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Weston Price

Almost halfway down this page is an interesting rebuttal to Barrett's Quackwatch essay on Weston Price and holistic dentistry. I don't know if there is anything usable in here for our article, so please take a look and let's discuss. -- Levine2112 18:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not see a reason not to include a short sentence about it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

This seems to say that Barrett's Quackwatch article on Weston Price is filled with contradictions, false statements and moralistic overtones. That's what I get out of it anyhow. How should we word this? -- Levine2112 03:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ask one of the editors on your opposing POV to to do it... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

There is an article in Misplaced Pages about his foundation in case someone didn't know. It can be found here; . I am still trying to finish reading the story at the above link so I can't comment or help, at least not yet. --CrohnieGal 13:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Well if anyone wants to take a first stab out at it... go for it. -- Levine2112 19:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Question about Citation in Introduction

The site has been regularly criticized by the groups it investigates, such as herbalists, homeopaths and other alternative medicine practitioners.

How does the citation (Medical Sharks) at the end of this line support this statement? -- Anthon01 (talk) 12:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to. I am sure that there are better sources out there (if the criticism which follows isn't support enough). -- Levine2112 18:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that cite alone isn't enough, but there are abundant refs in the article to justify the statement. The lead doesn't really have to have refs if it is done properly, since everything in the lead must be based on article content, and that content must be backed up by references. If there aren't any refs in the article to back up the statement, then it should be easy to find them, but I think we have them already. The statement needs to be there because it is a significant part of mentioning that Quackwatch is criticized, and that it is! -- Fyslee / talk 06:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure but the link is inaccurate. The link needs to be replaced or removed. --Anthon01 (talk) 10:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. -- Levine2112 17:43, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The "Peer Review" or lack thereof cite

The actual reference doesn't support the text in the article, or rather it does support it for a single article in QW, by a critic of the actual author of the article in QW. I recommend that a better cite be found or the text in the article removed. Shot info (talk) 22:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that the title of the article - When You Can’t Critique CBP In The Peer-Reviewed Literature, You Can Always Send Your Article To Quack Watch - certainly makes the assertion that all of Quackwatch is not peer reviewed, not just the one article commented upon. That being said, I am certain we can find others sources for this statement. Funny, I could have sworn that Quackwatch used to state that it wasn't peer-reviewed. What bothers bothers me now is that I can't find anything on Quackwatch which discusses it's fact-checking or publication process. Without this, it does make Quackwatch a less reliable source in the eyes of Misplaced Pages according to WP:RS. -- Levine2112 23:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the title of reference is irrelevant, because it isn't what the reference is about. If you read the reference, you too would see this. Shot info (talk) 00:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the title is relevant of this article. It certainly implies that Quackwatch is not peer-reviewed. Read my comment above again and realize what I mean. On a side note, I think that this article would be apt for a good ref for a bit of Quackwatch criticism. -- Levine2112 01:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Seems like "Critics have commented that the opinions expressed on the Quackwatch website are not subjected to formal scientific peer review" should go where the 150+ statement is. It gives context to the 150+ statement. Like this

Quackwatch engages the services of 150+ scientific and technical advisors. As of 2003, 67 medical advisors, 12 dental advisors, 13 mental health advisors, 16 nutrition and food science advisors, 3 podiatry advisors, 8 veterinary advisors, and 33 "other scientific and technical advisors" were listed. Critics have commented that the opinions expressed on the Quackwatch website are not subjected to formal scientific peer review"

--Anthon01 (talk) 23:33, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep, don't mind this. Where it sit (sat) was just an example of poor editing. Shot info (talk) 00:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree too that it should be moved there. -- Levine2112 01:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Another critical source which points out that Quackwatch is not peer-reviewed. -- Levine2112 02:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, here it is. I remember seeing it on Quackwatch somewhere: Members of our medical advisory board review articles upon request. Clearly when articles are only reviewed upon request, we are not dealing with true peer-review. With this ref, we aren't dealing with a critical viewpoint, but rather a fact stated outright by Quackwatch and thus it should be worded as such in this article. -- Levine2112 02:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

A good solution. Even though I have included and edited that wording previously, it has always puzzled me why the point was included - much less belabored - at all. It has always been a deceptive straw man criticism, since no one has claimed it was peer-reviewed and such is not expected of websites. Sure, it contains alot of peer-reviewed references and bases much of its opinions on them, but it doesn't claim to be a scientific journal or scientific research. It's similar to the accusations raised against Barrett, such as "he is not a homeopath" "he is not a naturopath", etc.. Of course not, and he has never claimed to be such. It would be a demotion for him. It is similar to the problems in the criticisms section at the iPod touch article. To include a criticism of it for not having a telephone function is ridiculous. It doesn't claim to be an iPhone! (BTW, the iPod touch is great! Mine functions perfectly.) Criticisms need to have some relation to reality, not be trumped up straw man arguments or mere slurs without foundation in reality. That kind of stuff is not worthy of inclusion here. -- Fyslee / talk 06:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not what Quackwatch claims about itself which is the justification for pointing this fact out. Nor is pointing this fact out necessarily a criticism. Interestingly, the iPod Touch article does point out that the device is not a mobile phone; not as a criticism, but as a statement of fact. which clarifies perhaps a common misconception or highlights a key difference between it and something it is like (an iPhone). It would be one thing if we were to say here that Quackwatch is not a cookbook (or a mobile phone carrier for that matter). It is another, to state that it is not peer reviewed; certainly this could be a common misconception and at least highlights a key difference between Quackwatch and more reliable sources for health advice (say an actual peer-reviewed journal). So no strawman; just the facts. -- Levine2112 07:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Check it out. Read the edit summary: "rv vandalism"

Sneaky vandalism: Vandalism that is harder to spot. This can include adding plausible misinformation to articles, (e.g. minor alteration of dates), hiding vandalism (e.g. by making two bad edits and only reverting one), or reverting legitimate edits with the intent of hindering the improvement of pages. Some vandals even use edit summaries such as "rv vandalism" to mask their changes.  Mr.Guru  talk  07:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I would surmise that like your attempted edit which this editor rightly reverted, your accusation here has no basis in reality. -- Levine2112 07:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

We've been through this many, many, many times. Another trivial criticism that some editors want to include in the article unsourced or poorly sourced. WP:OR, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV all apply here. --Ronz (talk) 18:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe that this is a criticism. This is just a statement of fact. Quackwatch does publish scientific related articles similar to how a journal would publish articles. To avoid confusion for the reader, we should spell out that a key difference is that QW articles are not subject to peer-review, but rather (as the site states) reviewed by their technical staff only upon request. Clearly there is no OR, V, or RS issues here as this is well documented in the QW site. I am curious though about your raising of the NPOV issue. What is the NPOV issue as you see it? -- Levine2112 18:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I don't think calling people "trolls" (even in a edit summary) helps this situation. Please follow the guidelines of WP:NPA and let's discuss this with civility. -- Levine2112 18:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Please refer to your many, many, many arguments of the exact same situation, and the many, many, many responses you've received. The "it's a fact" argument has been refuted many, many, many times. Please stop. --Ronz (talk) 18:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't find this response satisfactory (more akin to a personal attack... please stop). We are dealing with information which has been in this article for a long time with no argument against it. Please explain the NPOV issue as you see it now. Thanks. -- Levine2112 19:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

DNFTT Please follow WP:TALK. --Ronz (talk) 19:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Ronz, I find this very disheartening. You are calling me a "troll" once again here rather than discussing a point which you have raised. I believe other editors have pointed this out to you in the past. You have made a claim that this text somehow violates NPOV. You may indeed be correct and I don't see it yet. I just want to read your rationale. -- Levine2112 19:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Please follow TALK or you may be ignored. Repeat TALK violations will be reported to the proper venue. --Ronz (talk) 19:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I have read WP:TALK once again. Please tell me the TALK issue as you see it. Then maybe you can delve in to the NPOV issue with the content we are discussing. -- Levine2112 19:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. Please refer to your many, many, many past discussions on this very topic. Perhaps you should start with the ones in ANI or WQA. --Ronz (talk) 19:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Ronz, I am going to disengage from you for now. It is clear that you are unwilling ( and perhaps unable) to back your policy violation assertions against the material in question. Rather than backing your assertions with a requested explanation, you have rather chosen to turn this into an uncivil, personal attack war against me. When you are ready to discuss content and policy, please let me know. -- Levine2112 19:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I think Levine2112's interpretation of the title is plausible. However, claims should be verifiable by anyone looking at the source material. We can't bridge gaps with our own synthetic conclusions. The source therefore doesn't support the claim it's cited to support. Cool Hand Luke 22:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Another trivial criticism

"Another trivial criticism that some editors want to include in the article unsourced or poorly sourced. WP:OR, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV all apply here." --Ronz (talk) 20:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion... It is not trivial. It is not a criticism. It has been in the article unopposed for a long time. It is neither unsourced nor poorly sourced and therefore OR, V, and RS don't apply. I don't know what your NPOV issue is with this material and I am kindly requesting that you explain your rationale. -- Levine2112 20:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no comment about the sourcing at this time. However, in my opinion, the statement isn't trivial. For many readers peer-reviewed makes all the difference in the weight they assess to a sources POV. If Quackwatch was a peer-reviewed website, many would insist, and rightly so, that it be prominently placed in the text. Anthon01 (talk) 21:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

"If Quackwatch was a peer-reviewed website, many would insist, and rightly so, that it be prominently placed in the text." I agree, but it's irrelevant. There are an infinite number of facts about Quackwatch, that if true, would unquestionably need to be placed prominently in the article. That does not mean that it's worth noting them when they are not true. --Ronz (talk) 22:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The point here is that QW itself notes that its articles are not peer reviewed but rather only subject to some kind of review upon an ambiguous request. Again it would be one thing if we were saying that QW is not a cookbook since nowhere on the QW site does it state this. But int he case of not being peer reviewed, QW does find this fact notable enough to list on their all-too-important Mission Statement page! -- Levine2112 18:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Continues below: SYNTH violation -- Fyslee / talk 06:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

150+

Then what is the significance of the 150+ statement? Why bother noting all those peer advisers when they don't get used? --Anthon01 (talk) 22:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The answer to that can be found in the history of this article. Because of many objections claiming that Quackwatch wasn't notable and that it was a one-man operation, more documentation and information was included to meet those demands and document that Barrett involves more than Barrett and includes input and articles from other people, and this was just a small part of the other stuff that got included because of demands from anti-Quackwatch editors. We have seen this pattern many times here. More complaints means a better sourced article that invariably disproves the complaints and false charges. Why? It's very simple. Conspiracy theories that aren't founded in truth and fact are easy to expose by simply producing the facts. -- Fyslee / talk 07:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Quackwatch's reliability as a source is topic of much discussion not just here at Misplaced Pages, but throughout the web and in the real world. We have an entire section devoted to "Quackwatch as a source" after all. Given this, the fact that QW articles are not peer reviewed but rather only reviewed upon request is of paramount notability. The citation to Quackwatch confirms this so I can't imagine any OR, V, or RS violation. Which leaves us with Ronz's NPOV violation claim - I am not sure what he means and I would like very much for him to explain his rationale. He may have a point; we just don't know what it is yet. -- Levine2112 22:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

"Then what is the significance of the 150+ statement? Why bother noting all those peer advisers when they don't get used?" I'm not following you and not sure with how this relates. --Ronz (talk) 22:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The 150+ statement is trivial if those advisers are not being used or are used infrequently, don't you think? You would like to leave the trivial statement up there without a balancing statement? It certainly looks more impressive, but it doesn't reflect the facts and it certainly creates a WP:POV issue. --Anthon01 (talk) 22:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Now there's an NPOV violation claim which I can understand. Yes, Anthon01, the omission of the fact that the 150+ advisers do not serve as a peer-review board but rather only review upon request would create an NPOV issue somewhat akin to WP:PEACOCK. -- Levine2112 23:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd think that having 150+ advisors is notable. Why do you think they're only used infrequently? Why does it matter? What does this have to do with supporting the inclusion of unsourced information, which so far you've only argued deserves mention if the information were not true?

Again, there are an infinite number of things we can say that are not true. People's assertions to include them are irrelevant. That's why I've pointed out OR, V, RS, and NPOV, all which discuss how and when we include information. --Ronz (talk) 23:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

There are an infinite amount of things we can say that Quackwatch is not. It isn't a cookbook and it isn't a lead pipe. But that isn't notable. However, given that we give so much discussion in the article about QW's credibility as a source, that Quackwatch is not peer-reviewed certainly is notable. Above you say that this statement is unsourced. How is it unsourced? Quackwatch's mission statement page outright says that the articles are only reviewed upon request. Anthon01 brings up an excellent point. Having all of those advisers, one might assume that Quackwatch is peer reviewed. To avoid confusion (and an NPOV violation), we must say that it is not. Since Quackwatch outright states this about itself, we cannot have an RS, OR, or V violation. Quackwatch is an RS for itself (hence the dozens of self-referencing sources throughout this article). The OR claim would suppose that this statement needs some kind of original research to support it; it does not. The V claim would suggest that this information is not verifiable, when clearly it has been verified. Let me ask you this, Ronz: Do you think that the articles in Quackwatch are subject to formal peer review? -- Levine2112 23:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Having 150 advisers isn't notable if all they are is window dressing. And Barrett himself says that he uses those advisders only upon request. Why do I think they're only used infrequently? Because he told me. --Anthon01 (talk) 23:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

"Upon request" =? "infrequently" =? "window dressing"?! I don't see any reason to think "infrequently" applies, let alone "window dressing". It's a good example of why OR and NPOV are so important though, to prevent improper or misleading assumptions or biases.

Can we get back to the the subject at hand? --Ronz (talk) 23:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Because he told me means because Barrett told me. Is there a way to use personal communication as a source? --Anthon01 (talk) 23:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

You need to review WP:RS and WP:V. Shot info (talk) 23:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the point here which Anthon01 makes is that if we are to state that QW has 150+ technical advisers, then one might assume that the articles are all reviewed by all or at least some portion of these advisers. We know from Quackwatch that this is not true. Article review only happens upon request. Whose request? We don't know. Who does the reviewing? We don't know. What we do know though is that the articles are not subject to the formal peer review process of a scientific journal. Again, this Wiki article has an entire section devoted to Quackwatch's reliability as a source. Its article review process is part of determining that reliability. So is having a board of 150+ technical advisers. Each fact is notable, relevant and verifiable. Hence, each fact is included in our Wiki article. -- Levine2112 01:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I can read what Anthon01 has written. I'm sure if he reviews the policy it will make it quite clear. You can continue to answer for him/her if you so choose to however, just means that it will be ignored. Shot info (talk) 06:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

"What we do know though is that the articles are not subject to the formal peer review process of a scientific journal." ?? Another straw man. It isn't a scientific journal! Websites are not "peer-reviewed", nor are articles on quackery and healthfraud on any website "peer-reviewed". They are prepared using advisors and many sources, including many peer-reviewed sources. That's it, and it's done well enough that the website is considered a good source of information regarding quackery and healthfraud by the mainstream, the press, and government agencies. Don't try to compare apples and oranges. Quackwatch doesn't pretend to produce peer-reviewed scientific research and it isn't a scientific journal. -- Fyslee / talk 07:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

No strawman at all. QW uses peer reviewed literature in their articles, QW boast recommendations from sources of peer reviewed journals, and QW also boasts about their board of 150+ advisers. Including the fact that QW articles (not the website) are not peer reviewed but rather only subject to review upon request is to state a fact which QW found notable enough to post on their website and to help avoid any confusion with the readers of this Wiki article. -- Levine2112 18:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. For a strawman argument, look at your own. You say that "websites are not peer-reviewed". Well, no one is claiming that. I am pointing out that the articles on QW might be peer reviewed. That is to say, that it is possible for any scholarly work to be peer reviewed. Please read the Wiki article on "Peer review" to learn more. -- Levine2112 21:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Edit war

If this doesn't stop by the time I get home, I'm going to protect the article and start issuing 24 hour blocks. Discuss changes here. Adam Cuerden 18:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Adam, sorry that I reverted, but I didn't see this message from you until after I made the edit. It looks as though my reversion was made concurrent to your message here. That being said, I liked your last version and have reverted Ronz's back to that version. You have made an excellent point about "viewpoints" and I think it reads well now. I am satisfied. I am confused by Ronz assertion that this somehow fails to meet NPOV. Ronz, please explain. -- Levine2112 18:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. I said "by when I get home" to make sure everyone had a chance to read this and calm down. PP is probably the way to go. Adam Cuerden 22:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I think we need a much longer protection, and have requested it. This dispute is just another duplicate of the many, many, many we have had here, some of which have lasted for months because of outright refusal to follow WP:TALK and WP:CON. --Ronz (talk) 20:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The article is protected for two weeks. I hope everyone can respect WP:TALK and WP:CON while we work out the dispute. Please note that this is not the proper venue for reporting or discussing problems with individual editor's behavior. Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 22:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH violation

• First of all, websites (and professions) aren't subject to peer review, only scientific research itself. -- Fyslee / talk 06:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Re:Professions. Well Yeah. That was an abbreviated way for me to make the point. My apologies if that confused you. Did you think I didn't know that? How does that fit into a WP:SYNTH violation section on a Quackwatch talk page? Why didn't you make the point on the "List of Pseudosciences" talk page where I made that statement? Do you believe it bolsters you argument of a WP:SYNTH violation?

Re: Websites. Yes websites are not peer-reviewed, but in some cases some of the data published on them is. One notable example is MedGenMed which is an wholly electronic based journal. In addition, many journal websites make abstracts and some full-text articles available online. That data is often peer-reviewed. --Anthon01 (talk) 13:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I had forgotten about MdGenMed. It is mentioned here. -- Fyslee / talk 21:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but Quackwatch is not a journal, nor a website for a journal, nor is anyone claiming it is. Again, just another of an infinite number of facts about Quackwatch that is unimportant. --Ronz (talk) 16:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

If it is unimportant, then why does Quackwatch state it on their Mission Statement? Seems like an odd place to put a fact that is unimportant. The point is, QW finds this fact about itself notable enough to state outright on their Mission Statement, thus it is notable enough of a fact to include in our article here. -- Levine2112 18:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Secondly, this matter most specifically violates WP:SYNTH because it states one of millions of possible irrelevant facts that could be included, but which we do not include. We don't include information just to provide readers with a service (although that would be good if it were very relevant and was properly sourced, and in this case rebutted). It is a form of editorializing that has been used as a specious criticism based on the straw man fallacy. No reasonable person expects a website to be peer-reviewed, and Quackwatch has never claimed anything remotely related to such a thing. It is thus the ridiculous inclusion of an obvious fact that is unnecessary to include, all based on an unsaid and unsourced straw man criticism. No amount of back peddling, claiming that it's just a "fact", can get away from the fact that the only reason it even comes to mind to include it is because there are a few unreasonable critics who have made this straw man accusation as a part of their disinformation campaigns against Quackwatch, and some editors here are more than willing to bring that same agenda here to Misplaced Pages. -- Fyslee / talk 06:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to follow you arguments and have a few questions.

• The claim made on QW mission statement page says just that, "Members of our medical advisory board review articles upon request." I don't think he meant by his cleaning lady or gardener. :) There is a claim being made here of peer-review.
• Unless you know something I don't know, I think your jumping to conclusions when you infer why this point 'comes to mind." That may be true for some editors but I don't think the wholesale generalization is helpful or true.
• "No reasonable person expects a website to be peer-reviewed." I don't know what you mean by this since only "scientific research itself" is subject to peer-review. I'm not trying to be facetious, but because of your comment in item 1, I just don't know what you mean by this. --Anthon01 (talk) 16:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a claim of review, not scientific peer review. Websites aren't peer reviewed. Pointing that out here in this article is inappropriate. --Ronz (talk) 16:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a claim of peer-review. Right? --Anthon01 (talk) 16:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a claim of review that is not in dispute. What are you trying to say? --Ronz (talk) 17:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I am saying it is peer-review. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthon01 (talk • contribs) 17:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

And I don't know what you mean, let alone what it means regarding policies/guidelines and our work to improve this article and end the dispute that resulted in page protection. --Ronz (talk) 17:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem here is that the term "peer-review" has a special definition in medical circles. Just because some peers look an article over for accuracy, make some suggestions, maybe even additions and subtractions, doesn't make it a "peer-reviewed" article in the scientific sense, in large part because it is an article, not a scientific research paper, and the peer-reviewers are known to the author, in contrast to the peer-review process with scientific journals, where the author normally doesn't know them. There are a number of differences. Quackwatch is producing articles of all types by many authors. Some articles don't need any type of review, others do. Some simply report some type of news relevant to exposing quackery. Others go in depth and cover a subject from many angles using many sources and they may require double checking. Then those who know something about the subject check it over. It's as simple as that. Other times several work together on an article and their names appear as authors. Since most are medical professionals, this gives some weight to their opinions, and thus Quackwatch has garnered respect in the medical world as a source of information on matters related to quackery and healthfraud. -- Fyslee / talk 22:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

it states one of millions of possible irrelevant facts that could be included, but which we do not include. - If it is so irrelevant then why does QW make a point of stating it on their Mission Statement page? Clearly it is extremely relevant. -- Levine2112 18:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

You have gone beyond what is stated, and it is that part that is a SYNTH violation. The first part of what you write is the problem (and I strike it out here) and where you go too far:

• "Quackwatch.org's articles are not subjected to formal scientific peer review, but rather, reviewed by the medical advisory board upon request."

A simple statement noting that "Members of Quackwatch's medical advisory board review articles upon request," would do the job just fine. -- Fyslee / talk 22:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

...which means that the articles are not subject to formal scientific peer review as one might otherwise expect. We need to spell it out to deal with this otherwise ambiguous statement. -- Levine2112 22:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

No reasonable person would "otherwise expect" that a website publishing articles on quackery and healthfraud would be "peer-reviewed". What part of "Quackwatch is not a scientific journal publishing scientific research" (my summation of an oft repeated point we are making) do you not understand? Are your refusals to understand this point and pressing the issue becoming disruptive? This question has only been raised on websites that have been banned from Misplaced Pages as sources for any purpose other than in their own articles, one of which has been deleted. To include the statement you must source it, and we would need to see that source here and approve it. Do you have such a source that is allowed to be viewed here? If not, just email it to me. -- Fyslee / talk 00:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry, but it is difficult to understand what you are saying here in this rant. It comes off as an attack on me and seems to be coming from frustration. I suggest that you have some tea (or your Zinfandel, as I know you are partial to) and come back here to restate the above in a more understandable and civil tone. Thanks. -- Levine2112 01:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

When you come back, I would like you to address your statement: "Quackwatch is not a scientific journal publishing scientific research." I agree with that. But how does the reader of this article know that? Do we need to include this in the Wiki article? Can it be sourced? If not, how do we know it is true? -- Levine2112 01:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• Thirdly, I find it rather amusing (and considering this discusion quite ironic) that JAMA recommends Quackwatch as a source for more information in a patient information article regarding the subject of peer-review and how to judge health information and evaluate medical research! Quackwatch may not be peer-reviewed, but the mainstream still considers it to be a reliable source of information for consumers. -- Fyslee / talk 06:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Fyslee, you just summed it up exactly in your last sentence. Yes, sources of peer-reviewed literature such as JAMA consider QW to be a reliable source, QW cites peer-reviewed literature in their articles, and QW has a board of over 150+ technical advisers. If I only knew those facts about QW, I would assume that their articles are also peer reviewed. Thus, knowing that their articles are only reviewed upon request, clears that ambiguity up (though it does open the doors on other ambiguities such as who makes these requests and who reviews the articles upon these requests and which articles have been reviewed and which have not). Clearly, to avoid confusion for the reader, this Wiki article must expressly state what it states now - that QW articles are not subject to any formal scientific peer review. (On a side note, I am surprised not to find any legal/medical disclaimer on the QW site which states something to the effect of: the views expressed on this site are not meant to supersede diagnosis of a trained medical doctor but rather to aid in blah blah blah, et cetera, et cetera. Something like WebMD has. I would think that this disclaimer is somewhere on the QW site, but I can't find it. Seems to me that if they don't have this disclaimer, it could be a lawsuit waiting to happen.) -- Levine2112 18:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Just knowing that true "peer-review" is only used for scientific research papers and that Quackwatch is producing very different types of articles should settle the issue. -- Fyslee / talk 22:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That's just it. The layman reader may not know that true "peer-review" is only used for scientific research papers or that which Quackwatch are not scientific research papers. On the surface, they certainly appear to be scientific research papers. Especially to the layman. We must make this clear. -- Levine2112 22:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Levine2112, you write: "On the surface, they certainly appear to be scientific research papers." Only someone who isn't familiar with what a scientific research paper looks like would say that. That's absurd. Since I doubt that applies to you, I suspect that you are trying to make an absurd point (violation). If no editor mentions the matter in the article, readers won't even think of it. This seems only intended to bring the straw man criticism of Stephen Barrett's arch antagonist (whose website is blacklisted here) to Misplaced Pages.

Don't underestimate people. They are not as obtuse. I think they take the articles for what they obviously are. Anyone who confuses a typical article on Quackwatch for scientific research is certainly an unusual and rare person. Fortunately making such a mistake won't get them in hot water, in contrast to those who blindly believe anything on alternative medicine websites, precisely because it isn't peer-reviewed by Big-Pharma-Stooges-Who-Are-Part-Of-The-Grand-Conspiracy. Those types of readers have little respect for real peer-review and seem to have an anti-science gene that has been manipulated into their brains. They automatically believe any type of nonsense around and refuse to believe anything if they discover it is backed up by real research. They are often termed true believers. So the few who might mistake some article on Quackwatch for scientific research will be in good hands because they will learn to avoid getting that nonsense gene implanted in their heads by reading alternative medicine websites. -- Fyslee / talk 00:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Your POV on alternative medicine is entirely clear and seems well-aligned with that of Quackwatch. However, your POV is not relevant here. Quackwatch's is. Given that QW boasts a 150+ technical advisory board, publishes articles which propound scientific research, cite peer-reviewed journals, and that we dedicate so much of this article to their credibility as a source, I think it is reasonable to believe that some people think its articles might be peer reviewed. That it is not is verifiable, reliably sourced and made completely notable by QW's own mention of it on their mission statement page. That alone should be ground enough to include this in the Wiki article... nevermind the fact that without mentioning it, we may be perpetrating a factual misunderstand for some readers. -- Levine2112 01:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Without a notable third party V & RS that states it, I don't see much point in further discussion (with you) on this matter. We're not getting anywhere. 02:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, we both are speculating now whether or not a reader might think that Quackwatch articles are peer reviewed. Neither of us know for sure, but considering Quackwatch's lack of peer review has been verified by a reliable source (its own Mission Statement!), I think we'd all have to agree that it would be better for this Misplaced Pages article to lean towards being more informative to the reader rather than less. -- Levine2112 02:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Why you are now insisting on a third party source is odd, considering so much of this article is self-referenced to Quackwatch and the Mission Statement page in particular is referenced 4 other times in the article! -- Levine2112 02:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll repeat what I wrote above:

You have gone beyond what is stated, and it is that part that is a SYNTH violation. The first part of what you write is the problem (and I strike it out here) and where you go too far:

* "Quackwatch.org's articles are not subjected to formal scientific peer review, but rather, reviewed by the medical advisory board upon request."

A simple statement noting that "Members of Quackwatch's medical advisory board review articles upon request," would do the job just fine.

If you want to include something that Quackwatch doesn't say, but which we know is true, then it should be possible to find it from a third party source. I have only seen it from a very critical source that is so bad it is blacklisted as a reference at Misplaced Pages, but if you can find a third party V & RS that says it, I am certainly open to including it. Let's see what you find. If it isn't an illegitimate straw man criticism, but a neutral statement of fact, then it would be a welcome addition, as far as I am concerned. Mind you, I have never claimed it wasn't true, but now that I understand the need for sourcing better and what is involved in a SYNTH violation, I regret that I have been a party to helping it stay in the article for so long. Now I know better and therefore I object to its inclusion without a good source. Find a good, neutral source and let's see what we can do with it. -- Fyslee / talk 04:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH deals with an A, B, and a synthesized C scenario. Can you please spell out the three variables here (A, B, and C) so we can all understand why you think WP:SYNTH applies. My position can be summarized with the metaphor foo and oof. All we need to know about foo is that it is the opposite of oof. When something is foo then it is not oof (and vice versa). I think this applies where foo represents peer reviewed and oof represents reviewed upon request. In other words, foo means that the usage of "peer review" is true and oof means that the usages of "peer review" is false. Quackwatch states that that it is reviewed upon request. Meaning that the existence of peer review is clearly false. There is nothing to synthesize. It either is or it isn't. Let's try another example: Either the ball is in the house or it is not. Those are the two possible states of the ball. In or out. Now we have a reliable source which says that the ball is in the backyard. We all know that the backyard is out, so clearly we can say the ball is not in. Well, we all know (or should know) what peer review means. Either something is or it isn't. We have a reliable source which says it's article are reviewed only upon request. We all know that this means it isn't peer reviewed. No synth necessary. Synth would mean that there is some source "B" , when all we really have is source "A" which verifies by itself that QW is not peer reviewed. "B" isn't even necessary. But still, I would like too see your views of the A, B, and C variables here. Perhaps SYNTH does apply and I am not seeing your rationale. -- Levine2112 04:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The matter isn't that black or white, simply because of the nature of how Quackwatch works and the nature of the misleading way that the "not peer-reviewed" criticism has been used. It has been used off- and on-wiki to imply (or outright state it as you and I'clast have done) that there is no editorial oversight at Quackwatch, that it is a one man operation, and that there is no fact checking. Well, none of those assertions have been true. Even if there isn't full "peer-review" as would be expected of a scientific journal publishing scientific research, even though Quackwatch isn't such a journal and isn't publishing original scientific research, there is some sort of fact checking going on. It just isn't strict peer-review, but it is the type of review appropriate for a website of its sort. The ball isn't quite "in" or "out", because there isn't just one ball, but two balls that are similar, but not equal. Now even I am getting confused....;-) I suggest that we get some input from others who understand SYNTH better. Let's get some input from admins who deal with this stuff all the time. -- Fyslee / talk 05:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

What kind of fact checking is going on at Quackwatch and can you cite where you get your information from? Let me get this straight, now you are saying that we can't say Quackwatch is not peer-reviewed (even though it is verifiable) because others have used this point to criticize Quackwatch? That's pretty twisted logic. If someone uses a fact as a criticism then we can't use that fact at all? I don't think so. -- Levine2112 07:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying that such criticism can never be used. Of coure it can. Just put on your NPOV glasses and see if it will make the article better, or will it make it a vehicle for further attempts to improperly slur Quackwatch. It depends on whether it's a V & RS or one of the typical critical sources, which are rarely good sources. Are you proposing to include legitimate criticism or illegitimate straw man slurs from fringe sources? If it's a deceptive statement that directly or by innuendo improperly slurs Quackwatch, then a rebuttal statement would be proper for balance. IOW, if you find a V & RS that criticizes Quackwatch for not being peer-reviewed, then a counter statement that "Quackwatch does not need peer-review or claim to be peer-reviewed" would be necessary. I can imagine it might look something like this: "Even though Quackwatch does not need peer-review or claim to be peer-reviewed, critic has leveled a straw man criticism that "Quackwatch is not peer-reviewed." Get the point? OTOH, if it wasn't a critical source that just makes it as a simple statement, it might be possible to include it without creating a doubt in people's mind, a doubt they would never have entertained if they hadn't heard it as a form of criticism, which is the purpose of straw man attacks. -- Fyslee / talk 07:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It isn't criticism. QW says that its articles are not peer reviewed. We are not sourcing any critics here to support this factual, neutral statement. We are sourcing Quackwatch itself. It is equivalent to saying QW has 150+ technical advisers; both statements have the same source and share the same POV. -- Levine2112 08:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it does not state that its articles "are not peer reviewed." You are synthesizing again. It does not address the question of peer-review for itself at all, since that is an irrelevant matter. Websites aren't normally peer-reviewed, with the exception of the one mentioned above, which is a medical journal that only appears on the internet. -- Fyslee / talk 22:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The fact that there exists an exception is even more reason to clarify that QW articles are not peer reviewed. This notable exception adds more to the ambiguity. Perhaps QW is an exception too? We all now know it is not, however a new reader may be confused (or deceived by the 150+ advisers). And yes, that QW articles are not peer reviewed is completely verified in the QW Mission Statement when they state that articles are only reviewed upon request. It is like having a source that says someone is dead. And then sourcing it to say that person is not alive. No SYNTH is needed; just a basic understanding of what it means to be alive and what it means to be dead. -- Levine2112 22:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

But it is somewhere in between, not either/or, as I explained above. As to the "exception", the rare person who knows so little as to be confused doesn't know about that internet journal and even a surface comparison would show no resemblance. Just because you are confused and think that "On the surface, they certainly appear to be scientific research papers." doesn't mean others are in the same boat. Don't dumb down the human race as an excuse to push this through. Give people more credit than that. -- Fyslee / talk 23:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not in between. Quackwatch articles do not go through formal scientific peer review. And I am not trying to dumb down the article; only trying to include verifiable, notable and relevant information which helps with the explanation of this topic. -- Levine2112 23:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Websites often republish various journal articles, so the issue of whether the content is, or accurately derives from, current peer reviewed material, is of interest. Especially on such a site where scientifically literate inspection repeatedly confirms "contaminated with incomplete data, obsolete data, technical errors, unsupported opinions, and/or innuendo...", both from Kauffman's examples and others. WP editors strongly favoring QW have tried to present & use QW as a WP:RS scientific source in areas where QW articles have howling technical discrepancies and rather biased opinions. So I think Levine's address of the "peer review" issue is valid. What sources are used and how summarized are a discussion but the SYNTH assertion and "troll" attacks appear to me to be part of a continual pro-QW promotional bombardment here that has yielded an increasingly POV and unreliable WP article that effaces legitimate criticism and less than favorable facts.--I'clast (talk) 13:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Outside opinions

I was asked by Fyslee for a third opinion . QW is not peer-reviewed, and there is no point in trying to say it is. It users a board of advisors, but that is not scientific peer review., which has a specific and narrow meaning. In fact, I know of no peer-reviewed website--the best ones are carefully edited and fact-checked, but that's not the same thing. the people running QW know perfectly well what peer review is, and don';t claim it for themselves. On the other hand, a great many non peer-reviewed sources are highly reliable. I think it fair to say that everyone thinks them so, except the people they attack. That's hardly surprising, after all. Just a brief opinion. and some personal advice to everyone: dont quibble over this sort of wording. DGG (talk) 10:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

DGG, I appreciate your third-party assessment. I think what you are saying here is pretty much agreed upon by all parties. Quackwatch is not peer reviewed. However, no one here is trying to say that it is. Just the opposite, we are simply trying to say that it isn't. Quackwatch itself says that it isn't right on their Mission Statement... articles are only reviewed upon request. It is this - the usage of this reference to state here that Quackwatch articles are not peer reviewed - where we disagree. Some editors feel that it is not notable to mention that Quackwatch is NOT peer reviewed for it is NOT many things. Others, such as myself, feel that it is notable because Quackwatch itself mentions it as part of their Mission Statement. Some editors feel that in order to derive from the Mission Statement that Quackwatch articles are not peer-reviewed, it requires WP:SYNTH. Others, such as myself, feel that there is no synthesis needed at all - that it is plainly obvious if the articles are only reviewed upon request then they are certainly not peer reviewed. Given your statement above, how did you conclude that Quackwatch articles are not peer reviewed? Bear in mind, peer review is a process which is not just reserved for the research of scientific journals but rather for any scholarly work going through an editorial and publication process. Anyhow, I hope that my summary of the various sides of this debate is accurate and I trust that I will be corrected if they are not. Thanks again for your input here and I would certainly appreciate further comment. -- Levine2112 17:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Review articles are not always peer-reviewed when they are published in in scientific journals and those are what in essence Quackwatch are providing. How about "Quackwatch provides summaries of the peer-reviewed literature, but does not publish original scientific or medical research." Tim Vickers 17:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that "summaries" is entirely accurate and I am not sure that they don't publish original scientific or medical research. Can any of this be cited? Their Mission Statement does state outright that Quackwatch articles are only subject to review upon request (and thus not peer reviewed). I think this is an important clarification which needs to be in this article. One might assume (I know I did at first) that given QW's impressive 150+ person technical advisory board, that their articles are subject to peer review; that some portion of this advisory board will review and verify every article published on the site. I now know that this is not true. Given the ambiguity, I believe that our Wiki article should make this clear (especially since Quackwatch makes it clear in their Mission Statement that their articles are not peer reviewed). -- Levine2112 18:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I had a look at some more of their materials and the testing of some products (eg link) would count as original research in my opinion. How about "Quackwatch publishes a variety of materials, including summaries of peer-reviewed research, accounts of medical malpractice or fraud, opinion articles, investigative reporting, and consumer testing on alternative medicine products." Tim Vickers 18:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

While this statement may be true, it still does not address the confusion of whether or not Quackwatch articles are peer reviewed. We know from their Mission Statement that they are not peer reviewed. A statement like the one you wrote, TimVickers, is welcome to the article (provided it can be sourced reliably). But we a currently addressing whether or not we should include a statement which explains to the reader that the articles of Quackwatch are not subject to any formal scientific peer review but rather are only reviewed upon request. -- Levine2112 18:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

"Quackwatch publishes a variety of materials, including summaries of peer-reviewed research, accounts of medical malpractice or fraud, opinion articles, investigative reporting, and consumer testing on alternative medicine products. Due to the varied nature of the material, the editorial process differs between articles, with some being peer-reviewed by members of the scientific advisory board, and others representing an author's opinion." Tim Vickers 19:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I applaud your effort. It all true, except most represent an author's opinion. How do we WP:V it? --Anthon01 19:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

We don't know if any of the articles are peer-reviewed by member of the scientific advisory board. The statement on the Mission Statement is too ambiguous to infer that. All we know is that the articles on Quackwatch are not peer-reviewed, but may be "reviewed" (by whom, we don't know) upon request (by whom, we don't know). -- Levine2112 19:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Barrett says that some are, but most aren't. --Anthon01 19:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Since we don't know the relative proportions, we need to just say "some" are and "others" are not, that is why my proposed wording isn't specific on that point. Tim Vickers 19:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

My sense of it is that even saying "some are peer reviewed" comes off as an overstatement. Regardless, there is no evidence that any article goes through the rigors of formal scientific peer review, but rather verifiable evidence to the contrary. -- Levine2112 20:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Is it actually possible, by definition, for a non-journal to be peer-reviewed? It's a long, formal process that only works with a very, very long lead time from article to posting. Adam Cuerden 20:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure, according to the Wiki article for peer review, any scholarly work can be peer reviewed, not just those appearing in a journal. That being said, it might be enough to just state outright that Quackwatch is not a peer reviewed journal (to avoid any confusion). -- Levine2112 20:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not even remotely plausible that a reader might confuse a website with the name "Quackwatch" with an academic scientific journal. This isn't something you have to worry about. Tim Vickers 20:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah but is this article suppose to be an adjunct to Quackwatch? Is this how this encyclopedia functions? With 150+ advisors and all, you would never know that from the article itself could mistaken its review process for something more formal. You would have to go to Quackwatch to find that out. Just like any other encyclopedia, shouldn't the article be able to stand alone on its own? --Anthon01 20:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, I don't think I should depend on the 'title' or a visit to the website to clarify QW's review status. I think it should be part of the article. Just like any other encyclopedia, the article should be able to stand on its own? --Anthon01 21:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I was fooled at first. Even recently when we began this discussion and I couldn't find the text on the QW site, I started questioning my recollection and thought perhaps QW articles were in fact peer reviewed. I think we should err on the side of more information here rather than less, especially since this information is totally verifiable. -- Levine2112 21:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

No offence, Levine - and I do mean that, because the way I'm about to phrase this is rather awkward, but I can't think of a better way - but a moment of stupidity on your part does not mean that every person reading will make the same mistake. Adam Cuerden 22:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it is an honest and common mistake rather than stupidity. (No offense taken.) Don't forget that Quackwatch is written for the lay person, who might not otherwise no the difference between peer review and not peer review. BTW, I am a lay person. I am not a scientist, doctor, or even an alternative medicine practitioner. Again, since this information is verifiable per thei Quackwatch Mission Statement, then why not risk our encyclopedia being over more informative rather than less? -- Levine2112 22:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Review articles are either peer reviewed or invited, and they are always signed by named contributors, with a known and usually distinguished background. Some Quackwatch articles meet this standard. Some don't. the ones written by named scientists have the authority of their position. The ones that are copies of outside statements have the authority of the organization that made them, which is often very high indeed. The many written by Barrett rest on his personal authority--I consider him a very reliable medical journalist, but nobody has truly authoritative scientific knowledge over the range of the field he covers, and he does not claim to have such. The ones written by staff writers have only the authority of the publication as a whole, which is basically Barrett's--the reliability of good medical journalism.

I think the present statements in the article reasonably accurate about the authoritativeness. It is very widely accepted in the scientific part of the medical community. (and me personally. )

I suggest the way to go when quoting it is to give the nature of the authorship of the particular article. Most articles have good bibliographic references, which can also be quoted.

I would suggest to Barrett that what would add to the authoritativeness is the listing of names of individual reviewers for each article.

Calling his articles peer-reviewed, or the equivalent of peer-reviewed, is I think a confusion which should be abandoned. Calling them responsibly edited is much more accurate. DGG (talk) 23:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Calling them generally responsibly edited would be both OR and technically questionable in specific cases.--I'clast (talk) 13:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Consensus on "peer-review"

Is it too much to assume that the lack of responses means we're reached consensus? Currently, the article reads, "Quackwatch.org's articles are not subjected to formal scientific peer review, but rather reviewed by the medical advisory board upon request." Have we agreed that "are not subjected to formal scientific peer review" is not verified and original research (a synthesis), and so should be removed? I haven't bothered to give much time arguing that it violates NPOV as well, given that it already these two other arguments against it.

Can we move on to deciding on an alternative for the text? There are some very good proposals already, but few editors have participated in working on them at this point. I think that more would participate in rewriting it if we all agreed that we've reached a consensus that will be respected. --Ronz (talk) 04:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

It would make sense to rip that clause out and clarify upon whose request the articles are reviewed by the advisory board. Antelan 04:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately we don't know that information yet. Working on it. Until then, what is there is what we know for sure. -- Levine2112 06:08, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that Ronz's suggestion is correct, or should be. Describe the role of the advisors, and so on, but why say it's not something it never claimed to be? Adam Cuerden 06:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that we don't have and V RS to describe the role of advisers in terms of review other than that they don't lend peer review to the Quackwatch articles. This is from the mission statement of Quackwatch. Show me another V RS which describes their roles any differently. -- Levine2112 07:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

From the comments above, I think we've come to consensus that "are not subjected to formal scientific peer review" should be removed per WP:V and WP:OR. Thanks to everyone for getting us this far! --Ronz (talk) 17:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

No consensus yet. Please don't take any action until a true consensus has formed. I am certainly against removing it and it seems several editors from previous conversations are also against its removal. Please continue this discussion as many feel that WP:V and WP:OR are completely satisfied here. -- Levine2112 18:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The discussion is over. Sorry that you don't agree with the consensus. Please see WP:CON on how to proceed. --Ronz (talk) 18:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I would surmise here that you don't understand WP:CON or are choosing to ignore it. No consensus has been formed here. Some suggestions have been made but certainly no agreement has been reached to do anything yet. I think your insistence here that consensus has been achieved borders on being disruptive. Please be more respectful of the opinions of other editors here. -- Levine2112 19:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Moving on, I think we've come to consensus that "are not subjected to formal scientific peer review" should be removed per WP:V and WP:OR. It's been days without any response to the many comments. Since I started this discussion here, it's apparent that we're ready to work on new wording. --Ronz (talk) 19:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see consensus yet either. Anthon01 (talk) 19:24, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUS does not require unanimity. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:51, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I see very clear consensus, after discussions that cover maybe a fifth of this page, starting with Talk:Quackwatch#The_.22Peer_Review.22_or_lack_thereof_cite, consisting of over 200 edits here since 27 November 2007. --Ronz (talk) 22:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a fairly basic point. If several people disagree about whether consensus has been reached, that in itself is sufficient to prove that consensus has not been reached. Your statement that you see it means very little. If you had a true consensus, everyone would agree both that it exists and what it is, and an outsider like myself would quickly agree that it exists (while potentially remaining clueless as to whether it is right). To put it bluntly, your declaring a consensus does not create one. You and the others agreeing creates one. GRBerry 22:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Consensus does not mean everyone agrees to the decision, but that everyone abides to it. This discussion page was dead for five days. I started this discussion with the assumption that this means we have an agreement. No one disagreed with me until I bring it up for a second time, and then one of the opposing editors requests the discussions be continued. I pointed out to him that consensus does not work that way. He responded with personal remarks, in violation of WP:TALK. I don't think the discussions have to be continued at all if no new arguments are being offered. --Ronz (talk) 22:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

We recently had an administrator lose their administrative status in part because they mistook silence for agreement. Silence is not consent, silence is silence. This is especially true when an article is protected - if it isn't popping up on the watchlist, a lot of editors go where their watchlist is active. Go forth and find a position upon which consensus can form, but abandon your claim that you already have it. I'll give you a hint - it will probably have to be something different than what has been proposed thus far, just saying "yes" "no" "yes" "no" will never reach a consensus. Consensus is formed when the discussion goes "Well, how about this", discussing the good bad points, then proposing a new alternative "well how about version2", "version3", ... until you find a version that people agree is the best chosen. Look at what happened at the Talk:Pace memorandum; they went back and forth and got outside opinons until they had seven different alternatives - had discussed the good and bad points of all of them - and then discussed which they preferred and measured consensus in a way that an outside party could see there was a clear consensus. You haven't done it. Try. GRBerry 23:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Hence, I started this discussion. This discussion isn't about alternatives, yet. It's simply about the application of WP:V and WP:OR to an unsourced statement. On most other articles, such a discussion wouldn't even be necessary. After all, it's up to the ones that want the information to prove it belongs. However, here it seems even basics like this need to be discussed for days.

By my starting this discussion, I got other editors to start suggest alternatives, but when I brought up the assumption that they were working on, that there there was agreement on "peer review" being removed, it became apparent that the assumption was wrong. I'm simply breaking down a dispute into pieces, to prevent the type of stonewalling (three months of stonewalling, in fact) that has occurred in the past. If we continued discussing alternatives, I fear that all our work would be undone by someone simply disagreeing on the "peer review" matter. --Ronz (talk) 00:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

One way to look at this is that we could leave "not subjected to formal scientific peer review" in the article, but then who's to stop someone from adding "Quackwatch makes no pretense of being a government body," "Quackwatch does not taste like ice cream," or any number of true statements that are nevertheless "un-sourceable" to this article? Antelan 22:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

But your examples make no sense to the average reader. When you hear about 150+ advisors and the popular press sourcing of quackwatch, a reasonable person may wonder about level of credibility assuming perhaps that they might conform to the highest level of review.

I had an issue with "Consumer Magazine" about a year ago. I assumed that based upon their 'thorough' reporting on consumer issues, that they're methodology must follow standard scientific norms and perhaps 'maybe' peer-review. I called them to ask about their methodology. It turns out they refused to tell me how they tested their products. It was a surprise to me. Some of you might say, "Just look at Quackwatch, and it won't take long to figure ..." That may be true, but I don't think this article is meant to be an adjunct of QW. This encyclopedia article should be able to stand on its own. Making it clear to readers what is obvious from QW statement should be part of the article. Anthon01 (talk) 00:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That argument has been made before and it is a good one. However, that Quackwatch is not peer reviewed is made clear in their Mission Statement where they state that the articles are only reviewed upon request. The ambiguity here is what is meant by "reviewed" and whose request are they talking about. But what is clear from this statement is that the articles are not subjected to formal scientific peer review. Quackwatch felt it necessary to mention this (perhaps to avoid any confusion which someone - such as me - might have when questioning the research and analysis which goes into these articles). From the Mission Statement, now I know that these articles are not reviewed as a rule and are not formally peer reviewed at all. I think I remember seeing a statement made by Barrett in which he said he uses his wife to review his writings, but I hardly think that counts as formal peer review. -- Levine2112 22:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Let's not repeat old arguments. If no one has anything new to say, then I think it's time to move on. --Ronz (talk) 22:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Please respect Antelan's argument. It's a good point (even though it has been made here before by Fyslee). To Antelan, it is a new point and I have no issue with repeating the counterpoint to this argument. -- Levine2112 23:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Please respect WP:TALK and the header at the top of this page, "Please review the recent comments below. New views and ideas on the subject are welcome; however, if your beliefs reflect already existing contributions, please consider withholding them." --Ronz (talk) 23:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

That's nice but it is still no reason to ignore or dismiss Antelan's point. That would be rude, in my opinion. -- Levine2112 23:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Please follow WP:TALK and don't make accusations that someone is being ignored, dismissed, or rude.

The problem is that while some editors may be interested in repeating the same old arguments, it is rude and dismissive of those editors who previously participated in the exact same discussions. They may not be able to repeat themselves, nor should there be a need for them to do so. Finally, this is not an argument where the last person to speak wins, nor where the person who speaks the most wins. --Ronz (talk) 23:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me that if consensus has not been reached you may need to repeat yourself. If fact that's what we have been doing through this discussion. Anthon01 (talk) 00:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not. When I say to read WP:TALK, I mean just that. Repetition of arguments should be unnecessary. Clarification and progression of arguments are what we're after here. --Ronz (talk) 00:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Ronz, I happen to agree with you on the content issue, but I think you need to cool down. Your refactoring of my comment to give it its own inaptly-titled section was inappropriate, and your aggressive argument against speech on this page is not a winning one. I would say that there are very few actually distinct arguments to be made on any one issue. Argumentation largely consists of re-seasoning the same ideas to appeal to different palates. This is acceptable, even desirable. Continued discussion does not mean that consensus has not been reached. Antelan 00:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to give it a new name. I think it deserves a new section. I'm cool. If you want to continue this argument, it would be helpful to at least to point to the identical ones earlier. You're already being nit-picked over issues that have no bearing at all. --Ronz (talk) 01:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I think it requires the context, which is why I didn't break it into its own section. I agree that I'm being nitpicked, which is why I took pains to emphasize my view that there is probably a consensus despite continued discussion, if that makes sense. I think the change can be made. Antelan 01:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

What change? Can you describe the change which you'd like to make. Above you describe alternate wording. What is your suggestion? (P.S. Sorry if you view this as nitpicking. To me, it is asking everyone to be absolutely clear about their rationale. I know that is a tall order at times, but I think if we can all be clear, there will be less misunderstandings and aggressive arguments made.) (P.P.S. I still maintain what others have maintained during the course of these discussions; that Quackwatch's lack of peer review is verifiable from the reliable source of their own Mission Statement. And while notability is not necessarily an inclusion criteria, the knowledge that Quackwatch articles are not subject to any formal peer review is certainly relevant to a website which propounds medical advice for the masses... much more relevant that Quackwatch not tasting like ice cream. Make sense?) Any how I am open to suggestions on how to improve this phrasing, but I want to be clear that there is no consensus here yet, but I am (as I always am) open to fostering one. Thanks all. -- Levine2112 01:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it is reasonable for people to remove the line regarding the non-peer-reviewed-ness. I'm not going to do it myself, because I would prefer to wait until we can flesh out the rest of the sentence. But if someone wants to do that now, it seems reasonable. I know that you do not agree with this. Antelan 01:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

And neither does several other editors here. So why invite edits against consensus? I do think we can flesh out the rest of the sentence. So let's do so first... that's a compromise which I would certainly abide to. -- Levine2112 01:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"that Quackwatch articles are not subject to any formal peer review is certainly relevant to a website which propounds medical advice for the masses..." absolutely so. There is surely little really to argue about on that sentence. It should appear in the article. Peter morrell 15:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That's very well, Peter, but we need a notable reference or it's OR. Adam Cuerden 17:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating myself, Quackwatch's Mission Statement makes it abundantly clear that their articles are not subject to formal scientific peer review. -- Levine2112 17:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems like you believe that unless QW says it verbatum, then it cannot be said? Is that what WP:OR really means? It certainly doesn't appear to be the case on Misplaced Pages. Does anyone here doubt that what QW posts on its Mission Statement means anything but ... they are not peer-reviewed? Is making an "In other words" statement OR? Anthon01 (talk) 17:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I mean that you cannot add criticism that no notable article in any reliable source has ever said. Adam Cuerden 18:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Please don't conflate this with criticism. It is not. -- Levine2112 18:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

In which case, you should really cite the mission statement itself either just as a cite or as a small quote with the cite. thanks Peter morrell 17:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

An excellent suggestion... and one which we have already done. (Great minds think alike!) In fact the very first sentence of this article relays Quackwatch's Mission Statement pretty adeptly. In fact, the Mission Statement page on Quackwatch is cited several times through this article. -- Levine2112 17:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"No peer review" unverifiable?

"Quackwatch.org's articles are not subjected to formal scientific peer review" is how the article currently reads. This phrase is not currently verifiable by the source listed.

WP:PROVEIT makes it very clear who and how this material should be verified. The editors claiming this is verifiable need to provide us with a source. That source should contain the phrase "formal scientific peer review" for it to be verified. Editors have repeatedly asked for such a source, but none has been provided (that I can identify in the discussions above, nor in any discussion that's happened around or since "peer review" was first added to the article unsourced .)

I am unable to find anyone ever mentioning any source that says "formal scientific peer review". If one exists, please simply identify it for others to evaluate. --Ronz (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Anthon01 mentions here on 20:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC):

Harrison states "Instead of challenging them in the appropriate scientific forum (peer reviewed index-medicus journals) Dr. Barrett and Allen Botnick, DC have elected a forum for which there is no recourse other than Dr. Barrett’s. My perspective is that Dr. Barrett and Botnick and the like would lose a formal debate with CBP® Researchers if forced to follow the scientific etiquette of peer-reviewed journals."

This does not verify the information in question, but at least mentions "peer review". However, I don't see it as a WP:RS. --Ronz (talk) 03:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Source precisely antithetical

Quackwatch's Mission Statement says that the articles are only "reviewed" upon some ambiguous request. This is precisely antithetical to the formal scientific peer review process; hence Quackwatch articles are not peer reviewed; hence this is proven, QED. -- Levine2112 22:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for providing a source! That doesn't meet WP:PROVEIT, since it doesn't contain "formal scientific peer review" or anything similar. --Ronz (talk) 22:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sure, just read peer review to learn all you need to know about peer review. It is a meticulous process which requires a heck of a lot more than just a review upon an ambiguous request. In my mind, WP:PROVEIT has been met. In your mind, it has not. Let's leave it at that. -- Levine2112 22:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Verified and proven?

Please don't get mad at me for repeating myself, but the Quackwatch Mission Statement page makes it abundantly clear that their articles are not subject to any formal scientific peer review. The most we can expect in terms of an ambiguous "review" on Quackwatch articles is ambiguous "request" made by some ambiguous party. Clearly, there is no formal peer review process (as one might assume there to be from a publication which propounds medical advice for the masses and boasts and 150+ scientific advisory board... I know I assumed so until I read the Mission Statement page). Please re-read the discussions above which discusses these very points at some great length. Let's let our encyclopedia relay this verifiable point to clear up any ambiguity or misunderstandings about the subject at hand. -- Levine2112 17:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me for repeating it here but it seems apropros. Seems like you believe that unless QW says it verbatum, then it cannot be said? Is that what WP:OR really means? It certainly doesn't appear to be the case on Misplaced Pages. Does anyone here doubt that what QW posts on its Mission Statement means anything but ... they are not peer-reviewed? Is making an "In other words" statement OR? Anthon01 (talk) 17:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC) Anthon01 (talk) 18:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It can be if it's saying they aren't something they never claimed to be, and that reasonable people would not think they are. If this fact is so important, wjhy are you unable to find a notable, reloable source that mentions it? Adam Cuerden 18:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, I think I am a reasonable person. Given that Quackwatch propounds medical advice for the masses and boasts and 150+ scientific advisory board, it is certainly reasonable to assume that their articles are subject to formal scientific peer review by said advisory board. However, this is not the case; a point which Quackwatch itself makes abundantly clear for us in their Mission Statement. We have used this same Mission Statement at least 4 other times in this article to support at least 4 other statements. -- Levine2112 18:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

A reasonable person with no experience with QW can read the QW article and think they might be. Anthon01 (talk) 18:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Anthon01, I've already spent considerable time with you discussing this on your talk page, I've clearly written my interpretaion of WP:PROVEIT above, and have asked for sources. While I appreciate your asking questions here, I think it best to do this in a sub-discussion as not to distract others from my original questions. Thanks!

I've subsectioned this tangential discussion, as I specifically asked for sources to meet WP:PROVEIT. Feel free to come up with a neutral title. --Ronz (talk) 18:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Considerable! Please. Anthon01 (talk) 18:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not involved, here are my thoughts: I think the criticisms of this site would work best of sourced, so if we want to point out that it is not "peer reviewed" we should attribute that fact to some critic. Ie: "so and so writes that..." etc. If there are no critics who have said this then we might need to leave it out, although I'm not convinced that it really constitutes synthesis to describe the fact that a source is not peer reviewed when writing on matters of science or health. futurebird (talk) 18:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Disruption of talk page

While I've never investigated how or when it's appropriate to do so, but I think it might be worthwhile to seek an end to the disruption here. It appears, as has happened in the past, that some editors are refusing to follow WP:TALK and WP:CON. --Ronz 17:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

What specific issues of WP:TALK and WP:CON do you feel are being violated here? -- Levine2112 17:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Because this is a repeated problem and other dispute resolution attempts have failed, I'm asking for others' opinions, per WP:DR. I'm doing so here in an attempt to quickly stop the disruptions to this page. --Ronz 17:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks like a clear case of refusal to respect the consensus of others. I think an RFC/U is in order at this point. --Ronz (talk) 19:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Outside opinion. #Consensus on "peer-review" shows three who hold one position and two who disagree. Arthur Rubin's position is unclear. Looks to me like a clear attempt to declare a consensus where none exists yet. Seek compromise and consensus before declaring someone disruptive for disagreeing with one that doesn't exist. GRBerry 20:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think there was a previous discussion on this, in which a number of editors felt it was inapropriate, and only two (but a different two) felt it appropriate. But I can't find it. However, even if not, Levine has failed to recognize clear consensus in the past, and it is not a violation of WP:AGF to note that fact. QG may be pushing WP:CIVIL, but.... — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Please provide a reference or repeatedly adding unreferenced information to this article may be seen as disruptive.  Mr.Guru  talk  20:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

GRBerry, thanks for the outside opinion. I agree that there is no clear consensus here. And I appreciate your defense of me not acting disruptively as Ronz has incorrectly declared. Arthur Rubin, I can't think of a time when I failed to recognize a clear consensus, but clearly what we have here is not a clear consensus. So assume what you would like about me, but without a clear consensus, there is no consensus for me to even fail to recognize. QuackGuru, I am unclear what you are talking about, but Quackwatch's lack of peer-review is made clear on their own Mission Statement which currently serves as a citation for the statement. I agree with Arthur Rubin that you are pushing WP:CIVIL (and have been for quite some time). Please consider contributing to this discussion in a more meaningful way. -- Levine2112 21:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm talking about a consensus reached by 8 (or so) editors making over 200 edits between 27 November 2007 and 30 November 2007. No one made any further edits until 6 December 2007, when I brought up the suggestion that there is consensus. --Ronz (talk) 22:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I remember it being pretty well split, though there have been some ideas to incorporate more information about how the articles are reviewed and what purpose the advisory board serves. However, there has been no verifiable evidence other than what is on the mission statement presented here yet. Please elucidate your comments above by providing diffs which show the 8 or so editors arriving at a consensus. Thanks. -- Levine2112 23:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a discussion I started about disruption of this talk page. If you would like to count editors, please do so and place them in an appropriate discussion. Please remember, however, this is not a WP:VOTE. Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 23:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You are the one who brought the "8 (or so) editors". I was just looking for clarification. -- Levine2112 23:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think Levine has legitimate points that are not being addressed in a collaborative spirit to yield an accurate summarization.--I'clast (talk) 13:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Verified

• Forgive my skulking about. . . the only dispuption I detect here is from Ronz. . . I agree with Iclast in that Levine's point is valid and the current phrasing is exceptionally verified. TheDoctorIsIn (talk) 18:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I concur as well with I'clast and TheDoctorIsIn. Levine has provided a reliable source, the website of Quackwatch, and there is no original research required to rephrase as he has done. Whig (talk) 18:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The statement is an interpretation of the source, being used to criticise it for being somethin g it doesn't claim to be. HOW is this justified? Adam Cuerden 19:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to you both for joining the discussion!

No one has verified this material, hence Talk:Quackwatch#.22No_peer_review.22_unverifiable.3F to make this crystal clear for new editors joining, as well as those that have already been through these lengthy discussions. --Ronz (talk) 19:02, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems that many others disagree - that they believe this information has been clearly verified by Quackwatch itself. I would appreciate that you don't mislead these new contributors by stating your opinion on this matter as an absolute. It would be a better summary to state that some feel it hasn't been verified and others think it has been. -- Levine2112 19:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

But let's remember WP:CON. It doesnt matter how many others disagree, if none are able to WP:PROVEIT. --Ronz (talk) 21:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:PROVEIT has been met per the Mission Statement. Harrison's critique is just the icing on the cake! -- Levine2112 21:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The mission statement does not mention "peer review" at all, failing WP:PROVEIT. --Ronz (talk) 21:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it says that the articles are only "reviewed" upon some ambiguous request. This is precisely antithetical to the formal scientific peer review process; hence Quackwatch articles are not peer reviewed; hence this is proven, QED. -- Levine2112 21:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Opinion from a truly uninvolved user

This was brought to my attention here.

I've only briefly looked at the arguments, and I don't know or care anything about the subject matter.

It is apparently not disputed that it's not peer-reviewed, and no-one is seriously saying it might be. (correct me if I'm wrong)

What we have, then, are one group of editors who think (based on what, I don't know) that it is somehow important to state this in the article, and another group who thinks that it shouldn't be stated unless it can be verified that anyone cares.

Before we go any further, can someone in the first group explain WHY it needs to be included in the article? Including such a statement may imply that it represents itself as being peer-reviewed, but if there's a particular reason to include it (clearly there's something driving your actions) that I've missed, I'd like to hear it.—Random832 19:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Given that Quackwatch propounds medical advice for the masses and boasts and 150+ scientific advisory board, it is certainly reasonable to assume that their articles are subject to formal scientific peer review by said advisory board. However, this is not the case; a point which Quackwatch itself makes abundantly clear for us in their Mission Statement. So why continue to include this information in our encyclopedia? 1) Since Quackwatch found it relevant enough to note on their Mission Statement. 2) Since it is reasonable to assume that readers of this Misplaced Pages article may be confused. 3) Since it is reasonable to assume that readers of Quackwatch articles may be confused. 4) Since Quackwatch dispenses health advice to the masses, information about the review status of their article is highly relevant. 5) Since Quackwatch claims to having a 150+ advisory board (a point made abundantly clear in this Misplaced Pages article) may lead a reasonable person to assume that said advisory board actually reviews each article in a peer-reviewed manner. 6) Since the information in question is made verifiable not just from a critic of Quackwatch but from Quackwatch itself. I hope this helps to clarify "this side" of it and please note that this side's opinions on this matter are much more grounded than Adam Cuerdan lead you to believe. I do appreciate you taking the time to review this issue. Thanks! -- Levine2112 19:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources saying that "it is reasonable to assume that their articles are subject to formal scientific peer review"? Do you have any reliable sources saying that there is a concern about people being misled? Have they received any notable criticism for not being peer-reviewed, or for giving an appearance of being so? If it is a real issue, it should be easy to find something showing that. Your personal opinions, though, are not notable. The problem here is: The fact that they are not scientifically peer-reviewed is verifiable (well, it's a primary source). The relevance of that fact is not (as far as anyone's been able to show thus far, at least) verifiable.—Random832 19:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I completely understand and agree with you that my opinion on the matter is irrelevant. I would venture to say that since Quackwatch itself saw fit to explain their lack of review process on their Mission Statement then that alone shows relevance. Yes, Quackwatch has received criticism for not being peer reviewed. This example I believe has gone on to a lawsuit against Quackwatch, though I am unsure what the current status of that is. As far as the relevance being verifiable, I would respond with, "Why is mentioning the 150+ advisory board relevant? Or why is describing their mission statement relevant. Or why mention their advertisers?" These are each primary source-derived information. Of course all of this is relevant information. Why else would Quackwatch mention it about itself? -- Levine2112 19:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

But is that site at all notable? Adam Cuerden 19:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes. -- Levine2112 19:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The author is noteable, perhaps more notable that QW as I found 25 citations in PubMed. Anthon01 (talk) 20:02, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Harrison states "Instead of challenging them in the appropriate scientific forum (peer reviewed index-medicus journals) Dr. Barrett and Allen Botnick, DC have elected a forum for which there is no recourse other than Dr. Barrett’s. My perspective is that Dr. Barrett and Botnick and the like would lose a formal debate with CBP® Researchers if forced to follow the scientific etiquette of peer-reviewed journals." This notable writer says QW is not peer-reviewed. Anthon01 (talk) 20:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Consider the source. If you can find someone who is not being attacked by QW stating that QW is not peer-reviewed, then you'll have a better case for inclusion. Otherwise, we might as well have critics write the article for us (a sure violation of NPOV). ScienceApologist (talk) 20:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

A notable critic is a reliable source for their own criticism. Thus, Harrison can be used as a source in this article as long as it is made clear that we are dealing with the opinion of a critic. -- Levine2112 20:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

A notable critic is only reliable as someone who criticizes. We are not, however, talking about criticism here, we're talking about description. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you there for sure. And that description has been verified by Quackwatch's own Mission Statement. -- Levine2112 21:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, though, more emphasis should be given to the fact that articles are only reviewed by their advisory board on request, and maybe it should be placed in the same sentence as the first mention of the advisory board (heavy rewording of that paragraph would be needed, with the added benefit of getting away from the back-and-forth that's been going on now). The facts can be made clearer without specifically negating a claim that no-one is making. In other words, we can better clarify what their review process is, without making potentially inflammatory statements of what it is not. I.e. we can reduce the risk of confusion in the first place rather than trying to address any potential confusion directly. —Random832 19:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I am totally open to your solution (as I have stated previously when others have made the same suggestion). I think it is something which we should work on here together and form a consensus first before we take any action with the article. -- Levine2112 19:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, their mission statement does NOT say specifically "not peer-reviewed", so that says that they did not find that specific fact relevant (i.e. they did not see any particular risk of confusion that they felt the need to clear up); rather, they explain how (by their in-house advisory board) and when (on request) their articles are reviewed. —Random832 19:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"they explain how (by their in-house advisory board) and when (on request) their articles are reviewed" - which translates to mean that their articles are not subject to formal scientific peer review. It is like a source saying someone is not alive any more and then we use that to say that this someone is now deceased. It's a 1:1 correlation with zero interpretation or synthesis. -- Levine2112 20:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Harrison states "Instead of challenging them in the appropriate scientific forum (peer reviewed index-medicus journals) Dr. Barrett and Allen Botnick, DC have elected a forum for which there is no recourse other than Dr. Barrett’s. My perspective is that Dr. Barrett and Botnick and the like would lose a formal debate with CBP® Researchers if forced to follow the scientific etiquette of peer-reviewed journals." This notable writer says QW is not peer-reviewed. Anthon01 (talk) 20:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This writer is not reliable as he is not intimately connected with QW review processes. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

How do you know that? -- Levine2112 21:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

If it's a minor point of criticism, and must be identified as coming from a critic, it shouldn't be included in the neutral statement of how Quackwatch is set up. It may be appropriate for the criticism section, but NOT where it's being proposed. Adam Cuerden 16:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Workshop

This section is intended for listing and discussing proposed compromise versions of the paragraph at the center of the dispute. —Random832 19:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Version 0a

This is the version currently protected, and the one that has been favored by one side of this edit war.

Quackwatch engages the services of 150+ scientific and technical advisors. As of 2003, 67 medical advisors, 12 dental advisors, 13 mental health advisors, 16 nutrition and food science advisors, 3 podiatry advisors, 8 veterinary advisors, and 33 "other scientific and technical advisors" were listed. Quackwatch.org's articles are not subjected to formal scientific peer review, but rather reviewed by the medical advisory board upon request.

• I have underlined the material not present in version 0b. They do not otherwise differ. —Random832 19:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Version 0b

This is the version favored by the other side of this edit war.

Quackwatch engages the services of 150+ scientific and technical advisors. As of 2003, 67 medical advisors, 12 dental advisors, 13 mental health advisors, 16 nutrition and food science advisors, 3 podiatry advisors, 8 veterinary advisors, and 33 "other scientific and technical advisors" were listed. Quackwatch.org's articles are reviewed by the medical advisory board upon request.

What argument is there for version 0a?

I simply do not see why we should include bits about formal scientific peer review found in Version 0a and I'm finding it very hard to extend good faith to those arguing for such a version. It seems to me that the inclusion of such wording is simply there to make a point that QW isn't peer-reviewed even though it often points out how little peer-review evidence there is for the quackery it debunks and exposes. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I am simply trying to keep relevant and verifiable information in this article. I am certainly not trying to make the point which you have outlined, but now that you mention it, it is interesting. However, I don't see how the manner in which this statement is currently included even insinuates such a point. I would suggest that you try harder to assume good faith and be careful when leveling such an accusation as WP:POINT in an already contentious environment. -- Levine2112 20:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Please use some other term than "verifiable", since it's clearly not per WP:PROVEIT. --Ronz (talk) 20:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I am more suspicious than ever now. It is very hard to assume good faith when the would-be-editors throw around hearsay accusations as below for justification for their designs on this article. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Please tell me which statement you would like me to back with a source and I will try my best to provide you with one. -- Levine2112 21:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

You've already read the request, but just haven't supplied the source that meets the criteria: Talk:Quackwatch#"No peer review" unverifiable?. --Ronz (talk) 21:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

...in your opinion. -- Levine2112 22:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it's general consensus that you have failed to provide an adequate source at this point. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggested compromise

Quackwatch engages the services of 150+ scientific and technical advisors. As of 2003, 67 medical advisors, 12 dental advisors, 13 mental health advisors, 16 nutrition and food science advisors, 3 podiatry advisors, 8 veterinary advisors, and 33 "other scientific and technical advisors" were listed. Quackwatch publishes a variety of materials, including summaries of peer-reviewed research, accounts of medical malpractice or fraud, opinion articles, investigative reporting, and consumer testing on alternative medicine products. Due to the varied nature of the material, the editorial process differs between articles, with some being peer-reviewed by members of the scientific advisory board upon request, and others representing an author's opinion.

A merge of one version with an expansion of what they actually publish? Tim Vickers (talk) 20:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems longwinded and unnecessary to me. Why do we care about what articles are looked at by peers and which articles are not? It's not like anyone is basing scientific research off of QW. Trying to explain the editorial process is just not relevant and doesn't help the reader at all. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I have in fact seen Quackwatch cited in some scientific papers, but more important, people base their personal health decisions off this site. Certainly that alone makes their editorial process extremely relevant. Tim Vickers, I don't think we can say "some being peer-reviewed by members of the scientific advisory board upon request" because we don't even know if the ambiguous "some" is true nor do we know if the review qualifies as "peer review". Peer review implies a level of scrutiny of experts in a particular field. We cannot account for this level of scrutiny nor can we account for the review being performed by an expert in a particular field. I recall seeing a quote from Barrett stating that he uses his wife to proof articles. Though I believe that she is a general practitioner, this hardly qualifies as true scientific peer review. -- Levine2112 20:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Your rationale are completely uncited. Just because "people base their personal health decisions off this site" does not mean we must explain the editorial process. Likewise, your say-so about QW citations is not good enough you must actually provide the citations. We should not, in fact, include any statement about the editorial process at QW because it is enough to state who is on the advisory board. Also, you continue to "recall" hearsay that is absolutely unacceptable for verifiability reasons. I ask you to refrain from using your memory in order to request editorial decisions and just stick to reliable sources. Thank you. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This article on Quackwatch discusses Barrett using his wife for Medical Advice on articles, but I am quite sure I have seen even more on this elsewhere at some point. -- Levine2112 21:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Even if it were true, which we don't know it is (I an suspicious of partisan hearsay) proofreading is distinct from review. I proof many of my colleagues papers before submission, but that doesn't mean that this is a part of the review process. You are confusing/conflating two very different processes. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

How about the above until the end of the last sentence; change that to "...some being, on request, reviewed by members of their medical advisory board and others simply representing an author's opinion." (I suspect that the level of review they claim does _not_, in fact, qualify as peer review, nor do they claim it does) —Random832 20:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any rationale for why the editorial process is at all relevant to the article. Can you explain? ScienceApologist (talk) 21:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with that Tim Vickers (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

ScienceApologist's is a good point that I hadn't considered before. There are the two primary reasons that I'm familiar with for using peer review: selecting which research to fund, and publishing original research. Quackwatch does neither. Trying to say it's not peer reviewed is like trying to say that Consumer Reports isn't an academic journal on par with Nature. True, true, irrelevant. Quackwatch is like a Consumer Reports for medicine. Antelan 21:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Quackwatch engages the services of 150+ scientific and technical advisors. As of 2003, 67 medical advisors, 12 dental advisors, 13 mental health advisors, 16 nutrition and food science advisors, 3 podiatry advisors, 8 veterinary advisors, and 33 "other scientific and technical advisors" were listed. Quackwatch publishes a variety of materials, including summaries of peer-reviewed research, accounts of medical malpractice or fraud, opinion articles, investigative reporting, and consumer testing on alternative medicine products. Due to the varied nature of the material, the editorial process differs between articles, with some being, on request, reviewed by members of their medical advisory board, and others representing an author's opinion.

I have a major objection to this statement:

Due to the varied nature of the material, the editorial process differs between articles, with some being, on request, reviewed by members of their medical advisory board, and others representing an author's opinion.

It looks to me like unwarranted synthesis and borders precariously on original research. There is no indication that the editorial process "differs" between articles. In fact, I would say it is likely that the editorial process is monolithic. This sentence insinuates that QW has differing "standards" when there is absolutely no citation that shows this is actually the case. At least the statement that some material is reviewed by members of the medical advisory board when requested, but there is no indication that this represents part of the editorial process, per se. It may simply be a matter of getting further input. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

A review by an expert is by definition part of the editorial process. Just as much as much as a review by a copy-editor. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

But that neither means that the editorial process "differs" nor does it mean that when an article represents an author's opinion is hasn't been reviewed. You see the problem? The statement stakes out an editorial "policy" for which we have no verifiable source. The only source we have related to this statement is that QW articles are sometimes reviewed by the editorial board. That's it. There is nothing to indicate anything about what QW's editorial process is, how it differs between articles, or whether opinion pieces are necessarily not reviewed. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

How about this then?

The editorial process differs amongst articles; some being reviewed by members of their medical advisory board only upon request and others having no formal scientific peer review at all.

-- Levine2112 21:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No. Levine, that slanted use of language is unacceptable. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Slanted? How? What part? I dropped Due to the varied nature of the material because that is unverified. We don't know why the review process differs from article to article other than that it is based upon some ambiguous request. -- Levine2112 22:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, come on, Levine. "and others having no formal scientific peer review at all"?! What's that supposed to be if not a WP:SYNTH smear attack. I know you're reasonably intelligent, please don't play dumb. Adam Cuerden 03:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Claims of SYNTH violations have been refuted time and time again so either you don't understand WP:SYNTH (which requires some source "A" plus some source "B" equaling some conclusion "C" scenario) or you have overlooked past conversations on this. And no I am not out to smear nor am I playing dumb. Everything in my suggested wording is absolutely true and - more important - verifiable. Quackwatch's very own Mission Statement tells us that their articles are only reviewed by their advisory board upon some ambiguous request. This means that only some articles are reviewed by their advisory board and the remainder are not reviewed at all. I believe this is exactly what my suggested phrasing says, but if you would like to suggest rephrasing, I am open to hearing your thoughts. But please drop the SYNTH argument as it is baseless and discontinue the lack of good faith assumptions. My appreciation is given in advance, so thanks. -- Levine2112 08:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The exa,ple given, at WP:SYNTH, is "If Jones's claim that he consulted the original sources is false, this would be contrary to the practice recommended in the Chicago Manual of Style, which requires citation of the source actually consulted. The Chicago Manual of Style does not call violating this rule "plagiarism." Instead, plagiarism is defined as using a source's information, ideas, words, or structure without citing them." That's pretty much what is being done here: You're synthesising the definition of peer review with information about the review committee in order to say it's not peer reviewed, and criticise Quackwatch. Adam Cuerden 12:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It just seems like wriggling out of the main facts. QW is NOT peer reviewed period. That is the basic unvarnished truth. How you try to dress it up is another question. The basic fact should appear somewhere in this article. That is all that is being proposed. Why is it such a contentious issue? why is that a criticism? I just can't see what the problem is in stating a bald and obvious fact. Why all the wriggling around? my ten penn'orth. thanks Peter morrell 12:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Explaining what review procedure is used is fine, but this is not explaining what is done: It is criticising them by synthesising a definition and what is done in order to point out something is not done. If this was so very relevant, you'd surely be able to find a newspaper report or something mentioning it. Your best attempt was to use a non-notable personal webpage. Adam Cuerden 14:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no relevance to the supposed "fact" that "QW is NOT peer reviewed period." What is relevant is that quacks like to use that as an excuse to ignore QW's attacks on their attempts to bilk the general public, but that's not the context of the sentences under dispute. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

What do the sources say?

I noticed the disagreement over noting that this website isn't peer reviewed, and just want to say that in cases like this it's best to go with the sources. Do any of them mention the fact that Quackwatch is not peer reviewed? (Also I have to say, assuming that anyone is out to "smear" the site demonstrates a lack of good faith.)

I realize that those who want to point that out are simply trying to assure that Misplaced Pages isn't coming off as supporting the site for several valid reasons. However we're supposed to be bound by information which can be somehow cited and also verified. In short if it looks like this:

Quackwatch

...is not a peer reviewed resource.

Then it's ok to mention. If it looks like this though:

Quackwatch

...is not a peer reviewed resource.

It should not be included. Anynobody 04:12, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Anynobody, you have an excellent point but who could possibly be a more reliable source on whether or not Quackwatch is a peer reviewed resource than Quackwatch? Whig (talk) 04:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a criticism, and thus needs to be said in so many words, not synthesised. Adam Cuerden 12:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll clarify: it's a criticism - your group has said so much above, where you talked about the need to identify Harrison as a critic saying that. It is thus inappropriate to include it in the section on mission and scope, which is a neutral setting out of facts. If it is to be included in mission and scope, you need to do much better than a random webpage, you'll need to find some notable description of Quackwatch that feels this is key information about it. If you want it to be included as criticism, the bar is lower - perhaps not as low as Harrison - but it still can't go where it is. Adam Cuerden 16:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it requires synthesis to state a fact that is clearly given by the source itself. We are allowed to rephrase, of course, if it does not require taking two or more sources and combining them. Whig (talk) 17:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

If this is a neutral rephrasing, why is the only source that can be found that uses it a highly critical one? Put it in criticism, if it's agreed the source will hold up to the standards. Not here. Adam Cuerden 17:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you're talking about the same source. The argument is that QW itself says it. We are talking about rephrasing QW's own mission page statement. Anthon01 (talk) 17:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I just used the phrasing which Anynobody was using for his example. I don't think it is a criticism so much as a simple fact, but I can see there are a diversity of opinions. Whig (talk) 17:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you (Adam) see "is not a peer reviewed resource" as criticism. Anthon01 (talk) 17:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The only context we have for sources discussing QW not being a "peer reviewed source" are criticisms. Therefore, for us to include anything like this in a neutral description of the site is obvious violation of neutrality. If you want to contextualize how quacks who are criticized by QW like to complain that QW is "not peer reviewed", that makes sense. But stating this as a plain fact is misleading given the sources we have on the subject. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

As it's being suggested to be included there, particularly in some of Levine's phrasings, yes, I do think it's intended as a criticism. As to the claims of it being merely a rephrasing of Quackwatch, my response is: If it was a neutral rephrasing (which is doubtful, as it adds information not found in the original), I think we should be able to find neutral or positive sources that mention it. If it's a notable criticism, then we ought to be able to find better-quality or multiple negative sources that mention it. So, if you'll forgive the slightly vulgar phrase, "put up or shut up". Show that others find it important to mention that it's not peer-reviewed, and show that this description is used in a neutral manner. Otherwise, consider it for the criticism section, if you can show that multiple critics bring it up as a criticism. Adam Cuerden 18:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that critical items were being integrated into the body of the whole article. As per Jossi, "the criticism section will be better merged into the rest of the article, rather than in a separate section." Anthon01 (talk) 21:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that if we agree it is accurate and verified by the original source then the question of specific phrasing is not a policy matter, but should be determined by the consensus of editors here. Whig (talk) 20:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Since we're still repeating the same arguments, pardon the tongue-in-cheek: Hey guys, I found a source that says the United States is not a dictatorship. Should we add that to balance out the article about the United States, despite the fact that the article never claimed that the country was one? Antelan 18:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• There are many forms of government. . . but a scientific work can only either be peer-reviewed or not peer-reviewed. Before this convo, I had assumed Quackwatch used peer-review. . . albeit their own brand of it -- in-house highly-biased Quackbusters reviewing the opinions of other in-house highly-biased Quackbusters. . . Now I know better. . . there's no review there at all. Sheesh! TheDoctorIsIn (talk) 22:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah and Barrett says his review is better than peer-review, because if he were wrong he'd be getting sued over all the stuff he has said. Anthon01 (talk) 00:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

TheDoctorIsIn, you can reframe any debate dichotomously, but that's not a strong respons. You say "Quackwatch is peer-reviewed or not peer-reviewed." I might say, "A government is dictatorial or not dictatorial." Again, this may be true, but irrelevant. In response to your personal beliefs: because Quackwatch never claims to be peer-reviewed, and because its name is so colloquial, it is hardly their fault that you erroneously believed their articles to be peer-reviewed. Since that's original research, let's refocus on the article at hand: Does this article presently give you the impression that Quackwatch is some sort of refereed journal? Antelan 01:10, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

A government can be dictatorial, democratic, monarchal, theocratic, oligarchical and much more. . . a scientific paper can only be peer-review or not. Levine212 and AnthonO1 and others have a point. . . given the 150 medical advisor statement. . . given all of the articles on all of the subjects. . . given many of the articles cite peer-reviewed journals. . . given Quackwatch aims to give midical advice to the hoi polloi. . . yes the article would give me the impression Quackwatch is refereed. . . but the key sentence makes it clear. . . "no peer-review". Keep the sentence and there's no confusion. . . lose it and the article gives the impression Quackwatch is. TheDoctorIsIn (talk) 01:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

This is rather simple - dichotomy is in the eye of the beholder. A document can be peer-reviewed or not. If it is not peer-reviewed, it can be independently edited or not. And so on. You can frame the gov't discussion the same way: A government is a dictatorship or not. If not, it can be representative or not. And so on. My point is that you choose how you want to frame things, and the world is not so simple as "peer reviewed" or "not peer reviewed". The article does not portray Quackwatch of being peer reviewed, but by reading the article you do get the sense that the opinions espoused by Quackwatch are well-respected. This is because the sources report that important groups respect Quackwatch's opinions, while fringe groups tend to take issue with them. Antelan 01:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you think an article request for comments would be helpful? Whig (talk) 02:09, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Whig it could, other opinions are always welcome. I have a question about your reply; Where does Quackwatch talk about its lack of peer review and/or the importance of it? Anynobody 02:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Their mission statement on their website states: "Members of our medical advisory board review articles upon request." Whig (talk) 02:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

To me that means people can send in examples they come across of possible new quackery. For example if someone read an article/ad/whatever claiming health benefits from bathing in lard, that person could then send a copy to Quackwatch (who will likely also mention it on one of their sites, if quacky enough). Medical peer review really isn't something an organization debunking questionable/unrecognized claims or products, which are suspect is why it hasn't been mentioned in the sources I've had a chance to look at. (On a side note, it's just a guess but I'm thinking that peer reviewers in this area have better things to do than evaluate how a website points out flaws and problems regarding topics like "body flushing".) Anynobody 05:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I think everyone has been operating under a misguided interpretation of that sentence from the Quackwatch website, but I think you've got it right. Antelan 05:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is out of chronological order. Participation is welcome by anyone wishing to comment. This box is simply for organization.

Started hereAnynobody 05:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I took that statement to mean what everyone else has, that the review board reviews when Barrett request it. I also confirmed it with Barrett. --Anthon01 (talk) 02:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, the statement is "Members of our medical advisory board review articles upon request." not health claims or dubious techniques or something else to that effect. Anthon01 (talk) 04:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Is it the mission of Quackwatch to write reviews of articles published elsewhere? —Whig (talk) 04:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Anthon01 Two questions:
1) Reviews what when Barret asks them to? (Whether x or y is Quackery?) 2) While I am willing to take your word for it sadly we can't cite that, can you provide some kind of proof of this confirmation? Anynobody 04:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Why is this wrapped with "out of order conversation" tags? —Whig (talk) 05:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Because here is where the thread diverged. A post was added 02:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC) before another made four minutes prior. This just helps anyone else reading this later keep the thread in order. Anynobody 05:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems arbitrary and confusing to me. —Whig (talk) 05:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry to confuse you, and assure you it isn't meant to be taken as arbitrary since at least one other thread here appears to have similar issues: Talk:Quackwatch#The "Peer Review" or lack thereof cite. Anynobody 06:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Out of chronological order discussion thread ends here.

Do you think we're ready to request a resumption of editing again? Anynobody 02:32, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. The large majority of editors have been absent from this discussion over the weekend. We need to wait a bit longer. --Anthon01 (talk) 02:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, however could anyone who thinks peer review should be discussed in the article please explain who/what says that peer review is pertinent?
So far I've only seen it mentioned in articles like this one but are themselves also self published rebuttals to a Quackwatch article, not reliable sources, and probably fall under how we deal with views of a vocal minority. Essentially if we cite pages like this, we are giving undue weight to a minority view. Anynobody 04:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

From Whig's talk page

(Here are relevant parts of something from Whig's talk page.)

If Quackwatch says they are not a peer reviewed resource, they should be considered reliable on that unless there is verifiable evidence to the contrary. Whig (talk) 17:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

But Quackwatch never says that, IOW that is OR. It never addresses the point because it is a moot point because no one expects websites, especially sites with such an obviously clear and critical POV, to be peer-reviewed. They only make a short statement and if we are going to address the point of review at all, we have to stick with that. Anything more is OR. -- Fyslee / talk 17:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that they do not say so. I think they clearly say they are not a peer reviewed resource by stating they have advisers who review articles on request. Whig (talk) 18:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

There are two things going on here, "affirmative" statements, and "denial" statements. We can make an "affirmative" statement: "Yes, they have a form of review of some articles," (my careless wording to get the point across), based on one citation. We can't make a "denial" statement: "They are not peer-reviewed," because we have no legitimate citation.

I agree that they are not peer-reviewed, but we aren't in the business of writing the "truth", only what is "verifiable" using V & RS. (Look up that wording here.) Fortunately truth us usually verifiable, but not always. Unless it is, it doesn't belong here, and that is rather fortunate since one person's idea of truth may not be another person's idea of truth. Quackwatch does not use the phrase "peer-reviewed" about themselves at all. That may seem like a minor detail when looking at the truth of the situation, but precisely those words have been misused (by its enemies) regarding the status of Quackwatch. While that would normally not have any bearing on whether or not we would make an edit here, it happens to make this issue more sensitive because those enemies are in active lawsuits with Quackwatch and the allies of those enemies are editing here and trying to get the wording of those enemies included. We do not run errands for libellers or other questionable persons. If Quackwatch doesn't use those words, and no other reliable sources use them, then any discussion of the matter in any article is OR. OTOH, if we can find sources that are V & RS, we might be able to include it. I have nothing against that. It must not be done as a criticism because it is a totally improper criticism designed as a straw man attack, no matter how it is phrased. (While inclusion of such types of criticism isn't always forbidden here, in this case the existing sources of that criticism happen to be so bad that they are already blacklisted here at Misplaced Pages.) If a good source just states it neutrally, then we could quote them and include it as a well-sourced factoid. So far I haven't seen such a statement, simply because good and sensible sources are usually scholarly sources, and they wouldn't engage in making such a denial statement when it is totally malplaced. It is as malplaced as stating that cow's milk is not shocking pink in color. Of course it isn't, but no reasonable person would ever claim it is, so that is a moot point and is ignored, rather than denied. -- Fyslee / talk 22:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Fyslee, I do not want to have a conflict with you about policy. If I understand the V & RS requirements both are satisfied in my opinion by Quackwatch as the source of our knowledge that they are not peer reviewed, a fact you concur in above. Whig (talk) 23:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no doubt about Quackwatch being allowed as a source in its own article, but unless you can find the precise words where Quackwatch explicitly and very exactly addresses any issue about its articles being "peer-reviewed" (exactly those two words), you (or anyone else wishing to include it) are engaged in OR. It doesn't address the question because it is not a legitimate question. Why? Simply because websites aren't peer reviewed (with one exception), only scientific research papers (and that exceptional website is an exclusively on-line scientific journal publishing scientific research). It's a non-issue with everyone except those who wish to use a "denial" statement (see above) as a subtle means of denigrating Quackwatch, and there are a number of enemies of Quackwatch here who wish to include such an editorial statement. Keep in mind I don't have any objection (as clearly stated above) to inclusion if we can find a neutral and reliable source stating it as a matter of fact. To the best of my knowledge reliable sources don't address the matter because it's a non-issue. It is only an issue to those who wish to denigrate Quackwatch. We don't help them using editorial freedom. We need reliable sources. -- Fyslee / talk 01:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Continued disruption of talk page

WP:DNFTT only goes so far. I think an RFC/U is in order. Other thoughts? --Ronz (talk) 02:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, go for it. Anything to break out of cyclic arguments. Adam Cuerden 16:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

There is more than one user being disruptive here. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Off the top of my head. . . I can think of three editors in particular. :-) TheDoctorIsIn (talk) 22:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

So can I, but I think there's only one editor in common between our respective lists. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 04:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this is helpful here at all. Whig (talk) 04:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

!

Do we really need six threads which are all virtually identical? Adam Cuerden 15:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

A couple of ideas

I'm not really that well-versed in this topic or the discussions, but might I suggest use of {{FAQ}}, {{Conclusion}}, {{Resolved}}, {{Unresolved}}, and {{Stale}} to help make discussion more productive? It would seem that topics are being rehashed, so if anyone has any ideas for some of the major issues that have already been dealt with, please consider posting them below for inclusion in a {{FAQ}} at the top of the page. I'll dig through the archives if you guys want, but for now is there any stuff that you have off the top of your head that seems to constantly be a problem? Cheers :) --slakr 12:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm fairly new to this topic as well but it does seem like it would be helpful to organize discussion in a fashion like you suggest. —Whig (talk) 04:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to at least try it, but the documentation on these templates is poor and Slakr isn't responding to my questions to him. Does anyone know how to use them, know examples where they've been used, etc? --Ronz (talk) 16:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I like these templates but don't know how to implement. Would agreeing on the actual content of FAQs be another can of worms? Or is it pretty straight forward? -- Levine2112 16:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything that we could put in a FAQ that has been answered. All I see we could do with a FAQ would be to link to discussions concerning those questions. Since there are questions and concerns that appear to be a constant problem, maybe we could address them this way? Otherwise, all I see is we'll be tagging just about everything with Unresolved. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's a resolution

We go with #Version 0b in the lead. If people want to discuss criticisms of QW's editorial policy in the context of criticism, we can do so, but that's a separate issue. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The way it reads now is much more informative. If you are unhappy with it, let's work out a compromise first which we can all agree not to change. Perhaps you can write how you believe the lack of peer review should read in the criticism section. That may be a healthy new step. -- Levine2112 16:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, who has criticized it for not being peer-reviewed? We need that to be able to go forward with putting that in the criticism section. You've claimed there have been cases of this and even lawsuits; so why not find some of those and come back with actual sources.—Random832 17:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism? The way it reads now clearly reflects the status of QW articles. It is not a criticism, just a statement of fact. Perhaps you can help me understand why, from your POV, you believe it is criticism? --Anthon01 (talk) 17:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Support: All the information in this Version 0b has been verified, while Version 0a has not, which is one of the primary disputes currently under discussion. (See Talk:Quackwatch#"No peer review" unverifiable?) --Ronz (talk) 17:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Disagree: I still think our original understanding of the mission statement is correct, contra the notion that their mission is to review external papers upon request. We may want to survey that question itself. —Whig (talk) 17:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Whig. Version 0a has been completely verified. -- Levine2112 18:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. --Anthon01 (talk) 20:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Please edit above the references section

• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Skepticism articles
• Top-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles
• B-Class Alternative medicine articles
• B-Class organization articles
• Unknown-importance organization articles
• WikiProject Organizations articles