Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by PouponOnToast (talk | contribs) at 19:39, 28 January 2008 (→Suggestions for pulling in "experts" from colleges and universities: thanks). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This has all been discussed before: Misplaced Pages:Expert retention, Misplaced Pages:Expert rebellion. Please also see the discussions taking place on the talk page: User talk:Raymond arritt/Expert withdrawal.

Some description of the problem for the uninitiated

This was presented for the benefit of User:Tparameter at the talk page of User:Raymond arritt"

"Expert" was the best shorthand term I could think of for "rational, well-informed person." Although most of the people who have raised issues do have expertise relevant to the topics in which they're editing, they're more than happy to work with well-intentioned novices. I'll gladly help people whose knowledge has some gaps but are coming at an issue in a constructive way (see for example this exchange). It's dealing with aggressive POV-pushers and Kozmik Kadetts who are convinced they have The Truth that gives people fits. Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Tparameter, let's take another example, which is not exactly about "experts". Let's consider the abortion and pregnancy articles. Now we have a few doctors and nurses and choice and right to life advocates who are trying to construct an article or two that show all sides.

And one or two antiabortion editors come to the articles and unilaterally demand that the articles be written as they dictate, ignoring all sources that they dislike and deleting all material that they disagree with. And they are abusive and combative and uncivil and attack others repeatedly who are trying to have articles that include material from both the right to life and the right to choose sides of the argument, and from the medical perspective. They fight frantically to present the articles ONLY from the right to life view. When told about NPOV, they ignore it or twist the words tortuously to get their way. And many other editors give up and leave Misplaced Pages because it is too unpleasant to deal with these anti-abortion editors.

Then finally, RfCs and Arbcomm proceedings are started against the antiabortion editors. But they promise to do better, and get off and then act badly again, and the entire cycle repeats a half dozen times. Finally the anti-abortion editors are blocked, but then plead to come back and are allowed back, and start acting badly again. And more mainstream editors trying to operate within NPOV give up and leave. And to save one troublesome editor who is unwilling or unable to abide by NPOV, we drive off 5 or 10 others who are trying to abide by NPOV.

If there are experts in this picture, it is the doctors and nurses, who are discouraged from editing by these difficult editors. But the principles are the same as on many other articles.

This same behavior goes on over and over. My main concern and Raymond arritt's concern is on pseudoscience articles and science articles. Where one person claims that magic is real and the articles must be rewritten to include magic or else it is patently unfair. And they and their friends demand that science take a back seat in science articles to magic.

And our administrative structure of admins and arbcomm etc are unable or unwilling to do anything about this situation. And they get 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 10th, 20th, 50th, 100th chances to improve and they never improve. And just drive regular productive editors working within NPOV away, and these regular productive NPOV editors are given no 2nd chances as the disruptive trolls, sock puppets, meat puppets, POV warriors and tendentious disruptive editors are.

Is that clearer?--Filll (talk) 02:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Proposal:

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to withdraw from the project.

Discussion

• I agree. In fact, I suggest that we should start a movement where we encourage scientists or pro-science editors to post the above notice or a similar notice on their user pages and talk pages as a signal to a system that is refusing to listen. Comments?--Filll (talk) 05:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I basically agree, but with modifications. How about proposing a one month moratorium? All pro science editors simply stop editng for one month and abandon Misplaced Pages to the mob. If the result doesn't make the front page of the New York Times I'll bet..... It should cause the ArbCom members and Jimbo himself to stop and take notice. They need to take this matter seriously enough to establish an ArbCom Science Committee that can deal with questions like "Is homeopathy pseudoscience?" IOW a high level RfC that has binding consequences and creates policy. Such questions need to be settled. Then methods of effectively and quickly dealing with pushers of fringe POV who violate NPOV need to be developed.

May others propose other wording here? I'd like to see other versions on this page and then we can take a vote and begin to use the one we choose. -- Fyslee / talk 05:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Propose whatever you like. No rules, no deadlines, no preconceived outcomes. This was meant to be open; I'm curious to know the views of other science-oriented editors. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages would go on without experts; it would be qualitatively worse, but it would still be at the top of most Google searches. I can only speak for the U.S., but many of the scientific "controversies" of the day (intelligent design, global warming, medical scams, etc) have their roots in widespread scientific illiteracy. Misplaced Pages is an incredibly powerful medium to counter that illiteracy. I would propose something diametrically opposite: Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to impress upon all of his or her colleagues the importance and value of participating in a medium like Misplaced Pages. Scientists are busy; they have to publish or perish, and ever since - I dunno - 22 January 2001 or so, this country's research investment has shrunk dramatically and it's not easy to keep an investigative career going. Misplaced Pages is free, volunteer work, but the more the inmates appear to be running the asylum, the more important it is for scientists and experts to volunteer their time and put up with the BS. Just my 2 cents - it's late, and I've had a few gin and tonics, so take it with a grain of salt. MastCell 06:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• Motion to move to Citizendium. ~ UBeR (talk) 06:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• The main reason I stay is whatever I write shoots right up to the top of Google. I feel it is my duty as an expert in my field to put accurate information in that spot. But I sure as hell sympathize with you, and my field is not nearly as overrun with kooks and nutjobs as is any one of the sciences. Just my opinion, and I'm no more sober than MastCell. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 06:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Good example of a defeatist attitude. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, that approach would be defeatist. Do you have a proposal for how to address the situation? Or do you feel there is no problem to be addressed? Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Experts should be given some leeway when dealing with topics in which they are well-versed. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Merovingian, I don't see that you are a regular contributor to scientific or healthcare articles, much less controversial ones. In spite of that, as an experienced admin, I'm hoping that you have an angle on this that might be enlightening to us beginners. What is your interest in this matter? -- Fyslee / talk 06:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• No, I am not an expert on anything in particular, not that that should exclude me from this conversation. I believe it is important to retain experts on real-life subjects. This issue should go beyond science, as well. They have the kind of knowledge and experience that is not easily duplicable. Calling for some kind of withdrawal or boycott is naive, frankly. Boycotts do little to help a problem; rather, they prolong any solution. On the contrary, more participation or active lobbying on the part of experts would be more helpful. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• You are definitely welcome. I am hoping you have some suggestions for a solution. These concerns aren't coming out of nowhere. We need some fundamental policy changes and enforcement provisions. Misplaced Pages needs to decide if it will become an authoritative resource, or remain an unreliable one. -- Fyslee / talk 06:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• As I said, experts should be given some more clout, if you will. Exactly how to do this cannot easily be defined without being inherently arbitrary. A side issue is identity. Not all users disclose their real identities, and maybe some experts wish to as well. Any policy to have experts put in a more powerful position (the word "powerful" being relative here) would be hard to enforce without some type of vetting system, so we don't have to deal with another Essjay controversy. But for the experts we do have and have verified, they need to be respected and listened to. To play the devil's advocate for a moment, however, this is not to say that they should have the final word on a given subject. Any expert scientist has his or her own motives, that much cannot be denied; we are all human, and most of us still have to make a living. They will still be subject to core Misplaced Pages guidelines, and I feel that that includes NPOV as well. If a fringe theory receives enough attention by credible sources, there is no reason to deny it space on Misplaced Pages simply because it is not a mainstream theory. Perhaps a structured type of group of experts meant for discussing certain fields should be set up. Obviously we'd need to get in touch with the Foundation, as I believe they are best able to coordinate something between online and real-world cooperation. --Merovingian (T, C) 07:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I've read some horrible stories about "experts" who were really hurt by off-Wiki attacks by the POV zealots out there. If I have to give my private information to edit here, I'm not going to edit. Think about the Scientology article. Who here would even dare go over there to clean up that mess? Not me. They are scary. And think about the sociopaths that inhabit Creationism, Abortion, and numerous other articles. If they knew who we were, they'd not stop at harming our reputations or worse. Not to sound paranoid, but these people ARE sociopaths. OrangeMarlin 15:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I understand your concern, as I have been pestered myself by off-wiki malcontents. It wouldn't be necessary to publicly identify yourself, but to just confirm your credentials to the Board or Jimbo, basically, anybody that can really be trusted, wouldn't be too bad, right? --Merovingian (T, C) 03:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think my motion is a defeatist attitude. I see it as an evolutionary process, if you will. Just as Nupedia transformed into Misplaced Pages, so should Misplaced Pages transform into Citizendium. The problems over which we quarrel today do not exist there. There's no need for a revolutionary process or profound changes to a dysfunctional system and its policies--just a simple move for those dedicated to providing accurate information. ~ UBeR (talk) 07:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• UBeR, I don't think M. was responding to you but rather to the original proposal. Raymond Arritt (talk) 07:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, I know he wasn't. If you simply leave the project, then Merovingian may very well be correct. I was simply trying to explain why I think my idea shouldn't be considered a defeat. ~ UBeR (talk) 16:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• That would amount to abandoning the highest profile source to the cranks. Citizendium is a noble idea that will never begin to compete with Misplaced Pages for the top spot in searches, and that's what the public uses. This is a much larger vehicle that just needs fixing. No need to build the (much smaller) bridge all over again. -- Fyslee / talk 07:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• With that type of attitude, yes it will remain that way. The purpose, of course, is to dispel that kind of attitude and eventually bring that project to something that surpasses Misplaced Pages. Lets not kid ourselves, we're not working on some bridge that just needs some minor tweaks and adjustments--this is more akin to an I-35 we're working on. You are not going to fix things here in one fell swoop. You're talking about big changes, some of which are inherently against Wale's philosophies and ideals for Misplaced Pages. I've been looking around reading some the suggestions and can't help but notice the similarities between what they want and what Citizendium already has: appreciation and roles for its experts, flagged articles, accountability, reliability, accuracy, stability... ~ UBeR (talk) 17:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• As a finance professional, please change "scientist" to "expert." There are experts in fields that are not hard-sciences. PouponOnToast (talk) 15:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

* How about a one-week strike!!!!  :) Let's see what Jimbo has at the end of the week. OrangeMarlin 15:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Clearly this is an issue which a lot of people are concerned about. Is it entirely out of the question to push for a policy change or for specific new panel? Jefffire (talk) 16:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think a policy change is in the cards, and I'm not convinced one is even needed. Misplaced Pages already has some good policies but they're being ignored or perverted to other ends. Instead of WP:WEIGHT, we get a fatuous "some say the earth is round, others say it is flat" version of neutrality. Instead of WP:IAR, which says that the good of the encyclopedia is more important than rigid adherence to rules, we have endless process wonkery while the encyclopedia deteriorates (more like "ignore all facts, obey all rules"). It's more of a cultural issue than a policy issue. And cultures are much harder to change than policies. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I mostly agree, but with some minor disagreements: It's not something to be done out of principle but something scientists are forced to do out of pragmatism. Expert editors simply cannot effectively make edits to Misplaced Pages. The upward battle in attempting to do so is extremely stressful, and not enjoyable. I'm no scientist, but I am a college student and I have struggled to include basic information I learned in introductory college courses, based on college textbooks I currently have in my posessions and extensive research, as a hobby. Simply leaving Misplaced Pages is not a good thing because Misplaced Pages is a feedback loop whereby if expert editors leave, the whole thing will collapse into a jumble of nonsense in an even worse condition than it is in now.

Scientists firmly standing against Misplaced Pages's model is a good thing, provided that they either:

1. Strongly voice their condemnation of Misplaced Pages together in an attempt at gaining consensus for policy reforms.
2. Continue making the same contributions on outside wikis based on a different model, such as Citizendium.

In my experience with Citizendium so far, the model seems to suffer from the exact opposite flaw of Misplaced Pages, in that its registration process is unnecessarily tedious, its complex process is difficult to follow and poorly worded such that it discourages "non-expert editors" from being able to quickly and easily join and make edits. An appropriate step towards progress would be a combination of the Misplaced Pages model and the Citizendium model. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 16:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding defeatism: It is only defeatism if this proposal is created by a lack of conviction. Given the amount of work a lot of people have put into stopping fringe theories, I don't think anyone's conviction here ought to be in question.

It is not defeatism if the problems are based on experience, reason, and evidence. See Outside scientific studies confirming Misplaced Pages failure on WP:FAIL. This proposal is based on a rational response to these real observed problems, not mere emotional weakness.

As a few studies have noted, Misplaced Pages has the stability that it does because of a core group of editors regularly watching certain pages. Based on this, an "expert revolt" or "boycott" would definitely have a noticeable, meaningful impact on getting the issue of fringe sources clarified.

For those that do, however, wish to call this "defeatism," based on the University of Minnesota's recommendations, here is one suggestion other than a boycott: A "Greylist" of sources that are usually used as unreliable sources, since fringe-pushers tend to use sources from the same URLs, regularly. Regularly consulting this "greylist" possibly in combination with one of the pro-Science Wikiprojects suggested here may be a more effective way of dealing with fringe. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• The withdrawal of the scientists and intellectuals to effect a crisis on Misplaced Pages? -- I like it! Whether in the long-term this would be "good" or "bad" for WP is debatable, and I could offer several arguments to support either possibility, as well as an argument or two that this move would be a zero-sum gambit, yet I think it's worthwhile. Let WP sink to the depths of scientific illiteracy; let it become a para-wiki or a conservapedia; let the smog of smugness that clouds the eyes of those who fail to see that WP is indeed dysfunctional be lifted. •Jim62sch• 21:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• As a believer in both Misplaced Pages and in science (although not somebody with any specialized scientific training), I obviously don't like this, since it would substantially weaken Misplaced Pages. But I also think (again as somebody who believes in science and who rolls his eyes at such notions as intelligent design, homeopathy, and their ilk) that you might be overstating the extent of the problem. For example, the lead of global warming says "While individual scientists have voiced disagreement with the conclusions of the IPCC, the overwhelming majority of scientists working on climate change are in agreement with the conclusions." which seems to me to be a (just) victory for the forces of science. The lead of homeopathy says "No plausible mode of operation has been identified for homeopathy and its underlying principles are "diametrically opposed" to modern pharmaceutical knowledge. Claims for the efficacy of homeopathy beyond placebo are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical studies and homeopathy is considered to be "scientifically implausible" and pseudoscientific." which seems to me to be another such victory. The lead of intelligent design says "The unequivocal consensus in the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science but pseudoscience." Yet another victory. You're winning. You're only winning because you take a lot of time to counter the fringies, perhaps, but you are winning. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I can't agree with this. Comparing what Misplaced Pages was when I started, to what it is now, it is infinitely better now. And yes I mean not only the articles, but also the hierarchy. There have been useful steps taken to curb the most heinous abuses. And the community openness to introspection is only one of those. There will always be people on the edges, and we should not only include proponents of alternative medicine, but also proponents of the idea that our encyclopedia should only include peer-reviewed sources. That might be fine if we were writing the PDR or a Physics textbook, but we aren't. There are POV-pushers from *both* sides of this debate. To characterize it as a "We-are-right-you-are-wrong" avoids the central problem, which is, we do allow minority viewpoints. Hard scientists need to accept that or make an attempt to change policy. Only consensus will change policy. If consensus cannot be achieved, then the alternative is to accept the status quo even if it grates.Wjhonson (talk) 04:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't see much evidence to support the assertion that we're somehow failing. We're doing very well. If individual editors are getting burned out keeping things in shape, that's a small concern. They need to take a more relaxed approach, or take a break for a while. We'll keep going because there are plenty of other editors to step in and keep things in shape. I don't get this bit about withdrawing because you're "principled"- it just sounds like melodrama to me. Friday (talk) 16:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal 2

It definitely needs tweaking and shortening, so make Proposal 3, 4, 5, etc... -- Fyslee / talk 06:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The ArbCom does not exist to dictate content disputes. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It's about time it consulted scientists and got involved. The reputation and atmosphere of Misplaced Pages are at stake. We are driving away excellent editors, while kooks are a dime a dozen, and they are protected. -- Fyslee / talk 06:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Kookery generally can't stand up against the necessity for good referencing. Even without experts, most editors (be they administrators or not) should be able to enforce our core guidelines. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I definitely agree. The problem is that it isn't working, or at least it is so difficult that good editors get burned out, while some admins protect the kooks, even unbanning them, adopting them, and then protecting them. -- Fyslee / talk 06:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

So, the development of processes to deal with fringe theories and their proponents and their proponents' behavior (not to mention the behavior of Misplaced Pages members such as admins that would condone unwarranted attention for such things) does need to go forward, but I highly doubt that a boycott by experts in those fields will help. Bringing attention to a discussion should give as many users a chance to comment as possible, not that everybody will care, but some fresh ideas can be culled. --Merovingian (T, C) 07:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

As you can see from my link to the "Is homeopathy pseudoscience?" discussion, we have no high level place to discuss such matters. An ordinary RfC doesn't cut it. Science isn't bound by consensus, and in such matters science needs to be given the deciding vote whenever it is feasible. Seriously doubtful situations are another matter, which is not the subject here. -- Fyslee / talk 07:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I would see nothing wrong with establishing a place to discuss that. Please see my longer post in the first section for more. In short, some serious work needs to be done to set something like that up. --Merovingian (T, C) 07:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

As a way to draw attention and more eyeballs to this discussion, I have posted a version of the "notice" to my user and talk pages and invited others to do so as well, with a link back to this page. I think some other mechanisms, like a special Science Committee with administrative powers and input to the Senior levels of the Wiki hierarchy might be helpful. I am not sure a boycott will be necessary, but a widespread threat of a boycott might be enough to get someone's attention. We need to brainstorm to think of ideas on what to do. Here are some:

• a high level committee to deal with science issues and pseudoscience issues or disputes
• renaming NPOV as something else so that people do not mistake NPOV as being neutral, and therefore supportive of pseudoscience
• rewriting the NPOV guidelines to make it more clear that Misplaced Pages will not and can not be a platform for the promotion of pseudoscience over real science
• mechanisms to encourage pseudoscience proponents and trolls etc to go to related Wikis such as Paranormal Wiki where they can promote their material without restrictions that they view as unfair, such as NPOV or interaction with real science and real scientists. Note: the Paranormal Wiki might need to be renamed to accommodate alternative medicine and some other WP:FRINGE science areas, which might object to be classified as "paranormal"
• possibly some sort of special expert status, possibly from vetting, potentially confidential so that people who want to remain anonymous can still have that benefit but be recognized as experts (I have a few graduate degrees in the sciences, but I am loathe to drop my anonymity and I know several others in the same boat)

Here is my proposed viral marketing notice for this page. Please feel free to copy it to your user and talk pages:

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to withdraw from the project.

The bureaucracy should either take corrective steps to fix this situation, or else suffer the eventual loss of huge amounts of valuable talent and volunteered resources.

If you agree with this statement, post it to your pages, and pass it on. (discuss this here)

--Filll (talk) 14:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The problems are not confined to 'science'. 'Philosophy' has long since been abandoned to the wolves. 'Religion' is near hopeless. The Christianity article devolved from an FA article, to GA, to barely B-class because of in fighting, POV-pushing and nonsense. I spent 2007, in that part of Misplaced Pages and — by reputation — had thought the 'science' side was the bastion of sanity. Even outside reviewers have written that the 'science' articles were superior: for example, the infamous 'Nature' comparison to Britannica. To a very productive editor who left Misplaced Pages over the destruction of the Christianity article, I said as - a parting comment - that:

Misplaced Pages eats its young, no doubt about that. I do not know if it will survive in the long term. I'm afraid I spend time at Misplaced Pages with a cheerful apathy and yet I'm endlessly surprised by the destructive behavior: if Misplaced Pages were a person, I'd say it had a severe personality disorder.

Now, I find the same problem exists with the science articles. Having spent a month on the science side, my preconceptions have been shredded. Science is in worse shape; my opinion, but also my observation. I agree with Filll (talk · contribs). Everyone take a wikibreak for a month. The project is entirely volunteer-driven, and everyone deserves a vacation. Nevertheless, I don't think it will cure the problem. I think Misplaced Pages hit its peak in 2007 and will begin its decline this year. Like so many Internet fads, this one will pass. Yahoo and AOL are imploding. MySpace and Facebook will peak this year. Misplaced Pages will have company. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 14:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Anything about finance or economics is overrun with goldbugs and other sorts of fringe wierdness. PouponOnToast (talk) 15:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Just for everyone's info, there is this discussion - Evidence Misplaced Pages is failing at the village pump. A perennial discussion, yes, but relevant. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 15:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• How about some sort of "certified science" label for articles that have been through review by the science community, and judged to be reasonable and balanced and following NPOV carefully. There could be special permission to protect these sorts of articles more aggressively to keep them at a high standard. Other articles might be good, but might have some pseudoscience in them and would not get certified.--Filll (talk) 16:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• • The pie in the sky is not attainable. The problem is not even acknoledged, so let's not skip step 1. PouponOnToast (talk) 16:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think we first have to hit the mule on the head with a 2x4 to get its attention. And we should have proposals to suggest once we get the mule's attention.--Filll (talk) 16:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Even though I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a big contributer to these articles in question, I fully support this month long break. Though most of my editing is simply reverting POV edits and being cranky on talk pages, I have always wondered what would happen, especially if we truly got all the editors on board, if everyone with an ounce of integrity decided to stop defending these articles from the constant onslaught of "fringies" who are seemingly adored by a good number of admins. This whole enterprise would be even better if the articles, that everyone here seeks to protect and uphold, have an outside review during the period everyone is gone (drinking). The intelligent design article will read like a DI blog post. Water memory will be proven through cherry picking of unreliable sources. Evolution will be "just a theory" and Darwin will be described as some of a minion of Satan. Good stuff. Baegis (talk) 16:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• An idea similar to a "certified science" label - see Misplaced Pages:Flagged revisions - seems to be moribund. Zenwhat (talk · contribs) has been busy making some interesting contributions to the Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is failing article. See Outside scientific studies confirming Misplaced Pages failure which says, in part:

For instance, in order to address the problem of unreliable sources and fringe views, there could be the creation of a "greylist" which automatically generates a list of articles which likely contain inappropriate edits, based upon the likelihood of certain sources to be regularly misused again and again. This could more appropriately address extreme violations of WP:NPOV and WP:V, which are not captured by bots, while at the same time allowing humans to make the final decision as to what constitutes a "reliable source" or not.

and

...Misplaced Pages's ability to prevent obvious vandalism is intriguing, but that alone is not how Misplaced Pages's success is defined since the problems stem from system bias and erosion of good content, which, unlike random vandalism, cannot simply be addressed through the use of large networks of bots crawling Misplaced Pages and making automatic reverts according to a set algorithm.

Anyway, as always, there is a lot of typing going on, but will anything get done? The academics seem to see failure. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 16:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Here is another idea. How about a Science Guild, with levels? The top level might be certified experts with credentials. A secondary level might be those invited into the guild by those in the top level as pro-science editors and somewhat trustworthy. People in the guild might be accorded special powers or consideration.--Filll (talk) 16:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The bigger problem is that Wikpedia is all voluntary. No one has to do anything, so establishing a super user with certified credentials doesn't mean the super user is going to step in and do anything. We are barely replacing Admins because of attrition. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 17:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Put on your thinking cap and see if you can come up with constructive suggestions to improve the current situation.--Filll (talk) 18:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue of quacks\cranks\kooks

A completely open wiki-process appears to fail because it makes the false assumption that a minority of bad editors (vandals, trolls, and just general nutcases) cannot overwhelm a majority of good editors. An open question: Can we make a similar assumption regarding the sample of "expert editors"?

The idea of supporting a more closed system like Citizendium or a "Science Guild" as proposed above seems to rely on the assumption that the proportion of bad average editors to good average editors is larger than the proportion of bad expert editors to good expert editors. If we have a more closed system, a Science Guild, etc., some theoretical problems that could arise in certain fields:

• People with degrees in Feminist studies, Black studies, Queer studies, etc., vandalizing various articles
• Neomarxians, Austrian economists, Sociologists, and Ecologists vandalizing articles on economics
• Economists vandalizing articles on Ecology and Sociology
• Theologians vandalizing articles on religion
• Philosophers -- they'd probably vandalize just about everything (just kidding)
• Wackos with Ph.D.s in medical fields vandalizing articles on Homeopathy and Alternative medicine

As a demonstration of how this problem might arise (and certainly would in rare cases), there is User:Pundit who is a visiting professor at Harvard (I verified his credentials), but at the same time he made this absolutely absurd edit and has argued that Cannabis Culture magazine is a "reliable source."

Having an education, such as a Ph.D., generally grants a greater absolute degree of trustworthiness, but not a guaranteed degree of trustworthiness. (See quackwatch) More importantly, does the attainment of a degree ensure a greater relative degree of trustworthiness, compared with others of the same educational achievement? If not, then how could such a policy improve Misplaced Pages's margin of error?

And should expert editors have broad authority or only authority over their particular field? How narrowly should "their particular field" be? On one article I saw a debate where some people claimed that a professor wasn't a reliable source, because the article was on Islamic history, but he was a professor just on Islamic theology, not specifically on "Islamic history"! Is that too narrow? ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 17:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Under the current system, one or two vandals or POV warriors or trolls etc can overwhelm many mainstream editors. What is needed is a new approach to this and a willingness to try different kinds of remedies and tools. For example, one thing that is often tried is to restrict the editing of the mainspace page by a problem editor, but to let them run rampant on talk pages at will. This really is just about as disruptive and upsetting, and frankly not a useful remedy on places like homeopathy. Of course, "experts" can still cause problems. That is why a self-governing Guild, which can control or monitor the actions of its members, with levels of "trustedness" is appropriate. As an outside check, the products of the guild should be eventually peer-reviewed by outside bodies as feedback to the WP community at large that the Guild has not gone off the deep end. --Filll (talk) 18:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Counter-proposal

I mentioned this above, but I feel like putting it in a blue-bordered box like everyone else:

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to impress upon all of his or her colleagues the importance and value of participating in a medium like Misplaced Pages.

The reason that WP:WEIGHT is so hard to uphold is that minority views are represented on Misplaced Pages far in excess of their representation in the real world. This creates a skewed perspective, where ideas like AIDS denialism or secondhand-smoke-is-harmless are considered reasonable alternative views rather than discredited fringism. The solution is not to go on strike, which would dilute the accurate representation of these topics even further, but to convince scientists, researchers, and generally knowledgeable folk of the need to contribute. Such people tend to be skeptical of an encyclopedia that anyone can edit - for good reason - but with increased participation these problems will go away. MastCell 18:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this in principle, except that we should try to consider some other options to try to improve the situation if we cannot recruit enough mainstream scientists, or recruit them fast enough, or if they find Misplaced Pages to be an unfriendly environment.--Filll (talk) 18:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it even the right option to try and fix the problem by weight of numbers? It could just turn out a big-ass edit war. Jefffire (talk) 18:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The idea is to encourage knowledgeable people to volunteer to share that knowledge via Misplaced Pages. It sounds like the best option to me. MastCell 00:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Small-scale strike

I was thinking that if the idea of a complete abandonment of Misplaced Pages (or the controversial areas at least) by experts seems a bit extreme at first, we might wish to try enacting it on a much smaller scale. For instance, we could start with one article. Encourage everyone who's been working on defending the expert POV on that article to give it a break for a week or two (both on the article and talk page), and then we'll see how quickly and how badly it deteriorates.

One article I think might be perfect for this is Homeopathy. If you've had any experience with it, the reasons why should go without saying. For those that haven't, it's an extremely controversial article that was eventually pushed up to Good Article status a while back. It's been protected for long bouts of time, and recently came off of one long protection. Now might be a good chance to see how it falls from its GA version (or even the last protected version) when the homeopaths have their way with it. --Infophile 18:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Rather than a month-long total wikipedia boycott, how about nominating 8 or 10 specific articles (evolution, intelligent design, homeopathy, abortion, atheism - whatever) and letting just those articles succumb to mob rule for a month. Just as effective in terms of making a point, perhaps easier to make a "story" out of for the media, and a lot less of a mess to clean up eventually (which I'm sure is what would happen). Snalwibma (talk) 18:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with both of these. And homeopathy was an article I particularly had in mind. I would give it longer than 2 weeks however, to let the editing really pick up steam. At least a month or two would be great. It would be an interesting experiment to watch what happens. Mainstream POV editors would still have to watch the article to minimize mainstream edits, and prevent other editors inadvertently wandering into the experiment and then fighting against the FRINGE elements. Let the FRINGE elements have the article to themselves for a good long time; we can always revert any damage.

I suspect that SOME of the WP:FRINGE elements are only here to fight, and not to actually create anything at all or be productive. I think some will not be bothered to edit at all if there is no fighting to be done, because all they are interested in is fighting. I would be interested in testing that hypothesis.--Filll (talk) 18:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to start now then with that article. Anyone else who wants is of course free to join me, though I won't be informing any new users about it until we have a consensus that it's a good idea. --Infophile 18:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have serious doubts about this. The fringers would soon get wind of the experiment. The saner ones would encourage the others to back off (or even make constructive edits) to foil it. We'd end up with egg on our face, and the fringers would get to say "See? They're whinging about nothing." Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a concern. Maybe we should decide off-wiki which article to stop editing. On the other hand, I'm not sure this lot has the foresight to try to foil our plans like this, especially with how frequently new users join their side. --Infophile 18:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have actually proposed this exact same scenario a few times to the "fringers" in homeopathy a few times over the last few weeks. The "fringers" I talked to were anxious to "give it a go" (like Whig for example), since they are positive that the pro-science people are just insane and do not really know what neutral means and NPOV. I am positive if we gave Whig a reprieve from his currently impending doom at his 3rd RfC, he and several others would jump on board to promote the "Truth".

Believe me, they are just as annoyed with the pro-science lobby as we are with them. They would revel in a chance to get rid of us so they could really write these articles the way they should be written. And why not give them a chance to see how they do? I had previously suggested a period of 6 months of unfettered editing.--Filll (talk) 19:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I think 6 months might be too long. We could probably make a good point with just one month. --Infophile 19:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Only partially in jest

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course is for all editors to work together to fix it.

I'm not saying that fixing it will be easy though. If it were, we'd have already done so. --Ronz (talk) 18:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Although this is a great idea, there is a core problem or imbalance that several pro-science editors have noticed. We have a situation where pseudoscience is being favored over real science, and pseudoscience promoters and trolls are being treated with kid gloves and nurtured, while real scientists are being driven off. Articles are turning into terrible battlegrounds between pro-science and anti-science forces, and the anti-science forces often get the upper hand or just overwhelm the pro-science forces, or exhaust them. It is because there is a HUGE group of editors on Misplaced Pages that do not want science here, and want to spread pseudoscience, and the bureaucracy enables this and protects it.--Filll (talk) 18:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be difficult to fix a problem that very few will even admit exists. A good number of the people in power positions, for whatever reason, are failing to address the problem. Also, many of the people on the fringe side are looked at as the scrappy little underdogs and in need of admin support. Because who doesn't root for the underdog when he is taking on the big, bad establishment? Except for those whose reasoning is grounded in reality. Baegis (talk) 18:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly what I was thinking - except, I'm not sure that wikipedia is "dysfunctional". It's still young, and works fairly well, in terms of its intended purpose. It's not a reliable source, so why hold it to that standard in the first place? Tparameter (talk) 00:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly correct Baegis. That is why we need two things:

• Ideas on creative ways to try to help the current system improve
• A big wakeup call to the establishment to help implement any ideas; an alarm basically, to let the establishment know there is a problem that needs to be addressed (as has happened a few times previously)--Filll (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Undue weight to the success of Misplaced Pages

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, and that anonymous volunteers’ - who do not benefit because of their good work – labor on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to withdraw from all stress inducing work and maximize leisure time pleasure. The principled scientist should treat the project as a fun hobby.

The community of hobbyist-editors ought not to concern themselves with the success or failure of Misplaced Pages. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the labor of valuable talented volunteers. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the good will of readers as inferior and worthless articles predominate. Misplaced Pages is an experiment that may not succeed.

Be a WikiSloth. Spend time with your family. Write real papers and real articles in the real world. On Misplaced Pages, enjoy yourself.

• I think that we may be placing undue weight on the success of Misplaced Pages, itself. What if this version of the collaborative model fails? Why should we subsidize a trouble model,with excessive time and labor? Would anyone here remain at their place of work - where you are actually paid and recognized / credited - if this level of dysfunction existed? In the cartoon strip Dilbert, you could be a 'Wally'. Or, you could try to help make your employer better. Or, you could find a better employer. Misplaced Pages isn't work. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 21:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• Hear, hear! --Merovingian (T, C) 03:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think this may be my favorite idea of all. How about the following revision? Raymond Arritt (talk)

Given the dysfunction that now prevails in the Misplaced Pages community, and the fact that effort on Misplaced Pages is anonymous, unrecognized, and unrewarded, the most appropriate course for a scientist or other expert is to avoid all stress inducing aspects of the project and maximize leisure time pleasure. They should treat the project as a fun hobby and stay away from potentially stressful activities such as resolving disputes or enforcing policy.

These hobbyist-experts ought not to concern themselves with the success or failure of Misplaced Pages. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the labor of talented volunteers. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the good will of readers as inferior and biased articles increasingly predominate. Such matters are of no consequence to the hobbyist-expert.

Be a WikiSloth. Spend time with your family. Write real papers and real articles in the real world. On Misplaced Pages, enjoy yourself.

I like the revision. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 04:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

That about sums up my approach to the project at this stage--same as when I started! Mackensen (talk) 16:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

So how do you explain that patch in the middle? :) (ducks, runs) ++Lar: t/c 17:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

(Cross-posted) Two years of temporary insanity? Mackensen (talk) 19:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK -- me, Wassup and Mackensen makes three of us. Is that enough to qualify as a cabal? Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Another crazy idea

I suspect that a good fraction of our problems is the name NPOV for the goal for how articles should be written. As Jimbo has said before (and I am looking for this quote), the word "neutral" in this name is misleading and creates a lot of confusion, because we do not want our articles to be "neutral" but "balanced" in a certain way, and not balanced so that WP:FRINGE views have equal weight to mainstream scientific views.

I think that NPOV should be renamed. Called it "Mainstream Point of View" or "Balanced Point of View" or "Conventional Point of View" or "Dominant Point of View" or something. NPOV is an awful name, and creates probably 75% of the problems, I have observed.--Filll (talk) 00:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a hard time buying this. The people who are the problem editors already aren't trying to achieve what we describe as a neutral point of view. Changing the name would help, really? I doubt it. Undue weight is already reasonably well explained. Friday (talk) 00:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

It would help. We need something that clearly says, the mainstream dominates. Period. If you don't like it, then, make like the birds and flock off.---Filll (talk) 01:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

We have that- it's Misplaced Pages:NPOV#Undue_weight. Been there for years. Friday (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, UNDUE is part of NPOV, and from what I have observed (and Jimbo noted in some talk as I am trying to verify), the "N" for "neutral" in "NPOV" is seized on by people who do not want to read a lot of text and just want to edit. And they misinterpret the "N" to mean "neutral" and therefore nothing negative about their favorite subject.--Filll (talk) 19:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Dysfunctional?

If you hold wikipedia to the standard of reliable sources, then it's dysfunctional purely by its nature. But, it's not a reliable source. Basically, it's young, and it functions fairly well, and seems to be improving. It's a great place to get basic information on a variety of topics - a place to start studying a topic. Moreover, as a platform, it's very young. Some people aren't cut out for it, however - whether they are scientists or otherwise. Of course, everyone who leaves has their own reasons, but it seems like most of the vocal ones that I've seen tend to leave because they can't function without more control than they can garner. Tparameter (talk) 00:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not think you understand the situation.--Filll (talk) 01:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe that I do. My understanding is that in order to accept most of these discussions, first you have to accept that dysfunction "prevails" on wikipedia. My point is that the premise is debatable. Tparameter (talk) 01:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

We can either give up and accept things as they are, or we can try to improve things.--Filll (talk) 02:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Since that's at least your third response to me (in two different threads of the same or similar topic) without addressing the points I've made in the slightest, and since you did not ask for clarification, I guess I can assume that you don't want to discuss my points substantively. That's okay - but, I'm left slightly (very slightly) curious as to why you would waste your time in the first place. With regard to frustrating discussions on wikipedia, I suppose I could thank you for the irony. ;] Anyway, all the best. Tparameter (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I am glad to respond to your points, once I am sure that you understand where this page is coming from. I responded with a long post on Raymond arritt's talk page. As long as you have read it and understood it, then if you have any further comments or questions then please post them and I will try to address them, if I can understand them (to be honest I cannot quite understand what you are saying above).--Filll (talk) 03:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Tparameter makes a good point here. There will always be a certain amount of dysfunction on Misplaced Pages caused by its very nature. If you try and eradicate that part of the dysfunction, you are fighting the system itself. Carcharoth (talk) 19:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course Misplaced Pages is dysfunctional. However, several things have changed in the last few years to reduce, or attempt to reduce, dysfunctionality at Misplaced Pages, such as BLP, OTRS, Arbcomm and many other policies.

It is naive and even silly to imagine that the current Misplaced Pages system cannot be improved further. After all, there are volumes of criticism in the academic literature, popular media and other online and blog communities about how awful Misplaced Pages is at X, or Y or Z, and ideas for how Misplaced Pages should change to improve itself.

So it is not completely ridiculous to at least contemplate how Misplaced Pages might possibly improve in some areas where it is obviously struggling. Because, you never know, we might have a positive impact. And if you never try to improve, you never will.--Filll (talk) 19:15, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Another crazy idea (2)

What about if some articles require you to pass an NPOV quiz first before you are "certified" to edit?--Filll (talk) 01:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see if any of the current "editors" on the Homeopathy article could pass this test. Baegis (talk) 01:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Apart from other concerns, that strikes me as a very easy quiz to game. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 01:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You are quite right. But it would be a start. It is not the only remedy we should consider. I think people who cannot or will not abide by NPOV should be rapidly barred from editing until they can demonstrate that they are able and willing to abide by NPOV.--Filll (talk) 01:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

That is what gave me the idea. I am positive that almost all of the people I have seen having trouble with the mainstream consensus on creationism, intelligent design, homeopathy and similar kinds of articles does not know what NPOV is. I have seen this over and over and over. If these people had to demonstrate a knowledge of NPOV, and could be rapidly barred from editing even the talk page because of failure to understand NPOV, then things would be far less tense and pressured and we might actually do more creative productive work.

I suspect that most of these people are here only to fight. However, those that want to be productive but cannot work within NPOV are frustrated over and over and become embittered and it consumes a huge amount of community effort to get rid of them. It is not that their material is not interesting and entertaining, but it is not suitable for Misplaced Pages. That is why I am trying to find other creative outlets for them so they can be productive too.--Filll (talk) 01:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

There's a problem with that idea, Fill. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 15:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Although you see what I am trying to do; that is, to address the problem somehow that actually the people who are struggling here do not know what NPOV is, and possibly do not want to know.

I will admit that when I first came to Misplaced Pages, I didn't know either and I was confused. It was not really that clear. And so possibly if some more examples and an FAQ and some test questions etc were assembled to help people learn, this might help a lot.--Filll (talk) 15:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A less aggressive proposal

Just brainstorming. Tparameter (talk) 03:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Should one discard NPOV?--Filll (talk) 03:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Tparameter (talk) 04:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

No one wants to waste time gaining the trust of wingnuts. We want to get rid of the junk. Why err on the side of caution? For example, do we have to talk through every 'perpetual motion machine'? Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 03:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that a 'perpetual motion machine' would be considered to be qualified for the cautious approach. On the other hand, I've seen MIT research scientists classified as "nutjobs" within their field of expertise. That would clearly be a case to use caution instead of blatant attacks on a true intellectual. As for "wingnuts", I would say that homeopathy and the like are much more likely to attract moonbats. Tparameter (talk) 04:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Pretty good. The last sentence doesn't square with real-world experience, though it may be helpful in a Machiavellian sense. Raymond Arritt (talk) 04:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I was kind of thinking that kooks could be persuaded to move toward editing other things they're interested in, like the cities where they live, their hobbies, and so forth - instead of provoking strong emotions in areas of faith. It's a long-shot. Tparameter (talk) 06:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A principled scientist should learn how to explain science. It would be just as wrong to withdraw from editing WP as to withdraw from teaching science courses to nonscientists. There is no need to "label" pseudoscience, just to explain it. Anyone who claims to be an expert should be able to give an object description of even the most absurd theory. an objective description will make it plain to everyone but the convinced anti-science POV. There is no need to resort to labels to explain things to a unprejudiced reader. (and no hope at all that a label convince the prejudiced to look at things more scientifically). Homeopathy (for example), explained in any straightforward way, is obvious nonsense, and I do not see what is gained by trying to say it is pseudoscience--it will only give the impression that the scientist is the bigot. Those who resort to opprobrium always give an impression that it is they who are prejudiced. The thing to do with the ignorant is to teach them, and those who want to defend science have the obligation to learn how to do it patiently. DGG (talk) 05:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

But what to when the ignorant insist on remaining ignorant, and fight objective descriptions tooth and claw? I agree that labeling things as pseudoscience may not be effective (even when incontestably correct). But getting an accurate, straightforward account of these topics into Misplaced Pages is nearly impossible in the face of opposition from determined advocates of nonsense -- and the administrators who shelter them. Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Are we forgetting what is pretty obvious at times, namely that some editors are incapable of understanding these issues? Some are too immature, some are uneducated, some are mentally disturbed, others are immune to cognitive dissonance (IOW they are really and truly true believers). They too waste alot of our time and effort. It's like trying to make jello stick to the ceiling with thumbtacks. -- Fyslee / talk 06:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm just waiting for a specific instance to be cited. And I mean a long-term war against "wingnuts" that would be so drama-filled as to cause sensible scientists to leave the Wikiverse. I've been involved in long-term wars and I'm still here. Perhaps I'm not sensible. There may be a slight possibility, that certain personality-types aren't well-suited to play Wikimopoly.Wjhonson (talk) 06:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course, but there are different forces at play. The forces pushing an academic away from academia are 1. need to get published in peer-reviewed journal 2. need to get paid to teach 3. fear of being seen editing Misplaced Pages by other academics, WP being regarded as an extension of crank activity on usenet. The forces pushing him or her onto WP are 1. Displacement activity for writers block on peer-reviewed article 2. Enjoys making fun of cranks (same thing explains why academics go on usenet) 3. Real concern that some cranky subject is getting #1 ranking in Google, and the public is being misled. By contrast, there are no forces pushing the crank off WP. Only ones pushing them on, in particular the realisation that anything they write will be the first thing that comes on Google. What crank would resist? In the old days, you had to spend a lot of your own money getting your mad idea published, and no one would pay real money to read it anyway. In the internet era all has changed. For free you can get your idea 'published' so that millions would read it. You don't have to pay the vast sums for google to advertise it. Just write some old rubbish in Misplaced Pages. Quite clearly the forces acting for crank ideas are far more powerful than those in the other direction. In my view academics should be paid by their institutions to write for WP, but perhaps that's controversial. [later edit - this makes it quite obvious why it is difficult for WP to attract academics. User:Renamed user 4

Chiropractic comes to mind - but, I'm curious how many "scientists" see one every other week. It's quackery (and it's been confirmed through personal experience) - yet, the article doesn't reflect the degree to which it is a pseudoscience. My point is that I'm less worried about those without the capacity to understand; I'm worried about those WITH the capacity, but that actually believe. Tparameter (talk) 06:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Which I think illustrates the problem. You have a personal bias against Chiropracty, which may or may not be justified. I take no stance on that. I happen to have a wheelbarrow of personal bias myself, as we all do. However our job here, is as journalists to document the situation, not judge the situation. We form articles from verifiable sources. If ten million people believe chiropracty helps them, then we have to accept that as verifiable even if we think it's the placebo effect. Our own personal opinions must be laid aside once we enter the wikiverse, and we must edit to policy, not to a scientific standard. Scientists have plenty of journals in which to express their articles. And "wingnuts" have plenty of places to express theirs. We document the universe, we should not also determine it. Wjhonson (talk) 06:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

One of my main points is that caution on these topics is best. Yes, I think Chiropractors are quacks - but, you can note that I have never modified that article, for example. Why? For exactly the reasons you said. On the other hand, as an example of over-reaching science-police around here, the Austrian school of economics was put in the category of "pseudosciences" recently. Philosophies regarding economics, particularly those with Nobel laureates as members, do not fit that category at all IMO. This is what I'm referring to with regard to caution. There are actually plenty of examples of exploratory or skeptical areas of science, or in this case political philosophy, that "mainstream" scientists here label as pseudoscience. I'm saying, relax, and focus on those subjects that are CLEARLY quackery to all but only the tiniest minority. Tparameter (talk) 07:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I would tend to say something like "that position appears to lack substantive evidence". If I were to instead say "you are a loon", I don't think I'd get anywhere with my editorial comrade. Wjhonson (talk) 07:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Why do we get so hung-up on the category:Pseudoscience tag, which many of the debates seem to be about. Its a Pejorative term, its a black/white distinction, when reality is shades of grey. By relentlessly trying to force this term you do nothing but create an argument. So don't come crying when you get an argument. --Salix alba (talk) 09:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

So true. Tparameter (talk) 15:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I can see both sides of this. The Pseudoscience category is a bit like waving a red flag in front of a bull. I know some are considering other names for it and have considered other names for this category, to be less upsetting to the proponents. On the other hand, I find the categories very handy for finding related articles and topics quickly and easily. So...--Filll (talk) 15:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't resist commenting on this one

I couldn't resist joining this one - please note I have been indefinitely blocked (see User talk:Renamed user 4), but this almost no bearing on what I say here.

1. I originally started the 'Expert Rebellion' page with Engineer Scotty years ago. I see the situation hasn't improved, indeed got worse.

2. I am amused to see, still, that each person regards only their own area of expertise as vulnerable to crank ideas. Look, every area has its cranks. Mathematics I was involved with a complete nut who belongs to the 'Cantor was wrong' school of thought, courtesy usenet. Mainstream science we know about. And philosophy, my area of expertise, got corrupted long ago. Check out my talk page for the tracking I am doing on the articles as they degrade. Philosophy, despite being the origin of all rationalism in ancient greek times, and which in academic circles is still a very difficult technical subject to master, as a natural target for bar-room 'philosophers' (and ganja smoking ones, natch).

3. And you are all missing the real elephant in the room, which is Neurolinguistic programming. Just check out the version as at the end of 2006, with what it is now. It got taken over by a bunch of these kooks, who are practising 'therapists', and moreover they have very powerful support here (mentioning no names - that's what got me blocked).

4. On the idea of small-scale strike, we tried that on the philosophy main article when it was attacked by two well-meaning but idiotic editors. They tore the article into pieces in about a week, feuding with each other. One thing you haven't picked up on is that cranks, while they have a common target (scientific conspiracy against them) will appear united. But of course cranks are only cranks because they have some peculiar idiosyncratic view of their own meaning by definition they disagree with all other cranks. They quickly start fighting. The reason experts are able to agree is because they have a well-defined and very sharp line between crank theories on the one hand, and minority but scientific positions on the other, and can unite against cranks. This happened on the Philosophy page, where there Anglo-analytic types united with the European Hegelian/Habermas types for a unique period in the history of the subject against the cranks.

5. The suggestion above for a system based on trust, that would not need credentials, is the obvious way to go. Or perhaps some credentials based on work at WP, not the outside world. The trust could be earned in all sorts of ways, not just scientific expertise.

5a. I do think academics (not just scientists - the 'humanities' side of WP needs far more attention than the science side) should be encouraged, perhaps financially, to edit WP, but this makes it quite obvious why this will not happen User:Renamed user 4

6. Wish you all well, I have every support for what you are doing. Good luck. (Though I have to say, you need it. ) Again, apologies for butting in when I am no longer really part of WP. User:Renamed user 4

Gah, I've seen the NLP page in action. There's a lot of money and conflicts of interest at play regarding that particular piece. Jefffire (talk) 11:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes - I've just linked in the end-2006 version for a true comparison. User:Renamed user 4

Hey! I'm glad others have noticed it! Now that we have, we can follow what is the right remedy for such problems, which is editing by a wider group of responsible editors. That's the solution for bias and POV-- in every direction. And that is why we do not want editing only by "elite" editors or experts-- I don't trust elites: I think the people who have been editing NLP think of themselves as the experts. I don't think the people at Citizendium are any freer from POV than the ones here. I agree 100% with Mast Cell in his many comments above--the solution to the problems of WP is wider participation. What we want with WP is to attract good people, people who will want to teach others, especially the ignorant. On any given topic, the eccentric will be hugely outnumbered if enough people pay attention. We want to attract those who want to help, not those who want to pontificate. (I hope everyone knows my own bias, which is that what is called pseudoscience is indeed stupid. But I want to encourage people to grow out of it, not corner them into defending it.) DGG (talk) 04:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with the views of DGG expressed above. All surveys of the public demonstrate a far greater acceptance of anything deemed to be pseudoscience or WP:FRINGE beliefs among the public than the experts or those trained in that area subscribe to, including alien abduction, holocaust denial, belief in ghosts, bigfoot, levitation, telepathy, astrology, witches, demons, etc. If an unmanaged flood of editors is envisaged, you will get the public views in every single article. Including the world view that Americans or Westerners are the most evil people in existence and should be killed on sight, which is quite prevalent in many areas of the world with large populations (of course, these views might carry some truth with them).--Filll (talk) 16:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As an adjunct to this, should we close all schools of library science? Allow anyone off the street to summarily fire any librarian and replace them? Get rid of the Library of Congress research service and replace the staff there with the janitorial staff? Drop not only college requirements but high school or elementary school graduation requirements for hiring as a teacher?--Filll (talk) 16:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm well I tried. For the Philosophy articles I went to academic departments and emailed profs and suchlike and tried to encourage them. Usually they responded that since Misplaced Pages can be edited by anyone, anything they wrote would be corrupted by idiots. I did try to explain that NPOV principle means that won't happen so long as enough experts are involved but of course they took one look at the pages and decided, rightly, that not enough experts were involved, and it became self-fulfulling. I did get Peter King briefly involved, but you only have to look at his user page to see what happened. User:Renamed user 4

Proposal : Content Arbcom

Not a bad idea. I presume you will add more here?--Filll (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that Universities be contacted for named highly credentialed and respected volunteers to man an English-language Misplaced Pages content arbcom in which our regular arbcom passes them issues for deciding once and for all (or maybe only a year or two?) content decisions on highly limited but significant questions of fact that can not be resolved though consensus except by wearing out one side or the other. I see this as starting small and limited and becoming larger and more important and useful over time, especially with flagged versions. Using named people, limiting their time involvement, and limiting the issues to be decided can make this a post people will feel is worth their time and possibly useful in their career. see also Wikiquality WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

See http://www.ocwconsortium.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view%20%20&id=15&Itemid=29 for such institutions that share WikiMedia's ideals (and also a great source for high quality data). WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Excellent ideas. These are exactly the types of ideas that I hoped we would start to generate and catalogue at this page.--Filll (talk) 16:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A content arb-com of some form is an excellent idea in my opinion. Jefffire (talk) 17:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I have had similar thoughts myself, although I prefer the term editorial board. Personally, for the sake of fairness, I would have a number of subcommittees (for example: Fine Arts and history; Film, television and contemporary music; Physics, mathematics, and engineering; and Biology and medicine), each of which would have a post for each of the five major continental regions. This does lead to committee creep, yes, but we need to make sure that cultural biases are reduced, and each area does tend to have a slightly different style of coverage (certainly I doubt that a mathematician, a media studies professor and a historian would all agree on what is notable and needed to be covered for their own areas). Content policies should be controlled also by such a board, for as we have seen, a degree of expert understanding is really needed to understand their original spirit. LinaMishima (talk) 17:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The idea of a content Arbcom is a great idea. And yes, there should be numerous different groups that can each cover a major area. It could be split up similar to how a college is divided. For example, there could be:

• a Physical Sciences Arbcom (Math, physics, chemistry, stats, earth sciences, Engineering (maybe), and the like)
• a Bio Sciences committee (Biology, EEOB, BioChem, maybe medical as well),
• a Social Science (Economics, Philosophy, Sociology, Pysch) and so forth.

Some of the Arbcoms would be broad, but could subdivide work amongst themselves and even open separate panels to address area specific questions, ie especially in the broad category of Social Sciences. Of course, to become a member of one of these groups would be a matter of debate. We could take a model similar to Citizendium and have people who actually work in the field sit on them; this would of course entail a bit of outing to explain your credentials (Master's, Doctorate, work in the field) which may cause problems. I think we are all aware of the stress that being outed could actually entail, especially when it leads to harassment at your workplace. Another option would be to have elections, similar to the current Arbcom, but the biggest problem with that would be the fact that, in many areas, it might lead to no one being elected. I'm sure we have seen what happens at RFA's to anyone with the slightest hint of a mainstream POV (edit:also in RFC's). The fringe users come out in full force and meatstack the whole oppose section. But I would encourage the other side to get involved, because it would help to have a sane (and understanding of what NPOV actually means) creationist *gasp* sit with the group overseeing the related articles to make sure the articles on creationism get a fair shake (which they already do, but we have to think in terms of balance). Same thing with the Homeopathy article. I hope this makes some sense, because I think that this might be one of the better ideas so far. Except for the strike, of course. Baegis (talk) 20:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the groups themselves should consist mostly of a few people with academic qualifications and positions. By requiring this, we reduce the potential group size needed, we avoid similar problems to the Esjay farce, and ensure that there is quality to the group's work. However it may be of use to have layman's postings also availible. I would also suggest elections for these posts (or at least most of them) rather than selection from up high, as that is more likely to be approved of by the community, and increases the likelihood that a given member will be generally respected. LinaMishima (talk) 21:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

When you guys talk about the wikipedia community electing a content arbcom, you miss the entire point. The wikipedia community has no credibility in determining who to pick as an expert on a given claim. Universities and the like do. We pick institutions that wish to coordinate their expert volunteers. Misplaced Pages is not qualified to decide that User:WAS is an expert in H5N1. We can decide that Harvard as an institution is qualified to find an expert volunteer in replying to a claim in dispute that has reached arbcom and arbcom passes to them. If wikipedia is going to start voting on who is to decide an issue of fact, then we are truly lost without any credibility at all. Misplaced Pages's community can identify credible institutions that do have credibility and that's what we need to do. WAS 4.250 (talk) 22:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I should have been clearer - academic institutions should nominate, then the community picks, or at the very least all persons standing must have some form of institutional backing. The need for the community to be involved in picking the board is clear - without that aspect, people will claim it is an attempt to get around consensus and the like. Basically, we must use the system for our own ends, not insist on some novel method, however more appropriate a novel method may be. LinaMishima (talk) 22:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is an excellent idea to have the community approve/disapprove a volunteer outside expert for a specific category of claim (physics, music, etc) who has been first identified by an accredited credible institution as an expert in a given area or for a given claim. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I think both have a place here. Of course, we need more outside independent review, one way or another to have more credibility. And academia is a perfect place to look towards.

However, I think something like an internal Science Guild and/or science editorial board might be of some use. The Science Guild could consist both of individuals with verified credentials, and those invited into the Guild, possibly creating an organization with multiple levels accordingly. There are many day-to-day functions that could be dealt with a structure like this. Presumably we would only go outside for reviews or to mediate problems once or twice a year, and it would be unreasonable to ask an outside body to be more intimately involved. For day to day questions and decisions and advice, the internal body would be relied on. One might imagine the Science Guild as functioning like the US Presidential Science Advisor, or US National Academy of Sciences. Many content questions dealing with science are sent to Arbcomm, which usually has nothing to say, and the issue continues to brew or fester.--Filll (talk) 22:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A two-tier approach could work well, but verified identities are required. The current ArbCom system, that allows editors to contribute to decisions can be appropriated to allow others to be involved. I would also strongly recommend that if we bring this proposal forward, that we do it for all content areas, not just for 'scientific' articles (I'm sure a history or film studies professor would not approve of being called not a science, even though it is a different form to the physical sciences). By covering all areas, this would seem less biased, and help all areas equally. LinaMishima (talk) 22:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

This second "tier" sounds like a cross between proposals to allow projects extra authority over "their" articles and something I proposed that went nowhere which was a policy addition that said expert opinion counted for more than non-expert opinion in evaluating which sources were more reliable for a given claim. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Since you already have been thinking in this direction, that tells me we might be on the right track.

The difference between science and other areas is that it is much easier to distinguish mainstream from nonmainstream material in science, in most cases. Also, the material that is strongest on Misplaced Pages in general is science, and most professional scientists use Misplaced Pages in their work according to surveys. The opposite is true in the humanities where Misplaced Pages is almost universally viewed as a pile of crap, and a quick view at a few articles in the humanities suggests why.

On the other hand, if a system like this works, it could easily be extrapolated to all areas.--Filll (talk) 23:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Filll, quite seriously, you will be very much at home in Citizendium. It's a good project, but rather slow moving, and could use some help. I'm there occasionally myself for the change in atmosphere. Why dont you join also? DGG (talk) 04:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

DGG, I responded to you when you suggested this before. Did you see it and see fit to respond? If you want to get into this, let's really do it someplace, although this might not be the best place to clog with such things. And actually, why do you personally not leave Misplaced Pages and join Citizendium? After all, you have no problems with anonymity clearly. (I am sorry if this seems uncivil or offensive in any way I do not intend it to be so.)--Filll (talk) 15:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, there is nothing wrong with people who see the merits of both places, editing in both places. I think it is even widely encouraged. Of course, not everyone will be able to (or welcome to) edit Citizendium, or wish to edit under their real name, so there will always be that problem. Carcharoth (talk) 15:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes thanks for the observation about the humanities. How true that is, and of Philosophy the truest, sadly. On Citizendium, I have an account there and made some contributions, but there is nothing like writing Medieval philosophy, say, and getting #1 on Google. It took about a month before google even recognised the existence of the equivalent article on Citizendium, and it is far from #1. User:Renamed user 4

Theres something about this proposal which I find quite unsettling. Such a content ArbCom would have a lot of power to shape the tone of the encyclopaedia. What we might find is powerful grouping emerge to get their own candidates onto the committee. In effect this could transform a lot of small disputes into one big "presidential" election with all its associated drama.

The obvious current equivalent is WP:RFC. Of the many discussion processes on wikipedia RFC's seem to be one of the weakest. Are there any ways in which the RFC system can be improved? Would fixed cut off dates, transcluded sub-pages (as in AfD), or a change in format help?. --Salix alba (talk) 11:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal: Draft Suggestion Paper

After we have collected a suitable number of ideas on these pages, I propose that we draft a "suggestion paper" including a summary of the main ideas, and their advantages and disadvantages.--Filll (talk) 17:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

After streamlining, in depth discussion, and refinement of the ideas then yes(I'm guessing you mean that) that would be a very progressive move. Jefffire (talk) 17:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes of course. We need a lot more ideas and a lot more discussion and refinement. Once we collect the ideas and have some ideas about what the advantages and disadvantages are of each, we would have something that others could consider for possible implementation. A position paper. And THEN if we were able to get the attention of someone in a position of authority, some of them might be considered for testing or implementation.--Filll (talk) 18:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I've put my thoughts on the talk page. Not quite sure what the difference is between this page and that. Carcharoth (talk) 19:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Great idea! See below. Raymond Arritt (talk) 15:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Referenda, Plebiscites

I have wondered if there was a way to get more voting on Referenda or Plebiscites by Wikipedians, and to draw more attention to issues and get more input. We can get a fair amount of voting on Arbcomm votes and on RfAs. Can we get more voting on Referenda and Plebiscites? What about an announcement at the top of the watchlist page during the voting period? What about an announcement in the Misplaced Pages Signpost?

Some of these issues we are discussing here need more input and more publicizing.--Filll (talk) 23:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You could try {{Cent}}. This discussion is big enough now to justify being a centralised discussion, IMO. Also, look at Category:Misplaced Pages discussion. Off the top of my head, the places people suggest advertising something include: WP:VPP, WP:AN (I know, but still), WP:MAIL (ie. the wiki-en mailing list), and as you say, the Signpost and watchlist announcement - the latter is very unlikely though. Carcharoth (talk) 15:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal : Reliable sources guidelines written by each project

I dreamed this up last night. Haven't reflected very long on it though... But it seems workable. WAS 4.250 (talk) 14:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good, but it relies on the projects being "good" and not taken over by, well, I won't use the word being bandied about, but those who are convinced of their views, which are not the mainstream science POV. ie. It relies on the projects being populated by experts who come up with good guidelines on reliable sources. How good are the WikiProjects for the various sciences anyway? Carcharoth (talk) 15:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

That is why some have suggested anchoring whatever we do to (1) outside academic experts or panels etc (2) an "elite" of experts who have dropped anonymity here and have identified and allowed their credentials to be verified. That would help considerably. I apologize if this suggestion is viewed as uncivil or offensive in any way andn I apologize to anyone who is offended.--Filll (talk) 15:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds very reasonable. No need for anyone to be offended, though they might disagree, of course! I generally agree, with the proviso that people will get upset if the expert or panel are, or appear to be, arrogant and dismissive. Diplomacy is needed in this sort of environment, even under severe provocation. Carcharoth (talk)

This could well backfire. Any attempt to pay formal respect to expertise -- and especially, credentials -- is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. Raymond Arritt (talk) 15:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Draft of essay / position paper

I've started User:Raymond arritt/Expert withdrawal/Draft where we can begin summarizing the main points from our discussion. You'll note that I've couched the issue in slightly different terms. My original choice of "expert" as a shorthand for "person grounded in reality" has led to some misunderstandings: we're not concerned with creating more deference to experts, but with creating less deference to those with fringe views. In this spirit I've chosen to title the essay "Challenges to the integrity of Misplaced Pages." (Some might prefer "Coping with kooks," but that's a bit over the top...) I think the essay will work best if it's concise and as non-confrontational as possible. Raymond Arritt (talk) 15:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Should we put some diff's in to show some of the problems? For example, diffs from long term disruption in part of editors that are eventually banned. It might make for a more compelling case. If we would do this, it might be good to split up the work over a variety of topics. Just an idea. Baegis (talk) 20:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

We need to make this more visible

In order to bring attention to this, I suggest creating a boilerplate to display on the article pages that indicate that experts in the subjects have refused to edit the article until the community helps resolve the problem. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that is a bad idea for several reasons. Seems to violate WP:CANVAS and WP:POINT as well as being either inaccurate or worthless as any truly accurate statement that "users x, y, and z are not editing this article because they are not getting their way" is just going to be laughed at. WAS 4.250 (talk) 17:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

If pro-science editors boycotting articles actually doesn't harm them, then that's a lot of time a lot of editors will have back. Review User:PouponOnToast/EW. It is not a violation of WP:POINT to not take action, it is not a violation of WP:CANVAS to ask people to not fix problems. PouponOnToast (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that placing a boilerplate will do a lot to make the issue more visible. It is not a violation of WP:POINT for us to place something like this on the page:

Various Wikipedian experts are on strike from editing this article until an effective policy for dealing with disruptive editors is implemented. Please note that content here may not be verifiable nor neutral. Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page.

It's not appropriate for the article page, IMHO. Talk is a different story. PouponOnToast (talk) 17:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's appropriate for any Misplaced Pages article at all. ~ UBeR (talk) 19:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Tagging articles with documented off-wiki canvassing

Piggybacking on the above idea, I would throw out there that we should have a article-talk-space tag indicating when an article has been the subject of documented off-wiki canvassing to promote a particular POV. For example:

There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article. If you've come here in response to such recruitment, please review the relevant Misplaced Pages policy on recruitment of editors, as well as the neutral point of view policy. Disputes on Misplaced Pages are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote.

Off-wiki canvassing is a frequent occurrence; this recent example on homeopathy comes to mind, but I could just as easily produce calls for motivated fringe-POV-pushers on AIDS denialism or intelligent design, among many others. It might be useful to tag high-risk articles with links to the off-wiki canvassing; if nothing else, the heightened visibility might lead to the canvassing postings being taken down. MastCell 18:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)