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Thursday December 26 05:25

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It seems you have attracted a fan club/shadow/stalker. --Tbeatty 05:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn’t be the first, and unless I turn into some mega wussie, it wont be the last. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 14:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Protected

Due to the rampant edit warring, I've locked your user page. If you'd like me to make an edit onto the user page, let me know. MessedRocker (talk) 01:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

My name on your user page

Just to make crystal clear - I would be very grateful if you would please remove the link to my userlinks and contribs on your user page. Thank you. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

What's the objection exactly? Deleting these links yourself or enlisting others to delete them seems abusive even bizarre. No idea how or why 3 people showed up to help remove these links from someone else's user page. What's inappropriate about linking to other users or their edit histories? There's not even any commentary offered that could be construed as incivil. Many people use their user space as a sort of scratch pad for keeping track of important links. For example you yourself seem to have some precisely analogous links on your talk page. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 02:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Nice to meet you, fourdee. In any case just to be clear, I didn't touch TDC's page. It's his page and he can do what he wants. And indeed, I'm aware of the use of userlinks for these sorts of situations, as I believe I made clear on MONGO's page . The links on TDC's page to select edits of mine are from an ancient dispute (October 06), left there and now irrelevant. Accordingly, I removed the corresponding links of TDC's notable behavior from my own page back in February, 3 months after the dispute ended. The userlinks there now (to Ribo) are for a more recent event (June 07), where it looked like a user was trolling TDC. Those links are due for me to scrub soon (next archive, I imagine).

If you want a complete breakdown, here you go.

TDC and I had a dispute in October '06, stemming from an exchange on Military Commissions Act, during which time I started tracking a few of TDC's edits that I saw as tendentious or intentionally disruptive . He then acted capriciously, taking notes on my notes in kind . That's his right. Despite my removal of the notes after the conflict had gone stale he has not yet removed them 10 months later, preferring (I think) to leave them up because he believes it bothers me.

It doesn't. I was content to ignore it - since as I've said before, drama is boring.

But when MONGO removed the other userpages' links I asked him if he would intervene with his colleague TDC and help to remove them as well, on the same principle he stated. He acted unilaterally (and I appreciate his boldness) and others have objected - so, 'presto'. More WP edit warring. Yawnsville Central.

In any case, I hope that clears it up for you. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Can't say it makes any sense to me at all. You say it doesn't bother you but if it didn't I daresay you'd ignore it rather than asking MONGO for help in getting it taken down. A watchlist of editors seems to me to be a perfectly appropriate sort of scratchpad to have on one's user page or talk page and unilaterally deleting something like that which is being used by the editor in the course of their work on wikipedia seems to be at best vandalism. In fact I could use something like this myself, seems like a very convenient way to do it. Some people edit from different computers or prefer not to use bookmarks or other storage outside wikipedia and I'd say this is quite a bit easier to use. From what you say you have a habit of this very behavior yourself and that's perhaps where TDC picked it up? Now you are complaining about it because you object to the the duration of it? I'd say the best thing to do is just ignore it and let it rest, and perhaps stop doing it yourself. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 02:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

If you are determined to object to my point of view, there's little I can do to stop that. However, I hope that's not the case and you actually would prefer not to be 'devil's advocate' if the facts don't warrant it.

If you carefully re-read the information I provided for you above I think you'll find the comments you just made were already addressed:

• Yes, it's a useful practice for conflict resolution (see MONGO talk page link)
• Yes, unilateral deletion of content from another user's page is not appropriate (and I have not done so here)
• Yes, TDC did it after he saw me do it, specifically in retaliation for my note-taking. Noting notable edits for users with whom I engage in conflicts is not my 'habit', it is, as you say, a 'useful practice'.
• No, It doesn't bother me. Again, I only asked MONGO to help because TDC is his friend and the links are getting on a year old (and TDC hasn't maintained any other such links for other users despite numerous ongoing conflicts). The duration isn't the reason I mentioned it. That (plus the lack of any other such links) and MONGO's new policy were all reasons to ask for MONGO's help. If he'd simply asked TDC to remove them that would have been fine too - since again, I really am quite content to ignore the links for another year if TDC doesn't remove them.

Thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure he'll consider his friend's request to remove them. However, there is some considerable conflict between your assertion it doesn't bother you and your repeated explanation of why it does bother you. Perhaps we're having a language barrier but objecting to something and it bothering you mean basically the same thing to me. Similarly you said the "duration isn't the reason" in the sentence immediately after you explained that the duration was the reason. "Getting on a year old"... "duration isn't the reason"... "Don't bother me"... ""... I'm thinking maybe I need to add a link to your contribs to my page because if this sort of equivocation is a problem for you it must crop up frequently. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 02:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Emphasis isn't clear - duration isn't 'THE' reason is what the sentence is meant to express. By asking if I am "complaining about it because you object to the the duration of it?") you seem to miss that I made quite clear in the very next sentence that there were a few reasons to ask MONGO for help with his colleague these 10 months after the fact, given his decision re userlinks today and his friendship with TDC.

And given TDC's name and his self-described reputation as an 'internet troll' , being actually bothered by TDC's non-content-related behavior is the last thing on my mind. Such user trolling is pretty easy to spot . ;)

So now we don't disagree on WP policy, the incorrectness of MONGO's unilateral removal, or the utility of userlinks.

What do we disagree about? While my comments have been clear regarding my motives, you seem very determined to orient this conversation away from these issues of agreement to a dissection of what you claim my feelings to be (rather than the actual issue at hand, which is whether TDC will maintain these links or not). Since I can't continue without feeding your 'fait accompli' that the more I elaborate the more bothered I am, I won't bother :) , except to say this has been an actual laugh, and that it's nice to 'meet' you. :) :) -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah...TDC...can you take down the links...I can detail all this if you want, but I'm rather tired now...--MONGO 02:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ryan, might I remind you that this entire shit storm began when you decided to begin posting links to my edits on your userpage and involving yourself in a third party dispute.

If you wanted me to remove them, you could have asked nicely (as you have done now). I have not been avoiding this, as I usually don’t edit from home and stop once I leave work. There is no reason to involve anyone else who was not a party of the original debate (but thanks for everyone’s involvement, seriously) and do onto me what you would like done onto you.

I will remove (or anyone else can if I am not available) the links, and consider this matter closed. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 13:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

As will I - thank you, TDC. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 13:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Gamaliel

I think you made your point, probably best not to antagonize further. I am recommending to him that he either ignores you, or takes up the discussion on the appropriate discussion pages. I don't think it's inappropriate to point out inconsistencies in policy application, I've done it myself. But it's best to make your point, and then let it go. Be the water. - Crockspot 20:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

: I hope I have made my point, and hopefully, perhaps Gamaliel will recognize it. Thanks for playing referee, BTW. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

A "significant" campain issue that went nowhere. I cannot beleive that you would argue so hard on this page for the inlcusion of material like this, but fight so hard on another page for the exclusion of the cape wind project. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 22:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I didn't "fight so hard", I removed it once or twice and then went on to other issues while other editors dealt with that article. Not sure why you keep bringing that up, other than a desire to make this editing dispute personal. Your judgement that this campaign issue "went nowhere" should not be subsituted for reliable sources which conclude this issue was significant during the campaign. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 19:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Didnt fight so hard ehh.. , , ..... anyhoo, there was a very good reason I brought it up. To some of the less experienced editors here your actions could be viewed as hypocritical, even biased. I just thought that you would like to opportunity to impress upon the dozens of editors on this page who disagree with you on this subject, that you do have a good reason for your actions, and that your actions and motivations are applied with an equal degree of jurisprudence on every article you edit, from the “lion of the Senate” to Tom Coburn. See, if you dont explain why you are acting the way you are on this page, some less experienced editor might even think that you are trying to WP:OWN this article, and we cant let that go unchallenged. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 02:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I have removed your comments as they serve no other purpose but to attack some minor edits on another article. If you have a problem with my edits there, take it up on my talk page or on the talk page of that article. If you have a problem with my edits in general, start an RfC on me. But I will not allow you to use this talk page as a forum for your personal animosity. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 21:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, they serve a very important purpose, and it has nothing to do with any "beef" you think I have for you, so please don’t attempt to divine my motivations. Other editors of this article might like to know why you would apply one standard to one article, and another standard on this article? While these articles are “different” in that they cover different topics, all guidelines and policies apply equally to both of them. WP:BLP, WP:WEIGHT, WP:NPOV apply just as much to this article as they do to Ted Kennedy (or Joe Scarborough for that matter). So, I ask you again, why is material that would not be fit for one article you edit, be fit for this one? Its a legitimate question, and answering it could go a long way in easing this dispute. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 02:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

You've attempted to make this dispute personal from the beginning, so your motives are quite easy to divine. If I am wrong, then all you have to do to prove me wrong is stop bringing up irrelevancies from my edit history. I stand by all my edits and I will defend them, but in the appropriate forums, not here and not as part of your blatant attempt to personalize this dispute by inventing claims of hypocrisy. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 14:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

RFC

I'm writing to let you know that Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Commodore Sloat has been resolved and archived. Thanks for participating. Bigglove 23:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocked

After processing your report at WP:AN3RR, it's clear to me that you and the user you reported are both edit warring. Given your history of being blocked for 3RR, I've blocked you for 1 week. As always, you can request an unblock with {{unblock|your reason here}}. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 22:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Re:Your concerns: I looked at Xenophrenic's block log and saw that he had received blocks before, but that the most recent one had been immediately undone, while the first was rather unclear as to how 1R parole had applied. If you have some information about this user that would make it clear to me why he/she should be blocked for longer, please tell me. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 03:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

See the checkuser and associated RfArb.

Yes, that does change things a bit. I've reset Xenophrenic's block to coincide with yours. However, please note that you were in fact edit warring. Your edits did in fact revert: many of them did more than just undo Xenophrenic's edits, but they did nonetheless have the effect of reverting. This is still edit warring. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 03:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Talking things out and attempting to modify text would seem to be a much better faith approach to an article dispute than rolling over another users edits, with each and every edit Xenophrenic made. Removing disputed tags (when there is clearly a dispute) is a form of vandalism. The only edits Xenophrenic makes is when he is edit warring. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 03:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree that this block seems very excessive.--MONGO 05:20, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Y	Your request to be unblocked has been granted for the following reason(s): To keep things equitable, as Xenophrenic has recently been unblocked. Request handled by: Heimstern Läufer (talk) 03:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

I have decided to take your case at Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-09-07 Mark Lane (author). I would like a short statement from you--Phoenix 15 13:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Are you satisfied that the case is closed. If so, I can close it and you can go about finding another source--Phoenix 15 19:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

DU

I don't understand why you created Talk:Depleted uranium/temp health section and then proceeded to start chopping sections out of the main article. The last major edits to that section were made by User:Massimamanno from Italy who claims a Ph.D. in physics. I am not opposed to changes, but you did things like change "other studies" to "Indeed, most studies" without any reference to back that up. ←Ben 19:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I am only chopping bad sections out of the article, as I am not sold on the temp idea. Want me to put a dozen links to back that statement up?Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, just find a single reference that says "most studies have shown that DU ammunition has no measurable detrimental health effects, either in the short or long term" -- or even a single source that says it has "no measurable detrimental health effects." Even the ones that say it's harmless still mention kidney problems with enough exposure. That statement is just totally biased and wrong. ←Ben 21:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

based on credible scientific evidence, there is no proven link between DU exposure and increases in human cancers or other significant health or environmental impacts IAEA. Good enough? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

No, "significant" is a qualification, not as strong or even the same as "no measurable," and there's no "most studies" in it either. I doubt the FAQ was even peer reviewed. As for James S, no, neither he nor anyone else has ever communicated with me about DU. ←Ben 22:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You broke 3RR

I don't report people for 3RR because I think it's a silly rule with uneven enforcement, but I want you to know unless anyone else feels like reporting you. ←Ben 21:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not revert you with the last edit. It was a different section. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you know that WP:3RR forbids undoing the work of any other editor, "whether involving the same or different material each time." ←Ben 21:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Changing (not deleting) a months old edit, rife with factual errors is not a reversion. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Really? How long does a word have to be an in article before changing it is not a revert? ←Ben 21:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Changing one word in an article is a RV? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think so. Ask on WT:3RR if you don't believe me. ←Ben 22:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

A revert is to undo all changes made to an article page after a specific time in the past. The result will be that the page becomes identical in content to the page saved at that time. However, in the context of the English Misplaced Pages three revert rule, a revert is defined far more broadly as any change to an article that partially or completely goes back to any older version of an article.

There has never been a version of this article like this, the orginal content is still there in some form, but this is not worth the arguement. And how is the first edit a revert? I have never seen it interpreted this way. I asked someone, and will go with his opinion, whatever it may be. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 22:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this thread is misplaced. 3RR is a tool that we use to prevent edit-warring, but violating the rule is not the evil; edit-warring is. If either of you is edit-warring, then you both are, and the proper course of action is to stop editing the article and take it to the talk page until a consensus is achieved. A third opinion or a request for comment may be necessary, but futher reverts probably won't help.--Chaser - T 22:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Communist terrorism article

Hi, TDC. Would you be interested in improving article Communist terrorism? It does not mention even Red Brigades. I also left a couple of my notes at the talk page of "Communist terrorism" article. What do you think?Biophys 20:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Alliance for Progress

Opinion is sought on the question of a lengthy (and in my opinion, undue weight) Philip Agee quote as well as the question of Latin American dictatorships in relation to policy. 129.71.73.248 23:18, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

BenB4 has new account?

I've recently been trying to work to remove POV material from the Instant Runoff Voting article, and BenB4 had been very active there making sure that any information possibly damaging to the campaigns for Instant Runoff Voting was kept of the site, while at the same time protecting unsourced and POV claims in favor of IRV. My opinion, of course, but it was pretty blatant. Anyway, someone came in and started using reverts (a dozen in a day) to remove a whole series of edits of mine, including ones where I didn't think they would be controversial; this user had no login, and no legitimate claim made for a reason for the edit, and there was no discussion as far as I could see. BenB4 defended the anonymous editor (we know who he is in the real world from other evidence, including he left his IP out in the open by posting anonymously, and his style of writing and detailed knowledge is a dead giveaway); I made a 3RR complaint, which was apparently not understood and was ignored. I was not complaining about an edit war, but about the use of reverts abusively. I'm not here to bring you into that, but if it interests you ....

I'm here to note that a new user appeared two days before BenB4 said "au revoir." And suddenly dives in where BenB4 was before, including acting and arguing in the same way for the Instant Runoff Voting article, but also can be seen to have other interests as well that match, too many to be a coincidence. Clumsy. You'd think he'd at least wait a few days!

Special:Contributions/Acct4 'Nuff said. Except I have a question. Acct4 is shown in his log as having created another user account, andy R2. What is that? Is that identified from IP?

I'd make a request for check formally, but ... I'm overwhelmed. But if you think I should take this on, I'd try. I'd have a lot to learn.

I am so glad to know that there are people working on keeping Misplaced Pages fair, open, and neutral. It's crucial. Thanks.