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The Protocols
Hi! I've fixed navigation bar. If you'll need any help with the template you can ask me and I'll see what I can do. And thanks for the barnstar. M0RD00R18:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I guess the difference is that (<br />) is in XHTML and (<br>) is in HTML. I really hope that explains something to you, because it does not say a lot to me :), because I'm absolute n00b in any of those languages myself. M0RD00R17:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Archived
I've archived everything except the material above. Hope this is what you expected. If not, let me know and I will undo it. Banno21:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
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Hi Ludvikus, I contributed to a discussion on this subject. I hope you will accept this in good faith (from a fellow new-user): there are no policies on conduct there - it is pretty well up to you to adopt the tenets of good faith. It is different to this place, I suppose you are becoming aware of that. I look forward to your contribs, here and there. Regards, Cygnisinsignis19:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I endorse most of your position, I am unconcerned if you have not considered the tract older than it is. Nor am I assuming a firm positon, I want to communicate two things to you. Please heed the suggestions made by others, it will not be solved yesterday - slow down. Secondly, have you ever considered that your energy promotes the document as much anything? Regards, Cygnisinsignis20:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to hear some more from you. I'm aware of what happened in 1903, 1905, 1906, ..., 1920, ..., but am unaware of what you meant by Ancient Times (I'm paraphrasing you). Could you explain? Peace, --Ludvikus 14:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I moved the comment here, source is a library. It shares a common theme with other libraries; if you talk too much, a very stern looking person will come and say one word. Or point to a sign with that word displayed - with an exclamation point! Am I being too obtuse, am I beating around the bush - well, yes. I want you to happen on the answer yerself ... As for forgery scholarship, I'm not going to add energy to that. Your misquote (paraphrasing), is a reference to several documents to emerge in europe, prior to the revolution. If you want the information that will show the document you are serving is an feeble adaptation of this, I can forward the scans of the literature. I estimate this will be around $45 US dollars in my costs, no charge for my labour. Alternatively you can go and look it up at a library. Don't forget to note the tranquil atmosphere, and the effect your persistent questioning has on the people there. Cygnisinsignis18:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Morning Post
Talk page apparently got lost during the moves. Currently it is here . Now administrator needs to delete current talk page to make a room for a move. M0RD00R14:44, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
OK. But why hide behind your new pseudonym? You are misleading others into believing that there are more than one editor who subscribes to your position! --Ludvikus22:40, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Who's hiding? My signature is linked to my user pages. I've been using that signature for years now and I don't feel any obligation to change just because some people don't understand the mechanics of Misplaced Pages. I have considered changing my username to my signature, but it is too inconvenient to type the ≠ symbol. I think most editors don't have a problem figuring out the connection between signatures and usernames. older ≠ wiser23:09, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Umm, no. That is not at all the case. Please compare the revision history of both pages. I've presented a simplified timeline on my talk page. older ≠ wiser03:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I noticed that you added this report to WP:AN/3RR. Now, I understand why you placed that there, but that isn't quite the proper page. I'm actually not sure exactly where to put it, but my best guess would be on WP:AN/I, the Administrator's noticeboard for Incidents in general. Regards, You Can't See Me!05:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Amazing article, thanks! Someone (non-identified dipper-in) has removed your sentence about Lacey's comment. If instead of saying 'it is probably true that...' you simply wrote 'Lacey states...' then no-one could argue with the statement or its suitability for WP. However I can't see at a glance who Lacey is, and that statement would want a footnote. All the best, Sedgefoot06:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not, and would not, call another another user a Jew-hater on Misplaced Pages. However, I am not responsible for the "suggestions" that come out of the use of antisemitic expressions. --Ludvikus15:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Don't bother answering both places. As I already said elsewhere: Yes, you are exactly responsible for those "suggestions", and the next one will be your last. --jpgordon15:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
For a Wikipedian who says that we are responsible for our "suggestions" why do you suggest a threat above? Are you trying to scare me? What do you suggest by "the next one will be your last"? You and I know each other as Wikipedians. I am completely surprised by your use of such an uncivil expression. It clearly suggests a threat. Do you not see that? And it is provocative and inflammitory. It is not the way for one to get someone to conform to Misplaced Pages rules. And I am especially surprised that it comes from you, whom I recognize as a Wikipedian for some time back. Please clarify yourself. Are you trying to scare me with that suggested threat of yours? --Ludvikus15:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Scare you? I guess so; if fear of being blocked will stop you from making personal attacks, then that's what I'm intending. But perhaps appealing to your desires will work better: If you desire to continue editing Misplaced Pages, you need to stop suggesting anti-semitism on the part of those who you are having edit disagreements with. --jpgordon16:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
That's much, much better, JP. Thanks very much for your clarification. Much appreciated, Cowboy Gordon - you look good sitting on your horse on your Homepage. But should I have said "high horse" and "get of of it"? --Ludvikus16:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I would like you to try to delete the Original research on it. I maintain that Misplaced Pages requires that we state what scholars said - it's not a place where Wikipedians should speculate "Why so many Jews were Bolsheviks." Thanks. --Ludvikus00:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't see the antisemitism in the article.
I have this feeling that you see the term Bolsheviks as being pejorative. Is that the case ? I am a secular Jew and have no more problem with being referred to as a Bolshevik or a communist even though that is not how I would describe myself. Do you have the same problem with the moniker Jewish philosophers or Jewish celebrities. ? Danny Weintraub : Albion moonlight07:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
You're completely mistaken. The fact is that Jewish Bolshevism is an Antisemitic expression, and historicall speaking, it was used so exclusively; it has no Marxist, Communist, or Bolshevik meaning whatsoever. Do you not know that? --Ludvikus10:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
No, that is a new one on me. But I intend to do a bit of wiki and google research on it. I want to know how widespread that view is. I do know that a lot of Jews hate anything remotely similar to Marxism, especially Stalinism . Albion moonlight 23:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC) Danny Weintraub. : Albion moonlight06:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
You mean: "One Jew is to many"? Are you really Jewish? Would you have liked to work as Stalin's assistant? Do you like the cold - would you mind living in Siberia? How many Englishman are Stalinists, any why? Do Frenchman love Stalin? Are these questions important? --Ludvikus12:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes I really am Jewish but your implication seems to be that you believe your assertions about Jewish Bolshevism being is common knowledge. I do not believe that it is common knowledge. If you believe that it is perhaps you should create a request for comment on the articles talk page. I think that once you realize that it isn't common knowledge even amongst Jews you may change your mind and realize that you may be pushing a Pov.
If you referred to the other editors as being antisemitic you are guilty of making a personal attack on other Wikipedians and should apologize. If you did not make such an accusation then you may have a legitimate complaint. If you moved an article without consensus then you broke a rule. I have done nothing to deserve your ire. I hope you manage to work things out with Jpgordan. : Danny Weintraub : Albion moonlight15:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
re. Troll
The thing is, an internet troll on wikipedia is just an internet troll on wikipedia. We don't need a Troll (Misplaced Pages) article. The header text about wikipedia trolls should be more than sufficient. Apologies if I came across as impolite- you may find that a bit of politeness/smarminess can come in handy to get around stubborn people when editors who are particularly idealistic about wikipedia get dragged in. Not that I've actually learnt that lesson by now. Nimmo11:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I've just been wading my way through policy pages, and I can't find anything explictly stating what I believe I've seen a number of times in admin descisions, which is that self-referential pages talking about Misplaced Pages are heavily discouraged. If you feel that there needs to be more information on wikipedia trolls, a link on the internet troll page to WP:TROLL might be the best option, if you're willing to defend it. Apologies for the talk page mess, hope you have a good day. Nimmo12:05, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Ah yeah, that was a bit of vandalism on the part of my mates while they were a bit pissed that I mirrored to my userpage. Could look a bit suspect. Have noticed that merge discussion before, probably will take another look later. Nimmo13:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that a stub type for antisemitica is not viable. The permanent categories should suffice for that. Would these go under history, or perhaps just non-fiction? Why wouldn't they be political? Her Pegship (tis herself)20:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I understand that these works fall into the category of controversial literature. What I don't know is which of these stub categories would be more appropriate than Category:Political book stubs:
If you wish to propose a new stub category and template, please follow the following procedure:
Check at Category:Stub categories to make sure that your proposed new stub does not already exist.
List it at the top of the current month's section, under a header, like the ones shown (if any). Sign it with a datestamp (~~~~).
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Find a good number of stub articles, as many as you can, that will fit that tag. Each of these articles can be:
currently be marked with stub;
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I've got no opinion on whether this list should exist - I've nominated it purely procedurally to get a consensus before you start expanding it, as - while it's certainly a potentially valid list - there's also potential for it to become a permanent edit-war battleground, and I'd like to get a broader consensus before you - or anyone else - start adding names to it. — iridescent(talk to me!)13:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I've replied more fully on the AfD discussion so others can see it - the problem's not with the people who undoubtedly would be included, but with the permanent "George Bush once joined a golf club that didn't allow Jews, that makes him an antisemite" POV edit warring that's likely to stem from it — iridescent(talk to me!)14:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Even if that qualification regarding an incident you describe would be deemed as antisemitic, no one in their right mind would say that "George Bush was a notable antisemite," or that he was a "notorious one." Substantial antisemitic conduct is the intent of the qualification. A "hymie" remark (you know who I mean) is insufficient to qualify someone as notable or notorious on the issue. --Ludvikus14:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
These are not areas of a particular interest to me. However, I appreciate that homosexuals get abused, and convicts often suffer undeservedly. But are we goung to give in to the irrational? As encyclopedists we have an obligation to the truth. You are not yet making any headway with me with your suggestions, or implications, that we exercise self-censorships because we're going to be unable to defend ourselves against all the idiots in the world. Best to you, Ludvikus15:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Conversion to Category
You might want to run it past User:BrownHairedGirl - in my experience, she's generally the best judge of whether a category or list is likely to be viable or be deleted, and what changes if any need to be made. As Category:Antisemites has already been deleted, you may get opposition in recreating it. (Incidentally, while I currently live in London, I'm not a "fine British chap" but an expat New York Jew.) — iridescent(talk to me!)16:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Well than, if you tell me your age, I'll tell you if you qualify for membership in an organization I'm thinking of forming. It will be called the Elders of Zion - antisemites maybe gave us a good idea which we may have overlooked. Do you think we could create such an entity? It's aim, of course, would be world domination.
Category:Notable or notorious antisemites
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Listed here are individuals who played some notable role, or a notorious one, in history, literature, or publication.Please note that mere incident(s) involving some apparent antisemitic conduct or speach is insufficient to qualifythe inclusion of a person on this list. Please be very careful in your selections. Remember also that this is nota place to make your own personal judgments. Neither should it be a place or space to libel or slander a living personwith whose views you strongly disagree. Nor is it a place to list someone who exercised poor judgment in the choiceof words on a particular occasion.
Pages in category "Notable or notorious antisemites"
There are 10 pages in this section of this category.
A
Arthur Cherep-Spiridovich
B
Boris Brasol
F
Henry Ford
G
G. Butmi
H
Reinhard HeydrichHeinrich HimmlerAdolf Hitler
L
L. Fry
P
Pavel Krushevan
W
Nesta Helen Webster
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/Category:Notable_or_notorious_antisemites"
Category: Antisemitism
As a matter of fact there was a confusion as to a Category, or an Artcle. I wanted the former, and it exists now. The Former generates a List automatically. So all's well now. --Ludvikus17:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I know that category creates a list but the problem is it will not take long before someone nominates this category for deletion, I'm afraid. Similar category was already deleted once. And having word "notorious" in the title will not help. This is why I suggest changing the name to Ideologists of antisemitism for instance. M0RD00R17:18, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:425px-Naciones_Unidas_3_repaired_and.png.png. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Misplaced Pages articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Suggestions on how to do so can be found here.
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Check again. I only touched up the UN (WW II) image (it was damaged). I think it's pre-1923. But somebody else found it before me. So do your research further please. --Ludvikus11:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but we also have manslaughter, which is not as bad. We need to distinuish between a "hymie" remark, and the work of Adolf Hitler. Without the distinction(s) the vother Wikipedians will have it deleted!! --Ludvikus15:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
If you want to reply to me, please copy your msg to my page, I almost never check other user pages for messages for me. I am not sure I understand your point. There are notable antisemites that belong to Misplaced Pages and sad unnotable individuals who don't. We don't call the notable notable in categories since we would have to insert it everywhere.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Removal of nominations for deletion is considered vandalism. Please don't do that again. And nominations for deletion are never signed on the article page. If you had gone to the CfD page, you would have seen my signature, and that my nomination was not capricious. Corvus cornix17:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Listen, Asshole, it was a mistake on my part for which I've apologized to you on your Talk page. Where have you been - on the Moon? Instead of wasting time on this shit, why don't you pay attention to the discussion there, at the Deletion proposal cite? Furthermore, my mistake was corrected a while ago - probably when you were asleep. --Ludvikus17:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Since both pages have a history, other than being a redirect of each other, the move can only be done by an administrator. The naming of the template is not a huge issue, though, as it's not usually user visible, and thus I think, for the sake of simplicity, having the name without quotes, is probably the better way to go. Regards, -- Jeff300014:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
If you had not edited the original page after you had moved it to the page with one quote, I would have been able to move it back, but at this point you need to ask for administrator help, possibly at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. The Template, while related to the book, is about a whole bunch of ideas (since it is included in many pages) and thus does not need the quotes for simplicity. A very small minority of people will see the title of the template, so just keep it simple and ask to have it moved to the page with no quotes. Regards, -- Jeff300015:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Please consider Misplaced Pages's rules on canvassing. Deletion discussions are not polls, so votestacking is a disservice to your cause, especially if it is determined you are canvassing to influence the results. / edg☺★00:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
OK. I've read the rule. You're mistaken in it's application to me. I've contact that One editor who has actually Used this Category. Accordingly, unless he knows that it's up for Deletion, his use of it is meaningless. So you are mistaken. --Ludvikus01:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I've checked the Rule. It seems that you're mistaken in its application to me. It is not an Absolute rule. In fact, it's very clear that there are circumstances in which canvassing is proper, and good for Misplaced Pages. Please reconsider you're observation. --Ludvikus01:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Please note carefully the exceptions to the general rule - and examine more precisely what you believe I did wrong. Thereafter I expect you to get back to me with an appropriate Wikipedian response. Thank you, --Ludvikus01:15, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm familiar with these rules, and telling an editor how to vote in a deletion discussion is fairly blatant canvassing. The category does not seem to be created by Wedineinheck. What exception do you claim? / edg☺★01:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Nonesense. He's using the Category. You are being Pedantic. We are not in front of a USA voting booth. The guy is a User of the Category. He clearly believes in it. So you are playing with formalities. I'm not Telling him how to Vote. I'm telling him that he will not be able to Classify his characters under that Antisemitic Category unless he Votes Not to Delete. Cann't you see the point. The guy is already Converted User of the System. So are you going to Split Hairs with me? You are simply Wrong, and I hope you can admit it.
And if you insist on splitting hairs - look carefully at the word "multiple". Contacting One Editor is not Multiple. Or what do you think? One editor is the same as Multiple editors? --Ludvikus01:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Soliciting a vote from someone known in advance to favor a certain outcome is blatantly votestacking. I'm not really interested in arguing this. I just wanted you to be aware that you may be crossing a line. / edg☺★01:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your opinion. And after carefully studying your view, I've come to the conclusion that I've done the right thing. And for the record, here's the first part of the Wiki rule your concerned with (showing the footnotes):
''']''' is sending messages to multiple Wikipedians with the intent to influence
a community discussion.
<ref>Any kind of solicitation may meet this definition, including, for example, a custom signature to
automatically append some promotional message to every signed post.</ref>
Under certain conditions it is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, but messages that are written
to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process and
are generally considered disruptive.
This guideline explains how to notify editors without engaging in disruptive canvassing.
<ref>On at least one occasion, a provocative attempt to stack an ongoing poll by cross-posting has contributed towards
an Arbitration Committee ruling of disruptive behavior that resulted in probation and eventual banning by the community.
An arbitrator clarified the position: "Briefly, I think a reasonable amount of communication about issues is fine.
Aggressive propaganda campaigns are not. The difference lies in the disruption involved.
If what is happening is getting everyone upset then it is a problem. Often the dividing line is crossed when you are
contacting a number of people who do not ordinarily edit the disputed article."
See ].</ref>
A hard and fast rule does not exist with regard to selectively notifying on their talk pages certain editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view, in order to influence a vote. However, the greater the number of editors contacted, the more often this behavior is engaged in, and the greater the resulting disruption, the more likely it is that this behavior will result in warnings and/or sanctions. Some Wikipedians have suggested that informing editors on all "sides" of a debate (e.g., everyone who voted in a previous AfD on a given subject) may be acceptable.
Therefore, Ludvikus did not break the rule in its literal sense, but, as a general rule of "Wikiquette" telling a user to vote a certain was in a discussion is frowned upon. To explain further, the message was only placed on one user's talk page, so it is not canvassing (at least described word-for-word in the canvassing policy), but it is something that is generally looked upon with differing degrees of dislike. Had Ludvikus placed the message on multiple users' talk pages, then it would be a clear violation. As it stands, however, while Ludvikus did not violate the policy, I suggest that they refrain from posting messages like that on talk pages. Hope that's clear enough, and happy editing, ( arky )02:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I appreciate the Rationality that Misplaced Pages is producing. First of all, I had no idea of the existence of this rule. And I'm glad to have learned of it this early. The principle I operate under is Fairness - which is at the basis of all systems reflecting any degree of Justice.
Now back to my point. I think it is consistent with the Canvassing rule at Misplaced Pages for me to contact any editor who is now actively using the Category:Notable or notorious antisemites. And that telling such an editor to Vote to Keep is certainly not Disruptive. It is absurd to think that by so saying I'm influencing that editor. Such an editor obviously believes in the legitimacy of the Category - otherwise why is (s)he using it? --Ludvikus02:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, now that I think of it, it is perfectly OK for me to go to the Talk page and Solicit Votes - to Vote to Keep the Category - or does anyone advise me not to do so? If not, why not? --Ludvikus02:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
