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Can we please maintain some neutrality about this article? It is ridiculous to mention Northern Epirus everywhere Albania is mentioned. There are Greek minorities in the region, but this does not make it part of the territory of Greece. As far as the treatment of the minorities goes, if the Greek minorities in Albania were treated like the Albanian minorities in Greece, Greece would probably declare war on Albania. I have friends who live in some of these villages of southern Albania and they would consider themselves to be of Greek descent. They do speak Greek and Albanian, and although they are not loved by the rest of the Albanians (due to relations with Greece), they are not mistreated. At the same time, there are many more Albanians (having been born in Albanian territory, who consider themselves such, are seen as such by the Albanian government, do not speak Greek, etc) and it would be entirely wrong to classify them as Greeks simply because the Greek government and population desires it. Dori 17:44 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)
-It's only fair to take into consideration Greece's right to land claims in Epirus when Albanians do the same for land in Yugoslavia.(ie:Montenegro, Kosovo, and Macedonia)
-I agree. If Albanians want a greater Albania, they should relinquish where the majority of people speak Greek or have a Greek conscience (in the case of many Vlachs). The current boundaries of the state of Albania, drawn by the Great Powers of the day to serve their interests, do not reflect the reality of today and need to be redrawn. ^^^^ptsourkas
- The fact that the number of Albanians living in Greece has increased from virtually nil in 1990 to nearly 1 million today shows that they are well treated and welcomed by Greece. Nearly all of them have jobs and, even though they are recent immigrants, they fully participate in Greece's generous social security system, and in the nearly free healthcare system. By contrast the ethnic Greek population of Northern Epirus (representing in 1990 some 20% of the total population of Albania) has dwindled in numbers in the past decade due represssion fueled by the nationalism of the Albanian government. Let us not forget that Albania is a country with a questionable human rights record and inconsistent application of the rule of law. By contrast, Greece is a full fledged democracy that earned EU membership 25 years ago.
- Do the Albanians really use the expression "Northern Epirus"? It surprises me a bit, honestly.--Aldux 13:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- I removed it. i had not noticed it earlier. the Albanian government rejects the usage of that term, with the pretext that it implies territorial claims. quite the contrary, they use the term 'Tsamouria' for Epirus by implying nationalistic claims. since the term 'Northern Epirus' is the one used by the greeks and, in some cases, in the english-speaking world (not sure about other languages), the term in Albanian is not relevant here. About the citation u asked concerding the fact that the region is predominantly Greek Orthodox, i can't really understand if it can be disputed: the greek minority (whether it numbers 3% or 12%) is concentrated there. the Aromanian minority (also greek orthodox, and included in the 12% figure that i said above) is also there. the Tosk albanians (a great number of whom is greek orthodox) resides in the albanian south, while the predominantly muslim Ghegs live in the north... i doubt if someone can say the opposite. --Hectorian 13:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- About the Albanian name, OK. About religion, it remains unsourced, and could easily be untrue. Personally, I believe that the majority are atheist. I'll remove it until it is sourced. --Telex 14:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- Hectorian, less than 2/3 of Albanians in Albania are Tosk. Orthodox accounts for 20% of the population, and Catholicism for 10% (mostly in the North), so please do not act as if you know something when you in fact know nothing. And by the way Albanians are not part of the Greek Orthodox Church, but The ALBANIAN Orthodox Church, founded by Fan Noli because a GREEK Orthodox priest refused to officiate at the burial of an Albanian in Hudson, Massachusetts on the grounds that, as a nationalist, the deceased was automatically excommunicated. --PG-Rated 22:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Isn't this article going a bit astray?
Don't misunderstand me, its much better than before, but it's also getting out of topic. Wouldn't it be better to reduce this articles and create a Minorities in Albania? Much of the content of the article goes well beyond Northern Epirus, as Greco-Albanian relations or the Greek minority in all Albania.--Aldux 22:27, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The Flag of Greeks in Albania
Why is the Albanian two headed eagle randomly placed on the flag? They are Greeks right? --PG-Rated 22:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'll remove the flag. What is often perceived as the flag of the Greek community in Albania (e.g. ) is in fact the flag of the government of Northern Epirus . The double-headed eagle on the flag has nothing to do with Albania, but it is a popular symbol amongst Greeks (for example, it appears on the emblem of the Greek Army and used to be on the national emblem etc).--Tekleni 22:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The Flag
The double headed eagle happens to be the old flag of the Empire of the Greeks or as it was known in western Europe Imperium Graekaorum. (Nowadays known as Byzantine Empire, a term never used by any "Byzantine"). So that's why the double headed flag is so important to Greeks, it's the national medieval symbol of Greece as a nation.
The Byzantine Empire persecuted specially the Greek and this well known, in the other hand the double headed eagle is very old pelasgic emblem more then 4 thousand years old found in Tepelena. The northern Epirus organization in reality is formed by arvanitas to protect their right in Greece then it turned agained their own people. The actual Greece flag is imported by the Germany for your artificial state. Dodona
No Dodona. The Byzantine empire prosecuted the Byzantines (or Romioi, or Greeks or whatever you want to call them) that "Elinizane" meaning the pagans or people trying to bring back the old religion. That is why Emperor Ioulios (or Julius) was called the "paravatis" (or outlaw) and Theodosios was called the "o megas" (the great). ] (talk) 03:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)nefeligeretis]
Pelasgians are Pelasgians not greek,not albanian The firt bicephalous eagle was founded in Asia Minor Hittite
Flag agin
To the anons who keep adding a makeup flag, please note the following: what you are adding is not the flag of the Greek community; the Greek community does not have a flag. What you are adding is the flag of the provisional state of Northern Epirus (see ) and it did not include the Albanian double headed eagle, it was the Byzantine eagle. I agree that the flag of the temporary state should be included if we include data on it. See also the other posts on this page. //Dirak 14:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The Byzantine Empire persecuted specially the Greek and this well known, in the other hand the double headed eagle is very old pelasgic emblem more then 4 thousand years old found in Tepelena. The northern Epirus organization in reality is formed by arvanitas to protect their right in Greece then it turned agained their own people. The actual Greece flag is imported by the Germany for your artificial state. Dodona
Recent Edit
Permission has been given to reproduce text from Phantis. Permission can be shown on request.
Regards,
Φilhellenism 14:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Fundamental bias
“Orthodox Christian Albanian-speaking Greek-identifying community in Greece – migrated from this region to present-day Greece in the Middle Ages.” Are originally Albanian which came from Epir therefore autochthones there. The epir has nothing to do with Greeks no mater how Arvantas identify themselves.Dodona —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.78.74.68 (talk) 17:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC).
Territory or what?
This article doesn't seem to be about a region at all; it's wholly concerned with an ethnic community, viz. the local Greek minority. What are the boundaries of this region? What are its main towns, area and population, sites of interest, main rivers and mountains? Can we see a map of the region? Best, Q·L·1968 ☿ 19:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
concerned about the neutrality in this article
This article sounds like a right-wing Greek nationalists favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece. What is North Epirus? Who is the president? I have marked this article as NPOV, since it contains glaring omissions and factual inaccuracies and has a completely pro-Greek wording which doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages. We should present facts neutrally and not praise one people or another.--Thank you.MD.Brian (talk) 05:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Its referenced and presents many views from both parties and third parties regarding the populations involved.Megistias (talk) 08:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hi there. Would you care to elaborate on your claim that the article is not neutral? The article nowhere calls for the unification of Northern Epirus with Greece. It doesn't even imply that. So how does it sound "like a right-wing Greek nationalists favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece"? Epirus is a geographic region in the Balkans. The southern part is called Southern Epirus, the northern part is called Northern Epirus. Like North and South America. Simple as that. It is not a country, so it does not have president (although it was an independent state between 1918-1923). You also state that the article contains glaring omissions and factual inaccuracies. Could you give a few examples? And what about the claim of "completely pro-Greek wording"? Examples, please. The article essentially covers the Greek minority in Albania. The existence of this minority is a fact, despite the most determined attempts by the Albanian government to minimize it as much as possible. Here's what the article does state: In the introduction, the article defines the concept of northern Epirus, and what it is most known for (the foustanella, and the Arvanites). Following this, the article discusses the definition of the Greek minority by the Albanian government, as well as its relation with the Vlach minority (who do indeed identify as Greeks. See relevant article). No bias so far. The next few paragraphs present the various estimates regarding the size of the minority. All sides are presented, including the dubious numbers of the Albanian government (you will notice there is actually no recent census figure, as the Albanian government deliberately omits questions on ethnicity or ethnic consciousness on the census in order to deny the existence of minorities). So this section cannot be accused of bias either. Next, the article discusses the political treatment of the minority, including all relevant incidents and the somewhat heavy-handed response of the Greek goevernment. This is discussed in a calm, objective manner, with neutral wording, and thus this section also seems pretty neutral to me. The article then discusses how the existence of the Greek minority has affected the relations between Greece and Albania, and again does so in a neutral manner. The article then highlights some famous memebers of said minority. Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere, does it praise one people over another. Where do you see evidence of that? There are minorities in most countries of the world, and Albania is no exception. It just so happens that this minority happens to be Greek (maybe because they're neighbors?). It seems to me that from what you wrote and the tone you use, that you are somehow opposed to the notion of a Greek minority in Albania. That is irrelevant to this article. You added the neutrality tag, so the burden of proof is on you to provide examples of bias in the article. If you fail to do so I will remove it. --Tsourkpk (talk) 09:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Its referenced and presents many views from both parties and third parties regarding the populations involved.Megistias (talk) 08:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Fillim i ri - Νέο ξεκίνημα.
Me too,I think it did sounded like a right-wing Greek nationalists (not the real Greeks) favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece. Go watch shows Greek crimes (which in my opinionate are Greek nationalist criminals) in Epirus against Ethnic Arvanites - Albanians. Epirus was part of Albanians and Greeks. Let’s add more friendship between these two nations, not the war and not the hate. In some way is better for Greece too, you never heard of Albania invading Greece,maybe the Italians. We have so much in common, maybe we have the same ancestors, who knows, we have fought together side by side.(at least my great grandpa and his dad did) --Taulant23 (talk) 20:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC) p.s.I make the best souvlaki and tzatziki ever.
- How about making an attempt at correcting what you think is wrong with the article instead of posting irrelevant messages about 'Greek nationalist crimes' and 'Greek-Albanian friendship'? Sure, good sentiments (let's pretend, despite your general behaviour) but still irrelevant. 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- The existence of a Greek (and Greek-idnetifying Vlach) minority in the southern regions of Albania, especially in the areas of Himarra, Saranda, Gjirokastar, Permet, and Korce is a fact, pure and simple. Before we continue, this has to be accepted and understood. To deny the existence of this minority and make noise about "Greek nationalist crimes" in some YouTube video is in itself nationalism, as well as a diversion. The only debate, as far as I'm concerned, is over the size of said minority (which is admittedly tricky to estimate). I do not understand why some Albanian editors feel so threatened by the existence of a Greek minority in southern Albania/Northern Epirus (which I use SOLELY as a geographic expression, no offense to anyone). The Greek government has never, ever, called for the annexation of the Greek minority areas to Greece, and neither does this article. As far as I know, most Greek people are against opening the can of worms of border changes, and only wish for the human rights of the Greek minority to be respected, as should be the case in a country that desires to become a member of the EU. The current treatment of the Greek minority in Albania by the Albanian government is unfair to say the least and reveals an intense paranoia. --Tsourkpk (talk) 07:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)