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Fair use rationale for Image:Darwinsblackbox.jpg
Image:Darwinsblackbox.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Misplaced Pages articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 00:58, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
"Intelligent design creationism"
I've placed brackets (and a ?) on 'creationism' in the statement "intelligent design " in this article because, even though I'm aware of how much a problem I.D. is for Scientismists (that is Sceintific Fundamentalists), I.D. in-and-of-itself is NOT creationism and neither should it be PURPOSELY expounded as such. Some supporters of I.D. may in fact have creationist leanings but that does not mean all do, nor does it mean that they automatically must assume {stereotypically implied by opponents} that they believe the "intelligence" is a deity of whatever theological conceptualized sort. Indeed this was not a very OBJECTIVE and UNBIASED description of the idea of Irreducible Complexity. --Carlon 19:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- The place to argue whether ID is creationism is at Talk:Intelligent design. As far as this article is concerned, the source quoted immediately after the phrase 'intelligent design creationism' uses that phrase to describe the ID campaign.
I'll edit the article to make that a little more clear.Another editor already reverted that change; obviously I'm not the only one who thinks it problematic. Sheffield Steelstalkers 21:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, the place to argue the point of view isn't on article talk pages, though the question of the wording is appropriately discussed here. The reliable secondary source cited is clear that ID is indeed creationism, and we should not give undue weight to the religiously motivated legalistic denials of its proponents which are essentially primary sources. .. dave souza, talk 21:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- It is very strange to claim that you have a "reliable secondary source" in a policy position paper of an advocacy organization. Also, your remark simply dismissing the statements made by intelligent design advocates for having religious convictions is itself an NPOV violation. They do not define intelligent design that way. It seems that most ID advocates are theistic (which does not in and of itself imply that they are religious...religion and theism are two different things, although they can be related), but simply showing this doesn't prove dishonesty or some sort of illegitimate "bias", any more than pointing out that opponents of ID most often have a materialist worldview. 200.56.182.195 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 15:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair use of Image:Darwinsblackbox.jpg
There is a dispute over whether fair use applies to the image on this page. Please join the debate at Image talk:Darwinsblackbox.jpg#Use of this image in Irreducible complexity. Rossami (talk) 01:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Serious Violation of NPOV
User banned. |
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The following is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. |
A second salient example is the unbalanced presentation of the arguments for ID with regard to the bacterial flagellum, which also appears near the beginning of the piece. ID advocates have answered the criticisms placed here, but they are presented as if no answer has been given. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MatthewHoffman (talk • contribs) 13:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
It is well established that over 99.9% of the relevant scientific disciplines reject intelligent design (see level of support for evolution). This is about as close to "unanimous consensus" as the scientific community gets. Even the originators of the term make references to God and religion when addressing their base and in fundraising operations. There are multiple references to this by the originators of the term in print. There is copious other evidence to support this. It was also the finding of a US federal court that this is true. These have been answered over and over and over in Misplaced Pages. If another reference or two is necessary here, that is a trivial matter and can easily be addressed if it is needed.--Filll 18:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC) Your first paragraph responds to nothing I wrote. I have written nothing about people rejecting or accepting ID. So that is a red herring and doesn't belong on the page. How people use ID arguments when they fundraise doesn't affect the definition of the word. I already acknowledged that people may use ID to show the consistency of their theistic beliefs with the natural sciences. That is not the issue. The issue is, how is the word defined by its users? ID is strictly limited to arguing that there is evidence of design in biological systems, and its opponents are constantly trying to claim that this is the same as creationism, but that is part of the debate. You are injecting one side of the debate into the article, which violates NPOV. If you wish to create a subheading with information about both sides of the controversy, that would be appropriate. But citing a public policy paper by a partisan organization opposed to ID is almost a dictionary definition of NPOV rule violation. Also, the issue I raised earlier about both sides not being included (such as responses by ID advocates to arguments regarding the flagellum, has not received a response. MatthewHoffman 19:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MatthewHoffman (talk • contribs) 19:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
You can keep claiming to have answered my points, but you didn't. I never said anything about any scientific consensus on the truth or falsehood of ID, and any reader of this page can verify that by just looking at the text. A single federal court judge who believes that teaching ID would be tantamount to teaching creationism is not proof that that is what its advocates mean when they use the word, and it certainly proves no consensus. And you have not responded to my point that a public policy paper cannot be used as some sort of neutral, scientific source. That is very obviously an abuse of NPOV. You are the one who does not seem to understand NPOV. I suggest that you reread the material yourself. I am not going to let this go. It seems very obvious that you and FeloniousMonk are using the page to advance your own point of view, and not to explain both sides of this controversy. This violates Misplaced Pages policy. I simply want an accurate description of the controversy presented, with both sides. MatthewHoffman 19:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
<undent>We can include a large number of citations, which I suppose we might be induced to do. Is this what we will be forced to do?--Filll 22:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC) It would seem to me that using "consensus" in this manner -- that is, "the majority say that's the definition, so it doesn't matter how its adherents actually define it" -- would be akin to saying that "since the majority of Americans are pro-life, then the definition of "pro-choice" in public policy papers by partisan organizations opposed to abortion (that it is actually "pro-abortion" or "pro-death") must be the correct definition." No, the correct way to define a term, especially in a truly encyclopedic article, is to define it as its adherents -- and, for goodness' sake, its creators -- define it. And clearly, beyond dispute, ID adherents specify within their definition of ID that it is not creationism. The only way someone can claim that calling it "intelligent design creationism" is not NPOV is by being blinded by their obvoius (to everyone else but them) POV. MH is correct here. --profg 03:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I would submit to you that there are two errors in your contentions. The first, and most fundamental, is that the definition of a word is a matter of "science" (by which you mean the natural sciences). All of the scientific research on earth cannot create a definition, because a definition is decided socially by those who use a word. The phrase "intelligent design" could mean what we mean in English by the word "coffee table" if common usage so determined it. In the United States, the most authoritative source on the meanings of words is without a doubt, the Merriam-Webster line of dictionaries. Merriam-Webster is the oldest dictionary company in the US, and is actually credited with determining the particularly American spellings of certain words, such as "center" instead of "centre". It defines "intelligent design", "creationism" and "creation science" as follows: http://m-w.com/dictionary/Intelligent%20Design Main Entry: intelligent design Function: noun
http://m-w.com/dictionary/creationism Main Entry: cre·a·tion·ism Pronunciation: -sh&-"ni-z&m Function: noun
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/scientific%20creationism Main Entry: scientific creationism Function: noun
As you can see, creationism and intelligent design have two different definitions. Intelligent Design is a theory that some sort of intelligence determined the design of some life forms. Creationism agrees with Intelligent Design but goes further and asserts that the designing intelligence, the creator, was God, and usually the God of the Bible. The Columbia Encyclopedia agrees, explicitly stating that the two are different: http://www.bartleby.com/65/in/inteldesgn.html The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05. intelligent design theory that some complex biological structures and other aspects of nature show evidence of having been designed by an intelligence. Such biological structures are said to have intricate components that are so highly interdependent and so essential to a particular function or process that the structures could not have developed through Darwinian evolution, and therefore must have been created or somehow guided in their development. Although intelligent design is distinguished from creationism by not relying on the biblical account of creation, it is compatible with a belief in God and is often explicitly linked with such a belief. Also, unlike creationists, its proponents do not challenge the idea that the earth is billions of years old and that life on earth has evolved to some degree. An individual scientist who is opposed to ID may give good reasons for his position of opposition, but he cannot simply determine what his opponent means by a word. He is not a linguist, who determines definitions of words, either. Slate Magazine, after interviewing scientists who are opposed and others who are in favor of intelligent design determined that that creationism and ID are different. This article was also run on National Public Radio as an audio piece (http://www.slate.com/id/2118388/). I have not seen any text quoted from the federal judge who ruled on the school board case, but he is a single federal judge making a ruling that applied to a specific legal case. He is not a linguist who can determine the socially accepted meaning of a term, nor the meaning attached to the term by those who originate and promote it. I want to note that some who are opposing me on this are using the forum to attack ID proponents (saying that practically everything they say is false, etc), comments that are not appropriate. Other comments about people murdering others, etc, have no place here...but the admins are not removing the comments. It seems that there is an air of confidence among the obviously anti-ID people here that the rules simply don't apply to them, or will always be conveniently interpreted in their favor...is that correct? I am waiting for a rational, clear, and direct response to the evidence and arguments I have placed above, without editorial comments about ID itself, which is not appropriate for this page. Matthew C. Hoffman 01:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Are you really going to force me to put a bunch of peer-reviewed references that prove this? And every other single statement in here?--Filll 02:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
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New discussion on NPOV
It doesn't matter someone's scientific knowledge to see that this is biased, you can tell by the structure of the page. How come in examples, we have criticism? To me, at least, the examples portion seems that it says "ID says this, but it is 'wrong' because..." Criticisms should be in a separate paragraph or a separate page, and should allow the reader to see the two opposing views in equal light. 63.3.5.130 00:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- See the following:
- NPOV: Pseudoscience
- NPOV: Undue weight
- NPOV: Making necessary assumptions
- NPOV: Giving "equal validity".
- An equal light is inappropriate. .. dave souza, talk 01:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
- You need to quote these articles to defend yourself, rather than just pouring out citations like anyone can do. I suggest that you read the Misplaced Pages entry on "systematic bias", because this talk page shows that in abundance. If the editors use the Talk page to engage in personal attacks, and to defend a certain position on the ID issue, that is itself evidence of bias and abuse of Misplaced Pages. This talk page, as I have pointed out in previous entries, is filled with such material. --Matthew C. Hoffman 16:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Block
I've blocked Matthew C. Hoffmann for 72 hours, due to his rather extreme refusal to assume good faith. Hopefully, this will let him calm down. However, he probably will have other things to say about this, so it's probably best not to take his silence as acceptance. Adam Cuerden 17:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
After discussion, we agreed he was a bit too knowledgeable of Misplaced Pages policy to be a newbie, so upped it to the indef block his behaviour deserved. Adam Cuerden 21:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Lead
The lead to this article is... not very good. Admittedly, I'm a bit out of it today, but I find it difficult to follow the lead, and am fairly knowledgeable on irreducible complexity, which isn't a good sign for those who don't know it. The major problem seems to be a lack of any coherent logical structure - the presentation of facts doesn't seem to fall into any sensible order, and the language is, well, as pompous and annoying to read as Behe himself. Which isn't a good thing, as anyone who read his Kitzmiller testimony will agree. Adam Cuerden 17:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
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