Talk:Polygamy - Misplaced Pages

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I am being oppressed by Anti-Polygamists

By Researcher 15:18, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Added to all the other evidence of how anti-polygamists are trying to destroy everything I post, I discovered that someone has just recently tried to hide the evidence even more deceitfully.

On July 8, 2005, I laid out more evidence, titled, "The Sneaky Vandal Attacked This Wiki AGAIN". The next day, someone ANON fully deleted the specific evidence that it spelled out. They were trying to prevent people from seeing how truly oppressed I am here.

A little more than an hour after that, someone then made an extremely hasty call for a "vote for deletion" of the anti-polygamy article, knowing that a bigoted yet uniformed anti-polygamy POV majority would be glad to do anything to prevent polygamy from being truly NPOV presented. I had created that anti-polygamy article as a means of solving the anti-polygamy POV so destroying the neutral polygamy article, but instead of discussing that solution, I get so attacked!

It is bad enough that Nereocystis has unilaterally wiped out my every work THREE TIMES without ever justifying the edits or following the Misplaced Pages Guidelines of STATUS QUO and then TALK in controversial topics, and that no one is willing to stop that proven sneaky vandalism yet. Nereocystis does not even know about important things on polygamy while I bring a wealth of knowledge that is not even being allowed to be heard. I have not done anything wrong while Nereocystis is allowed to violate rule after rule, even got caught lying, and they still are being allowed to destroy everything I try to contribute. That's not right!

These latest attacks of unapologetic POV are just wrong! Really, it has to stop.

When I first asked for help about these problems, System admin Tom Haws told me on May 16, 2005, "Don't get discouraged. If need be, we can ban editors for blatant misbehavior. And we can help you in discussions of content if need be." But that has not ever happened yet.

Instead, I have been repeatedly abused and the alarms I sounded about the anti-polygamy sneaky vandals would do to me in my original pleading, they have done. I have given my sincerity to Misplaced Pages by being patient all these months understanding that solutions can take time. But the longer this goes on into month after month without any of that help being given to me, the more I am instead being attacked and oppressed. It is becoming discouraging and a fulfillment of the May 7, 2005 Foxtrot warning about Misplaced Pages I had previously mentioned.

PLEASE ADMINS, help! I have been showing my true patience for these past months in asking for a solution, but instead of getting any help yet, the anti-polygamy attacks are only getting worse. PLEASE HELP!

Researcher 15:18, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

The Sneaky Vandal Attacked This Wiki AGAIN

By Researcher 8 July 2005 16:11 (UTC)

ADMINS PLEASE HELP!

As I have been asking for over two months now, this wiki desparately needs assistance in preventing the sneaky vandals from destroying it and from rv'ing valid edits from being made.

I have repeatedly asked that we follow the Wiki Guidelines of starting from STATUS QUO for such controversial topics. Yet every time I try to get the wiki back to that point so that a real conversation can THEN begin, the sneaky vandal Nereocystis comes in and destroys the work, as an outed anti-polygamist who has been admitted to not even knowing fundamental elements of this subject. THEN, they advance the proven-disingenuous claim of wanting to TALK, when they are the ones refusing to TALK from within the Wiki Guidelines. As I have repeatedly said, if they want to TALK, they should follow the Wiki Guidelines and let us TALK from the STATUS QUO position, not after their sneaky vandalism. (Numerous evidence has been provided about all this.) But Nereocystis has never even once been willing to work or TALK about anything I have done, instead only destroying my work at every single opportunity to a complete destruction, no matter how many times I even tried to accommodate their additions. They are a one-way POV anti-polygamy agenda, intent on using sneaky vandalism to deliberately mis-inform wiki readers about the neutral term of polygamy.

Nereocystis caught breaking word

Now there is even further proof right here on the TALK pages of Nereocystis's total dishonesty in presenting falsehoods. One need only look to how quickly Nereocystis broke their word.

On 09:02, 20 June 2005, Nereocystis said, "Without Researcher99's support, we will end in big edit wars, constant reversions, and calls for blocking editors. With Researcher99's support, polygamy may look better. I'll try to avoid major edits for a while, while waiting for Researcher99's support. I may continue to make less controversial changes, if I can figure out what those are." But no sooner had I returned 10 days later to make the valid corrective edits again, Nereocystis outright broke that word to hold off. While I might not know about elsewhere, but where I come from, that's called lying, plain and simple.

TWICE now, Nereocystis has wiped out entire valid work

Once again, the repeatedly outed sneaky vandal Nereocystis has destroyed all the valid work I have done. Twice, now, they have completely removed all the valid work I did.

1. All the completely valid edits I made from 19:09, 6 June 2005 through 20:20, 6 June 2005 were wiped immediately wiped out by the outed sneaky vandal, Nereocystis.

2. When I made those important edits again, providing full explanations of their undenmable validity, the sneaky vandal did it again. Every edit I made from 14:24, 30 June 2005 through 16:38, 30 June 2005 was again wiped out by Nereocystis.

Look at each of my 18 valid edits being wiped out

In that second attempt of those edits, I made the reasonings even clearer as I made them. Here is the list of thos last edits that were wrongly wiped out by Nereocystis.

14:24, 30 June 2005 (→Forms of polygamy - Again, Polygamy is not group marriage.)
14:45, 30 June 2005 (→Group marriage - Created subsection with greater accuracy and brevity)
14:54, 30 June 2005 (→External links - Remove ANON commercial SPAM ad for book previously online for free from other site. ANON posted: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Polygamy&diff=13530246&oldid=13529954)
14:59, 30 June 2005 (→Bibliography - Removing SPAM ads also posted by the same ANON. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Polygamy&diff=next&oldid=13530246 NOTE: tiny inapplicable self-pub books not valid Biblio)
15:02, 30 June 2005 (→External links - Joseph Smith is NOT the "founder" of MODERN polygamy - he was only that for MORMON Polygamy.)
15:04, 30 June 2005 (→External links - Remove link here so as to then move it to the Mormon section as it is more specific and should be there.)
15:05, 30 June 2005 (→Mormon polygamy - Moved WivesOfJosephSmith.org to this more applicable Mormon section)
15:10, 30 June 2005 (→External links - ANON not really Jewish Polygamy. When some other site is about this, tho, THAT would then apply. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Polygamy&diff=13735676&oldid=13735596)
15:15, 30 June 2005 (→External links - Per TALK, Removed link due to Scope & Scale SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Polygamy/Archive_2#Tapestry_Against_Polygamy)
15:17, 30 June 2005 (→External links - Removed link due to Inflammatory Generalization & Self-admitted Irrelevance. SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Polygamy/Archive_2#Hope_for_the_Child_Brides)
15:21, 30 June 2005 (→Patterns of occurrence - Corrected false & hostile-implication over-generalization)
15:28, 30 June 2005 (→Mormon polygamy - Clarifying that most modern polygamists oppose anecdotal "connections" and that "all" polygamy is not necessarily Mormon polygamy.)
15:39, 30 June 2005 (→Multiple divorce and marriage for polygamy - To keep this paragraph on-topic with its subheading)
15:42, 30 June 2005 (→Multiple divorce and marriage for polygamy - Removed content not applicable to the subheading title, as prep for move of applicable portion to another section)
15:44, 30 June 2005 (→Multiple divorce and marriage for polygamy)
15:54, 30 June 2005 (→Mormon polygamy - Relocate appropriate segment that was removed from "Multiple divorce and marriage for polygamy" section)
15:59, 30 June 2005 (→Multiple divorce and marriage for polygamy - Removed unnecessary sentences, for simplicity of this Subsection's actual CONTEXT. This is not a "Tom Green case" wiki.)
16:38, 30 June 2005 (→Definitions - Anti-polygamy is a non-neutral agenda. Started this simple way to bring readers to THAT new resource if that is what they seek. Now, anti-polygamy should refrain from this wiki.)

I tried to accomodate by creating a new wiki: "Anti-polygamy"

That last edit was a new idea of mine, sincerely attempting to provide a place for anti-polygamists to present their agenda debates, yet including pro-polygamist responses in order to keep it NPOV. It does not take a genius to realize that polygamy is a neutral anthropological term while anti-polygamy is a decidedly non-neutral agenda. For that reason, it is clear that the polygamy term needs its own wiki as the anti-polygamy agenda and debate needs its own wiki. So, with that last new edit, I was trying to provide a solution even for the agenda items of anti-polygamists to be presented along with the actual "anti-polygamy debate."

Nereocystis wiped it all out

I ask one and all to look at each of those edits and to follow the details/explanations/urls included. There is definitely no legitimate basis whatsoever for summarily wiping out all of that valid work. But Nereocystis has done that to me, not once, but twice!

Only one day after I had re-made those demonstrably valid corrective edits, Nereocystis then, at 17:05, 1 July 2005, wiped out all that work yet again. They added the falsehood, "rv Researcher99's changes, which he refuses to discuss on talk page." (I never refused to TALK. I had asked for it from the very beginning, but that sneaky vandal has never been willing to accommodate any of my work whatsoever except only to totally destroy my work. It is only now that I will only TALK according to the Wiki Guidelines of STATUS QUO position for controversial topics, with anyone who is honest and proves they will work with me, not only destroy all valid work and destroy the wiki with mis-information.)

Just 3 Minutes later, The_Anome "appeared"

Then, just three minutes later, a new person suspiciously showed up on the scene, The_Anome. and then makes an edit to the "Definitions" header of the polygamy wiki. About that section, The_Anome asserted, "good, this appears to be a stable-ish version, rm-ing top hdr so first section is above TOC." The heading change is not a big deal, but to claim that section is "stable-ish" three minutes after Nereocystis had wiped out my work, which included that section being corrected (by me) on the "group marriage" issue, that is a problem, and it makes that edit suspicious (especially after seeing what happened next).

At first glance, one might suspect that The_Anome may not have realized that so fresh an Rv had just occurred. But if that were the case, The_Anome's edit would have been made based on my last edited version prior to it being Rv'ed again. Additionally, The_Anome's anti-polygamy POV becomes obvious by what The_Anome did next.

After making that edit in the polygamy wiki along with the the "stable-ish" claim, The_Anome next went over to the new Wiki I had created, Anti-polygamy. (If The_Anome had only seen the Rv'ed version, they would not have seen the link to that new wiki I had made. So, to have seen that link is to have known about it outright.)

As the evidence shows, it was only one minute later that The_Anome went to the other new wiki and changed the name in order to limit and reduce the purpose of that new wiki. Instead of Anti-polygamy, they changed it to Opposition to polygamy. As the TALK page at that new wiki and the introduction section of the article explained, the purpose of that new wiki was to report on how "Anti-polygamy" is a non-neutral agenda (as opposed to the neutral anthropological term of polygamy) and to have a place for reporting issues relevant to the "anti-polygamy debate."

Two minutes after that, The_Anome then further sought to minimize that by removing the important explanatory section of the difference between polygamy and anti-polygamy. Another two minutes later, The_Anome made a post to the TALK page there, saying, "This is seriously POV: I've reworded the intro, and added an NPOV header."

Three more minutes after that, Nereocystis showed up there on that same TALK page, saying, "I don't understand this article. Is there any value to the article at all. I'm tempted to think that it should be deleted. It is extremely POV and mostly incoherent."

The_Anome and Nereocystis proven as Anti-Polygamous POV

Only deliberate POV anti-polygamists seeking to prevent wiki readers from knowing that polygamy is a neutral anthropological concept while anti-polygamy is a non-neutral agenda would make those obviously false claims. The point had very clearly been made in the original version I had made in creating that new wiki, but the POV anti-polygamists were trying to change the name and hide all that so to then then "pretend to act innocent" in asking "what is the point" of the wiki.

The timing of those two obvious anti-polygamist POV posters (Nereocystis and The_Anome working together at the very same moments) is highly suspicious, much in the same way that it appears that the now-gone Ghostintheshell is probably the same person/group as Nereocystis.

Once again, Nereocystis is here being outed for the hostile anti-polygamy POV agenda on this wiki. Even after I tried to provide a place to provide such anti-polygamy ideas (with that new wiki), because those agenda-ideas do not belong in the polygamy wiki itself, Nereocystis is still trying to make sure that wiki readers do not get to know the true issues. As their last quote shows, Nereocystis's intent for all that is to try to get it or keep it removed, so that wiki readers are not so informed.

These 2 very serious evidences call for Nereocystis's removal

Anyway, that outed sneaky vandal has now been clearly proven

to have lied about not editing so the discussion could proceed
to have twice Rv'ed very valid and explained edits to the polgamy wiki.

I continue to ask the ADMINS to please remove the proven outed POV anti-polygamist sneaky vandal, Nereocystis, so that the wiki can be edited by serious NPOV researchers.

Near STATUS QUO, my re-made edits should be kept intact. THEN, we can have an honest discussion about any/each issue

I am putting these edits back in place once again. If any serious discussion is to occur here at TALK, the edits I make must be kept intact while we discuss each of the issues. With those kept intact, then we can TALK first about which ever of the above-listed 18 edits needed to be discussed for subsequent revision. But we must start any TALK from the STATUS QUO position, not after sneaky vandalism.

I am hopeful that when I check back here in a bit that the Admins will have had an opportunity to have finally solved this very serious problem.

Thank you.

Researcher 8 July 2005 16:11 (UTC)

Please consider Talk:Polygamy#Proposal_for_moving_forward_and_roll_call_of_present

Please consider joining the roll call and poll in Talk:Polygamy#Proposal_for_moving_forward_and_roll_call_of_present. Voting either for or against the proposal could move us forward in resolving the conflict. Nereocystis 17:10, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

If you wish to resolve disputes, please look at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. You might want to get a member advocate. Nereocystis 19:28, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

3rd Opinion

Okay, first thing I want to say is that this Talk page as I found it frightened me. It was very, very, long! I've archived most of it as it was a mangled mess and took forever to load. So from now on I beg for brevity!

I'd really like to hear from Researcher what it is he wants to change, and then from other folk why they resist these changes. Please, stay cool, don't start replying to each other, just make your cases and let them speak for themselves! Dan100 22:30, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Dan. I, too, will love to see that. Tom Haws 23:07, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Dan. It does seem to have calmed down for a while. I hope that the calm remains. I put the disputed tag back into the main article, because the text of the article is still disputed, even if the disputes have been resolved. I'll start making the changes to the main article soon. It may take me a few days to a week to make all of the necessary changes, then remove the disputed sectionl. After that, I will try editing for style. Thanks, Dan. Nereocystis 17:47, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

By moving the important warnings and proofs of the numerous sneaky vandalisms done to this wiki by Ghostinthshell and Nereocystis over to the Archive 2, everyone is now less informed of seeing the real problem and the numerous itemized destructions they have caused. As this keeps going without correction back to STATUS QUO, Nereocystis has continued to make even more and more destructions. How many times do I have to list out the numerous destructions and wait in what seems to vain for someone to stop their vandalism, only to hear someone to ask me agin to list out all the numerous problems again? And even when I do, we hear that reading all the problems is too much to read and it is removed from public reading? Truthfully, there is no real or legitimate dispute here. Nereocystis is an anti-polygamist sneaky vandal who does not follow the Wiki Guideines, who has manufactured the supposed "Dispute" by creating all their sneaky vandalisms. I have also repeatedly pointed out the WIKI GUIDELINES REQUIRE STATUS QUO], but instead Nereocystis keeps being allowed devastate the wiki with their numerous sneaky vandalisms. Those big sections I posted really need to come back here to TALK, otherwise it is proverbially like giving credibility to the terrorist, while the honest citizen has to waste time over and over repeating the proven crimes the terrorist committed. What do I want? 1.) The critically important wanrings moved back to the top of this TALK page. 2.) The article back to STATUS QUO as according to the Guidelines. THEN and only then can a real and factual discussion about the sneaky vandal's supposed "disputes" can be made. Please help. Thank you. Researcher 11:40, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I sincerly regret it, but after lurking for a few weeks, I am still clueless about this big conflict you are taking about. I am going to have to carefully read the essentials, I guess. Please tell me if I am correct that the Sneaky Vandalism section is what I need to read. Tom Haws 16:35, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Dear Tom Haws, I very much appreciate your attempts to help here. Yes, the EVIDENCE needs to be read. There is no legitimate basis for discussion with Nereocystis who has made it clear that they are not here to make a positive contribution. Please read on this TALK page, the Sneaky Vandals Have Destroyed This Wiki. That will also outline three very important evidence-pieces which Dan100 has subsequently hidden by archiving. (Due to his allegations of "troll" and other comments here, I now also distrust Dan100's obvious partiality, unwilling to actually address the evidence of the destructions that Nereocystis/Ghostintheshell has done.) The other three pieces (now-hidden in Archive) that need to be read as evidence are:

# The Ghostintheshell Situation

# Solution Needed for Gangs of Sneaky Vandals

# Sneaky Vandals' Anti-Polygamy Destruction of Polygamy Wiki

Those three are outlined and then linked in the "Sneaky Vandals Have Destroyed This Wiki" section on this TALK page here. So, you will want to read that first, and then, when finished, click the links there to read the three now-hidden evidence-pieces (in the Archives).

Over and over, Nereocystis has made it clear that they are out to destroy anything I do, while adding non-applicable propaganda to the polygamy wiki. As I mentioned in the "To understand this situation, the Evidence MUST be Read First" subsection of the "Sneaky Vandals Have Destroyed This Wiki" section on this TALK page here, Nereocystis even recently wiped out every edit I made yet again.

All of my edits made from 19:09, 6 Jun 2005 through 20:20, 6 Jun 2005 were once again attacked by the sneaky vandal. Less than 2 hours later, Nereocystis proved my point and utterly wiped out all of the work I had just done at that time. Nereocystis then used that false premise they concocted of suggesting the need to "TALK" first, even though it was Nereocystis who had been the one to ignore that very call from me in the first place!

Over and over, I have shown how Nereocystis does not even know the topic. This is someone who tries to assert that group marriage is polygamy, tried to push "gay polygamy," does not know who the national polygamy advocate is, tries to push the specifically-anti-polygamy-only propaganda of trying to connect polygamy to underage marriage, insists on making the polygamy wiki about Tom Green, and has been outed by the evidence as a clearly POV hostile anti-polygamist seeking to pervert the wiki from accurately informing the readers.

There is SO much evidence, yet when I post it all, Dan100 comes in and tries to hide it by archiving it and then asking me to list out the evidence yet again! The problem is I have been repeatedly abused by Nereocystis/Ghostintheshell (probably one and the same person/group) who does not know this topic and is outright trying to sabotage it, and I have been awaiting ADMINS to remove the abusers so the wiki can be restored.

I understand the need for Admins to take time in their actions. For that reason, I am not willing to be here everyday like I used to. Otherwise, until this is solved by the ADMINS and the abuser(s) Nereocystis/Ghostintheshell (probably the same person/group) stopped, they will only continue to abuse me here. I am not willing to put up with abuse. So, for now, I only come back every week or two, looking with hope to see if the ADMINS have solved this yet so that I can be free from abuse to bring my wealth of research on this topic to the benefit of the wiki. So, please, I earnestly ask you, please read all the evidences. (To not do so says that all that a sneaky vandal has to do is commit numerous attacks that are too many list so that, when they ARE listed, the one listing them can be falsely accused of being "too voluminous" in listing out the evidence! Also, for others to attack me for putting all that linked EVIDENCE together without their even reading the EVIDENCE is like attacking a material witness and their overwhelming evidence while choosing to deliberately ignore all the evidence presented.) So, please, DO read the evidence. It IS important. I would very much appreciate that. When an Intellectual Researcher such as myself can be valued instead of abused by those who do not know the topic, I will be glad to be here frequently again. I look to the ADMINS to solve this very serious problem. Thank you, truly. Researcher 30 June 2005 14:07 (UTC)

I have been participating, and I don't understand the conflict. I have asked for another Third Opinion. Researcher99's editing frequency is low enough that some people thought that the conflict was resolved. It isn't, obviously. I would like to discuss the disputes, topic by topic, under Talk:Polygamy#Disputed. So far, there has been little discussion there. Please. I'm willing to back my most recent edits out and discuss the changes, but they have to be discussed. I made the latest round of changes after Dan100 encouraged me to make the changes after a lengthy quiet period. Like Dan100, I would like to see a list of proposed changes, and a reason for each of these changes. Nereocystis 18:00, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Short analysis. Researcher99 and I disagree on the text of Polygamy. Furthermore, we disagree on how to resolve this dispute. This is where outside help is needed. How should we resolve our disagreement? Nereocystis 19:47, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And there was me, thinking this had settled down nicely... Dan100 (Talk) 17:00, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Proposal for moving forward and roll call of present and alert editors

OK. I have now read much of the history. Here are my recommendations:

Forget all personal issues and allegations of past misconduct so we can focus anew on content.
Do a roll call to be sure there are seven or more editors present and alert, including Researcher, Ghostintheshell, and Nereocystis.
After roll call, start again to Be Bold within the 3RR rule and Discussion context. All seven editors agree to pay attention and evaluate each edit carefully.
If editing gets hot, all seven editors agree to give weigh in on their preferred content.
As always, seek to build and defer to consensus.

- Tom Haws 17:29, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Roll call and poll (7 supporters needed).

Support Even if I do say so myself. Tom Haws 17:29, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Support. Please. GhostintheShell hasn't been around since early May, It is worth trying to get him/her involved again, but it may not happen. Researcher is sometimes quiet for a few days. I suggest allowing at least a week for him to respond. Nereocystis 18:16, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Seven editors? Where'd that come from? You won't find seven editors active on one page anywhere on WP.

Nereocystis is free to edit the article as he sees fit within WP policies and guidelines. Researcher is free to object if he feels Nerec is breaking those rules - that's what I've invited him to do below. Dan100 (Talk) 21:37, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

7 editors is a bit optimistic, but we'll take what we can get. Misplaced Pages:Lds/polls, which has some relationship to polygamy, sometimes gets 7 votes. 3 votes would be good, including Researcher99. Without Researcher99's support, we will end in big edit wars, constant reversions, and calls for blocking editors. With Researcher99's support, polygamy may look better. I'll try to avoid major edits for a while, while waiting for Researcher99's support. I may continue to make less controversial changes, if I can figure out what those are. However, it has been nearly 2 weeks since Dan100 requested a description of the changes which Researcher99 wants to make. I still haven't seen the description. Nereocystis 09:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There does come a point when you have to start regarding an editor as a troll. If all an editor wants to do is kick up a fuss on the Talk page without putting forward suggestions or attempting to compromise with others, there's no point in feeding him. Serious editors must continue edit the article as they see fit and revert the troll. Dan100 (Talk) 10:45, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Help was requested here, and it's hard to understand exactly what the problem is without seeing it in action. 7 is optimistic, but I want to get all the key players plus two or three outside observers watching before we start this up again. There is no use in trying to resolve this with only three unless two adversaries agree that the third is impartial. I agree, we'll take what we can get, and there is no hurry at all. I have a page dispute (Human) that has been going on for 8 months and I haven't even viewed the page for over a month. Patience and faith. Tom Haws 15:04, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Researcher99 isn't a short-lived troll, it if is a troll at all. S/he has been active on polygamy since November 2004, a few days after my first edit, though s/he probably started anonymously a few days earlier. If s/he is willing to talk, life will be easier. Without agreement, there will be edit wars, people giving up in frustration, or banning. Sooner or later, I will start editing again. Nereocystis 19:40, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. I've just checked Researcher's contributions - he seems to edit at roughly ten day intervals. I don't think that should stop the progress of an article. So I urge Nere to continue his work, and if Researcher objects, he'll have to present a more coherent argument (as I have invited him to below) and also stick around for more than just one day! Other than that, what is there to say? Dan100 (Talk) 20:56, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Researcher99 made massive changes on the article page again. He has also written an anti-polygamy article which doesn't really make sense. Since Researcher99 refused to discuss the changes on the talk page, and since I disagree with a large number of the changes, I reverted all of his changes. Strangely enough, the latest polygamy changes don't show up in my watchlist. Are there bugs afoot. Where do we go from here? Nereocystis 1 July 2005 17:12 (UTC)

Where do we go from here? Researcher99 has read this section. He has quoted my hopes for his support. However, he has not given his support to Tom Haws's suggestions. He hasn't opposed the suggestions either, but has ignored them. Unfortunately, he is continuing to engage in edit wars without discussion. I'm not happy with continuously reverting his ill-advised changes, but I don't see any alternative, until he is willing to engage in a resolution to the problems. I will try to write up a description of why I don't like most of his changes, but it may take a few days. I may find that a couple of Researcher99's changes are acceptable, but most of the changes don't fit in this article. Nereocystis 8 July 2005 18:01 (UTC)

I'll pause in my reverts for a while. As I said, some of Researcher99's suggestions are sound, though may require editing. However, his edits on Polygamy#Multiple_divorce_and_marriage_for_polygamy are particularly bad and include incorrect information, without citation. I'll provide specifics when I get a chance. Perhaps tonight, perhaps this weekend. Nereocystis 8 July 2005 19:01 (UTC)

Sneaky Vandals Have Destroyed This Wiki

By Researcher 16:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As I had written previously, my fears and concerns about sneaky vandals futher destroying the polygamy wiki has only continued to come to pass and even worsen. After one sneaky vandal named, Ghostintheshell, committed sneaky vandalism, they were soon followed, like a tag team, by another and more destructive sneaky vandal, named, Nereocystis, committing numerous destructions to the polygamy wiki. (On a side note, that tag team might very well be the same person, but that's not the point of this post here.)

Through the process of this situation, I have presented extensive evidence, here in TALK, demonstrating their sneaky vandalisms. Without seeing all that evidence first, one cannot possibly understand what has really happened here in this wiki. Unfortunately, though, all of that crucial evidence was re-located to Archive2 by Dan100, who thought the entire TALK page was getting too lengthy. What Dan100 may not have realized was that, by doing so, the most important proofs and warnings about the sneaky vandals was thereby inadvertently hidden, while keeping a manufactured and false set of supposed "Disputes" by the sneaky vandal named Nereocystis.

The so-called "Dispute" was manufactured after Sneaky Vandalism

When reading the crucially important evidence, it becomes clear that the supposed "Disputes" manufactured by Nereocystis came after Nereocystis had sabotaged the wiki with an editing rampage. As the crucial evidence shows, Throughout, I sought Wiki Guidelines: STATUS QUO until TALKed. (I have said it numerously, frequently re-iterating this point that All the Sneaky Vandalism should be Rv'd back to STATUS QUO so that it can be TALKED first.) But instead, Nereocystis came in with an editing rampage, destroying the wiki further with exhaustingly numerous sneaky vandalisms. After causing so much destruction, that was when Nereocystis manufactured the idea of there being supposed "Disputes" here and so concocted the subsequent false notion that they supposedly want to follow the Wiki Guideines to TALK about the "Disputes." Rather than follow the actual Wiki Guidelines of getting back to STATUS QUO before TALKing, as I had long been calling for, Nereocystis was "suddenly" willing to TALK only after they had committed all their destruction and sneaky vandalisms.

To understand this situation, the Evidence MUST be Read First

So, the sneaky vandal has created a false premise, in order to justify preventing corrections to their sneaky vandalism. My fears about that were proven yet again after I had sought to even make a few more corrective edits, knowing that there were numerous more edits to eventually make. All of my edits made from 19:09, 6 Jun 2005 through 20:20, 6 Jun 2005 were once again attacked by the sneaky vandal. Less than 2 hours later, Nereocystis proved my point and utterly wiped out all of the work I had just done at that time. Nereocystis then used that false premise they concocted of suggesting the need to "TALK" first, even though it was Nereocystis who had been the one to ignore that very call from me in the first place!

So, to really understand the situation here fully, the evidence which has previously been posted here in TALK really MUST be read first.

For simplicity, I will simply provide the outline and applicable links to each of three archived postings of all of that crucially important evidence.

1. The Ghostintheshell Situation (outlined)

This first section of evidence was posted 00:57, 7 May 2005. It provides the full story and timeline of the first of the sneaky vandal tag team, Ghostintheshell (who most likely is the same person or group as Nereocystis.) To understand Nereocystis's recent actions, it is crucial to understand how Nereocystis "returned" to the wiki at the end of the situation with Ghostintheshell.

Here is the outline of that first section of evidence.

The Ghostintheshell Situation
- Why this timeline
- Throughout, I sought Wiki Guidelines: STATUS QUO until TALKed.
- Ghostintheshell breached MANY Wiki guidelines
- Unknowledgable & Short-Term vs. Knowledgable & Long-Term
  - --> Ghostintheshell
  - --> Researcher99
- Begins with Subsection, "How Polygamists Find More Spouses"
- Ghostintheshell Arrives & Declares Intent for Edit War
- Trödel Arrives, Rv's to STATUS QUO, says NPOV
- Trödel Returns, Again Rv's to STATUS QUO
- Trödel Returns, Makes Rv's but with duplicative content
- Ghostintheshell AGAIN Declares Intent for Edit War
- Trödel Rv's to duplicative version and 3RR-block occurs
- Final Posts
  - Evading the "Block," Ghostintheshell Becomes "TheRedandtheBlack"
  - 2 days later, I ask for patience to prepare this outline
  - Admin Visorstuff affirms Muslim polygamous families in West exist ("Issue#2")
- All 3 of Ghostintheshell's "Issues" Already Resolved
- Ghostintheshell was a "Ghost - in - the - shell" -- NOT REAL

Click here to read that entire section in Archive2.

2. Solution Needed for Gangs of Sneaky Vandals (outlined)

This second section of evidence was posted 14:42, 16 May 2005. It points out Nereocystis's "return" to the wiki, as a tag team sneaky vandal to follow Ghostintheshell (who most likely is the same person or group as Nereocystis.) It shows the editing rampage that Nereocystis had begun. It points out the real problem and need for a solution that sneaky vandals will now prevent any intellectual researcher such as myself from making edits, as they will simply destroy any legitimate work people like myself would do for the polygamy wiki.

Here is the link and outline of that second section of evidence.

Solution Needed for Gangs of Sneaky Vandals
- (We should not reward bad behavior or allow misinformation)

3. Sneaky Vandals' Anti-Polygamy Destruction of Polygamy Wiki (outlined)

This third section of evidence was posted 23:54, 27 May 2005. This comprehensive section provides a crucially important warning for all wiki contributors to understand the tactics of anti-polygamists. It provides the detailed evidence completely "outing" Nereocystis as an actual hostile POV anti-polygamist, pretending to be for polygamy only as a disguise so as to fully destroy the wiki with erroneous information, i.e., sneaky vandalism. (Hostile anti-polygamists and Nereocystis obviously do not want this crucially important warning and "outing" to be readily visible to polygamy wiki contributors. Yet it is imperative that it be visible and understood.)

Here is the link and outline of that third section of evidence.

Sneaky Vandals' Anti-Polygamy Destruction of Polygamy Wiki
- Setting this Warning to Help this Controversial Wiki
- "Polygamy Imposters" - Anti-Polygamists Often Pretend to be "Pro-Polygamy"
- Forcing "Underage" issue "Outs" the "Polygamy Imposters" as Anti-Polygamists
  - Normal Polygamists oppose "underage" issue
  - Normal Polygamists try to be heard by media
  - Media Bias denies Normal Polygamists from being heard
  - "Underage" issue is only Anti-Polygamy Propaganda
- Unqualified "Anti-Polygamy" Sites Sneaked in to the Polygamy Wiki
  - "Anti-polygamy" links first appeared
  - Sneaky Vandals Sneaked the removed "anti-polygamy" links back in
    - Ghostintheshell
    - Nereocystis
    - Anti-polygamy "tag team" successfully destroyed polygamy wiki
  - Why those "Anti-polygamy" sites are not qualified
    - Tapestry Against Polygamy
      - Scope
      - Scale
    - Hope for the Child Brides
      - Inflammatory generalization
      - Self-admitted Irrelevance
  - Pushing these "Anti-polygamy" Sites promotes "Underage" Propaganda
- All the Sneaky Vandalism should be Rv'd back to STATUS QUO
  - Ghostintheshell's supposed "issues" were Resolved anyway
  - Nereocystis's Edit-Rampage Manufactured "Disputes" to Falsely Justify STOPPING the Wiki
  - Wiki Guidelines call for STATUS QUO anyway
- For Misplaced Pages's Sake, We Must Stop the Sneaky Vandals
  - Foxtrot Comic Equally Notes Misplaced Pages's "Sneaky Vandal Problem"
  - So, I share my Intellectual Assets to Protect Misplaced Pages
  - Intellectual Researchers must not be Sabotaged by Sneaky Vandals
  - Let's Solve This and Protect Misplaced Pages's Future

Click here to read that entire section in Archive2.

Sneaky Vandals Preventing Legitimate Edits and Don't Really Want to TALK

One subsection of that last section repeated what really needs to occur. It also shows why.

All the Sneaky Vandalism should be Rv'd back to STATUS QUO
- Ghostintheshell's supposed "issues" were Resolved anyway
- Nereocystis's Edit-Rampage Manufactured "Disputes" to Falsely Justify STOPPING the Wiki
- Wiki Guidelines call for STATUS QUO anyway
For Misplaced Pages's Sake, We Must Stop the Sneaky Vandals

As I have long been saying, allowing the sneaky vandals to continue, it makes it impossible for intellectual researchers like myself to stop their sabotage and to help the wiki be valuable. As I warned, any edit that someone like myself will make will be sabotaged. Nereocystis proved my very point on that yet again after my last activities here two weeks ago, when they once again wiped out all of the work I had done to the wiki, immediately after I had done it.

Nereocystis Proven Disingenuous about "TALKING"

Nereocystis has no intention of actually wanting to follow the Wiki Guidelines, despite their "suddenly" new and absolutely disingenuous calls for wanting to TALK about their manufactured "Disputes" first.

Nereocystis has not once stopped in their outrageous editing rampage of destruction to the wiki, continuing on week after week with more and more edits throughout all of this.
If Nereocystis truly believed in wanting to TALK first, they would be advocating that we follow what I have been calling for in the first place: to get back to the STATUS QUO that existed before their editing rampages of sneaky vandalism rather than afterward, as they now "suddenly" demand.

That second item there really proves the heart of the matter here.

If Nereocystis genuinely wanted to follow the Wiki Guidelines and TALK first, then they would be fighting FOR what I called for originally: that we should return the wiki back to the REAL STATUS QUO before all their tag team sneaky vandalism and then we can honestly start TALKING from there. But because Nereocystis only wants to do that after all their sneaky vandalisms while trying to act as if I am somehow not wanting to follow the Guidelines, it proves their disingenuousness completely.

Because of all this, it is useless to TALK with such an "outed" hostile anti-polygamist POV sneaky vandal such as Nereocystis. (Besides, their supposed "Disputes" were only manufactured after the fact, anyway!) So, time has proven that TALKING has proven to be useless with them. I've tried before and it has only yielded this overwhelming consumption of my time as they play these sneaky anti-polygamist tactics. For me, to do so now is like trying to negotiate with a terrorist. It simply cannot be done. They have made it clear that they will accept nothing short of continued destruction of the polygamy wiki.

Mentally Unhealthy and De-Motivating to TALK with Unapologetic Abusers

Also, it is mentally and emotionally unhealthy for anyone to let others cause such a constant state of abuse as these sneaky vandals have caused, as in my experience here recently. Once an abuser is absolutely proven to be an unapologetic abuser, they are never worth my time. I am too healthy for that. Truly, intellectual researchers such as myself are not motivated to put up with it or to want to return to the wiki if that is all that can be expected to occur. So this is not only about me. This is about how all other mature, emotionally healthy intellectual researchers such as myself will ultimately decide whether it's really even worth their time to offer any quality help to Misplaced Pages. If allowing abuse to continue is the policy, Misplaced Pages loses.

For Wiki Sake, These Solutions Need to Happen

Truly, if nothing is done, then more and more of us mature intellectual researchers will instead start choosing to avoid Misplaced Pages. After all, mature and healthy people have no desire to sustain protracted periods of abuse.

So, for the sake of the polygamy wiki, therefore, the following really needs to happen.

The Wiki Guidelines about "not acting reckless" in this contorversial topic must be followed. That requires TALK discussions to start from the STATUS QUO position - not after someone else has committed sneaky vandalism.
The original STATUS QUO of the polygamy article needs to be restored without attack from sneaky vandals.
The entire Sneaky Vandals' Anti-Polygamy Destruction of Polygamy Wiki section should be restored to a prominent position in this TALK page, so as to warn and educate all contrubutors on how to spot anti-polygamists with hostile POV trying to edit the wiki destructively.
Sneaky vandals, such as Nereocystis, need to be removed from contributing further.
Then the rest of us who want to make honest legitimate contributions may be glad to do so, without having to deal with much more mentally-unhealthy abuse.

It is my sincere hope that this situation can be resolved and that Misplaced Pages will once again be the great value I had once thought it to be!

Researcher 16:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, the first thing that linking to 'sneaky vandalism' a dozen times is not going to help your case. It just looks... a little odd. Keep cool and calm.

The second seems to be that the issue you are upset about here is that someone edited this page. Well, that happens on wikis. "Be bold" is not a suicide pact.

Finally, if you have a content related dispute here, please concentrate on that and that alone. You can only object to edits or existing content if they break the core content rules of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:Cite sources.

If you do wish to make objections under those policies, please keep them brief and clear. Writing vast reams of text does you no favours. Dan100 (Talk) 17:31, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

I support all that Dan100 has said. Tom Haws 03:39, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Changes

I will list changes which I make here, along with an explanation. This might make editing the polygamy article easier.

Reverting Researcher99's changes

Researcher99 recently make a large number of changes. For months, I have been trying to engage Researcher99 in discussion about these changes. It has refused. I disagreed with many of the changes, and reverted. I am willing to provide more details for the reversions, if anyone wants the details. Nereocystis 1 July 2005 18:03 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Researcher99 has made his changes again, and refuses to discuss the changes, and hasn't joined Tom Haws poll, either for or against. Nereocystis 8 July 2005 17:30 (UTC)

For all readers: the above Nereocystis post was made after I provided a full explanation of what needs to happen. In that post of mine, it exposed how it is Nereocystis who has been wiping out all my valid work due to their outed hostile anti-polygamy POV. There is not a single legitimate valid basis for the sneaky vandal to be summarily wiping out so many quality edits. So there really is no doubt. I have called for Wiki Guideines to be followed from the beginning and seek a real solution to Nereocystis's sneaky vandalism. - Researcher 8 July 2005 17:58 (UTC)

Current proponents and critics

I removed references to opinion of Christian fundamentalists and Human Rights Activists. I want specific examples of the people who fall into these categories along with their opinions. I left in LDS opposition, and will try to find a reference to justify leaving it in. I know that this isn't 100% consistent. I also removed the line:

Compare monogamy and concubinage.

I don't know what it means; it doesn't seem to belong here, and probably doesn't belong anywhere. Nereocystis 1 July 2005 18:03 (UTC)

Christian opposition to polygamy

The legal section Polygamy#Legal_situation refers to the legality of polygamy. Some Christians opposition to polygamy does not effect the legality of polygamy. The best place for the opposition of some Christians opposition to polygamy is under Polygamy#Current_proponents_and_critics. Yes, you're right, it is difficult to figure out what goes where. We're working on organization now. Also, it is very important to remember that not all Christians oppose polygamy, even where it is illegal. We have to work on NPOV here, which has been a real problem in the past. It would be helpful if you provide a reference for Christian opposition to polygamy. What type of Christians follow these rules? Is it primarily the fundamentalists? I previously removed a section for proponents and critics because it claimed that Christian fundamentalists are opposed to polygamy, but didn't provide a reference. This changes make it easier to understand why some Christians oppose polygamy, but a reference would be very nice. Nereocystis 7 July 2005 17:27 (UTC)

Bible-believing

Hi, Timandkids! Welcome to Misplaced Pages. I apologize for reverting your edit. But it was kinda biased, though I can see your point. What might work better is to say something like "some Christians, based on XYZ statement in the Bible, feel a duty to avoid polygamy regardless of their personal beliefs about it." I'm sure you can do better that that, but hopefully you get the idea. If this is confusing, you might try reading WP:NPOV. It's really a great article. Tom Haws July 8, 2005 04:20 (UTC)

Hi, Timandkids. The point is okay to make. But we have to use unloaded language. Many Christians would be offended to be excluded from the description Bible-believing, but wouldn't agree with your conclusion. Therefore we have to modify the phrasing to reflect that point of view. Tom Haws

This is the very type of exmaple of anti-polygamy argument paragraph (being made by Timandkids) that was in my mind when I had first first created the new Anti-polygamy wiki. Their paragraph is not rally abot polygamy the neutral term of polygamy, but rather it is about the non-neutral agenda and debate of anti-polygamy. Because of that, that kind of anti-polygamy argument paragraph really would be more appropriately moved to that other wiki there, Anti-polygamy. Then, the pro-polygamy response to that "anti-polygamy debate" (such as found at the "Law of the Land" page at BiblicalPolygamy.com) could also be presented. Doing that also simplifies the two wikis ("polygamy the neutral term" vs. "anti-polygamy the non-neutral agenda and debate") as it separates the issues into more concise and readable chunks. - Researcher 8 July 2005 16:33 (UTC)

We have a section for proponents and critics. It's very reasonable to state opposition to polygamy here. I prefer quoting a specific critic, rather than saying "some Christians" oppose polygamy. Timandkids tends to use POV language, but we can try to correct that. Similarly, Researcher99 tends to use POV language. I don't see any advantage to the Anti-polygamy article. There isn't a coherent topic there yet. Nereocystis 8 July 2005 17:16 (UTC)

For all readers: With all the vast amounts of evidence and pure NPOV I have provided, it is no surprise that an outed anti-polygamist would attempt to falsely accuse me of things I have not done (e.g., POV) and to seek to discredit the Anti-polygamy wiki as supposedly "incoherent." Any intelligent brain can easily understand what that other wiki is truthfully about. And such an intelligent brain can also easily see that the anti-polygamy agenda and debate is far too distracting to be used on the main polygamy wiki. All readers here should realize that it is a matter of course that a hostile POV anti-polygamist like Nereocystis would seek to prevent their hostile non-neutral agenda from being moved to its own wiki to present the anti-polygamy debate on its own. Such a hostile anti-polygamy POV wants only to continue to distort the true neutral term of polygamy, rather than be exposed for the non-neutral agenda which their anti-polygamy really is. This is just more proof that this proven sneaky vandal, Nereocystis, needs to be removed from further destroying the wiki. I hope the Admins can solve this very serious problem. - Researcher 8 July 2005 17:47 (UTC)

A few points to consider:

I have lately noticed that some newer users tend to use the term "wiki" to refer to articles or areas of Misplaced Pages. I have heard "Mormon wiki" previously, and here I am hearing "Anti-polygamy wiki". In my mind this diminishes the gravitas associated with the project of building an encyclopedia. To help us maintain the proper attitude toward our work, I respectfully request that we refer to articles as such, and to Misplaced Pages as such, or as the Encyclopedia.
Splitting articles on POV lines is discouraged. Breaking out an anti-polygamy article, if done with a proper understanding of Misplaced Pages policies and objectives, can be useful if there is enough content to discuss the anti-polygamy movement. But creating an anti-polygamy article as a holding tank for antagonistic views is inappropriate. We are encouraged to seek to represent all views fairly in NPOV articles rather than keeping parallel POV articles.
Personal attacks are not appropriate at Misplaced Pages, and we are admonished to assume good faith. I urge all editors present to focus their attention away from each other and toward the article in their comments.
Finally, I agree with Nereo's comments about the two articles and I appreciate his efforts to follow Misplaced Pages standards. I also appreciate R99's dedication to this subject and his willingness to invest significant time and effort toward improving this corner of Misplaced Pages. We can find ways to represent all views fairly in a single article. We must do it. Let's keep trying.

--Tom Haws July 8, 2005 18:19 (UTC)

Tom Haws, above, you wrote, "* Splitting articles on POV lines is discouraged. Breaking out an anti-polygamy article, if done with a proper understanding of Misplaced Pages policies and objectives, can be useful if there is enough content to discuss the anti-polygamy movement. But creating an anti-polygamy article as a holding tank for antagonistic views is inappropriate. We are encouraged to seek to represent all views fairly in NPOV articles rather than keeping parallel POV articles."

It appears that you did not understand what I did in creating tha anti-polygamy article. It also appears that Nereocystis hastily jumped on your misunderstanding to delete the link to that new article for what you otherwise seem to be approving.

To assist your understanding here, I was not dividing into two articles on POV lines. Rather, I was dividing between the neutral anthropological polygamy and the non-neutral agenda and debate of anti-polygamy. Information about polygamy/polygamists is not a POV, it is neutral anthropological information. Anti-polygamy is pure POV, as is the POV response of pro-polygamy. For two articles, the first (polygamy article) would be completely NPOV by having no POV for such an obvious neutral term. The second (anti-polygamy article) would also be completely NPOV by having both POV sides of the debate presented.

Accordingly, I see your next quoted sentence therefore as actually showing your approval for what I was seeking to get started. An anti-polygamy article could very much become a sizable article of its own, and it would be very relevant too. For example, if you analyze it directly, TimandKids edit did not actually inform the Misplaced Pages reader about anything about polygamy itself. Rather, all the edit did was show one argument in the anti-polygamy debate. But that still does not actually inform about polygamy itself. So, that edit should not really be in a neutral anthropological polygamy article. However (and further showing that I have always been dedicated to true NPOV), I do see a valid place for Misplaced Pages readers who choose to investigate "why" some people disagree with polygamy: the anti-polygamy article I created. In that kind of anti-polygamy article, TimandKids anti-polygamy POV argument could be presented and the resulting pro-polygamy argument/response (as the edit I tried to make about it) could also be presented. That would be both POVs presented in the non-neutral anti-polygamy agenda/debate article, while the neutral NPOV anthropoligical polygamy article only informs about polygamy/polygamists itself.

When searching to understand about polygamy, people want to know about polygamy and polygamists. People already know there are anti-polygamists. So when they are looking for information about polygamy, they do not need to be distracted with the anti-polygamy agenda and debate at that point. But if they want that information too, then they can proceed to the anti-polygamy article too. Because that would allow both sides of POV, the Misplaced Pages reader, who chooses to research that extra anti-polygamy information too, would also be educated about both sides of the debate. But until they seek that out, the non-neutral anti-polygamy POV distraction has no real valid place in the neutral anthropological polygamy article itself.

Your concern about article size is also not a problem in any way. (Currently, the single polygamy article is so long, filled with anti-polygamy agenda POV, that when you edit the entire page, a red-font warning tells you that it is already too large.) As well, the "Proponents & Critics" section in the polygamy article can not sufficiently address or identify the complete anti-polygamy agenda and debate. Even if it could (which it cannot), it would have to be so much volume that it would overdominate the polygamy article in general, making the article even longer than it already excessively is.

An anti-polygamy article would also not be too short. For an example of Bible arguments alone, take a look at BiblicalPolygamy.com. At one point or another, anti-polygamists would post the anti-polygamists arguments they present (just as TimandKids recently did). And all the pro-polygamist responses to the specific arguments (as you can see there are many of them at that above web-site) could be added too. Considering the many pages of response arguments at that above web-site, for just one example for my point here, the anti-polygamy article will not be short of content, at all. There are that many pro-polygamy responses because they are responding to that many attempted anti-polygamy arguments. Plus, there are other arguments that are not even Bible-related too, so you know the anti-polygamy article will eventually attain quite a size of its own.

So I was not creating parallel POV articles at all. It is not accurate to think of it as polygamy vs. anti-polygamy. Rather, polygamy is neutral and the anti-polygamy debate is the non-neutral Anti POV vs Pro POV.

For these reasons, I was genuinely providing a valid solution for all concerned with this second article creation. (Well, it would be received as valid for all except by the purposely hostile anti-polygamists who want to hide their agenda and therefore make up deceptive excuses to not allow the second article.)

Since this solution I offered falls within the parameters to which you yourself were here approving, it is my hope that you can stop the hastily-made "call for deletion" of the anti-polygamy article. I also hope that you will also stop the anti-polygamists from continuing all their personal attacks, including the summary-deletion of every edit I make to the polygamy article.

I really would like to be able to edit without the never-valid rv's coming from hostile anti-polygamists who openly do not even know this subject matter. Despite how many times my edits have tried to accommodate even the anti-polygamists, I have never received such a good faith act back to me from them. (While Nereocystis's "apology" below is the very first time they have ever indicated something postive toward me, their "words" mean little until a true good faith action supports positivity toward me. As long as my multiple edits are not restored and THEN we TALK, as according to Wiki Guidelines, such "words" remain empty and do not qualify as "good faith acts." While the "apology" is a good start, it is still a start without substance, at this point.) But no, I have never received any accomodation or good faith act from the anti-polygamists. This all proves that it is they, not me, who are the personal attackers, the ones violating Wiki Ettiquette, refusing the Guidelines of STATUS QUO for controversial topics, and refusing to allow me to edit anything.

So, no, anti-polygamists have made it impossible to present polygamy in a single article fairly without their hostile POV agendas infesting it. As such, the only true NPOV solution is to have the two articles as I have proposed. It's the truest NPOV method available, and everyone can have a valid voice.

If the anti-polygamists had followed Wiki Guidelines and actually TALKED with me instead of destroying or deleting everything I do, this intent for the newly-created anti-polygamy article would have been immediately realized. But then again, their hostile POV and personal attacks against me never wanted to TALK or act in good faith with me in the first place, because their outed agenda is to sneakily mis-inform Misplaced Pages readers about polygamy. My solution of two articles moves to preventing that and yet still allows even anti-polygamists a voice too. True fairness and NPOV for everyone.

I am hopeful, Tom Haws, that you will begin to free me from the oppression of the POV anti-polygamists. There is nothing "fairly represented" about having all my truly-valid edits summarily wiped out and no one protecting me from such obvious personal attacks. It would be nice to be allowed to actually provide my wealth of knowledge here again.

If you can help, I truly thank you.

Researcher 16:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

TimandKids addition, as edited, discusses a POV against polygamy, which is appropriate to discuss when it is labeled as a POV. That's why it is listed under critic and proponents. Researcher99's addition to this section are quite reasonable. The entire paragraph may be too wordy, but I don't see how to change it yet. I apologize for my earlier comments about Researcher99's POV. I will try to limit my comments to very specific passages which are POV, rather than calling all of the changes by a person POV. Nereocystis 8 July 2005 19:58 (UTC)

Anti-polygamy

I deleted this paragraph:

While polygamy is a neutral term as per the definitions above, anti-polygamy is not neutral at all. The important distinction is that anti-polygamy is a non-neutral agenda and debate.

As Tom Haws has explained, splitting the anti-polygamy site from polygamy is an attempt at splitting off all of the POV from the main article. This is a bad idea. Let's discuss it before bringing this section back. Nereocystis 9 July 2005 03:25 (UTC)

Mormon polygamy

I changed this section:

Another major concern has recently arisen with the discovery in a very small number of Mormon polygamy groups that some women were brought into these polygynous relationships prior to the age of consent, meaning that some men may be committing statutory rape.

to this:

Some Mormon polygamists marry women prior to the age of consent.

The sentence is shorter, and clearer. "A very small number" is somewhat misleading. There are at least 3 or 4 of the Mormon polygamist groups which marry prior to the age of consent.

This paragraph:

In 2005, the state attorneys-general of Utah and Arizona issued a primer on helping victims of domestic violence and child abuse in Mormon polygamous communities. (The primer addressed no other forms of polygamy.) Enforcement of other crimes such as child abuse, domestic violence, and fraud were emphasized over the enforcement of anti-polygamy laws.

was turned into:

In 2005, the state attorneys-general of Utah and Arizona issued a primer on helping victims of domestic violence and child abuse in Mormon polygamous communities. Enforcement of other crimes such as child abuse, domestic violence, and fraud were emphasized over the enforcement of anti-polygamy laws.

I removed this sentence:

(The primer addressed no other forms of polygamy.)

which is unneccessary.

I deleted these paragraphs:

Most modern polygamists and polyamorists oppose such other crimes, and they frequently point out that it is hostile propaganda to illogically connect such anecdotal situations as if representing all forms of polygamy.

Taking that context even further, it also should be noted that, while Mormon polygamists did (and do) practice polygamy, Polygamy does not equal Mormon Polygamy. There are various other forms, including Christian polygamy, Muslim polygamy, secular polygamy, etc. While some of the above legal situations may have occurred within a handful of specific Mormon polygamy groups, those situations are not representative of other forms of polygamy, nor even representative of all other groups of Mormon polygamy.

This sounds extremely POV.

The polygamy article lists a number of different forms of polygamy, many of which are not Mormon. There isn't a need to state that not all polygamists are Mormon. We don't need to repeatedly state that most polygamists don't do X.

Nereocystis 9 July 2005 03:25 (UTC)

Multiple divorce and marriage for polygamy

I reverted this paragraph:

Since only one wife is married to the husband at any one time, no law was being broken and so this type of polygamous family unit could be overt about their relationship. In 2001, however, the state of Utah in the United States convicted Tom Green of criminal non-support and four counts of bigamy for having 5 serially monogomous marriages, while living with previous legally divorced wives. Having used that system of multiple divorce and marriage to defraud the state's welfare system, his cohabitation was considered evidence of a common-law marriage to the wives he had divorced while still living with them. As that case applies only to Utah, it is therefore not a nationwide precedent on common-law marriage and polygamy. However, it does show the risks in using the system of multiple divorce and legal marriage and why many polygamists avoid it.

to this:

Since only one wife is married to the husband at any one time, no law was being broken and so this type of polygamous family unit could be overt about their relationship. In 2001, however, the state of Utah in the United States convicted Tom Green of criminal non-support and four counts of bigamy for having 5 serially monogomous marriages, while living with previous legally divorced wives. His cohabitation was considered evidence of a common-law marriage to the wives he had divorced while still living with them. That premise was subsequently affirmed by the Utah Supreme Court in State v. Green, as applicable only in the State of Utah. Green was also convicted of child rape and criminal non-support. In 2005, the state attorneys-general of Utah and Arizona issued a primer on helping victims of domestic violence and child abuse in polygamous communities. These states are emphasizing enforcement of crimes of child abuse, domestic violence, and fraud over the enforcement of the crime of polygamy. The priorities of local prosecuters are not covered by this statement.

Deseret News article about Tom Green

The reverted version was listed under disputes for quite a few weeks without comment. If change is desired, please discuss it on the talk page.

This clause is incorrect and does not have any trustworthy citation:

It was Green's crime of criminal non-support which initiated the case in that one state.

Researcher99 provides a reference of an interview with Mark the Founder of a ministry, perhaps truthbearer.org, where the founder says that Green was prosecuted because of criminal non-support. It is not clear who "Mark the Founder" is, or why one should trust his view on this issue. I don't consider this a valid reference for resolving the question of why Tom Green was prosecuted. However, I am willing to listen to a reason why I should trust Mark the Founder, and why this should be believed over the word of the prosecutor in the case.

David O. Leavitt was the prosecutor in the Tom Green bigamy and child-rape cases. He is no longer the Juab County Prosecutor, but he states the reasons for his prosecution of Green. While Leavitt mentions government support, he claims that it is not the reason for the prosecution. Look at this ReligionNewsBlog article:

I agree that not all polygamists, sexually or otherwise, abuse children. I understand that some don't scam the government. But the harm to society and to innocent individuals is so great that even the exceptions cannot be justified. The U.S. Supreme Court in 1879 rejected polygamy, stating that monogamy is the only acceptable form of marriage because it preserves our culture and our families.

In another page which claims to be from a Reuter's article, Leavitt says:

whenever someone confesses to commission of a felony on national television in my jurisdiction I'm going to prosecute him

These two quotes provide evidence that Green's prosecution was not because of criminal non-support, but because:

Green publicly talked about his polygamy
Anyone guilty of polygamy should be prosecuted.

Can Researcher99 provide evidence which support his view?

Nereocystis 9 July 2005 03:25 (UTC)

Mormon fundamentalists - aggregate in communities

I deleted the following section:

Due to the Mormon revered texts of Doctrine & Covenants 132 and subsequent pronouncements making polygamy an "appointment" for obtaining religious rewards in heaven (D&C 132:40), women in such fundamentalist Mormon communities often marry polygamously as a requirement for their path toward becoming better off in the afterlife.

Historically, it was this implicit lack of choice for women in the specifically fundamentalist Mormon polygamous situations, that caused many anti-polygamists to inaccurately equate all polygamy in general as somehow being against women. With such added hostility from Western society for such "no-choice-for-women" premises, Mormon polygamists find it simply easier to aggregate into their own private separated communities and retain their privacy.

D&C132:40 does not require all women to submit to polygamy, though parts of D&C 132 do require Emma Smith to submit to polygamy. While some of the Mormon fundamentalists seem to force polygamy upon the women, not all of them do. Many Mormon polygamists, past and present, oppose such forcing of polygamy upon women, so let's not list it here. The second paragraph is particularly POV and opposed to Mormon fundamentalist polygamy.

If these sentences were reworded to say that some Mormon fundamentalist women are pushed into polygamy, with references, I would accept the sentences. In fact, a section on polygamists finding more spouses should probably mention forced polygamy as one method, but only if it fairly treats all Mormon fundamentalists. Nereocystis 01:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Moved Catholic opposition to "Proponents and opponents" section

I moved this section from Polygamy#Non-Mormon_polygamy to Polygamy#Current_proponents_and_opponents:

Today, the Catholic Church clearly condemns polygamy; the Catechism of the Catholic Church lists it in paragraph 2387 under the head "Other offenses against the dignity of marriage" and states that it "is not in accord with the moral law." Also in paragraph 1645 under the head "The Goods and Requirements of Conjugal Love" states "The unity of marriage, distinctly recognized by our Lord, is made clear in the equal personal dignity which must be accorded to man and wife in mutual and unreserved affection. Polygamy is contrary to conjugal love which is undivided and exclusive."

My image of the article is that the Polygamy#Polygamy_and_religion section mentions religions which practice polygamy, and the Polygamy#Current_proponents_and_opponents section mentions opponents. However, this division may be artificial. Perhaps "Polygamy and religion" should be changed to "Practicing polygamists". If "Polygamy and religion" includes sections on opposition to polygamy, then "Proponents and opponents" should have a pointer to the former section. Help is welcome here. Nereocystis 01:20, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Polygamy#Polygamy_and_religion

I moved "Patterns of occurence" and "Polygamy and religion" under the section "Polygamy worldwide". I don't know if this really makes sense. There may be too much under one heading. "Polygamy worldwide" really should be rewritten a bit, with a reference to the original work which includes the report of 850 of 1170 societies practice polygamy. I perused this article once, and thought it was interesting. Religions definitely should be included under societies. Please comment if this seems odd, or even if it doesn't. Nereocystis 01:41, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Polygamous societies & Ethnographic Atlas

I found a more direct reference to Murdock's Ethnographic Atlas, and took data derived directly from the Ethnographic Atlas, about monogamous and polygamous societies. I also split out societies with occasional polygyny from societies with more frequent polygyny, which gives a more accurate indicationof the frequency of polygany. Nereocystis 14:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Denial that all polygamists have certain behavior

Researcher99 often states that many polygamists are against certain things practiced by some polygamists, for example statuatory rape. Do we need a section which states something like this:

Many polygamists are against the following:

marrying women younger than the age of consent.
opposition to women
forced marriage
no-choice-for-women

I'm not sure that we need it, but I don't want to same comments repeated in the article. This could reduce some of the repetition of denying what some polygamists do. Nereocystis 9 July 2005 02:55 (UTC)

I think that may be a good idea. Tom Haws July 9, 2005 03:30 (UTC)

Anti-polygamy article considered for deletion

The anti-polygamy article is being considered for deletion. If you have an opinion on the deletion of the article, vote soon. I'm skipping a vote, but want people interested in polygamy to be aware of the vote for deletion. The vote ends soon. Nereocystis 17:28, 18 July 2005 (UTC)