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3rd party material for use in Epirus and other

13-14th century Northwest Greece-Macedon district latest finds

Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."

E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62

Quote: "We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78

Quote: "When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98

Quote: "As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994

Quote: "Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks." Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece", Penguin Publ., 1996

EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland)

North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.

Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.

Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia. Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.

Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.

A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.

Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career.

The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.

His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell.

An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.

It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported.

Central Epirus never recovered; but northern Epirus prospered during the late republic, and Augustus celebrated his victory at Actium by founding a Roman colony at Nicopolis.

Under the empire a coastal road and a road through the interior were built from north to south, and Buthrotum was a Roman colony.

Ancient remains testify to the great prosperity of Epirus in Hellenistic times. N.G.L.Hammond, "Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.546,547

The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots." Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press, 1990.

Quote: The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia.... Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge University Press, 1997

Quote: Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus.

David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World", Oxford, 1995

Quote: Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect).

NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994

the Satyres by Juvenal

Quote: The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Acchilles.. Page 225

"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew

Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking; Quote: Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking Page 284

"The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume 6, the Fourth Century BC" by D M Lewis, Martin Ostwald, Simon Hornblower, John Boardman

Quote: however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization. Quote: In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland. Page 443

Quote: The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group. Page 423

A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography" by William Smith

Quote: Molossi (Μολοσσοί), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Μολοσσία) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself. In their new abodes they intermingled with the original inhabitants of the land and with the neighbouring illyrian tribes of which they were regarded by the other Greeks as half barbarians. They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.

That they  were related to the North-West Dialects (of Phocis, Locris, Aetolia, Acarnania and Epirus) was not perceived clearly by the ancients

History of the Language Sciences: I. Approaches to Gender II. Manifestations By Sylvain Auroux, page 439

Quote: the western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus, and parts of Pelagonia; "In the shadow of Olympus.." By Eugene Borza, page 74

Quote: Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, was himself simply a military adventurer. He was none the less a soldier of fortune that he traced back his pedigree to Aeacus and Achilles Quote: He has been compared to Alexander of Macedonia; and certainly the idea of founding a Hellenic empire of the west--which would have had as its core Epirus, Magna Graecia, and Sicily, would have commanded both the Italian seas, and would have reduced Rome and Carthage to the rank of barbarian peoples bordering on the Hellenistic state-system,like the Celts and the Indians--was analogous in greatness and boldness to the idea which led the Macedonian king over the Hellespont.

Quote: he was the first Greek that met the Romans in battle. With him began those direct relations between Rome and Hellas, on which the whole subsequent development of ancient, and an essential part of modern, civilization are based. Quote: this struggle between Rome and Hellenism was first fought out in the battles between Pyrrhus and the Roman generals; Quote: But while the Greeks were beaten in the battlefield as well as in the senate-hall, their superiority was none the less decided on every other field of rivalry than that of politics; and these very struggles already betokened that the victory of Rome over the Hellenes would be different from her victories over Gauls and Phoenicians, and that the charm of Aphrodite only begins to work when the lance is broken and the helmet and shield are laid aside. Theodor Mommsen History of Rome, From the Abolition of the Monarchy in Rome to the Union of Italy, The Historical Position Of Pyrrhus

Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was NOWHERE suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;

Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking. "The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew ,page 284.

Quote: The Epirotes, who may fairly be considered as Greeks by blood, long maintained a rugged independence under native chiefs, who were little more than leaders in war. A Manual of Greek Antiquities Book by Percy Gardner, Frank Byron Jevons; Charles Scribner's Sons, 1895, page 8Megistias (talk) 21:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

On Albanian claims regarding illyria,pelasgians and others

Here are some quotes from famous Albanian historians;

Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):

When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today's Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Kor?a (Korcha), (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.

Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):

After him followed the Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Lubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others." Quote: About the Albanians, Wilkes writes "NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."

Wilkes was proven CORRECT by science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European lineage. Quote: That's the way it is with our culture, which is mythomaniac, national-communist, romantic, self-glorifying. You can't say anything objective without people getting angry. The Albanians are a people who still dream. That is what they are like in their conversations, their literature...In light of Hoxha and 'pyramid schemes, Albanians are a people who still dream. That's just the way they are..." Fatos Lubojia - Albanian historian Quote: Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi writes: I can say that today appear a group of new Albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths (About Illyrian & Epirote descent) and courageously accept the scientific truth that they are not whatsoever connected to these ancient peoples. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage."

Quote: Ardian Vebiu Famous Albanian historian writes:

My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism. Megistias (talk) 21:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

You are merely offering pseudoscience again and simply rejecting anciens and modern scientists that dont fit current dogma of Pelasgian-Albanians and the rest of Ancient Greek history.Preseverence is not evidence nor will it ever become one.Also Illyrians came to the area from haalstat at 1000-1300 bc and found the Greeks who were already there since 2000 bc at least.Pelasgians are in a way early Aegean cultures and have nothing to do with Illyrians who came millenia later.Science moves on and so should you.Megistias (talk) 11:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Mr Aigest.I dont care about dna or racial theories.I my self have arvanite ancestors but i dont adopt irrational albanian/arvanite(kollias) theories that were born from italian fascists continued by the communist regime and supported even now from the current political forces in albania.It has a negative impact on albanians anyway and makes albanians seem backward.Megistias (talk) 19:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

COnstructed illyrian names in Albania

The articles on albania and illyrians related history should all mention that names were constructed and added. They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.

On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today

ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated

From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.

Illyrian issues

Albanians and Illyrians = No.Slavs and Vlachs=YEs

"The Illyrians, like the Celts and Thracians, dissolved in the sea of latter conquerors, simply for the reason that during the long period of Roman rule they had lost their native culture and were unable to utilize their language to a political life of their own...We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnena's (Alexiad 4)."

John Wilkes, "The Illyrians", Blackwell Publishers, Cambridge, 1992

John Wilkes: "The Illyrians", Oxford Press, 1996:

(1) "..A separate group of Illyrians identified by renowned historian Geza Alfoldy: he identifies 'Pannonian peoples' in Bosnia, northern Montenegro and western Serbia ". p.75

(2) "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to identify an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to moderAlbanians." p.219

(3) "...a documented description of Illyrians, Pannonian family: - Pannonians are tall and strong, always ready for a fight and to face dangerous but slow-witted." p.219

(4) "Life has always been hard in the Illyrian lands and countless wars of resistance against invadors are testimony to the durability of their populations." p.220

(5) "In sum, the destructive impact on the earlier generalizations regarding Illyrians should be regarded as a step forward." p.40

Modern countries on Illyrian soil

The following modern countries are on illyrian soil so they take part in the illyrian "heritage".They must be included in all Illyrian projects and since Wilkes points out that among Slavs and the Vlach population of the Areas true illyrian ancestors are found they must be posted and Quoted.This Albanian exclusiveness is arbitrary and irrelevant as most of illyria is part of other countries and other peoples have such ancestors.

ALBANIA (about half of albania) MONTENEGRO SERBIA CROATIA BOSNIA & HERSEGOVINA SLOVENIA HUNGARY

Pelasgians

Pelasgians Herodotus, The Histories (ed. A. D. Godley) LVI. When he heard these verses, Croesus was pleased with them above all, for he thought that a mule would never be king of the Medes instead of a man, and therefore that he and his posterity would never lose his empire. Then he sought very carefully to discover who the mightiest of the Greeks were, whom he should make his friends. He found by inquiry that the chief peoples were the Lacedaemonians among those of Doric, and the Athenians among those of Ionic stock. These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second a Hellenic people. The Pelasgian race has never yet left its home; the Hellenic has wandered often and far. For in the days of king Deucalion1 it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian.2

I see in the above Greeks and no Illyrians or Albanians.Megistias (talk) 12:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC) Also see;Dionysus of Halikarnassos "Roman Antiquities" 1.17.2.1 καὶ τὸ τῶν Πελασγῶν γένος Ἑλληνικὸν ἐκ Πελοποννήσου translation: for the Pelasgians, too, were a Hellenic race originally from the Peloponnesus.No illyrians or Albanians againMegistias (talk) 12:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Adding images to pages

Northern of Lake Ohrid around Black Drin river - Dassaretae tribe; around Black Drin - Penestae, near them Pirustae where Abri are now. Rush hour in the map? In modern norh and central Albania - Albanoi. Melcumani mand Deramistae were not in the north. They were near next to the north from Docleatae. Autariates were actually west from Dardani and northern from the group (Melcumani, Deramistae, Docleatae,...). Exchange places of Maezaei and Narensii. Liburni would be better a little bit left and bigger font. Colapiani were between Iapodes and Iasi; northern from Breuci there shoud be Amantini. Since Iasi, Colapiani, Breuci, Oseriates and Amantini were Panonians, maybe it woud be better to put Panonians in the brackets with bigger font above these Panonian tribes. Zenanarh (talk) 11:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Dexaroi i have found to be Greek according to secondary sources.Also the location of lots of tribes are different in secondary sources.I get on the changed soon after checking both views.Megistias (talk) 11:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm interested which tribes got different locations in secondary sources? Zenanarh (talk) 12:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I need a good new blank map to remake the whole thing with better aesthetics and fix any remaining issues.Hammond seems to mention lots at the south but thats from the text probably or movements.Megistias (talk) 15:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That racist person...

...I've took the liberty of watching your page. If he comes back again, I'll deal with him personally. —BoL @ 05:19, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank thee greatlyMegistias (talk) 14:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey

Hey, do you have any good maps of Macedonia under Amyntas III? 3rdAlcove (talk) 16:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I ll work on oneMegistias (talk) 23:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It was Bardyllis,Baraliris that drove him out i thought but the dates don't muchDionysius attacks.See the talk page on Bardyllis as well.Since it seems it wasn't Bardyllis the leader of the attack is not known.I ll id into itMegistias (talk) 23:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It is assumed that it may have been Bardyllis.If this is the case my assumption and map is right but not specialised in the event against Amyntas but in the general Dionysius war.The thessalians aided Amyntas to regain the Kingdom in the next year but it was the Spartans that expelled the Illyrians from Greece.Megistias (talk) 00:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

MACEDONS NOT HELLENISED BUT GREEKS FROM THE START

Stella Myller-Collet "Greek culture dominant in Macedonia prior to 7th ca"

On February 11th 1993, Stella Myller-Collet (Ph.D-Bryn Mawr), visited the Pennsylvania State University, invited by the Central Pennsylvania Society of the Archaeological Institute of America.

Her topic was: "Tombs and Treasures: New Discoveries in Macedonia". The president of the Society Dr.Eugene Borza introduced the speaker to the audience praising the 20-years-contribution of "the acknowledged authority on Macedonian tombs."

Stella Myller-Collet has also participated in the excavations carried in Corinth, Athens, Nemea, Troy, Grasshopper Arizona, etc. Her University appointments include: the Stanford University, the University of California at Berkeley, the American School of Classical studies in Athens, the University of Cincinnati.

The new archaeological findings from Macedonia, according to this archaeologist prove once again something that Stella Myller-Collet always maintains: "Archaeology is the Laboratory of History".

The most recent evidence that she and her colleagues brought to light show very clearly that certain Athenian sources were either wrong or simply trying to present the Macedonians as a backward people - merely for political propaganda.

The life in Macedonia does not seem to justify the well-known derogatory Athenian characterizations. Thus, these 4th-century testimonies originating in Athens,the rival of Macedonia, should be discounted a great deal (particularly the descriptions of the culture and people in ancient Macedonia made by the orator Demosthenes).

These resent archaeological findings indicate that there is an unbroken continuation of the Mycenaean tradition in Pieria, Imathia and Bottiaia, with mild influences from the south (Greece Proper and islands) and the east (Ionia and probably Thrace). The latter could also be faciliated by the Greek colonies of Chalkidiki (after the 8th century B.C.E.) or the available Macedonian ports on the Thermaic golf (and Dr.Borza indicated Thermai). All this is clearly much earlier than the reigns of Alexander I or Archelaos I

These two kings, according to a theory and tradition, attempted "to Hellenize their kingdom". The archaeological evidence though clearly disprove this theory, according to the speaker. The Hellenic culture did not need to be introduced in there, for it was already dominant in the ancient kingdom certainly before the 7th ce B.C.E.

The discussion continued with even more photographs and a report from the excavations in the sites of Sindos and Dion, which brought us down to the Hellenistic and Roman era.

by Andronikos Romanos, 1993Megistias (talk) 11:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Πηγές

Μπορείς να χρησιμοποιείς το Template:Cite book όταν βάζεις πηγές; Δείχνουν πολύ καλύτερα έτσι. Αν δε βαριέσαι, κάντο στα άρθρα Chaonians, Thesprotians, Molossians μια και γνωρίζεις (προφανώς) όλα τα στοιχεία (έτη, εκδότες κτλ). Ως έχουν, δεν δείχνουν και τόσο ωραία. 3rdAlcove (talk) 02:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok i will read this and try to see how it works.Megistias (talk) 04:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Τα άλλαξα εγώ. Αν θες, δες πως τα έχω φτιάξει. 3rdAlcove (talk) 20:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Primary sources on Epirus Hellenicity

Sources on the Epirotes

"Zeus Archon, Dodonean, Pelasgian, who dwells afar, ruling on rough wintered Dodona, surrounded by the Selloi, the interpreters of your divine will, whose feet are unwashed and sleep on the ground".

Homer, Iliad 16:127 (Achilles prayer)

XI. "War was at the same time proclaimed against the Tarentines (who are still a people at the extremity of Italy), because they had offered violence to some Roman ambassadors. These people asked aid against the Romans of Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, who derived his origin from the family of Achilles...

XIII. "...Thus the ambassador of Pyrrhus returned; and, when Pyrrhus asked him "what kind of a place he had found Rome to be," Cineas replied, that "he had seen a country of kings, for that all there were such, as Pyrrhus alone was thought to be in Epirus and the rest of Greece."

Eutropius (Abridgment of Roman History) Historiae Romanae Breviarium

"Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"

"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."

Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer

“Peleus is the forefather of the kings of Epiros”

Pausanias, II (Corinth).

Peleus being the son of King Aeacus (the dynasty's name) and the father of Achilles.

“but we know of no Greek before Pyrros who fought against Rome.”

Pausanias, 1.11

“So Pyrros was the first to cross over against Rome from mainland Greece, and even so he went over only because he was called in by Tarentum”

Pausanias, 1.12

Being apprized of Alcmaeon's untimely end and courted by Zeus, Callirrhoe requested that the sons she had by Alcmaeon might be full grown in order to avenge their father's murder. And being suddenly full-grown, the sons went forth to right their father's wrong. Now Pronous and Agenor, the sons of Phegeus, carrying the necklace and robe to Delphi to dedicate them, turned in at the house of Agapenor at the same time as Amphoterus and Acarnan, the sons of Alcmaeon; and the sons of Alcmaeon killed their father's murderers, and going to Psophis and entering the palace they slew both Phegeus and his wife. They were pursued as far as Tegea, but saved by the intervention of the Tegeans and some Argives, and the Psophidians took to flight.

Having acquainted their mother with these things, they went to Delphi and dedicated the necklace and robe according to the injunction of Achelous. Then they journeyed to Epirus, collected settlers, and colonized Acarnania.

Apollodorus, 3.76-3.77.

Acarnania was Greek and settlers from Epirus helped colonize it...

After remaining in Tenedos two days at the advice of Thetis, Neoptolemus set out for the country of the Molossians by land with Helenus, and on the way Phoenix died, and Neoptolemus buried him; and having vanquished the Molossians in battle he reigned as king and begat Molossus on Andromache. And Helenus founded a city in Molossia and inhabited it, and Neoptolemus gave him his mother Deidamia to wife. And when Peleus was expelled from Phthia by the sons of Acastus and died, Neoptolemus succeeded to his father's kingdom."

Apollodorus, 6.12

"Alexander, the Epirote, when waging war against the Illyrians, first placed a force in ambush, and then dressed up some of his own men in Illyrian garb, ordering them to lay waste his own, that is to say, Epirote territory. When the Illyrians saw that this was being done, they themselves began to pillage right and left — the more confidently since they thought that those who led the way were scouts. But when they had been designedly brought by the latter into a disadvantageous position, they were routed and killed."

Frontinus, Strategemata, On Ambushes, 10

"When Harrybas, king of the Molossians, was attacked in war by Bardylis, the Illyrian, who commanded a considerably larger army, he dispatched the non-combatant portion of his subjects to the neighbouring district of Aetolia, and spread the report that he was yielding up his towns and possessions to the Aetolians. He himself, with those who could bear arms, placed ambuscades here and there on the mountains and in other inaccessible places. The Illyrians, fearful lest the possessions of the Molossians should be seized by the Aetolians, began to race along in disorder, in their eagerness for plunder. As soon as they became scattered, Harrybas, emerging from his concealment and taking them unawares, routed them and put them to flight."

Frontinus, Strategemata, 13

Seems clear that the Epirotes were NOT Illyrians...

"It was for this reason that Pyrrhus was defeated by the Romans also in a battle to the finish. For it was no mean or untrained army that he had, but the mightiest of those then in existence among the Greeks and one that had fought a great many wars; nor was it a small body of men that was then arrayed under him, but even three times as large as his adversary's, nor was its general any chance leader, but rather the man whom all admit to have been the greatest of all the generals who flourish at that same period;"

Dionysius of Halicarnnasus, Roman Antiquities, 19.11

"Theopompus says, that there are fourteen Epirotic nations. Of these, the most celebrated are the Chaones and Molotti, because the whole of Epirus was at one time subject, first to Chaones, afterwards to Molotti. Their power was greatly strengthened by the family of their kings being descended from the Æacidæ, and because the ancient and famous oracle of Dodona was in their country. Chaones, Thesproti, and next after these Cassopæi, (who are Thesproti,) occupy the coast, a fertile tract reaching from the Ceraunian mountains to the Ambracian Gulf."

"The Molotti also were Epirotæ, and were subjects of Pyrrhus Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, and of his descendants, who were Thessalians. The rest were governed by native princes. Some tribes were continually endeavouring to obtain the mastery over the others, but all were finally subdued by the Macedonians, except a few situated above the Ionian Gulf."

Strabo, 7.7.1

"Pyrrhus, the king of Epirus, had a particularly high opinion of his powers because he was deemed by foreign nations a match for the Romans; and he believed that it would be opportune to assist the fugitives who had taken refuge with him, especially as they were Greeks, and at the same time so forestall the Romans with some plausible excuse before he should suffer injury at their hands. For so careful was he about his good reputation that though he had long had his eye on Sicily and had been considering how he could overthrow the power of the Romans, he shrank from taking the initiative in hostilities against them, when no wrong had been done him."

Cassius Dio, Book 9.420:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Page protection, etc

Hey, I saw your note on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. I saw some of the crap people were putting on your user page. It's completely inappropriate and I hope you understand that the Misplaced Pages community does not tolerate that kind of stuff. I have protected your user page from edits by new or unregistered user for now. The talk page is a bit trickier- we sort of need to leave those open, in general, because it's useful for editors to collaborate with each other. It can be protected if you really want it to, but probably not for very long. For now, maybe the user page is sufficient? Anyway, I have this on my watch list now (and, hopefully, so do many others) so hopefully if there's any harassment here, it can be dealt with appropriately. Friday (talk) 16:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Thankou ,you are right about my talk page.Leave it open.Megistias (talk) 16:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

My Maps-note to admins

Note to admins.Just like Thomas Lessman Thomas Lessman-World History Site.Thomas has maps on Wiki and he puts them in his site too.I do the same and i have photobucket and flickr accounts and other sites.I research,make them,put them in wiki and than in other places.For example This is meMegistiasOlviosMegistias (talk) 00:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Edwin E. Jacques

Another editor has added the "{{prod}}" template to the article Edwin E. Jacques, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the editor doesn't believe it satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the article (see also Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not and Misplaced Pages:Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages or discuss the relevant issues at its talk page. If you remove the {{prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. BJBot (talk) 21:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia

You already know very well about this arbitration case, so I'm bypassing a formal warning. I'm leaving you this note to inform that you are placed on supervised editing: you may be banned by any administrator for good cause from any article, talk page, or topic which you disrupt by editing in violation of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines.

And please try to stay away from Taulant. I've blocked him for 72 hours but you aren't exactly helping the situation here. Moreschi 14:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)