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Controversial paragraphs pasted here for discussion

I removed these two paragraphs from the article. I am posting them here. According to Wiki policy these statements require reference or substantiation if they are to be part of the article:

The church has claimed on the one hand that Scientology is religion, not science, and therefore does not seek scientific support — and on the other, that the E-Meter's scientific validity may be inferred by the similarities between the polygraph, which uses the electrical conductivity of the skin to indicate whether the subject is comfortable with questions and answers, and the E-Meter, which measures similarly.

--the above paragraph states the COS asks people to infer something about the E-meter. A reference will be required before that can be posted as a fact within the article. This is per Wiki policy.

In late 2005 Hungarian intelligence agencies warned the Hungarian government that Scientologists have smuggled dozens of E-meters into the country, which threatens national security since lie detectors are controlled equipment under law, which cannot be imported or posessed by private entities. This led to a public investigation by the citizen's rights ombudsman and the personal data protection ombudsman against the Magyar branch of Scientology over privacy violations.

--The above paragraph implies the E-meter is a lie detector. That should be referenced because the COS says it is something quite other than a lie detector. The statement appears to be a controversy about the stupidity of the Hungarian intelligence agency and should appear in an appropriate article rather than in this article. Does the author of the paragraph have a reference proving the E-meter is a lie detector? If so, that reference should appear. The Wiki policy for such statements is at: Misplaced Pages:Verifiability Terryeo 08:32, 24 December 2005 (UTC) Terryeo 23:12, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Weird units of information content

"Over 1024 levels of sensitivity" is mentioned several times on this page

• If analog, why choose such a particular number
• If digital, why say "over" 1024, rather than giving the actual resolution
• Why not just say "10-bit resolution" if that's what it is

I appreciate we're probably just repeating an inaccurate claim by whoever makes the device, but it sounds weird. Ojw 18:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

It is analog and obviously has an infinite number of potential scale divisions. This isn't an entirely accurate nor readable article. And Scientology doesn't claim it to be anything more than it is, a device which measure the electrical skin resistance of a human body. The reason it is used at all is because a human body's skin resistance varies slightly with how a person is feeling. Thus a gloomy person measures slightly differently than the same person when he is cheerful. 65.147.75.58 08:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

About those changes of resistance

An E-meter mainly works because it indicates changes in resistance. However, a person will not be able to manifest changes which the E-meter can reliably indicate unless they are in good physical health. In this beginning of session action, the actual magnitude of the person's body resistence is measured and is critical to whether an auditing session happens or doesn't happen. Therefore it seems necessary to state in the article, Changes are mainly what are used but are not the whole story about how an E-meter is used. Terryeo 00:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

removed from my user page

Regarding your recent reversals of my edits on the E-Meter page, I feel it is inappropriate to imply the Church of Scientology has created a lie detector. The information about the Hungarian agency is not cited (how do we know it happened) and the information about their viewing it as a lie detector is not cited (its not a lie detector unless documented) and what is the "Magyar branch of Scientology?" But when I pointed these reasons out on the Discussion page of the E-Meter article and pointed to the appropriate Wiki policy which is Misplaced Pages:Citing sources you reverted the paragraph without discussion. Additionally, if this issue is to be discussed it should be noted what the currect status of the Church of Scientology is, in Hungary and how the Hungarian government and the Church of Scientology delt with each other. The paragraph in question follows:

In late 2005 Hungarian intelligence agencies warned the Hungarian government that Scientologists have already smuggled dozens of E-meters into the country, which threatens national security since lie detectors are controlled equipment under law, which cannot be imported or posessed by private entities. This led to a public investigation by the citizen's rights ombudsman and the personal data protection ombudsman against the Magyar branch of Scientology over privacy violations. Terryeo 21:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

You fail to mention that you also inserted into the article "Oddly enough, Mr. Hubbard had quit attempting to convince the science community of his findings about 1950 and accusations of this type didn't change his work." You fail to mention that you also changed other usages of Hubbard's name so that they began with "Mr.", a curious change that you will find is not supported by the Manual of Style. You fail to mention that you added an unreferenced claim "(An E-meter's current is less than a flashlight battery)" which, since it was apparently intended to mean something about the theory which preceded it, would absolutely need to be referenced to not qualify as original research. You fail to mention that for no apparent reason, you converted every single {{web reference}} template into a featureless external link. Quite frankly, you should not be citing Misplaced Pages policies that you are in the process of violating. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:54, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for replying, Antaeus. Would you prefer to disscuss changes to this E-Meter article here rather than on your page, because by refusing to discuss here other venues become necessary.

While I appricate what you did say, I can not help but notice it does not respond to the issue which instigated our discussion, the paragraph in question. Instead of responding about the wiki policy violation per wikipedia:citing_sources, all of your comment is a critique of my changes. I am willing to say, it is a good critique and I appriceate your specificity toward uniform editing, but none of it replies the paragraph which is in violation of policy. It is important because it implies the E-meter might be a lie detector. It states the Hungarian government thinks so. If you will read about lie detectors and how impossible it is to create a transportable, reliable lie detector I'm sure you would appriciate situation. Law enforcement has tried for years. If the COS could make and market such a meter they would do quite well ! People are going to read it and want to know where it came from, want to know if there is any substance to an E-Meter being a lie detector. Let's satisfy them ! Let's cite that paragraph !

Thank you for mentioning about Mr. Hubbard's name ! Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style_%28biographies%29]] says a person's name should appear fully at first mention and thereafter the surname should be used. The problem as the Article now stands is that Mr. Hubbard's full name is never used at all. Let's make that right !

I state the current received by the person who is connecting themselves to the E-meter is "less than a flashlight battery." The reason I am stating this bold simplicity is this: The first line of the Article defines the E-meter as a battery powered device. The electronics of the device use some electricity and the meter's dial uses some electricity and this leaves less than a full battery use for the person who has connected themselves. It is not a big device, it has a small sort of battery. Some flashlights are larger than an E-Meter and the E-Meter obviously has electronics in it. . Do you see it takes no actual contact with an E-Meter to observe that the user receives less than full battery?

I did change the web reference links to standard external links and I see you have reverted them. My feeling for that use of those links is this: It supplies information which is excessive and detracts from the article because it oddly includes the last date of access to the URL. How is that information helpful to the reader?

You have a nice, gold star beside your name. Will you maintain a good reputation by appropriate reply to this violation of Wiki policy or will you continue to refuse to discuss it and substitue these other issues? Terryeo 03:20, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

It looks like a "lie detector and privacy" incident happened, at least in some way... with the import of a "lie detector" for an unknown (?) church being stopped, and the lie detector classified as a form of military equipment, with the press attributing the import attempt to scientology. Some hungarian sites (and quite a few english ones, as well) do characterize the E-meter as a basic lie detector (which it technically can somewhat work as, but only in a somewhat-limited, unreliable, fashion... LRH once noted this himself back in 1971), so I guess those Hungarian sites assume that a more advanced E-meter/lie detector (in their eyes) import would be related to Scientology... I'm guessing that this is the origin of the whole "lie detectors in hungary" meme. It looks like the Hungarin CoS is, indeed, also being investigated about privacy of their members, and whether information on members is being stored, as well. I haven't found out anything about "Intelligence sources" in the story, but like most things, there's a grain of truth in the original WP text, even if it's a tad distorted and inflammatory. Sources so far: Oh, and here's a simple google , which points out how many sites consider the E-meter as a primitive lie detector, as advanced lie detector technology uses some of the same tools to get measurements.

Exactly why I keep trying to spell out the difference in the E-Meter article, an E-meter measures resistence. That's it. A lie detector has a dozen graphs or something, it is a machine you push around with all kinds of hookups about resperation rate, heartbeat, god knows what else. Even your post, last line, "some of the same tools" and it is one, singular, only, skinny tool, resistence. A human body has resistence, measureable 24/7. lol. Why confuse people with technobabble when it isn't fruitful? The guy who can reliably test lies will become wealthy no matter how many tools he uses. Terryeo 15:43, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Anybody feel like taking on the re-write, to include the things that we've sourced, and altering the text to reflect what actually happened? Ronabop 04:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Antaeus, Terryeo, Ronabop if someone re-writes the article can we please change the refs to "current" and "skin-response"? The e-meter is based on measuring resistance and the Wheatstone bridge not skin conductances, sweating and un-sweating. The needle does not indicate current level. Spirit of Man 01:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, technically one *can* alter the amount of resistance to a current with sweating, tightly gripping the cans, loosely gripping the cans, etc... but yes, the article was kind of vague in that the measurement being used in auditing is not the actual amount of current, but the *resistance* to that current (which itself it determined by measuring two different currents). I altered the text for that clarification, I'll go back and see if the "hungarian lie detector" story needs more work (I haven't looked in months).Ronabop 02:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

As you may know the use of the e-meter is to detect mental reactions by detecting the change in electrical resistance in the body. Auditors are trained to see, detect and eliminate indications from sweating, gripping tightly and loosening grip on the cans. The use of the e-meter is to detect resistance, and changes in resistance. Its use is not to detect currents or changes in currents. It is not used as a galvanometer to actually detect small currents in the skin. I would like to eliminate text like this that are incorrect for the e-meter. "galvanometer", "Such changes are caused by corresponding small changes the person has to electrical energy." "This phenomenon is known as galvanic skin response". It is true the skin has a resistance, but so do the muscles, bones, blood and so forth, but it is the combined effect that is wanted. To say it is only a skin response or galvanic response is not true and is misleading in a certain direction. The resistance measured is between the hands and the circuit is along the wrists, arms, shoulders, chest, lungs, muscles, etc. To say such resistance or current changes are "caused" by the electrical energy is incorrect. Such words would seem to invalidate what is being measured by the device in auditing. Spirit of Man 03:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I know what the CoS can claim an E-meter detects, I know what what a basics electronics amateur can claim an E-meter detects, I also know what the FDA has said to the CoS about what they can claim an E-meter can, and cannot, do. Between all of these POV's, finding good wording is a challenge, without getting into a 'x says a, y says b, z says c" for each and every statement about an e-meter. So, I noted that it was passing through a "person" (not just skin), and that GSR was "similar". As far as validating, or invalidating a faith-based precept with scientific method, I'm trying to tread lightly, hence the wording "the person has to electrical energy"... Hm. With CoS separation of the body from the thetan, is using the word "person" not inclusive enough of the thetan? Is there some word we can use that will express both skeptics's POV that it's measuring changes in the human body, and non-skeptics? Maybe "...the subject has on..."? Anyways, I did note the difference between *to* the energy, and *on* the energy. 05:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeek! Resistance to that voltage, please. Current (I) = Voltage (V) / Resistance (R). A Wheatstone bridge works by comparing the current flow through a known resistance against the current flow through an unknown resistance. (This has the advantage that the voltage of the battery in the meter, as it varies over time, doesn't matter since voltage cancels out from both sides of the equation.) I'd be interested to disassemble a dump of the 8051 code from one of those fancy Quantums to see why they need a processor and why Golden Era Productions needs to Silver Certify them every two years. However, at the price of even used models on eBay, I can wait a while! AndroidCat 02:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Noted, fixed, sent myself back to 7th-grade science for gross silliness. :-) 05:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Removed a paragraph here for citing

After exploring the citations and links, I can't find any verification for this paragraph which was in the article:

before being temporarily dropped in 1954. Hubbard explained why he abandoned its use: :Yesterday, we used an instrument called an E-Meter to register whether or not the process was still getting results so that the auditor would know how long to continue it. While the E-Meter is an interesting investigation instrument and has played its part in research, it is not today used by the auditor... As we long ago suspected, the intervention of a mechanical gadget between the auditor and the preclear had a tendency to depersonalize the session...

Does anyone have a verification for that? It isn't obvious if there is one. Terryeo 16:25, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman? by Bent Corydon & L. Ron Hubbard Jr., p.313 --AndroidCat 16:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

AHA, ty. BTW Wikipediatrix, good job on creating the Thetan article. Terryeo 02:30, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

ERRRR..... that is a long webpage. It is a whole book. Reading the table of contents, it does not mention E-Meter at all. In addition, perhaps because of the way my browser displays it, the text of the chapters isn't exactly sequential. It would be a difficult thing to read through the whole text to find the small quote about the E-meter. Can you supply at least a chapter number? As it stands now it does not conform to WikiPolicy: WP:CITE and if you don't understand why it doesn't, I'll supply the exact quote from the page. The idea being, a reader should be able to go to a source of information and without vast effort, find the portions of information that applies. In a hardbound book this would be page number or chapter number at least. Terryeo 02:38, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Further, they have the whole book there so a page number would be appropriate. But, they also have the copyright notice which says: "All rights reserved. No part of this book

may be reproduced in any form, except by a newspaper or magazine reviewer who wishes to quote brief passages in connection with a review." and if there is a notification from the author that clambake has rights to publish then it is not on that page. Seems pretty questionable to quote a paragraph from a whole book whose copyright is questionable, and require a reader to read the whole book to find a single paragraph which isn't mentioned in the Table Of Contents anyway. Terryeo 02:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Nope, I've worked thought 1/5 of that book full of mysticism, drugs, allegations etc and haven't found the slightest mention of E-Meter. Its gotta be a better cite than that or it should not appear in the article. Surely even the most convinced person, utterly certain that there is nothing to the E-Meter at all can understand the need for a good citation for such a paragraph. Terryeo 02:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Although the internet often allows for quick access to the direct part of a reference one is seeking, it isn't guaranteed. There's no difference between this and a "real" encyclopedia giving a citation to pg.313 of that book. Just because this is a Wiki doesn't mean the article has to do all the work for the reader who wants to research the citations further. wikipediatrix 14:28, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, okay then. What page number is it on? What chapter is it in? WP:CITE says to yeah, put it there, "If you don't know how to format the citation, others will fix it for you." but WP:CITE also says: "the most important thing is to enter comprehensive reference information — that is, enough information so that a reader can find the original source with relative ease." Reading a whole book to find a single paragraph isn't easy. Further, WP:CITE suggest, with a book, to indicate a page number. Therefore, I'm going to mark that passage and link as a questionable citation. Terryeo 14:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

For the third time, what part of "pg.313" are you having trouble understanding? wikipediatrix 15:05, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Heh ! I finally got it, thank you for your patience. I added one additional sentence from the citation. Now could we talk about your earlier statement Wikipediatrix, "Dianetics Kills?" Where does that come from? Terryeo 16:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Get a clue. I said no such thing, and have told you so on three other pages already, including my talk page. wikipediatrix 00:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Why not the fuller quote? I think it is important for people to understand that Hubbard wanted use of a meter beyond Mathison's commitment for the meter. The full quote, page number, etc. lets a person understand Hubbard's point of view. Why chop off the quote, why refuse to let people understand what motivated Hubbard? Terryeo 19:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

The rest of the article is good enough, but...

...this little bit is totally obscure.

Changes of resistance rather than absolute magnitude of resistance are the main use of an E-meter. An auditor directs a person's attention to an experience. The movement of the needle, combined with what the person says, gives the auditor information. The auditor uses this information to understand if the person has attention stuck in the area asked about. In this manner the E-meter aids an auditor, an auditor uses this information as he aids a person.

Looks like another one of Terryeo's gems. Here's what it used to say:

An auditor asks the subject questions and the movement of the needle is used as a check of the emotional reaction to the questions. This is used to diagnose the mental and spiritual condition of the subject according to a complex set of rules, procedures and doctrines set out in Scientology manuals.

That sounds a lot better to me. What does everyone else think? Tenebrous 03:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Apparently there is no one else. Reinstating the old version. Tenebrous 03:57, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Controversy is Controversial

I am proposing to remove the controversy section of this article. It is full of opinion and based on the Misplaced Pages rule regarding “Facts vs Opinion,” it doesn’t belong here. California guy 15:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

And for the record, I disagree. (Just so that when you do one of your periodic deletion sweeps, you can't say that no one said anything against it.) AndroidCat 23:40, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I, too, disagree. California guy really needs to work on his understanding of the rules before he enacts sweeping changes based on his incorrect understanding of them. For instance, his currently proposed change would remove all references to the fact that the Church of Scientology was raided by the FDA over these devices, and would remove all reference to the ensuing trial and appeal. He seems to believe that if he just describes something as "opinion", whether that is a correct description or not, it enables his removal. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Subject intervention

Yes, phrases like "It is well known that" are especially weasely and need supporting references. There are Tech Bulletins on false TA and false reads that could be cited here, I'll try to look them out. In particular, there's a HCOB 'Instant Reads' that defines an instant read as occurring immediately an item is called during an assessment; no-one could deliberately react fast enough to fake this. DavidCooke 03:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Recently the section "Subject intervention" was removed entirely with the edit summary "It is "well known" that the e-meter's fundamental principle is completely bogus. This is just a detail, and weasel-worded."

It seems to me that this is really two objections in one: a) since "the fundamental principle is completely bogus", anything more about the doubfulness of the meter's functionality is redundant, and b) the section (as it existed) is poorly written and poorly referenced. I can agree with b), but a) seems to be in error. While it may be the dominant scientific opinion that the fundamental principle is completely bogus, that's certainly not accepted by everyone. Therefore, I think it's legitimate to look at those factors which might affect the results obtained from the meter apart from the functionality of the fundamental principle. Even if an exact relationship between the electrical resistance of a person's body and the thoughts in the person's mind was absolutely assured -- an instrument which "measured" not only the electrical resistance but also sizable "noise" due to small changes in the way the cans were held would mean the meter was not producing very reliable readings.

One part that we wouldn't dream of leaving out of the history of N rays is the demonstration by Robert Wood where he removed a key element of the apparatus which should have radically affected the result, and yet those who expected to see the effect of N rays saw them anyways. Similarly, I think any well-referenced information (I believe it's covered in at least one of the major government reports) about how intentional or even unintentional motion can alter the results on the basis of which the organization has been known to make very serious results is quite relevant and should be included. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the section because of David Cooke's objection above, and this objection which was recently posted in the article. Church materials do indicate that auditors are trained to notice "body actions" that affect the reading. I don't mind if someone wants to add a section about manipulation of the e-meter that makes verifiable statements, but that wasn't it. Gazpacho 01:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Multimeter

The E-Meter appears to be nothing more than a simplified and stylised multimeter passed off as a medical device--80.6.85.54 01:43, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Close, but it's more akin to a Wheatstone bridge - the operating principle is basically the same. -- ChrisO 01:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Rock slam definition is wrong

From this article:

• rock slam (violent swinging back and forth): In Scientology's Sea Org, a rock slam in response to questions about basic doctrine indicates that the preclear has an "evil purpose" and must be assigned to the Rehabilitation Project Force.

This is completely wrong. A "rock slam" (usually abbreviated to R/S) means "a consideration of making overts" (quote from memory from the SHSBC, if I recall correctly), which is not at all the same as "evil purpose". Overts are destructive or aggressive acts, which would sound like the same thing, except the overt-motivator cycle is just a standard thing that is considered to occur regularly in Scientology methodology. If I recall, also, Hubbard once referred to a rock-slam as indicating that the preclear (i.e. the thetan) was oscillating in and out of their body, but I can't remember which source that was from.

And furthermore - perhaps more importantly - the noting of a rock-slam in session with a Sea Org preclear does not get them assigned to the RPF. What will get them assigned to the RPF is generally one of three things: 1) a comm-ev; 2) failure of a sec-check; or 3) assignment of a low ethics condition by the MAA.

I don't really want to change this myself lest I be accused of "original research", but this section could not be more incorrect. Would someone be so kind as to change it? Thank you. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 06:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, Nicholas!

Hmmmm, interesting issue you've pointed out... I think the biggest problem with the material in question is that the part you've quoted isn't actually a definition of a rock-slam, it's an assertion about what happens if you have a rock-slam (and not even what happens if you have a rock-slam in general, but rather what happens if you have one in particular circumstances, starting with "in the Sea Org"...) So I think that we definitely need to put an actual definition in there, whatever else we do.

... However, a little preliminary research leads me to believe that a person could read official Scientology materials and come away from them with the impression that the scenario described is in fact just what would happen in that situation. See, for instance, these definitions given for rock slam and rock slammer which are apparently taken from the Dianetics and Scientology Technical Dictionary (1983 New Era edition). While most of the entry for "rock slam" is simply characterizing the needle movement and distinguishing it from other similar needle movements (the "Theta Bop" mentioned sounds like it might be the oscillation of the thetan in and out of the body that you mentioned, Nick) the final sentence is "A rockslam means a hidden evil intention on the subject or question under discussion or auditing." While I find it plausible that "hidden evil intention" might itself be some form of jargon I'm not familiar with that is not as harsh as "hidden evil intention" sounds, the entry for "rock slammer" reinforces the impression that it really is "hidden evil intention" that is meant, by saying "those who R/S on subjects connected to Scn ... it is of great importance to us that they be located and moved off lines when they are part of staffs as their intent is solely to destroy us whatever else they say: their intent is solely to destroy us whatever else they say: their long run actions will prove it."

So while the part about "would be sent to the RPF" seems unjustifiable extrapolation, and the part about "in the Sea Org" seems needless qualification... the rest does seem to be supported by sources, even if those sources aren't currently cited. Let's remove those extrapolations and qualifiers, and talk about the rest. -- Antaeus Feldspar 05:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello there Antaeus! I am inclined to agree with you. I think it is worth noting that there is a whole plethora of various reasons given in the OEC Admin Volumes (and the subset, the Management Series) specifying why particular attribute X of a person means they absolutely must be taken off lines immediately, where X is whatever Scientological malady that Hubbard was thinking of at the time. These don't necessarily mean, however, sending to the RPF; and indeed, an RPF assignment rarely equates to being booted out of the Sea Org - usually it is quite the contrary, as a mechanism for "rehabilitating" staff that haven't been "offloaded" but have committed some sort of serious infraction (read: force them to do as they're told from now on). It's worth noting the early Technical Dictionaries are more restrained on this particular point (e.g. the 1972 one) most probably as they were published before the advent of "hard ethics".

I suppose the best way of rewording this would be, actually, to quote Hubbard directly instead, including both the definition of the meaning of a rock-slam and Hubbard's opinion that these people should be taken "off lines". I will do some research this evening and see if I can come up with something. Yours, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 15:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Addendum: I'm getting sloppy on my tech knowledge. Good grief!

Of course, a theta bop and an R/S are separate reads all together on the meter. I have just looked in my electronic copy of the Tech Vols, and been reminded of my stupidity in this regard. *groan* I need to do some word-clearing, evidently, as I must have MUs on the subject. :) And after poking around on some tapes, of course, yes, the R/S does indeed mean a "hidden evil intention" (SHSBC-268) which means exactly what it sounds like. Apologies for errors in this regard. It shows how out of practice I'm getting with all this! --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 01:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Citations added. The only thing I can't find a citation for is whether list one R/S is still used to assign people to the RPF. Gazpacho 20:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Quantum?

Can there be a description as to how quantum physics relates to this meter? Is there some other more obvious definition of quantum that I am not aware of? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.221.187.19 (talk) 22:12, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Editorial slant

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a supporter of Scientology and I don't personally "like it", to say the least, but I think this article could use an objectivity overhaul. I mean do we really need "Quackery" listed under "See also" (which I'm now removing)?

Fuller

Hello, I am new to the english wikipedia. I wonder how much credibility a source normally has to have here to be compliant to WP:RS. In the case at hand, how significant is this opinion paper of an otherwise insignificant student called Laura Fuller? Derflipper (talk) 23:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

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