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Current issues

A brief note to let you know I'm signing off WP

Not that you should be sorry to lose me. The administrator Tyrenius (talk) 05:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC) welcomed me here only about a month ago. If you look at the new notice on my user page, you'll probably feel I'm too angry, too unfair, and didn't give WP enough chance. Perhaps so. Very briefly, my reasons are:

• I feel that Wikipedians are too involved with process (guidelines, policies) items that are good in themselves -- but easily become restrictive and a goal in themselves. People game the system, and use legalism for their own agenda. Meanwhile, I know what you think a "good article" is, but I find it hard to visualize writing what I'd think is "good." Simply put, there's too much tunnel vision - in the name of ideas that were originally good.
• I'm deeply offended and hurt by WP's continued refusal to allow LGBT users a category, such as "gay wikipedians," so those who wish to can identify ourselves. Our oppression in the larger society is caused by the fact that we're pressured to hide -- and then people can pretend we're just a fringe group that makes no contribution to society. WP expects to continue the same policy, to rip off what we can give but not let us identify our otherwise maligned group, even only to other editors.

I would point out that the user Avruchtalk happened to be the immediate cause of my anger spilling over in both of these areas. Last evening, he unilaterally, illogically moved my discussion contributions to an area where they wouldn't be seem. And then he topped that off by informing me that he'd been the one who nominated Category:Gayass Wikipedians for deletion -- and, with the discussion still open, it was a done deal that I'd better learn to accept. His actions are not by any means the only ones leading to my decision to leave -- but they are beautifully symbolic of the issues.

Good bye.William P. Coleman (talk) 19:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• I object to the implicit insult in Coleman's many 'sign-off' posts (each one is the last one). I am not anti-homosexual, homophobic, bigoted, biased against gay people, whatever else you'd like to throw at me to see what sticks. I merely cleaned up an AfD, where the consensus after the fact is that it was unproblematic to do so. (This is the Adult-chid sex AfD). Coincidentally, Coleman also is apparently a recent member of the "Gayass Wikipedian" category, which I nominated at UCfD and which is headed for deletion. I attempted to leave explanatory notes on Coleman's user talk, but apparently to no effect. Its unfortunate that a new editor was unable to find a role for himself in this community; it seems as if he is unable to embrace the essence of NPOV. Some people find it impossible to check their personal opinions at the door. If Coleman finds at some point in the future that perhaps he can accomplish this task, then I hope he returns. 23:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'd also like to express some disappointment that it appears no one has refuted his implication of bias in my actions on this page or any of the others (so far as I know, I haven't checked them all). 23:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a hell of a lot of homophobia on Misplaced Pages, and a profound unwillingness from admins-in-general (there are of course some honourable exceptions) to root it out. I can readily understand why an editor should become so disillusioned as to need to leave. DuncanHill (talk) 19:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Sexual orientation is irrelevant here. This is an encyclopedia, not a singles bar. HalfShadow (talk) 19:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with "singles bars". Building an encyclopædia of this nature requires that all editors are able to edit honestly and openly - something which is prevented by the attitudes and actions of certain users. DuncanHill (talk) 19:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I do hope that you're referring to something more than a few categories being deleted. – Steel 19:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I hope that comment wasn't meant to sound as snidey as it did.DuncanHill (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact that User:HalfShadow assumed that a category identifying gay Wikipedians would purely be used as a dating service, probably sums up the original poster's point more succinctly that anything else could. BLACKKITE 20:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact that the topic creator seems to think the fact that he's gay matters in any way, shape, or form says quite a lot as well. He is what he is: does he need a badge for it? HalfShadow (talk) 20:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec)With all due respect to William P. Coleman and DuncanHill, the fact that these categories cause so much upset and dispute is the reason we delete them. There is nothing stopping people expressing their sexuality on Misplaced Pages (I'm heterosexual, if anyone cares) but there is no need for a category. Deleting these categories is not intended to be homophobia- we would also delete a category for heterosexual Wikipedians. We delete them because they do not aid us in building the encyclopedia, and, if anything, they slow us down through the disputes they cause. J Milburn (talk) 20:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed about the categories; I was merely commenting on the assumption made by HalfShadow. BLACKKITE 20:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, it was you I edit conflicted with, I intended my reply to come after DuncanHill's comment at 19:47. J Milburn (talk) 20:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I've been here since 2004. I've been repeatedly attacked by vandals because I've openly declared that I'm gay. But never once has anyone who cared about the encyclopedia - even people I've got into huge editing disputes with, even people I've picked fights with, even people with strong conservative or religious views - ever even mentioned sexuality. We don't here. In fact, people lose arguments, badly and permanently, if they try to play any form of sex, sexuality, race, religion, etc, card. We don't do it. This place is amazing for that. And it works both ways: I've defended people under attack from vandals or for their editing style even when they've got userboxen calling for my basic rights to be curtailed; I've had barnstars from people who declare that homosexuality is wrong, and have given barnstars to such people. They are, of course, entitled to their worthless views ;o) There is a community here, and people who act outside that community sooner rather than later end up exiting it. And the community has decided, a long time ago, that everyone has a right to challenge any element of community structure - templates, user pages, categories - and each case is taken on its merits. The community decides if we need specific groups to be identified and in what way. So, William P. Coleman, please stay. HalfShadow, please don't make sweeping judgements. Avruch, if you're about, feel free to deny Mr Coleman's point and we'll believe you. But battling over the subject of what editors do when they're not editing is something we try not to do. We are here only to build an encyclopaedia, after all. ➔ REDVEЯS is standing in the dark 20:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

A category is not just "identifying yourself", it's maintaining a list, and the decision was made that there's no good reason to have such a list. —Random832 20:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I have seen editors personally attacked and accused of being pædophiles because they opposed deletion of a category for homophobes - and admins took no action against the attacker for this. This does not inspire confidence in the ability or willingness of admins to act against homophobia. I would add that the community can be wrong - and I say it is wrong when it says that Wikipedians by ethnicity or by religion are acceptable user categories, yet Wikipedians by sexuality aren't, and I believe that it is displaying homophobia whenever it restates this position. DuncanHill (talk) 20:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict): I am looking at this from the periphery ... part of the problem is that there have been perennial disputes about whether Article space and User space or Wikpedia space should intersect in meaningful ways. The Userbox wars were in part about the intersection between Template and User spaces. Likewise there has been a lowerkey (as far as I've seen) UserCat war that is similarly about the intersection between Category and User spaces. One thing I've seen over and over again is people putting forth one mechanistic solution - like using a category - and not seeking alternative mechanisms; oftentimes mechanism changes can, in fact, defuse conflicts of this sort. So here is my suggestion - use a subpage of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject LGBT as a point of recognition for sexual orientation with the legitimate argument that persons belonging to a community have a valuable perspective on that community which has a positive impact on the encyclopedia. Placing this under the rubrick of the LGBT WP provides 'ownership' for the resource, which might allay some of the concerns of persons who are against (for whatever reason) sharing this type of information. As far as the argument that such a list should not exist at all, a great deal of latitude is provided to WikiProjects with regard to the creation of resources that are felt to advance the encyclopedia-building activities of the group of similarly inclined editors around which a WikiProject forms. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 20:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I take my usual position here - that categories that appear to be irrelevant to the purpose of writing the encyclopedia are valuable for community-building and building support circles, which provide incentive and motivation for many encyclopedia-related activities. People who interact are bound to collaborate, and any structure promoting this is a good thing. Dcoetzee 22:22, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That is rather the point of a wikiproject, is it not? Putting me in a category that says I am a fan of the Calgary Flames does not serve to enhance collaboration. My membership in WP:HOCKEY, however, does. More to the point, my being a nominally Christian Canadian does not automatically mean I am particularly interested in editing topics related to Christianity or Canada. So no, putting me in such categories does not enhance collaboration at all. Same is true of virtually every user category. There are better mechanisms in place to enhance collaboration. Resolute 23:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Need for user pages?

Does user pages help Misplaced Pages at all? Is it just a concession to myspace? My user page is only 5 characters more than the minimum. It says hello. No user boxes. No fancy graphics. I can see the value of talk pages, but user pages? We'd save bandwidth and controversy. If there is an explanation why user pages are useful, I am open minded. Spevw (talk) 01:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

My userpage here is not as sparse as yours, but for an example of highly useful userpages, see mine at enwikibooks. My toolbox provides insane convinence, and the number of "why did you delete that?" and "what does {{nld}} mean?" threads on my talk page have dropped to almost nothing due to the header, which also appears collapsed at the top of my talk page. – Mike.lifeguard |  02:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

A user page is a desktop from which to work on the encyclopedia. Sometimes there are bobble head dolls or a stand-up "I love (insert state here)!" cardboard cutout vying for space alongside an in-box and a pile of partially written reports, and that is what you will see when walking down the corridor past open cubicles on the way to your next meeting in most office settings. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 04:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Perfect metaphor. I completely agree. нмŵוτнτ 06:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well my Misplaced Pages user page predates MySpace, so they've been around for a long time. Their intent is to help build community, to provide a clue about the personality of its owner. (Mine is utalitarian but somewhat raggedy-looking because I'd rather spend my time getting content into Misplaced Pages than making it look nice. Or else because I'm lazy. Take your pick.) I wish more people would take a moment & put someting on their user pages -- not userboxen, or fancy graphics or images. Just something about oneself, one's interests, one's background as far as it's relevant to Misplaced Pages. Then if I need to talk to them, I have a sense of how to present myself to them. -- llywrch (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Visibility

A Gay Wikipedians category establishes visibility. It's easy to allow the inertia of systemic bias to remain when the issue is relatively low on the radar. However, such a category helps support WP's goals of harmonious collaboration by giving those who identify as "Gayass Wikipedians" (and I'm one of them) the same kind of respect as say, oh I don't know, "Christian Wikipedians". Seriously, can you imagine the furor if WP editors tried to WP:Censor Christians from self-identifying? Please. No really, let's go back and reread this whole thread replacing "gay" with "Christian", or "Jewish", or "Muslim". If a gay usercat is verboten, then all usercats should be. I'll be blunt, this seems an awful lot like bigotry.

Visibility of self-identified gay or queer editors makes for a more welcoming editing environment. Categories also allow new editors to find a community - and yes, technically, a list on a project talk page is good, but again, not that visible or accessible. It can take new users a while to get into the backdrop of WP, and sometimes a while is all it takes for new users to feel like they lack a voice, become disenchanted, and leave. Besides, I find all sorts of neat stuff (relevant and useful to WP) on other users' talk pages, pages I find in user categories. As to Resolute's point about being a Christian/Canadian, it doesn't hold water, as usercats are chosen by the user. If usercats are not relevant to an editor's interests, s/he is under no obligation to use them. Phyesalis (talk) 14:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Either we allow all such good faith categories, or we delete them all. I would favor deleting them all, including Category:Christian Wikipedians, Category:Jewish Wikipedians and Category:Muslim Wikipedians because they are divisive, and Misplaced Pages is not a social networking site. It's not about us the editors. If editors want to group together, they can form a WikiProject. Jehochman 14:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I find this discussion interesting in light of: Wikipedians by education, Wikipedians by ethnicity and nationality, Wikipedians by hardware, Wikipedians by interest, Wikipedians by language, Wikipedians by location, Wikipedians by philosophy, Wikipedians by profession, Wikipedians by religion, Wikipedians by skill, Wikipedians by software

I would like the above editors supportive of deleting sexuality as a cat, come out boldly in favor of, and actually submit dels on all these user cats. Is location relevant, is religion relevant, is skill or software or hardware relevant? Thanks I look forward to seeing massive amounts of cat deletions. Whoo Hooo. Have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 15:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Deletion nomination withdrawn

• I had the mistaken belief that deleting these categories was sort of routine, and nominated based on the recent deletion of very similar categories. Apparently, the act of nominating the category for deletion is far more disruptive and divisive than the category itself. I would have no issue if it were renamed to something that had previously been deleted, because it seems like there is no firm consensus on the topic of user categories. I didn't cherry pick the Gayass Wikipedians category intentionally... Since I had the LGBT project talk page watchlisted, I just happen to notice when it was created as sort of a joke. Clearly this has generated significant ill-will in the community, which was not at all my intent. I have withdrawn the nomination of the category for deletion. 15:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to thank Avruch for withdrawing the nomination, I think this shews a real commitment to listening to the community and acting in the best interests of Misplaced Pages. DuncanHill (talk) 16:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Complaint withdrawn

Since I left Misplaced Pages, Avruch has made obviously sincere attempts to explain that he did not intend prejudice, and he's made several gestures of reconciliation, of which withdrawing the deletion nomination was only one. There may have been mutual misunderstanding, but it's more important that there clearly was no malice, as there was none on my part either. I accept his explanations, I thank him for his gestures, I bear him no ill will, and I apologize for whatever degree I was the cause of our misunderstanding.

My frustration with Misplaced Pages has therefore cooled down to just below the boiling point and I am returning.

I would like to very sincerely thank several kind people who spoke decently about gays during the discussion. William P. Coleman (talk) 18:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you're back to stay. Hope to collaborate with you on future projects, нмŵוτнτ 18:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Would either William or Avruch please expand a little on the "several gestures of reconciliation" mentioned above? I have been looking around at this issue, and am willing to accept that Avruch did not anticipate his action would be controversial, but I am still concerned about much of what I have read. That there is homophobia on WP is hard to deny - one only needs to glance up at User:HalfShadow's comment above for an illustration. And yet, Avruch's response has been a defence of himself coupled with comments like "Its unfortunate that a new editor was unable to find a role for himself in this community; it seems as if he is unable to embrace the essence of NPOV. Some people find it impossible to check their personal opinions at the door." Rather than recognising that homophobia is objectionable (whatever the intent of his actions), Avruch appears to suggest that double standards and bias are something that anyone identifying as Queer simply needs to accept - which is rougly why William left in the first place. I agree that the withdrawal of the nomination was a positive step, but am concerned that the motivation was to remove controversy over a "disruptive and divisive" category (as Avruch put it), rather than in recognition that there is a genuine issue of bias here. I am also puzzled that Avruch has made few edits in the LGBT area (as he notes on the project talk page), but had it watchlisted. Now, of course, he has the right to watch (or edit) any WP page, and it is not my intention to attack here. I just don't want to go away from this discussion without trying to understand what gestures William has seen, and I would much prefer to be able to move on feeling as comfortable about Avruch as William apparently is now. Jay*Jay (talk) 01:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Sometimes its better to let an issue settle on its own, but apparently that is not to be in this case. My comments regarding Coleman were made when I was pretty upset at the imputation of homophobic or anti-gay motives to my nomination and other actions. My comments were intemperate, but I submit that I was pretty upset at the time. I would echo what I said on his talkpage and here: that it would be unfortunate if Coleman were to be unable to find a role for himself here that he finds acceptable. I'm not sure that active advocacy is an easy role to fill, as it finds somewhat less sympathy than perhaps it deserves in a community focused on public content. At no point did I argue that "Double standards and bias" are something that anyone should accept. I have the LGBT project talk page watchlisted because I asked a question on it about whether Matt Sanchez (Matt Sanchez) should be considered as within the LGBT-scope. I don't think he identifies as LGBT, so I wasn't sure if former gay pornographic performers would be considered LGBT.

• Avruch, I agree that sometimes leaving well alone is the best approach, and I did consider not saying anything - but then decided that that would be unfair to you, as it would mean my (and possibly others) leaving with an impression that may not be warranted. I wanted to understand, and to give you the chance to respond.
• I understand why you were upset, and recognise that we all act on emotion at times. Indeed, my actions here may well be equally criticised on such a basis. I recall an incident years ago where I was accused of making a homophobic remark, and I still regret that I have never had the chance to apologise for the offence that I caused - even though it arose from a misinterpretation of my comment. My anger at the accusation prevented my seeing how my comment could be seen from his perspective until later, and I've never had the chance to address his (likely still) negative impression. I am impressed with your actions in seeking your roommate's opinion, which has left you able to do something to address the situation. William has accepted your explanation (which is great for both of you), but I guess this serves to illustrate that he was not the only one aggrieved. I would encourage you to look at this as an opportunity for reflection on the potential for misinterpretation in written communication when emotions are raised. For example, I saw your comment that he should "check his opinions at the door" as a reference to opinions like homophobia is never acceptable, especially in light of the homophobic comments made elsewhere in this discussion and your description of the category in question as "diisruptive and divisive" - hence my "double standards and bias" comment. Hopefully, this is not what you meant, and on reflection I see that you may have been in fact referring back to the importance of NPOV.
• As regards inclusion of the page Matt Sanchez in the LGBT project, I now recall that question being raised, and that makes your watchlisting completely understandable. On that point, I think it should be so included, although I agree that he does not identify as LGBT. The content of the page clearly does have relevance to the LGBT project. FYI, whatever Matt Sanchez's self-identification may be, there are a lot of people in the LGBT community who would view him as a gay or bi based on his actions no matter what he states publicly - and many would also suggest he has internalised homophobia issues. Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of the various positions on Matt, I can't see any reason to not include his page as part of the LGBT project. Jay*Jay (talk) 03:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• As far as withdrawing the nomination - the disruptive and divisive nature of the debate, coupled with the clear fact that consensus on the larger issue has not been achieved, was wholly my reason for withdrawing the nom. At first I was surprised that it was viewed as an attack on WP LGBT editors, but after it blew up a bit I discussed it with my roommate (who is quite emphatically lesbian) and found that from her perspective it was quite a reasonable response. I didn't withdraw it as an attempt to counteract systemic bias, per se, and I counted it unnecessary to argue from my decidedly inexpert opinion over the presence and effect of such bias. It is clear that the issue of categories and userboxes (and etc. other usage of userspace) is something that has to be decided as a single question of purpose. It is exceedingly difficult to resolve the problem case by case, because each separate nomination is seen as an attack on a particular person or group of people - whether it was intended to be or not. I regret that it happened in this case, and you can be sure that I will exercise far more care in any future user category or userbox deletion nominations. 02:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• I agree that the issue is best dealt with at a meta-level with a discussion of all user categories. In retrospect, it might have been much better to use the need for a global discussion and conclusion, rather than a case-by-case approach, as the rationale for the closure here . I certainly was concerned that your use of "controversial and divisive" to describe the category reflected an underlying anti-queer perspective, which is partly why I am now here. FWIW, Avruch, I now think that the context surrounding all of this had led me to an inaccurate perception of you, and so engaging in this dialog has been worthwhile (at least from my perspective). Best, Jay*Jay (talk) 03:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Update

When I posted the above, I was under a misimpression. The last time I'd seen the Gayass Wikipedians category, Avruchtalk had withdrawn his deletion nomination and closed the discussion. I was about to go back to the LGBT group and suggest that we rename the category to "LGBT" or "Queer" or something less inflammatory and much more inclusive to the whole LGBT community. Now I find that someone else reopened it and reclosed it and the category has now been deleted. Furthermore, Misplaced Pages is so legalistic that I just spend an hour trying to figure out what happened so I could complain in a rational way. So far, I haven't been able to do that.

For Misplaced Pages at this stage in the discussion to turn around and make a point of denying the LGBT a category (to be suitably renamed) is an unbelievably blatant insult and an outrage.

My question now is how -- without becoming a Wikilawyer and spending my whole life on the legalities -- could I and the rest or the GLBT community secure a category with a reasonable name of our own choosing, and then know that it would stay that way for at least a while?

I still appreciate Avruchtalk's efforts at reconciliation, and I still appreciate those others who've tried to help, but my astonishment with Misplaced Pages in general is boundless. William P. Coleman (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. There is a DRV for "Queer Wikipedians" that has a good chance of succeeding. 20:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The DRV can be found at Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2008_January_21#Category:Queer_Wikipedians. DuncanHill (talk) 01:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Escalating blocks versus swift indefinite blocks

One of the things that I find troubling about the current culture of admins and blocking, is the propensity to indefinite block too swiftly. There are some cases where indefinite blocking is definitely required, but there are other cases involving contentious articles and groups of articles, or an editor who is disrupting content but can contribute something, rather than just behaving badly, where I think a different approach would work better. Have a look at this from one of the arbitration pages:

"Editors who are disruptive, including but not limited to edit warring, making uncivil remarks and personal attacks, and filing vexatious complaints, may be banned from the affected pages and/or placed on one revert-per-week limitation, at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. Editors who violate page bans or revert limitations may be blocked for up to one week per violation, with the maximum block increasing to one year after the fifth violation."

This may look like excessive bureaucracy, but I think it is a better system than trying to have community discussions on contentious bans. It would be simple to ask the uninvolved admins to record this in the logs, but my main point is that this is a far better way to handle things than the current "indefinite ban if enough admins don't have the patience to give you another chance". It doesn't have to be exactly like that proposal above, but is there any chance that those admins wanting to have indefinite blocking as the second or third option in their armoury would consider using escalating blocks instead? Carcharoth (talk) 16:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that we probably jump to indef too quickly in many cases, but I don't think slowly escalating blocks are the answer. If someone gets warned and/or blocked for something, we assume good faith that they weren't familiar with our rules. They do it a second time and get blocked, we might still assume good faith, they do it again and I think most people would stop assuming good faith. On a collaborative project, users who constantly piss off other people are a major impediment to a decent work environment. If someone doesn't learn after a couple incidents that things like POV-pushing and incivility are wrong, I see no reason to delay the almost-inevitable and let good users suffer as a result. A topic ban might help some cases, but not always. A topic ban for an SPA is pretty much the same as a regular ban, except it needs people policing the user as we have no technical method to enforce a topic ban. Mr.Z-man 19:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

As bears repeating, indefinite does not mean infinite. If the User wants to come back, all they need to do is to explain on their Talk page or in an email to an admin, that they realize that their previous behavior is wrong, and vow to change their modus operandi. Corvus cornix_talk 23:10, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem with that is that indefinite blocks invariably drive people away rather than promoting reform. People grow up, mature and change, and there is no reason why someone 2-3 years later should be forced to start a new account, or grovel to get their old account unblocked, because of previous indiscretions. Maybe the terminology needs to change? People (especially new users) do interpret indefinite as permanent (and a months-long block is not set in stone either - people can appeal for that to be shortened). Nice as the ideal is, simply saying "fill in this form saying what you did wrong and say you will be nice and we will unblock" is not a good way to get genuine reform happening, and it sets admins up as judges of past behaviour. The alternative of "I've unblocked you, be nice or you will be reblocked" is in some ways better, and shouldn't be denied because some people prefer the other method. Requiring people, on their first or second offence, to write a lengthy essay explaining how they are now a model Wikipedian, is unrealistic. Improvement and reform can only come with experience, and no-one gets that while they are blocked. Carcharoth (talk) 11:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Slowly escalating blocks implies that the block is being used as a punishment. "This is the third time you broke the rules, your punishment is now a 1 month block". Blocks are NOT PUNISHMENT. While arbcom rulings or community sanctions carry the weight of punishments, and can be enforced by blocks, blocks in and of themselves should not be handled this way, IMHO. If the blocking admin believes that the user needs to be stopped immediately, but can be "talked down" from problematic edits and can be counseled, then anything more than a day or two is just vindictive punishment. If the blocking admin believes that the user shows no signs of ever becoming a productive user, and expects disruption to continue as soon as the block is lifted, then why not make it indefinite; we shouldn't lift a block when we truly believe doing so will cause a disruption. Short blocks get attention and stop ongoing disruption. Indefinite blocks prevent problematic users from continuing to edit. The middle range stuff makes no sense, unless it is something agreed upon as an ArbCom sanction or otherwise, it just makes no sense given the blocking policy. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

So why do arbcom limit themselves to one year blocks and propose escalating blocks? The point is that there are cases where the user is (or appears to be) reformed and has productive edits in the past. There are banned users who do appear to have changed and matured, and the system is heavily weighted against them ever getting another chance. Carcharoth (talk) 11:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Because ArbCom does hand down punishments, and it is within their jurisdiction to decide the appropriate length of their punishment. Admins don't punish. We use the blocking tool to prevent vandalism and disruption. Either the user being blocked is expected to change or they are not; the mid-range blocks (like 2 weeks) take neither of those positions into account. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure ArbCom are punishing and not preventing? No blocks should be punishing anyone. By your logic, someone banned for a year should be banned permanently or not at all. I think the real reason for ArbCom not applying indefinite blocks is because they recognise the potential for miscarriages of justice, and recognise that people can change (but now I'm just speculating). The point here is that excessive indefinite blocking will eventually disrupt the encyclopedia by causing the number of new contributors to dwindle - it is a question of getting the balance right. By the way, how does what you said apply to community bans and the "if no admin will unblock, a user is de facto considered community banned" (even in the absence of discussion) bit? Carcharoth (talk) 17:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

To be honest I was issuing short blocks to "vandalism accounts" at first (you know, AGF), but all (or almost all) the accounts that came back after the block continued to vandalize. An other issue is that these accounts are then autoconfirmed and can start having fun with page move. -- lucasbfr 10:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not talking about vandalism accounts here, but do be aware of the need to distinguish experimentation and vandalism. Carcharoth (talk) 11:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Nvm I was away for a few days and I didn't understand the background story behind this thread until now. -- lucasbfr 14:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Admins clearly know the difference between a new user fooling around with test edits and someone repeatedly adding "This guy is teh gay" to a biographical article. I fully trust my brother and sister admins to use blocks appropriately in each case, and to know the difference. Misplaced Pages does not suffer fools long, but we do have a lot of patience for newbies. If you have a specific concern about how a specific block was handled, perhaps it would be a good idea to include difs. Before the most recent post, it was hard to tell, as it seemed Carcharoth was asking for general opinions on blocks, and such opinions were being sought apropros of nothing. However, I reiterate that I inherently trust admins to make good judgements about user behavior, unless clearly they show themselves to be untrustworthy... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

You would be surprised how many people experiment by putting "This guy is teh gay" in an article. That's the problem, you see, some people assume that anyone making an edit like that is doing it to get a kick out of it, rather than chosing an inappropriate place and method of experimentation. You used the word "repeated" and that is a key qualifier. What we call vandalism can sometimes just be someone going "hey, is it really possible that anyone can edit this thing? Wow! Yes, I can. Oops, I just got blocked." Now most people recover from a start like that and can go on to be a good, productive editor, which is why we have warnings. A similar learning process is seen for more "advanced" concepts, such as civility and NPOV and so on. Ideally, all editors would be perfect Wikipedians from the start, but that's not the case. People learn as they edit, and the first block on an issue should be seen as a learning experience. You have to have a clear pattern of failing to learn the same lesson, not just "lots of blocks, no more patience needed, indefinite block". Does that begin to make more sense? Carcharoth (talk) 17:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

True, but once someone has been told "Please stop doing that" and then "We really mean it... stop doing that" and then "Really, you will be blocked if you do it again" and then they are really blocked for 24 hours, and then they come back from the block and make the same edit again, and are blocked for 24 hours again, and then come back and say "Fuck all admins I will do what I want." I inherently trust ALL admins to treat that case differently than someone who makes a joke or test edit a few times, and then says "sorry guys, I was just screwing around. I will be good in the future". And, when an admin says "lots of blocks, no more patience, indefinite block", why do we assume the admin is lazy and has not investigated further. I trust my fellow admins to make good judgement on these issues. Admins don't just look at the number of blocks, they look at the reasons for the blocks, the contribs history, and lots of other factors before asigning an indefinite block. If you have a specific case that needs review, that would help. Otherwise, I will reiterate: Admins know how and when to block indefinitly, and are doing so by and large in a reasonable manner. (edit conflict) --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:23, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, a month-long block in the hopeless cases (usually those who would have lost interest anyway if they had been reverted and ignored) will usually result in a dead account that the user doesn't return to. Same effect as an indefinite block. The users that really want to contribute tend to come back after the month is up, and some of those change and improve. Carcharoth (talk) 17:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Likewise, an indef blocked user can use the unblock template to explain their case. A good mea culpa gets unblocked most of the time. A determined vandal can wait out the month and be a pain in the ass again when it expires. As I said before, if the blocking admin feels in their heart that the user is not going to be a vandal anymore, anything more than a day or two is eggregious. If the admin believes the vandal has no interest in reforming, what is the point in letting them vandalise every two weeks or every month. If you really believe that they will vandalize as soon as the block expires, why let it expire? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Though there are cases where an admin does feel in their heart that someone could contribute, but other admins are just as adamant that the user should remain blocked indefinitely. Those are the difficult cases. Carcharoth (talk) 17:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) As for examples, it would help if it was possible to list indefinite blocks separately from other blocks. That way we really could see if the proportion of indefinite blocks, as compared to other blocks, has increased or decreased over time. Carcharoth (talk) 17:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

That's actually a good idea. If we are to learn to be better admins, some data may be informative... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe someone will rustle up some stats? Carcharoth (talk) 17:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Additional point

I just noticed this point from Redvers:

"And admins are guilty here too, blocking on an AIV report without researching deeply - as I find often as I come back from checking edits, find "good faith but misjudged" all over them and an indef block applied. I used to complain (off-wiki, for the sake of non-drama), until I got a reply containing the words "Mind your own business". So now I don't bother at all. But I don't see how the 'pedia is being improved through all this, I really don't." - User:Redvers (my emphasis)

I'm going to ask him to comment further here. Carcharoth (talk) 12:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi y'all! Yes, this was said in relation to the use of automated editing tools. Frequently - as in at least once every time I clear out AIV (two or three times a week?) - I find this pattern:

1. User:Newbie edits foo, adding "can I reeely edit here?"
2. User:TwinkleAlice reverts, and warns User:Newbie. No welcome message, and uw-vand, not uw-test used.
3. User:Newbie edits bar, changing something minor ("Mr" to "mister", say) but making the article a bit worse.
4. User:TwinkleBob reverts, and warns uw-vand2.
5. User:Newbie edits foobar, reordering a sentence and making some good, some bad changes.
6. User:TwinkleCharles reverts, and, perhaps seeing the two warnings, warns with BV
7. User:TwinkleCharles places a report on AIV
8. User:Admin blocks User:Newbie indef.

User:Newbie's total career on Misplaced Pages: under 10 minutes.

There are variants on this, including shortcircuiting at point 4, with TwinkleBob BV-ing, reporting to AIV and User:Admin indeffing all within seconds.

Some of this problem is due to newer admins having come up through the Misplaced Pages-as-a-roleplaying-game route and still playing the game. Some of this is because admins AGF of the person reporting the "vandal" - especially when AIV is backlogged, it's easier to assume that the reporter is right, double check the last edit and that there's a BV warning, not check the time and block indef.

Now, I don't argue with blocking indef - it should exist, it should be used, it is much more often used correctly than it is used incorrectly. My beef is with it being used for non-blatant vandalism - what we used to call "testing", and the incorrect identification of tests by editors using automated tools. That we as admins are facilitating these bad warnings by blocking on little or no evidence is a symptom of a problem, not a problem in itself. ➔ REDVEЯS with my innocent hand on my heart 13:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Good points. Here are a couple reports I just checked out at WP:AIV:

68.2.156.53 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) - apparently, this user's offenses include replacing "horn" with "French horn". Is that vandalism? No, that's just someone who's perhaps unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages terminology or the discussions that have been done regarding the accepted terminology of a horn (instrument). Content disputes are not vandalism.

Canccono (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - created an article named "If u know me good for ur face u butt head and BTW KILL (someone's name omitted)", vandalized Thyroid (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and other edits seem to indicate a vandal-only account. I was considering a block for being a vandal-only account, but he hadn't been properly warned, so AndonicO (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) gave the correct warning.

I think Redvers is correct in that people often give quick warnings with Twinkle and make quick reports to WP:AIV without fully investigating the situation. Maybe some of these people are users who really want to become admins, so they hope to increase their chances by calling themselves "vandal fighters". I don't know what it would take to change this culture, though. --Elkman 16:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm quite disturbed by this as well; I've left notes on dozens of users' talk pages that they should check the times on the last warning, and the last vandalism before reporting, but only a few really follow the advice. Perhaps we need "MOAR", as Gurch puts it. · AndonicO 16:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

all of this is a reason why usually a informal statement saying "enough of this. stop now, or I can and will block you" seems to work well for many types of people playing with WP. I have never had a school-type guy continue after something like that, & I often actually get an apology. DGG (talk) 02:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's an interesting (related) point, from editors recently talking on AIV's talk page: Template:Cquote2 A small chorus of agreement from other "vandalfighters" follows - "I totally agree with all of the above..." "Yes can common sense please prevail". Now this is Not A Good Thing - editors arguing they shouldn't have to "spell out exactly what the vandal did to get it taken care of". One goes as far to say "I myself am fighting to keep pages free of vandalism but i simply cant do it forever! And as soon as i leave these pages are going to become full of vandalism/false information again".

So "vandal fighters" are threatening to leave unless we (admins) get the same hair-trigger as them. This suggest there are people here who only fight vandals and they're burning out. Would I be incivil if I suggested that these people try something else instead? I don't know what. Perhaps writing an encyclopedia? Is that too crazy? ➔ REDVEЯS with my innocent hand on my heart 09:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Editing or removing another editor's comments from a talk page

I asked for a third opinion regarding an incident at Talk:Politicization of science where my attempts at civil discussion were classified as WP:SOAP by User:Hrafn and removed from the talk page. A third opinion was rendered by User:Vassyana who suggested that the matter of the deleted text be brought before a sysop and that the disagreement about the article's title and content be brought before WP:MEDCAB or WP:RFC. I have lost any desire to edit this article based on the treatment I received from User:Hrafn and User:Athene cunicularia, but I would still like to see an admin weigh in on the issue of the deleted text. Please note that User:Hrafn added the {{notaforum}} after I objected to the removal of the comments. MoodyGroove (talk) 17:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)MoodyGroove

Even if one's comments may be most appropriate for a forum, it's (in my opinion) absolutely improper and incorrect to remove another's comments from an article's talk page. If you believe one is using an article's talk page as a forum then kindly bring it up on the user's talk page. Removing the comments from the article's talk page is wrong. Bstone (talk) 18:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Unless there is real incivility or libelous material, or over the top stuff, user comments on talk page should be left, IMHO. A REAL quick scan of the edits don't look that bad/harmful ect so I would leave, but I didn't dig too deep. This is also after I have had to remove a bunch of stuff from some talk pages so I guess..."It depends" Anyways, --Tom 18:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Everyone, unless restricted by an arb ruling, may participate in the article talk page. Removing comments of others, or changing them is disruption. I gave a final warning. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I direct Rlevse's attention to WP:TALK#Others' comments: "Some examples of appropriately editing others' comments: ... Deleting material not relevant to improving the article (per the above subsection #How to use article talk pages)." I also direct Rlevse's attention to template:notaforum: "This is not a forum for general discussion of . Any such messages will be deleted." I would suggest that Rlevse's "final warning" is in error. Hrafn_Stalk 03:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

What Hrafn says is correct. Our talk pages are not forums for off-topic jabber. Talk pages for Politicization of science and other articles like it (which tend to attract much disinformation, and about which people may hold strange, unreal ideas) tend to attract lots of off-topic discussion. It's not the job of the people keeping up these articles to debunk every crackpot that comes along; if they want to delete what's not related to the article at hand, they are most certainly allowed to do so. Raul654 (talk) 03:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I commented there. See that talk page. Raul, the danger therein re what you're saying is who defines what is off topic and is it really off topic. Unless the issue is getting out of hand, I feel it's better to just leave it there, otherwise you'd likely start another unneeded dispute. The template Hrafn points to is for "large amounts of" discusion. Here, we're talking about one short edit. As for W:TALK, very few edits will qualify for it. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That's the same problem we have with everything on this project, and the answer is WP:CONSENSUS. It's usually clear when a lone crackpot is relentlessly on a soapbox, and we should feel free to remove such comments. If other users think the topic is legitimately important to the article, they should certainly feel free to restore the material. Cool Hand Luke 00:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, I find it useful to put such comments under a {{hat}} with the caption "Off-topic discussion about ." Contentious editors are more likely to accept archiving than outright removal, and it spurs the talk page away from feeding the trolls. Cool Hand Luke 00:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I tend to do that in threads involving several editors going off-topic. When the thread involves only one editor I prefer to 'userfy' the thread to the user in question's talkpage, which is fairly standard practice on such pages, and is what I did on this occasion. I only delete outright obvious nonsense and blatant trolling. Hrafn_Stalk 02:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Would it be too much to ask for some sysops to review the deleted material and User:Hrafn's demeanor on the talk page to determine if this was a simple case of a well-meaning editor removing the outright nonsense of a troll? MoodyGroove (talk) 14:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)MoodyGroove

Read more carefully: I "'userf' the thread to the user in question's talkpage", I did not "delete outright". Therefore I was not inferring that your comments were "the outright nonsense of a troll" (merely that it was an impermissible "general conversation" on the topic of 'the politicisation of science'). Hrafn_Stalk 15:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems like an essay directed more toward society than the article. We're not a forum for such things. Try to make comments that directly relate to problems you perceive in the article. Talk pages are solely for the improvement of articles, not society. My own preference would have been to place it under a hat, but userfication is also valid here, I think. Cool Hand Luke 06:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Current Arbcom with fairly broad implications

Hi folks, this case has issues within it on editor behaviour which go past the original brief and may affect other areas of wikipedia. I have thrown up a suggestion here in the workshop which would have broader implications and I encourage people to read (if you can't get the context have a browse through the rest of it if you have time). cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, take a look. The basic question is "How much fancruft should Misplaced Pages have?" The big problem used to be band articles, but standards seem to have been established there. The issue with bands was "are they notable?" The issue with TV is "how much detail is too much?", which is a tough concept to define, although WP:FICT tries. --John Nagle (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:SNO closing at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Thomas Wilcher

It would be a WP:COI if I performed the WP:SNOW at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Thomas Wilcher, but it is getting might blustery.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 07:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking the discussion should go for a little while longer. It might actually spur some discussion about the notability of athletes' biographies. If the nominator changes his mind later, or if there's a slew of "keep" votes after another day and no "delete" votes, then the snowball clause would be appropriate. --Elkman 16:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The Rogue Penguin

The Rogue Penguin is refusing to allow an addition to the article Shinigami (Death Note) . The addition deals with the thought that the mysterious Shinigami that appears in the Death Note director's cut special could be Light Yagami. The modification I have been attempting to make is one stating that there is speculation that the Shinigami may be Light Yagami. This does not imply that the Shinigami IS Light, it merely states that there are those who think it that he is, or may, be Light.

The statement that there are those who think the Shinigami to be Light is a FACT. There are many arguments over whether or not he may be, but the arguments ARE existent and should not be ignored. This can be seen in the past modifications of the article and in a few outside sources as well:

The Rogue Penguin has decided to ignore this fact stating: "it would be unsourced speculation"

Speculation is a theory that is not (or very lightly) supported by evidence. Siting speculation with a 'credible source' would be almost impossible as the entire idea of speculation is that it is not credible.

The fact is, many people THINK that the Shinigami is (or may) be Light. The fact that it is a thought that is shared by a generally wide community would be reason enough to include it in the article while making sure to state that it is only speculation so as to let the reader know that there are people who believe it to be true, and it adds another way of looking at the ending scene which generates healthy discussion (as can be seen in the outside links above).

To ignore an idea out of arrogance is foolish.

Bokugakira (talk) 08:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

No, he is following policy, WP:V in particular. - Caribbean~H.Q. 08:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd specify to undue weight. I don't find it relevant what three or thirty bloggers, posters, or videographers think unless they happen to be "people you should listen to", for example experts in that area. Random opinions don't add to the content imho.Wjhonson (talk) 09:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Would a mention of the quote (using the source ) be acceptable if it carried no opinion? Then it would just be additional information, no speculation involved.

Bokugakira (talk) 21:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It would appear plausible that TV.com is a reliable source for a synopsis of an episode. I am not myself familiar with that site. The main question to ask is, are these synopsis writen by the staff at tv.com, or are they submitted by any member of the general public. The fact that a page happens to allow additional forum comments isn't relevant, imho, to what other content the page may contain. Many reliable source bloggers allow comments and yet they are experts in their fields and may be cited as such. If you and the other editors have further comments, it would be judicious to take them to either the Talk page at verifiability or the reliable sources noticeboard. Thanks, and have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 21:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

TV.com show info is almost entirely user-submitted. It's not a reliable source. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 22:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The vandalism of 99.237.253.131 (aka HinduMuslim)

I think the article of Islam in India should be block because Contributions/99.237.253.131 (or aka HinduMuslim and Vikash83) has always attacked my in my Talk Page because I've only added sources of Indian Gov., CIA, U.S. Department of States, etc...all were showed the common estimates of Muslim population in India as 148 million or 13.4% (please look at its history and here is his attacks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Angelo_De_La_Paz#Islam_in_India

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Angelo_De_La_Paz#India_holding_2nd_Largest_Muslim_population_in_World

And he is staring to vandalize some Chinese or Buddhist related article such as Religion in China, List of religious populations,History of Islam in China, Islam in China.

Thank you so much!

Angelo De La Paz (talk) 16:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP as noted at User talk:99.237.253.131, but will not block the other users immediately, without more evidence. Anyone? Bearian (talk) 21:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Removal of 3RR warning by User:Appletrees

Appletrees (talk · contribs) has removed my {{3RR}} warning from User talk:75.7.8.176, accusing me of "deliberate factual errors" .

For the record, the warned user 75.7.8.176 (talk · contribs) reverted 2 times in the last 24 hours in Sea of Japan, and 3 times in the last 48 hours (+ 2 min.), as follows...

• 15:56, 21 January 2008 (75.7.8.176) — added "or East Sea"
• 03:23, 23 January 2008 (75.7.8.176) — added "(East Sea)"
• 15:58, 23 January 2008 (75.7.8.176) — added "(East Sea)", etc.

Appletrees is an involved party in the revert wars, as his following edit seems to show...

• 19:17, 18 January 2008 (Appletrees) — added "and is often refered to as East Sea", etc.

Please verify if my warning to the anon. user was warranted, and restore the warning if appropriate. I appoligize in advance if I was in error. Thank you very much.--Endroit (talk) 18:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Appletress has no right to remove warnings from other people's pages. If the IP address in question contests the warning you have given, let them do it. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Appletrees informed of this topic. EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I knew it you would do this kind of thing without notifying me per your contribution history. Well, the warning is not warranted because you, Endroit falsely accused the anon who reverted 3 times within 48hours is not in danger of the 3rr violation. The policy clearly is effective in 24 hours not 48 hours. That is not a good-faith edit and your warning is regarded as an offensive insult for the anon. You're the main involved party on edit warring with the other party. You can't accuse anyone by your "own" standard.

Besides, you label some user, with sockpuppetry before making an official file. You're not an authority so please stop the disruptive behaviors. --Appletrees (talk) 19:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Now that he mentioned it, Appletrees also removed a {{sockpuppet}} tag from Water Bear 87 (talk · contribs). I'd appreciate if the admins review that case as well. After that incident, I requested RFCU here.--Endroit (talk) 19:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I made the report below on your disruptive accusation before making an official file. You cann't accuse anyone without any report or evidence. You're the one playing the false rule. --Appletrees (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Appletrees, being the good Wikilawyer that he is, should also note that WP:3RR states clearly "The motivation for the three-revert rule is to prevent edit warring. In this spirit the rule does not convey an entitlement to revert three times each day, nor does it endorse reverting as an editing technique. Rather, the rule is an "electric fence". Editors may still be blocked even if they have made three or fewer reverts in a 24 hour period, if their behavior is clearly disruptive." Also, it should be noted for Appletrees that Endroit did not initiate any block of the IP inquestion, he left a warning, which needs to be left so that the IP user in question has the opportunity to read it. Finally, the major problem is that it is not Appletree's right to remove comments made by one user to third user. If the user in question has a problem, they can raise their own objections. Appletrees should not be removing or altering discussions between two other people that do not concern him/her. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe the 3RR waring is issued mainly for precaution in danger of violating impending 3RR. You, administrator of course, know well about the wiki rules than me. However, I've seen his parade of accusing somebody without proof but with his strong belief, so the warning sign doesn't seem to be appropriate and be from good faith. As far as I've known, Endroit is not a good wikilaywer because he take an important role in the center of nationalistic edit warrings between Japan and Korea. If he really wanted to warn him for possible edit conflicts, he could've talked to him in a civil way not with the warning. It is so funny, he accused me of sending "bogus sign" as removed the warning sign and my comment.

Rv bogus warning by an involved party in the revert wars

If he is right on sending the 3RR warning to the editor, he might have not deleted my comment and warnings. Or he is also a main involved party, so his warning is not warranted or because he is the most notable edit warrior on the article. --Appletrees (talk) 19:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

No one appears to have violated the 3RR rule here, and everyone appears to know about it, so you can cease arguing about whether or not a warning was useful or not. Since this article includes the word "Japan" in the title, I reckon this is some more asinine Korean/Japanese/Chinese nationalistic edit warring. Since there's clearly a dispute, I've protected the article until you all can decide whether or not it should be called the "Sea of Japan", "East Sea", "Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sea", "Chinese Sea Near Korea", "International Sea with No Nationalistic Affiliation (Especially not Japanese)", or whatever you end up deciding. --Haemo (talk) 20:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

POV pushing and false accusation by User:Endroit

I should've reported his disruptive POV earlier but I didn't. Because I believe that before making a report, trying to converse with editors on the other party is way better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Appletrees (talk • contribs) 19:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Sea of Japan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Endroit's revert warring with the other party.

• 14:05, 4 January 2008 by Endroit
• 1st revert 11:38, 10 January 2008 by Endroit
• 2nd revert 12:02, 10 January 2008 by Endroit
• 3rd revert14:24, 10 January 2008 by Endroit

• 12:34, 16 January 2008 by Endroit
• 12:59, 17 January 2008 by Endroit

• 14:07, 18 January 2008 by Endroit
• 17:00, 19 January 2008 by Endroit

• 11:25, 23 January 2008 by Endroit

How many revert warring have you ever made since 2008? 5 cases!!! And you totally reverted 10 times as you have pushed your POV to the other party. I reverted one time in partial of your edit which is a compromised version. Besides, I suggested twice that we can make a new poll for the matter due to this Misplaced Pages:tendentious editing.

Endroit, you are the one to get the 3RR warning per this evidence. Besides, as I said before on your talk page, you're violating WP:OWN. You can't own the article and force to follow your "own" rule if there occurs a conflict of interest. You didn't even notify me to this wrong report.

User:DrinkNaval (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) User:Water Bear 87 (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• 13:21, 17 January 2008
• 13:22, 17 January 2008

Per your false accusation without any proof or official report to SSP and RFCU on two editors who disagree with your opinion is just disruptive. As I've watched your behaviors, this accusation is out of line. After my suggestion, you made a RFCU file. But you even included me in your report without making differs but just from your belief. You should look yourself before making another mistake --Appletrees (talk) 19:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

All my reverts this year in Sea of Japan were against SPA's and anon's, except the one against Appletrees. And ALL those reverts were against undiscussed edits. There were no rules broken.--Endroit (talk) 19:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That is just what you or your party are thinking. You haven't suggested to the other party to engage in the discussion before I reverted your edit in partial one time. The naming convention was set two and half years ago, and is not set on stone. That's why many editors have reverted what they want. Along with them, you also continuously just reverted!!!. You can't own the article at all and accused somebody unless they violated distinctive disruptions or vandalism. Your accusation of sockepuppetry on the two editors is just disruptive. --Appletrees (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I recently started a discussion at Talk:Sea of Japan#"often refered to as East Sea". All parties are welcome to comment there. Appletrees' party has repeatedly tried to insert the phrase "often refered to as East Sea", and that was the reason I initiated the discussion.--Endroit (talk) 20:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That was after my suggestion for a new poll at the edit summary, so I can say I'm the one who suggested the discussion. Didn't I answer you about your unilateral 'fixing' on your talk page and the article page? Your party is not showing either except you. --Appletrees (talk) 20:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

See my comment above. These tit-for-tat "reports" to WP:ANI are totally unproductive. There appears to be no need for admin intervention here, beyond the protection. --Haemo (talk) 20:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the this tit-for-tat reports but I feel annoyed at his describe as him as a victim. "We" will of course discuss the matter at the talk page.--Appletrees (talk) 20:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if Appletrees was User:Appleby reincarnated. The pattern of editing and the articles edited are uncannily similar. ···日本穣 06:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not surprised at your rude defamation because you're the main one of the party. You have to apology to me due to your public defamation after User:Endroit]'s accusation on my possible sockpuppetry RFCU comes out. --Appletrees (talk) 16:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

What does "the main one of the party" mean? Your comment makes no sense. ···日本穣 01:20, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Prolific POV-pusher moving from Misplaced Pages to WikiNews

Hi. I really need some good advice here from experienced users. A prolific POV-pusher has made a move from Misplaced Pages to WikiNews and there do not appear to be mechanisms in place there to check him. I am referring to Cirt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Cirt runs an incredible 5000+ edits per month with the main effect of his efforts being to bring articles critical of (primarily) Scientology to featured and front page status. And you know what, I have no objection to that. Misplaced Pages is a community and featured articles are the most scrutinized of all and I am comfortable with the community holding him in check so if he can make a Scientology-critical piece into a featured article then more power to him. Of course in areas that are not scrutinized he has more "freedom of expression" as in the article on Bowfinger where the only "Theme", according to Cirt was that Scientology is a cult, see this. He expanded it a bit after I pulled his little piece though it is still unduly weighted. Or perhaps Curt's recent spat of AfDing and prodding Scientology-series articles that are, IDK, not sufficiently critical? I am not going to play around with words here, I respect this community too much. I, for one, am 100% certain that Cirt is a reincarnation of Smee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (formerly Smeelgova (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who disappeared just before Cirt appeared. Their interests, article for article, are identical, as is their editing style and MO, with Smee famous for bringing material critical of Scientology to the front page under WP:DYK.

So what does this have to do with WikiNews? Well, we were discussing a recent DDOS attack on the CofS on the talk page and whether it was notable (consensus seeming to be no, not notable) and I saw a reference to a WikiNews article so I went over there. I found that someone had been very busy indeed! Not only an article on Jan 20, Hackers attack Church of Scientology website but another today, "Anonymous" releases statements outlining "War on Scientology" and the first raised to FEATURED STORY status. So today, a release by some bunch of anonymous haters is front page news along with Gaza and Iraq. Who would think that? Who would benefit from that thought? Of course, I find that both were essentially written by the same person, Wilhelm. And I happen to know that Cirt's original name here was User:Curt Wilhelm Von Savage, an alias once used by Werner Erhard, the founder of EST, another of Cirt's targets, see the little treatment at Semi-Tough, similar to the treatment at Bowfinger (you may need to go back a bit as recent GA review may have toned it down). I also recognize Cirt's style in the WikiNews articles but then I am very familiar with it.

So you see my dilemma? So long as Cirt was not repeating Smee's more offensive errors and working within the community, I had no huge problem with his efforts to push his agenda. I knew that the community was large enough and the structure strong enough to hold him in check and meanwhile the project gets a prolific editor. But this WikiNews thing is a dealbreaker for me. He is using the power of Wikpedia to push the ill intentions of a small group of ne'er-do-wells (and read their page if you do not know what they are about) and he is doing it with no regard for the project or for anything other than his agenda. And there do not appear to be mechanisms in place at WikiNews to hold him in check. I really do not know where to go with this. This is a big thing and, if Cirt/Wilhelm is left unchecked, it will only get worse. Help. Please. Thanks in advance. --JustaHulk (talk) 20:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• Please speak more! Just kidding. Misplaced Pages has no power over Wikinews. What users do in out-space is not under our control. You can certainly cut Wikinews links from here if you find they are not reliable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wjhonson (talk • contribs) 20:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Sorry, this is not a simple issue that could be summarized in a few words. --JustaHulk (talk) 20:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Wikinews also has policy pages don't they? They must. It might be very helpful to that sister-project to take your concerns there as well. Remember that our policies were fine-tuned over many quite um.... enthusiastic discussions.Wjhonson (talk) 20:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Actually, Wikinews isn't a reliable source at all - WP:V specifically excludes open wikis such as Wikinews from consideration as sources. (Added) I note, though, that Wired has reported on the story that you mention (see ) so if you really want to document it I suppose Wired would suffice as a reliable source. I don't think it's a particularly notable episode though - don't fall into the trap of recentism! -- ChrisO (talk) 21:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
        • I would note however some rumblings from certain "persons to listen to" that Wikinews *might* be coming up the world. (cf somewhere Jimbo has some thoughts on this) So some editors here should probably begin paying more attention to Wikinews Policy pages before the situation gets out-of-hand. Wjhonson (talk) 22:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
          • There was a fairly recent discussion about this on the Foundation-l mailing list if anyone wants to go through the archive. I believe it has to do with WikiNews's policy on "archiving" (protecting) articles once there is no more news relating to the subject. Mr.Z-man 22:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Wikinews has the Neutral point of view policy that all Foundation projects have. It has been reasonably well exercised over the years. Uncle G (talk) 11:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not going to argue on source reliability of WN. If there is no wrong doing or proof then nothing to worry about. So stop trolling the trolls. DragonFire1024 (talk) 01:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Alerting this project to misuse of a sister project to basically promote cyberterrorism is hardly trolling. Let's see a front page story (or two or Featured) on WikiNews about some "announcement" by Encyclopedia Dramatica. Let's see how far that gets --JustaHulk (talk) 04:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • WikiNews has the problem that their "front page stories" are really just a list of recent changes. They're probably going to have to come up with a better approach. What they have doesn't scale. --John Nagle (talk) 06:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
    • No, they aren't. What is listed on the main page is determined by a story's status. And we came up with a scalable system ages ago. We have a wide range of specific topic and area portals. Indeed, the level of new stories has nowhere near reached what the system is capable of, yet. See how low the story rate is at n:Portal:Brazil, for example. Uncle G (talk) 11:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• Misplaced Pages has nothing to say about WikiNews? Yet when I look at the Scientology article, what do I see at the bottom but Cirt/Wilhelm's WikiNews over-promotion of the ill intentions of a loose collection of cyberterrorists. Interesting because at least one of the *chan's is showing more discretion than Misplaced Pages in that 7chan has apparently blocked promotion of this group's activity. That is a truly sad reflection on Misplaced Pages. --JustaHulk (talk) 20:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Articles here are based on policy and consensus. There are many avenues to address your concerns but AN/I wouldn't be the appropriate one. We have policies that cover for example verifiability and neutral point of view and it sounds a lot to me like you're having a content issue, that should be taken to one of those talk pages, instead of here to get more input. Wjhonson (talk) 20:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I was asking for input about WikiNews and I learned that there is little that can be done here. I brought the subject up over there at their equivalent to this board but the little bit of response I got indicates that basically what is being run over there is more an open blog than a responsible news organization and Cirt/Wilhelm is free to turn the WikiNews site into "The Anti-Scientology News". Good news for him, no doubt. --JustaHulk (talk) 14:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Obsession

Your obsession, Justanother, with Smee and editors you presume to be Smee must end. You dislike the attentions that Anynobody directs at you, do you not? Then please stop chasing Smee. This whole situation reminds me of the crocodile and Captain Hook in Walt Disney's Peter Pan. Tick, tock, tick, tock... Jehochman 14:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ain't no "presume" about it but your point is taken. Obviously, my concerns fall on deafish ears. So be it. --JustaHulk (talk) 14:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Smee may or may not have editing problems. Given the history of bad blood, why don't you let somebody else deal with that? Likewise, I would give the same advice to Anynobody concerning your editing. If everybody follows this advice, we will have much more peace and happiness at Misplaced Pages. Jehochman 14:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I already said that I trust the community to hold Cirt in check as regards featured articles. I was addressing another point entirely and will not bore the reader by repeating myself on that. BTW, more eyes are especially helpful now at Scientology and related articles due to a spate of red users trying to forward the little 1337 campaign. --JustaHulk (talk) 16:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

American Journal Experts

Other administrators may be interested in the discussion on my talk page at User talk:Bduke#Regarding deleting of American Journal Experts. It appears that User:Blue1, an employee or manager of American Journal Experts, wants to track down whether the user who wrote the article, now deleted, is an ex-employee of theirs. I have no intention of having any further correspondence with him. --Bduke (talk) 03:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I've suggested they contact the Foundation. Individual admins should never consider disclosing information like this. Carcharoth (talk) 13:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/American Journal Experts. Carcharoth (talk) 13:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Blocking unblocked Tor (anonymity network) nodes

Hey, everyone. For a bit now, I've been creating and monitoring User:SQL/Unblocked TOR, using my bot, User:SQLBot. I believe, that I've got a stable list, of valid Tor (anonymity network) nodes, that allow exit to en.wikipedia.org. No other exits, not the secure server, nothing else. It's been suggested, that my list is inaccurate, as someone else list shows a few more TOR nodes. I seriously believe, that this is because I double-check nodes, and, try to err on the side of not listing it, if there is any doubt at all.

WP:BLOCK presently states Open or anonymous proxies are prohibited from editing by the Wikimedia Foundation, and may be blocked on sight., so, it seems that policy supports this. However, Tor (anonymity network) has it's good uses, such as for chineese users.

I'm presently, contemplating on a one-time run, blocking all valid TOR exits, that allow access to en.wikipedia.org, leaning towards setting the following flags: Anon only, Account Creation Blocked. The block would be for a period of 48 hours, as a test, and, tagging those exits with {{tor}}. This would leave open the secure server, for the duration of this test, and allow for logged-in editing. This would be in order to enforce our policy on open and anonymizing proxies, which is in place, to prevent vandalism, and disruption, particularly by banned users.

Now, I want to make it crystal clear, that I absolutely do not intend on doing this, without a clear consensus here, to do so. Also, if I do, I have absolutely no intention on continuing it in the future, without an equally clear consensus to do so. I run a TOR node, myself, however, I disallow wikipedia exits.

I'd like to see what other admins, and editors think, about doing this. Especially, hardblock v softblock. SQL 05:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Open or anonymous proxies are prohibited from editing by the Wikimedia Foundation, and may be blocked on sight. Open or anonymous proxies may be blocked for any length of time to deal with abuse. This has bugger all to do with the Foundation – Gurch 06:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

One objection I have is after this is done will there any way to anonymously create an account and edit and if so has this process been detailed anywhere? This may be a stupid idea but I don't have any trust in the checkuser process nor the foundation's ability to protect user information against large organizations or corrupt governments. BJ 06:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

There's always unblock-en-l, I see a lot of account creation traffic there, already. SQL 06:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that there is neither a prohibition on Tor nodes editing, nor a policy against it, nor any overwhelming reason to block them all. There is also no censensus on the soft-or-hard-block question. The recent discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Blocking policy/Tor nodes is probably relevant. If someone is writing a bot, how about one to unblock all the indef-blocked proxies which are no longer open. -- zzuuzz 12:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy to :) If you get me a list of every IP presently blocked for being a TOR / proxy (I've got a list of the 222 present blocked TOR nodes), I should be able to have it done by the end of the day... As far as policy regarding disabling editing from TOR, there's a couple, WP:OP, and WP:BLOCK quoted above. Not talking about blocking them all, either... Just the ones that allow WP exit (and even then, just to the regular server -- not the secure server). SQL 13:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

There are currently over 7,000 dynamic IPs listed at WT:OP waiting to be checked, and there's a whole category full (I count over 2,000) listed at Category:Tor proxies blocked on Misplaced Pages. I rephrase my point - there is no overwhelming reason to block all the Tor nodes capable of editing Misplaced Pages, nor any consensus on the other issues. -- zzuuzz 13:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't realize there was a category! Unfortunately, real life has intervened once again :( I'll look at them in a moment, thanks! SQL 19:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

One of the more fundamental principles of Misplaced Pages is that anyone can edit. Blocking tor nodes would unnecessarily hinder this principle. Soft-block them all. BETA 13:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

SQL, give me 24 hours and Ill get you a list of all IP's that are blocked after 2010. that will be all indef's and very long IP blocks that are caused by proxy blocks. β 16:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Betacommand, could you possibly filter it by those with {{tor}} in/as the block message? SQL 19:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

SQL http://tools.wikimedia.de/~betacommand/tor%20IP.txt that is a list of all IP's with "tor" in the block summary sorted by unblock date. β 22:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

AWB

Hi. I just added my name and noticed there is a backlog of requests at Misplaced Pages talk:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage for AWB, dating back to January 13. Thanks -- Matthew Edwards | talk | Contribs 06:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not a backlog. Porcupine is the only user who was listed before yoyu got there, and The Placebo Effect is looking into it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Imahge speedy backlog

Can some admin please deal with the speedy images? There are over 40. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Review of indef block of Piperdown

Piperdown has asked that his block be reviewed in which he was accused of being a sock and/or meatpuppet of User:Wordbomb. I agree that it should be reviewed in light of recent events. Piperdown explains in a WR thread that it appears that someone monkeyed with his account to make it difficult for him to post to his talk page . Also, David Gerard's actions with respect to anything he thinks is associated with Overstock.com and WordBomb is suspect, the evidence being his block of a town in Utah, stating that WordBomb lived there and falsely stating that the local ISP was an open proxy . Only after a second, independent source confirmed that his statement was false did he unblock the town . I don't personally believe that Piperdown's block was justified or fair and am asking that he get a neutral review from an uninvolved admin. Cla68 (talk) 06:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I read what Piperdown had to say both on his talk page here and on WR, and I have to say that I'm confused as to why he was blocked. He'd certainly seemed to be making perfectly good and valid edits up to the point of his being blocked, and his talk page looks pretty much like any other established editor's. He appears to have been indefinitely blocked without warning, from what I can see from his talkpage history. However, without David Gerard's input, I've very little to go on here so what I'd like to maybe see happen would be for David to post a statement here giving his rationale for indefinitely blocking Piperdown as a sock of Wordbomb, and allowing the admin community to review accordingly. I'm guessing David is unaware of this thread as of now, so I'll see he's made aware of it - Alison 07:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into it and I admit that I was remiss in not notifying Gerard of this thread myself. Cla68 (talk) 07:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Confused why he was ever blocked in the first place. He needs to be unblocked immediately Bstone (talk) 07:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This page User:Piperdown/1 makes it appear that the user is either Wordbomb or a meatpuppet of him. I suggest we wait to hear from the blocking admin. Since the block was placed several months ago this isn't urgent. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Since this user subpage seems to have played a large part in Piperdown's block, I've temporarily restored it so people can check out the evidence while this block is being reviewed. krimpet✽ 05:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Piperdown is probably WordBomb's most vociferous supporter on Misplaced Pages Review, and his comments on WR leave little doubt that he is highly unlikely to be a productive member of the Misplaced Pages community. It is also not credible that he is only just aware of being blocked; I am sure his ban was mentioned on WR ages ago. This looks like gaming the system, or at least playing us for a bunch of naive fools. Guy (Help!) 09:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

My reading of Piperdown's request is that he was aware of the block at the time it was placed and he is not claiming otherwise. Thincat (talk) 14:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

His unblock request from September is all about how what he did was ok, not about how he would drop the subject so he could edit other areas of interest. Considering that, and his deleted contributions, I agree with Guy that he is unlikely to be (or resume being, if he was before) a productive editor. Thatcher 15:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Someone contributions on WR have absolutely nothing to do with their ability to effectively write and edit articles on this project. I am shocked anyone would make such a claim. Bstone (talk) 16:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

If there was no overlap between the two, fine. However, Piperdown's deleted contributions (especially User:Piperdown/1) shows that he wants to pursue the same agenda as Wordbomb of attacking certain editors for alleged conflicts of interest on certain articles, and his unblock request from September did not say, "I want to write and edit articles" but "there is nothing wrong with pursuing conflict of interest charges in this case." Thatcher 16:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, he admits that he created User:Piperdown/1 as a result of User:Mantanmoreland/1, at least that's what the deleted page states. Regarding his September unblock request, how about we ask him what the situation is now? I'm not seeing a lot of evidence here other than hearsay and the after-the-fact comments that "he is unlikely to be a productive editor". I suspect he's active and vociferous on WR because he's been indefinitely blocked on here and that he sees his block as being in error. He appears to have always stated that he's not WordBomb and, frankly, if he was a throwaway sock of WB, he's kept up this pretense for an awfully long time now - Alison 16:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Alison, you might want to take a close look at some of the conspiracy-mongering this user engaged in before the block. Some diffs have been collected here, although these only scratch the surface. SlimVirgin 16:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll admit that I've no idea of this editor's background or past history, but I'll take a look. From his talk page history, it looks just like any other, really. I'd like to see David Gerard comment here as he's obviously the most familiar - Alison 16:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

If "pursuing conflict of interest charges" is something to be discouraged, we should delete WP:COI/N. Even if the conflicts he believes exist in fact do not - I'm sure there are some percentage of WP:COI/N reports that turn out to be incorrect. He has the right to be wrong. —Random832 18:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

But he does not have the right to harass other users as a proxy for a banned editor. If he wants to pursue COI charges "for the good of the Wiki" he can contact Arbcom privately. I suppose he could be unblocked if he said something like "I disagree on principle but I will avoid that subject and edit other topics" (subject to monitoring by whatever admin took responsibility for him by unblocking) but honestly his defenders here are doing more harm than good. Thatcher 19:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not a question of avoiding one subject, though. He used to follow me around trying to tie every admin action of mine into his grand conspiracy theory, and I'm probably not the only one he did it to. Can any of his defenders point to any good content he added to the encyclopedia? SlimVirgin 19:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The last time you made such a statement, it led to a flood of meatpuppets blanking pages that Jon Awbrey had contributed to in order to prove a point; right or wrong, I would suggest you ought to do more research before categorically stating (as you did there) or implying (as you did here) that someone has made no worthwhile contributions, since even ignoring the disruptive effect, it is a personal attack. —Random832 17:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Does WP:AGF apply here? This is pretty much what the question boils down to at the root. If he may help wikipedia, then an unblock is right. If it's clear that he won't, then the indef block is fine. Since I haven't followed the case, I don't have an opinion personally. Wizardman 19:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I am shocked this has gone on as far as it has. This fellow is blocked because he's posting at WR and because of what he might do. Seemingly, he has an opinion held by another blocked editor. Shocking. Unblock this person and be done with this. Bstone (talk) 19:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

No, there's an extensive history of meatpuppet behavior here, which has reached the "quacking louder than we can ignore anymore" stage. Wordbomb and other overstock.com related abusers are not welcome here, in any form. You cannot reasonably ignore the long history of misbehavior that this user has exhibited. What they're saying now here and presumably on Misplaced Pages Review (I haven't gone to look yet) doesn't excuse or explain their contributions for the last year. 65.200.208.230 (talk) 19:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a really, really tough time with a random, anon IP telling me that overstock.com abusers are not welcome at wikipedia. Moreover without any arbcom or other policies to backup your claim I am at the verge of giggles. This whole thing is silly. Unblock the fellow who was a good contributor to this project and enough of these silly games. Bstone (talk) 20:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Then I will agree with the IP editor that Piperdown's block is about more than OMG he posts to WR. And do you really mean "overstock.com abusers" should be welcome? I assume there is typo in there somewhere, because editors who are associated with overstock.com and its crusade to explain its crappy share price as the result of naked short selling, and who then go on to smear anyone who says otherwise, including Wall Street Journal reporters, stock analysts and Misplaced Pages editors and administrators, is absolutely not welcome to edit Misplaced Pages, unless they are willing to leave that behind them when they put on their Misplaced Pages hat. Tell you what, as soon as Piperdown agrees to stay off the topic, you can personally unblock him, as long as you are willing to be responsible for his edits. Oh wait... Thatcher 20:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

SV and others claim he was blocked due to harassment, so I don't see how a topic ban would help...unless he was actually blocked due to an unpopular POV. I'm also a little puzzled by this block. Cool Hand Luke 22:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

In fairness, Piperdown has not been blocked because he posts to WR, he's been blocked because he's been accused of being a sockpuppet/meatpuppet of WordBomb. That's the issue here, not WR participation - Alison 20:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I think he was blocked because he was harassing people, in a way that suggested WordBomb sock or meatpuppetry. But it's the harassment (trolling, wikistalking, conspiracy-mongering) that was the main issue, as I recall. SlimVirgin 20:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the "evidence" compiled on Mantanmoreland's sub-page, I don't see any harrassment or incivility severe enough to warrant an indefinite block. In fact, I've seen some of the editors who have commented above, including myself, give opinions on issues that are just as strong. The fact that he spends some of his editing time addressing a few of the issues that Wordbomb took an interest in should also not be an offense worthy of an infefinite block. Looking at his contribution history shows a lot of value-added edits to a great variety of topics. Any association with what may or may not be Wordbomb's past agenda, no matter how tenuous, should not be some kind of "third rail" that results in indefinite blocks for good faith editors. Again, I don't believe Piperdown was treated fairly here or in a manner consistent with how other editors are treated. Cla68 (talk) 21:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, the issue was the harassment, which was similar to the harassment WordBomb engaged in (similar subject matter, similar voice, the same targets), but the issue was the harassment, and it was pretty extensive. Can you supply some diffs showing positive content he added to the encyclopedia? SlimVirgin 21:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

One has only to look at his contributions list. In addition to editing a wide variety of topics, he also started at least one article (diff later). Do you have any evidence of what most would consider to be harrassment? Cla68 (talk) 22:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, there's one, still looking through contribs. Wizardman 22:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing that's a response to SlimVirgin's request and not Cla68, since the diff appears to be a productive edit, and I can see nothing harassing about it. alanyst 22:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Yup, that was a response to SlimVirgin. She asked for diffs, so I provided one. To be fair she asked for diffs, plural. So, here's a few more: Wizardman 22:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you kidding? "He was blocked because he posts at WR". Better pull out the banhammer then, more than a few administrators post at that site. How about "for what they do/don't do", not "who they associate with, and what 'we' think of their association". I realize it is de rigeur to play the "WR=Troll" card, but it really looks nothing more than petty when stated so clearly. Achromatic (talk) 04:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC) Struck as a result of misreading Bstone. My sheepish apologies. Achromatic (talk) 04:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I meant some hyperbole, but they are using his activities in WR to justify the continued block. Bstone (talk) 05:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) I think at this stage it would be more useful if diffs of clear cut harassment were supplied to back up the block. Arguments have been stated expressing that the block should be removed, so evidence refuting these arguments should be supplied. If none can be produced, then an unblock is clearly in order. Remember - anyone unblocked can be reblocked, and its unlikely anyone will die in the meantime. 22:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This block was already challenged and upheld.:

Decline reason: "I don't know about the overstock.com issue, but your stalking page User:Piperdown/1 was unacceptable, and is not less so because another user may have created a similar page. Your personal attacks on the blocking admin do not help to persuade me that you have understood what you did wrong and that you will stop doing it when unblocked. — Sandstein 06:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit fuzzy as to what has changed since then. In fact, his personal attacks on me and other editors off-site certainly don't indicate that he has any kind of deeper understanding that what he did was wrong.--Samiharris (talk) 22:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

"Consensus can change"... right? If there is new information, anyway? ++Lar: t/c 04:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

And that decision is sovereign and not subject to community review? I think not. Notice that there are many voices chiming in here all saying that there is not enough evidence to show that an indef block is appropriate. Unblock this fellow and let's be done with this drama. Bstone (talk) 22:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know enough about this situation to say whether anyone should be unblocked or not, but the "similar page" to which the reviewing admin refers, has been up since June of last year, even though such pages are "unacceptable". R. Baley (talk) 22:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That page was a collection of diffs, Piperdown's own words. Piperdown responded with an attack page. It was deleted so I can't quote from it. Bstone, you don't have any inkling of the "evidence" so how can you say it was "insufficient"? Why the rush to unblock this character?--Samiharris (talk) 22:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

With a total lack of incriminating evidence, a request from the editor to be allowed to edit and a viewable and demonstratable history of good editing and you want me to side with you on keeping the indef block? Sorry, but judisprudence requires the liberation of the person. Bstone (talk) 23:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sami, the only allowable circumstance (AFAIK) in which one editor may keep a collection of diffs (or otherwise collect "evidence") on another editor is in a short term situation where there is a forthcoming process to be initiated (such as preparing for an ANI report, filing an RfAR, or starting an RfC on an editor) otherwise it isn't allowed. That page should have been deleted as well a long time ago. R. Baley (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems that the evidence page was overtaken by events. Bstone, sorry but nowhere in the Bill of Rights does it talk about "life, liberty and the pursuit of editing Misplaced Pages." Piperdown seems plenty liberated right where he is, which is in the pages of off-site websites where he can give full vent to his conspiracy theories as relates to the stock market and Misplaced Pages. and where he can now openly advocate WordBomb's cause.--Samiharris (talk) 23:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

So without any evidence and with a history of good editing this fellow should remain blocked on your say so? That's a travesty. Bstone (talk) 23:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

He was not blocked on my sayso. I had nothing to do with it, or in his remaining blocked, or in his becoming an active and vibrant representative of the WordBomb Chowder and Marching Society off-wiki. He was blocked by Mr. Gerard, and I think it behooves us all to await his return. It is not a travesty of anything to do so, and the Bill of Rights will survive if Mr. Piperdown remains blocked in the interim.--Samiharris (talk) 23:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

You mis understand, Samiharris. I never said he was blocked because of you but you are the one pressing for his continued block, but without a shred of evidence. Sans evidence or Mr Gerard, it behooves us to immediately unblock him and allow him to return to editing wikipedia. What he does off-site is not any of our business and I urge you to stop worrying what people do with their time outside this project. Bstone (talk) 23:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Without commenting on the merits of an unblock, this editor has been blocked for nearly 4 months. There's no sudden urgency to unblock him "immediately". Surely we can wait for a bit more community input, or even for the blocking admin to comment? MastCell 00:20, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It can go both ways, tho. 4 months of injustice, as I see it, and now any lack of incriminating evidence would mean an immediate unblock would be prudent. But I think taking a step back at this point would be wise. Say 48 hours to wait for Mr Gerard? Bstone (talk) 00:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Uh, no, sorry. This is not up for general review. Meatpuppets of known extremely banned users don't get the benefit of the doubt. And non admins don't get to come to AN and insist that admins comply with their idea of justice.

If someone has good evidence that this was a mistake, then they should have posted it here. Nobody has. Lacking that good evidence, this is functionally (if not labeled properly) a community ban. The appeal process for community bans is Arbcom, or Jimmy. Neither of those venues are particularly happy with Bagley and companies ongoing hijinks, but they will listen to an appeal request. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Except Admins (such as Alison and myself) may have problems with it (Alison has said she's reviewing the situation, and personally I haven't looked at it). I find your dismissiveness a bit disturbing, GWH. If there is good reason for the block, present it, and if it's agreed that it fits, fine, we'll get out of your way. But don't try steamrolling folks who have honest concerns. Also. Don't try calling it a community ban, and then say the community shouldn't come in and have their say about it (added On) SirFozzie (talk) 01:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The good reason for the block is why he was blocked - editing related to naked short selling, in patterns and with content that clearly passes the duck test on association with Wordbomb / Bagley / Overstock. Yes, they edited other stuff, too. But there is quite clearly a major focus of editing on those topics, and even a brief review of their edits (to the naked short selling article, to biography articles of people accused of naked short selling, etc) will show that the patterns there are identical to the ones that are Wordbomb signature, and have resulted in quite a large number of sockpuppet/meatpuppet accounts to be banned from the site.

This is not new, and not news. That Wordbomb related accounts are banned from Misplaced Pages due to innumerable abuses from Overstock people is not new, and not news. Any cursory review of the last 500 edits by Piperdown (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) shows a clear pattern of that type and content of edit. The duck quacks, and it does not quack alone in a field where nobody notices. It quacks in the usual place, with the usual suspects.

The duck is not welcome. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Also - on the community ban / input point - a community ban ends when an administrator (any administrator) unblocks. Per definition. It does not end when a random user account, who I AGF about but is not an administrator, insists that it must. Bstone does not have standing to insist on an unblock, though he can of course comment and request etc. Any administrator on this thread can simply unblock. However, I hope that they review the contributions history and consider what's there. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

{outdent) WP:MEAT applies to new editors, not editors who are with the project for 7 months. -- Kendrick7 01:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I am going to have to back up SirFozzie's reasoning here, and while I have not looked into the block or the edits, I did take a look at both /1 pages and have to echo Alsisons question - why are they so different that one got someone indef blocked and the other hung around on WP for ages? As a WR member I have had contact with piperdown, and have to say, that if he is a sock of wordbomb, that pretense has gone on waaaaaaaaaaaay longer than it had to - making it unlikley that he was ever a sock. The word meatpuppet has also been bandied about, but I find it hard to work out how an established editor can be a meatpuppet. It seems to me that some people might actually just come to the same conclusion, either independantly or through communication, thereby holding their own views that happen to overlap? Independant thought, now there is a novel concept. Viridae 01:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

There's an extensive history of sockpuppetry / meatpuppetry associated with Wordbomb / overstock accounts. Figuring out who a person is and what the connection is are interesting intellectual exercises, but not necessary - WP:DUCK is behavioral based, and the behavior pattern here matched. Contrary to you and Kendrick's assertions, Sockpuppetry and Meatpuppetry are what they are, established user or not. We ban established accounts for acting as an agent for / reposting stuff for indef blocked accounts. Meatpuppetry is a more subtle version of that. Anyone can start doing that on behalf of a banned user. And an alternate identity sockpuppet is clearly not beyond these people - they've done it a lot before, and are probably, nay almost certainly doing it now with other accounts we have not yet tagged. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Georgewilliamherbert, I just need to say that your dismissive, condescending attitude to non-admins only furthers to widen the gap between admins and regular editors. You were given tools to help the project but not a platform of power. Your attitude is profoundly disturbing. Bstone (talk) 02:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Bstone, please keep the discussion civil and focused on the case at hand, and either ignore attitudes that rub you the wrong way or take your concerns up on the person's talk page. We don't need this to generate unwarranted heat. alanyst 03:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, civility is of paramount importance. Which is why I stand to is at all times. Bstone (talk) 03:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Without speaking to the merits of this particular case, it seems to me that if several trusted and informed editors are dubious about the conclusions drawn, then the WP:DUCK test is by definition not met, no matter how convincing others may find it. The duck-spotter should always be willing to show that they have not mistakenly identified a loon or other fowl creature, if a colleague asks in good faith for such assurance. alanyst 03:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Non admins are as welcome as anyone to point out questionable actions, provide evidence, etc.

To date, you have posted no evidence that Piperdown isn't who David Gerard thought he was. Nobody has yet refuted the point that hundreds of the last 500 edits made by Piperdown fit the Wordbomb edit profile to a T.

Perhaps, despite that, they are in fact someone else and unrelated. However, WP:DUCK establishes a reasonableness test and then shifts burden of proof. We have a historical pattern used repeatedly by ... I don't know exactly how many by now, but I've seen dozens of Wordbomb sockpuppets over time. A large quantity of Piperdown edits match that pattern. Duck test's criteria are met.

This is a rebutable conclusion. But it's a reasonable conclusion, based on the evidence. Any administrator who seeks to overturn the indef block should generate reasonable evidence to rebut that conclusion first.

The observation that you don't have the authority to declare what jurisprudence demands we do ("Sorry, but judisprudence requires the liberation of the person." as you said earlier) is perhaps rude but it's also very importantly correct. Misplaced Pages doesn't allow just anyone, even just anyone who's a longstanding editor, to make user block decisions (in either direction). That power is reserved for administrators, with appeal to the body of administrators as a whole, the Arbitration Committee, and Jimbo ultimately.

It would be foolish for me or anyone to declare that abusive user blocking never makes mistakes. I have myself made mistakes doing so. Being open to the possibility that a given action (mine, or someone elses) is wrong is an important part of being a responsible administrator.

All of that said, nothing that's been posted here so far has positive information content that changes my mind that the earlier conclusion was correct, that Piperdown is either Wordbomb or acting in concert with them. A couple of people who frequent Misplaced Pages Review have indicated that they think that Piperdown is not, based on discussions with them over there. However, those opinions don't have any specific WR discussion posts or thread links provided, and haven't addressed the edit patterns here which were the Duck test evidence.

Perhaps we'll have such evidence tomorrow. If Alison or Viridae or you or others post it, I will read it and consider it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

On the face of it, he has a lot of productive edits. What kind of evidence should we have? Are we trying to prove a negative? Can you prove I'm not related to Wordbomb? If I was blocked for this reason, could anyone prove I'm not? Cool Hand Luke 04:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:DUCK does not require anyone who opposes a block to take the (impossible) step of proving a negative. It's one thing if only a few people are disagreeing. But as Alanyst says, you can't just declare "WP:DUCK, prove me wrong or go away".

You have very few edits that appear to match the Wordbomb pattern: Naked short selling, Pump and dump, Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation‎, Overstock.com and related topics are the predominant targets, though you have cleaned up Patrick M. Byrne a bit in the last few days, which is also involved. I don't think anyone could reasonably claim based on your edit patterns that you might be WB. The same cannot be said of Piperdown (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), who though they have also edited diverse topics, on first impression appear to be about 50% contributing to Wordbomb target articles (those articles listed, articles about people associated with short selling, etc). People who only contribute tangentally if at all to the target topics associated with Wordbomb, and don't otherwise go on overstock.com related rampages in article or user talk or emails, are rather unlikely to be an active Wordbomb sock, though there are probably some sleepers out there which wouldn't be detectable by the Duck test at the moment.

As I said upwards - Piperdown could be a false positive on the Duck test for Wordbomb. But, hundreds of edits by them fall into the pattern, and it's really really suspicious. Just look at the last 500 edits in history, much less going back further.

We could run a whole stack of sample users through "prove or disprove that they're X", but there aren't many that have the problematic contribution histories which are very short selling centric as to match Wordbomb's pattern. Piperdown does. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:20, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be very big on "you don't get to say what has to happen, that's for us administrators". The community has a voice. The community decides. The community does (be it as a whole, or subsections thereof). You take this approach, and then you start to state that if people have evidence, you will "read and consider it". Consider rewording, as your tone and phrasing implies that the decision is yours to make. You name administrators, and state that they may supply evidence for your consideration. The duck test is inconclusive, especially when there seems to be something very far from consensus here. It is not a crime of meatpuppetry to hold similar opinions to that of a banned user. Out of curiosity, what is an "extremely banned" user? Is that like, with apologies to A Few Good Men a "strenuous objection"? Achromatic (talk) 04:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Similar opinions didn't get Piperdown in trouble. Plenty of people don't like short selling. Piperdown edited on first glance about a dozen articles in the topic in the same manner, and with the same intensity, that Wordbomb and other confirmed WB socks did. Walks like a duck.

Extremely banned would cover things like creating a website dedicated to, among other things, stalking and harrassing Misplaced Pages editors and administrators, including trying to harrass them at home and at work. Wordbomb and related overstock.com staff are not welcome here. You are welcome to talk to Arbcom or Jimmy about it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

George care to provide actual examples where Piperdown edited "In the same manner as wordbomb"? That would certainly give weight to your accusations. Viridae 04:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) They are contributing 50% to "WordBomb target articles" (which, as you say, means "articles related to naked short selling"). Are we really banning people for having similar interests to banned users? Or is there only one person in the world who cares about naked short selling? -Amarkov moo! 04:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

To the same set of articles, if their edits appear to be of the same nature? And also being an active Misplaced Pages Review participant? That's what the Duck test definition is, pretty much. It's established policy... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

When Piperdown started editing naked short selling, which was within a few days of arriving at Misplaced Pages, he immediately started edit warring and was belligerent in the extreme. It is not as if a light bulb went on over his head after he had been pacifically editing for some months. He immediately commenced edits that misconstrued sources to twist to his POV. He also was paranoid in the extreme. I remember praising some edits that he did and getting my head bit off on the grounds that I was being "patronizing" or somesuch. In hindsight he is about as obvious a WordBomb meatpuppet as can be imagined. He then attacked me in his attack page, and alleged that I had some connection with a journalist he hates because of clues of a relationship with Chicago, which is where the journalist went to school. It was paranoid, loony stuff and it is a wonder that Piperdown remained unscathed for as long as he did. He was not just quacking like the duck WordBomb but leaving droppings all over the place.--Samiharris (talk) 04:33, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not like all new users are nice. There are many new users who edit war and are belligerent. In fact, that's probably evidence that he was actually new, since someone familiar with Misplaced Pages would know how to avoid being viewed as bad. As for Misplaced Pages Review... that's really not relevant. Unless someone has evidence that I'm a sockpuppet? -Amarkov moo! 04:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

That he complains on WR seems to be a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, unfortunately. He was blocked on September 7, 2007; his WR account was created three days later on September 10. Frustrated people often feel the need to vent, and it looks like Piperdown, like many other Wikipedians who feel sleighted, found WR in the wake of his block and decided to vent there. It's a bit of a shame, since there's really nowhere else for them to appeal and take legitimate complaints to, and they get lost in the muck of frivolous accusations and poisonous speculation that is WR. krimpet✽ 05:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

(Another outdent.) The problem with WP:DUCK (which is an essay, neither guideline nor policy) is that it is highly susceptible to confirmation bias: we tend to see what we expect to see and unconsciously ignore or discount evidence to the contrary. If there were a person who shared WordBomb's views on naked short selling, etc. but was trying to constructively contribute to WP, how would we distinguish them from a WordBomb meatpuppet? Aside from the common interest, what criteria would separate the block-worthy from the barnstar-worthy? Can anyone show, with diffs, that a significant number of Piperdown's edits would have been found disruptive if they had been about 18th-century poetry instead of Overstock-related matters? If so, I'm all for maintaining the block, but if not, it seems reasonable to offer another chance at contributing constructively. I'll be honest, what I've seen of Piperdown's comments on WR worry me about inviting a mud-slinger here where too much mud is already slung - but perhaps Piperdown will resolve to interact differently here given the different environment and purpose. I'm sure plenty of people will keep a close eye on him in case he proves to be here to disrupt. alanyst 04:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Just how is one supposed to wind up with a NPOV article on naked short selling if one side of the debate on it is declared to be "acting for a banned user" and forbidden? *Dan T.* (talk) 04:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Every Misplaced Pages editor should be capable of writing articles with the neutral point of view. We don't need active Neo-nazi editors in order to write an NPOV article on Adolf Hitler. There are plenty of press reports on naked short selling to summarize, personal knowledge or viewpoints aren't required. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The pattern is not "just editing naked short selling". Piperdown's edits on Overstock related topics in a wider sense are the rest of the pattern. By no means has every editor involved in the Naked short selling article done anything like other Overstock related edits which raise suspicions. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Piperdown questionable edits

Section break, and new section to list out Wordbomb pattern edits ... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

So... going back through Piperdown's history. I decided to start at the beginning and work forwards.

A week after signing up, this first edit to Naked short selling, the first in the Wordbomb pattern as far as I spot: restores a Christopher Cox quote that had been added by Errudite (sic) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) earlier that day, which has been specifically added by a bunch of Wordbomb sockpuppets. On closer examination, Errudiate (sic) proves to be an shiningly clear example of Wordbomb sockpuppets, and not previously identified as such and blocked - however, I have just rectified that.

Three edits later, to Patrick M. Byrne - , again a link Wordbomb's used before.

More to come, later. Others welcome. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Wait wait. So, when looking at this evidence you've seen before, you run into another sockpuppet? Does it occur to you that it's far more likely that your sockpuppet detection method is faulty? It's reasonable that most people interested in naked short selling read the same stuff... -Amarkov moo! 05:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Did you actually review Errudite (sic)'s edits? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have. I fail to see how they can be reliably differentiated from edits by someone else who doesn't like Gary Weiss. -Amarkov moo! 05:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The only people with a serious beef against Gary Weiss who've showed up on Misplaced Pages are Wordbomb and his gang. It's not normal for people in the world to have large beefs with financial reporters. Your comment doesn't make the case that they're not in the pattern... it reinforces it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Except the only reason you have to believe this is that everyone who dislikes Gary Weiss has been discredited as being in WordBomb's gang. That's circular logic, which does not help. -Amarkov moo! 05:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

So because he restores a section of text he believes to be valid he is immediatley a meatpuppet. Its not possible of course that he actually agreed with the addition of that text, not necessarily knowing that it was a (possible) sockpuppet? And I am still waiting for evidence of him editing "In the same manner as wordbomb", not just having an overlap in idealogies... Viridae 05:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to sign off for the night, but jeez. They have over 1500 edits. I presented two examples in the pattern (not necessarily by themselves conclusive, but in the pattern) in the first fifty edits they ever made. Properly documenting everything that Piperdown did that matches the Wordbomb pattern will undoubtedly take dozens to hundreds of specific edits listed, and probably a day or two of people digging and listing them. If your point is that I have not yet established the case with what I posted here then that's fine. That will take time. If you don't think it's there because it wasn't evident and clear looking only at the first 3% of their contributions so far ... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Notice the huge chorus of community members who are challenging and questioning the validity of this. I add my voice to this growing number. Bstone (talk) 05:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we got that Bstone.

I think Georgewilliamherbert's point is that editing on these topics is inherently unlike, say, editing from a stridently pro-Palestinian position. Many people in the world have the same POV as stridently pro-Palestine banned users, but WordBombesque opinions on Byrne and naked short selling are relatively much more likely to be coming from Overstock.com or its agents. As an empirical matter, I suspect this is true. I'm not sure if that's a good enough reason for a ban though. Cool Hand Luke 05:30, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

His edits on Misplaced Pages Review confirm that. I'm not suggesting they be used to justify the continued ban, as I don't think it is necessary. But it is worth observing that Piperdown is one of the most off the wall, paranoid contributors to Wiki Review, and it's always "Weiss this" and "Weiss that," and how "Weiss" is the source of all that ails Misplaced Pages. If there was any doubt that he was a WordBomb meatpuppet he allayed those doubts after he left here.--Samiharris (talk) 05:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

You're still only giving evidence that he really hates Weiss. That's certainly true, but that doesn't make him WordBomb. -Amarkov

OK, granted. Maybe he hates Weiss because he was involved in an auto accident with him, and just by coincidence also happens to be obsessed with naked short selling. Let's get real about this.--Samiharris (talk) 05:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

moo! 05:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

His account on WR postdates his ban from WP. WP:CIVIL or not (and without implying that WP policies carry any weight elsewhere), it would seem to be an entirely human failing to have some anger towards someone you might see (be it correctly or incorrectly) as having played a role in your being banned (and I qualify that by saying that my statement in no way implies Piperdown's blocking/edits at the time were or were not controversial). Also, I'd like to point out that, with exceptionally few exceptions, Piperdown's comments off-wiki have very little relevance here, as a matter of policy, and it is inappropriate to refer to his off-wiki behavior (because, if for no other reason, you have no idea that they are one in the same, though I'm happy to acknowledge that they are, the principle does not change) as justifications for an on-wiki block to continue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Achromatic (talk • contribs) 06:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

There is zero controversy that meat puppetry on behalf of banned editors has been something that invariably earns the meat puppet a ban. This has remained true for the 3 + years I've been contributing to Misplaced Pages. The only question is whether it is reasonable to view Piperdown as a meat puppet of Wordbomb. Most of those commenting here weren't even around when WordBomb participated here and was blocked, but I was and remember him well. And viewing the editing patterns of Piperdown, it appears likely to me that Piperdown is indeed a meat puppet of Wordbomb. That being so, I feel that the block was not only reasonable but necessary given our policy and convention on bans and meat puppetry and support the block of Piperdown. FeloniousMonk (talk) 05:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This "meat puppet" claim is really bothering me. What does it even mean to be a meat puppet of someone gone for 10 months? It seems to mean merely that the user shares a POV and that we can't prove they're a sock puppet. There may be good reason to infer that such a user has a COI with regards to the subjects (see my comment above), but we're not banning them for meat puppetry per se. Cool Hand Luke 05:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

That's not quite what happened in this instance. He was blocked for being a meatpuppet of a banned user who continually re-appeared for many months on Misplaced Pages via several dozen socks. I believe there were about 40 checkuser-confirmed socks and an larger number of suspected ones, all blocked. There are quite a few others blocked for being WordBomb socks who are not on the list. This was not a situation in which one errant fellow was banned and then some poor slob was accused of being like him ten months later. This was a protracted situation over a period of many months.--Samiharris (talk) 05:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

So, because WordBomb had many sockpuppets, it logically follows that anyone who shares his views must also be a sockpuppet? What? I mean, that shows that the accusation is not unreasonable, but it is by no means proof. -Amarkov moo! 06:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree that his block was reasonable. For further details on the block, you will have to await Mr. Gerard. All you can get from me is my worm's eye view.--Samiharris (talk) 06:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Um, no, that's not what I said. It is reasonable to accuse him of being WordBomb, in the sense that it would be unreasonable to accuse him of being the Roswell space aliens. I have seen no reason to believe that the actual block was justified, because nobody has any reasons other than "but look, they share the same opinions!" If you think David will have better reasons, by all means wait for him. -Amarkov moo! 06:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if anyone's considered this, but if he's editing productively, does it even matter if the person behind the account was Wordbomb? Yes, I know what WordBomb did. But that would assume the two are one and the same, and I am unconvinced - the "evidence" provided for Piperdown being a sock of WB is really shitty evidence, and Piperdown should be unblocked. By all means keep an eye on his editng and if he acts up, take action then. Neıl ☎ 10:55, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll second that, and repeat what I said above: Felonious et al. are misunderstanding WP:MEAT and need to reread the policy. A new user who engages in the same behavior as another user in the same context, and who appears to be editing Misplaced Pages solely for that purpose, shall be subject to the remedies applied to the user whose behavior they are joining. Simply making the acquaintance of a banned user isn't a reasonable excuse for an indef block, nor simply being an editor with a POV on naked short selling different from the WP:OWNers of that article, for that matter, who seem to find being able to declare any such editor a sock or meatpuppet of Wordbomb a little too convenient. -- Kendrick7 17:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no opinion either way on naked short selling. Wordbomb and overstock.com related accounts are not welcome here due to an obscene amount of corporate sponsored attacks on Misplaced Pages editors and other related abuse. There's nothing wrong with being against naked short selling and editing Misplaced Pages in a policy compliant manner to address that, which other editors have in fact done. When the pattern jumps out at you, of overstock.com plus naked short selling plus Byrne article edits, that's not a random opponent of naked short selling, that's someone associated with Wordbomb. And we block them. Making up false red herrings like "everyone who is against naked short selling is accused of being a Wordbomb sock" is just confusing the issue - I don't believe that statement, I have never heard anyone else who's blocked Wordbomb accounts make that statement, and I don't believe they believe it either.

Let's stick with the facts - there's a pattern which ties edit patterns across a wide set of topics together, which is distinctive and unique to Overstock.com and Wordbomb. Dozens, perhaps a hundred or more, accounts matched this pattern. Many of them were using IP addresses inside Overstock.com or in netblocks of homes in the area of its headquarters. Some of them are further afield, but display the exact same edit patterns. This account displays those edit patterns. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Those three articles are intricately linked; this isn't some divine coincidence indicating a "pattern" which should "jump out" at anyone. Patrick M. Byrne is the CEO of Overstock.com, whose article is 2/3s about a controversy over naked short selling, which article also mentions and links back to Byrne and Overstock. Dozens if not hundreds have edited all three articles which relate to a current event an {{ongoing lawsuit}}, you say? I'm completely and totally unshocked. Running around blocking any editor no matter how long they've been with the project because you think they're all the same person, or friends of some person, who got indef blocked within their first 24 hours for violating WP:NPA a long long time ago? If that's not due to POV pushing, then it's extreme paranoia. -- Kendrick7 20:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Wordbomb is indef blocked for a whole host of reasons including real-world stalking and harrassment, creating a Misplaced Pages editor stalking website, and dozens of checkuser confirmed sockpuppet accounts. Defending him is bizarre and inexplicable. Any account which is associated with him is most certainly not welcome.

Yes, there's a topical linkage. However, contrary to your assertion that it's natural for people to edit the different articles innocently, the vast majority of those who have edited across the set of articles corresponding to Wordbomb's fingerprint have been proven, by Checkuser or self-admission later on, to have been sockpuppets or in a few cases meatpuppets. We did not leap to this conclusion. We have years of evidence that the pattern is used by WB and essentially nobody else. People who are interested in financial matters and aren't WB have made similar edits across smaller sets of articles, but haven't matched the whole identifying pattern.

Piperdown does.

I reinterate - I have no interest in or position on naked short selling or the financial industry/articles in general. I have a strong interest in keeping Misplaced Pages free of highly abusive accounts and people. I have never been engaged in an edit war or user argument with Wordbomb. But I've seen what he does here and on WR, and elsewhere. And if he pops up, like any responsible administrator aware of what all he's been doing, I block him.

He and Overstock may turn out to have been entirely right about the financial industry ills associated with naked short selling. Even if they are, however, nothing in the world could excuse their grossly abusive behavior towards Misplaced Pages and Wikipedians. They are not banned because of any conclusion as to the merits of their position on the issue. They're banned because they behave sociopathically and abusively towards editors here, tracking down real names, calling their homes, their employers, their friends, trying to get them fired, urging others to stalk them in real life, threatening violence, etc.

This behavior is categorically not ok. It is not "indef blocked for violating NPA". This case is the single worst case, ongoing and sustained and widespread, of abuse of Misplaced Pages editors by a particular outside group. Defending Wordbomb is not OK.

Piperdown could be an innocent mistaken identity case in this. But his behavior on Misplaced Pages Review didn't convince me of that.

The magnitude of the situation absolutely calls for us to apply special attention and care, but also a firm hand to exclude Wordbomb. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Wordbomb mess is an object lesson in WP:BITE. Because he didn't know any better than to just take his concerns to WP:COI/N, he was instead indef blocked and his talk page protected so he could never appeal, and thus we created a rather stalwart enemy of the project, and yeah, all kinds of badness has occurred since. I don't think it had to be that way, though. But, so because of all that, now here, in this apparently unrelated matter, we've taken a perfectly fine editor, indef blocked him on the most tenuous of rationales, and driven him into the arms of our critics at Misplaced Pages Review, thus making him guilty of association after the fact. Trying to make Wordbomb out to be the Emmanuel Goldstein of Misplaced Pages, and thus tar User:Piperdown with the same wide brush is more of the same, because trying to make this all about some other editor misses the point that Piperdown doesn't seem to have actually done any of those dreadful things. Thus you're argument -- and in particular the lack of diffs -- have failed to convince me. -- Kendrick7 23:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

That is a bizarre and historically inaccurate interpretation of how Wordbomb got blocked. People who are ignorant of history might want to not assert stuff about it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking at his WR posts, it seems he might have conflicts with Samiharris, Mantanmoreland, other editors he accuses of sockpuppetry, and David Gerard. After a careful look at his many productive contributions, I support an unblock, but he should have a civility parole in place. He should understand that we won't tolerate personal attacks or idle accusations of non-abusive sockpuppetry. Cool Hand Luke 17:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds fair and reasonable. I assume Alison is still waiting for a response from Gerard. I hope she will post a follow-up here on what action was taken or not taken. Thanks everyone. Cla68 (talk) 20:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

That's about as likely to work as bringing Willy on Wheels back on Misplaced Pages on page move parole. — Save_Us † 23:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, geez, you can't discount his expertise! -- Kendrick7 ON WHEELS! 23:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

If it doesn't work, there's nothing stopping us from re-blocking. And since there are people with significant concerns about the initial block, it's worth a try. -Amarkov moo! 23:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Denial of speedy's by User:Jayron32

Can someone please review some of the speedy's denied by Jayron. There seems to be a large number of clear cut case's which as denied , I've listed 2 below

• Bear beer bowl doughnut listed as nonsense , would tend to agree
• Féile na nGael clear cut case of copyvio.

From article The competition hosts approximately 25,000 boys and girls each year with all 32 GAA counties represented along with teams from London GAA and Warwickshire GAA.

When the preliminary competition is completed in each county, the winning club then travels to the host county or Provincial councils where they are hosted by families and engage the host club in hurling, camogie and handball games. Since 1971 over 1 million boys and girls have participated in this great festival.

From website Each year some 25,000 boys and girls take part in this festival in all 32 counties. London and Warwickshire also participate in this festival. When the preliminary competition is completed in each county, the winning club then travels to the host county or province where they are hosted by families and engage the host club in hurling, camogie and handball games. Since 1971 over 1 million boys and girls have participated in this great festival.Gnevin (talk) 08:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'd agree on Féile na nGael, a copyvio doesn't need to be exactly literal in order to be a copyvio. But somebody is now taking care of it by rewriting, which is of course better than deletion. I've prod'ed the other, won't object to somebody else speedying. Jayron is formally right on that one; the "blatant nonsense" clause is rather narrow. Although a bit of IAR wouldn't have hurt here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Doesn't Copyvio have to be deleted from the history also, not just removed from the article? Gnevin (talk) 08:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Nah, not necessarily. We'd have a lot of work if we wanted to do that to all plagiarized revisions that get added here or there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Ok would just tidied up and removed the copyvio myself if I had of known that,Thanks you've been most helpful Gnevin (talk) 09:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
    • If an article is a copyright violation from the very first revision, it should be deleted. (It's possible to rewrite in place, but one must rewrite from scratch. Using the prior content in any way creates a derivative work, which is still a copyright violation. The {{copyvio}} template directs rewrites to a new page where new articles can be started from scratch. This is the safest and the recommended way to do a rewrite.) If there is an earlier non-infringing version, it should be reverted. See User:Uncle G/Wikipedia triage and Misplaced Pages:Copyright violations. Uncle G (talk) 11:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
      • While I agree with Jayron32 that speedy deletion of Féile na nGael was a close call, I have deleted the history revisions prior to the rewrite, just in case. I believe this solution meets the requirements Uncle G has set forth as well. Review welcome, as always. — Satori Son 16:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• I tend to be conservative at times in my speedy deletion assessments. I have speedy deleted plenty of articles, but the speedy deletion criteria are fairly narrowly defined. For example, I deny many A7 claims because A7 is specifically written for articles where no assertion of importance is claimed. Where an article asserts that "Megadynocorp is the industry leader in widget production in the East-Midlands region", well, that is a clear assertion of importance. It claims a place as an industry leader. Whether such statements amount to Misplaced Pages's definition of notability is debatable, which is why there is a forum in which to have that debate. A7 specificly exempts "notability" concerns as a reason for deletion, claims of importance are not the same as proof of notability. Likewise, the other criteria are specifically written as narrow as possible. G1, Patent Nonsense, the criteria that the Beer Pong Whatever game was tagged under, is specifically for gibberish or otherwise incoherant articles. The article was perfectly coherant. It was entirely in violation of WP:NFT, however, NFT is not a speedy deletion criteria. There are other venues to get articles deleted, and a denial of a speedy deletion IS NOT THE EQUIVALENT OF A KEEP VOTE BY THE ADMIN. I am not saying that these articles are worth keeping at Misplaced Pages, however the speedy deletion process is not equiped to deal with them. Even apparent NFT articles could turn up sources at some point. As far as the copyvio criteria, I have always taken the idea of "blatant copyright" (and that is the word in G12, "blatant") to mean a straight cut-and-paste text job. If an article is paraphrased from another source, and such a paraphrase represents a questionable use of copyright, well, its the kind of thing that requires interpretation of the reader to say how close the text is or isn't to the source text. That doesn't sound blatant. Its open for interpretation, which again, is why we have places for said debates to go on. For me, that there are 2 other deletion processes in place, means that there is less harm in keeping a borderline case than deleting it. If its borderline, then having a discussion as to which side of the border it lies is appropriate... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Very well stated, Jayron. I've been doing a bit of CSD myself, and it's a lot tougher than it looks on the surface. Either the article's creator is going to blast your talkpage, or the article's nominator. It's better to err on the side of keeping with an explicit edit summary that says exactly why it's not speedy and exactly where the nominator should bring it. Keeper | 76 17:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Bear beer bowl doughnut was tricky--I too almost deleted it as nonsense, but I decided to see if anyone else would do it. Borderline, and deleting or declining equally reasonable. An AfD would have given a quick snow delete, as an alternative. The question is more that if one admin explicitly declines, should another admin speedy it? I do not think so. DGG (talk) 21:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Strictly construed, I don't believe bear beer etc. was speedy-able except as an "IAR speedy" - it wasn't nonsense, it was just a clear violation of WP:NFT, which is currently not a speedy deletion criterion. I certainly wouldn't object to adding NFT (in some form) as a speedy criterion, as it's among the most common "wish I could speedy-tag this, but I'll prod it instead" circumstances I encounter when new-page patrolling. I assume it's been brought up before on WT:CSD, though. JavaTenor (talk) 22:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I should note that getting a new CSD is about as hard as teaching a fish to ride a bicycle some times; for example I proposed that non-notable products be added to the A7 criteria, and it was completely shot down. Thus we are left with the strange situation that a company's article can be deleted as A7, but products and services provided BY that company can't, and stick around for 5 days under PROD or AFD. Is it ideal, no, but for CSD to be legitimate it must be enforced as currently written. When the criteria change to include articles like the beer bear whatever article, you will find me speedy deleting faster than you can type "db", but until then, I am constrained by the criteria. And, per its own instruction, sometimes I ignore WP:IAR, where appropriate. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 07:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I've observed that many of the regular speedy nominators, and a number of the admins who handle CSD, take a somewhat expansive interpretation of the speedy criteria. Is this a good thing? Gimmetrow 00:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Page protection

Anyone noticed that protecting a page has two expiries?? Is this an error??

I noticed it when I used the latest version, 1.44.0-wmf.8 (f08e6b3), as used here.

Thanks, --Solumeiras (talk) 16:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I just looked at the protection page and can only see one. You may want to check out WP:VPT. Nakon 17:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Well, on the SVN downloaded version, it showed two! --Solumeiras (talk) 17:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• • What Nakon meant to say was that issues of a technical nature are not really the specialty of admins; since this seems to be a software-related issue, the appropriate place to ask this question would be at the Technical page at the Village Pump. Someone there will be able to understand what is going on, and may be able to answer your question, and possibly fix the problem. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Or you don't want to confuse Misplaced Pages with the software it uses. I suggest you head over to The mediawiki website and ask question about the software there. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 20:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Semi-automated tagging of Shared IP Addresses

Betacommand has requested that I post for community discussion about a bot that I just proposed, called IPTaggerBot. If you are interested in commenting on the subject, please review the bot approval request at Misplaced Pages:Bots/Requests for approval/IPTaggerBot as well as the bot's userpage at User:IPTaggerBot. Thank you. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 17:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Surely this should also be somewhere like the village pump if you want broader community input? --81.104.39.63 (talk) 20:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps so; I will post it there as well. Thank you for the input. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 20:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I know there was at some point a bot which would tag IP talk pages it recognized as being attached to schools; seemed quite helpful, and worked off WHOIS information in such a way that I don't recall ever seeing a false positive. Not sure who ran it or much about how, unfortunately. Would this be checking each time an IP edits, each time an IP gets a talk page message, each time a new IP talk page is created, each time an IP is blocked, run in batches, or some such? Major concern is probably accuracy, but provided that can be resolved pretty well, this seems like a generally good idea to me. – Luna Santin (talk) 07:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

bogus nom

I think young Agentperson (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is playing games here - and see his edit history. He's had a few warnings about other vandalisms - might be time for something stronger. And while we're at it, isn't "USERNAME" a problematic username? Tvoz |talk 19:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

If he was, he played the game in SEPTEMBER 2006!!! Look at the dates. The recent heath ledger vandalism is bothersome, but the test RFA page is so old it's collecting dust. I will delete it presently. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I guess I didn't look at the dates. Sorry.... but at least it's one less page. Tvoz |talk 20:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks like another bad RfA Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Burner0718. Tiptoety 22:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that is a joke, I think it is a new user who is does not understand the ways of Misplaced Pages. Rgoodermote  00:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, i never said it was a joke, but i don't think it is doing any good sitting as a archive. Tiptoety 00:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I wonder. See this one by the same Pookeo9 who started Burner0718, now starting one for himself. At the least, some counseling might be in order. Tvoz |talk 00:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

<undent>Maybe all he needs is a little directing and guidance. Tiptoety 00:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that, anyways I will leave a note on the user's talk page. As I am not an administrator I can not do anything about those noms...but I would suggest keeping them as an example of What Not To Do. Rgoodermote  00:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you know the policy on this?

A user wants his coaching discussion page deleted because he believes his IP could be discovered through it. What's the policy on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Transhumanist (talk • contribs) 23:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

... please see and reply to this discussion.

The Transhumanist 22:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Resolved – no problems --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Resolved – mangojuice got it. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. So I am a bit of a newish admin, and some of the more techincal aspects of autoblocks and rangeblocks still confuse me. This user: appears to have been caught as collateral damage in a range block. I am inclined to believe they had nothing at all to do with the problems that caused the range block. Can a more experienced admin look into this and try to fix it? Thanks a bunch! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The block is on 91.108.192.0/18, and it's a {{checkuserblock}} which means no mortal admin should be undoing it without consulting the checkuser. The user is currently being advised to request an account, so there's little more to be done. -- zzuuzz 19:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate all of the feedback between you and Mangojuice (who has contacted the user and is arranging a username)... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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