talk) 05:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose, 1c and 2. Please remove the tally, FAC is not a vote. Publishers are not identified, footnotes are correctly formatted, so reliability of sources can't be identified. See WP:CITE/ES; all sources need a publisher, last accessdate on websources, and author and publication date when available. And please don't clutter my comments with obnoxious green check marks, or I'll keep looking. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I removed the tally. I hope that your opposition doesn't have to do with it or checkmarks. Can you be more specific about which references? I don't understand, did you mean to say they aren't correctly formatted? With the cite web template, the "work" tag is used most often, are you asking us to use the "publisher" tag instead? I found one reference, a book, without a date, and fixed it, but I don't see any websites that lack a work tag or accessdate. Not all websites have listed authors, but I didn't think that was expected. But why is a threat that you'll keep looking? I nominated the article so other people might take a closer look, not because I wanted it to slip through unchanged. I liked the tally because it was something flashy that might get people to look at the article and give an opinion.--Patrick 03:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
It was a reference to pointy things elsewhere; not here. No, it's not a matter of whether you use work or publisher, but that you use at least one of them. Here are some examples of sources that need attention—samples only picked randomly from the middle of the article:
  • HOYA Battalion and the Washington Consortium (2005). Retrieved on March 2, 2007. (has no publisher identified)
  • Extracurriculars. US News & World Report (2007). Retrieved on July 11, 2007. (Give full title of article on examples like this to make it easier to find if the link is dead years from now)
  • Sucharov, Mira (July 1, 2005). Finding an Apartment. Retrieved on July 10, 2007. (no publisher)
  • Frequently Asked Questions. On-Campus Housing (January 10, 2007). Retrieved on August 2, 2007. (It looks like you've identified the title under the work parameter, but have given no publisher.)
That should be enough to give you an idea; pls ping me if you need further info. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. I've worked on these references for the better part of a year. I am disappointed they don't meet your standards. The cite web template has both work and publisher under "Optional Parameters", the descriptions are "work: If this item is part of a larger work, name of that work" and "publisher: Publisher, if any". Since the article references some website that are not part of a larger work, nor have publishers, those are, per instructions, not listed. I can list "Georgetown University Law Center" as the publisher for the "Frequently Asked Questions" reference, but I feel a little like I'm making that up. This might also be misleading, as "Georgetown University Law Center" would be better listed as a publisher of items such the "Georgetown Law Weekly" while the On-Campus Housing office is responsible for their own portion of the Law Center website. For example, the "Finding an Apartment" page was a personal website that described the situation. It was hosted on Georgetown's site, but if it was on Geocites, would I list them as publisher? I mean are featured articles not allowed to reference webpages without listable publishers? Is that really what the 1c is referring to? Is it not possible to find such a FA that uses a reference without a listable publisher? Perhaps I could find one that you, in your position as queen of the FAC page, supported. You have opposed the critical style that, for example, BQZip01 use to judge my article, but that has been so useful in advancing it and understanding his opposition to the candidacy. With your opposition, I find it difficult to comprehend.--Patrick 17:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, Patrick, review your image captions per WP:MOS; captions that are full sentences need to end in a period, while those that are sentence fragments do not. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
This is done, per your request, no checkmark.--Patrick 17:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Patrick, put the tally back up if you want to. There is no reason people have to read through all this text to find out how many people oppose it and how many people support it. It is a summary NOT FRIGGIN' VOTE RESULTS, SANDY!!! — BQZip01 —  07:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)