Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by A Kiwi (talk | contribs) at 22:46, 4 January 2008 (→Guiding you through Misplaced Pages's intricacies: a final thanks and farewell). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The "calm" tag

I just removed it for a while. I have a feeling it migfht have the same effect as that cognitive control exercise "DO NOT think of pink elephants" that leaves people unable to think of anything but...

Also, on a common sense level, I fear it may have the same as a road sign saying "if you want a rumble, you came to the right place". --Zeraeph 21:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

AS article status

Thanks for the accolade. I'm afraid that not everyone agrees, as can be seen from the FARC commentary. Eubulides 22:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Personal details

I am really uncomfortable with you discussing what you imagine to be personal details of my life in relation to and want to ask you to please stop doing it, and remind you that, in accorde with WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA we should stick to discussing content not personalities. --Zeraeph 21:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Nothing that I imagined, just what you had openly disclosed. But I acknowledge your discomfort and empathise with your discomfort, having, as you well knnow, experienced the reciprocal discomfort for many many years. It is not a comfortable experience at all, is it? You have my profound sympathies. Kiwi 01:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I am glad you understand and will not continue the behavior, thank you. --Zeraeph 02:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

What I would do in your position, would be to go back here and decide FOR YOURSELF, what you wish to say that is objective about why you feel the article should keep "Featured" status, put it all together in "notepad" then go here find the words "Strong Keep" and place the text after it. I can promise you that the relevance and objectivity of you argument will give it greater, not lesser weight, and the willingness to resolve issues amicably will only resound your credit. I do not want to be discussed personally as part of an FAR where I am not relevant, but I will defend with my life your right to expess your objective opinion there, whether or not I agree with it. --Zeraeph 23:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

A question for both of you at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review/Asperger syndrome; please respond there if you want me to propose a refactoring in sandbox, and please let me know what your refactoring goals would be. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

A Kiwi, regarding this reply, there's no need to apologize whatsoever; you've not created this problem, and I'm just trying to help you sort out your commentary on the FAR. I've never seen such an ugly FAR—well, not since the last AS FAR that is—and it's not your fault at all, but keeping the "messes" on the right pages may help. I'm sorry I wasn't more available as it was unfolding, but the work on Asperger syndrome is done, the article is better than it's ever been and well within FA criterion, and I was buried all afternoon in difficult and tedious referencing work on the next FAR ( Stuttering, an article in almost as bad shape as AS was, if you can believe it!) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey, after looking at all the "linked to" articles for that list of various terms, I was dismayed and almost frightened at what a dreadful inadequate total mess so much of Wiki must be when it comes to articles where professionals write them about their own area of expertise -- thus making them unintelligible, probably even to their own grad students!!! *laughing* Nah, I should take that back. In some cases, it is more likely that pompous grad students write them!!!

Hey, I just found out today that I have actually made over 1,000 edits now. Of course, what was not mentioned was that 30-50% of those were me correcting my own errors!! But it tickled me all the same. Kiwi 04:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Asperger syndrome ease-of-understanding

Thanks for providing the examples of hard-to-understand bits in Asperger syndrome. I fixed things as best I could and have a question or two, which I put in Talk:Asperger syndrome #Examples I found. Eubulides 10:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Please cool down

Kiwi, this is just a personal attack for which there is no place on Misplaced Pages , and you cannot just delete my comments because they do not agree with you like this . I made it clear that I would replace my counter arguments where appropriate, and I also made it clear that I, not you replaced the comment. Though you publicly said that you would replace it here and you certainly cannot keep trying to hide the fact that you DID suggest replacing it. Why don't you go and cool down? You made some excellent edits about accessible text yesterday and behaved impeccably about resolving the inappropriate personal comments, it is a shame to see you let that go now. --Zeraeph 19:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I am just fine. I was just justifiable angry that you would not only publicly bring up off-Wiki history (a no-no) and give it a completely false positive spin that never-ever existed.

My only error ever has been to repeatedly assume good faith with you when you start writing me so kindly. I seem to have that problem with people who write me multiple complimentary emails. You can be the most charming person I've ever encountered, Z.... And you assured me last night that you never took anything I said or did on the FARC page seriously and were certainly not bothered by any of it. But apparently you wrote up an incident report on me, they asked you to work it out with me privately.

By that time, of course, I had it all but done on my computer for I was rightfully embarrassed at my behavior. You wanted to post it yourself, I told you I would post it myself and that you would post your new revised response for yourself. But your need to point out that I was posting a revised version was something you could have asked me to do myself. You had no right to alter MY words, but only to say that your post was altered. I've been around Wiki long enough to know that, because I've heard you tell that to people.

If you felt it necessary or KNEW it to be necessary for the both of us to do so, then all you had to do was just ask/tell me that it was necessary for the both of us to note that an alteration had been done (in other than the edit notes). Kiwi 21:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not bring up any "off wiki history" AT ALL, at any stage, nor will I bring up alleged "off Wiki" dialogues. I do, however feel that under the circumstances of, not only the project in question, but also your behavior I have every reason and right to ask for advice from WP:AN/I. Because I certainly have no idea how to deal with your current, repeated WP:UNCIVIL, and WP:NPA behavior to me.

This is what I actually posted . Where in that do I mention "revised version"? And if I had, I would have every right to do so, it is, after all, only a statement of simple fact for clarity? You did, in fact suggest you would replace it yourself and I am rather afraid there are no grounds on which you may suppress that information in order to claim otherwise.

Please refrain from personal attacks in future. --Zeraeph 21:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Z, I only "encountered" you late late last spring or early summer here on Wiki when I found that you had brought an off-Wiki years-long battle here, even bringing off-Wiki reinforcements. But it was all over by then, the victory rejoicing done. Otherwise, I would never have recognized you or had the slightest idea who you were, save for the rejoicing.

So we only "encountered one another" a little over a year ago. To Sandy, you said we had known each other for years and never had any problems between us. So I beg to differ that -I- was the one to bring up off-Wiki thing, never mind totally mislead someone about the nature of those "years" that sounded so chummy all of a sudden. That you would be telling a falsehood like that was the out of line part and thus you were the first one to bring an "off-Wiki" issue up - even if it was a total misrepresentation of any conceivable reality.

Boy am I a gullible fool - just as my friend pointed out to me last night.

That is the last I have to say on this issue, so I will let you have the last word. Feel free to be as much yourself as you wish ... no matter which self it happens to be at the particular moment. Kiwi 22:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Kiwi, please try to stay a little closer to the (objective and relevant only please) facts in future...and further away from problems with WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA? --Zeraeph 23:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

PS I don't think it is appropriate (or productive) for me to keep "rising to the bait" and getting into these discussions with you, but on the other I don't think it would be very wise for me to let it go without refutation, as it is about me, not at all accurate and on fairly permanent record. So I have posted it here , where the process is informal and without sanctions, in the hope that some neutral third parties can assist us in sorting it all out --Zeraeph 00:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

WQA Posting

Hi there. I'm responding from WQA to notify you that a post was filed about you on our page. (See here). Please feel free to respond (we encourage people to keep responses civil and brief). Best, --Bfigura 02:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick followup. I realize that Zeraeph may have posted personal information on Misplaced Pages. And while I personally don't think that's really a great idea, neither is it terribly polite to dig through the archives in order to exhibit that information. From what I've seen it appears that the two of you have a fair amount of background, but I hope you both can come to an amiable solution, as you appear to be valuable contributors here. --Bfigura 03:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Fun's over now

User:Zeraeph Over and out --Zeraeph 03:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Torture

See Talk:Torture#2 specific large deletions from Torture article for my reply --Philip Baird Shearer 17:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Note

A Kiwi, I am concerned that you have indicated you are editing just after taking a valium. The evidence is progressing fine, and it isn't necessary for you to add a lot to it. You should be aware that if you post Z's name to Wiki, you can be blocked or banned. I don't know who e-mailed you, but I am strongly advising you not to post while you are upset or have taken a valium. There is no urgency. Take care of yourself and let Wiki deal with this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

A Kiwi, I hope you are able to read this. You must realize that even though an ArbCom is underway, you still cannot say things about Z that are based on off-Wiki events that could be construed as a personal attack. I hope you are well, A Kiwi; please don't post if you're upset or have taken medication. You must understand that Wiki can handle this, and you don't need to worry. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Dear Sandy, Thank you for the cautions of off-Wiki events - but none of them that I would have addressed would only have had to do with ONLY what she has already accused me of in similar off-wiki testimony. But I understand you completely. Two wrongs do not make a right. Thank you for helping me negotiate the intricacies of WP rules and guidelines. I wish there was a better index for me to find what I need to know. I can spend hours and still be totally lost without being any closer to an answer. Have a very good break and the best of 2008 for you. I will turn 60 and I already know it will be the bsst of all possible years of my life. May it be the same for you. Spotted Owl (talk) 08:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

A Kiwi, even if the things you said are 100% true in real life, they can be considered a personal attack on Wiki, and you could be blocked. If you want to remove the post you just made, pls click this link and click the undo button to remove the post. I'm sorry for what you've been through, but on Wiki, you must be careful not to say anything that can be considered a personal attack. You can reconsider what to post when you are calmer. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:18, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you're still reading. Your other post includes a name that should be changed to a Z. Can you find that? Posting a first name only is probably not an offense, but you would be wiser not to do it in this case, all things considered. Would you consider changing the name to a Z? I'll come back with a link in case you can't find it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is your other post. Be well, A Kiwi. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I will IMMEDIATELY remove it. Thanks for pointing it out to me. Spotted Owl (talk) 08:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

A Kiwi, I'm not an admin, but I suspect you trust my advice anyway. It might actually be better if you delete that post as well. You can e-mail any confidential evidence to ArbCom, and avoid risking your editing status on Wiki. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is ArbCom's e-mail: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Consider it done.... Spotted Owl (talk) 08:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

A Kiwi, don't overwhelm ArbCom with a lot of info, or it won't be read. Wiki policies are what matter. Canvassing other people against me or my edits or wiki articles would interest them. What kind of e-mail relationship the two of you have recently, as in 2007. The off-Wiki stuff isn't of much interest to them. Take care of yourself, and don't worry about this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

'

all done - will consider a rewrite TOMORROW when I am no longer feeling the distress that a public stage engenders in me. Mailed the deleted material and the email addy and your guidelines to myself. Spotted Owl (talk) 09:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I am going to sleep, finally; I do think you would be better to delete your entire other post as well, and reconsider another day. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I completely deleted that the first moment you mentioned it. I am calmer now and not scared for your being censured or blocked. I have deleted ALL the saved pages. In privacy, I can speak with calm ... but the public stage stressed me terribly. I will focus on what you told me could be helpful and useful. Spotted Owl (talk) 09:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Good. A Kiwi, really, don't worry. Nothing is going to be resolved tomorrow; ArbCom will take a bit of time. Again, take care of yourself, and don't let this get to you. There is probably already enough evidence, so you should not be stressed over this. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Guiding you through Misplaced Pages's intricacies

Hi, A Kiwi. As you probably seen, I am participating in the arbitration, though not an involved party. It has been suggested that you might need assistance preparing your evidence in such a way that it meets Wiki's policies and protocols. I am happy to assist you in this. Please feel free to email me (my email is enabled here) and we can prepare your statement and any evidence you wish to prepare off wiki, then when it meets with your approval and conforms with all policy and guidelines you can post it here. I look forward to assisting you. Jeffpw (talk) 09:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

A Kiwi, I trust Jeff to help you through this; please don't overwhelm his inbox or it might explode :-) Also, A Kiwi, don't worry about me being blocked. I've done nothing that could cause that, so there is no reason to worry. You could submit nothing and I'll still be fine. You do not have to stress over this. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

A Kiwi, now that others have stepped in to help you, I need to let you know something so you won't feel snubbed by me in the future. I do not ever want to be put in a position of discussing Z again, and I must refrain from further involvement. I helped out this time because I noticed no admin or cerk appeared to be online late last night, and I was concerned that you were posting while on medication. I hope you will understand that in the future I won't be discussing Z on Wiki anymore (as you know, I have never discussed her off Wiki). I hope you won't feel abandoned by my silence, and will understand that I must disengage from this issue, and I won't be posting to you about this situation again. Kind regards, and thank you for all you did to try to protect me, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Dearest Sandy, you set your boundaries immediately and precisely last year, so there is no chance of my feeling snubbed or hurt in any manner. You have a vital busy productive life, so busy that I felt surprised that you stepped in to engage me in any manner whatsoever this year. You have already gone far and beyond the call of duty. You have touchingly gratified me with all honour possible by demonstrating that you have become aware and strong. I thank you so much for your assistance last night. Farewell and best wishes to a fine upstanding woman of high morals and intense integrity - even while still able to remain fully human. My fullest respect forever. Teri Spotted Owl (talk) 22:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)