Talk:Soviet occupation of Latvia in 1940

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Irpen (talk | contribs) at 05:14, 15 September 2007 (→Once again, and yet again, sources?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 05:14, 15 September 2007 by Irpen (talk | contribs) (→Once again, and yet again, sources?)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Military history Start‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

Start

This article has been rated as Start-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar and style: not checked Supporting materials: not checked	To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call: \| b1<!--Referencing and citation--> = <yes/no> \| b2<!--Coverage and accuracy --> = <yes/no> \| b3<!--Structure --> = <yes/no> \| b4<!--Grammar and style --> = <yes/no> \| b5<!--Supporting materials --> = <yes/no> assessing the article against each criterion.

Additional information:
/
	This article is not currently associated with a task force. To tag it for one or more task forces, please add the task force codes from the template instructions to the template call.

Latvia B‑class

	Latvia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Latvia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Latvia related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LatviaWikipedia:WikiProject LatviaTemplate:WikiProject LatviaLatvia
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

The Arbitration Committee has placed this article on probation. If any editor makes disruptive edits, they may be banned by an administrator from this and related articles, or other reasonably related pages.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Soviet occupation of Latvia in 1940 article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Template:Notpropaganda

Former countries Unassessed

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country
???	This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Request for Comment: Noncompliant

Template:RFChist Template:RFCpol

Does the article contain in your opinion any violations of WP:NPOV ,WP:Verifiability, WP:What Misplaced Pages is not and WP:OR?!! 08:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Statements by those previously involved

Comments by User:Novickas

Responding to request for comments at WP:Lith.

The article as written looks NPOV to me. Only 1 citation needed tag is in it; the German occupation section does need some inline citations.

The title could be considered POV, and hence problematic, because a significant minority - the Russian government - objects to the term "occupation". Their acknowlegment of that word would open the door to discussing reparations to this and other former Soviet republics. Citation needed, but shouldn't be too hard to find, and would add a valuable perspective.

The majority of the article covers Latvia during WWII, so I would vote for that name - with a good-sized aftermath section. More could be put into other articles, and the lead would have to be rewritten (which is of course not a trivial task). It does seem customary for historians to divide the 20th century into WWI, interwar, WWII, and post-war eras - that would also accomodate the expansions that will come to Latvian history on WP.

It would be a loss if this were to be derailed from Good Article over the title - so much good work and references. I completely understand the wish to link the series of occupations together - one long nightmare - but also think readers will find the events dreadful no matter how it's titled.

Hope this all works out. I would be happy to help when the dust settles a bit. Novickas 15:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

PS The pictures are definitely POV unless they can be balanced with pictures of Latvians in the concentration camps - a well-referenced event - and those pictures are nonexistent. Novickas 15:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Comments by User:Vecrumba

The article has not been allowed to develop because of ceasless attacks and diversion of editing resources into these endless disputes. Absolutely zero evidence has been produced from any reputable source by any editor opposing the article title or content to support the official Russian position, therefore it is noted appropriately but not dealt with as an "equal but opposing viewpoint." It is merely a "version" of history.
     The article is specifically NOT just about WWII, it only appears to be that way currently because, in fact, only the very first section regarding the initial Soviet occupation (prior to Nazi invasion/occupation) has been completed.
     I expect we'll have the usual accusations of tenditious editing, allegations of Nazi hate speech, denouncements of equating of Soviet liberation of Eastern Europe with the Holocaust, accusations of Holocaust denial, representation of the majority of Latvians being all to eager for Nazi guns so they could shoot Jews... I believe I've covered them all.
     Now that I've put the stake in the ground, yet again, I'm hoping to sit out this round of RfCs. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

As long as we're at it, I have not seen it pop up yet in both categories. If we're going to get the widest audience, let's make sure we get one. Hope springs eternal. I wish Termer luck in this venture, the last editor from the oppose-those-who-oppose-occupation camp who tried to bring things to a head eventually gave up and abandoned Misplaced Pages. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 16:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Comments by User:Termer

For now I'm just going to continue counting on Encyclopædia Britannica as the reliable Encyclopædia instead of WP. The Encyclopædia that is widely considered to be the most scholarly of encyclopedias. The encyclopedia that has an article:Latvia The Soviet occupation and incorporation , the article this one here is based on including the events from 1940, from July 1941 to October 1944. The article that in Encyclopædia Britannica includes A national renaissance developed in the late 1980s in connection with the Soviet campaigns for glasnost (“openness”) and perestroika + Soviet efforts to restore the earlier situation culminated in violent incidents in Riga in January 1991 . After a failed coup in Moscow in August, the Latvian legislature declared full independence, which was recognized by the Soviet Union on September 6.. Thanks!--Termer 18:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Title and scope.

This article covers both Soviet occupations thus time limit was not justified. I have moved it but I suspect that after discussion of over an appropriate name there may be another move. Latvian SSR is an article about a member state of SU not the occupation itself so merging the second occupation to that one is not appropriate.I hope this settles the issue.--Alexia Death the Grey 11:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought we are getting somewhere from Termer's actions but since AD renewed the Soapbox, I am restoring the tag for the same reasons described multiple times at the talk page of the original article. Soapboxing won't be tolerated. --Irpen 15:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You were getting exactly nowhere, to get somewhere you need consensus. Two people aren't it. Please be specific, WHAT exactly you don't like as a list. It looks VERY sourced to me.--Alexia Death the Grey 15:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I have moved here the RFC and the tags that were lost in the splits.Feel free to continue, Im goning to change your noncmpilant tag to disputed until you provide proof.--Alexia Death the Grey 15:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"Disputed" applies only to factual accuracy. The article also suffers from WP:SYNT as explained ad naseum. Do not remove good-faithed tags over editor's objections. I've said all there is to it in the previous discussions. --Irpen 15:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually the tag is now "POV" because you haven provided any material to support others. You are saying this POV is not neutral...--Alexia Death the Grey 15:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

To have a dispute you need to provide SPECIFIC complaints. Why haven't you done so?--Alexia Death the Grey 15:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

(EC) I've done so multiple times. That you refuse to acknowledge what you don't like is a poor excuse. You can't force me to repeat the objections time after time by not addressing them properly and then asking again what they are. --Irpen 16:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You haven't. Slapping on MORE tags on top of the article does not make it more specific. Occupation is not A pov. Its a term used by sources, lots of the linked in the article.--Alexia Death the Grey 16:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, "Soviet occupations of Latvia" is even more clumsy title for the article than Occupations of Latvia. Occupied Latvia was clearly preferred on the talk page over there. Now, once and for all, lets get few things straight, since Latvia was incorporated into USSR in 1941, illegally or not, it doesn't matter. There always is going to no consensus regarding occupied Latvia 1944-1991. Since WP is working on building a consensus, and it doesn't make any difference how the story gets told here, I'd suggest Alexia Death the Grey restore the title Occupied Latvia (1940-41). As a compromise, so that it could be interpreted either ways, I'd also suggest Occupied Latvia 1940, or Occupation of Latvia 1940 once some editors think that mentioning Occupation in the title has such an importance. Since countries get occupied during wars anyway, it just comes with it, I personally would prefer Latvia in WWII that would include all other aspects of the events and the story than just "occupation". Thanks--Termer 15:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Occupied Latvia is a country in a state, even more so when limited to 1940-41. It would be an article of the same type as Latvian SSR This is not it. That misunderstanding is the root of your problem. Occupied Latvia is territory in a state and would constitute retasking of the article as this article is about the occupation as a process and a concept itself and that retasking as you can see made a LOT of editors unhappy. Consensus should not prosecuted at the expense of sourced facts.--Alexia Death the Grey 16:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry Alexia Death the Grey, didn't get any of this what you were saying -"country in a state"? Please consider renaming the article like suggested to reach a consensus. Thanks--Termer 16:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, it does seem weird no that I look at the explanation. I'll try again. This article is about historic events/phenomena in a territory spanning much bigger timespan than what you are proposing. You try to make it about a territory in a very restrictive time frame. You are trying to retask the article to be about something out of a very different category not speaking about the fact that this move would mean pruning the work of many editors. And with that other editors, like me, are not agreeing. You do not seem to understand consensus at all. Consensus happens when everybody agree. I and others don't agree, there is no consensus and you cannot achieve any by moving this page around. However you are welcome to start an article Occupied Latvia(1940-1941) and link it under see also on this page. That article would be limited to the time frame proposed, talking about only issues concerning that particular period of occupation focusing on the occupied territory itself.--Alexia Death the Grey 16:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, I think I got it finally what seems to be the basis of misunderstandings here. Let me spell it out. Once upon a time there was a Republic of Latvia on the land called Latvia. There was only one party, a body of a state that had claimed the land

A1. The Republic of Latvia

Then the Republic in the land got occupied by the USSR in 1940 and it ended up being incorporated into the USSR as Latvian SSR. Thereafter there were 2 parties, 2 bodies of states that had claims on the land:

B1. Republic of Latvia

B2. USSR or Latvian SSR.

Now, the Germans occupied the land called Latvia and claimed it by themselves and incorporated it into the province of Ostland. Thereafter there were 3 parties, 3 bodies of states that had claims on the land during 1941-1944

C1 Republic of Latvia

C2 USSR or Latvian SSR.

C3 Nazi Germany and its Ostland

Now, the Germans were pushed out from the land of Latvia in 1944 and the status quo returned to the previous

1944-1991 there were 2 parties that had claims on the land:

D1. Republic of Latvia

D2. USSR or Latvian SSR.

In 1991 or so the USSR ended up its claim to the land and thereafter only one party remained.

E1. The Republic of Latvia

Taking if from here, saying that the situation during, lets say 1944-1991 was strictly "soviet occupation" as a fact goes with an understanding that a claim is either 1 or zero; right or wrong. That means, it's a judgmental perception. Since there were 2 parties that had claims over the land during the period we can not proceed and call it a fact according to the judgmental perception of the one party only. Even though the viewpoint is supported by the Court of human rights, etc. all the sources. The facts that remain free from judgmental perception are that Latvia was occupied by USSR in 1940, a puppet government was installed. Now, the moment Latvia was incorporated into USSR, there is no more puppet government because the land and the republic were not sovereign any more and the status quo regarding soviet occupation as a fact changed as explained above.

Just as an example, since both parties: Republic of Latvia and USSR or Latvian SSR agree that 1941-1944 constituted the Nazi occupation; we don't have any problems over there because both judgmental perceptions say the same thing. Hope that this explains everything.

Based on the points above, please consider renaming the article. Thanks!--Termer 19:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

PS. There are enough sources out there that synthesize the events as occupied Latvia from 1940-1991. Therefore the "unpublished synthesis" tag is factually incorrect and should be removed. Thanks--Termer 19:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Irpen, there is no synthesis. You just don't like the conclusion, "occupation," drawn by reputable sources. It is only "synthesis" if there are no sources. Ah, perhaps some introspection of your own quoting (or not) of sources is in order.

Well, at least I'll get to eventually sit down to write a new summary article. You can feel free to tag that too when it arrives. Exactly where did you think "we" were getting, that an "occupation" would be called your neighbor just stopping by to visit and forgetting to leave for half a century?

And, "I won't even repeat my objections, I'm just tagging?" (paraphrase) You've never justified any of your objections based on any sources, and now you don't even deign to explain your tagging? Not explaining tags based on principle! — Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

the conclusion you state "occupation drawn by reputable sources" belongs to the article I long proposed about the applicability of the term. Nothing prevents you from using the term in the referenced form and within reason in the article about Soviet Latvia. But there is no reason why such article can only exist with your pet term in the title. History of La, Soviet LA, Latvia within USSR, there are plenty of non-judgmental titles and judgments in referenced form belong to the text and not articles. --Irpen 02:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

How about calling the article Occupied Latvia 1940. would that make everybody happy?--Termer 02:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, but there are no reputable sources saying NOT an occupation. Therefore it is not a "judgemental" term. It's not my "pet" term. "History of" is a different scope. "Soviet Latvia" is a duplicate, there is already a "Latvian S.S.R." article, which is a different scope. And "Latvia within the USSR"? Please! How about we don't call it the Kennedy assassination, from now on we just call it "Bullet within Kennedy's Brain" and create a separate article "Assassination (term)".

Sources! Not your personal contentions that a completely reputably sourced term is "judgemental". — Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I believe Irpen will never be happy until "occupation" is erased. Chopping the first occupation off is inappropriate, since the Soviets resumed right where they left off when they returned. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Soviets occupied in 1940. They then annexed and the country became the part of the USSR. In 1944 they reclaimed their pre-war borders. Latvia was part of the USSR and treated as such, unlike, say, Afghanistan. You cannot "occupy" your own territory. Some do consider the entire period an occupation which make this a good subject for the term article. As for the sources, as I said earlier, check the Columbia and Britannica. Both use the term "Occupation" only for the military event and not for the period. If they manage to do it, there is no reason why Misplaced Pages cannot. The lack of the word in the title does not deny the "occupation". It simply leaves this referenced claim to be made in the article with the reader left to decide. Your insistence to keep your pet term in the title is the source of all this drama. And I do not even object to its referenced usage within reason and context. --Irpen 03:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, its more than clear for me by now that we're dealing with a huge communication problem here. so lets just forget about it and once more, would Occupied Latvia 1940 make everybody happy?--Termer 03:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Better suggestion Occupation of Latvia (1940) with the Soviet atrocities and and deportations that immediately followed covered too as they were an immediate consequence of occupation directly related to it. --Irpen 03:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm cool with Occupation of Latvia (1940) and the German and "2nd soviet occupation" are going to be kept in the Aftermath section. Hope the rest of the guys gonna go for it and we can call it a consensus. Thanks--Termer 04:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

PS. to Irpen could you please be more considerate and choose words more carefully while dealing with controversial subjects. Things like your pet term & You cannot "occupy" your own territory are the ones for examle that are not going to help bringing parties to mutual understanding and issues closer to a consensus. In case you'd like to know why, I can explain in case necessary. Thanks--Termer 04:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The second quote is not addressed against any editor. It is simply a statement of fact that the occupied territory and integrated territory are different notions. As for the first one "pet term" it was my assessment of the situation when the editor cannot accept any title of the article about 50 years of the nation's history without the politically charged term. But I will try to take your advise into consideration. It would be nice if the other side avoided much more juicy epithets towards their opponents, both onwiki and on IRC (were the tone has turned plain horrific) and abandoned block-shopping and canvassing.

Now, with these rules in place, let's finally move on. I repeat my absoltuely sincere and not sarcastic suggestion to Vecrumba to start a term article. I don't understand why he does not want to discuss political positions where they belong and discuss history under the nonjudgmental titles. --Irpen 04:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Once again, and yet again, sources?

Re: You cannot "occupy" your own territory.

I'm glad Irpen brings this up. Certainly, Irpen is entitled contend whatever position he likes. Certainly, when someone in the Russian government says this (it's been cited before, someone military), they are equally entitled to state what they will. However, contentions and opinions are not encyclopedic facts.

Now, as I've mentioned too many times to repeat, the Russian Duma proclaimed Latvia (it was actually a reminder, proclaiming...) joined the Soviet Union legally according to international law: so, treaties, applicable Latvian laws, applicable Soviet laws. And this is why Latvia was not occupied--you cannot "occupy" your own territory that belongs to you legally.

Irpen, to move your statement from your personal unsubstantiated contention to a reputable viewpoint, your task is clear. Produce a reputable source which explains how it is that Latvia joined the Soviet Union legally. If you have no such reputable source, then your contention is just that, and nothing more--and is fine for a blog somewhere, but not for an encyclopedia. Produce a source.

P.S. You can't complain that there's no source because scholars can't be bothered to write about anything that is obviously true. That excuse has already been taken in a different article. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 04:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

P.P.S. "Occupation" is not a political contention, it is a reputably sourced fact. Just because "non-occupation" is a political contention (ZERO reputable sources), that does not mean the opposite is also a "political" contention. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 04:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

See Termer? That's what I meant. Sometimes I wonder whether certain editors ever read anyone's talk page entries but their own. And I even gave examples of sources above. I said above that we might be moving on. Now with that same old, this is unfortunately getting back on a familiar track. --Irpen 04:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Re Irpen at 04:35, occupied territory and integrated territory are different notions sounds good to me instead of the previous statement...
To Pēters J. Vecrumba and for editors who have been supporting the "Soviet occupations of Latvia". It could be referred to Double jeopardy to make things more clear what exactly Irpen is talking about. I think it's time to end this, since both "occupied territory" and "integrated territory" regarding 1944-1991 are POV-s we need to have a middle ground here and current proposals are the best both parties could get out of the subject. therefore, I'd urge everybody to go for it. thanks--Termer 04:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly. POV-s are "Latvia was under 50 years of occupation" and "Latvia was not under 50 years of occupations". These are judgments. "Integrated territory" is not a judgment, it is a fact. Latvia's status was of the regular Soviet administrative unit, a Soviet Republic divided by raions in the same way as any other administrative unit. When one conquers the territory and keeps it, one either integrate it into the country or keeps it as a colony or some sort of a special territory, sometimes under the military rule of the occupational authority. The case here is the case of the integrated territory. This is not a judgment, this is a fact. Whether it still constitutes an occupation, this is indeed a judgment and POV. --Irpen 05:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Irpen, just a friendly reminder that WP talk pages are not a proper place for political debates, therefore unfortunately I can't respond to your opinions.--Termer 05:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It is your choice to respond or not to to anything posted at the talk page. But, for the record, I did not post any opinions in the last entry. I stated a fact and the admission that there are two opinions regarding this. --Irpen 05:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Categories: