Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance

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It is presumed that Rus' rulers (Alexander Nevsky, King Danylo) are not part of Europe? --Ghirla 20:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

So the Mongols are Christians now? What happened to them being Pagan and eventually integrating into the societies they had conquered?

All the information I have learned about the Mongols is contrary to what this article states - true or not. With the Mongols being the bane of the entire civilized world, and being savage Pagan barbarians. So when did they all of a sudden become Christian? And why aren't their decedents Christian today? Why is it that there are so many apparently Muslim Mongols in the present? Were the Mongols not a completely free society based on the Pagan-Shamanistic religion, which they retain to some extent today?

All the sources used to develop this article seem to be either from a single source or is derived from a modern individual's "Theory".

Whereas historical fact (which this article seems to lack), are sourced from multiple historical commentators who lived in the general time period after which the event occurred. These commentators usually are from multiple geographic locations and/or multiple languages/civilizations.

This article needs a complete review for facts by the editors. Placing theory as fact is absurd, especially modern theory without proper verification and endorsement by the relevant historical international institutes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.239.108.76 (talk) 04:57, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

All facts, letters, and references are genuine. And at the time many of the Mongols were Nestorian Christians (since about the 6th century). PHG 05:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

No, many of the references are not genuine (see my concerns about the Templar sources below). However, I will confirm that there were some high-ranking Mongols who were Nestorian Christians. In 1260, Hulegu's chief lieutenant in Syria, General Kitbuga, was Christian. When Damascus fell, three of the conquering princes, Bohemond, Hethoum, and Kitbuga were Christian. The head Mongol at the time, Hulegu (grandson of Genghis Khan) was not. I do, however, agree with the above anon that this entire article needs to be re-checked for accuracy. --El on ka 18:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

I have some strong concerns about the sources for Templar information in this article. Please be aware that there's a *lot* of pseudohistory and wishful thinking where the Templars are concerned. On the other hand, there are also many reliable books and articles that can be used, so any website information should be taken with a large grain of salt. I'll see what I can do to help out with this article, but to my knowledge, the Templars really didn't have much to do with the Mongols. They were pretty thoroughly stomped by the Mameluks in 1291, were beaten back from Acre, to Tortosa, to Ruad Island and all the way back to Cyprus. The Templars tried to regroup to launch another attack on the Holy Land, but could never even hold a coastal city such as Tortosa, let alone advancing as far as Jerusalem. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a few roving Templars may have joined a Mongol force somewhere, but I'd be reluctant to call that a major alliance. --El on ka 18:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The Crusades Through Arab Eyes

Transcribing factoids:

p. 253: The fortress of Marqab was held by the Knights Hospitallers, called al-osbitar by the Arabs. "These monk-knigts had supported the Mongols wholeheartedly, going so far as to fight alongside them during a fresh attempted invasion in 1281."
p. 254: Arghun, grandon of Hulegu, "had resurrected the most cherished dream of his predecessors: to form an alliance with the Occidentals and thus to trap the Mamluk sultanate in a pincer movement. Regular contacts were established between Tabriz and Rome with a view to organizing a joint expedition, or at least a concerted one."
p. 256: Qalawun decided to renew the truce at Acre for another ten years from July 1989. "The Palestinian port became the scene of intense activity. Damascene merchants flocked there by the hundreds, renting rooms in the inns near the souks and engaging in profitable transactions with the Venetian traders or the rich Templars, who had now become the principal bankers of Syria."

--El on ka 21:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The Trial of the Templars

By Malcolm Barber. This is from the 2nd edition, page 22, about the activities/whereabouts of Jacques de Molay in 1299/1300:

"In Cyprus tensions clearly remained, for in 1299 Boniface VIII felt obliged to tell Molay to resolve the Order's quarrels with the king. This seems to have had some effect, for in the summer of the following year, the king and the military orders cooperated to equip a fleet of 16 Maraclea. More ambitiously, in November, 1300, James of Molay and the king's brother, Amaury of Lusignan, attempted to occupy the former Templar stronghold of Tortosa. A force of 600 men, of which the Templars supplied about 150, failed to establish itself in the town itself, although they were able to leave a garrison of 120 men on the island of Ruad, just off the coast. The aim was to link up with Ghazan, the Mongol Il-Khan of Persia, who had invited the Cypriots to participate in joint operations against the Mamluks, but it does appear that this was intended as a step in a more long-term project in that, in November 1301, Boniface VIII granted the island to the Order. The plan failed for, following a very severe winter, in mid-1302, the Mamluks forced the defenders to surrender, enslaving the Templars and beheading the Syrian footsoldiers. Nearly 40 of these men were still in prison in Cairo years later where, according to a former fellow prisoner, the Genoese Matthew Zaccaria, they died of starvation, having refused an offer of 'many riches and goods' in return for apostasising. This capitulation certainly infuenced Molay's thinking, since he later vehemently dismissed proposals for a small-scale expedition preliminary to a more general crusade, but it also emphasised that, although they had men and weapons, the Templars had not yet succeeded in building up their naval capacity even though it was becoming increasingly important. The Templar of Tyre says that the Templars were unable to defend the island because they had no galleys, only tarides (transports), and indeed, there is no evidence to suggest that the Order could assemble more than 10 galleys at any given time during the post-1291 period."

--El on ka 21:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Sharan Newman: Real History Behind the Templars

p. 174, about Grand Master Thomas Berard: "...But these were all small matters compared to the long-dreaded arrival of the Mongols in the Near East. Under Genghis Khan, they had already conquered much of China and were now moving into the ancient Persian Empire. Tales of their cruelty flew like crows through the towns in their path. However, since they were considered "pagans" there was hope among the leaders of the Church that they could be brought into the Christian community and would join forces to liberate Jerusalem again. Franciscan missionaries were sent east as the Mongols drew near."
p. 231 (about Grand Master Jacques de Molay): "Jacques returned to Cyprus in late 1296 and stayed in the East for the next ten years. He conducted naval raids on Egypt and participated in another ill-fated expedition to Armenia around 1299, in which the last Templar holding in that kingdom was lost. By early 1306, Jacques was aware of the effect that all these losses were having on public opinion in the West. He was also embroiled in the politics of the kingdom of Cyprus, just as his predecessors had let themselves become involved in the feuds among the lords of the Latin kingdoms."

--El on ka 22:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

To PHG, Elonka, et al

Elonka asked me to comment here; I already mentioned to PHG that Grousset seemed like an odd choice. I can't speak to his authority on the Mongols and Central Asian history, but as a source for the crusades he is quaint and outdated. I knew of this article and PHG's additions elsewhere but I didn't realize this article had expanded so much, and that Grousset was being used so extensively on a FAC. I should say that I have not yet read the entire article. I will also say that the Frankish-Mongol alliance, and this period of the crusader states in general, are not really my area of "expertise", but here is what sprung to mind when Elonka asked for sources:

David Morgan, "The Mongols in Syria, 1260-1300" (in Crusade and Settlement, ed. Peter W. Edbury)

Jean Richard, "The Mongols and the Franks", Journal of Asian History 3 (1969) (and probably reprinted in one of his numerous Variorum Reprints collections)

Claude Cahen]], "The Mongols and the Near East" in A History of the Crusades: Vol. II, The Later Crusades, 1189-1311, ed. R. L. Wolff and Harry W. Hazard (online

G.R. Hawting, Muslims, Mongols and Crusaders, which is relatively recent (2005) so I am not very familiar with the book or the author

I also found this bibliography online which has a lot more interesting leads.

Of course, for the Templars, Malcolm Barber is the best source, or any of the recent works by David Nicolle and Helen Nicholson too.

The references given in the article seem to be along the same lines as Grousset - Wallis Budge is old, and Steven Runciman is a great introduction but also rather outdated these days (though because he is so easy to read, I have also written many articles using him as a source, so I can't complain about that). I notice a translation of Riley-Smith's Atlas into French, that's odd; I assume PHG's first language is French though. If so, then Jean Richard has written more about this subject in French, so it would be good to look him up. I see Barber, Richard, Peter Jackson, and Sylvia Schein were also used, so that's good too.

The claim that Jacques de Molay recaptured Jerusalem in 1299 is, to be honest, entirely new to me. I had never heard of that before today! Has something been misread or mistranslated somewhere along the way? Or is this what Schein's article is about? It's definitely not true; after 1244, Christians were never in possession of Jerusalem again until 1917.

Hope this helps; as I said, I can give pointers on where to look but I am by no means an expert on this aspect of the crusades. Adam Bishop 03:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

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