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Featured Article
Is it possible to bring the Principality of Sealand article back to Featured Article status? This article was a featured article and was "Today's Featured Article" for 28 December 2005. Also, this article is a featured article in 2 other languages, so this task should not be too difficult. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 21:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- It should be possible, with the right amount of work, to achieve that outcome. I'm not quite sure why it was un-FA'd; there's always been a small clique of editors who have a problem with micronation content generally, so it might have had something to do with that. --Gene_poole 02:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Preposterous. If you'd take the time to look, you'd see that at the time the article was defeatued, it had a mere eight citations and was riddled with {{Fact}} tags. Pagrashtak 05:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well there are 32 citations in there now, and the anti-micronation POV-pusher Wik has been permanently banned by Jimbo, so presumably once the few remaining fact/cite tags are dealt with, a new FA nomination should be a breeze. --Gene_poole 06:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Which remaining fact/cite tags need to be dealt with? I suggest placing a list here including all fact/cite tags that need to be dealt with, and after a fact/cite tag has been dealt with, it can be removed from the list using the <s></s> wiki markup. Once all fact/cite tags have been dealt with on this article, it can be nominated for Featured Article status. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 18:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well there are 32 citations in there now, and the anti-micronation POV-pusher Wik has been permanently banned by Jimbo, so presumably once the few remaining fact/cite tags are dealt with, a new FA nomination should be a breeze. --Gene_poole 06:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Preposterous. If you'd take the time to look, you'd see that at the time the article was defeatued, it had a mere eight citations and was riddled with {{Fact}} tags. Pagrashtak 05:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is a list that I created including all information in the article that require citations. If no citation can be found the information can be deleted from the article. Use <s></s> wiki markup to show that a citation has been added to the article. Once completed this article should be able to be nominated for Featured Article status.
Paddy Roy Bates, a British subject and pirate radio broadcaster, who ejected a competing group of pirate broadcastersDefended this claim on at least one occasion: in an incident in 1990, the Royal Maritime Auxiliary vessel Golden Eye was fired upon from Sealand.- There will be a trial in the Ciudad Real (Spain) provincial court against a man selling Sealand passports.
- Roy and Joan Bates have been referred to internally since the foundation of Sealand as "Their Royal Highnesses Prince Roy and Princess Joan of Sealand"
- Roy Bates is styled "Sovereign", and Joan Bates is sometimes described as being "in joint rule" with him.
Michael Bates's son James, who was referred to as "Prince Royal James".As Sealand is not a recognised country, the Bates family officially travel internationally as British citizens.- He stated that his only legal recourse was to sue Roy Bates in a British court of law
Accepted without surcharge and passed by Belgian postal authorities into the international postal system at that time.Although recent examples exist of mail bearing Sealand stamps and cancellations, to the exclusion of all others, being transmitted through the international postal system.Sealand has many non-Sealanders acting as official national athletes, including mini-golf and football.- A Canadian University student is in negotiations to represent Sealand in International Amateur golf events.
Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 22:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Instead of making a list here, you may find it easier and more productive to act {{Fact}} to the statements in the article. Pagrashtak 22:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- All the statements above already have {{Fact}} attached to them in the article, I created the list after they were attached by other users. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 22:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The list below shows all information removed from the article because no source could be found:
- There will be a trial in the Ciudad Real (Spain) provincial court against a man selling Sealand passports.
- Roy and Joan Bates have been referred to internally since the foundation of Sealand as "Their Royal Highnesses Prince Roy and Princess Joan of Sealand"
- Roy Bates is styled "Sovereign", and Joan Bates is sometimes described as being "in joint rule" with him.
- A Canadian University student is in negotiations to represent Sealand in International Amateur golf events.
If sources are found, then they can be added to the article, but as long as there is no source, I don't see why this information should be in the article. Most of the information in the earlier list did have sources, so I added citations.
Now that all fact/cite tags have been dealt with, I am nominating this article for featured article status. It now has 39 references, 31 more than when the article was demoted, and citations that were required have now been added. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 17:37, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
This article needs more references, supporting all the claims that are made. This will significantly improve the article's chances of being promoted. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 21:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence
Before this article's status as a featured article candidate ended, there was some confusion as to whether the article's first sentence ("The Principality of Sealand is a micronation") is correct. Here is what was stated:
- Thanks for your changes, but I'm still not happy, even looking at the very first sentence: "Sealand is a micronation". The sources (except the Sealand News) do not support that. It's within British territorial waters. Their argument may have held when Britain's limit was 3 miles, but now it's 12 miles, the court rulings would probably be quite different and if they try broadcasting a pirate radio station again... DrKiernan 14:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- The Principality of Sealand does not see itself as a micronation, nowhere does it officially state that it is a micronation. When the Principality was founded, its territory was in international waters. It was founded before a law was passed by the UN stating that nations cannot be founded on platforms, and it was founded before the UK extended its territorial waters limit from 3nm to 12nm. The British and Sealandic territories therefore border eachother near the British coast in the North Sea. Sealandic territory must be considered because the Principality has many laws supporting its claim to sovereignty and has been recognised many times over throughout its history. Therefore, even if the UK does not recognise this, the Principality is not in British territorial waters and the court rulings during the time that the Principality was not in British claimed waters support this. I agree that the first sentence is misleading, micronation seems to be what the Principality was labelled as just because it has never been "officially" recognised by the UN or the UK. Some people consider it a micronation, and others a microstate. The problem with using microstate is that there are people who will argue that the Principality is not a country, and would sooner base this on their own opinions rather than legal facts. I suggest replacing micronation with microstate as legally (using facts which Misplaced Pages requires) it is a nation, but whether that edit would stay I can't guarantee. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 22:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- I have found a reference that shows that the Principality of Sealand does see itself as a microstate, and not a micronation. The reference can be found here. Therefore it is incorrect to state at the top of the article that Sealand is a micronation - the first sentence has to be changed. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 22:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- What it sees itself as is a matter of note - but is also largely irrelevant from the perspective of taxonomy. What it actually is, is an ephemeral statelike entity - ie, by definition, a micronation. That is how virtually all reliable external sources refer to it. --Gene_poole 14:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- But there are those who do not consider it a statelike entity, but a nation. Many of these external sources do not base their view of Sealand as a micronation on legal facts - it is just an opinion. This opinion has only been used because there are people who cannot accept that the Principality of Sealand can be a nation, even if there are legal facts to prove that it is a nation. To say "The Principality of Sealand is a micronation" would be against WP:NPOV because that sentence is just the opinion. What about those that do see Sealand as a nation? Their opinon isn't just an opinion, it is a statement supported by laws and facts. Why isn't this statement included into the article? There must be a way of rewriting the sentence so that it is a more accurate definition of the Principality. -- Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 17:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- What it sees itself as is a matter of note - but is also largely irrelevant from the perspective of taxonomy. What it actually is, is an ephemeral statelike entity - ie, by definition, a micronation. That is how virtually all reliable external sources refer to it. --Gene_poole 14:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- I have found a reference that shows that the Principality of Sealand does see itself as a microstate, and not a micronation. The reference can be found here. Therefore it is incorrect to state at the top of the article that Sealand is a micronation - the first sentence has to be changed. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 22:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- The Principality of Sealand does not see itself as a micronation, nowhere does it officially state that it is a micronation. When the Principality was founded, its territory was in international waters. It was founded before a law was passed by the UN stating that nations cannot be founded on platforms, and it was founded before the UK extended its territorial waters limit from 3nm to 12nm. The British and Sealandic territories therefore border eachother near the British coast in the North Sea. Sealandic territory must be considered because the Principality has many laws supporting its claim to sovereignty and has been recognised many times over throughout its history. Therefore, even if the UK does not recognise this, the Principality is not in British territorial waters and the court rulings during the time that the Principality was not in British claimed waters support this. I agree that the first sentence is misleading, micronation seems to be what the Principality was labelled as just because it has never been "officially" recognised by the UN or the UK. Some people consider it a micronation, and others a microstate. The problem with using microstate is that there are people who will argue that the Principality is not a country, and would sooner base this on their own opinions rather than legal facts. I suggest replacing micronation with microstate as legally (using facts which Misplaced Pages requires) it is a nation, but whether that edit would stay I can't guarantee. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate 22:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence still is incorrect. It needs to be changed so that it agrees with WP:NPOV, and not with the opinion that the Principality of Sealand is not a nation. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 20:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- The first sentence is as correct and as thoroughly NPOV as anyone can reasonably expect given the odd nature of the subject of the article. Suggestions that Sealand is a nation (ie a group of people with a distinct historic shared cultural heritage) border on the ridiculous. A few dozen English citizens on a gun platform in the North Sea are not a nation by any accepted definition of that term, and as far as I'm aware no legal ruling has ever included such a pronouncement. At most Sealand is an historic anomaly dressed up with a bit of theatre by a savvy businessman with a flair for self-promotion. There's nothing wrong with that. But there's nothing really unique about it either. Principality of Seborga and Hutt River Province do the exact same thing. It's one of the common characteristics of micronations linked to actual real estate. In any case, the one thing most available sources agree on is that Sealand is a micronation, so that's the opinion that WP's article must properly reflect. --Gene_poole (talk) 21:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- However the Hutt River Province (and the Principality of Seborga in its current state) was founded on land claimed by a UN recognised nation. What makes the Principality of Sealand unique is that it was founded in, at the time, international waters. Also there have been many events in its history, which include UN recognised nations, that have supported its sovereignty. Several legal opinions have shown that Sealand is a nation. Neither the Principality of Seborga nor the Hutt River Province have achieved all of the above. What I have mentioned is just a fraction as to why Sealand is unique.
- There are those who consider Sealand a micronation, and others who consider Sealand a microstate. The first sentence in the article states that Sealand is a micronation - this is just one of the views on Sealand's sovereignty. Why isn't the other view considered? Not all sources see Sealand as a micronation. This article is in Wikiproject European Microstates as well as Wikiproject Micronations. I think all Sealandic articles need to consider both views - that is the most NPOV it can be. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 22:35, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, but that argument doesn't hold water. WP's NPOV and verifiability policies are not a license to give equal weight to fringe theories, and all sources are not created equal. If the BBC, Lonely Planet and other equally authoritative sources call it a micronation, and some guy in Canada who once ran in a marathon wearing a Sealand T-shirt says on his personal website that it's a sovereign principality, we definitely can't use the latter to "balance" the statements in the former. 3 poor sources do not trump 2 authoritative ones.
- Some people may well believe passionately that Sealand is or should be a sovereign state because there are apparently unresolved questions concerning its legal status - but the practical realities of its physical situation - lacking in all natural resources necesary for human survival, entirely dependant on the supply of goods and, as the recent fire highlighted -UK public services, not even a single resident who is not also a British citizen + plain old realpolitik make the likelihood of that ever happening extremely remote.
- As it stands Sealand has no formal bilateral relationship with any state. Until it does so we can't give undue weight to the idea that its actually something more than a plain old garden variety micronation, which is what the weight of reputable sources agree that it is. --Gene_poole (talk) 23:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, here is an example of a region attempting to gain complete independence. Abhkazia is not officially recognised by any nation or international organisation. However it has a president and a prime minister and uses the Russian Ruble, not the Lari, as currency. Russia grants citizenship to Abkhazians. However we don't consider Abkhazia a micronation, even when there are micronations much larger than Abkhazia.
- Sealand's sovereignty is not just a "fringe theory", to say that would be comparing its sovereignty to conspiracy theories. The arguments that support Sealand's sovereignty actually exist as recent official documents and recorded historical events, unlike many conspiracy theories. A letter from the Department of Health and Social Security calling the fort "Sealand", the several stamps from UN recognised nations in a Sealandic passport, the visit of a German diplomat to the Principality. Here is a list of the sources for this information:
- Department of Health and Social Security
- Government of the Republic of Togo
- Government of the Republic of Hungary
- Government of the Syrian Arab Republic
- Government of Mongolia
- Government of the Republic of Bulgaria
- Government of the Federal Republic of Germany
- Government of the Republic of Senegal
- Government of the Gabonese Republic
- Government of the Republic of Guinea
- Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan
- Clearly 10 UN recognised governments and an official department are much more reliable sources than the BBC or Lonely Planet. A Sealander, using a Sealandic passport, managed to gain access into all of the above UN recognised nations. This means the principality's sovereignty is not just a "fringe theory", similar in status to a conspiracy theory. Abkhazians currently would need a UN recognised nation's citizenship - it would be difficult to travel without it. Surely with this evidence for the principality's sovereignty the first sentence needs to be rewritten.
- There are people who consider Sealand a micronation. If there are a suitable amount of sources and people that think that, then it should be included in the article. However there are also a suitable amount of sources and people who consider the Principality of Sealand a nation, so this should also be included in the article. The Wikiprojects seem to follow this - so should the rest of Misplaced Pages, it is correct NPOV. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 21:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I have rewritten the first paragraph, so that it is NPOV. It now shows both views rather than supporting one opinion. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 21:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've reverted your change. As far as I'm aware no authoritative third party source has ever classified Sealand a microstate. The inclusion of Sealand in the European microstates list on WP should be removed.
- There is absolutely no comparison between Abkhazia and Sealand. The former has a distinct historic cultural identity and has the potential to be a viable state. Sealand has not, and does not.
- Having a well-made micronation passport stamped by the customs authority of a recognised sovereign state is easy as pie, and is essentially a meaningless act. A stamped micronation passport doesn't mean the government of the country in question has somehow legitimised the claims of the micronation.
- Again, this is not something unique to Sealand. Passports from the Conch Republic, Hutt River Province and Republic of Lomar have all been stamped by customs officers of real countries on dozens of occasions. In less sophisticated countries it's easy to get away with just handing over a nice-looking micronation passport to a non-English-speaking border guard, and it's unlikely they'll question it. In more sophisticated countries the practise is to hand over a real passoprt together with a micronation one get both stamped. The Hutt River people have been doing the latter when entering Australia for years.
- Procedural oversights and documentary sleighs-of-hand of this nature are all very entertaining, but it means absolutely zip as far as legitimising the claims of the micronations in question go. Unless there is evidence of a formal bilateral relationship between Sealand and a sovereign state it remains a micronation. --Gene_poole (talk) 02:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- Using "microstate" may be too specific, so I changed that to "sovereign nation". Undoubtedly there are people and sources that consider the Principality a sovereign nation - this should be included into the article. True, Abkhazia and the Principality are different in many ways, but to say that there is no comparison between the two is incorrect - they still have some similarities, and also to say that the principality does not have the potential to be a viable state is pure speculation which Misplaced Pages does not allow (WP:CRYSTAL).
- The article being on Wikiproject Micronations and Wikiproject European Microstates is correct NPOV. This shows that both views of the Principality are considered - by not saying that it is undoubtedly a microstate, but also not undoubtedly a micronation.
- Though the government of a nation may not recognise the Principality even after its custom officers stamped Sealandic passports several times, this still is recognition of its sovereignty. A customs officer of any nation should make sure that an unrecognised passport is not used at borders. Passports are official documents, if unrecognised passports are recognised, then the Principality's sovereignty is recognised by the government of that nation - whether intentional or not. Even if it is simple to travel to various UN recognised nations using an unrecognised passport - it does not mean that the government of these nations have not accepted these passports as official documents.
- To agree with NPOV, the article's first sentence must be written so that it states both views of the Principality. The sources that show that the Principality is a sovereign nation can't be simply ignored. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 19:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- There are no reliable third party sources that support the contention that Sealand is a sovereign state. If you believe that there are, then please cite them.
- Stamped passports do not legitimise the Bates family's claim that Sealand is a sovereign state. The status of sovereign state cannot be attained via documentary sleight-of-hand.
- Sealand does not have a bilateral relationship with any sovereign state.
- Ergo, Sealand is not a sovereign state, and WP cannot give undue weight to unsubstantiated, fringe notions which pretend or assert otherwise. --Gene_poole (talk) 00:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- When I rewrite the first paragraph, I am making sure that it is NPOV. There are several reliable sources that support the sovereignty of the Principality of Sealand - this isn't just an unsourced POV. Saying that the Principality is a micronation is a POV, if this POV can stay in the article why can't the other POV stay? That is correct NPOV. Stamped passports show de facto recognition, and the legal opinions do show that it isn't the Bates family that are the only people who claim that the Principality is a sovereign state.
- Here are plenty of sources (a fraction of all the sources) supporting the Principality's sovereignty. I am not placing them here so that the word "micronation" can be deleted from the article - if there are sources that say that the Principality is a micronation, then that POV can be included in the article. I am placing these sources here so that Misplaced Pages users can see that there is another POV with sources and this POV must be included in the article - and not simply ignored. This is correct NPOV.
According to this, de facto recognition includes "diplomatic activities by representatives of the states involved in connection with tasks between states, relationships etc.;", for example when Germany sent a diplomat from its London embassy to Sealand. Roy Bates relented after several weeks of negotiations and subsequently claimed that the diplomat's visit constituted de facto recognition of Sealand by Germany.
De facto recognition also includes: "recognition and official endorsement with a visa of passports issued by the other state as travelling documents." This can be seen in the photographs of a stamped Sealandic passport:
- Photograph 1
- Photograph 2
- Photograph 3
- Photograph 4
- Photograph 5
- Photograph 6
- Photograph 7
- Photograph 8
- Photograph 9
- Photograph 10
- Photograph 11
There are also many legal opinions by various people stating that the Principality of Sealand under various laws is a nation. This can be seen in the copies of these legal opinions:
- Legal opinion by Dr. Béla Vitányi (Professor in Public International Law, University of Nijmegen)
- Legal opinion by Dr. Dr. Dr. Walter Leisner (University professor of law, full professor for constitutional law, administrative law and jus gentium in the faculty of jurisprudence of the University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, chairman of the Institut für Staats- und Verwaltungsrecht [Institute for constitutional and administrative law in Erlangen, department of constitutional law and international law)
- Legal opinion by Briger & Associates Attorneys at Law
- Legal opinion by L.W. Conway
- Here are sources supporting the sovereignty of the Principality. This is not a fringe theory, these sources can't be compared to conspiracy theories. I don't see why a NPOV article on the Principality of Sealand would ignore this and support the POV that the Principality is a micronation. I think the article should consider both POVs. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 18:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- We seem to be engaged in a rather circular discussion. Legal opinions (which for all we know may have been paid for by the Bates family) do not prove that Sealand is a sovereign state, and we cannot present them as though they do. They do not represent a weight of mainstream legal opinion - they represent a few anomalous fringe opinions. There are similar opinions concerning the Hutt River Province and other supposedly anomalous situations, and they mean precisely nothing, because none of them have ever been tested in a court of law whose jurisdiction is clear and unambiguous.
- The opening paragraph already explicitly states that Sealand's situation is viewed as an interesting legal case study by some people. That's really all the mention of the sovereignty position that the article requires in order for it to comply with NPOV. We really need to leave it at that, rather than trying to promote the POV that because someone with a law degree said its a state, then that somehow cancels out the weight of opinion (both legal and otherwise) thatit isn't one and can never be one.
- Frankly, it's totally ludicrous to assert that a decrepit WW2 gun platform in the English Channel which has no resources of any kind, entirely reliant on the UK, and with a population of a handful (at most) of British Citizens beholden entirely to one eccentric family in whose name the structure is occupied is anything other than what it appears to be - an unrecognised statelike entity - ie a micronation.
- It is my personal observation that your contributions to this discussion are very much lacking in perspective, and I cannot help but wonder if you are somehow directly associated with or have an interest in Sealand. If this is the case continuing to strongly push the sovereignty POV is, to say the least, inappropriate. --Gene_poole (talk) 22:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- Firstly, I am not a Sealander, and have no association with the Principality.
- Secondly, the Principality is in the North Sea, not the English Channel.
- Thirdly :"Frankly, it's totally ludicrous to assert that a decrepit WW2 gun platform in the English Channel which has no resources of any kind, entirely reliant on the UK, and with a population of a handful (at most) of British Citizens beholden entirely to one eccentric family in whose name the structure is occupied is anything other than what it appears to be - an unrecognised statelike entity - ie a micronation." This is just an opinion. It is not a decrepit WW2 gun platform, it is a former Maunsell sea fort that is being restored. Define eccentric (another opinion) when referring to states such as the Principality of Sealand or micronations such as the Hutt River Province.
- Finally, I am not attempting to push a POV. I am just following this official English Misplaced Pages policy:
- Misplaced Pages works best when people with opposing opinions work together to find common ground. Neutral point of view advises that all significant views can and should be documented proportionally. An edit war is the opposite of this, with two sides each fighting to make their version the only one.
- This isn't an edit war. The above paragraph states: "people with opposing opinions should work together to find common ground." Nowhere did I say that the POV stating the the Principality is a micronation should not be included in the article, but all of the above sources can't be ignored - they exist and challenge the label micronation - whether Misplaced Pages users like it or not. If this is the case, then the article should show the POV in support of Sealandic sovereignty. To rewrite the first sentence is to find common ground between two POVs. "Legal opinions (which for all we know may have been paid for by the Bates family)" - this is just speculation, no sources show this - no sources, no inclusion into the article. "They do not represent a weight of mainstream legal opinion - they represent a few anomalous fringe opinions." - once again - just a POV, no sources, no inclusion into the article.
- "The opening paragraph already explicitly states that Sealand's situation is viewed as an interesting legal case study by some people. That's really all the mention of the sovereignty position that the article requires in order for it to comply with NPOV." If the POV that the Principality is a micronation can be in the article - then the other POV should be included into the article. It has sources, legal opinions based on fact - more then enough for a POV to be included into the article. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 23:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- The sum total of your constant reversion of the opening paragraph's content by attempting to include unsubstantiated assertions promoting a fringe POV is very rapidly entering edit-warring territory.
- The article already clearly and explicitly states that some people consider Sealand a sovereign state. Your repeated attempt to give undue weight to that eccentric fringe POV is completely inappropriate.
- I strongly suggest that you moderate your attempts to promote the sovereignty POV and return your focus to improving the article such that it more fully complies with WP content policies generally.
- Doing otherwise may leave you open to accusations of being a single-purpose account whose presence on WP is intended to actively promote Sealand. --Gene_poole (talk) 00:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- To say that the POV supporting Sealandic sovereignty is an "eccentric fringe theory" is just an opinion.
- This POV has many sources based on facts and documents - it must be included into the article. What is written in the first sentence is "The Principality of Sealand is a micronation". This is the first sentence that is read - the first sentences of an article define what the article is about. This definition of the Principality is just one POV, and does not consider the other POV. If it did, it would be correct NPOV.
- Misplaced Pages relies on reliable sources. All of the sources I added above are more than enough for the statement that "The Principality of Sealand is considered by some to be a micronation, but by others a sovereign nation." Notice that I am not deleting the POV stating that the Principality is a micronation - if I did, it would not be NPOV - but I think that both POVs should be considered, especially in the first paragraph - the paragraph that defines what the Principality of Sealand is. Onecanadasquarebishopsgate (talk) 20:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Third opinion
I don't think that the first sentence of the lead paragraph is the place for the debate. The terms "mirco nation" and "micro state" are both subject to a certain degree of ambiguity and thus may tend to add more confusion than clarity to the lead. The discussion of both definitions seems appropriate further into the article. I would avoid the use of either in the first sentence and only minimally discuss either or alternatives in the lead paragraphs. The salient issues here are the disputes on multiple levels that this is anything more than a chunk of concrete in Britixh waters. Regardless the story is facinating. --Kevin Murray (talk) 21:07, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
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