Misplaced Pages

The actress in question was born on January 4, 1980, making a 2003 shot of her from when she was 23, a 2004 shot of her from 24, and a 2005 shot of her from 25. I can't believe I married my wife when she was underage! Hipocrite - «Talk» 05:09, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

The comment was lined out and kiddie referred to mental age, not actual age. --Noitall 05:14, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

• Latest news: , so called consensus ( = minus 3 Bobbi Eden pics ) , published by a well known Zombie, who possibly have returned for that purpose . MutterErde 12:33, 2 September 2005 (UTC) File:Cry.gif

I don't disagree with that consensus. The pictures are terrible - the box covers are just stupid to leave out there without comment.Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

em , but you have reverted the attacks of the mullahs ?! How can this version ( = minus 3 pics ) be a consense ? Confused MutterErde 16:25, 2 September 2005 (UTC) btw. What´s wrong with this pic Image:Bobbi-eden-please-flesh10.jpg ?? ( only one example) 16:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

The box covers don't make the article better - both from an informative perspective, and from a visual perspective. The big picture to the right does. Find more glamor shots and I'll defend them. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:45, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

This is NOT wikipedia:USA

by the way: This is not wikipedia:USA , this is wikipedia:en , and that includes not only the christian mullahs , that includes some more english speaking countries round the world. For example: While Mom is buying a newspaper in Sydney her kids can watch all these gorgeous boobs on the covers. They seem to whisper: "Buy us! Buy us! When you have not enough money , help your Mom washing the dishes. You will get a little money and then come back.We have not only gorgeous boobs - we can show you what your Daddy loves most on your Mom."

Lucky minors outside the USA !

Image:GoddardPlayboyEspana0195.jpg , Image:PBSamanthaFox11-88.JPG , Image:PBDrewBarrymoreGreeceFeb95.jpg , Image:HollyWitt-PB-February1996.JPG , Image:BoDerek-Dec-1994.JPG

MutterErde 08:24, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

• Special offer to the christian mullah crew , section USA:

Have fun MutterErde 09:32, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Note: Link spam/commercial advertisement is not permitted in WP. Not even in the talk pages where the intention is obviously just googlebombing. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 15:22, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

(just because the commercial site seems to have something to do with pornography/dating doesn't make it of interest to an anti-censorship project)

• bla bla bla MutterErde 15:45, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I agree with that. I must also add:

• Not only is wikipedia:en there for English speaking countries which are not USA, it's also there for any other people who can read (and write) in English. Many of which live in countries with completely different norms and mindsets than in the USA (or even any other English-speaking country). Misplaced Pages:en is a Misplaced Pages written in a most widespread language on Earth, and so it bears the responsibility of actually being the whole world's Misplaced Pages; biases should be avoided here even more than on any other language Misplaced Pages.
• Similarly to the example from Australia above, here where I live, the last thing I'd try to protect my children from, would be seeing a pair of boobs or stuff like that. Come on, aren't there more important stuff out there? Why such an obsession with censoring stuff which mainly deal with sex? I can see that sex is presented as something horrible, and plain nudity and such are very much mixed up with the actual sex (and plain nudity and pornography should really be treated different). If I had to choose, I myself would prefer to let my children watch a mainstream movie sex-scene, than a firefight scene full of blood and death. I actually find it disturbing that American censorship principles work exactly the opposite. --Arny 06:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Censorship Alert

Let's actually use this project for its purpose and now is our chance:

images up for deletion

It appears many images that were released under the GNU FDL are up for deletion by a user called THOR with no explanation given as to the problem. --ShaunMacPherson 15:43, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Censorship alert

SPUI (talk · contribs) made a recent test run of the WP:TOBY proposal, which basically calls for people to put the Toby image on any pages they object to for any reason, so that other people won't see those pages any more (through a requested software feature that hides all pages containing that image, and makes it impossible to remove the image once in place). In other words, a censorship policy. Maybe some people should go to that proposal's talk page and explain why it's not a good idea. Radiant_>|< 08:03, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Toby is more complicated than that - for one, it's opt-in, so images are only hidden from people who choose to have images hidden. Also, it's not forever - there's some complicated algorithm (Misplaced Pages:Toby/Do) that allows it to fade over time (or something like that, I don't quite get the idea). But do feel free to come comment on the proposal. ~~ N (t/c) 17:14, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Userbox

I know the big blue ribbon is already out there, but it's big so I made a userbox:

Tom 12:21, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

It looks good, but it's really difficult to read the lettering against that shade of blue. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 17:05, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

How about this version? The image is a little smaller, making the box narrower from the top to bottom, which (at least on my display) allows the text to fill it more. The background is changed from blue to lightblue, and the text is bolded. --FOo 18:31, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

That looks much better! --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 19:00, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi folks , I would like to have a similiar version , in red colour and with a instead of the blue ribbon. Anyone could do this for me and others? Greetings MutterErde 21:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Not I. That image is copyrighted, and we don't have permission to use it for that purpose -- neither from the creator, nor the model, nor from fair use / fair comment. --FOo 22:32, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

And in any case, why the hell would I want gratuitous nudity on my user page? ~~ N (t/c) 22:44, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

This user supports Wikipedians against censorship

{{{info}}}

OK OK , it was only an idea . Greetings MutterErde 22:59, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it would more appropriate for a different group, like Wikipedians for pornography, which is not what this group is. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 23:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

A woman with gorgeous boobs is "pornography" ? Hey Man , what you are doing here ?

Are you a spy of the christian mullah crew ? Hang him !

MutterErde 06:38, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

The light blue one definitely looks better. Tom 12:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Could someone please take a look at hogtie bondage. There are two users, one an admin, who is determined to keep certain images off of the page, that don't actually show anything but he has deemed them to be nudity, and has also decided that he doesn't want them there, dispite a lot of discussion on the subject, the vast majority against what he has done. There is also heaps of talk about how Misplaced Pages shouldn't have such images at all and is "G" rated and heaps of other censorship rubbish. The original material was on the page hogtie, and in all fairness it may have been an inappropriate place to have such images, but there is no mistaking what the subject hogtie bondage is on about, yet the images have been chopped. The admin says that the images arn't neccessary to the subject, citing that nudity is irrelivent to the subject, but the article explains that this is a sexual practise and so such images are to be expected. Anyway, can someone please take a look at the original version before the Admins edits and post their opions here and/or on it's discussion page because I really think this guy is pro censorship. --61.9.148.239 00:50, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

It may be porn, but it's encyclopediedic. The Republican 01:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

About "porn", "crv" and more

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.#I_expect_your_excuse

MutterErde 20:08, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The following comment was added on article by User:Paeris

They have try and censor on Doggy style. Help please.

Userbox v2

I have made a userbox easy for people to use.

{{User:Feureau/UserBox/freespeech}}

Thanks to whoever made it originally (I saw it somewhere an added it to my page, then improved on it and made it a real template, you inspired me. :) --Mistress Selina Kyle 01:40, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Doggy style

See http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Doggy_style&diff=prev&oldid=32040635

Editor is trying to remove nude image (that doesn't actually even show anything just is suggestive..), keeping only drawn pictures. Reasoning in Talk:Doggy style#Image is "Nobody has ever been offended by an orange, but many are offended by sexual photos" (User:Hedley).. I'm not involved in this but I thought I'd point out what the problem is in a more articulate way than the poor paniced newbie :) --Mistress Selina Kyle 01:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Project Template

I looked at the project templates I have for the Association of Inclusionist Wikipedians and for AWWDMBJAWGCAWAIFDSPBATDMTD, and thought to myself ' why doesn't WikiProject Wikipedians against censorship have one of these?. ' So, I made one:

What do you think? I think the text could use a rewording. I just copied the project info from the project page because I couldn't think of what to put. Any ideas?

The template is {{Freespeech}}, if anybody would like to use it now.

That should have been a userbox, it's way too big. The Republican 20:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC) --¿ WhyBeNormal ? 06:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Note that TfD has now deleted this template; the appearance above is hardcoded into this page.

That should be a userbox. The Republican 20:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It is. Template:User freespeech. Gerard Foley 21:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:User Bill of Rights

Hi, I'm sorry you did not feel the issue at Misplaced Pages:User Bill of Rights was worth of notice on the notice board. The notice board states:

This notice board is intended to inform members of the project of votes or other current Misplaced Pages events which warrant their attention with regards to this project. Please do not list articles in need of attention here, but rather votes for deletion, votes for policy change or other current and ongoing events which warrant the immediate attention of the member base of this WikiProject. Please remove notices when votes are closed, or the event is no longer current.

and this is clearly a question of policy change. I also respectfully disagree that the question is related to censorship. Censorship takes many forms, one of which hides itself as adminstrative privelige.

I am adding my notice to the talk section here, in case other members of this assoication feel that the issue is worth consideration. --BostonMA 18:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

30 Dec 2005

Misplaced Pages:User Bill of Rights is a proposed policy / guideline that has been supported by Wikipedians who are concerned that the long term neutrality of Misplaced Pages depends upon input from minority viewpoints. Continued input from minority viewpoints, in turn can be assured only if the actions of admins and ArbCom are applied fairly and with an even hand. Although the proposed policy / guideline is under active discussion , , there have been attempts to close the discussion on the grounds that "there is not a snowball's chance in hell" that such a proposed policy / guideline will be accepted. One editor was sanctioned for an allegedly "disruptive" edit, of removing a "rejected" template while discussion was ongoing . Your input on this matter would be greatly appreciated. (The current version of the proposal appearing on the page is a semi-blanked version which was semi-blanked by opponents of the proposal.) --BostonMA 14:01, 30 December 2005 (UTC

I do see how the proposed policy could be indirectly related to censorship, but the connection seems weak at best. I imagine most of the people watching the notice board are more interested in issues directly related to Misplaced Pages censorship. Perhaps a better place to promote the policy would be Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals). Kaldari 21:05, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Shock sites

I'm just trying to make sure I get this right; you don't condone material that can be found on shock sites, do you? I don't think I need to go into specifics. --Anittas 17:37, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

We don't condone anything. We support the current Misplaced Pages policy, which states: "While obviously inappropriate content (such as inappropriate links to shock sites) is usually removed immediately, except from an article directly concerning the content (such as the article about pornography), some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links, provided they do not violate any of our existing policies (especially Neutral point of view), nor the law of the state of Florida in the United States, where the servers are hosted." Kaldari 23:54, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

userboxes.

Stop with the userboxes alerts, please. This project, and it's longest term members, come down on differing sides of said controversy. Do not obscure our purpose (RF - the change to the censorship clause, the Quaran picture) Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:44, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedians against censorship on Japanese Misplaced Pages

I just created the "Wikipedians against censorship" project page on Japanese Misplaced Pages. link Hermeneus (user/talk) 12:00, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

If my Japanese was any good I would help you out, but I wish you good luck with it! 頑張って！Gerard Foley 17:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Refactored from alerts page:

• • • While you are keeping wikipedia uncensored, you might want to read about straw men and maybe even why slippery slopes are silly and why the Iran argument makes no sense Mikkerpikker ... 16:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Problem at Sun tanning

I tried to add free license images to this article but User:Wyss is being funny about it, reverting my version here and claiming that the top image will eventually be removed by "other users". I would appreciate peoples help and/or advice on this. Thanks Sven the merciless 04:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I can see why this picture can be interchangible with other pictures which are less revealing, but I don't see why removing that picture for another picture is censorship. Plus, I feel only one or two pictures are needed for the article, and atleast one picture should be a picture which documents sun damage upclose. A sun burn perhaps? --OrbitOne 19:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

LordRevan and Admin Cencorship of Templates

I am OUTRAGED to learn that the powers-that-be have cencored many of the templates that were considered "politically incorrect." We as the Wikipedians aganist Cencorship should fight against this. Considering the fact that the Administration has cencored these right-winged based templates, I believe that many of the left-wing templates should be taken off of this site. Some of the right-wing templates that have been censored are Anti-UN, Wikipedians who believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, Wikipedians who consider themselves Politically Incorrect, Wikipedians who are Pro-life, Wikipedians who consider themsleves Born Again Christians. These are all of the ones that I can think of that have been cencored, but there could be more. As a user, I believe we should combat all forms of censorship. I think all those who agree with me should rise up against the left-wing held admin and set things right. LordRevan 22:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

This is for censorship of Misplaced Pages articles. The place to complain about your userboxes being censored is WP:UBP. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Help

Guys, i need help. As you know, wikipedia has every type of things that are notable only withing a small group, everything from articles disgusting sex games, to pokemon cards, to warhammer to UFO.

My problem is that as soon as i creat a article in good faith and in aimes to enirch wikipedia with representation of the ideas of the 9/11 Truth movement, there comes a AFD on the article within 5 houres, claiming it has no notability in the big world. Take a look at this, and give me a comment:

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Conspiracies_Guild#AFD.27s

Thanks and peace. --Striver 17:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, is there any other WikiProject that could be intrested in taking a look at this? --Striver 17:50, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It is not censorship to delete your poorly written, uncited, unverifiable bad articles. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:38, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Userbox policy poll

I only just found this poll. Perhaps people here would be interested. Gerard Foley 21:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Stop it. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Censorship Alert - Justin Berry

In an unprecedented move, Jimbo deleted an article about Justin Berry after Justin Berry called Jimbo over the phone and complained to him about the content of the article (the contents of the original article can be seen here). Since Jimbo violated his own rules regarding the handling of content disputes and never specifically listed what was wrong with the article, nobody is quite certain of what facts are "appropriate" for the article, and which are not. Attempts at reinserting the factual information from the deleted article are now being censored by a handful of editors. Corax 22:28, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

This isn't censorship - it is asking for sensitivity about a living person - and there are no restrictions on the recreation of the article. There is just extra vigilence expected taht everything included by verifiable and meet the rules of the NPOV. Trödel&#149;talk 01:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

First, restricting the content of what is supposed to be an encyclopedia because that content might offend or otherwise miff people reeks of third-reich book-burning. If the verifiable facts in a certain article rub you the wrong way, you always have the option of not reading it. If we are going to pull back from reporting information about Justin Berry because Justin Berry does not like it being reported, are we going to hold back on reporting information on Jim Bakker because Jim Bakker does not like it? How about Bill Clinton? How about Scott Peterson?

Second, there apparently are restrictions on what can be contained in the article: whatever offends Justin cannot be included, no matter how factual that content is. That is why I posted about this debacle here. Corax 01:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Please provide an example of a factual statement that cannot be included in the article because it "offends Justin". Thanks! JesseW, the juggling janitor 01:54, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, just take a look at the history of the article. Pretty much everything but a small, two-sentence paragraph keeps being removed in spite of the fact that the content is taken directly from a New York Times article. Corax 01:56, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I've moved this to the talk page for two reasons: It falsely identifies Jimbo as a censor (see WP:OFFICE), and it is too long for an acceptable notice. Having said that, there is obviously a censorship problem on the page and I encourage advocates to attend the discussion of the new article. ॐ Metta Bubble 11:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

ALERT

Just thought I'd make you all aware of Misplaced Pages:Wikiethics which is in short a censorship proposal. Pegasus1138 ---- 03:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, the user who started the Wikiethics proposal was offended by the Mohammed cartoons, and upset that they could not be removed under standing wikipedia policy. I think that this is rather telling as to the intent of the new proposal; it seems likely one of the first uses of such a new policy would be to strike the cartoons as "offensive." Sensitivity should only be a concern in writing the encyclopedia when choosing among equivalently informative options. Preferences over information and sensitivity must be lexicographic. Tomyumgoong 20:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Rename?

Given the mfd on this project, would you perhaps consider a renaming of the project, perhaps renaming to WikiProject Freedom of information or some such variation, which delineates the goal better than the somewhat misleading title, which imples that people who are not members are supportive of censorship. Hiding talk 10:15, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The mfd appears to be more related to the heat on the Justin Berry article. From what I can garner, the mfd is entirely inappropriate and based on incorrect facts, and very few actual members of WAC are actually involved. So, I respect your suggestion but I don't think it should be based on any findings from the mfd.

But I think your request has merit anyway. Please remember we're talking about defending a policy wikipedia is not censored. If the policy changes it's wording to wikipedia is an exercise in freedom of information we could lose the word 'censorship', but we should follow the wording of the WP:NOT policy.

It seems you are more opposing the word against than anything. Perhaps wikipedians patrolling censorship is a better name for dealing with your concerns, or even the freedom from censorship project. Since you've implied that your stance on censorship is neither pro nor anti, I am open to changing the name so it embraces users of a variety of sliding scale opinions on how actively you would like to partake in censorship issues. Would you feel more welcome to participate if the name were changed? Do you think it would help the group avoid group mentality problems? ॐ Metta Bubble 11:13, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedians Patrolling Censorship is a better name than we have now, but it still sounds clunky... Keep those ideas comin? Copysan 00:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

My editing style is to follow WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, so I find myself already contributing whether you or I are aware of each other. I don't really wish to join a wikiproject merely to express myself as being against censorship, nor do I feel it should be neccessary to do so. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Freedom from censorship is certainly an alternative. Please note my concern is not based in the affair but rather the divisive quality of the name. I endorse the policy at WP:NOT but feel the policy should be at the heart of the issue, not the users battling it. The WikiProject term already denotes that it is a group of users who have gathered together, thus I do not see the need to restate it. Please note, I do not wish to cast aspersions on the goal itself. I would hope that you would look at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Fair use as an inspiration, they have not seen fit to declare themselves Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Wikipedians for fair use. Hiding talk 12:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)2

It's not a conspiracy Hiding. It's simply a group with a goal. If you think the wording can be improved you can make a suggestion without making a case that someone deliberately created a false dichotomy to incite a revolution. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble 13:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

At no point have I meant to declare that someone deliberately created a false dichotomy to incite a revolution. I find it hard to even read such an accusation in my words. I am merely offering my opinion that the current name is thought divisive, as per comments at the mfd, and offering a suggested alternative. Hiding talk 13:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Truly I mean no offense Hiding, but I notice you merely took 300 words to offer a 4 word name change?

• You say: "(the name of this group) implies that people who are not members are supportive of censorship."

This is saying that you think the name alone causes division on censorship issues. This is a false dichotomy.

• You say: "I endorse the policy at WP:NOT but feel the policy should be at the heart of the issue, not the users battling it."

This is saying that you think users come here to start battles.

Did you not expect someone would want to discuss your critical judgements against this group? I request you add Misplaced Pages:Assume_good_faith to the list of policies you like to follow. The WAC group was started in good faith. ॐ Metta Bubble 14:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Um. I'm not sure what's happening here. I came here and asked if the project would think about changing its name. Doesn't seem too unfair a proposition. You seemed to agree. After that, I'm not entirely sure how it went pear shaped. I'm quite happy for people to take my suggestion and do with it what they want, I recognise the consensual nature of the Misplaced Pages. I thought there was a reasonable suggestion with Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Freedom from censorship, perhaps people will consider that, fair play to you if you reject it, all I can do, and indeed, all I did, was to ask you to consider my suggestion. I can't see any point discussing your interpretation of my words, since I don't actually agree with that interpretation, and have already stated that any such interpretation was not meant, so I am happy to let my words rest as they are and be my own defence. As to your request to assume good faith, please be assured I follow it daily, but thanks for the gentle reminder. I hope you are not too offended if I ask you to consider your own words in the light of that policy. Happy editing! Hiding talk 16:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you didn't mean to lace your words with critical judgements of the group. Like I said, no offense intended. Happy editing to you to. ॐ Metta Bubble 23:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to propose wikipedians and censorship as a possible name to change to.--Clawed 02:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy and Sensitivities

Hello editors. Many users have this noticeboard on their watchlist. If you are unsure of the accuracy and neutrality of a statement, run it by another editor before you post it on the board. It very would be very easy to mercilessly delete an anti-censorship group if we were perceived as hostile towards well meaning wikipedians.

So, simple. Don't be hostile. It isn't necessary. Please respect peoples sensitivities. This is too serious an issue to be sensationalised. ॐ Metta Bubble 22:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Objection To The Justin Berry Notice

This was posted on the notice board. I've copied it here (which is more than it deserves):

• I still haven't seen any evidence that WP:OFFICE was ever invoked on the Justin Berry article by anyone authorized to exercise it, which according to the current draft of the policy, is one individual with the name "Danny." The Justin article was never listed on the WP:OFFICE page, and claims of WP:OFFICE by various admins seem to have been little more than a convenient pretense to blank everything added to the Justin article without any forthcoming explanation, and to ban anyone who complained. Since the rewritten article, which is currently being left alone, is a superset of properly sourced information which mere days ago, was being deleted on sight, it is pretty clear that several admins in this dispute greatly exceeded their authority. I'm not going to single them out by name, but given the egregious admin misconduct here, I think it would be a nice PR gesture to reverse all the blocks which stemmed from the Justin controversy. Jimbo merely blanked the article, and politely asked that it be rewritten by new authors. He didn't ask for an Inquisition to be held. Some people here have let their personal views about sex abuse, minors, and minor-attracted adults motivate them to use their admin privileges to attack others, and that has damaged Misplaced Pages's public reputation. Dismissing the resulting mess as an "edit war" is at best disingenuous. 66.109.195.60 07:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

And I only just got finished asking users not to be hostile. I apologise for any misunderstanding we might have. It's really as simple as 123:

1.) WP:OFFICE The Wikimedia Foundation receives an increasingly large number of phone calls and emails from people who are upset about various things on the site. Sometimes these complaints are valid; more often they are not. However, in most cases, even with the invalid complaints, there is a short-term action which can and should be taken as a courtesy in order to soothe feelings and build a better encyclopedia in the long run. WP:OFFICE reverting a WP:OFFICE may be grounds for blocking.

2.) Mr Berry called and complained. Jimbo reset the article.

3.) The end.

What followed was an issue of discrimination and ethics, not censorship. How much these two issues overlap is something to be discussed on talk pages, not on noticeboards. The article on Justin Berry is now rewritten and editors have expressed their happiness that the article is much better. There doesn't appear to be any remaining issues of censorship. If you want to start a discussion below please talk about the issues, finger point and say whatever you want. Just keep hysterical outbursts off the noticeboard, it's inappropriate. ॐ Metta Bubble 12:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

1. from WP:OFFICE..."I have created this page for Danny (Danny is a longtime Wikipedian who is an admin in English Misplaced Pages, and globally a steward. He works for the foundation, primarily as my assistant, but increasingly in working on grant applications) to use to signify why he is deleting or blanking something per my authorization. This does not signify any authoritarian top-down action without approval, but rather signifies a temporary action to allow us to be kind while we sort out the encyclopedic way forward.

"If this works out, I may authorize other people to use it as well (people handling OTRS email queues, people on the legal team, etc.)--Jimbo Wales 21:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)"

2. In the preceeding, Jimbo states that all WP:OFFICE blankings will be done by Danny, who will cite WP:OFFICE when doing them.

3. Jimbo is not Danny, nor did Jimbo cite WP:OFFICE when blanking the Justin article.

4. What followed included discrimination and ethical lapses, but was also censorship. The fact that we now have an article, and all new material is not being instantly deleted, has to do with admins backing off their earlier feeding frenzy, for whatever reason.

5. This is not an "hysterical outburst." If Jimbo wishes to state that the original blanking was done under WP:OFFICE and the admins acted appropriately in citing WP:OFFICE for their actions, (although they claimed reverting stuff on other related articles was WP:OFFICE, when it clearly was multiple reversion of non-vandalism), I will cede the point.

6. Undoing all Justin-related blocking would demonstrate good will on the part of Misplaced Pages, soothe the feelings of the angered, and encourage them to contribute to Misplaced Pages in the future, instead of spending their time trashing Misplaced Pages in their blogs, perhaps justifiably.

7. Good PR is avoiding even the appearance of censorship, even if you think you have some complex explanation of why something technically isn't censorship. 66.109.195.60 15:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Based on additional information I've obtained from an offsite mirror of the original Justin Berry article, I'm going to revise my comments above. It appears that Jimbo originally blanked the article with the comment "This page temporarily blank.' WP:OFFICE" in the edit history, but when he deleted the article and its revision history to create a new one, he erased his own WP:OFFICE notice. Never assume malice where stupidity will suffice, I guess. My comments about it being censorship, the admins deleting new stuff that was not taken from the blanked article, frivolous banning, and suggested remedies still apply. Overall, I would now characterize the episode as "poor communication." 66.109.195.60 18.46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Dismissing it as "poor communication" disingenuous at best!!! Hehe, just kidding! Yes, I agree. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble 01:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Where did you find this original copy of the article? Copysan 00:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

There's an interesting new Web Site about Misplaced Pages. They have the original Justin article, as well as other deleted things, and biting commentary. 71.212.67.10 06:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Censorship alert

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Jewish_American_criminals_and_victims

I believe it has encyclopedic value but it shows some Jews in a negative light so its being considered for deletion. Please offer some assistance.

Jerry Jones 22:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It looks like a standard VfD to me. I see nothing there that suggests an attempt at censorship. Gerard Foley 00:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Member list

I feel like what I'm saying is rather unimportant in comparison, but...I could, if people wanted, to reorganize the member list in alphabetical order. —Mirlen 02:06, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Major Censorship alert!

On the Talmud page posting anti Christian quotes which are verifiable factual information which is in fact in the Talmud have been continually removed. The article is extremely one sided. Both the Quran and Christian pages have all of the anti-Semetic quotes posted and I dont see why the Talmud should have another standard. Why should the Talmud be given special treatment? Please assist.

Jerry Jones 09:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it would be helpful it they weren't false quotes invented by anti-Semites. Jayjg 10:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

censorship of inconvenient facts

here's a fact: some members of the jewish community are world-class musicians, chess-players, physicists, mathematicians etc. i'd imagine this fact is well noted at wikipedia in category boxes etc. if it isn't, you'll encounter no problems in noting it. here's another fact: some members of the jewish community have been involved in fraud and financial and political scandal. for examples of the difficulty you will face in noting this fact, up to and including a threat of indefinite blocking, examine the history of e.g. David Garrard (property developer), Barry Townsley, Jewish Care, Conservative Friends of Israel. nothing that suggests any link between the jewish community and wrongdoing is permitted, and is quickly removed on often ludicrous grounds, e.g. marriage by a businessman into an important business family is trivia. jamaissur

It's odd to stick in the first paragraph of an article the name of the subject's father-in-law, unless of course you're an anti-Semite desperate to find a Jewish link to the subject because he's involved in a scandal, and flailing around are able to find only that the wife's father is a Jew, so bang, in that goes as practically the first sentence. If you discover that the subject's dog walked past a synagogue last week, that'll doubtless be your next edit. SlimVirgin 09:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually SV, I'm not sure why you chose to revert here. I presume you are doing so because you feel the comments had undue weight? Can you elaborate? It looks like the facts were cited correctly and were indeed true information for the article. ॐ Metta Bubble 03:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I will add though, the entire article looks a little slim. ॐ Metta Bubble 04:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

"A little slim"? If you have a look at User:Jamaissur's contributions (including the now deleted articles), you will note that they consist almost entirely of entries intended to tie alleged British Jews to scandal and Israel. After seeing this go on in two dozen articles, he has been informed that he needs to actually write proper articles about individuals, not just copy often unsourced boilerplate attempting to smear British Jews. I'm not going to continue going around turning his defamatory boilerplate crap articles into proper stubs. Until he starts doing so, his edits simply will not stick. Jayjg 00:22, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

They have not been 'often unsourced' and you censor sourced material anyway. The rule I'm breaking is 'Obey the orders of Jewish admins' -- who do not follow to follow the rules they apply to others. If I'd described your comments as 'bleating' or your edits as 'crap', this would have been another big ground for blocking me. jamaissur

Unfortunately, Metta Bubble, you won't get unevasive or accurate answers from Slimvirgin or Jayjg, if you get any at all. In reply to her comments: it is not odd to note that a businessman has married into an important business family. Nor was that the "only" fact about Barry Townsley censored by admin User:Jayjg. The Guardian doesn't care about his dog either, but she cut a fact about him taken from The Guardian (see Jewish Care). jamaissur

Back from a 48-hour block (after two 24-hr blocks).

The rule has been: censor all facts linking members of the Jewish community to wrongdoing and harass users attempting to include them. This happens because Jewish admins and their allies have very great influence and power here at Misplaced Pages -- another fact that cannot be acknowledged or discussed. Andrew Rosenfeld has been linked with a general charity, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, by the same admin, User:Jayjg, who has worked to censor 1) Rosenfeld's links with Jewish Care; 2) Barry Townsley's links with Jewish Care and with the Israel Center for Economic and Social Progress; 3) Townsley's marriage into an important Jewish business family. All 'trivia' according to Jayjg. Same for David Garrard (property developer)'s links with Jewish Care, World ORT and Conservative Friends of Israel. 'Trivia' again. Admin User:Slimvirgin and her friend admin User:Sean Black have censored facts in a way that no-one they disagreed with would have been allowed. So what I'd like to know is:

• Why doesn't Misplaced Pages acknowledge that truth and comprehensive encyclopedic content take second place to favoured special interests and that censorship has been and will be employed whenever a favoured group so decides? If this is a good thing, why not let everyone know?
• Why isn't the enormous power wielded by Jewish admins and their allies openly acknowledged by Misplaced Pages? Again, if it's a good thing, why not let everyone know?
• Even if it is a good thing, will it remain so? Power tends to corrupt, and unexamined power tends to corrupt faster. Would Jayjg, Slimvirgin et al be happy to see some other group have the power their team presently has? (Rhetorical question, obviously.)

jamaissur

Jamaissur, your agenda at Misplaced Pages has been to create articles on people you believe are British Jews involved in a particular political scandal. There were several non-Jews involved in the same scandal, but you notably haven't created articles about them. To have an article on a charity, Jewish care, consist almost entirely of the allegedly controversial activities (unrelated to the charity) of one of its donors is clearly absurd. As I've warned you, if this situation continues, you'll be blocked indefinitely. Finally, you don't know whether the admins who are watching you are Jewish or not. That they must be to want to remove your edits is another one of your anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. SlimVirgin 23:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion. That helped a lot. Jamaissur? Is it possible you could team up with somebody capable of writing the pro information about the relevant articles? I feel confident I would enjoy the articles a lot more if they were the product of a process like that. Overall, I find it hard to label this a censorship issue because it documents a current event. Yet, I don't have an opinion on the matter, except to say Misplaced Pages isn't a newspaper. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble 01:23, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

true, it isn't, but facts from newspapers are freely used here -- except when a favoured special interest group decides to censor them. i'd also have thought that censorship of facts in current events still counts as censorship, and is possibly an even more serious kind, given that more people will be coming here to read about the current event while it's current than later. note also that for raising the points above, i got blocked for a week. jamaissur

WP:NOT includes the policy that Misplaced Pages is not a news source; such readers as you mention should be using Wikinews instead. Trying to limit Misplaced Pages articles on current events to verifiable and NPOV facts, rather than everybody's unencyclopedic interpretations and speculations, is not censorship, it's a proper standard. Many editors are trying to keep any "special interest group" from including one-sided news content. Barno 14:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Precious gem to watch

User:Markaci/Nudity

When a square goes white it means the image has been deleted. CrayZ 01:10, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

To date only 4 images there have been deleted.

• Image:Coolness.jpg, by User:Humus sapiens, "obscene image"
• Image:PIX018.JPG.jpg, by User:Cryptic, "I4: no source since 08:20, 25 February 2006"
• Image:VisionsYoga.jpg, by User:Angr, "I3"
• Image:Carlsontwins.jpg, by User:BradPatrick, "Not acceptable fair use argument. Deleted."

The first and last seem to have been deleted improperly. I've contacted the users asking for more information. ~MDD4696 14:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Humus sapiens responded saying he was reverting vandalism; User:BradPatrick was removing blatant copyright infringement. Everything seems fine. ~MDD4696 20:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Has project gone inactive?

There have been no changes to the project page or this talk page in almost a month now. If nobody replies, I will mark this as inactive.--Frenchman113 on wheels! 00:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Strangely the member's page is active. -- 127.*.*.1 02:54, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

What? Wikipedians against censorship inactive? That would be a shame. Why do you think so? gala.martin (what?) 16:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

This project is definitely NOT inactive! --Siva1979 18:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I would give it longer than a month. Most projects on Misplaced Pages go through periods of inactivity. They usually aren't marked as inactive, though, unless they've been stagnant for several months. Kaldari 15:53, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The thing is that unlike content projects we don't usually go out and edit articles unless there's censorship going on. It's more of a "values" project, like Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Wikipedians for writing an encyclopedia. Loom91 06:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Critics being silenced

Please keep an eye out. Some people are trying hard to remove criticsim of wikipedia even if it could be constructive criticism. We should have freedom of speech here. User:Sceptre has a talk page full of "don't remove other peopl's comments" from other users and has been deleting pages he disagree with. Please keep an eye out. Navigatrix 12:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Sceptre's talk page has only two comments on removing talk page comments, both related to a single issue. User:Lou franklin (which I suspect was your original account, Navigatrix) was spamming people's talk pages with a frustrated rant. Sceptre reverted these. ~MDD4696 13:42, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi All

This User 87.17.136.171 has categorized as Humor the project page against censorship. I am wondering how this "fact" is considered in the English Misplaced Pages. --Fragolino - 17:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it is viewed with disdain and lo! It was quickly reverted. We have enemies as past events have indicated. ;) -- 127.*.*.1 00:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Please give a consensus and offer assistance -Censorship

I have worked on an article for Charles Coughlin and I have entered a dispute with an editor. I want the opinions of wikipedians against censorship on whether or not this is censorship. This editor refuses to discuss this and deletes this sentence continually without a reason which leads me to believe that he takes personal offense to it and that is why he wants it removed even if its informative and has great encyclopedic value.

Here is the article and the line in bold is disputed and being continually removed:

Why I think it should stay: I believe this line should stay because I feel the whole article just says that Father Coughlin is anti semetic. It doesnt say why he is anti semetic and there are major holes in the article. Its one sided. This one line explains a lot because one:

1-It's accurate. It makes a connection to fascism as the article goes over. 2-It explains why someone like Father Coughlin, as a priest, would support a Nazi regime 3-The article talks about Father Coughlin being fascist but doesnt explain why. This one sentence makes a big connection to Coughlin supporting fascism. 4-It's Father Coughlin's viewpoint and explains why he supported the Nazis.

I am just trying to make the article fair and balanced without it being one sided. The whole article joes goes on about him being anti semetic facist but it doesnt say even one time why he was anti Semetic. I tried to add Father Coughlins viewpoint and it was being continually deleted without even a reason. I won't even get an answer. Please read the whole article over and give you opinion on whether or not this is censorship or if I am wrong. Here is the article: Charles Coughlin

Thanks,

Jerry Jones 21:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

First, I should point out that I do not know much about Charles Coughlin. Secondly, you don't have to copy the entire article here. Finally, I'm not sure if this is censorship but reverting that sentence over POV is definately not right. However, the points over original research and verifiability still stand. If you can provide citations to back it up I think you have a case. -- 127.*.*.1 13:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

You need some references to state your sentence (this is true in general, and expecially if the issue is disputed). On the other hand, if true, the part Coughlin claimed that Marxist atheism in Europe was a Jewish plot should stay. Anyway, in Europe there were many people claiming Jewish plots, so I do not understand why referring to Goebbles; of course, this also can be cleared with a suitable reference. --gala.martin (what?) 13:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Help Request

Category:Anti-Semitic people

NEW VOTE

CFR may refer to:

Biology

• 23S rRNA (adenine2503-C2,C8)-dimethyltransferase, an enzyme
• 23S rRNA (adenine2503-C2)-methyltransferase, an enzyme

Organizations

• Căile Ferate Române, the Romanian state railway
• Canadian Finals Rodeo
• Centre for Foreign Relations, Tanzania
• CFR Cluj, Romanian football club
• CFFR, a Canadian radio station once branded as "66 CFR"
• Chess Federation of Russia, the governing body for chess in Russia
• Council on Foreign Relations, U.S. foreign policy think tank
• Franciscan Friars of the Renewal, a religious institute in the Catholic Church commonly abbreviated "C.F.R."

Places

• Caen – Carpiquet Airport in northern France

Protocols

• Charter of Fundamental Rights, a charter of political, social and economic rights for European Union (EU) citizens
• Code of Federal Regulations of the United States

Titles

• Certified first responder
• Commander of the Order of the Federal Republic, Nigerian order of merit

Other

• Case fatality rate, term for proportion of people dying of a disease
• Compact fusion reactor, a proposed nuclear fusion reactor project
• Coronary flow reserve, a diagnostic cardiac measurement
• Cost and Freight, word used in international commerce
• Cross-Functional Requirements, another name for non-functional requirements or the "ilities" in software systems requirements and design
• Chinese Folk Religion, the millennia-old indigenous beliefs and folklore of China that later morphed into Taoism, Confucianism, and Chinese Buddhism

Userbox vandalized

The Template:User freespeech userbox was vandalized, changing the box text and removing all references to this project. I have reverted the changes. Just a quick FYI. — Wwagner 16:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Userbox poll

A userbox poll is nearly done, and could do with a bit of support. It aims to stop Admins deleting userboxes and censoring people's opinions on their own userpages. - • The Giant Puffin • 12:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"It is important to monitor the fact that POV pushers (in this case pedophiles)..." - Jimmy Wales

See here: Skinnyweed 20:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Israeli apartheid deletion

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Israeli_apartheid_%28phrase%29

This term is apparently offensive to some people, but the article itself is well-researched and balanced. I think it needs a little tweaking in the lead, but is otherwise of high quality. Despite this, it seems as though a lot of people want to delete it for reasons that do not seem entirely reasonable to me. I feel that this is a form of censorship. Al 21:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

In case it's not already clear, you'll note that I'm not asking anyone to vote pro or con. Rather, I'm bringing this issue to the attention of a group dedicated to fighting censorship. In fact, I regret voting on this issue and would not recommend it to anyone. It seems clear that people are not voting on an honest basis, so any participation only lends legitimacy to this censorship attempt. Thank you for understanding. Al 23:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

When the scientists went mum (and still are going) on the issue of intelligent design in order to not lend legitmacy to the debate, they got a couple school districts changing it anyways. Shutting up about injustice simply allows a group to continue its oppression without publicity by your silenced comments. Therefore, if you've got a view, speak it up. Copysan 01:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Question

Would anyone like to investigate as to why User:Pimpalicious was banned, and whether it was discussed beforehand? 131.111.8.104 16:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

censorship alert- discussion

I strongly disagree with the accusation against my putting the alert on the notice board, I believe this is EXACTLY the appropriate place for this as this project is against ANY censorship in Misplaced Pages not just articles. For my full explanation you can refer to the discussion page on the issue.By the way, I find it ironic that Hipocrite as a member of Wikipedians against censorship tries to censor both my opinion and the very crucial vote thats been going on that is all about censorship, in addition I find it more than ironic that I'm accused of a "non-neutral" comment on the notice board by a user that himself expresses a clear "non-nuetral" comment in the sentence previous to his acustion of inuetrality (number 1). This irony also goes to the comment Hipocrite posted below. Tal :) 16:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

This project was designed to deal with article content, not your whinging about how you can't have pretty boxes and call yourself a satanist on your user page. Go somewhere else. I'm not a member - I'm a founding member. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

N.B the fact that you are allegedly the "founding member" gives you no special privileges over other members, and thus your historical role is insignifcant to my argument... And note that I'm not going anywhere unless you block me (which will be a very clear cut case of rude form of censorship).Tal :) 16:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Note that my very comment has been self-censored by me due to alleged "threats" by a certain member...Tal :) 16:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Calm down guys. It's not worth busting an artery about. Kaldari 21:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Hans Christian Andersen

I would like to enlist my fellow anti-censorship members to suppress the campaign by one member to remove the cited academic references to Hans Christian Andersen's sexuality. Her complaint is that her child read it. Misplaced Pages should not be a place where references are removed because they mention homosexuality or masturbation. I would post this to the notice board, but I'm not quite sure how to yet :) Thanks! Wjhonson 05:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up Wjhonson, I'm keeping an eye on it now although I doubt you'll have any more trouble from that particular user (Perri Rhoades) a quick glance through their other contributions and it looks like they've decided to part ways with wikipedia for other reasons. Caprosser 09:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Well I was wrong about Perri Rhoades going away, they are still at it unfortunately, I reverted their edit putting the material into its own section but I think its within reason to add the citations needed request and from what I gather that shouldn't be much of a problem for you to do so I'd recommend doing it quickly and hopefully everyone can move on. Caprosser 01:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Paulinus of Nola

Again an alert, an anon editor keeps reverting Paulinus of Nola when I've posted a portion of a letter he wrote, which was published in an anthology. The portion I've posted is the exact (translated) words of Paulinus. The other editor is reverting based on an POV. So I'd appreciate support in reverting back, as I'm at my 2revert limit now. Thanks. Wjhonson 16:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh and the other editor refuses, so far, to discuss the scholarly issues of the text (if there are any), he just reverts based on his opinion, not that of a published source. Wjhonson 16:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

"Wikiporn" deletions

I included information regarding the "wikiporn" deletions on the project page. CharonX/talk 12:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The MFDs seem to be against Userspace galleries. We should move all the User space links and etc to this WP Talk against censorship space (note that a gallery has already been created within this WP talk page at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Wikipedians against censorship/Gallery).
The reason can be: "Pornographic or sexually explicit pictures are often the subject of some controversy, and are often the targets of attempts to censor Misplaced Pages. This page is intended to make sure any pornographic picture has its due process in AfD. Any time a box goes blank or a red link goes red, interested parties should read on the AfD or the Speedy Delete page to see if the deletions were a part of censorship or just normal goings on in Misplaced Pages."
Also we should not include Commons pictures (since the scope of this project is Misplaced Pages). Fair use and otherwise article-only pictures should be linked. Copysan 18:18, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Inquisition censorship

I am seeing some religious censorship in Inquisition article. Some people are deleting any references to Inquisition practices, statistic death count, or persecution to any religion references (hindu, jew). I need help

I will look into this. Darthgriz98 19:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean, expecialy when they used the term coercion, there was no coercion involved, more like if you don't join you will be executed and persecuted if you were lucky enough. Probably someone defending the RCC or someone trying to butter up the article, it happens all the time. Nobody likes to hear mean things, except this is not what wiki is for. I'll help you out. Darthgriz98 19:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 14:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Misplaced Pages Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 19:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedians for censorship/decency

If I disagree with you policies, is there a project name Wikipedians for Censorship I could maybe join. I believe that the Misplaced Pages should be censored for minors and if you disagree with me, I would be more than happy to join the debate. Freedom to share 18:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC) Please leave comments on .

On Censorship

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. I ask all, how is the world to know what the world is really about if we sugar-coat it?

• Everyone will be offended at some point, seeing that these articles are printed in so many languages.
• If a picture is relevant, it deserves to be on that page! I don't care if it's ography, if it's relevant them put it on!
• We fight for facts, not just politically correct ideas, everyone.

--Raystlyn 04:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Username censorship

Does WP:RFCN constitute censorship? One username named "tortureiswrong" was almost prohibited. Wooyi 03:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

It constitutes a form of censorship, but it's also in part a security measure and doesn't really violate the speech of the actual encyclopedia. That said, I'd keep and eye on it for absurd nominations like "tortureiswrong" and respond accordingly. Gateman1997 04:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! I will also report here if any such absurd nom appear there. Wooyi 04:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Can we please not turn this into the "I disagree so opposing opinions are censorship" noticeboard? -Amarkov moo! 04:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is advocating that. However certain noms on that page could and do constitute censorship. ToutureisWrong appears to have been WP:POINT violation so it's a valid thing to bring here in my opinion. Gateman1997 04:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is an absurd nomination today Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User names/Pothead12345, but ended up in allow. Wooyi 16:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought the worst part of that nomination was someone mentioning the "12345" having no significance, as if that held any real weight in forcing someone to change their name or simply deleting them. It is a bit ridiculous. ≈ The Haunted Angel 23:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Censorship of information about Jewish businesspeople

I'd like to let everyone know that there is a massive censorship campaign underway dealing with information about Jewish businesspeople. Category:Jewish American businesspeople was the first to go, and then List of Jewish American businesspeople (take a look at the page's history). Now Category:Jewish businesspeople will soon be deleted. Note that these categories/articles are unjustly targeted for deletion despite the fact that dozens if not hundreds of very similar categories/articles currently exist on Misplaced Pages. --Wassermann 09:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't find that there ever was a Category:Jewish American businesspeople. As for List of Jewish American businesspeople, Wassermann may add as many names as he wishes to that list provided that they are all sourced. What he may not do is add inappropriate names and then complain when they are removed.--Runcorn 13:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

It was Category:Jewish-American businesspeople (I forgot the hyphen). It was deleted with less than 5 'votes' , overturned and relisted , and then deleted again . You also state that all names must be sourced, but have you taken a look at all of the other Lists of Jews and/or Lists of Jewish Americans lately? How many lists/articles do you notice are sourced amongst those pages? --Wassermann 22:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not excusing any deletion, nor do I know why they are doing it; however they may be deleting it bc they feel that the category is part of the racial stereotype of the "money-grubbing Jew". VanTucky 22:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

It is nothing to do with censorship, just a straightforward judgement about what categories are appropriate for navigation, based on community consensus. If you think that is censorship, you should spend some time living in a totalitarian state to learn what censorship really means. Sumahoy 01:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

This project is poisonous and should be deleted

This is just a place for gangs of people with certain fashionable prejudices that they like to imagine are high principles, to get together and try to use mob power to try to impose their values on the whole user base and readership. It has no legitimate purpose. It is not neutral, it does not improve information, it creates ill-will and encourages bullying and witch hunts. It forgets that Misplaced Pages is an encylopedia, not a means of self-expression. It should he killed off. Sumahoy 01:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

If you believe that the project should be deleted, then nominate it at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion. Thryduulf 08:53, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Although we clearly do improve information by ensuring that legitimate information isn't removed. ≈ The Haunted Angel 10:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Template:User against censorship

This template has been deleted. Please contribute to the Deletion Review discussion at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 June 19, so we can hopefully get it reinstated. Willy turner 22:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

If it's a userbox you're talking about, most of them have been moved to userspace per the Misplaced Pages:Userbox migration. There are a couple folks who have a copy of the WaC userbox: {{User:Disavian/Userboxes/Free Speech}} or {{User:Feureau/UserBox/freespeech}}. If it's a different userbox, feel free to recreate it in your own userspace. — Wwagner 22:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding WikiProject: Pedophilia Article Watch

I've been observing this WikiProject for a while now, and I'm little concerned about their activities regarding pedophilia-based articles. Their goal is to eliminate POV issues in pedophilia-based articles, as you can see by their page here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Pedophilia_Article_Watch

When this project had began, I expected them to work as much as on anti-pedophile POV issues as much as pro-pedophile issues, but if you check out their talk page as well as their members' comments on many of the pedophilia articles in this site, you'll notice that most of them concentrate solely on the pro-pedophile POV issues. Not to mention, some of its members deliberately attack people who may bring up a reasonable argument against them by calling them "Pro Pedophiles". Considering this, is it possible that this whole project could be used as an excuse to censoring potentially will-argued and sourced counter points in pedophilia articles? With this possibility in mind, I'd like WP:WAC to keep an eye on their activities. 71.63.3.227 18:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm a recent member of the project, and while I do not edit the central articles of the project's purview, I have had some small interaction with long-standing members. It should be noted that the project was created expressly as a counterpoint to the influence of the very real pro-pedophile lobby that was using Misplaced Pages articles about pedophilia and child sexuality as a soapbox to support their views. So it's not really as if there is this beleaguered minority of Misplaced Pages users who aren't personally pro-pedophilia but are advocating for more NPOV, but are being blocked by this evil anti-pedophile propaganda machine. It was created to combat bias already in articles, and in my experience, I have seen most of those involved with the project to have no more strong anti-pedophilia stance than does any member of the general public only a more ardent belief in protecting the sanctity of the Misplaced Pages's neutrality. It isn't exactly a COI to be vehemenently against pedophilia, just as it's not to be against anti-semitism and edit the Holocaust article. A strong moral stance against violence isn't to be equated with POV-pushing. VanTucky 19:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It was developed as a counterpoint to pro-pedophile lobbies? Forgive me if this is just my misinterpretation, but shouldn't the proper way of addressing POV issues be to just eliminate POV edits instead of just balancing/replacing it with opposite but equal POV edits? I don't care about its moral stance. I'm concerned about its potential to push its moral stance to where they use censorship tactics and turn Misplaced Pages as a political soapbox for their views, just like the pro-pedophile lobbies you mentioned. There needs to be a referee that has NO acutal stance on the issues. Two wrongs don't make a right. 71.63.3.227 21:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

You are misunderstanding what I meant. The project wasn't developed to insert counterpoint into articles, it was created as an ideological counterpoint to POV-pushing by pedophiles, i.e. as an organization expressly created to ensure a NPOV in articles of this subject matter. VanTucky 21:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

This may just be ignorance on my part, but if it's to ensure NPOV in articles regarding pedophilia, I'm not sure what you mean by "ideological counterpoint". 71.63.3.227 21:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm saying that the project wasn't created to push an anti-pedophilia POV, but that it was created solely to ensure NPOV by acting as a watchdog for articles that have notoriously been perverted (if you'll allow the pun) to advocate for a subtle, or not so subtle, pro-pedophilia point of view. VanTucky 21:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

If that's the case, to put me at ease, does the project have anything to prevent itself from being abused to push anti-pedophilia POV once they fixed pro-pedo POV issues? Some of its members, for example SqueakBox, have been edit warring in relevant articles (like lolicon) under the suspicion of other users, of pushing an anti-pedo POV. 71.63.3.227 21:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

There's no guarantee of any project, article or user being completely NPOV, that's just Misplaced Pages. I can't comment on Squeakbox's actions, but if you have concerns this is not the place to bring it up. You might try the Wikiquette notice board or the Admin's incident noticeboard. But just being realistic, a anon user going up against an long-time admin on that latter talk page will probably be shouted down. I suggest first creating an account (though not simply for the single purpose of attacking Sqeuakbox, that will get you blocked in a jiffy), and then trying to work out content disputes before going after what you may see as a pattern of behavior. VanTucky 22:15, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Rusty trombone

if you disagree with my idea that the issue at hand is one of censorship, then simply say so. Do not presume to think your sole opinion on an issue makes it unworthy of listing. If consensus shouts me down, that's acceptable. But unilateral dismissal is not. VanTucky 05:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Do we really need...

...that rather abrasive and incivil message about userboxes? Haven't most of them been moved to user's subpages and the problem (mostly) solved? 68.39.174.238 21:17, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

SVG blue ribbon

I replaced the PNG image with an SVG one, and made it 360 pixels wide. have a look and tell me if you have comments, or edit the page if you think it doesn't look good. NerdyNSK 03:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Pedophiles

What do the Wikipedians against censorship think about not allowing users to identify themselves as pedophiles on their user pages? A.Z. 06:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

It's an enormous can of worms and regardless of any principle involved I feel that the time is better spent elsewhere. Orpheus 07:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

It is beyond debate that allowing the statement "this user is a homosexual" but disallowing the statement "this user is a pedophile" is a violation of foundation:Non discrimination policy (The Wikimedia Foundation prohibits discrimination against current or prospective users and employees on the basis of (...) sexual orientation), but as Orpheus said, let's not open that can of worms again. Melsaran (talk) 13:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Did you check that link? It goes to a blank page. Orpheus 16:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Oops, fixed. Melsaran (talk) 09:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

There isn't a "non-discrimination policy" for Misplaced Pages contributors, even if there is one for Wikimedia foundation employees. There's WP:NPOV, which requires that relevant points of view be represented in articles. But there's also WP:POINT, which forbids deliberate disruption of the project, and WP:NOT, which forbids making Misplaced Pages into a battlefield or a MySpace page.

Part of the problem here is that "pedophile" is generally taken to mean one of two things:

• a person who does have sexual relations with children; that is, a child-molester, someone who does something both illegal and morally revolting to most people; or
• a person who feels powerful compulsions to have sexual relations with children; that is, someone who is psychologically abnormal in a way that leads them to do the above.

To understand the way that people respond to the former, consider what would happen if a person labeled themselves as a rapist or a murderer. To understand the latter, consider if they labeled themselves a psychopath or a kleptomaniac.

I understand that there are other interpretations of the term "pedophile". I know about Alcibiades, thank you, and I also know about the history of the gay-rights movement. (Mainstream gay-rights organizations in the post-Stonewall 1970s opposed age-of-consent laws.) However, it is also quite understandable that people react to a userbox that says "I'm a pedophile" in more or less the same way they'd react to "I'm a serial killer" or "I'm a slave trader".

As such, it's disruptive to the project for pedophile contributors to proclaim themselves as such, in a way that it is not disruptive for gay contributors to proclaim themselves as such. In civilized countries, including the U.S. where Misplaced Pages is hosted, gay sex is not illegal, nor is it considered by the medical establishment to be a psychological derangement; adult/child sex is. --FOo 03:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll echo Obfusco's points. Self-identifying pedophiles are blocked on sight for good reason. Allowing Misplaced Pages to get identified as an outlet for pedophiles would be immeasurably damaging to the project. Comparing homosexuality and pedophilia in this arena is not just incorrect, it's patently absurd. Homosexuality is something that is, in many instances, protected from discrimination by law. Pedophiles are those who are discriminated against under the law, and for good damn reason. VanTucky 03:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Pedophiles who do not engage actively in sex with children are not discriminated against under the law. Melsaran (talk) 09:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Pedophiles are not discriminated against under the law in civilized countries. A.Z. 05:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

That may be true, but I reiterate my statement above - regardless of the principle or merits of either side of this, there's better ways to spend the time instead of trying to reopen this discussion. (this comment is directed generally, rather than specifically at Melsaran, btw) Orpheus 09:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I do not agree with VanTucky, and s/he misstates my position in claiming to agree with me. I do not think it makes sense to block a Misplaced Pages contributor for self-identifying as a pedophile:

• It alienates that person from the project, making it nearly 100% certain that they will come back to cause us other problems in the future (disruption, vandalism).
• It increases their identification with a "pedophile" identity, and their belief that being such is some kind of persecuted victim status rather than what it is, a paraphilia.

Hell, I don't think someone should be blocked for self-identifying as a murderer. But it's a bad idea for people to do so, and it should probably be reverted if they do it. --FOo 05:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The sexual attraction of adults to children is not in itself considered a paraphilia -not even by the DSM. It is just a perfectly acceptable sexual attraction. The DSM considers that people who are older than 16 years old and try to have sex with children, or become disturbed due to this attraction to children, have a paraphilia. I don't know on what they base this opinion. A.Z. 20:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The short answer is that the goal of this wikiproject is to help correct situations where article content is censored. Userspace is entirely different, and not within the scope. WilyD 20:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but, as you can see above, there are people being discriminated against, which makes the scope of this WikiProject pretty much an irrelevant matter. A.Z. 01:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

It's entirely relevant. Whether or not there's any discrimination, this isn't WikiProject:Help! I'm being oppressed! Orpheus 03:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Your post didn't change my mind. A.Z. 03:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Roughly speaking, if you want help with the issue, this is not the place to request it. WilyD 15:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Any place should be a proper place to request that people help other people stop being discriminated against. A.Z. 23:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Censorship against (pro-) Hindu authors

I have observed a lot of censorship in articles on Hinduism and Indian politics/history. One thing which is very often done: Deleting the mention of atrocities or genocide during the Islamic invasions of India, and also in more recent history, for example the terrorism in Kashmir, or the massacres in the Bangladesh Liberation War. This is done wether it is sourced or not, and is rarely discussed on talkpages. Just put a couple of these articles on your watchlist (Aurangzeb, Muhammed bin Qasim, Terrorism in Kashmir,...) and watch.

As a an example, Hornplease (talk · contribs) has been for months deleting almost every mention of pro-Hindu authors or of authors critical of Islam on wikipedia articles. These are not some unknown, obscur authors, but they are the most well known political authors that the Hindus have. He is not only doing this against political authors, but also against historians like K.S. Lal.

He usually only explains his deletions on the talkpage if he is asked to do (and even in his edit summaries, he often does not explain himself). Even he himself says (when it is convenient for him) that "if you're making a claim that it's non-notable, you'd have to back that up with some reasoning or have it ignored". And if he has to explain his deletions, after being questioned, he sometimes uses bogus excuses, like the editors were paid by an Indian publishing house, or the links were added for the google engine. He actually admits that he is "monitoring" the use of the names of these Hindu authors on wikipedia: "Discussion can be suspended, and I will monitor the use of his name." If he says a citation by one of these authors, he usually just removes it without discussion (unless asked for it), and in that process diminishing the value of the wikipedia article because of the loss of information. He is not doing the same scrutinizing and singling out of authors with anti-Hindu authors, or with pro-Islamic authors (on the contrary).

On another article, Jewish editors have told him that he "can't take an entire community's resources and label them all biased" and that " if all the community resources do not meet that standard" one has "to simply accept the most well-known source as the best voice for the views, since that would be the best we could get" and they asked him: "are we going to accept that the job of an encyclopedia is to provide awareness and access to several different views contained in published works?"

Evidence

Some examples:

He deletes the fact that Taslima Nasrin's books were banned in West Bengal. In another edit, he deletes KS Lal's own rebuttal of the criticism against him, but he leaves all the criticism against KS Lal in the article. He also deletes KS Lal's books from other articles. He also makes edits that basically whitewash the record of the most intolerant Islamic rulers, like Muhammed bin Qasim and Aurangzeb.

• In the article about the historian K.S. Lal, he asks for a citation for this sentence: "The Mughal Harem has been reviewed by dozens of journals and has often earned praise." His edit summary is "wow".
  • When later a reference was provided, he just deletes it, with the edit summary "letters! please.", and nothing at all on the talkpage. The removal of text without any rational explanation is , plain and simple. Arbcom has said that edit summaries are not enough to explain controversial removals (and his "edit summary" didn't explain anything).
    • What this edit shows, is what he has done in many other articles: delete the mention that pro-Hindu authors are notable (even for the Hindus themselves), and afterwards claim that the same authors are not notable, or that they are fanatical, or nazis like David Irving, so that he can continue deleting every mention of them as a result.

These are some other examples where he has censored pro-Hindu authors:

Other Hindu or pro-Hindu authors

Whitewashing of the most intolerant Islamic rulers like Aurangzeb etc

Discussion

On the Censorship, I do not expect any answers. It is just too much, so it might be better if it is ignored. So I do not ask why. I only ask how: Misplaced Pages policy and the Arbcom say that removals must be explained, and for controversial deletions, this should be on the talkpage. There will always be Censorship and its supporters, but it should be done in an "ethical" honest way: it should be made clear on the talkpage of the article, stating a clear reason for the deletion.

The problem is also that the Hindus are either too lazy or cowardly, at least on wikipedia. Despite the bullying against Hindus by such editors, if the Hindus would make a minimal honest effort, the articles would be much better. As Andrew Bostom and others have observed, the average Hindu knows even less about history than Americans (!) .

I will not be taking the effort to revert all such deletions, which are also made by many other users, but I expect that they be at the very least explained on the talkpage. Librorum Prohibitorum (talk) 01:50, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

1. K.S. Lal. In "Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India" (1999) ISBN 81-86471-72-3
2. K.S. Lal. In "Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India" (1999) ISBN 81-86471-72-3
3. K.S. Lal. In "Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India" (1999) ISBN 81-86471-72-3
4. Ashoka and Pushyamitra, iconoclasts? by Koneraad Elst
5. Elst 1999; Cf. Sir Monier-Williams: A Sanskrit-English Dictionary, entry tvac, Reference is to Rgveda 1:92:5 and 4:51:9.
6. Ashoka and Pushyamitra, iconoclasts? by Koneraad Elst
7. Elst, Koenraad (1999). Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate. Aditya Prakashan. ISBN 81-86471-77-4.; Sergent, Bernard: Genèse de l'Inde, 1997.
8. Elst, Koenraad (1999). Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate. Aditya Prakashan. ISBN 81-86471-77-4.; Sergent, Bernard: Genèse de l'Inde, 1997.
9. Elst, Koenraad (1999). Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate. Aditya Prakashan. ISBN 81-86471-77-4.; Frawley, David: Gods, Sages and Kings, 1991. Lotus Press, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, p.224-225 and Frawley, David: Arise Arjuna, p.170-181
10. Elst, Koenraad. Learning from Mahatma Gandhi’s mistakes.
11. Elst, Koenraad. A Tale of Two Murders : Yitzhak Rabin and Mahatma Gandhi.
12. ^ Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my Graduate School Research, Yvette Rosser
13. Was Guru Golwalkar a Nazi? by Koenraad Elst
14. Was Guru Golwalkar a Nazi? by Koenraad Elst
17. Credentials of Yvette Rosser ,
18. Christian Post
20. Profile, Jyotirmaya Sharma
21. Hindu Nationalist Politics,J. Sharma Times of India
22. Cynthia Talbot. Inscribing the Other,Inscribing the Self:Hindu-Muslim Identities in Pre-Colonial India. Comparative Studies in Society and History, Vol.37,No.4 (Oct. 1995).
23. Cynthia Talbot. Inscribing the Other,Inscribing the Self:Hindu-Muslim Identities in Pre-Colonial India. Comparative Studies in Society and History, Vol.37,No.4 (Oct. 1995).
24. Was Veer Savarkar a Nazi?
25. Frawley, DavidHow I became a Hindu: My discovery of Vedic Dharma
26. ^ Goel, Sita Ram. Hindu Temples: What happened to Them: Islamic Evidence (Second Enlarged Edition). Volume II. Chapter 8: Summing Up. New Dehli: Voice of India.
27. Goel, Sita Ram. Hindu Temples: What happened to Them: Islamic Evidence (Second Enlarged Edition). Volume II.Chapter 6: The Epigraphic Evidence. New Dehli: Voice of India.
28. Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my Graduate School Research, Yvette Rosser
29. Taslima Nasrin Retrieved 29 May 2006.
30. Frawley, David. From the River of Heaven: Hindu and Vedic Knowledge for the Modern Age. Pg 27. Berkeley, California: Book Passage Press, 1990. ISBN 1878423010.
31. York, Michael.Pagan Theology: Paganism as a World Religion. Pg 166. New York: NYU Press, 2005. ISBN 0814797083.
32. ^ Human Rights Report from HAF
33. ^ Second Annual Report On Hindu Human Rights Released, Pacific Magazine
34. SAD-BJP Alliance helped bridge Hindu Sikh gap Indian Express
35. See refs in Kashmiri Pandit
36. see refs in Wandhama massacre
37. by Robert Jenkins
38. Let India develop FOI report supports IDRF activities; questions Sabrang/FOIL
39. Shah Bano Case
40. Pope stirs up India - Pope John Paul II calls for evangelization of Asia
41. Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my Graduate School Research, Yvette Rosser
42. eg. Partha Banergee, Romila Thapar, Himani Bannerji, Prabhat Patnaik
43. "The Fascism of Our Times" Social Scientist VOl 21 No.3-4, 1993, p.69
44. Christian Post
46. Profile, Jyotirmaya Sharma
47. Hindu Nationalist Politics,J. Sharma Times of India
48. Mill 1858
49. Macaulay, Thomas Babington, 1835:249, Minute on Indian education.
50. Trautmann 1997:117
51. http://www.jstor.org/view/00182745/ap020041/02a00040/6?
52. ^ Wink, pg.187-188
53. ^ Farishta, Chapter IX Cite error: The named reference "Farishta" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
54. F.B. Flood, "Between cult and culture: Bamiyan, Islamic iconoclasm, and the museum," The Art Bulletin 84 (2002), 650.
55. Richards, John F. (1995). The Mughal Empire. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 130, 177. ISBN 0-521-56603-7. Jujhar Singh's outright defiance of this order inflamed Shah Jahan. He sent another large army under the nominal command of the sixteen-year-old Prince Aurangzeb to invade Bundelkhand....When overtaken by Mughal troops, Jujhar Singh's principal queens were killed by their attendants, but the remaining royal women were sent to join the Mughal harem. Two very young sons and a grandson were converted to Islam. Another older son who refused to convert was killed outright.
56. ^ Mukhia, Harbans,"The Mughals of India" P25,Blackwell Publishing,2004,ISBN 0631185550
57. ^ Khan, Saqi Mustad (1986 (reprint)). "Maasir-i-' Alamgiri : a history of the emperor Aurangzib-'Alamgir, reign 1658-1707 A. D. / of Saqi Musta'ad Khan ; translated into English and annotated by Jadu-Nath Sarkar". Oriental books Reprint Corporation. ISBN 8170690013. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |year= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: year (link)
58. ^ Mehta, Jaswant Lal (1987). Advanced Study in the History of Medieval India P362. Stosius Inc/Advent Books Division; 2nd Rev edition. ISBN 8120705734.
59. ^ Cite error: The named reference Gier was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
60. Lewis (1984), pp. 14–15
61. Wink, pg.161
62. Keay, pg 186-187
63. From a translation of Ziauddin Barani's Fatawa—i Jahandari, circa, 1358—9 C.E., in Mohammad Habib. The political theory of the Delhi sultanate., Allahabad, Kitab Mahal, 1961, pp. 46—47.
64. Chachnama, Elliot and Dowson, pp. 173—174
65. Majumdar, The Classical Age, pp. 460
66. Majumdar, The Classical Age, pp. 461—462
67. Al—Baladhuri. The Origins of the Islamic State (Kitab Futuh Al—Buldan). Part II, Translated by F.C. Murgotten, New York, Columbia University, 1924, pp. 217—224; Al—Kufi. The Chachnama, excerpts translated in H.M. Elliot and J. Dowson. A History of India As Told By Its Own Historians—The Muhammadan Period, 1867—1877 (reprinted 2001, Delhi), Vol. 1, pp. 157—211
68. Al—Baladhuri. The Origins of the Islamic State, Part II, p. 218
69. R.C. Majumdar (editor). The History and Culture of the Indian People, Vol. 3, The Classical Age, Bombay, 1954, p. 458.
70. Majumdar, The Classical Age, pp. 458—459
71. Dayaram Gidumal the Introduction Chachnama,
72. Elliot & Dowson: History of India, vol.1, p.119, 120. Koenraad Elst: Who is a Hindu. 2001
73. Elliot & Dowson: History of India, vol.1, p.158
74. Nicholas F. Gier, FROM MONGOLS TO MUGHALS: RELIGIOUS VIOLENCE IN INDIA 9TH-18TH CENTURIES, Presented at the Pacific Northwest Regional Meeting American Academy of Religion, Gonzaga University, May, 2006
75. Elliot & Dowson: History of India, vol.1, p.158
76. Notes on the Religious, Moral, and Political State of India Before the Mohammedan Invasion:... By Faxian, Sykes (William Henry) pg.??
77. How to Prepare for the Sat II: World History By Marilynn Hitchens, Heidi Roupp, pg. ??
78. The Maha-Bodhi By Maha Bodhi Society, Calcutta (page 205)
79. The Maha-Bodhi By Maha Bodhi Society, Calcutta (page 8)
80. The Maha-Bodhi By Maha Bodhi Society, Calcutta (page 205)
81. Historia Religionum: Handbook for the History of Religions By C. J. Bleeker, G. Widengren page 381
82. Islam at War: A History By Mark W. Walton, George F. Nafziger, Laurent W. Mbanda (page 226)
83. The Ilkhanate
84. B.F. Manz, "Tīmūr Lang", in Encyclopaedia of Islam, Online Edition, 2006
85. The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, "Timur", 6th ed., Columbia University Press: "... Timur (timoor') or Tamerlane (tăm'urlān), c.1336–1405, Mongol conqueror, b. Kesh, near Samarkand. ...", (LINK)
86. "Timur", in Encyclopaedia Britannica: "... was a member of the Turkic Barlas clan of Mongols..."
87. "Baber", in Encyclopaedia Britannica: "... Baber first tried to recover Samarkand, the former capital of the empire founded by his Mongol ancestor Timur Lenk ..."
88. Sir Aurel Stein: Archaeological Explorer By Jeannette Mirsky
89. Ethnicity & Family Therapy edited by Nydia Garcia-Preto, Joe Giordano, Monica McGoldrick
90. War at the Top of the World: The Struggle for Afghanistan, Kashmir, and Tibet By Eric S. Margolis page 165
91. India By Sarina Singh
92. Cite error: The named reference maisels was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
93. ^ Cite error: The named reference Realtipu was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
94. Cite error: The named reference Elst was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
97. Abbe J.A. Dubois, and Henry King Beauchamp, Hindu Manners, Customs and Ceremonies, Clarendon Press, 1897, P96, Google Books link
98. First Indologists A Tribute to Hinduism
99. ^ Macaulay, Thomas Babington, 1835:242-243, Minute on Indian education.
100. Trautmann 1997:117
101. H.H. Wilson 1858 in James Mill 1858, The history of British India, Preface of the editor
102. Mill, James - 1858, 2:109, The history of British India
103. Suniti Kumar Ghosh (1984). "Marx on India online". Monthly Review. {{cite journal}}: External link in |title= (help)
104. ^ Biases in Hinduism Studies Pt6 by Abhijit Bagal
105. Mill 1858
106. Trautmann 1997:113
107. ^ Biases in Hinduism Studies Pt1 by Abhijit Bagal
108. Puzzling Dimensions and Theoretical Knots in my Graduate School Research by Yvette Claire Rosser, The Infinity Foundation
109. Dalit Voice, vol.25, No.1
110. Ayodhya and After, Koenraad Elst (Chpt 14)
111. Heuzé, Gérard (1993). Où va l’Inde moderne? (p 87). L’Harmattan.
112. Mill 1858
113. Trautmann 1997:113
114. Grant, Charles. (1796) Observations on the state of society among the Asiatic subjects of Great Britain, particularly with respect to morals; and on the means of improving it, written chiefly in the year 1792.
115. http://www.atributetohinduism.com/FirstIndologists.htm
116. Macaulay, Thomas Babington, 1835:242-243, Minute on Indian education.
117. Macaulay, Thomas Babington, 1835:249, Minute on Indian education.
118. Trautmann 1997:117
119. H.H. Wilson 1858 in James Mill 1858, The history of British India, Preface of the editor
120. Mill, James - 1858, 2:109, The history of British India.
121. Koenraad Elst. "Chapter 2, Negationism in India" (HTML). Negationism in India. Retrieved 2007-02-05.
122. Hours of Anti-India, Anti-Hindutva Rhetoric at “Indian” Muslim Meet, bu Yatindra Bhatnagar,International Opinion.
123. Politics By Other Means: An Analysis of Human Rights Watch Reports on India,saag.org