Talk:Freedom House - Misplaced Pages

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Please be aware a Freedom House employee is participating in this talk page. User 63.138.81.98 is in fact a Feedom House employee, see discussion below for details.

Archive 1 (up to May 25, 2007):

Propaganda

Obviously most the things that come out of this organization is propagnda, considering the Goverment is flipping the bills.

-G

Proposal for new section: Criticisms of 'Freedom in the World' report

The section on the 'Freedom in the World' report currently reads like it has been taken straight from Freedom House's own description of its methodology. I propose a new section critiquing the methodology - which is also the subject of criticism below (Freedom House's standards are somewhat 'elastic').

The section currently contains many references to various 'expert' sources, without qualifying whether these 'experts' are politically biased or neutral.

The main criticism of the methodology is that it has no objectively measurable criteria and therefore cannot be proved or disputed. In this sense the definitions are not 'scientific' and are open to political manipulation. Pexise 09:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Read Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. You have to quote sources. Numerous scientists use these rankings. If you are arguing that they are not scientific, you have to quote a source saying so.Ultramarine 09:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

OK will do, I'll find some sources - thanks for the advice. Pexise 09:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding your point in general, there is no objective, numerical way to measure political rights and liberties, like inflation or budget expenditure, there will always be some subjectivity.Ultramarine 09:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I would dispute that statement. Pexise 09:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

How would you measure it objectively?Ultramarine 09:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

A quantifiable measure could be used such as the number of cases brought before the Inter-American Court of Human Rights for, for example, limits to press freedom, harassment of Human Rights defenders and the number of precautionary and provisional measures granted. This would then be quantifiable and verifiable by an objective source, not specific to one organisation. Pexise 10:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

How do you measure limits to press freedom or harassment of Human Rights defenders objectively?Ultramarine 10:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to debate this point with me, please read what I have written. You can COUNT the number of cases brought before the Inter-American Court of Human Rights (or the relevant regional mechanism). This is one objective quantitative method that could be used. Pexise 10:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Measuring court cases is dubious, presumably richer nations have more educated people and lawyers who can take a case this far, while dictatorships like Cuba can make such attempts very difficult.Ultramarine 10:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a weak argument. This is not determined by how rich a country is - cases are normally brought to the court by civil society organisations. A measure of levels of civil society activity and restrictions on NGOs could also be used - once again using objective, quantifiable measures. Pexise 10:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

No, an important. How do you report or gather information from a dictatorship? How do you measure "levels of civil society activity and restrictions on NGOs" objectively? Ultramarine 10:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Please do your own research into these issues - I don't have time to explain all of these points to you. Levels of civil society activity would evidently be EXTREMELY LIMITED or NON-EXISTENT in a dictatorship - if it is impossible to measure these things then obviously you are not dealing with an open transparent state. You can analyse systems of regulation and laws governing NGOs, count the number and size of NGOs active in the country etc etc. This list goes on and on, I don't have time to explain it all to you. The point is that these are all quantitative, objective measures - Freedom House does not use these type of measures, instead basing its findings on 'scores' given by 'experts'. This leaves it open to bias, and it is not falsifiable, therefore it is not scientific. I don't have time to debate this with you any further, please do your own research/reading into these issues. Pexise 13:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The laws says nothing about how they are implemented in practice. The Soviet Union had a very nice constitution and even elections but was still a dictatorshp. Neither is the number of NGOs a reliable indicator. A dictatorship can easily claim to have numerous NGO's. Again regarding the court, how do you gather information from a dictatorship in order to resolve a case? How do you deal with the secret police who will punish your relatives if bring something to the court? There is no reliable objective measurement regarding such abstract things as freedom of speech, freedom of association, the right to participate in the political process, the presence of free media, academic freedom, freedom of religion, freedom for trade unions, independent judiciary, little corruption, respect for the rule of law, freedom of travel, and so on. Especially not when taken together into a final rankings.Ultramarine 17:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The point is that it is not possible to objectively measure all the things FH attempts to measure for all the world's nations. This will necessarily be a partially subjective judgemet. It can be verified it the sense that they provide long descriptions of the nations they rank, so one can judge for onself if their ranking is fair.Ultramarine 11:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention that this cannot be used worldwide and does not measure political rights.Ultramarine 10:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Once again, please have the courtesy to read what I have written: 'Inter-American Court of Human Rights *(or the relevant regional mechanism)*'. There are other ways to measure political rights - I have given you some examples of objective, verifiable measures as requested, please do your own research if you would like to identify measures for political freedom. I suggest that you could start by reading 'Democratization' by Laurence Whitehead. Pexise 10:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

No, you have not. The question is how you would replace the FH rankings with an objective measure, not only replacing them with a limited measure only looking at a few things in a few nations.Ultramarine 10:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

You can check their judgement, they give long descriptions of each nation and their reasons for giving these rankings in their report.Ultramarine 09:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I've looked at these and they are basically subjective reports. They also contain factual inaccuracies. Pexise 09:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

For example? Ultramarine 09:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Detailed descriptions of all nations can be found online in Freedom in the World 2006. Note that this is one year earlier than the most recent descriptions which are not available online.Ultramarine 09:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

This article contains biased information which is presented as objective argument

Defending Freedom House's 'elasticity' by pointing out that it criticised Pinochet, Saudi Arabia and Apartheid is laughable - would it have even one ounce of credibility left if it had not criticised these regimes?

Boliviainfoforum 21:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

A lot of people in the United States were not critical of Pinochet when he was President of Chile. I don't see the objectisism as biased. --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 19:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

urm, well, considering the organization is supposed to promote and support 'Freedom' and human rights, it would be ridiculous not to criticise him, he was a dictator who presided over mass torture and killings. Of course there are still people who think Pinochet was ultimately beneficial, but this would probably be based on economic grounds, not on his commitment to political freedom and human rights. (Pexise)

Also, what about apartheid and Saudi Arabia? (Pexise)

Deletion of relevant and properly sourced information by biased person.

I would like to pay attention to consistent censoring activities of user Ultramarine, who constantly deletes any criticism of Freedom House from these pages. He calls sources published in March this, 2007, year as outdated. Mister Krubbs 10:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You include material that state that the dead Jeane Kirkpatrick is on the board of trustees, quote from a tax form from 1997 (outdated and primary sources are not allowed in Misplaced Pages), and generally include information from outdated reports.Ultramarine 10:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have included citation, that "even at that time" meaning the reference not to current time. Therefore nothing here is contradictory. Perhaps you should read first. Second, what do you conceive under "outdated" sources? How are you going to label article dated March 2007 as outdated source? Moreover, information in the sources relates to the past events, therefore we could use "any" information that is pertinent to these "past events". Please, explain why you don't like personally this information. It comes from reliable sources. Why you attempt to censor out this information? A lot of information in this article is clearly written with POV bias using the words like "its major allies", "strongly criticized" and etc.

You are criticising activities decades ago, so it is outdated. Again, tax forms is a primary source, not allowed.Ultramarine 10:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Please, tell me if this article refers only to the last 5 days of Freedom House activities, or it refers to Freedom House? Second, could you give me internet link to specific Misplaced Pages rule that primary sources are not allowed?

Oh, I have looked at this Talmud of Misplaced Pages Policies and found that one internet link, with which you should familiarize yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/Primary_source.

ACriticisms of activites decadesa ago should at least be clearly marekd as such. Regarding primary sources, see Misplaced Pages:No original research.Ultramarine 10:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have read the first sentences of your link, just to understand that "original research" relates to material which is not supported by any source. Then, there is a section which explains what "sources" stand for and lists sources types as "primary, secondary and tertiary". Your given link only supports my opinion that all the materials in question should be kept in the article". Criticisms of past activities are well marked as there is a clear indication that in the "1980-ies" Freedom House lobbied against a resolution. Perhaps, you should care more about POV praises of Freedom House scattered in the article which do not clarify the time for which they refer?

Again, primary sources are not allowed as per W:NOR. Why did you delete much of the sourced praise without explanation? Ultramarine 10:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I repeat again, I have found no prohibitions of using documents there in Misplaced Pages. Moreover, I see that people use texts of Molotov Ribbentrop treaty text right here in Misplaced Pages. So you claim these guys violate Misplaced Pages policies?

Go ask them. W:NOR prohibits primary sources.Ultramarine 11:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I asked you first to produce a link confirming your opinion, you haven't produced such, now you ask me to do your job?

Link given, W:NOR. I do not want to dispute the treaty text, you do.Ultramarine 11:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as I have read it, I could tell this policy requires us to cite sources which may be primary, secondary or tertiary.

Misleading headers

Please, do not mislead and dis-attribute links. The material in criticism belongs to Diana Barahona and wasn't written by Monthly Review as you try to show. Your misleading headings amount to weasel words, designed in order to discredit the argument itself. Could we write then the Freedom House is being run by warmongers like Wolfowitz and Rumsfield then? Ultramarine, please be more objective to the article. There is a criticism of Freedom House and it should be published.

It an article in the magazine. If it was self-published it should be deleted. Why did you delete much of the sourced praise? Ultramarine 11:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Neither Rumsfield or Wolfowitz is on the board.Ultramarine 11:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Both of them are now former members of Freedom House.Please consider these links http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1346 and http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1390. So nothing is wrong here.

Not "being run" as you stated. Why did you delete much of the sourced praise? Ultramarine 11:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, this is not a praise, but an opinion on unknown academician. Could you substantiate it is notable PRAISE?

Could you substantiate that Diana Barahon is notable journalist, especially since she states material not in the source she gives? Ultramarine 11:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well we publish the mass media in which the source was published in the reference, don't we? Which specific "sourced" praise was deleted by me?

Writing in National Review Online, , a research professor at the George Washington University’s Elliott School, states that

Freedom House has unwaveringly raised the standard of freedom in evaluating fascist countries, Communist regimes, and plain old, dictatorial thugocracies. Its annual rankings are read and used in the United Nations and other international organizations, as well as by the U.S. State Department. Policy and aid decisions are influenced by Freedom House’s report. Those fighting for freedom in countries lacking it are encouraged or discouraged by what Freedom House’s report covers. And sometimes — most importantly — their governments are moved to greater effort."

Miller nevertheless criticized the organization in 2007 as not paying enough attention to slavery in its reports. Democracies such as Germany and India, but mostly repressive regimes, needed to be held to account for their lack of enforcement of laws against human trafficking and the bondage of some foreign workers, he wrote.Ultramarine 11:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I highly doubt that this could be described as a praise. It is rather an opinion of some academician. Who is he? Do we know in which science branch does he specialize?

More credible than Diana Barahon. If excluding him, the same applies to her.Ultramarine 11:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Could you substantiate your claims. Please give a source which tells that John R. Miller is more credible than Diana Barahon?

Please give a source that Diana Barahon is more credible than John R. Miller.Ultramarine 11:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean now. I have told you if you want to make your point please produce to us a source telling that Miller is more credible than Barahona.

It is you who are arguing that the academic Miller should be exclude but the journalist Barahona included, so it is up to you to produce a source showing her to be more credible.Ultramarine 11:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Especially since the material she claims is nowhere in her source.Ultramarine 11:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I said that his words are not a praise, but point of view. You may create a separate sections for opinions on Freedom House. Could you take a look at http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/barahona030107.html? All the information is contained here, I don't understand what bothers you.

She states material not in the source she gives. See source 7, has no relation to the material she writes in the article.Ultramarine 11:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

There are no links to source 7 in Criticism section. Please pay your attention that I have corrected previously wrong link to 7th source.

Source 7 in her article.Ultramarine 11:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have told you that you don't even care to read the articles. Here is the relevant passage: "U.S. Role

After the Soviet invasion in 1979, the U.S. focused its efforts on supporting the mujahedin with a massive, $3-billion covert aid program channeled mostly through Pakistani military intelligence".

Please, first read, and don't make noise.

There is nothing there regarding her claims about Afghanistan Information Center, neoconservative at time, Trilateral Commission, and so on.Ultramarine 11:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You may create a separate article, if you like. But as for now, why are you so passionate over such a minor detail as criticism? Are you an employee of Amnesty International? I have cited sources. Are you going to fight the sources?

She seems to invent much of her material. Why are you including her and not the academic Miller?Ultramarine 11:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Look, using the same approach, I could tell that everything in this article is invented. So please, relax. You could create a separate section entitled "opinions" and publish you revered academician there.

No, I have shown that she invents material not in her sources. So you agree to including Miller? Ultramarine 11:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Please support your claim that Barahona "made false accusation" with sources. I have agreed on creation of a separate section entitled "Opinions on Freedom House" in which you could publish Miller.Mister Krubbs 11:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have shown that source 5 and 7 in her article has no relation to the material she writes. (The only ones I bothered to check, since you cite her claims regarding this.) So we can include Miller in the praise section? Ultramarine 11:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You are not a source in Misplaced Pages, right?

Misplaced Pages allows checking of sources. Please answer me regarding Miller.Ultramarine 11:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages allows publishing sources. Misplaced Pages doesn't regulates checking of sources. Journalists have the right not to disclose their sources, right?

Misplaced Pages does not allow unreliable sources. Journalists can, as all people, voice their opinion, but if unsourced or misusing sources, then it is not a reliable source. Please answer me regarding Miller.Ultramarine 11:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have answered to you about Miller. What else do you need? Miller voiced an opinion, which is not a praise automatically.

How is this not a praise? Again, why are insisting on including material from persons who invents their claims? Ultramarine 12:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well now the only false claim here is yours. You haven't proved anything here on sources. You have linked to NOR which allows publishing primary sources claiming it doesn't, you have inserted a hell number of false statements in the article and you have inserted original research statements in the article. And you have the courage to state that some source is inventing his claims? You need to get a life, man.

Read Misplaced Pages:No Personal Attacks and Misplaced Pages:Civility. I have shown that the person you cites have invented this material which is not in her sources. Again, why are you insisting on including this? Regarding Miller, do you oppose it in the praise secdtion?Ultramarine 12:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

If nothing else, Barahona can't read a press release, which knocks her credibility down a bit. In the first sentence of her article, she claims that Freedom House has offices over 120 countries around the world. Besides that seeming silly on its face, her source for it is a press release that clearly states that Freedom House has a *staff* of 120. The fact that she makes such a blatent mistake in her first sentece makes it harde to trust her other research, I think.63.138.81.98 17:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Question to Ultramarine

Ultramarine, please tell us if you are an employee of Freedom House?

No, are you user:Vlad fedorov?Ultramarine 11:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have included his justified texts, which you have deleted without any valid explanations. But this doesn't makes me him. Ok?

So would you agree to a checkuser request? Ultramarine 11:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Would you agree to checking your IP first?

Regarding what?Ultramarine 11:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

That you are not interested person. From Freedom House, or Paul Wolfowitz office...

I am not. Anyway, I am considering a request for checkuser anyway if this continues. If you are Vlad Fedorov, this will probably lead to your ban being extended.Ultramarine 12:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well you haven't answered to the question why a man, Ultramarine, who is so pro-democracy is fond of deleting rightful criticisms from the articles?

You mean the person who invents her material as per the section above? Ultramarine 12:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

She wrote her article based on her sources.

Her sources has no relation to what she writes.Ultramarine 12:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Ultramarine claims that Barahona invented her sources

Ultramarine please state here you claims.

See source 5 and 7 in her article . No relation to what she writes, citing these sources. That is the criticisms you quote. (I have only bothered to check these two of her sources.)Ultramarine 12:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I want to take a break. Let's continue tomorrow after having studied the sources thoroughly. By the way she is not required to source all of her statement, isn't she? Or general prosecutor required her to disclose all her sources like in Libby case?

Fine with me, I will just add a disputed template meanwhile to the section. State here if you diagree. I have also checked your third quote from the report. She cites a 1997 tax form but then makes claims regarding the future with no sources. Is she psychic? If she does not cite her sources or makes false claims regarding the sources, she is not a reliable source. Ultramarine 12:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Barahona

Could you please explain in the article who the hell Barahona is or create an article about her. Now it looks really silly. According to redlinked Diana Barahona, ... Colchicum 18:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Notes on text of article

It seems that the key point of contention around the Freedom House article focuses biases in the article centered around a real difference about how Freedom House is viewed in the world. If I may make a couple of suggestions:

1. In the organization section, perhaps we want to make a division between current board members and past board members. A complete list of current board members can be found at: http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=10 Former board members such as Huntington, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, and Kirkpatrick can be listed seperate as "Past board members have included..." This might reduce some of the controversy surrounding the date of information.

2. Perhaps make the "Regime Change" section some sort of subheadline of activities instead of a section of it own? The header seems overly inflamitory for the nature of the paragraphs... it implies that Freedom House is out overthrowing countries, while the text doesn't really support that.

3. I feel that the main text of the article pretty accurately presents a pretty baseline view of Freedom House and it's activities. Readers can decide for themselves if the fact that Wolfowitz used to be on the board makes Freedom House a neo-con organization. The area that seems to be causing the most contention is the critisims section. In my opinion, the critizism section suffers from the problem too heavily quoting sources which may or may not be properly sourcing their statements, or may be out of date, which leads to lengthy debate like the one yesterday regarding the validity of Barahona's article. To resolve this, I suggest that instead of extensively quoting particular critics, the section be revised to say something to the effect of "Critics of Freedom House claim that the organization's ratings are influanced by their financial ties to the US Government, that they are neocons, etc." (summarizing the major critizism) and then follow it by point users to the specific articles (such as Barahona's, the VoltiareNet peice, and Justin Raimondo) allowing readers to evaluate these sources themselves to determine if it is properly sourced, out of date, etc.

Factual corrections (I don't edit this article, so...)

1. Freedom House no longer has an office in Poland or Bosnia (Organization section).

2. Freedom in the World did not begin publication as a book until 1978, though they were publishing findings in a bi-monthly journal since 1972 (http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=351&ana_page=298&year=2006 History section) 63.138.81.98 18:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason to link to or quote what is a completely unreliable source, as per W:RS. If some other more reliable critical sources were cited, then they should of course be included. But we could certainly regardless mention the general criticisms, like funding.Ultramarine 18:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I will fix the facts above.Ultramarine 18:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Recent reverts

See long earlier discussion above about the Barahona. Unless some good arguments is given, I will shortly remove this unreliable source.Ultramarine 20:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Monthly Review is a reputable publication, so its a reliable source that we can use for attribution. Note that it says 'according to...."--even its its own section---so it doesn't matter if you disagree with her research and what she claims, it only matters that the source supports the claims and we report what the source says, using language that properly attributes the claims to her and the source.Giovanni33 18:59, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Her sources does not match at all the claims she makes using these sources. Often the statements seem to be completely invented.Ultramarine 19:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Considered "neoconservative" even at that time, the group's trustees and associates were affiliated with the State Department, the National Security Council (Jeane Kirkpatrick), the CIA (through front groups), the U.S. Information Agency, the Trilateral Commission (Zbigniew Brzezinski), the Center for Strategic and International Studies, the Committee on the Present Danger, Accuracy in Media, the American Enterprise Institute, Crisis, The New Republic and PRODEMCA, a group that raised funds and lobbied for the Contras. During the 1980s, Freedom House also formed the Afghanistan Information Center, one of several NED-funded groups supporting the mujahedin. This was to complement the government's US $3,000 million covert funding program for the anti-Soviet groups.

"According to Freedom House's IRS Form 990, prior to 1997 its government funding was in the form of "government fees and contracts," presumably for work performed on behalf of the State Department. After that year, however, the funding was qualified as "grants." But with neoconservatives such as Kenneth Adelman, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Otto Reich, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Samuel Huntington, Zbigniew Brzezinski, and Malcolm Forbes Jr. on the board of trustees, there was no danger the organization would change its ideological course.

It championed NATO abroad but supported liberal causes at home, condemning the Ku Klux Klan and McCarthyism and sharing its New York headquarters, the Wendell Willkie Memorial Building, with the NAACP, the Anti-Defamation League, and the Metropolitan Council of B'nai B'rith. Field retired as executive director in 1967 but served as secretary to the board of trustees until 1970. In the 1970s and 80s, Freedom House lobbied at UNESCO against the New World Information and Communications Order, an attempt by Third World countries to create media systems that weren't dominated by First World corporations and governments. During the 1980s, the organization began to receive a majority of its grant income from the newly created NED (founded by Congress in 1983), and contracts for Latin America far surpassed those for Eastern Europe

These are the three paragraphs now quoted in the article and the notes she gives. One can click in the notes to go to the original source. As can be seen, most of what she writes is not mentioned in her sources.Ultramarine 19:29, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand your point, but the author is allowed original research--she doesn't have to cite all her claims. You can write her and ask what her sources are for the claims, and that might be interesting to add those sources in here, but as long as she makes these claims in a published reputable source, as she does, we can use it, and cite what she says here.Giovanni33 21:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Then at the least this should be mentioned. Also, authors in reliable journals are certainly not allowed original research.Ultramarine 22:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we can mention that as it add bias. Including the link and the publication should suffice to give the reader information about the source. Reliable journals regularly use original research, esp. ones that are investigational.Giovanni33 22:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

NPOV certainly require mentioning this, do you want Misplaced Pages to spread invented material? No reliable journal invents its stories. That is a contradiciton. In normal journals or newspapers this will probably lead to the journalist or writer being fired and the journal or the newspaper publishing an apology.Ultramarine 22:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

But you have not established that any of the claims were invented, or that any of the claims are not valid, deserving a retraction, apology, etc. If you write the author and she admits she just made the whole thing up, then you would have a point. Saying, that she doesnt show her sources, and that you dispute her claims, is not enough, for warrent introducing bias against this authors claims. However, if you have a published source that does take issue with her work, then you can site that. This is how NPOV works.Giovanni33 04:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I have shown that the material she writes can not be found in her sources.Ultramarine 05:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

And, I've explained to you why that doesn't matter per WP policies. I've looked at the article and to me it seems well cited, and sourced. But that is moot, since its a publication and she is making the claims--supported enough or not according to you---its valid for inclusion here. I also don't see a basis for both disputed tags. Where is the argument that what is being cited in the article does not reflect what the source/article actually says? If you can not show that, then that tag you placed should be removed.Giovanni33 05:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

See my examples above. Misplaced Pages should use reliable sources.Ultramarine 05:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I did look, but saw nothing that answers the question or supports your tag. Monthly Review is a reliable publication. Lastly, why do you insist on adding "socialist" Monthly Review? Should we go around and label "Capitalist" all publications which are so? The publication is linked so there is no need to throw labels on it, which I think has more of a prejudical effect in adding bias than for whatever valid purpose you are inserting it. Care to explain how your adding that makes its presentation more neutral?Giovanni33 06:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, I have shown that the material she writes can not be found in her sources. Three are lost of clearly incorrect things like including a dead person in the current board, Jeane Kirkpatrick. Lots of Misplaced Pages pages certainly uses attributions like right-wing, conservative, etc.Ultramarine 06:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, you seem to be missing the point. Your argument above is that she invents her claims, that her claims are not supported by what she cites, etc. That is not relevant, and completely separate from the tag you placed, which states that the the text does not match to what the source says (her article). Please show where in the article's text in WP does it not match what the article in MR says? Unless you can show that, there is not basis for the tag. Calling publications "right wing" likewise introduces bias. Saying that its done on other articles is not a valid argument to do it here. WP is not consistent and two wrongs don't make a right, or else its a violation of WP:POINT.Giovanni33 06:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

How does it create a bias to have an attribution? Again, her text is clearly incorrect, she states that a dead person is currently on the board.Ultramarine 06:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Atribution is given by the title of the publication and its with a wiki link. Bias is added by adding an ideological label to it. Again, her text being incorrect or not is not the point. Your tag says that the WP article does not accurately cite what the text says. Unless you address this point, then I will remove your tag as invalid. This is at least the 3rd time I've raised this point, and yet each time you have failed to address it, instead bringing up a red herring.Giovanni33 06:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly what policy is violated by stating "marxist", "repulican", "conservative", or similar terms? You can find these term used in this way in every newspaper. I will remove one of the tags.Ultramarine 06:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Its general NPOV principals. We never want to purposefully intoduce any bias, and then when we do, we want to make sure its outweighted by some complelling, positive reason. Adding ideological labels has this negative effect as it tends to add a possible prejudical effect, so that is why I oppose it--esp. when the we have an article that the publication is linked to. I wont edit war over this but I'd like to seek a 3rd person opinion about this question.Giovanni33 06:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

My next comment is moved to the left for readability.Ultramarine 06:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that you try to change policy to stop Misplaced Pages from using such informative attributes. But I do not really understand your argument. Are all newspapers biased when they use terms such as "republican" or "socialist"? Ultramarine 06:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I too feel that the quality of research in the Barahona article is not very good... she makes a pretty obvious mistake in the first sentence, and seems to be drawing conclusions that aren't always supported by her sources. For example, she claims that Freedom House was supporting opposition groups in Venezuela, but her source for that, Freedom House's spokesperson, doesn't say that Freedom House is supporting opposition groups; she says that they are supporting human rights defenders, which are different things.

My problem with including it is different from Ultramarine's, however. I'm less concerned about the bias and sourcing of the article, and wonder more about if this particular article deserves three paragraphs worth of space. I feel that the same goal of presenting her criticism can be accomplished without basically rehashing her article. That Freedom House has had prominate neo-cons on their board is well established; so is the fact that they receive a notable portion of their funding from the US government (it is clearly stated in their annual report). As that seems to be the main point about the paragraphs from the Barahona article, why can't you just say that Freedom House gets money from the government and has conservatives on its board, and this concerns some people, using Barahona as a source for that statement? That removes some of the question about the quality of the Barahona article, without removing the substance of the criticism.

63.138.81.98 17:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Good points. I think it can be trimmed down, to make her points more sucinctly, as long as we don't white wash her concerns and claims.Giovanni33 02:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I would prefer a more accurate source and the origin of the funding is already mnetioned. Maybe we could add "has had prominent conservatives on its board." Agree that the MR article, even if it was reliable, has undue weight in the article.Ultramarine 21:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Dear user 63.138.81.98: Why don't you make explicit you work for Freedom House? Anyone can know this anyway by using the WikiScanner tool (http://wikiscanner.virgil.gr/). Don't pretend to be an unbiased editor, because you are not. The Barahona article is very relevant to this page, and your arguments against it are feeble. Please be honest, its part of what Misplaced Pages is about. Schizophonix 10:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

See full comment below. I am not saying that the Barahona article isn't relevant; just that it isn't very good and the substance of her argument can be presented without re-printing her article on wikipedia. 63.138.81.98 17:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Where's the comment? And what do you say about the accusations that you are a Freedom House employee? Should you really be contributing to this section? Please respect Misplaced Pages, its purpose and ethos, and don't use it as a propaganda tool. Pexise 18:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry; I hadn't finished writing it yet... I should have done that one first and this one second. 63.138.81.98 18:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Excessive use of Primary source

The section Organization has an excessively large quote from Freedom House itself. This constitutes a Primary Source and I would therefore question whether it belongs in the article - if a reader wants to read what Freedom House says about itself, they can visit Freedom House's website or consult their literature. See WP:NOR and WP:PSTS: "Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about." "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source." "Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources." Pexise 17:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The sourced material is not a primary source. "Examples of primary sources include archeological artifacts; photographs; historical documents such as diaries, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, trials, or interviews; tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires; written or recorded notes of laboratory and field experiments or observations;" NPOV requires the inclusion of all views, FH's view regarding itself is certainly one.Ultramarine 18:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

"Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about." Pexise 18:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

See again the examples of what primary sources are. FH is not close the to the nations they evaluate. They use primary or secondary sources for their reports, they are thus a secondary or tertiary source.Ultramarine 18:48, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, this quote is too POV, it is basically FH's propoganda trying to convince that they are independent etc. If you are going to include it, it needs an alternative POV aswell. Otherwise it should be deleted to maintain NPOV. Pexise 15:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

If you can find a reliable source with another POV, then please add this. If you cannot find this, then that is not an excuse for deletion. NPOV is not an equal space policy. For example, the Flat Earth theory is not given equal space.Ultramarine 16:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Ultramarine: I think you got a bit confused here. By no means are the reports of FH a secondary source. "Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about." In an article about FH, FH's own publications constitute primary sources. If the article was about "countries of the world" then the FH's reports would be secondary sources. I hope this is clear. So, basing an article about FH solely upon the articles published by FH is clearly contrary to the Wikipedias NPOV guideline. This is not to say that primary sources should be deleted, but that "any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source". Which means that primary sources should be treated as testimonies and not as facts, and their extension should be limited. Remember that this article should be about FH, not by FH. So I would agree with Pexise that this section is not up to the Misplaced Pages standards and it needs correction. Schizophonix 10:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Changed the color in the map

I have changed the color for "non-free" countries in the map from red to blue for two reasons:

1) It is blue, not red, on the original Freedom House map on their website.

2) Red is reminiscent of political maps and the color of communist countries, which is not relevant and partially misleading here.

I was not able to change the original file (since my account is not old enough) Freedom_House_world_map_2007.png, so I called it Freedom_House_world_map_2007_blue.png . If some of more reputable users here agrees with this change, please change the original image and revert the link on the page to it. The legends on other pages might need changing after that. No dae 13:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Since there are several of graphs and tables in other articles using the same color, it will be confusing to change them only on the map.Ultramarine 18:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Blue is an awful color to describe unfree countries, because classic colouring schemes have always put blue/green as “good”, yellow/orange as “concerning” and red as “bad”. In the case of Freedom Hpuse ratings, I think reddish tones are better suited for “non-free” countries.

NPOV

Not sure why the label is up.. but if people are complaining about a lack of criticisms I have compiled a list. Many of these do not seem notable enough to include. Others may seem 'highly speculative', but this is why we attribute the author, explain their background, and make sure that the criticism is notable. The point to keep in mind is that if notable and reliable/verifiable criticism exists, Misplaced Pages aims to outline it. A reader should be able to garner a critical view of the organization which they are reading about (this doesn't have to attack the credibility of the organization, just document a certain level of it).

The main crux of these arguments seems to be that Freedom House is a right-leaning organization which is willing to push democracy through alleged controversial means. Further, Freedom House recieves grants from organizations within the government which have the also push democracy through alleged controversial means.

Compiled list of sources:

Positions of officials

Western criticisms

Other criticisms

Related organisations

USAID
- The Family Jewels documents confirm that the CIA furnished "instructors to a USAID-sponsored Technical Investigation Course (Counter-Terror) at... " (Family jewels, page 218). The documents revealed the existence of a concerted USAID-OPS course concerning training of foreign police officers (about 700 a year) in handling of explosives, etc. (Family jewels, pages 600-603)

--68.21.94.56 01:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

These should definitely be added to the article in order to address the NPOV problems. Pexise 23:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

My main goal was to assess the tag and the source of the criticism. The next thing to do would be to identify which of the sources to work in the article. The majority of the Western criticism section and some of the Other criticism section look alright. The related organisation material would only be useful when attributing Freedom House's funding while the position of official's section is just documenting controversial positions taken by former FH officials (though, criticism was probably generated by these comments, we have to document criticism, not add our own).

So, I think I see what to do, but I don't exactly see how to do it. Other articles generally have a criticism section for this information while it tends to be spread out all the way through this article. I'm not exactly sure where this material would belong in the article. It could be inserted in 'criticism and praise' but it really just doesn't flow wherever I look at. --68.21.94.56 14:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the Western criticism and other criticism can certainly follow at the end of the criticism and praise section, or be integrated into the section. The criticism of the methodolgy section earlier in the article refers specifically to the Freedom in the World report, not to the organization itself. Pexise 23:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Since I have not seen anyone willing to write this part, I took the initiative and read most of the articles proposed, and added 3 or 4 paragraphs in the "Criticism and Praise" section. I tried to be as balanced as possible and provide counterarguments to most criticism. Also I document everything I have written, I did not include original reasearch. Which is to say I did not include my opinions. I think the article looks much better now, the first time I read it seemed totally uncritical, merely a reproduction of Freedom House's self-description. No wonder considering that part of the article was written by FH's employees. Feel free to add to the praise and criticism section, but please do not take anything off without a good cause... Schizophonix 10:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Great work - much improved - it's vital to deal with these criticisms in the article. Pexise 12:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Might I suggest the addition of material from the book 'Murder in Samarkand', by Craig Murray, the former British Ambassador to Uzbekistan? Page 248 of the paperback version references a lunch with the head of Freedom House in Tashkent, Jennifer Windsor: "She said... there would be a change in Freedom House's operations in Uzbekistan. She explained that a number of influential members of the board of Freedom House approached these issues from a vantage point on the right of the Republican Party, and they had expressed concern that Freedom House was failing to keep in sight the need to promote freedom in the widest sense, by giving full support to US and coalition forces in the War on Terror. I asked what this meant in practice. Jennifer said that it meant they would be stopping 'advocacy': that is to say that they would no longer be making public statements on human rights in Uzbekistan or publicising individual cases of abuse." Palecitrus 12:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes - excellent quote from a very solid source - please add it to the criticism section. Pexise 19:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

!! Freedom House employees infiltrated in this talk page...

Use WikiScanner (http://wikiscanner.virgil.gr/) and put "Freedom House" in the first box... Interestingly it will lead you back to this talk page, plus a handful more... All contributions made anonymously from IP address 63.138.81.98 are written by Freedom House employees... And the common point all these contributions have is that they try to convince us that Freedom House is an independent, unbiased, humanitarian, non-governmental organisation that works for the progress of humanity, while the truth is that it is a 95% US government-funded organisation that has been used as an instrument of propaganda since at least World War two and the subsequent Cold War. Enough said. Schizophonix 10:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I would not say that I have "infiltrated" this talk page. I purposefully did not mask my IP by registering a username, and posted from work instead of from home so that it would be clear to anyone who cared to check that I was posting from Freedom House. You will also note that I have not made a change to the main article in almost a year and half, since I first discovered that it was against Misplaced Pages policy for employees, etc. to edit articles. I have explicately stated that I do not edit this article, leaving it to other editors to determine if my comments are worthwhile, and have informed other Freedom House employees of Misplaced Pages's policy to help ensure that we do not violate this policy through lack of knowledge. I continue to comment on and monitor the Misplaced Pages page because, as a Freedom House employee, I have access to and knowledge of information that can be helpful, as well as greater awareness of factual changes (such as new office locations or changes that to the membership of the board of trustees) which I can communicate to the editors to ensure that the article reflects the most up-to-date information.

I recognize that Misplaced Pages strives to be an non-bias source, and that, as a Freedom House employee, I am inherintly bias. As an individual, I have thoughts on the content of this article just like any other individual would. As a Freedom House employee, I would prefer that articles such as the Barahona piece are not mentioned, because I disagree with their conclusions (I find hers in particular to be poorly researched, factually inaccurate, and misleading). However, I recognize that they are valid Misplaced Pages sources and present alternate points of view, and you will notice that I did not advocate that it be completely removed. I have put great thought into presenting my information and perspective in the most non-bias way possible, and have left it to other editors to determine if my points are worth encorporating into the article. I have not disputed their decisions, and feel that my behavior has been appropriate. 63.138.81.98 18:09, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, this has certainly confirmed all of my suspicions about the way Freedom House operates. Pexise 18:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

May I ask what your suspicions were? One of the reasons I really value reading these Misplaced Pages discussions is because I really do think it is worthwhile to see what other people think of us.

I will note that Misplaced Pages's Business FAQ and conflict of interest guidelines state that people with conflict of interest are encouraged to use the talk page to discuss changes, which is what we have done. http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:SCOIC 63.138.81.98 18:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, as a start: my personal area of expertise is Latin America and so I am very aware of the effects that US intervention and interference has had on the region - I am also very aware of the role that US propaganda has had in these interventions. I have seen the recent FITW report and find the scores to be completely arbitrary. In fact, they seem to follow much more closely 'Freedom' in terms of which countries have signed Free Trade Agreements with the US than any reasonable interpretation of political freedom or human rights (there are obviously one or two exceptions which would have been impossible to avoid). That the organisation professes to be concerned with Human Rights and political freedom - extremely important areas of work - while it is actually a covert promoter of US economic interests I find to be morally repugnant. What is more, I have read some of the country reports which make up the FITW report and have found outright lies and complete inaccuracies contained therein. I could go on. Pexise 21:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

While obviously I disagree with your conclusions about the accuracy and motivations of our reports, I recognize that our reports can be controversial. If there are specific inaccuracies you know of, please do send them to info@freedomhouse.org. I am not in charge of editing our publications, but I will see that they get forwarded on and reviewed. Thanks for your observations; the Misplaced Pages talk page is probably not the place to discuss this further. 63.138.81.98 00:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Freedom House's employees, now, after you have been revealed, you are saying you are following Misplaced Pages policy to discuss the article. Yes, Misplaced Pages policy says that. But also the policy says to avoid to edit articles related to you. At least one time, you have done that, deleting an entire paragraph (18:39, 24 May 2006 63.138.81.98) criticizing your organization without any prior discussion. I'm bringing that up to show all neutral editors here, who wants improve the article, to be aware of such things.--ClaudioMB 22:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm also wondering, why an employee from Freedom House keep discussing this article for months or years without saying about his/her conflict of interest? There is no problem an employee from any institution try to improve an article about his/her institution. As long he/she does not edit the article, or disrupt other editors work, should be welcome. But, it will be better if we know who you are. Regards. --ClaudioMB 23:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

First, as I noted in my original message, I was not originally aware of this policy, and when I found out, I ceased making changes on the main article page. The particular change I made that you mentioned had been discussed on the talk page, and I explained why it was removed (it was inaccurate... it said that Freedom House did not disclose its funding source; Freedom House's funding sources are outlined in the annual report which is available on the website.) I will note that change was made over a year ago, before I was aware of the policy.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had disclosed my affiliation with Freedom House up front. I was not attempting to hide that I was working for Freedom House (which would have been very easy to do, simply by posting from home or by registering a user name.) I did not make it explicit because, given the strength of feeling that many people have about Freedom House on both sides, I wanted to ensure that the debate was about the accuracy of the article and not the merits of Freedom House's policies. 63.138.81.98 00:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I am happy there has been a response and debate over the issue. First of all, I should say that editors who edit a single-issue from a single point of view for a great length of time are bound to raise suspicion. I mean you either have an extreme POV and too much time in your hands, or you are an "interested editor" who is paid to do this. That is what made me look up WikiScanner (http://wikiscanner.virgil.gr/) in the first place. Of course, as you mentioned, it could be easy to just register or edit from home. Second, I recognise you have not edited the text in a long time, but keep in mind that according to Misplaced Pages conventions you are not a qualified editor. Third, and most important, I insist you were infiltrated in that page, because you never revealed your status as a FH employee and you were writing about FH in the third person ("they") instead of the first ("we"). This is called astroturfing and it seems to me as an attempt at deceiving the rest of the editors. Fourth, in no way am I arguing that you should not participate in the discussion. Your contributions to the talk page are more than welcome. All I ask (all Misplaced Pages asks) is transparency and honesty. I have a feeling that this article has been written from a single POV, and only recently have there been changes towards a NPOV stance. And I think there are still issues to be resolved. Schizophonix 13:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

To the first three points, I will say that it was never my intent to be misleading. If it came across as such, I apologize. However, I reject the description that has been placed at the top of the talk page saying that I "infiltrated the page" and consistently pushed a pro-FH point of view. All the definitions of "infiltrate" imply moving in on an enemy with hostile intent. My intent was never hostile, and Misplaced Pages is an open forum. As far as pro-Freedom House point of view, if you actually read my comments, I have consistently advocated for a fair inclusion of multiple points of view and acknowledged that Freedom House itself is not a non-bias source. I don't feel that my contributions to the talk page bear out this description.

To your fourth point, I would welcome a return of the discussion to the quality of the article. As I described in a post about a year ago, I think the biggest problem with the POV is that the nature of Freedom House's mission, activities, and conclusions is something that produces disagreement. Obviously, Freedom House has one POV, and users like Pexise have a differing POV. It is difficult to describe what the organization does without one side or the other claiming that the article is unfair. I think that we should attempt to divide things that are undisputed facts (founding date, office locations, board members, funding sources, etc.) from Freedom House's description of itself and from other people's opinion and interpretation of its actions. It seems like the primary problem (and I assume what you mean by the single POV comment) is that the top half of the page draws heavily from Freedom House's description of itself.

Here is what I would split out as opinion descriptions vs. fact descriptions:

1. Mission Statement/Introduction- I reviewed about half a dozen other wiki articles on think tanks, human rights organizations, and non-profits. It seems that the standard introduction paragraph is "Organization is a this-type, that-type organization that defines it mission as "Quote from the mission statement", followed by founding date and location. It seems like instead of reprinting the mission statement in its own section, we can put it into the introduction.

2. History- After the first sentence, I feel like the history section quotes extensively from the Freedom House website. I'm not sure how best to correct that, however, if someone wants to look over this: http://infoshare1.princeton.edu/libraries/firestone/rbsc/finding_aids/FH/#hist it might help. I'm not sure if that would be counted as original research, however.

3. Organization- The first three paragraphs seem fine. Someone else can decide if the fourth is necessary. What may also be useful here is to do a brief description of activities (the first paragraph of the other activities section, and the 6th paragraph of the reports section, with a mention of Freedom in the World added.) That seems like it would sum up the more clearly fact based material.

4. Other activities- I feel like most of this section is fine. I'm not sure why the regime change paragraph is there, though. It seems kind of random.

5. Criticism/Praise- With the exception of moving some of the Freedom House self-description that is currently elsewhere in the article down here instead, it seems like this section does a pretty good job of summarizing major pro and anti-freedom house arguments, and has already been edited pretty extensively.

Thanks! 63.138.81.98 16:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Freedom House not founded by US government

Freedom House was not founded by the US government. Recent edits to the article state in two places that it was. Saying that it was founded by the US government implies direct action on the part of the US government, either in funding or in promoting the creation of Freedom House, which did not occur... Freedom House did not receive sustative government funding for the first few decades of its existance, and while it was founded by individuals who were sometimes connected to the government (like Eleanor Roosevelt), it was not founded on an official action of the US government. If no source is presented, this should be reverted. Thanks! 63.138.81.98 18:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

"Warning" at the top of the page

I believe that the warning on the top of the page regarding my participation on this talk page is inappropriate. The details of my affiliation with Freedom House has been discussed in detail on the talk page itself, and users who are concerned with that can read that discussion. I have made a good faith effort to follow the Suggestiong for COI compliance ], and have explained my actions on this page. You will note that the recommended method for other editors to deal with COI does not include posting a message at the top of the talk page. I feel that in particular the language of this warning is inflammatory; the use of the word "infiltrated" implies bad faith on my part where none has been shown, and I do not believe that my comments bear out the statement that I have pushed a pro-FH point of view. I respectfully request that it be removed. Thank you. 63.138.81.98 17:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Right - I've changed the language, but the comment should stay - the fact that you are a FH employee is very important and new editors could miss the discussion about this. Also, the fact that you were not honest about this in the first place and an editor needed to identify you using an esoteric piece of software makes this notice necessary. Pexise 12:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for making the language more neutral. 63.138.81.98 16:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

^ Miller, John R., "Does 'Freedom' Mean Freedom From Slavery? A glaring omission.", article in National Review Online, February 5, 2007, accessed same day