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Archives

/Archive 1

Esposito

The guy is and has been since day one in the pockets of the Wahabi lobby. What I said is based on what Prince Alwaleed Bin Tala said as Esposito is just one of many Academic minions he finances and uses to promote Islam around the world.--CltFn 11:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks see your talk page for my response.PelleSmith 13:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

"We" are those who think Esposito isn't a reliable source. That includes me and, it seems, CltFn, but it also includes others, as you can see if you look at the talk pages for some of the Islam-related articles. Arrow740 16:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

"Thanks for the clearly logical response--the people who don't think he's unreliable dream of proving it." I don't think they're on the defensive yet, unfortunately. Arrow740 20:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah my mistake, I meant to write either "the people who don't think he's reliable" (as I had initially put it) or "the people who think he's unreliable" and managed to put both negatives in there completely altering the meaning of the sentence and in a confusing way I might add.PelleSmith 22:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Non-Muslim views of Islam

Hi Pelle and thanks for your message. I have also read with interest your comments on the Islam talk page. My current thinking is that a section on "Non-Muslim views" is going to be easier to write collaboratively in an NPOV way in this introductory article than one on "criticism" only. So I would be very happy if some positive non-Muslim views were added. And of course much of the western scholarship is neither positive nor negative, just an external view. Similarly the section on "Contemporary Islam" should present a balanced overview of the the whole spectrum of thought, not reducing it to simplistic categories of "fundamentalists" vs "reformers". I am not strongly against having a "criticism" section though if it could be written well without endless edit warring. Itsmejudith 12:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Good copyediting

Thanks for your work on the Islam in the US article. I always like being copyedited by someone who knows what he/she is doing. Zora 19:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello PelleSmith. Since you have dealt with user CltFn in the past, I would appreciate your comment here. Thank you. BhaiSaab 20:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Islam in the United States

In response to your comment on my talk page. I see your point about making incremental changes and in all fairness I should have been more carefull in not wiping out some of your valid edits. But there are 2 ways of looking at this dispute , before I made what you call a wholesale revert, editors had wiped out my edits wholesale. Are you saying that its OK to wipe out my edits wholesale but not ok for me to revert back wholesale? My concern in this article is to be able to have all POVs represented in the article not just the one of any particular group of editors.--CltFn 05:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Snide comments are not helpful.

PelleSmith wrote the following on user talk:Getaway:

"Getaway. Please edit a bit more carefully. Also don't justify poor edits with snide comments like "7 million Muslims in the U.S.??? Who made up this number. It contradicts the next sentence and it contradicts reality. Removed permanently" and "That is still a huge range. And what is based upon? Someone's feelings?" as you did here. It makes good faith alot harder to imagine when you do that. As I mentioned those statstics come from the various estimates used below in the entry. If they don't exist then prove it and remove them. That would be helpful. I put the tag on the page so people would actually dig the references up. Thanks.PelleSmith 00:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)"

Your sanctimous comments would hold more water if you did not make snide comments yourself as you did on my talk page: "Those figures you decided to remove come from demographics in the entry. And here I was thinking you had actually read the entire entry.PelleSmith 23:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)"

You action undermine your comments, leaving you with littel credibility. Now that we have pointed that out. I would like to point out to you that you don't own the article AND I will continue to edit the article as I see fit. Have a good day!--72.181.142.25 14:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Getaway, I welcome your edits, but just remember that this is a group project. Also remember that there is wide range of "editing" from good faith to bad, from vandalism to entry improvement, and editing as "one sees fit" could fall anywhere on this spectrum. If I, you or anyone else make edits that other editors think are unproductive to the encyclopedic quality of an entry then objections will be made, reverts may happen, changes and improvement may come about, etc. etc.. That's just the nature of this project. Regarding your last edits, I've posted on your user page about what in my humble opinion is the productive way to look into the demographic estimates on the page. Have a nice day.PelleSmith 15:19, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

PelleSmith wrote on User:Getaway's talk page: "Touche. I'll gladly not leave such snide remarks on your page again. But my frustrated "And here I thought you had actually read the entire entry", was left on your talk page, in communication with you, and not in an edit summary. However, as you point out, it can easily be seen as snide. My deepest appologies. Now, please do figure out if any of those demographic estimates are wrong or not based on real surveys. That, again would be the productive way of working on the article, as opposed to simply deleting material. Also if you would sign your post on my page with your user name instead of that IP I would much appretiate it. If that IP isn't you, and you didn't leave that comment, then I will gladly delete it from my userpage and chastize them for impersonating you. All the best.PelleSmith 15:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)"

Generally, I find your comments long-winded and self-centered and as such they are unproductive. Once again, I will continue to edit as I see fit and you will just have to deal with it. Have a good day! And seriously, do not respond to me again because I don't find your comments productive. As far as I can tell you spend a huge amount of time justifying why your edits are the only reasonable choice when there are usually four, five, six reasonable choices. --Getaway 20:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Hajj

There is nothing related on talk page. It was removed just bcoz of some mistake.

There has always been, and I even reposted before I reverted, as I've pointed out on your talk page already.PelleSmith 15:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

3RR

Just letting you know that he reported you for 3RR .--Strothra 14:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

?

Hi. Did you mean to make this edit: ? It's quite confusing. Dahn 13:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem: it is indeed confusing that newer comments were made in an old section, and the text there has become quite large and repetitive - such errors are bound to happen. Dahn 13:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

For real, don't you think this edit will give the impression that we endorse him having continued to be linked with the Iron Guard after 1940-41? Dahn 01:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it is too much - consider that the introductory section is the basis for main page descriptions for featured articles, which are rather intricate in detail so as to be explicit on their own (it was not one of my priorities to edit text there, but since somebody did, we might as well keep it). This works for me, but I was just wondering if you would take the chance of letting it be understood that Eliade continued to sympathize with the Guard after it ceased to be active in Romania (granted, the other one was not specific, but it was specific enough so as not to harm the point of those authors who say otherwise). Dahn 01:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Incidents at Talk:Islam in the United States

Hello, PelleSmith. Just to let you know, there is a debate going on currently between User:Getaway and I over whether or not his accusation of you as being uncivil is justified. I think you have been not only civil but commendably patient in your discussion at that page. If you have anything you would like to contribute to the discussion, I invite you to speak up on my talk page. --Kuzaar 17:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, PelleSmith, I just want to point out to you that Kuzaar has made threats against me and I wouldn't really join him in his attempts to threaten and control me. You would be engaging in Kuzaar's inappropriate behavior also.--Getaway 18:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Just for reference, I have not threatened Getaway- he is accusing me of this to avoid explaining his unjustified accusation of you of being uncivil. --Kuzaar 18:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see any threats on Kuzars talk page. I'm not going to get involved here, since you are arguing about whether or not I have been civil, but in my humble opinion I believe Kuzar is trying to point out matters of policy to you. If he were threating you he would be saying that he's going to report you, that you will be punished, or something like that. It isn't abnormal on wikipedia for wikipedians to try to help other wikipedians stay within policy guidelines.PelleSmith 18:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I do this much. I'm not going to pushed around by Kuzaar. It is inappropriate and I will not stand by allow him to get away with it.--Getaway 23:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Secularism

Good job on Secularism. Both simplified and improved. Thanks. Student7 03:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

John Esposito

John Esposito, heads the International Affairs and Islamic Studies at Georgetown University which is a recipient of a $20,000,000 endowment from Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal of Saudi Arabia . He has clear ties to Saudi lobbying interests and this should be mentioned to put his criticism of Bat Ye'or in the proper context.

As regards to your veiled threats "If you are going to proceed in this manner something has to be done about it", this could be construed to be a borderline violation of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks.--CltFn 15:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"Could be" construed to be a "borderline" violation ... seriously? Is that how you are going to respond to an insistance that you refrain from consciously adding false information about John Esposito to wiki entries? You know as well as I do that "something has to be done about it" does not qualify as a personal attack. You also know as well as anyone that John Esposito is himself not a recipient of these funds. We have gone over this several times, and I have even mentioned it in the recent RFC about your editing. How much more clearly can this be outlined? How much more obvious can it be that you are disregarding this fact and consciously adding missinformation about Esposito to wiki entries? Esposito runs an institute at Georgetown University. A Saudi Prince gave this institute and Georgetown University a very sizable donation. Stop claiming that Esposito is the recipient of the this money. It is FALSE.PelleSmith 15:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Its not false information about Esposito, perhaps not clearly written , which I will correct . You keep talking about bad faith , no offense but it is you who repeatedly are displaying bad faith. --CltFn 15:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Really? Please explain to me how I am acting in bad faith? I'm more than eager to hear it. You can't dismiss it as poorly written when it is the exact wording that was explicitly discussed twice already and clearly established as presenting a falsehood. If you want to establish a connection between Esposito and Saudi funders then do so by representing facts accurately. How much clearer can this be?PelleSmith 15:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for changing making the statement accurate.PelleSmith 15:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

OK thanks. --CltFn 16:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Religion Demographics changes

PelleSmith, please revert the whosesale changes that you made to the series of edits I made to the Religion article. While we may disagree as to whether the arithmetic calculations that I added to the Demographics section constitute WP:OR or not, most of what you removed was either strictly factual annotation as to the sources of the data presented in the section or a direct quotation from the main source, adherents.com. On what possible grounds have you removed those edits? --Ubarfay 00:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for input

As the only contributor other than User:Jeff3000 to weigh in on my RfC re the Demographics section of the Religion article, I am soliciting your input. We are otherwise deadlocked. Regards, --Ubarfay 08:00, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't talk to me in anyway.

Dear PelleSmith: I have been on an extended break and I have returned. But in the meantime I noticed that you have continued in your unwanted, inappropriate communication with me. Once again, I ask you to stop talking and communicating with me. I have nothing to share with you. I will not be pushed around by you. Don't communicate with me any longer.--Getaway 21:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing inappropriate about making personal communications with people on their talk pages. I'm pretty sure that this is what the user talk pages are for. What is innapropriate however is copy and pasting comments from user talk pages and putting them on the talk pages of entries as if the editors whose comments you copied left these comments on said entry talk pages. Not to mention the fact said comments had nothing to do with the entry you copied them to. I do find it rather ironic that you say "I will not be pushed around by you", while you demand that I no longer communicate with you. Believe me I try really hard not to communicate with you. All I have repeatedly asked is that you try to be more civil on an entry talk page, and in edit summaries on that entry so that a more productive environment can be enjoyed by all of us, however much we may dissagree.PelleSmith 22:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Your comment

re:Insinuating that the many editors who don't agree with some of your edits on Islam in the United States are sockpuppets, is not exactly the best way to kick off the new you. That article needs alot of work, lets try to go at it productively.PelleSmith 23:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

No disrespect but I have stated what I observed and note that I said in the comment "suspect". However you have a point , it does not help the discussion very much and so I shall avoid making such comments outside of the Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard‎. --CltFn 16:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Language

PelleSmith left this unwanted note on my talk page: Getaway, Can I beg you to please refrain from using the term "BS" which is a well known acronym for a profanity, when editing Secularism, as you did here. The editing on Secularism has enjoyed a very civil tone (at least as long as I've been privy to it), one which I'm sure other editors there would love to preserve. Please don't take this as an accusation or a criticism but simply as an initial appeal to edit Secularism with neutral language. Thank you, sincerely.PelleSmith 14:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I would take your complaints more seriously if I had not already been down the road with you on the Islam in the United States article, where you disagreed with just about any edit that I did and you made comment after comment after comment where you criticized my work, my motives, etc. You made outlandish and flat out incorrect statements such as "Also, I highly doubt that either World Almanac or Britnnica have ever commissioned studies that estimate this figure. I'm sure they both originate somewhere else in the first place." Or you have stated elsewhere: "Personally I think listing all of these estimates is completely unecessary, but if they are going to be listed I don't like the idea of one partisan group whittling them down to conform with their POV." This particular statement is a complete falsehood. I am not a "partisan group" and I was not "whittling them down to conform with" my "POV". That is was your BS comment. In this statement you accuse me of POV, which is ludicrous because I ended up tracking down the actual study, which was, contrary to your false statement, created by Britannica. And I tracked down the World Almanac listings and they were simply repeats of Britannica, contrary to your rantings that it is not true. And in the end, I used a larger number than was there when I started because that was the correct study, a 2005 study of the U.S., not Canadian, the U.S., and the Caribbean, as the studies listed previously did. You have been rude and uncivil when you stated: "Those figures you decided to remove come from demographics in the entry. And here I was thinking you had actually read the entire entry.PelleSmith 23:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)" At least you were not rude, just flat out wrong when you defended Zora's fuzzy math here: "The math is 100% sound and those figures are 100% factually accurate as means and medians of the estimates presented on the page, as of my edits." Once again, doing mathematical calculations on incorrect studies gives you BS. The underlining studies that Zora was using for her Original Research calculations were based upon numbers of Muslims in the Northern America, not the U.S., so her ultimate number was incorrect, but yet you had to defend her!!!! And you wonder why I believe that most of your comments are just designed to make sure that no one ever changes your work, not what the best wording of the article should be. I don't have time to go through all of the other comments that you have directed toward me where you and Zora question my motivation. I won't blame Kuzaar's actions on you because he interjects himself into all kinds of disputes between Wikipedians. You need to focus on your attitude and stop giving me lectures. I ended up proving without question that Britannica and World Alamanac were one and same, but I had to deal with you and Zora the whole way throwing brickbats just because neither of you wanted your work changed. When I find BS on other pages, such as Secularism, I am going to point it out too. For example, there is a commentary of a Wikipedian in that article that stated something to the effect that decisions are being made on stem cell research based upon religion, etc. What hogwash!!! It will be removed. That is just BS propaganda. I know you don't like me saying that but that is just your opinion.--Getaway 15:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Your suggestions

I have posted to the other Entry Talk pages. Thank you for our suggestions. They were very helpful. Thank you as well for being fair. I know that you are motivated for good, as am I.

While it may seem like preaching to some, to my mind, I do not preach. Instead, I am only making available to others what we have been taught in our study centers. I always try to be as brief but as complete as possible. But my subjects are complex and generally misunderstood. And unfortunately, I know of no better way to get my meaning across.

Despite our differences, I am hopeful that we will be able to work together to do more good. Angel 04:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Angel, I hope you realize that I have nothing against your website, or your spiritual inclinations and that I wish you all the success in the world with your pursuits. However, there are rules and guidelines here at Misplaced Pages for good reasons. For instance, if we allowed anyone to promote their own spiritual path, via a link to a website or blog, then there would be an endless directory of links on the religion entry page. Also, if people use entry talk pages for purposes other than discussing the entries then they will become unwieldy and unproductive.PelleSmith 18:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Your expurgtion of Dr. Knuth's lectures on the MIT God and Computers series

In the articles on Religion and God you unilaterally removed the "God and Computers" further reading piece ... "Please don't add a "further reading section" just to insert a non-notable point of view about a rather specific topic" and "revert: just because it is about "God" doesn't mean it should be linked here ... wikipedia is not a directory) " --- "which is not by a "non-notable" (say you) --- it was delivered by one of the best Computer Scientists and Mathematicians in the world, ever, Dr. Donald Knuth. You should have discussed this first before deletion. I ask you to further explain. I don't think you are familiar with the MIT lecture series or Dr. Knuth which makes you unqualified to delete it from the article. Geez. Give someone an eraser on a pencil and see how they overuse it ! ... Thanks. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 20:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC) talk)

I just posted on your page about this. If we had a "further reading" section on either of those entries, and maintained NPOV, both entries would turn into directories of similar lectures, of books, journal papers, webpages, etc. etc. I didn't mean that the lectures aren't interesting or important. However, if we included all such lectures we'd soon run into trouble. Also, since you had to create an entire section "Further Reading" to put the link up, don't you think maybe it would have been nice to suggest the move on the talk page first? Also, if you look at the talk page of Religion you will see that there is an ongoing issue about the addition of links, and about SPAM. I hope that explains it. Thanks.PelleSmith 20:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Pelle. I take your points as such and generally true. In this case, Dr. Knuth is not just anyone else. Okay. Let's see how to work it in somehow. I have asked one of the most senior editors I know what is thought of this question. I would suggest your not being so quick on the delete/revert button for other senior editors who have no history of impulsiveness. Not everyone is as accomodating as I am, modestly said. We'll see how it works out. Our responses did cross in the Wikimail aether. Thanks. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 20:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (talk)

On the grounds of the academic seriousness and acedemic reverence due to the 1999 MIT series, and the interplay of the ubiquitous computer and technology and concepts of God and religion. For many computers have eclipsed their God which is a slippery slope for society perhaps. Dr. Knuth gives some salient insights into this. Confer: http://www-tech.mit.edu/V119/N51/knuthtlin.51f.html ... Please watch what you quickly delete when it is written by mature established Misplaced Pages editors ... and without discussion. Thanks very much and be well. Always glad to hear from you again. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 21:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

This has gotten a bit out of hand. I meant well and was honest in what I said. I don't expect to be treated any better than any other editor, except I would ask someone to think before deletion, which you say you did and I thank you for that. I was trying to make another contribution to Misplaced Pages, and that's about it. If it doesn't fit in with the article, as you see it, so be it. There's no need for anyone to get out of sorts about it. I don't and am not. It's really not that big a deal ultimately. Thanks for your kindness and reflection and thoughts on the matter. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 22:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (talk)

Spirituality Studies

Dear PelleSmith forgive me if this is not the appropriate way to communicate on Misplaced Pages. Perhaps I do not understand its etiquette. I refer to your criticism of the article Spirituality Studies. I am the author of this article. You are clearly a perceptive reader. However, I do not understand why you object on the grounds of notability (importance) or original research. There are many trivial entries in this encyclopedia (e.g. on rook and pawn endings in a chess game). But I enjoy reading some of them! The rules of notability have surely been met by citing a fair number of academic sources. You may not like the term "spirituality studies"--perhaps you have a view also on "women's studies", or "queer studies", I do not know, and do not mean to offend--but if the scholarship exists, so too does the field. There may be some originality in organisation of the materials referred to in this the article, but this is hardly objectionable, especially since you say "much of what is discussed in the entry is both interesting and in my own view important". I would ask you to reconsider your complaints. If you look at the original version of the article, you will find my contact details there. I would prefer to continue this discussion by email. Many thanks for your considered remarks. (p.s. I've not logged in because I've entirely forgotten how!)

Freya Aswynn

Re your concerns about the Freya Aswynn article, I remind you that policy states that self-published sources are allowable in an article about the publisher, within reason. Possibly you would prefer her bio at Llewellyn. Also, as per the contested proposed deletion policy, PROD is not to be restored once removed. 69.229.178.82 21:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I would just submit it for AfD and see what happens. The process tends to bring advocates out of the wood work to source entries. - WeniWidiWiki 00:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Minor Barnstar
		Minor edits are often-overlooked, but essential, contributions to the Misplaced Pages. The Minor Barnstar is awarded to you for making minor edits of the utmost quality. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hard vs. soft

Thanks for that essay, it put things in perspective. As for the use of the terms "moderate" and "extreme" to parallel Kosmin's structuring of "soft" and "hard" I am not persuaded that it is a wise choice. It is significant that I was not the only one struck by it, or to attempt to change it.

"Extreme" is too liable to be associated with "extremism" and thus with radical, fringe, or irrational views. If you asked me what an example of extreme secularism might be I might point to the various Communist revolutions, which annihilated the power of the church, such as the wholesale destruction of the Tibetan Buddhist monasteries, and murder of the monks. Now that's extreme and you will get no argument from me.

As to what pair of terms to use, maybe we need to elaborate instead of putting our faith in single-word qualifiers. Perhaps we could use "indifferent towards religion" (after Kosmin) and "rejecting of religion". Haiduc 23:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Try it and see how it works. Whatever best conveys the difference without interjecting value judgments. Regards, Haiduc 00:54, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for attempting to inject some of the often missing sanity and logical argumentation with respect to Wiki policies that is sadly lacking in discussion of articles such as Rick Ross. BabyDweezil 16:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Award of a Barnstar

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		The Barnstar of Diligence is hereby awarded in recognition of extraordinary scrutiny, precision, and community service. Awarded by Addhoc 19:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

FYI

You aren't the first wikipedian I have encountered who doesn't know how to add comments in the middle of a numbered list, without screwing up the numbering. So, I didn't prepare this Indentation primer just for you.

If you would like to know how to add comments in the middle of a numbered list without screwing up the numbering, take a look.

I'll fix the numbering screw-up you left on my talk page myself, this time. Geo Swan 20:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It told you so,I told you so

Finally, they removed the picture of the spread of religion in the religion section that you keep putting up. Oops, sorry if I went to far. I have to clean up myself also.

I'm simply speechless.PelleSmith 15:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

AFD Salma Arastu

I have removed her convertion to Islam from the article and will not add it again. I hope that will satisfy you. --- ALM 09:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

You didnt have to do that. Thats a notable fact about the person. --Matt57 14:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

A notable fact about a person you're claiming is not notable? So what does it even matter Matt? PelleSmith 17:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It is ONE thing that a persona is notable or not. The fact that someone has converted in or out of Islam is ANOTHER fact and is separate from the first. --Matt57 22:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I am well aware of that. My question is why does it matter to you since you don't think the person is notable in the first place and wish the entry gone. Cheers.PelleSmith 02:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Requesting help in 72 virgins

People are deleting comments from a famous would-be suicide bomber in 72 virgins. Could you help improve this article or revert the vandalism? Also this article was nominated for an AfD by ALM_scientist, which was ofcourse a speedy keep. --Matt57 14:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

No thanks. A resounding no thanks.PelleSmith 17:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Can I ask why? You do show a lot of interest in controversial Islam related topics.--Matt57 22:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Afraid you have that wrong. I don't edit or have an "interest in" 99% of those entries, and entries like Islam in the United States should not be controversial but unfortunately draw controversy from ideological extremists. I don't have anything to add to 72 virgins.PelleSmith 02:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

No personal attacks

Please refrain from personal attacks like calling me an "idealogical extremist" as you did here. If I hear any more personal attacks from you, I will have you reported. See Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. --Matt57 15:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't exactly call that a personal attack. On the occasion when I feel that I have crossed lines I apologize. On this occasion I feel absolutely no need to apologize and if you want to report me go right ahead. Why are you so offended by the fact that you don't represent a majority perspective?PelleSmith 17:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Calling a user an idealogical extremist is a personal attack. If its not then I can call you a number of things I have in mind for you too, but we have to abide by WP:NPA. Please be more careful next time. --Matt57 22:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Cheers.PelleSmith 02:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar

Hi, PelleSmith. You deserve another barnstar. Axl 09:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		PelleSmith, for ensuring the neutrality and quality of external links. Axl 09:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Religion and Government

Hi Pelle -- having seen many of your contributions on several of these articles, I was curious what you thought of the idea here. Cheers, Mackan79 18:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you please help us?

I need your help in Muhammad pictures dispute. Can you please improve this article and help me in filing an arbitration case? I have to file arbitration case in a week. Thanking you in anticipation. --- A. L. M. 09:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

3RR

You were reported at 3RR for edit warring on Secularity (non-religiosity). While I am not issuing any blocks or page protection at this time, I strongly suggest you both discuss instead of reverting each other, rather than discussing in addition to the revert war. You are both talking; quit telling each other to look at the conversation, and actually look at the conversation. Don't punctuate each discussion point with a revert - let the discussion go back and forth a few times. You can be blocked for 3RR even if you're trying to do the right thing, so remember: there are no emergencies on Misplaced Pages. Kafziel 22:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Editor's Barnstar
		For your work on always giving clear and meticulous arguments in maintaining the quality of the Religion article -- Jeff3000 03:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

My reverts to Islam in US

Hi Pelle, the intention of my revert is to restore the article layout which has been messed up since the last few edits. Even your current edit where in you reverted my edit has again messed up the layout. If you can see the article now, a huge chunk of the article has gone into the portion after the references (notes) down below. I do not know which portion I deleted, however my intention is not to delete any text. Its possible that some text might get deleted when I revert because its hard to restore the article again and compare back to what was added since the previous edits were made with the layout error. I am reverting again to a point where edits can be made without the layout error. feel free to add anything after that point. I intend to add something too and I will make an extra edit after reverting to the proper layout so that there is no confusion. thanks NapoleansSword 20:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Pelle, I realized on comparing edits that while I was restoring the layout yesterday the "Islamic Relief" passage had gotten deleted. It was not my intention, just a oversight. Rest assured that the "Proper Layout" edit includes that passage and the previous edits prior to yours (since your edit had a bad layout too). I changed the language to accomodate your concerns. Feel free to edit but please make sure that your further edits don't damage the passage layout. thanks NapoleansSword 21:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I respect your commitment, but...

PelleSmith, you must understand that you are dealing with a active base of Misplaced Pages editors that ideologically do not even recognize the existence of anti-Islamic sentiment or views. One need only check the Misplaced Pages article on Islamophobia to see what I mean. The very existence of prejudice against Muslims is actually contested there, and heavily reflected in the article. There no longer exists a category of "anti-Islamic sentiment", and the likes of Ann Coulter are seen not as a bigoted individual who views to Muslim-Americans as "ragheads"(her own words and writings, many a time), but as "critics of Islam". In other words, how can one expect to argue with those that hold such singular and preset prejudicial views and beliefs? The answer is that you cannot, and there is little point in trying. I admire your efforts to remove bias from the article, but it is sadly in vain. Padishah5000 20:41, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

3RR report

Thanks for the heads-up. The request is malformed, and I provided clear reasoning for the reversions (as well as a lot of discussion about them), so I would be surprised if it was followed up on at all. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. MSJapan 05:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

re: your message on my talk page: Could you use talk before making major changes to cited text?

Why did you completely alter the lead to History of Islam in the United States without so much as mentioning it on the talk page first?

I tried to make a introductory statement that was honest and not misleading as it currently is.

Your stated rationale is dubious since the text that references the lead is certainly notable. When intending to change the substance of a text the notability of a reference isn't the issue either and you know that. Also, weaselly phrases like "in earnest" don't belong in the entry, certainly not in the lead. I'm sure there is a neutral way to convey the fact that large scale immigration didn't occur until the period you mention. If you think the lead should be fleshed out with more detail about the three periods of contact then by all means do so in a neutral way. If you don't agree with the content in the entry, all of which is sourced, then as I have already asked you to do, please bring it up in the talk page for discussion. Of course when you do so sourced counter claims would be helpful.

I am currently assembling sources and materials to properly reference my edits

As it stands I will openly admit to what you already know, that I have little tolerance for deceptive edit summaries.

I have no intent to make deceptive edit summaries. My apologies if this is how it appeared to you.

Instead of just tagging every sentence in the "Slavery" section with that ugly tag "", how about starting a real discussion on the talk page?

The tags were to indicate the points of contention

I tagged the section as a whole and removed those individual tags since you clearly think every sentence, sourced and unsourced, is not accurate. Again can you bring some sourced counter claims in on the talk page so that civilized discussion can be had?

I am going over materials now. There is quite a bit . I will add sources shortly.

--CltFn 05:02, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Please dont delete stuff

If you delete stuff like you did here, you should move it to the relevant article. --Matt57 20:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. If it is NOT appropriate in that entry then there is nothing wrong with simply deleting it. If you are interested in editing the other entry then by all means do, but I am not and there is no reason why I have to.PelleSmith 23:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

No. --Matt57 11:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you take this to Talk:Islam in the United States? There seems to be a dearth of explanation coming from your side of the fence on this issue, why don't you help elucidate it.PelleSmith 14:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The deal with that article

Hi,

An editor requested temporary undeletion and userfication for the purpose of content review. These requests are in the upper portion of the DRV page, are routinely granted (unless the content violates WP:BLP or otherwise creates serious concerns for the Foundation), and are not archived outside of the page history at DRV. The content will be redeleted after a week or two; as I said, content reviews are temporary. Best wishes, Xoloz 23:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I requested temporary userification of the article. My recollection was that several references that I supplied, during the {{afd}} complied with WP:RS. My recollection was that their removal was hasty. I wanted to check. I also wanted to more fully check the merits of other references which were removed, to see if I thought their removal was overly hasty. I wanted to check my recollection that there were flaws in this {{afd}} that might merit a {{drv}}. If I think I can complete a version of this article that addresses the concerns raised, I will initiate a full deletion review.

If you wish, I will invite your comments, and those of the closing admin, prior to initiating that deletion review.

Cheers! Geo Swan 15:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I reply to your comment, I have reviewed the article. I have prepared another version.

I left a note on Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard about one of the first references you expressed concern about back in March.

I was in the process of giving you a heads-up about this note.

What kind of input would I welcome from you? Well, civil comments on User talk:Geo Swan/working/Religious conversion and terrorism (fixed). User:Geo Swan/working/Religious conversion and terrorism (fixed) is in my user space, not article space, please don't edit it.

I recognize that the version I just prepared has some weaknesses. I'll address those weaknesses below.

What is missing from the version I just prepared -- I don't know how to say this tactfully than this -- are your "improvements". Your excisionwere, IMO, were disruptive and counterproductive.

IMO, you removed a lot of stuff you were concerned about, when, instead, you should have raised your concern first on the talk page. Adam Gadahn, for instance, you removed his entry because you thought the reference didn't back up that he was associated with terrorism. Is he actually a terrorist? Maybe? Has he been accused on being a terrorists? Has he made the most wanted list? Repeatedly, by American security officials. This is one of the instances where your excisions that was highly disruptive.

I won't burden you with a laundry list.

What weaknesses remain?

Some might argue that an article that helped readers find notable converts who became terrorists would be worthwhile. One of your early criticisms of this article was that it focussed on one academic study of converts who then progressed to terrorism. I didn't see where you offered an explanation of what was wrong with that. It looks like there are a number of academic articles on this topic. My personal preference is that article do one thing -- not two.

I'll admit, since our dispute, my idea of what constitutes an acceptable reference has evolved. When I prepared the version of the article in my user space I concentrated on your contributions. I am not sure about some of the older references.

The usual next step after an article is restored, following a deletion review, is for it to be sent straight to another {{afd}} -- kind of like when a mistrial is declared in a court of law.

If I initiate a full deletion review I won't do so until I feel I can defend all the references. This version has plenty of references. Losing a few shouldn't be a problem.

Since you told the other guy you were unfamiliar with deletion review, I will tell you some more things about it. What the rules spell out is that the discussion is supposed to be confined to whether there waa a flaw in how the deletion policies were followed. The discussion is not supposed to touch on the actual pros and cons of the article in quesiton -- that is why the step following a restoration is normally to open another {{afd}}.. But in my limited experience the aspect of the policy is routinely ignored -- even by very experienced wikipedia administrators -- who should know better.

The administrator who temporarily userified and restored the article said he thought two weeks should be long enough. That would have been last Friday. But I expect to ask some more questions about some of the references you expressed concerns about, over on Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. I'd prefer that the temporary content review was not teminated before I ask those further questions.

As with my first question I will do my best to confine my question to the issues, not personalities, and refrain from painting you as a villain.

This will be longer than I originally anticipated, but I had some other things consume some of my free time, and, frankly, going through your excisions took me a lot longer than I thought it would.

BTW, I saw that in one of your recent contributions you admonished one of your correspondents for confining their replies solely to the edit summary, without offering longer explanations in the talk page. I'm glad to see I convinced you of something. 8-)

Cheers! Geo Swan 17:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)