Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Valjean (talk | contribs) at 17:10, 17 February 2008 (→Game over: deleting abusive comment by banned user Davkal). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This has all been discussed before: Misplaced Pages:Expert retention, Misplaced Pages:Expert rebellion. Please also see the discussions taking place on the talk page: User talk:Raymond arritt/Expert withdrawal.

Some description of the problem for the uninitiated

This was presented for the benefit of User:Tparameter at the talk page of User:Raymond arritt"

"Expert" was the best shorthand term I could think of for "rational, well-informed person." Although most of the people who have raised issues do have expertise relevant to the topics in which they're editing, they're more than happy to work with well-intentioned novices. I'll gladly help people whose knowledge has some gaps but are coming at an issue in a constructive way (see for example this exchange). It's dealing with aggressive POV-pushers and Kozmik Kadetts who are convinced they have The Truth that gives people fits. Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Tparameter, let's take another example, which is not exactly about "experts". Let's consider the abortion and pregnancy articles. Now we have a few doctors and nurses and choice and right to life advocates who are trying to construct an article or two that show all sides.

And one or two antiabortion editors come to the articles and unilaterally demand that the articles be written as they dictate, ignoring all sources that they dislike and deleting all material that they disagree with. And they are abusive and combative and uncivil and attack others repeatedly who are trying to have articles that include material from both the right to life and the right to choose sides of the argument, and from the medical perspective. They fight frantically to present the articles ONLY from the right to life view. When told about NPOV, they ignore it or twist the words tortuously to get their way. And many other editors give up and leave Misplaced Pages because it is too unpleasant to deal with these anti-abortion editors.

Then finally, RfCs and Arbcomm proceedings are started against the antiabortion editors. But they promise to do better, and get off and then act badly again, and the entire cycle repeats a half dozen times. Finally the anti-abortion editors are blocked, but then plead to come back and are allowed back, and start acting badly again. And more mainstream editors trying to operate within NPOV give up and leave. And to save one troublesome editor who is unwilling or unable to abide by NPOV, we drive off 5 or 10 others who are trying to abide by NPOV.

If there are experts in this picture, it is the doctors and nurses, who are discouraged from editing by these difficult editors. But the principles are the same as on many other articles.

This same behavior goes on over and over. My main concern and Raymond arritt's concern is on pseudoscience articles and science articles. Where one person claims that magic is real and the articles must be rewritten to include magic or else it is patently unfair. And they and their friends demand that science take a back seat in science articles to magic.

And our administrative structure of admins and arbcomm etc are unable or unwilling to do anything about this situation. And they get 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 10th, 20th, 50th, 100th chances to improve and they never improve. And just drive regular productive editors working within NPOV away, and these regular productive NPOV editors are given no 2nd chances as the disruptive trolls, sock puppets, meat puppets, POV warriors and tendentious disruptive editors are.

Is that clearer?--Filll (talk) 02:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Proposal:

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to withdraw from the project.

Discussion

• I agree. In fact, I suggest that we should start a movement where we encourage scientists or pro-science editors to post the above notice or a similar notice on their user pages and talk pages as a signal to a system that is refusing to listen. Comments?--Filll (talk) 05:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I basically agree, but with modifications. How about proposing a one month moratorium? All pro science editors simply stop editng for one month and abandon Misplaced Pages to the mob. If the result doesn't make the front page of the New York Times I'll bet..... It should cause the ArbCom members and Jimbo himself to stop and take notice. They need to take this matter seriously enough to establish an ArbCom Science Committee that can deal with questions like "Is homeopathy pseudoscience?" IOW a high level RfC that has binding consequences and creates policy. Such questions need to be settled. Then methods of effectively and quickly dealing with pushers of fringe POV who violate NPOV need to be developed.

May others propose other wording here? I'd like to see other versions on this page and then we can take a vote and begin to use the one we choose. -- Fyslee / talk 05:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Propose whatever you like. No rules, no deadlines, no preconceived outcomes. This was meant to be open; I'm curious to know the views of other science-oriented editors. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages would go on without experts; it would be qualitatively worse, but it would still be at the top of most Google searches. I can only speak for the U.S., but many of the scientific "controversies" of the day (intelligent design, global warming, medical scams, etc) have their roots in widespread scientific illiteracy. Misplaced Pages is an incredibly powerful medium to counter that illiteracy. I would propose something diametrically opposite: Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to impress upon all of his or her colleagues the importance and value of participating in a medium like Misplaced Pages. Scientists are busy; they have to publish or perish, and ever since - I dunno - 22 January 2001 or so, this country's research investment has shrunk dramatically and it's not easy to keep an investigative career going. Misplaced Pages is free, volunteer work, but the more the inmates appear to be running the asylum, the more important it is for scientists and experts to volunteer their time and put up with the BS. Just my 2 cents - it's late, and I've had a few gin and tonics, so take it with a grain of salt. MastCell 06:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• Motion to move to Citizendium. ~ UBeR (talk) 06:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• The main reason I stay is whatever I write shoots right up to the top of Google. I feel it is my duty as an expert in my field to put accurate information in that spot. But I sure as hell sympathize with you, and my field is not nearly as overrun with kooks and nutjobs as is any one of the sciences. Just my opinion, and I'm no more sober than MastCell. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 06:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Good example of a defeatist attitude. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, that approach would be defeatist. Do you have a proposal for how to address the situation? Or do you feel there is no problem to be addressed? Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Experts should be given some leeway when dealing with topics in which they are well-versed. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Merovingian, I don't see that you are a regular contributor to scientific or healthcare articles, much less controversial ones. In spite of that, as an experienced admin, I'm hoping that you have an angle on this that might be enlightening to us beginners. What is your interest in this matter? -- Fyslee / talk 06:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• No, I am not an expert on anything in particular, not that that should exclude me from this conversation. I believe it is important to retain experts on real-life subjects. This issue should go beyond science, as well. They have the kind of knowledge and experience that is not easily duplicable. Calling for some kind of withdrawal or boycott is naive, frankly. Boycotts do little to help a problem; rather, they prolong any solution. On the contrary, more participation or active lobbying on the part of experts would be more helpful. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• You are definitely welcome. I am hoping you have some suggestions for a solution. These concerns aren't coming out of nowhere. We need some fundamental policy changes and enforcement provisions. Misplaced Pages needs to decide if it will become an authoritative resource, or remain an unreliable one. -- Fyslee / talk 06:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• As I said, experts should be given some more clout, if you will. Exactly how to do this cannot easily be defined without being inherently arbitrary. A side issue is identity. Not all users disclose their real identities, and maybe some experts wish to as well. Any policy to have experts put in a more powerful position (the word "powerful" being relative here) would be hard to enforce without some type of vetting system, so we don't have to deal with another Essjay controversy. But for the experts we do have and have verified, they need to be respected and listened to. To play the devil's advocate for a moment, however, this is not to say that they should have the final word on a given subject. Any expert scientist has his or her own motives, that much cannot be denied; we are all human, and most of us still have to make a living. They will still be subject to core Misplaced Pages guidelines, and I feel that that includes NPOV as well. If a fringe theory receives enough attention by credible sources, there is no reason to deny it space on Misplaced Pages simply because it is not a mainstream theory. Perhaps a structured type of group of experts meant for discussing certain fields should be set up. Obviously we'd need to get in touch with the Foundation, as I believe they are best able to coordinate something between online and real-world cooperation. --Merovingian (T, C) 07:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I've read some horrible stories about "experts" who were really hurt by off-Wiki attacks by the POV zealots out there. If I have to give my private information to edit here, I'm not going to edit. Think about the Scientology article. Who here would even dare go over there to clean up that mess? Not me. They are scary. And think about the sociopaths that inhabit Creationism, Abortion, and numerous other articles. If they knew who we were, they'd not stop at harming our reputations or worse. Not to sound paranoid, but these people ARE sociopaths. OrangeMarlin 15:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I understand your concern, as I have been pestered myself by off-wiki malcontents. It wouldn't be necessary to publicly identify yourself, but to just confirm your credentials to the Board or Jimbo, basically, anybody that can really be trusted, wouldn't be too bad, right? --Merovingian (T, C) 03:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think my motion is a defeatist attitude. I see it as an evolutionary process, if you will. Just as Nupedia transformed into Misplaced Pages, so should Misplaced Pages transform into Citizendium. The problems over which we quarrel today do not exist there. There's no need for a revolutionary process or profound changes to a dysfunctional system and its policies--just a simple move for those dedicated to providing accurate information. ~ UBeR (talk) 07:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• UBeR, I don't think M. was responding to you but rather to the original proposal. Raymond Arritt (talk) 07:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, I know he wasn't. If you simply leave the project, then Merovingian may very well be correct. I was simply trying to explain why I think my idea shouldn't be considered a defeat. ~ UBeR (talk) 16:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• That would amount to abandoning the highest profile source to the cranks. Citizendium is a noble idea that will never begin to compete with Misplaced Pages for the top spot in searches, and that's what the public uses. This is a much larger vehicle that just needs fixing. No need to build the (much smaller) bridge all over again. -- Fyslee / talk 07:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• With that type of attitude, yes it will remain that way. The purpose, of course, is to dispel that kind of attitude and eventually bring that project to something that surpasses Misplaced Pages. Lets not kid ourselves, we're not working on some bridge that just needs some minor tweaks and adjustments--this is more akin to an I-35 we're working on. You are not going to fix things here in one fell swoop. You're talking about big changes, some of which are inherently against Wale's philosophies and ideals for Misplaced Pages. I've been looking around reading some the suggestions and can't help but notice the similarities between what they want and what Citizendium already has: appreciation and roles for its experts, flagged articles, accountability, reliability, accuracy, stability... ~ UBeR (talk) 17:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• As a finance professional, please change "scientist" to "expert." There are experts in fields that are not hard-sciences. PouponOnToast (talk) 15:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

* How about a one-week strike!!!!  :) Let's see what Jimbo has at the end of the week. OrangeMarlin 15:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Clearly this is an issue which a lot of people are concerned about. Is it entirely out of the question to push for a policy change or for specific new panel? Jefffire (talk) 16:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think a policy change is in the cards, and I'm not convinced one is even needed. Misplaced Pages already has some good policies but they're being ignored or perverted to other ends. Instead of WP:WEIGHT, we get a fatuous "some say the earth is round, others say it is flat" version of neutrality. Instead of WP:IAR, which says that the good of the encyclopedia is more important than rigid adherence to rules, we have endless process wonkery while the encyclopedia deteriorates (more like "ignore all facts, obey all rules"). It's more of a cultural issue than a policy issue. And cultures are much harder to change than policies. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I mostly agree, but with some minor disagreements: It's not something to be done out of principle but something scientists are forced to do out of pragmatism. Expert editors simply cannot effectively make edits to Misplaced Pages. The upward battle in attempting to do so is extremely stressful, and not enjoyable. I'm no scientist, but I am a college student and I have struggled to include basic information I learned in introductory college courses, based on college textbooks I currently have in my posessions and extensive research, as a hobby. Simply leaving Misplaced Pages is not a good thing because Misplaced Pages is a feedback loop whereby if expert editors leave, the whole thing will collapse into a jumble of nonsense in an even worse condition than it is in now.

Scientists firmly standing against Misplaced Pages's model is a good thing, provided that they either:

1. Strongly voice their condemnation of Misplaced Pages together in an attempt at gaining consensus for policy reforms.
2. Continue making the same contributions on outside wikis based on a different model, such as Citizendium.

In my experience with Citizendium so far, the model seems to suffer from the exact opposite flaw of Misplaced Pages, in that its registration process is unnecessarily tedious, its complex process is difficult to follow and poorly worded such that it discourages "non-expert editors" from being able to quickly and easily join and make edits. An appropriate step towards progress would be a combination of the Misplaced Pages model and the Citizendium model. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 16:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding defeatism: It is only defeatism if this proposal is created by a lack of conviction. Given the amount of work a lot of people have put into stopping fringe theories, I don't think anyone's conviction here ought to be in question.

It is not defeatism if the problems are based on experience, reason, and evidence. See Outside scientific studies confirming Misplaced Pages failure on WP:FAIL. This proposal is based on a rational response to these real observed problems, not mere emotional weakness.

As a few studies have noted, Misplaced Pages has the stability that it does because of a core group of editors regularly watching certain pages. Based on this, an "expert revolt" or "boycott" would definitely have a noticeable, meaningful impact on getting the issue of fringe sources clarified.

For those that do, however, wish to call this "defeatism," based on the University of Minnesota's recommendations, here is one suggestion other than a boycott: A "Greylist" of sources that are usually used as unreliable sources, since fringe-pushers tend to use sources from the same URLs, regularly. Regularly consulting this "greylist" possibly in combination with one of the pro-Science Wikiprojects suggested here may be a more effective way of dealing with fringe. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• The withdrawal of the scientists and intellectuals to effect a crisis on Misplaced Pages? -- I like it! Whether in the long-term this would be "good" or "bad" for WP is debatable, and I could offer several arguments to support either possibility, as well as an argument or two that this move would be a zero-sum gambit, yet I think it's worthwhile. Let WP sink to the depths of scientific illiteracy; let it become a para-wiki or a conservapedia; let the smog of smugness that clouds the eyes of those who fail to see that WP is indeed dysfunctional be lifted. •Jim62sch• 21:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• As a believer in both Misplaced Pages and in science (although not somebody with any specialized scientific training), I obviously don't like this, since it would substantially weaken Misplaced Pages. But I also think (again as somebody who believes in science and who rolls his eyes at such notions as intelligent design, homeopathy, and their ilk) that you might be overstating the extent of the problem. For example, the lead of global warming says "While individual scientists have voiced disagreement with the conclusions of the IPCC, the overwhelming majority of scientists working on climate change are in agreement with the conclusions." which seems to me to be a (just) victory for the forces of science. The lead of homeopathy says "No plausible mode of operation has been identified for homeopathy and its underlying principles are "diametrically opposed" to modern pharmaceutical knowledge. Claims for the efficacy of homeopathy beyond placebo are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical studies and homeopathy is considered to be "scientifically implausible" and pseudoscientific." which seems to me to be another such victory. The lead of intelligent design says "The unequivocal consensus in the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science but pseudoscience." Yet another victory. You're winning. You're only winning because you take a lot of time to counter the fringies, perhaps, but you are winning. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I can't agree with this. Comparing what Misplaced Pages was when I started, to what it is now, it is infinitely better now. And yes I mean not only the articles, but also the hierarchy. There have been useful steps taken to curb the most heinous abuses. And the community openness to introspection is only one of those. There will always be people on the edges, and we should not only include proponents of alternative medicine, but also proponents of the idea that our encyclopedia should only include peer-reviewed sources. That might be fine if we were writing the PDR or a Physics textbook, but we aren't. There are POV-pushers from *both* sides of this debate. To characterize it as a "We-are-right-you-are-wrong" avoids the central problem, which is, we do allow minority viewpoints. Hard scientists need to accept that or make an attempt to change policy. Only consensus will change policy. If consensus cannot be achieved, then the alternative is to accept the status quo even if it grates.Wjhonson (talk) 04:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't see much evidence to support the assertion that we're somehow failing. We're doing very well. If individual editors are getting burned out keeping things in shape, that's a small concern. They need to take a more relaxed approach, or take a break for a while. We'll keep going because there are plenty of other editors to step in and keep things in shape. I don't get this bit about withdrawing because you're "principled"- it just sounds like melodrama to me. Friday (talk) 16:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

• More editing is the solution. But also more persuasion and application of existing policies like WP:NPOV. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'm waiting for the movie version... not so much to see Who is John Galt? as to see who gets cast as Dagny Taggart. Dlabtot (talk) 00:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal 2

It definitely needs tweaking and shortening, so make Proposal 3, 4, 5, etc... -- Fyslee / talk 06:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The ArbCom does not exist to dictate content disputes. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It's about time it consulted scientists and got involved. The reputation and atmosphere of Misplaced Pages are at stake. We are driving away excellent editors, while kooks are a dime a dozen, and they are protected. -- Fyslee / talk 06:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Kookery generally can't stand up against the necessity for good referencing. Even without experts, most editors (be they administrators or not) should be able to enforce our core guidelines. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I definitely agree. The problem is that it isn't working, or at least it is so difficult that good editors get burned out, while some admins protect the kooks, even unbanning them, adopting them, and then protecting them. -- Fyslee / talk 06:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

So, the development of processes to deal with fringe theories and their proponents and their proponents' behavior (not to mention the behavior of Misplaced Pages members such as admins that would condone unwarranted attention for such things) does need to go forward, but I highly doubt that a boycott by experts in those fields will help. Bringing attention to a discussion should give as many users a chance to comment as possible, not that everybody will care, but some fresh ideas can be culled. --Merovingian (T, C) 07:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

As you can see from my link to the "Is homeopathy pseudoscience?" discussion, we have no high level place to discuss such matters. An ordinary RfC doesn't cut it. Science isn't bound by consensus, and in such matters science needs to be given the deciding vote whenever it is feasible. Seriously doubtful situations are another matter, which is not the subject here. -- Fyslee / talk 07:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I would see nothing wrong with establishing a place to discuss that. Please see my longer post in the first section for more. In short, some serious work needs to be done to set something like that up. --Merovingian (T, C) 07:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

As a way to draw attention and more eyeballs to this discussion, I have posted a version of the "notice" to my user and talk pages and invited others to do so as well, with a link back to this page. I think some other mechanisms, like a special Science Committee with administrative powers and input to the Senior levels of the Wiki hierarchy might be helpful. I am not sure a boycott will be necessary, but a widespread threat of a boycott might be enough to get someone's attention. We need to brainstorm to think of ideas on what to do. Here are some:

• a high level committee to deal with science issues and pseudoscience issues or disputes
• renaming NPOV as something else so that people do not mistake NPOV as being neutral, and therefore supportive of pseudoscience
• rewriting the NPOV guidelines to make it more clear that Misplaced Pages will not and can not be a platform for the promotion of pseudoscience over real science
• mechanisms to encourage pseudoscience proponents and trolls etc to go to related Wikis such as Paranormal Wiki where they can promote their material without restrictions that they view as unfair, such as NPOV or interaction with real science and real scientists. Note: the Paranormal Wiki might need to be renamed to accommodate alternative medicine and some other WP:FRINGE science areas, which might object to be classified as "paranormal"
• possibly some sort of special expert status, possibly from vetting, potentially confidential so that people who want to remain anonymous can still have that benefit but be recognized as experts (I have a few graduate degrees in the sciences, but I am loathe to drop my anonymity and I know several others in the same boat)

Here is my proposed viral marketing notice for this page. Please feel free to copy it to your user and talk pages:

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to withdraw from the project.

The bureaucracy should either take corrective steps to fix this situation, or else suffer the eventual loss of huge amounts of valuable talent and volunteered resources.

If you agree with this statement, post it to your pages, and pass it on. (discuss this here)

--Filll (talk) 14:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The problems are not confined to 'science'. 'Philosophy' has long since been abandoned to the wolves. 'Religion' is near hopeless. The Christianity article devolved from an FA article, to GA, to barely B-class because of in fighting, POV-pushing and nonsense. I spent 2007, in that part of Misplaced Pages and — by reputation — had thought the 'science' side was the bastion of sanity. Even outside reviewers have written that the 'science' articles were superior: for example, the infamous 'Nature' comparison to Britannica. To a very productive editor who left Misplaced Pages over the destruction of the Christianity article, I said as - a parting comment - that:

Misplaced Pages eats its young, no doubt about that. I do not know if it will survive in the long term. I'm afraid I spend time at Misplaced Pages with a cheerful apathy and yet I'm endlessly surprised by the destructive behavior: if Misplaced Pages were a person, I'd say it had a severe personality disorder.

Now, I find the same problem exists with the science articles. Having spent a month on the science side, my preconceptions have been shredded. Science is in worse shape; my opinion, but also my observation. I agree with Filll (talk · contribs). Everyone take a wikibreak for a month. The project is entirely volunteer-driven, and everyone deserves a vacation. Nevertheless, I don't think it will cure the problem. I think Misplaced Pages hit its peak in 2007 and will begin its decline this year. Like so many Internet fads, this one will pass. Yahoo and AOL are imploding. MySpace and Facebook will peak this year. Misplaced Pages will have company. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 14:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Anything about finance or economics is overrun with goldbugs and other sorts of fringe wierdness. PouponOnToast (talk) 15:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Just for everyone's info, there is this discussion - Evidence Misplaced Pages is failing at the village pump. A perennial discussion, yes, but relevant. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 15:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• How about some sort of "certified science" label for articles that have been through review by the science community, and judged to be reasonable and balanced and following NPOV carefully. There could be special permission to protect these sorts of articles more aggressively to keep them at a high standard. Other articles might be good, but might have some pseudoscience in them and would not get certified.--Filll (talk) 16:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• • The pie in the sky is not attainable. The problem is not even acknoledged, so let's not skip step 1. PouponOnToast (talk) 16:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think we first have to hit the mule on the head with a 2x4 to get its attention. And we should have proposals to suggest once we get the mule's attention.--Filll (talk) 16:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Even though I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a big contributer to these articles in question, I fully support this month long break. Though most of my editing is simply reverting POV edits and being cranky on talk pages, I have always wondered what would happen, especially if we truly got all the editors on board, if everyone with an ounce of integrity decided to stop defending these articles from the constant onslaught of "fringies" who are seemingly adored by a good number of admins. This whole enterprise would be even better if the articles, that everyone here seeks to protect and uphold, have an outside review during the period everyone is gone (drinking). The intelligent design article will read like a DI blog post. Water memory will be proven through cherry picking of unreliable sources. Evolution will be "just a theory" and Darwin will be described as some of a minion of Satan. Good stuff. Baegis (talk) 16:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• An idea similar to a "certified science" label - see Misplaced Pages:Flagged revisions - seems to be moribund. Zenwhat (talk · contribs) has been busy making some interesting contributions to the Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is failing article. See Outside scientific studies confirming Misplaced Pages failure which says, in part:

For instance, in order to address the problem of unreliable sources and fringe views, there could be the creation of a "greylist" which automatically generates a list of articles which likely contain inappropriate edits, based upon the likelihood of certain sources to be regularly misused again and again. This could more appropriately address extreme violations of WP:NPOV and WP:V, which are not captured by bots, while at the same time allowing humans to make the final decision as to what constitutes a "reliable source" or not.

and

...Misplaced Pages's ability to prevent obvious vandalism is intriguing, but that alone is not how Misplaced Pages's success is defined since the problems stem from system bias and erosion of good content, which, unlike random vandalism, cannot simply be addressed through the use of large networks of bots crawling Misplaced Pages and making automatic reverts according to a set algorithm.

Anyway, as always, there is a lot of typing going on, but will anything get done? The academics seem to see failure. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 16:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Here is another idea. How about a Science Guild, with levels? The top level might be certified experts with credentials. A secondary level might be those invited into the guild by those in the top level as pro-science editors and somewhat trustworthy. People in the guild might be accorded special powers or consideration.--Filll (talk) 16:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The bigger problem is that Wikpedia is all voluntary. No one has to do anything, so establishing a super user with certified credentials doesn't mean the super user is going to step in and do anything. We are barely replacing Admins because of attrition. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 17:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Put on your thinking cap and see if you can come up with constructive suggestions to improve the current situation.--Filll (talk) 18:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue of quacks\cranks\kooks

A completely open wiki-process appears to fail because it makes the false assumption that a minority of bad editors (vandals, trolls, and just general nutcases) cannot overwhelm a majority of good editors. An open question: Can we make a similar assumption regarding the sample of "expert editors"?

The idea of supporting a more closed system like Citizendium or a "Science Guild" as proposed above seems to rely on the assumption that the proportion of bad average editors to good average editors is larger than the proportion of bad expert editors to good expert editors. If we have a more closed system, a Science Guild, etc., some theoretical problems that could arise in certain fields:

• People with degrees in Feminist studies, Black studies, Queer studies, etc., vandalizing various articles
• Neomarxians, Austrian economists, Sociologists, and Ecologists vandalizing articles on economics
• Economists vandalizing articles on Ecology and Sociology
• Theologians vandalizing articles on religion
• Philosophers -- they'd probably vandalize just about everything (just kidding)
• Wackos with Ph.D.s in medical fields vandalizing articles on Homeopathy and Alternative medicine

As a demonstration of how this problem might arise (and certainly would in rare cases), there is User:Pundit who is a visiting professor at Harvard (I verified his credentials), but at the same time he made this absolutely absurd edit and has argued that Cannabis Culture magazine is a "reliable source."

Having an education, such as a Ph.D., generally grants a greater absolute degree of trustworthiness, but not a guaranteed degree of trustworthiness. (See quackwatch) More importantly, does the attainment of a degree ensure a greater relative degree of trustworthiness, compared with others of the same educational achievement? If not, then how could such a policy improve Misplaced Pages's margin of error?

And should expert editors have broad authority or only authority over their particular field? How narrowly should "their particular field" be? On one article I saw a debate where some people claimed that a professor wasn't a reliable source, because the article was on Islamic history, but he was a professor just on Islamic theology, not specifically on "Islamic history"! Is that too narrow? ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 17:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Under the current system, one or two vandals or POV warriors or trolls etc can overwhelm many mainstream editors. What is needed is a new approach to this and a willingness to try different kinds of remedies and tools. For example, one thing that is often tried is to restrict the editing of the mainspace page by a problem editor, but to let them run rampant on talk pages at will. This really is just about as disruptive and upsetting, and frankly not a useful remedy on places like homeopathy. Of course, "experts" can still cause problems. That is why a self-governing Guild, which can control or monitor the actions of its members, with levels of "trustedness" is appropriate. As an outside check, the products of the guild should be eventually peer-reviewed by outside bodies as feedback to the WP community at large that the Guild has not gone off the deep end. --Filll (talk) 18:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Counter-proposal

I mentioned this above, but I feel like putting it in a blue-bordered box like everyone else:

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to impress upon all of his or her colleagues the importance and value of participating in a medium like Misplaced Pages.

The reason that WP:WEIGHT is so hard to uphold is that minority views are represented on Misplaced Pages far in excess of their representation in the real world. This creates a skewed perspective, where ideas like AIDS denialism or secondhand-smoke-is-harmless are considered reasonable alternative views rather than discredited fringism. The solution is not to go on strike, which would dilute the accurate representation of these topics even further, but to convince scientists, researchers, and generally knowledgeable folk of the need to contribute. Such people tend to be skeptical of an encyclopedia that anyone can edit - for good reason - but with increased participation these problems will go away. MastCell 18:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this in principle, except that we should try to consider some other options to try to improve the situation if we cannot recruit enough mainstream scientists, or recruit them fast enough, or if they find Misplaced Pages to be an unfriendly environment.--Filll (talk) 18:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it even the right option to try and fix the problem by weight of numbers? It could just turn out a big-ass edit war. Jefffire (talk) 18:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The idea is to encourage knowledgeable people to volunteer to share that knowledge via Misplaced Pages. It sounds like the best option to me. MastCell 00:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and the best way to encourage "knowledgeable people"/experts to use Misplaced Pages is to provide an environment better than the battleground that currently exists. (which is the point of this whole discussion - but this kind of response is illustrative of the mindset of those who don't see a real problem) I'm surrounded by some of the leading experts in their fields, and the response I get to Misplaced Pages ranges from lukewarm to frosty - and given the current state of things I wouldn't encourage them to edit here either. Mostlyharmless (talk) 22:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. I work with Nobel Prizewinners, and I guarantee not a single one would put up with this nonsense. I personally refuse to even look at the articles related to my expertise, because it is so unpleasant to edit with morons. The only want I can edit here is to work on things that I have no background in; I also get to learn something while I am at it.

Look for example at poor User: Orangemarlin, a cardiologist. OM is completely tied into knots and frustrated when trying to edit medical articles, because of interference with a vast assortment of POV warriors, nincompoops, people with a grade 8 education, trolls, sock puppets, meat puppets, FRINGE proponents ~etc. And it is frustrating as all get out.--Filll (talk)

Small-scale strike

I was thinking that if the idea of a complete abandonment of Misplaced Pages (or the controversial areas at least) by experts seems a bit extreme at first, we might wish to try enacting it on a much smaller scale. For instance, we could start with one article. Encourage everyone who's been working on defending the expert POV on that article to give it a break for a week or two (both on the article and talk page), and then we'll see how quickly and how badly it deteriorates.

One article I think might be perfect for this is Homeopathy. If you've had any experience with it, the reasons why should go without saying. For those that haven't, it's an extremely controversial article that was eventually pushed up to Good Article status a while back. It's been protected for long bouts of time, and recently came off of one long protection. Now might be a good chance to see how it falls from its GA version (or even the last protected version) when the homeopaths have their way with it. --Infophile 18:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Rather than a month-long total wikipedia boycott, how about nominating 8 or 10 specific articles (evolution, intelligent design, homeopathy, abortion, atheism - whatever) and letting just those articles succumb to mob rule for a month. Just as effective in terms of making a point, perhaps easier to make a "story" out of for the media, and a lot less of a mess to clean up eventually (which I'm sure is what would happen). Snalwibma (talk) 18:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with both of these. And homeopathy was an article I particularly had in mind. I would give it longer than 2 weeks however, to let the editing really pick up steam. At least a month or two would be great. It would be an interesting experiment to watch what happens. Mainstream POV editors would still have to watch the article to minimize mainstream edits, and prevent other editors inadvertently wandering into the experiment and then fighting against the FRINGE elements. Let the FRINGE elements have the article to themselves for a good long time; we can always revert any damage.

I suspect that SOME of the WP:FRINGE elements are only here to fight, and not to actually create anything at all or be productive. I think some will not be bothered to edit at all if there is no fighting to be done, because all they are interested in is fighting. I would be interested in testing that hypothesis.--Filll (talk) 18:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to start now then with that article. Anyone else who wants is of course free to join me, though I won't be informing any new users about it until we have a consensus that it's a good idea. --Infophile 18:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have serious doubts about this. The fringers would soon get wind of the experiment. The saner ones would encourage the others to back off (or even make constructive edits) to foil it. We'd end up with egg on our face, and the fringers would get to say "See? They're whinging about nothing." Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a concern. Maybe we should decide off-wiki which article to stop editing. On the other hand, I'm not sure this lot has the foresight to try to foil our plans like this, especially with how frequently new users join their side. --Infophile 18:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have actually proposed this exact same scenario a few times to the "fringers" in homeopathy a few times over the last few weeks. The "fringers" I talked to were anxious to "give it a go" (like Whig for example), since they are positive that the pro-science people are just insane and do not really know what neutral means and NPOV. I am positive if we gave Whig a reprieve from his currently impending doom at his 3rd RfC, he and several others would jump on board to promote the "Truth".

Believe me, they are just as annoyed with the pro-science lobby as we are with them. They would revel in a chance to get rid of us so they could really write these articles the way they should be written. And why not give them a chance to see how they do? I had previously suggested a period of 6 months of unfettered editing.--Filll (talk) 19:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I think 6 months might be too long. We could probably make a good point with just one month. --Infophile 19:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Only partially in jest

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course is for all editors to work together to fix it.

I'm not saying that fixing it will be easy though. If it were, we'd have already done so. --Ronz (talk) 18:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Although this is a great idea, there is a core problem or imbalance that several pro-science editors have noticed. We have a situation where pseudoscience is being favored over real science, and pseudoscience promoters and trolls are being treated with kid gloves and nurtured, while real scientists are being driven off. Articles are turning into terrible battlegrounds between pro-science and anti-science forces, and the anti-science forces often get the upper hand or just overwhelm the pro-science forces, or exhaust them. It is because there is a HUGE group of editors on Misplaced Pages that do not want science here, and want to spread pseudoscience, and the bureaucracy enables this and protects it.--Filll (talk) 18:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be difficult to fix a problem that very few will even admit exists. A good number of the people in power positions, for whatever reason, are failing to address the problem. Also, many of the people on the fringe side are looked at as the scrappy little underdogs and in need of admin support. Because who doesn't root for the underdog when he is taking on the big, bad establishment? Except for those whose reasoning is grounded in reality. Baegis (talk) 18:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly what I was thinking - except, I'm not sure that wikipedia is "dysfunctional". It's still young, and works fairly well, in terms of its intended purpose. It's not a reliable source, so why hold it to that standard in the first place? Tparameter (talk) 00:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly correct Baegis. That is why we need two things:

• Ideas on creative ways to try to help the current system improve
• A big wakeup call to the establishment to help implement any ideas; an alarm basically, to let the establishment know there is a problem that needs to be addressed (as has happened a few times previously)--Filll (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Undue weight to the success of Misplaced Pages

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, and that anonymous volunteers’ - who do not benefit because of their good work – labor on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to withdraw from all stress inducing work and maximize leisure time pleasure. The principled scientist should treat the project as a fun hobby.

The community of hobbyist-editors ought not to concern themselves with the success or failure of Misplaced Pages. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the labor of valuable talented volunteers. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the good will of readers as inferior and worthless articles predominate. Misplaced Pages is an experiment that may not succeed.

Be a WikiSloth. Spend time with your family. Write real papers and real articles in the real world. On Misplaced Pages, enjoy yourself.

• I think that we may be placing undue weight on the success of Misplaced Pages, itself. What if this version of the collaborative model fails? Why should we subsidize a trouble model,with excessive time and labor? Would anyone here remain at their place of work - where you are actually paid and recognized / credited - if this level of dysfunction existed? In the cartoon strip Dilbert, you could be a 'Wally'. Or, you could try to help make your employer better. Or, you could find a better employer. Misplaced Pages isn't work. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 21:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• Hear, hear! --Merovingian (T, C) 03:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think this may be my favorite idea of all. How about the following revision? Raymond Arritt (talk)

Given the dysfunction that now prevails in the Misplaced Pages community, and the fact that effort on Misplaced Pages is anonymous, unrecognized, and unrewarded, the most appropriate course for a scientist or other expert is to avoid all stress inducing aspects of the project and maximize leisure time pleasure. They should treat the project as a fun hobby and stay away from potentially stressful activities such as resolving disputes or enforcing policy.

These hobbyist-experts ought not to concern themselves with the success or failure of Misplaced Pages. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the labor of talented volunteers. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the good will of readers as inferior and biased articles increasingly predominate. Such matters are of no consequence to the hobbyist-expert.

Be a WikiSloth. Spend time with your family. Write real papers and real articles in the real world. On Misplaced Pages, enjoy yourself.

I like the revision. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 04:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

That about sums up my approach to the project at this stage--same as when I started! Mackensen (talk) 16:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

So how do you explain that patch in the middle? :) (ducks, runs) ++Lar: t/c 17:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

(Cross-posted) Two years of temporary insanity? Mackensen (talk) 19:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK -- me, Wassup and Mackensen makes three of us. Is that enough to qualify as a cabal? Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Another crazy idea

I suspect that a good fraction of our problems is the name NPOV for the goal for how articles should be written. As Jimbo has said before (and I am looking for this quote), the word "neutral" in this name is misleading and creates a lot of confusion, because we do not want our articles to be "neutral" but "balanced" in a certain way, and not balanced so that WP:FRINGE views have equal weight to mainstream scientific views.

I think that NPOV should be renamed. Called it "Mainstream Point of View" or "Balanced Point of View" or "Conventional Point of View" or "Dominant Point of View" or something. NPOV is an awful name, and creates probably 75% of the problems, I have observed.--Filll (talk) 00:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a hard time buying this. The people who are the problem editors already aren't trying to achieve what we describe as a neutral point of view. Changing the name would help, really? I doubt it. Undue weight is already reasonably well explained. Friday (talk) 00:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

It would help. We need something that clearly says, the mainstream dominates. Period. If you don't like it, then, make like the birds and flock off.---Filll (talk) 01:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

We have that- it's Misplaced Pages:NPOV#Undue_weight. Been there for years. Friday (talk) 17:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, UNDUE is part of NPOV, and from what I have observed (and Jimbo noted in some talk as I am trying to verify), the "N" for "neutral" in "NPOV" is seized on by people who do not want to read a lot of text and just want to edit. And they misinterpret the "N" to mean "neutral" and therefore nothing negative about their favorite subject.--Filll (talk) 19:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Nothing besides SPOV will do- and then only partially. With Dominant POV, most people don't believe, for example, in evolution. Even Scientific Dominant POV won't work here, as "science" is not clearly demarcated, and sometimes scientists ignore subjects. Only Skeptical POV will work for Fringe topics, and Mainstream Scientific POV for mainstream topics. You can't put it all under one roof. Under current rules, the skeptics, being an extreme minority on many things, should flock off. Further, you have to do OR in some subjects for this to work well. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Dysfunctional?

If you hold wikipedia to the standard of reliable sources, then it's dysfunctional purely by its nature. But, it's not a reliable source. Basically, it's young, and it functions fairly well, and seems to be improving. It's a great place to get basic information on a variety of topics - a place to start studying a topic. Moreover, as a platform, it's very young. Some people aren't cut out for it, however - whether they are scientists or otherwise. Of course, everyone who leaves has their own reasons, but it seems like most of the vocal ones that I've seen tend to leave because they can't function without more control than they can garner. Tparameter (talk) 00:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not think you understand the situation.--Filll (talk) 01:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe that I do. My understanding is that in order to accept most of these discussions, first you have to accept that dysfunction "prevails" on wikipedia. My point is that the premise is debatable. Tparameter (talk) 01:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

We can either give up and accept things as they are, or we can try to improve things.--Filll (talk) 02:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Since that's at least your third response to me (in two different threads of the same or similar topic) without addressing the points I've made in the slightest, and since you did not ask for clarification, I guess I can assume that you don't want to discuss my points substantively. That's okay - but, I'm left slightly (very slightly) curious as to why you would waste your time in the first place. With regard to frustrating discussions on wikipedia, I suppose I could thank you for the irony. ;] Anyway, all the best. Tparameter (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I am glad to respond to your points, once I am sure that you understand where this page is coming from. I responded with a long post on Raymond arritt's talk page. As long as you have read it and understood it, then if you have any further comments or questions then please post them and I will try to address them, if I can understand them (to be honest I cannot quite understand what you are saying above).--Filll (talk) 03:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Tparameter makes a good point here. There will always be a certain amount of dysfunction on Misplaced Pages caused by its very nature. If you try and eradicate that part of the dysfunction, you are fighting the system itself. Carcharoth (talk) 19:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course Misplaced Pages is dysfunctional. However, several things have changed in the last few years to reduce, or attempt to reduce, dysfunctionality at Misplaced Pages, such as BLP, OTRS, Arbcomm and many other policies.

It is naive and even silly to imagine that the current Misplaced Pages system cannot be improved further. After all, there are volumes of criticism in the academic literature, popular media and other online and blog communities about how awful Misplaced Pages is at X, or Y or Z, and ideas for how Misplaced Pages should change to improve itself.

So it is not completely ridiculous to at least contemplate how Misplaced Pages might possibly improve in some areas where it is obviously struggling. Because, you never know, we might have a positive impact. And if you never try to improve, you never will.--Filll (talk) 19:15, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Another crazy idea (2)

What about if some articles require you to pass an NPOV quiz first before you are "certified" to edit?--Filll (talk) 01:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see if any of the current "editors" on the Homeopathy article could pass this test. Baegis (talk) 01:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Apart from other concerns, that strikes me as a very easy quiz to game. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 01:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You are quite right. But it would be a start. It is not the only remedy we should consider. I think people who cannot or will not abide by NPOV should be rapidly barred from editing until they can demonstrate that they are able and willing to abide by NPOV.--Filll (talk) 01:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

That is what gave me the idea. I am positive that almost all of the people I have seen having trouble with the mainstream consensus on creationism, intelligent design, homeopathy and similar kinds of articles does not know what NPOV is. I have seen this over and over and over. If these people had to demonstrate a knowledge of NPOV, and could be rapidly barred from editing even the talk page because of failure to understand NPOV, then things would be far less tense and pressured and we might actually do more creative productive work.

I suspect that most of these people are here only to fight. However, those that want to be productive but cannot work within NPOV are frustrated over and over and become embittered and it consumes a huge amount of community effort to get rid of them. It is not that their material is not interesting and entertaining, but it is not suitable for Misplaced Pages. That is why I am trying to find other creative outlets for them so they can be productive too.--Filll (talk) 01:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

There's a problem with that idea, Fill. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 15:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Although you see what I am trying to do; that is, to address the problem somehow that actually the people who are struggling here do not know what NPOV is, and possibly do not want to know.

I will admit that when I first came to Misplaced Pages, I didn't know either and I was confused. It was not really that clear. And so possibly if some more examples and an FAQ and some test questions etc were assembled to help people learn, this might help a lot.--Filll (talk) 15:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A less aggressive proposal

Just brainstorming. Tparameter (talk) 03:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Should one discard NPOV?--Filll (talk) 03:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Tparameter (talk) 04:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

No one wants to waste time gaining the trust of wingnuts. We want to get rid of the junk. Why err on the side of caution? For example, do we have to talk through every 'perpetual motion machine'? Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 03:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that a 'perpetual motion machine' would be considered to be qualified for the cautious approach. On the other hand, I've seen MIT research scientists classified as "nutjobs" within their field of expertise. That would clearly be a case to use caution instead of blatant attacks on a true intellectual. As for "wingnuts", I would say that homeopathy and the like are much more likely to attract moonbats. Tparameter (talk) 04:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Pretty good. The last sentence doesn't square with real-world experience, though it may be helpful in a Machiavellian sense. Raymond Arritt (talk) 04:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I was kind of thinking that kooks could be persuaded to move toward editing other things they're interested in, like the cities where they live, their hobbies, and so forth - instead of provoking strong emotions in areas of faith. It's a long-shot. Tparameter (talk) 06:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A principled scientist should learn how to explain science. It would be just as wrong to withdraw from editing WP as to withdraw from teaching science courses to nonscientists. There is no need to "label" pseudoscience, just to explain it. Anyone who claims to be an expert should be able to give an object description of even the most absurd theory. an objective description will make it plain to everyone but the convinced anti-science POV. There is no need to resort to labels to explain things to a unprejudiced reader. (and no hope at all that a label convince the prejudiced to look at things more scientifically). Homeopathy (for example), explained in any straightforward way, is obvious nonsense, and I do not see what is gained by trying to say it is pseudoscience--it will only give the impression that the scientist is the bigot. Those who resort to opprobrium always give an impression that it is they who are prejudiced. The thing to do with the ignorant is to teach them, and those who want to defend science have the obligation to learn how to do it patiently. DGG (talk) 05:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

But what to when the ignorant insist on remaining ignorant, and fight objective descriptions tooth and claw? I agree that labeling things as pseudoscience may not be effective (even when incontestably correct). But getting an accurate, straightforward account of these topics into Misplaced Pages is nearly impossible in the face of opposition from determined advocates of nonsense -- and the administrators who shelter them. Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Are we forgetting what is pretty obvious at times, namely that some editors are incapable of understanding these issues? Some are too immature, some are uneducated, some are mentally disturbed, others are immune to cognitive dissonance (IOW they are really and truly true believers). They too waste alot of our time and effort. It's like trying to make jello stick to the ceiling with thumbtacks. -- Fyslee / talk 06:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm just waiting for a specific instance to be cited. And I mean a long-term war against "wingnuts" that would be so drama-filled as to cause sensible scientists to leave the Wikiverse. I've been involved in long-term wars and I'm still here. Perhaps I'm not sensible. There may be a slight possibility, that certain personality-types aren't well-suited to play Wikimopoly.Wjhonson (talk) 06:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course, but there are different forces at play. The forces pushing an academic away from academia are 1. need to get published in peer-reviewed journal 2. need to get paid to teach 3. fear of being seen editing Misplaced Pages by other academics, WP being regarded as an extension of crank activity on usenet. The forces pushing him or her onto WP are 1. Displacement activity for writers block on peer-reviewed article 2. Enjoys making fun of cranks (same thing explains why academics go on usenet) 3. Real concern that some cranky subject is getting #1 ranking in Google, and the public is being misled. By contrast, there are no forces pushing the crank off WP. Only ones pushing them on, in particular the realisation that anything they write will be the first thing that comes on Google. What crank would resist? In the old days, you had to spend a lot of your own money getting your mad idea published, and no one would pay real money to read it anyway. In the internet era all has changed. For free you can get your idea 'published' so that millions would read it. You don't have to pay the vast sums for google to advertise it. Just write some old rubbish in Misplaced Pages. Quite clearly the forces acting for crank ideas are far more powerful than those in the other direction. In my view academics should be paid by their institutions to write for WP, but perhaps that's controversial. [later edit - this makes it quite obvious why it is difficult for WP to attract academics. User:Renamed user 4

Chiropractic comes to mind - but, I'm curious how many "scientists" see one every other week. It's quackery (and it's been confirmed through personal experience) - yet, the article doesn't reflect the degree to which it is a pseudoscience. My point is that I'm less worried about those without the capacity to understand; I'm worried about those WITH the capacity, but that actually believe. Tparameter (talk) 06:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Which I think illustrates the problem. You have a personal bias against Chiropracty, which may or may not be justified. I take no stance on that. I happen to have a wheelbarrow of personal bias myself, as we all do. However our job here, is as journalists to document the situation, not judge the situation. We form articles from verifiable sources. If ten million people believe chiropracty helps them, then we have to accept that as verifiable even if we think it's the placebo effect. Our own personal opinions must be laid aside once we enter the wikiverse, and we must edit to policy, not to a scientific standard. Scientists have plenty of journals in which to express their articles. And "wingnuts" have plenty of places to express theirs. We document the universe, we should not also determine it. Wjhonson (talk) 06:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

One of my main points is that caution on these topics is best. Yes, I think Chiropractors are quacks - but, you can note that I have never modified that article, for example. Why? For exactly the reasons you said. On the other hand, as an example of over-reaching science-police around here, the Austrian school of economics was put in the category of "pseudosciences" recently. Philosophies regarding economics, particularly those with Nobel laureates as members, do not fit that category at all IMO. This is what I'm referring to with regard to caution. There are actually plenty of examples of exploratory or skeptical areas of science, or in this case political philosophy, that "mainstream" scientists here label as pseudoscience. I'm saying, relax, and focus on those subjects that are CLEARLY quackery to all but only the tiniest minority. Tparameter (talk) 07:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I would tend to say something like "that position appears to lack substantive evidence". If I were to instead say "you are a loon", I don't think I'd get anywhere with my editorial comrade. Wjhonson (talk) 07:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Why do we get so hung-up on the category:Pseudoscience tag, which many of the debates seem to be about. Its a Pejorative term, its a black/white distinction, when reality is shades of grey. By relentlessly trying to force this term you do nothing but create an argument. So don't come crying when you get an argument. --Salix alba (talk) 09:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

So true. Tparameter (talk) 15:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I can see both sides of this. The Pseudoscience category is a bit like waving a red flag in front of a bull. I know some are considering other names for it and have considered other names for this category, to be less upsetting to the proponents. On the other hand, I find the categories very handy for finding related articles and topics quickly and easily. So...--Filll (talk) 15:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't resist commenting on this one

I couldn't resist joining this one - please note I have been indefinitely blocked (see User talk:Renamed user 4), but this almost no bearing on what I say here.

1. I originally started the 'Expert Rebellion' page with Engineer Scotty years ago. I see the situation hasn't improved, indeed got worse.

2. I am amused to see, still, that each person regards only their own area of expertise as vulnerable to crank ideas. Look, every area has its cranks. Mathematics I was involved with a complete nut who belongs to the 'Cantor was wrong' school of thought, courtesy usenet. Mainstream science we know about. And philosophy, my area of expertise, got corrupted long ago. Check out my talk page for the tracking I am doing on the articles as they degrade. Philosophy, despite being the origin of all rationalism in ancient greek times, and which in academic circles is still a very difficult technical subject to master, as a natural target for bar-room 'philosophers' (and ganja smoking ones, natch).

3. And you are all missing the real elephant in the room, which is Neurolinguistic programming. Just check out the version as at the end of 2006, with what it is now. It got taken over by a bunch of these kooks, who are practising 'therapists', and moreover they have very powerful support here (mentioning no names - that's what got me blocked).

4. On the idea of small-scale strike, we tried that on the philosophy main article when it was attacked by two well-meaning but idiotic editors. They tore the article into pieces in about a week, feuding with each other. One thing you haven't picked up on is that cranks, while they have a common target (scientific conspiracy against them) will appear united. But of course cranks are only cranks because they have some peculiar idiosyncratic view of their own meaning by definition they disagree with all other cranks. They quickly start fighting. The reason experts are able to agree is because they have a well-defined and very sharp line between crank theories on the one hand, and minority but scientific positions on the other, and can unite against cranks. This happened on the Philosophy page, where there Anglo-analytic types united with the European Hegelian/Habermas types for a unique period in the history of the subject against the cranks.

5. The suggestion above for a system based on trust, that would not need credentials, is the obvious way to go. Or perhaps some credentials based on work at WP, not the outside world. The trust could be earned in all sorts of ways, not just scientific expertise.

5a. I do think academics (not just scientists - the 'humanities' side of WP needs far more attention than the science side) should be encouraged, perhaps financially, to edit WP, but this makes it quite obvious why this will not happen User:Renamed user 4

6. Wish you all well, I have every support for what you are doing. Good luck. (Though I have to say, you need it. ) Again, apologies for butting in when I am no longer really part of WP. User:Renamed user 4

Gah, I've seen the NLP page in action. There's a lot of money and conflicts of interest at play regarding that particular piece. Jefffire (talk) 11:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes - I've just linked in the end-2006 version for a true comparison. User:Renamed user 4

Hey! I'm glad others have noticed it! Now that we have, we can follow what is the right remedy for such problems, which is editing by a wider group of responsible editors. That's the solution for bias and POV-- in every direction. And that is why we do not want editing only by "elite" editors or experts-- I don't trust elites: I think the people who have been editing NLP think of themselves as the experts. I don't think the people at Citizendium are any freer from POV than the ones here. I agree 100% with Mast Cell in his many comments above--the solution to the problems of WP is wider participation. What we want with WP is to attract good people, people who will want to teach others, especially the ignorant. On any given topic, the eccentric will be hugely outnumbered if enough people pay attention. We want to attract those who want to help, not those who want to pontificate. (I hope everyone knows my own bias, which is that what is called pseudoscience is indeed stupid. But I want to encourage people to grow out of it, not corner them into defending it.) DGG (talk) 04:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The thing about that, David, is that real POV-pushes just don't want to be taught, and what you stated forces experts into a system of authority by tribalism. It plays the Lord of the Flies game with rules based upon overwhelming the opposition by numbers and persistence. It's an inherently unjust system for human beings. CZ can much more readily deal with POV pushers by simply sending them on their way. Stephen Ewen (talk) 22:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with the views of DGG expressed above. All surveys of the public demonstrate a far greater acceptance of anything deemed to be pseudoscience or WP:FRINGE beliefs among the public than the experts or those trained in that area subscribe to, including alien abduction, holocaust denial, belief in ghosts, bigfoot, levitation, telepathy, astrology, witches, demons, etc. If an unmanaged flood of editors is envisaged, you will get the public views in every single article. Including the world view that Americans or Westerners are the most evil people in existence and should be killed on sight, which is quite prevalent in many areas of the world with large populations (of course, these views might carry some truth with them).--Filll (talk) 16:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As an adjunct to this, should we close all schools of library science? Allow anyone off the street to summarily fire any librarian and replace them? Get rid of the Library of Congress research service and replace the staff there with the janitorial staff? Drop not only college requirements but high school or elementary school graduation requirements for hiring as a teacher?--Filll (talk) 16:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm well I tried. For the Philosophy articles I went to academic departments and emailed profs and suchlike and tried to encourage them. Usually they responded that since Misplaced Pages can be edited by anyone, anything they wrote would be corrupted by idiots. I did try to explain that NPOV principle means that won't happen so long as enough experts are involved but of course they took one look at the pages and decided, rightly, that not enough experts were involved, and it became self-fulfulling. I did get Peter King briefly involved, but you only have to look at his user page to see what happened. User:Renamed user 4

Proposal : Content Arbcom

Not a bad idea. I presume you will add more here?--Filll (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that Universities be contacted for named highly credentialed and respected volunteers to man an English-language Misplaced Pages content arbcom in which our regular arbcom passes them issues for deciding once and for all (or maybe only a year or two?) content decisions on highly limited but significant questions of fact that can not be resolved though consensus except by wearing out one side or the other. I see this as starting small and limited and becoming larger and more important and useful over time, especially with flagged versions. Using named people, limiting their time involvement, and limiting the issues to be decided can make this a post people will feel is worth their time and possibly useful in their career. see also Wikiquality WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

See http://www.ocwconsortium.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view%20%20&id=15&Itemid=29 for such institutions that share WikiMedia's ideals (and also a great source for high quality data). WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Excellent ideas. These are exactly the types of ideas that I hoped we would start to generate and catalogue at this page.--Filll (talk) 16:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A content arb-com of some form is an excellent idea in my opinion. Jefffire (talk) 17:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Already done. It's called citizendium. GusChiggins21 (talk) 06:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I have had similar thoughts myself, although I prefer the term editorial board. Personally, for the sake of fairness, I would have a number of subcommittees (for example: Fine Arts and history; Film, television and contemporary music; Physics, mathematics, and engineering; and Biology and medicine), each of which would have a post for each of the five major continental regions. This does lead to committee creep, yes, but we need to make sure that cultural biases are reduced, and each area does tend to have a slightly different style of coverage (certainly I doubt that a mathematician, a media studies professor and a historian would all agree on what is notable and needed to be covered for their own areas). Content policies should be controlled also by such a board, for as we have seen, a degree of expert understanding is really needed to understand their original spirit. LinaMishima (talk) 17:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The idea of a content Arbcom is a great idea. And yes, there should be numerous different groups that can each cover a major area. It could be split up similar to how a college is divided. For example, there could be:

• a Physical Sciences Arbcom (Math, physics, chemistry, stats, earth sciences, Engineering (maybe), and the like)
• a Bio Sciences committee (Biology, EEOB, BioChem, maybe medical as well),
• a Social Science (Economics, Philosophy, Sociology, Pysch) and so forth.

Some of the Arbcoms would be broad, but could subdivide work amongst themselves and even open separate panels to address area specific questions, ie especially in the broad category of Social Sciences. Of course, to become a member of one of these groups would be a matter of debate. We could take a model similar to Citizendium and have people who actually work in the field sit on them; this would of course entail a bit of outing to explain your credentials (Master's, Doctorate, work in the field) which may cause problems. I think we are all aware of the stress that being outed could actually entail, especially when it leads to harassment at your workplace. Another option would be to have elections, similar to the current Arbcom, but the biggest problem with that would be the fact that, in many areas, it might lead to no one being elected. I'm sure we have seen what happens at RFA's to anyone with the slightest hint of a mainstream POV (edit:also in RFC's). The fringe users come out in full force and meatstack the whole oppose section. But I would encourage the other side to get involved, because it would help to have a sane (and understanding of what NPOV actually means) creationist *gasp* sit with the group overseeing the related articles to make sure the articles on creationism get a fair shake (which they already do, but we have to think in terms of balance). Same thing with the Homeopathy article. I hope this makes some sense, because I think that this might be one of the better ideas so far. Except for the strike, of course. Baegis (talk) 20:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the groups themselves should consist mostly of a few people with academic qualifications and positions. By requiring this, we reduce the potential group size needed, we avoid similar problems to the Esjay farce, and ensure that there is quality to the group's work. However it may be of use to have layman's postings also availible. I would also suggest elections for these posts (or at least most of them) rather than selection from up high, as that is more likely to be approved of by the community, and increases the likelihood that a given member will be generally respected. LinaMishima (talk) 21:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

When you guys talk about the wikipedia community electing a content arbcom, you miss the entire point. The wikipedia community has no credibility in determining who to pick as an expert on a given claim. Universities and the like do. We pick institutions that wish to coordinate their expert volunteers. Misplaced Pages is not qualified to decide that User:WAS is an expert in H5N1. We can decide that Harvard as an institution is qualified to find an expert volunteer in replying to a claim in dispute that has reached arbcom and arbcom passes to them. If wikipedia is going to start voting on who is to decide an issue of fact, then we are truly lost without any credibility at all. Misplaced Pages's community can identify credible institutions that do have credibility and that's what we need to do. WAS 4.250 (talk) 22:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I should have been clearer - academic institutions should nominate, then the community picks, or at the very least all persons standing must have some form of institutional backing. The need for the community to be involved in picking the board is clear - without that aspect, people will claim it is an attempt to get around consensus and the like. Basically, we must use the system for our own ends, not insist on some novel method, however more appropriate a novel method may be. LinaMishima (talk) 22:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is an excellent idea to have the community approve/disapprove a volunteer outside expert for a specific category of claim (physics, music, etc) who has been first identified by an accredited credible institution as an expert in a given area or for a given claim. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I think both have a place here. Of course, we need more outside independent review, one way or another to have more credibility. And academia is a perfect place to look towards.

However, I think something like an internal Science Guild and/or science editorial board might be of some use. The Science Guild could consist both of individuals with verified credentials, and those invited into the Guild, possibly creating an organization with multiple levels accordingly. There are many day-to-day functions that could be dealt with a structure like this. Presumably we would only go outside for reviews or to mediate problems once or twice a year, and it would be unreasonable to ask an outside body to be more intimately involved. For day to day questions and decisions and advice, the internal body would be relied on. One might imagine the Science Guild as functioning like the US Presidential Science Advisor, or US National Academy of Sciences. Many content questions dealing with science are sent to Arbcomm, which usually has nothing to say, and the issue continues to brew or fester.--Filll (talk) 22:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A two-tier approach could work well, but verified identities are required. The current ArbCom system, that allows editors to contribute to decisions can be appropriated to allow others to be involved. I would also strongly recommend that if we bring this proposal forward, that we do it for all content areas, not just for 'scientific' articles (I'm sure a history or film studies professor would not approve of being called not a science, even though it is a different form to the physical sciences). By covering all areas, this would seem less biased, and help all areas equally. LinaMishima (talk) 22:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

This second "tier" sounds like a cross between proposals to allow projects extra authority over "their" articles and something I proposed that went nowhere which was a policy addition that said expert opinion counted for more than non-expert opinion in evaluating which sources were more reliable for a given claim. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Since you already have been thinking in this direction, that tells me we might be on the right track.

The difference between science and other areas is that it is much easier to distinguish mainstream from nonmainstream material in science, in most cases. Also, the material that is strongest on Misplaced Pages in general is science, and most professional scientists use Misplaced Pages in their work according to surveys. The opposite is true in the humanities where Misplaced Pages is almost universally viewed as a pile of crap, and a quick view at a few articles in the humanities suggests why.

On the other hand, if a system like this works, it could easily be extrapolated to all areas.--Filll (talk) 23:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Filll, quite seriously, you will be very much at home in Citizendium. It's a good project, but rather slow moving, and could use some help. I'm there occasionally myself for the change in atmosphere. Why dont you join also? DGG (talk) 04:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

DGG, I responded to you when you suggested this before. Did you see it and see fit to respond? If you want to get into this, let's really do it someplace, although this might not be the best place to clog with such things. And actually, why do you personally not leave Misplaced Pages and join Citizendium? After all, you have no problems with anonymity clearly. (I am sorry if this seems uncivil or offensive in any way I do not intend it to be so.)--Filll (talk) 15:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, there is nothing wrong with people who see the merits of both places, editing in both places. I think it is even widely encouraged. Of course, not everyone will be able to (or welcome to) edit Citizendium, or wish to edit under their real name, so there will always be that problem. Carcharoth (talk) 15:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes thanks for the observation about the humanities. How true that is, and of Philosophy the truest, sadly. On Citizendium, I have an account there and made some contributions, but there is nothing like writing Medieval philosophy, say, and getting #1 on Google. It took about a month before google even recognised the existence of the equivalent article on Citizendium, and it is far from #1. User:Renamed user 4

Theres something about this proposal which I find quite unsettling. Such a content ArbCom would have a lot of power to shape the tone of the encyclopaedia. What we might find is powerful grouping emerge to get their own candidates onto the committee. In effect this could transform a lot of small disputes into one big "presidential" election with all its associated drama.

The obvious current equivalent is WP:RFC. Of the many discussion processes on wikipedia RFC's seem to be one of the weakest. Are there any ways in which the RFC system can be improved? Would fixed cut off dates, transcluded sub-pages (as in AfD), or a change in format help?. --Salix alba (talk) 11:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal: Draft Suggestion Paper

After we have collected a suitable number of ideas on these pages, I propose that we draft a "suggestion paper" including a summary of the main ideas, and their advantages and disadvantages.--Filll (talk) 17:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

After streamlining, in depth discussion, and refinement of the ideas then yes(I'm guessing you mean that) that would be a very progressive move. Jefffire (talk) 17:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes of course. We need a lot more ideas and a lot more discussion and refinement. Once we collect the ideas and have some ideas about what the advantages and disadvantages are of each, we would have something that others could consider for possible implementation. A position paper. And THEN if we were able to get the attention of someone in a position of authority, some of them might be considered for testing or implementation.--Filll (talk) 18:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I've put my thoughts on the talk page. Not quite sure what the difference is between this page and that. Carcharoth (talk) 19:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Great idea! See below. Raymond Arritt (talk) 15:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Referenda, Plebiscites

I have wondered if there was a way to get more voting on Referenda or Plebiscites by Wikipedians, and to draw more attention to issues and get more input. We can get a fair amount of voting on Arbcomm votes and on RfAs. Can we get more voting on Referenda and Plebiscites? What about an announcement at the top of the watchlist page during the voting period? What about an announcement in the Misplaced Pages Signpost?

Some of these issues we are discussing here need more input and more publicizing.--Filll (talk) 23:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You could try {{Cent}}. This discussion is big enough now to justify being a centralised discussion, IMO. Also, look at Category:Misplaced Pages discussion. Off the top of my head, the places people suggest advertising something include: WP:VPP, WP:AN (I know, but still), WP:MAIL (ie. the wiki-en mailing list), and as you say, the Signpost and watchlist announcement - the latter is very unlikely though. Carcharoth (talk) 15:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal : Reliable sources guidelines written by each project

I dreamed this up last night. Haven't reflected very long on it though... But it seems workable. WAS 4.250 (talk) 14:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good, but it relies on the projects being "good" and not taken over by, well, I won't use the word being bandied about, but those who are convinced of their views, which are not the mainstream science POV. ie. It relies on the projects being populated by experts who come up with good guidelines on reliable sources. How good are the WikiProjects for the various sciences anyway? Carcharoth (talk) 15:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

That is why some have suggested anchoring whatever we do to (1) outside academic experts or panels etc (2) an "elite" of experts who have dropped anonymity here and have identified and allowed their credentials to be verified. That would help considerably. I apologize if this suggestion is viewed as uncivil or offensive in any way andn I apologize to anyone who is offended.--Filll (talk) 15:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds very reasonable. No need for anyone to be offended, though they might disagree, of course! I generally agree, with the proviso that people will get upset if the expert or panel are, or appear to be, arrogant and dismissive. Diplomacy is needed in this sort of environment, even under severe provocation. Carcharoth (talk)

This could well backfire. Any attempt to pay formal respect to expertise -- and especially, credentials -- is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. Raymond Arritt (talk) 15:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Draft of essay / position paper

I've started User:Raymond arritt/Expert withdrawal/Draft where we can begin summarizing the main points from our discussion. You'll note that I've couched the issue in slightly different terms. My original choice of "expert" as a shorthand for "person grounded in reality" has led to some misunderstandings: we're not concerned with creating more deference to experts, but with creating less deference to those with fringe views. In this spirit I've chosen to title the essay "Challenges to the integrity of Misplaced Pages." (Some might prefer "Coping with kooks," but that's a bit over the top...) I think the essay will work best if it's concise and as non-confrontational as possible. Raymond Arritt (talk) 15:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Should we put some diff's in to show some of the problems? For example, diffs from long term disruption in part of editors that are eventually banned. It might make for a more compelling case. If we would do this, it might be good to split up the work over a variety of topics. Just an idea. Baegis (talk) 20:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

We need to make this more visible

In order to bring attention to this, I suggest creating a boilerplate to display on the article pages that indicate that experts in the subjects have refused to edit the article until the community helps resolve the problem. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that is a bad idea for several reasons. Seems to violate WP:CANVAS and WP:POINT as well as being either inaccurate or worthless as any truly accurate statement that "users x, y, and z are not editing this article because they are not getting their way" is just going to be laughed at. WAS 4.250 (talk) 17:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

If pro-science editors boycotting articles actually doesn't harm them, then that's a lot of time a lot of editors will have back. Review User:PouponOnToast/EW. It is not a violation of WP:POINT to not take action, it is not a violation of WP:CANVAS to ask people to not fix problems. PouponOnToast (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that placing a boilerplate will do a lot to make the issue more visible. It is not a violation of WP:POINT for us to place something like this on the page:

Various Wikipedian experts are on strike from editing this article until an effective policy for dealing with disruptive editors is implemented. Please note that content here may not be verifiable nor neutral. Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page.

It's not appropriate for the article page, IMHO. Talk is a different story. PouponOnToast (talk) 17:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's appropriate for any Misplaced Pages article at all. ~ UBeR (talk) 19:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Any campaign to make wikipedia worse by encouraging experts to not contribute is an attempt not to help wikipedia, but to harm wikipedia. Spamming notices about the wiki trying to get good contributors to help less is and will be seen as disruption that must be deleted and the disruptors as traitors to be excommunicated. WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a campaign right now to make wikipedia worse by encouraging experts not to contribute. You're ignoring that one because it's dishonest, deceitful and basically evil. You're noticing this one because it's proponents are not bad people. PouponOnToast (talk) 20:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I noticed this one because Misplaced Pages Review is promoting and encouraging the idea that experts stop editing wikipedia and are pointing to this effort on this page to do just that as something to encourage. I came to this page to encourage other better ways of handling the problems mentioned. Many people at Misplaced Pages Review wish to destroy Misplaced Pages and think efforts to get experts to not contribute is an excellent means to that end. WAS 4.250 (talk) 22:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

BADSITES BADSITES BADSITES? How ironic, given who they think I am. If you feel that an expert boycot would be bad for the encyclopedia, do something to make the experts feel welcome, something like, say, stoping the consistant sanctions war over every psuedoscientific topic out there? PouponOnToast (talk) 22:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I think a Content Arbcom is needed to end unending content disputes. WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

WAS, your attitude is unfortunately typical of what is broken here at Misplaced Pages. Rather than actually trying to solve the problem, you deny a problem even exists. Shot info (talk) 23:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a problem with reading or thinking? At no time or place have I denied wikipedia has problems. In fact on this very page I offered two separate solutions to the problems this page is about. And so you are now claiming that I have offered solutions to problems that I deny exist? Complete idiocy like you just displayed is what is wrong with wikipedia. Go slap yourself with a trout as punishment. WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The correct thing for scientists to do on wikipedia

I disagree with:

"Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to withdraw from the project."

See Integrated Multi-Trophic Aquaculture for an article written by scientists who are experts on this subject and therefor wanted an article in wikipedia on it. I wikified it for them and they thanked me.

Working scientists should create useful content on specialized subjects that they are experts on, and then let others maintain the page, other than checking it every month or so. If it turns into a cesspool like Homeopathy, then abandon it to the warriors. The current effort to stop any editing by scientists is pointless drama by science-minded warriors at wikipedia. No scientist who does not get off on battling in cyberspace would engage in these endless turf wars on controversial articles. I'm glad they do, but I don't so I won't. If they don't enjoy the fighting anymore, they can just stop fighting on those articles. There are plenty of science subjects that need articles and won't require fighting to keep them accurate. WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Tagging articles with documented off-wiki canvassing

Piggybacking on the above idea, I would throw out there that we should have a article-talk-space tag indicating when an article has been the subject of documented off-wiki canvassing to promote a particular POV. For example:

There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article. If you've come here in response to such recruitment, please review the relevant Misplaced Pages policy on recruitment of editors, as well as the neutral point of view policy. Disputes on Misplaced Pages are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote.

Off-wiki canvassing is a frequent occurrence; this recent example on homeopathy comes to mind, but I could just as easily produce calls for motivated fringe-POV-pushers on AIDS denialism or intelligent design, among many others. It might be useful to tag high-risk articles with links to the off-wiki canvassing; if nothing else, the heightened visibility might lead to the canvassing postings being taken down. MastCell 18:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Great idea. As the saying goes, Just Do It. Anybody can make a template. In fact, I think I just did. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Probably not going to happen - "Finished Articles"

I would like to see a Misplaced Pages:Finished article policy. I believe this would go a long way towards solving some of the problems discussed above. No article is ever really "finished" at Misplaced Pages but it should be easier than it is to protect well written articles developed by consensus. Good, well rounded articles about fringe topics have been developed in the past and shouldn't require babysitting. For example Intelligent Design has reached Featured Article status. The paranormal-related Spring Heeled Jack used to be a Featured Article but was worn down over time. It shouldn't require old editors protecting it constantly from new editors who want to slant it. All that does is burn out established editors. If there were a "Finished Article" policy that pretty much locked "finished" articles and required consensus for substantial changes, editors wouldn't get burnt out by the constant back and forth among points of view. It would go a long way towards protecting science and medical related articles from this burnout effect. Once an article is developed to Featured Article status, it could apply as a "Finished Article", and then be somewhat locked down to prevent POV pushes in any direction. For a criteria that defines a "Finished Article", I'm thinking along the lines of WP:1.0. Let's face it, working on these articles, and working with the varying viewpoints involved, is hard work. Currently the only pay-off after months and months of hard work is that the article is stable for a few weeks until another jackass comes along. Misplaced Pages:Finished article would both solve the problems of denigration and also give editors some sort of pay-off for their time in the trenches. --Nealparr 01:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Neal, this is similar to the idea behind Veropedia: make an archive of good Misplaced Pages articles that will be guarded from deterioration. You might want to think about participating there. See http://www.veropedia.org/ Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

For some reason the Barenaked Ladies song It's All Been Done comes to mind : ) --Nealparr 02:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Neal, FWIW such a policy can be easily taken up here in Misplaced Pages only if certain admins were more interested in this thing called an encyclopedia instead of treating Misplaced Pages as some social experiment to see if the next new editor is the best editor eva... Shot info (talk) 07:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

How do you know when an article is truly "finished"? Especially with regard to science articles; every year science makes many discoveries that make a mockery of thinking that was previously orthodox. I've heard this idea before with regard to biographies of long-dead people, but even the dead have a curious habit of changing, with discoveries of long-lost correspondence, publication of new research about them, new reflections in popular culture etc etc. Not a workable option, I'm afraid. --Dweller (talk) 11:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, all that is required is for admins lock down controversial pages more often and for longer periods. More and more wikipedia articles are getting so good that most changes are reverted as just making the article worse. It is time to treat well written articles with no recent history of improvement as free to lock down until a request is made on the talk page accompanied with a useful addition or change suggestion. WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe the Misplaced Pages:Flagged revisions proposal would be the best way to approach this. Sχeptomaniac 20:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Welcome

I don't suppose it's necessary for me to say that the scientists here--actually, everyone who can work within our modest rules--is welcome to join the Citizendium. Why not give it a try? Within a few years, we'll probably have grown exponentially (we're already growing at an accelerating rate), and there will then clearly be no reason to avoid us. --Larry Sanger (talk) 03:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Hear, hear! The only thing that has discouraged me is that CZ didn't fork more WP content. Do you think quality over quantity has proven to be the right call? I love everything else about it, and otherwise only lack of time has stopped me from going for it. best regards, Jim Butler 05:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Larry, a year ago I would have disagreed with you. But it appears that the current model of Misplaced Pages is a victim of it's own success and it is suffering for it. O well, time to leave the pseudoscientific articles to suffer under the weight of the misinterpretration of NPOV... Shot info (talk) 05:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Unless Misplaced Pages can recognize some of these problems and begin to address them, or experiment with other approaches, then it will fail in certain areas, clearly.

For example, if one lets anyone edit, one will get articles reading like anyone wrote them. And if you survey the general public in the US, only 35% do not believe in haunted houses, only 18% do not believe in psychic healing, only 32% do not believe in demonic possession, only 34% do not believe in ghosts, only 42% do not believe in telepathy, only 40% do not believe that extraterrestrial beings have visited Earth, only 43% do not believe in fortune telling and prophecy, 44% in communication with the dead, 54% do not believe in astrology, and 55% do not believe in reincarnation.

So how do you think the average American would write articles on science and pseudoscience? Let's face it, science is going to lose every time. A minority of the average potential editors rejects mysticism and magic. So guess what your average editor and average admin is going to do when faced with a choice between science and magic and/or mysticism?

And the same is true in all areas where expertise is required, because the average person editing will believe nonsense and then put nonsense in the article.

So we have to find better methods of combatting this, or else defect to Citizendium.--Filll (talk) 05:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you tell me where you got that???? Thanks much (-: ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Polls were conducted by Bryan Farha at Oklahoma City University and Gary Steward of the University of Central Oklahoma in 2006, and compared to the results of a Gallup poll in 2001. They found fairly consistent results.

Other surveys by different organizations at different times have found very similar results. A 2001 Gallup Poll found that the general public embraced the following: 54% of people believed in psychic/spiritual healing, 42% believed in haunted houses, 41% believed in satanic possession, 36% in telepathy, 25% in reincarnation, and 15% in channeling. A survey by Jeffrey S. Levin, associate professor at Eastern Virginia Medical School, Norfolk found that over 2/3 of the U.S. population reported having at least one mystical experience.

A 1996 Gallup poll estimated that 71% of the people in the United States believed that the government was covering up information about UFOs. A 2002 Roper poll conducted for the Sci Fi channel reported that 56% thought UFOs were real craft and 48% that aliens had visited the Earth.

A 2001 National Science Foundation survey found that 9 percent of people polled thought astrology was very scientific, and 31 percent thought it was somewhat scientific. About 32% of Americans surveyed stated that some numbers were lucky, while 46% of Europeans agreed with that claim. About 60% of all people polled believed in some form of Extra-sensory perception and 30% thought that UFOs were "some of the unidentified flying objects that have been reported are really space vehicles from other civilizations." New Scientist reported in 2006 that almost 2/3 of Americans believe they share less than half their genes with "monkeys", when in fact the figure is much closer to 95-99%, depending on the primates involved and the study used.--Filll (talk) 02:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey, that's great research Filll. I hope you don't mind, but I copied and pasted it into the paranormal article. --Nealparr 08:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Cool, thanks (: Never heard it put negatively the way you did it above "those who don't believe". Where is that from tho? I can't find it by using google, the nearest is Level of support for evolution, but that doesn't have all the info. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Um this is trivial to find. Tons and tons of this stuff. If this is not enough for you, go to the NSF. And literally hundreds if not thousands of other places. This kind of information is unbelievably easy to find. People in general are as dumb as stumps and will believe anything any moron tells them.--Filll (talk) 04:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Take the two-thirds of Americans that believe the story of Noah's Ark and the global flood is literally true. Terjen (talk) 06:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

How Google Works

I've seen editors here (and elsewhere) suggest that it may be a good idea to defect to a different wiki, one more science-focused. If I may, I'd like to offer my expertise on why those suggestions aren't good ideas, especially if you're trying to build a useful reference for science related topics, one that teaches science, helps inform the masses, and is the "de facto" reference source. I come from a web development background and while many may be aware of how Google and other popular search engines work, not everyone does. So here is the technical reasons why you shouldn't defect.

1. Google ranks web pages by popularity first. Popularity is defined by how many sites link to a page. The reasoning is that if many sites link to a page, it must be a comprehensive treatment of the topic, in other words "a good source". This is the best that computer science and artificial ranking can offer. It doesn't take into account human values, just what a computer can determine is a "good value".
2. Google also looks at page structure. Is it a well-formed page in terms of HTML structure? Google (obviously) has determined that MediaWiki structures pages well.

Those two factors are what causes Misplaced Pages pages to turn up first in search engine queries on topics. The second is less important if the alternate wiki is based on MediaWiki, for example Citizendium. The first is very important.

Everyone links to Misplaced Pages. Bloggers do it (Google sees blog linking habits as important). News articles sometimes do it (Google sees outbound links from news sources as important). Nearly every link to a wiki (and it is common to link to wikis for background info) is a link to Misplaced Pages. This is what has caused Misplaced Pages articles to surface as the first or second link in queries at Google.

Can you duplicate that at an alternate wiki, for example Citizendium? Probably not. Everyone will continue linking to Misplaced Pages regardless of the quality of the articles, and Misplaced Pages will continue being the de facto source for all topics. It is very unlikely that the masses in general, not necessarily scientists, will start linking somewhere other than Misplaced Pages. Instead, they'll just assume that an article on Misplaced Pages related to science is as good, or good enough, as an article on Britney Spears. Only experts will see a quality difference, consider that quality difference to be important, and experts are by definition always the minority.

An expert based wiki/encylopedia will never receive the inbound links required to rise to the top of search engine queries. In other words it ends up being an encyclopedia only for internal use, an encyclopedia by scientists for scientists and one that no one outside of science will read.

It won't solve the problems editors here are saying needs to be solved. That from-scientists-for-scientists article on Creationism will be buried, Misplaced Pages's article on Creationism will continue to be dominant in search engine queries, and the masses will continue to be scientifically illiterate on Creationism. If the goal of science is to teach and clear up misrepresentations of science, why would scientists ever want to abandon Misplaced Pages, considering it's technical position in terms of computer science, how the web currently works, and its potential as a teaching tool? How many millions of dollars are spent on creating public awareness of science, combating scientific illiteracy, and so forth. Here it's free! Somewhere above I read someone say that there's no incentive for scientists to contribute. Of course there is. --Nealparr 07:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

And by the way, whatever scientist wrote the modus tollens article, thank you. I used it recently to win an argument. Before my stint at Misplaced Pages, I wasn't even aware of it. --Nealparr 07:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

When the bloggersphere begins to move, Google will follow it. Misplaced Pages is on a downwards spiral, a product of it's own success (and fame). All that is needed is it's leadership to allow admins to enforce policy (rather than leaving up to certain "rogue" elements). Gradually as the editing community splits and fragments, those who can abuse the system "best" here at Misplaced Pages will stay. The others will go elsewhere. Gradually the "rest-of-the-world" will see that for what it is and say so. It happened before Misplaced Pages and it will happen when Misplaced Pages sails itself into idiotic POV pushing irrelevancy...besides, it's only the articles that attract the hordes of netkooks that are in need of admin reform. The rest of the project seems to be sort of ok (although in saying that, firmer hands the admins would be appriciated in almost all talk pages in any articles I wander through). Shot info (talk) 07:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with "Misplaced Pages is on a downward spiral". Misplaced Pages has lots of problems, and has always had lots of problems. But our problems are getting fixed (too slowly tis true). Misplaced Pages, the encyclopedia and the community, every year are better than the year before. We have fresh blood in a new revitalized arbcom, are hiring people to raise funds in a professional manner in our new home San Francisco, and are gonna join with Creative Commons and the Free Software Foundation so that the next GFDL version is nothing other than the next version of the Creative Commons CC-BY-SA licence so that we are finally compatible and have an appropriate licence for wiki created work. These are cornerstones being fixed. Misplaced Pages has always been an encyclopedia in the making. Our success has led us to the delightful problem of having lots of articles good enough to protect as finished. That is not a downward spiral. Quite the opposite. WAS 4.250 (talk) 17:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I have to say, I disagree. Or rather, that scenario is unlikely. In the computer world you have what's called the "killer app". On the web you have killer sites. There are search engines that provide more functionality or more specialized searches than Google, but everyone still uses Google (by everyone I'm speaking generally). There are better shopping experiences than eBay or Amazon, but everyone still shops there. Once a killer site comes along that fills a niche so well, it's very difficult for the web to make a massive shift. Misplaced Pages filled that niche on popular encyclopedias for the masses. Revolutions only occur in unfilled niches. I'm sorry to say, but there's not going to be a huge revolution that switches everything from a social encyclopedia back to a top-down expert driven encyclopedia. It's just not going to happen. That's the way encyclopedia's have been always been published, and it's fallen out of fashion. In other words, the blogosphere won't adopt it, certainly not for this reason -- remember, pseudoscience is vastly more popular than science and there's more pseudoscience bloggers than science bloggers. Experts are always the minority. Might as well dig in and try your best to improve Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages doesn't need experts. Experts need Misplaced Pages so their views aren't misrepresented in front of the masses who will continue to use it, more so than anything else. --Nealparr 08:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I see Neal's point but there's more at work. There's a view held by some here that it's better to allow a bad article to become obviously bad than to look good enough superficially. Then people will begin looking at other sources of information. Maybe there's room for more than one popular wiki -- Misplaced Pages for those who want exhaustive knowledge of Pokemon characters or bands who have sold 37 copies of their latest CD, with Citizendium or Veropedia for serious topics. (And of course Conservapedia for... um, people who read Conservapedia.) I have no idea what will happen and no firm ideas about what I think should happen. Time will tell. Raymond Arritt (talk) 07:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to the Encyclopedia of Life, which will be a beautiful teaching tool, and has expert-driven wiki features. That will be popularized by academics, and probably be encouraged as a tool for use in schools. It's not going to be as popular as Misplaced Pages, though, ever, and nearly all of it will be lost on Creationists who will never visit it because they don't understand evolution anyway. I asked ScienceApologist once why he bothers editing fringe paranormal topics if his goal was to teach science on Misplaced Pages, my thinking being that the only people who reads paranormal articles are people who think paranormal stuff is cool. He said that potentially anyone could read an article on the paranormal and mistake it for real science, instead of something folkloric. Well, I guarantee that people looking for information on paranormal topics aren't going to go to EoL (there's nothing there for them), so that potential to educate them on mainstream science's position is lost. Same thing with Intelligent Design or any other topic not supported by mainstream science. Scientists will have their academic wikis, like EoL, but the masses will continue to suffer scientific illiteracy, something that certainly doesn't help science's cause. That's why I say, of course scientists benefit from contributing to Misplaced Pages. You know how much the Encyclopedia of Life website cost? ($100 Million ) : ) And the people who really need convincing about biology aren't even going to go there. --Nealparr 08:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Neal, as I say, I'm with you on this. There is a huge battle for civilisation going on here, and the main problem is that the forces of good do not even realise this is going on. It's like Augustine having these learned disputes on the nature of the Trinity at the very same time the vandals and the Goths were beating down the gates of the city and the Roman empire was collapsing. It's exactly like that. User:Renamed user 4

I've seen this argument before and it's not a compelling one not to switch to Citizendium. We don't join because it's not popular enough and it's not popular enough because we don't join. There's a faulty logic to that, and the solution to that problem, in my eyes, is simple. ~ UBeR (talk) 17:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, a reasonable person would ask why join in the first place? I've outlined that above within the context of what's being discussed here, but Citizendium has their own page that explains it pretty well. ~ UBeR (talk) 17:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The logic behind what I'm saying is that if you'd like to clear up misconceptions about science among the masses, you go where the masses are, rather than making a 100% accurate encyclopedia that the masses won't read. There's really no reason why one couldn't do both, since the technology behind making that happen mostly boils to to copy and paste. --Nealparr 18:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

But it's not free

How many millions of dollars are spent on creating public awareness of science, combating scientific illiteracy, and so forth. Here it's free! Somewhere above I read someone say that there's no incentive for scientists to contribute. Of course there is. --Nealparr 07:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Once again, this diff shows why it's not free, and why there is no incentive (indeed, a disincentive). Until a few dollars from the millions being spent on programs to combat scientific illiteracy are diverted into a grant to pay for this guy contributing to Misplaced Pages, rather than being blamed for it by his Chair.

It's only free for cranks and trolls who have no hope of ever being published in an authoritative peer-reviewed journal. User:Renamed user 4

Do you mean it's not free as in time spent, like he should be working on something else? Or are you saying that poor guy is penalized for the content of a Misplaced Pages article? --Nealparr 08:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The first. Brian wrote some good stuff and I encouraged him to stay, but it was mostly displacement activity for what he really should have been doing, i.e. getting stuff published in 'proper' journals and getting his tenure. Obviously he mentioned he was doing stuff in Misplaced Pages to the Department, and they took a dim view. The department is trying to market itself to potential students, sponsors, government agencies &c and peer-reviewed publications by department staff is a big marker for that effort, indeed it goes into some of the ratings I believe. Getting articles into Misplaced Pages isn't. User:Renamed user 4

Hey, I can't argue with that. Misplaced Pages editing instead of doing what you're supposed to be doing is an addiction I'm struggling with myself : ) I doubt any of my clients would accept "but I was busy talking to this guy on Misplaced Pages" as an excuse. All I'm saying is that there's an enormous potential benefit there despite trolls, debates, arguments, and what not. I'm not arguing against fixing Misplaced Pages to make it easier. I'm pointing out the technical (and perhaps also philosophical) problems with jumping ship. --Nealparr 08:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey and I agree with you too. I'm just saying that, currently, it's not free, given the relative cost to a scientist writing for Misplaced Pages is greater than for a crank, and this creates a huge natural advantage for the crank. It will only be resolved by a campaign in academia to get them to understand how it works, and perhaps encourage the idea of grants to sponsor Misplaced Pages work, in the public interest. On the former I wrote to an academic recently pointing out some flaws in an article. He replied, agreeing that the article was wrong, but saying 'Your chances of improving the article are limited. By its very nature, Misplaced Pages is a collection of internet links'. How dismissive, and wrong, but that is what you are up against. Another, who I regularly correspond with, cannot understand why anyone would write anything they cannot sign. He compared it to the work of the medieval scribes who toiled to preserve all the ancient classical learning, anonymously, and without thanks for the great store of knowledge we have today. Yes, there is a benefit, but it needs to be 'monetized'. User:Renamed user 4

Philcha's point idea

"Pseudointellectuals, POV pushers, uncivil assholes, and egomaniacs will always be a problem" looks like a growing problem; and it's increasingly hard for editors and admins to control as Misplaced Pages grows. I suggest a more automated approach is needed, e.g.: articles get "points" for each access; editors get points for each edit in each category; edits from people whose points for the relevant category (highest applicable category if several) are less than the article's score are put on a "to be reviewed" list; articles that get a lot of abuse can have their thresholds raised; editors who clearly violate published Misplaced Pages rules can have their scores reduced; editors who are proven experts in their fields get their scores for these fields boosted. Philcha (talk) 08:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

(Cross posted from my talk page).--Filll (talk) 16:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Similar problems elsewhere

The issues you're highlighting here are very much also a problem in other areas of Misplaced Pages - perhaps more so, if anything. Personally I think it's indicative of a general failure of governance across the project. You may be interested in seeing this: Misplaced Pages:Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. I wonder if there would be scope for something similar to address the problems with science articles? -- ChrisO (talk) 08:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yup. "A general failure of governance across the project" puts it in a nutshell. Thanks. Raymond Arritt (talk) 08:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

No I think this is a very harmful analogy. Science is not some particular point of view, or 'official position' on something. It's not like the scientific position is that the universe was created 14 billion years ago, whereas the YE creationist position is that it was created 6,000 years ago. Not at all. Science is a method, not a position. The method is to look at all the evidence for a particular position, and see if the evidence logically supports it, or positively refutes it. The 'best' explanation so far is that the earth was created 14 billion years ago. To suppose that science is some kind of position or view leads to SPOV vs NPOV nonsense and then you have to accommodate all 'significant viewpoints'. Science POV = NPOV. On the failure of governance, where is the failure? Agreeing with Neal above, the real problem is that in many areas there is no critical mass of experts. My experience is a small number of experts is enough to defeat any number of trolls (because experts by their nature agree on the sources, and the NPOV method, whereas the trolls disagree with one another). But experts seem to be leaving in droves, and that is what is causing the problem. SA seemed to be fighting a single-handed battle at one point. User:Renamed user 4

A small number of experts can defeat any number of trolls when Misplaced Pages works the way it's supposed to. But more and more, the trolls find a sympathetic admin who lambastes the experts for biting a newbie (even when the troll has been here for months) or unblocks the troll for yet another "last chance." Misplaced Pages's policies are good but they're being ignored or subverted. WP:IAR is supposedly the foremost rule, yet in practice we have a strict obey-all-rules policy when a case hits arbcom. WP:NPOV is great as written but in practice we get a fatuous "some say the earth is round but others say it is flat" parody of neutrality. It doesn't matter how many experts we get when the deck is stacked in favor of anti-science fringe types viewed as the feisty underdogs fighting the big bad scientific establishment. Raymond Arritt (talk) 09:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

What we need is more technically literate admins who can address these issues. Would you stand? Stephen B Streater (talk) 09:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Done that already and if I had to do it again there's no way I'd pass... Raymond Arritt (talk) 10:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

<undent> Allow me to interject a little. I have recently engaged some with one of our admins here about this. This admin is actively and even almost frantically promoting pseudoscience here because it is "fair". As I have noted elsewhere here, well over half the US public believes in what we might call mystical or magical thinking, or pseudoscience. So is it any wonder that we get admins who let their own personal views color things and are amenable to the arguments that science has no place on Misplaced Pages, particularly in pseudoscience articles? --Filll (talk) 19:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Arbcom are the problem. Thankfully I'm not dealing directly with it at the moment, I don't have the time or the patience right now but there's no real recourse against POV pushing of any kind on Misplaced Pages. Every level of dispute resolution on Misplaced Pages essentially asks you to resolve the content problem yourself, and will only censure for behaviour considered uncivil. Arbcom are particularly bad at handing out these kind of judgements. As they say they don't do "content disputes". As a result we're seeing the same articles and editors being brought up over and over again. Theirs isn't an easy job, and I respect them for it - but they're not making their jobs any easier by giving space to POV-vandals.

The purpose of Misplaced Pages of course isn't to establish truth, but to present the evidence. I'm not asking Arbcom to establish the wording of a page, but they do need to recognise which editors are capable of doing so. However, editors who cannot edit constructively, and demonstrate no intention of doing so, should be admonished and then shot (banished) - the assumption of good faith is far too great, and as noted above, has driven many away, and is threatening to drive some of the pillars of Misplaced Pages away. Unfortunately, most of the bureaucracy here (and Misplaced Pages has one, despite protestations otherwise) is completely head in the clouds about these issues. Mostlyharmless (talk) 22:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Well the alarm bell has to be sounded, and reasonable alternatives to consider and try have to be presented. What I think most admins here is missing is that the POV pushers loathe NPOV, or do not understand it, or misinterpret it. And no amount of wikilove and explaining is going to change that to someone who is deluded, or even mentally ill.--Filll (talk) 22:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It might be worthwhile to try something similar to Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Macedonia, where discretionary sanctions include blocks for incivility, disruption, and edit-warring. --Ronz (talk) 22:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Rule of law

Unfortunately, being accommodating leads to the current mess, because we cannot accommodate all desires, particularly when everyone has a different idea of what is needed. And that was our mistake, for retreating from the conflict instead of finding ways to remove the unconstructive elements. It might feel good to WP:AGF and do whatever someone is asking, but it is ultimately bad for the articles, bad for Misplaced Pages, and bad for long term productivity of all contributors.

There is a reason that functioning societies have laws and the rule of law, and the police are empowered to act on the laws and we have courts and lawyers etc. It is folly to think that an environment that is more and more resembling society at large can not have a similar structure. We have laws here, but not the rule of law, and it is almost impossible for our "police" to enforce the rule of law. So therefore the citizens have to enforce things themselves and we get the rule of the jungle. It is pretty obvious.

Where would you rather live? Sweden or Afghanistan? Denmark or Colombia? Japan or Mexico? War zones or the Wild West exhibit the same characteristics that are developing on Misplaced Pages. If we refuse to enforce our laws, we will have problems. This does not mean we need to be authoritarian about it like North Korea. But we can find a better balance perhaps. --Filll (talk) 17:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Accommodating does not have to mean making changes. But discussing the problem in a professional way should be possible. When submitting a paper it is rare to address all the reviewers recommendations. But they are not ignored you have to rebut the criticisms. Part of an editors role is to moderate this exchange. True, we don't have editors here but I think self moderation is not unreasonable. One thing for sure is that unprofessional behaviour, from writers or reviewers, will never get the job done. We need to endeavor to keep the discussion at a level where all concerns are addressed and discussed to a mutual conclusion. This might be easy or hard but short tempers will never help. David D. (Talk) 19:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The lead of articles is always the trickiest part, even in a topic like integration someone is always coming along to rewrite it in their own words, usually to the detriment of the article. Yes constant vigilance is needed, that just part of the process. Its the same here as any endeavor if you garden you will be always weeding, don't like weeding - don't garden. --Salix alba (talk) 19:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Some people like the discussions eg about the lead. We had a great time in the Mathematics lead. Misplaced Pages is a great place to learn to communicate with independent minds. Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Need for change in atmosphere or procedures

I have had many tell me that WP:AGF is the only thing that matters, beyond all else. While I agree in principle, it depends on what one's adversaries are doing. If you just try to "wikilove" your opponents to death and they are dead set on pushing an anti-science agenda or some other nonsense, you will not always succeed, and if you do, it will take far longer than reasonable. What if the POV pusher resorts to meat puppetry or sock puppetry? What if they launch vexatious litigation? What if they curse you at every opportunity and refuse to discuss things rationally? Or in most cases, are literally unable to discuss things rationally? (After all, we have an immense number of people that are mentally disturbed and deficient in this world).

One could mount mediation requests and multiple RfCs and even go to Arbcomm or try other remedies. However, these consume hours and hours of time, and often have unsatisfactory results.

How willing is the community to waste many man hours of other volunteer workers? There are efficiency and productivity considerations here to be taken into account, and if the project does not think of these, it will suffocate in its own wastes.--Filll (talk) 19:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's bureaucratic procedures are mostly useful to keep the warriors busy while the rest of us edit noncontroversial articles. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

'Often have unsatisfactory results'. Usually is more accurate. I'd say 90% of the problem editing on Misplaced Pages won't pass RfC or Arbcom standards for censure. Mostlyharmless (talk) 22:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

There is another way around it: be polite and careful oneself, attract other editors into the discussion on the reasonable assumption that they will generally be sensible, and thus not get into a situation which needs arbcom at all. all that is needed for most articles that get attention is patience and persistence and a good case. The problem is mainly with seldom-visited articles that are owned, and for that a single RfC usually takes care of it. If the POV pusher alone is the one who resorts to improper behavior, it is usually fairly easy to stop or remove him; the difficult cases are where both sides have gotten into a situation where they have made major errors. Then it does take much work by the community to disentangle the mess. Those who are not prepared to work calmly on stress-provoking subjects should stay on articles that will not stress them. DGG (talk) 22:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

And if the POV pushers don't use uncivil behaviour, you have no recourse. Improper as you put isn't defined by arbitration as pushing a POV. I've been in dispute in the past with a person who wanted to put the opinion of a single journalist as equal that of those recognised as published experts in the field. But since the person was editing within 'the rules', I had nowhere to go and abandoned the article (being unwilling to spend my precious time fighting it over and over) Mostlyharmless (talk) 23:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This response of course illustrates the attitude received whenever these issues are mentioned. Mostlyharmless (talk) 23:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It costs us nothing to be civil. Yes, the fact that civility matters more than content is frustrating. But we can't change that. We've already got the deck stacked against us because of the anti-elitist (translate anti-expertise) bias that prevails. Why cede them more ground on civility? Let's all be unfailingly nice even if it kills us. Which in some cases it just may. ;-) Raymond Arritt (talk) 23:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Raymond. Civility gets results. See the case of Science Apologist, who has recently made great strides to abide by the trapings of civility required here. This has resulted in the opposite of his usual interactions with admins - he is complained about, but his complainants get blocked, because SA is the one that looks civil. You must appear civil at all times. If you cannot exude the sense of disconnected gravitas (review - User:Newyorkbrad, User:Theresa knott some prime examples) that gets results, try harder. Emulate the forms of success, and you will find success. PouponOnToast (talk) 23:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, civility is a virtue, and does get you a long way. ScienceApologist has had some substantial victories, but you only need look at the current Arbcom case on Homeopathy involving SA to see that it can only get you part of the way, and then you're on your own. I quote - "I do not believe that it is within the committee's capabilities to solve the problems raised here. We're not going to issue a remedy handing an unequivocal win to either the pro-homeopathy or pro-science caucuses. You're left with WP:NPOV and WP:RS."

"The scope of the arbitration case outlined is extraordinarily nebulous. It is not possible to imagine a resolution which would work without straying recklessly into areas of making content findings. " - Can you believe it? If it were not so routine it would be shocking.

You go round in circles and get asked to solve problems yourself - as if you were dealing with reasonable people. It can get extraordinarily stressful or tiring, and as noted above, the best thing to is to abandon those articles - it just isn't worth the stress. Mostlyharmless (talk) 23:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Heh, so "be civil to have somebody do their job as an admin". What is broken is the failure of Misplaced Pages to police itself. And if you have two people argueing, one is obviously a POV pusher and then goads the other into making an "uncivil" comment, bang... the crap band of admins we have say "sorry, your out and BTW we aren't punishing the POV pusher". If the admins got past their navally challenged egos, and actually read and looked at the problem...and then (I don't know...) acted on it, we wouldn't be here. But in saying that, most action taken by admins in AN/I is only by a minority, the remainder say things like "I don't see a problem here"....which is absolutely true, but it doesn't mean there isn't a problem, just a useless admin... So back to square 1, the lack of governance of Misplaced Pages. If the project doesn't solve it, it will be victim of it's own success. But that's fine, there will always be something else to replace it (MicroWiki??...Googlepedia???) and I'm sure the Project's competition would just looooove Misplaced Pages to consume itself. Shot info (talk) 23:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Knol. -- Levine2112 04:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. My first introduction to this problem was at black people. That article had a very bad problem with about 20 different POV groups that just talked past each other. I and a few others tried to get them to use a scientific approach, but it was hopeless.

I could not even get them to agree that they had different definitions of what a "black person" is. East Africa? West Africa? North or South of the Sahara? All of Africa? Only American? South Indians? Sri Lankan Tribes? Minority groups in China, Phillipines, Indonesia, Japan? Aboriginals in Australia? Different definitions of black in US law, Canadian Law, Australian law and UK law? Opinions of White Supremacists and Black Supremacists and PanAfricanists? Pseudohistory? NeoNazis? Are Jamaicans black? In The UK? In Jamaica? In the US? Is Obama black? Is Condaleeza Rice? Clarence Thomas? Does black have anything to do with color? Do you have to have a slave ancestry to be black? What about black Irish? Even the Caucasians are known locally in Asia as "black"? Are they? And so on and so forth.

Then other problems started to intrude, like some editors telling me to avoid discussing things with another because he was a Basque or something (Spanish separatist politics in a discussion like this???). Anyway, it was impossible, and I gave up and left. I am sure it is no better now, but at least I do not deal with it. If anyone thinks they can WP:AGF and get some science in the article, they are welcome to try. I would be extremely impressed, frankly.---Filll (talk) 23:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Synopsis

I wonder if all this long discussion can be boiled down to some sort of position paper when you're all done? There is so much discussion I'm finding it hard to monitor this talk. I recommend some or all of you start working on a combined essay with an associated Talk page. Or do you already have one?Wjhonson (talk) 23:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

We are collecting ideas for one but it is not yet written and then we can get more feedback.--Filll (talk) 23:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

A jumble of nonsense

Above, Zenwhat wrote:

"...if expert editors leave, the whole thing will collapse into a jumble of nonsense in an even worse condition than it is in now."

Well, that is the whole point. If that doesn't happen to a very noticeable degree, this exercise will be in vain, and that mustn't happen.

A few points to consider:

One boycotted article isn't enough. Maybe five of the most controversial articles spanning various fields should be made the subjects of this experiment. I suggest that we vote on these (others may be suggested) and choose the five that get the most votes:

• Abortion
• AIDS denialism
• Alternative medicine
• Atheism
• Electronic voice phenomenon
• Evolution
• Homeopathy
• Intelligent design
• List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts
• Quackery
• Vaccine controversy

Snalwibma has already voiced these thoughts above, and I basically agree.

The boycott must be maintained for at least a month, or, if an obvious "jumble of nonsense" that violates multiple policies here hasn't resulted, then it should be extended longer. The media will likely notice the best (worst) examples of mob rule.

To make it sufficiently effective, it should be obvious that the more nonsensical the edit, the more certain that it should not be touched by us. So even while observing such editing, it is vitally important to refrain from instinctively reverting nonsense. Maybe keep private notes about it for future reference, but maintain the boycott.

A list of fringe editors should also be compiled (off-wiki and by email). Their edits and comments, no matter where at Misplaced Pages, should be left untouched. Their poisonous influence needs to be felt by other editors on other articles. That will help to alert other editors to the insidious problem which these fringe editors present. I suggest that nominations be sent by email, and only mailings direct from registered users using this Misplaced Pages email should be accepted for security reasons.

This suggestion is designed as a boycott of certain editors. If they are allowed to edit unopposed, their actions will become more noticeable. THEY are a large part of the problem. The editing environment is because of their disruptions and failures to understand NPOV. Their actions need to be profiled by giving them their will. Hopefully changes will be made in the future that will help to more effectively deal with such editors.

Keep in mind that all this involves no acts that violate policy. It only requires our inaction. There is no violation of POINT, since editing here is a voluntary matter. It is not our obligation to edit, but it is the obligation of the Misplaced Pages community and upper echelon decision makers to create a more pleasant environment through policy changes and stricter enforcement policies of existing polices. Admins who violate policies and coddle tendentious and even banned editors need to be dealt with. Admins who unblock banned editors violate the community's trust and are party to the ensuing disruption which their actions cause. If their mentees cause problems, they should suffer the consequences (possible desysopping). -- Fyslee / talk 07:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Voting for articles

Just place your sig once under five different articles. When voting, I suggesting choosing articles that are extremely contentious, often locked, and which are the targets of certain fringe editors who need to be noticed by others. (I'll start...;-)

• Abortion

1. --Filll (talk) 19:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
2. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• AIDS denialism

1. -- Fyslee / talk 07:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
2. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
3. --Filll (talk) 19:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting that this is included, since the scientific view has been well & successfully defended at that article by other editors; I don't see that any of the ones above have ever edited it, so why are they boycotting what a/never had any help from them and b/doesn't need their help? DGG (talk) 15:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree - as a heavy editor of this article, I think it's actually in fairly good shape. Given the subject matter, there are inevitably drive-bys on the talk page, and half-hearted off-wiki attempts to galvanize a band of denialists to overwhelm and rewrite the article from a more "sympathetic" POV, but they get handled. Associated AIDS-denialism WP:COATRACK content is being cleaned up as I find it (e.g. passenger virus, T-Lymphocytopenia, zidovudine, etc), though it is surprisingly pervasive. I don't think a boycott is necessary; in fact, I'd encourage anyone interested in the topic to make suggestions for its improvement, since I think it's fairly good coverage but could benefit from outside viewpoints. MastCell 18:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Alternative medicine

1. -- Fyslee / talk 07:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
2. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
3. --Filll (talk) 19:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Atheism

• Electronic voice phenomenon

1. --Infophile 19:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
2. Shot info (talk) 23:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
3. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• Evolution

• Federal Reserve\Fractional-reserve banking

1. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• Homeopathy

1. -- Fyslee / talk 07:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
2. --Infophile 19:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
3. --Filll (talk) 19:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
4. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
5. Shot info (talk) 23:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Intelligent design

• List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts

1. -- Fyslee / talk 07:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
2. --Infophile 19:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
3. --Filll (talk) 19:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Shot info (talk) 23:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
5. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• Quackery

1. Shot info (talk) 23:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
2. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• Vaccine controversy

1. -- Fyslee / talk 07:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
2. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• Not prepared to take part in any boycott.

1. --Salix alba (talk) 08:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
2. --DGG (talk) 14:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Already don't waste my time on unending debate.

1. WAS 4.250 (talk) 09:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• I will support an experiment on a few articles, carefully monitored, but I do not want to characterize it as a strike or boycott. I want to develop and propose alternate techniques for improving the problems we are discussing.

1. Filll (talk) 17:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
2. Though I don't really care how we characterize it. It is what it is, whatever we call it. --Infophile 19:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
3. The problem is widespread, by no means confined to science articles. Misplaced Pages only manages to hang on to whatever credibility it has by relying on editors to guard articles. All the kiddie admins can do is to spot the obvious swear words or page blanking. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 02:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: Since other suggestions may be added, it is allowable to change your votes. -- Fyslee / talk 07:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

What the Bleep Do We Know? might be a good candidate, from what I have observed. We should pick articles that have not already been abandoned by the science and rational communities; for example black people was long ago abandoned, as far as I can tell. It was so ugly and toxic I have not been back for months.--Filll (talk) 19:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I added articles related to monetary crankery. To understand what I'm talking about, see this recent example.

Also, I don't understand why Atheism, Evolution, and Intelligent design are up there, because they generally look pretty good. However, it's true, again, they probably only look good because of people like us. It might be a good idea to propose boycotts of them as well, again, just to see how they'd turn out. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Haven't spent much time around the Atheism article, but I know the reason Evolution and Intelligent design are so good is because of all the defending that goes on. There's zero tolerance for trolls on them or their talk pages (first comment, they're referred to the talk pages. After that their comments are all userfied). --Infophile 06:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Semi-Automated Solution

In case this movement gains the desired notice, here's an outline that could be proposed.

I see two problems being pointed out here. 1) Established material is easily degraded, and 2) Experts can easily be overwhelmed.

I do not like Zenwhat's idea of graylists, except as an informal feature that might be promoted. However, a solution that utilizes as much automation as possible would be best. One method that could work fairly well for Misplaced Pages would be to use better article "versioning." Misplaced Pages's freely collaborative nature is a boon, but as noted in this page, it also allows for degeneration of content. In order to help prevent article degeneration, page sections should become much more prominent units than articles themselves. Content-oriented edits (as opposed to minor typo/grammar corrections) of existing page sections should NOT be immediately posted in all cases. Editors who are truly interested in the Misplaced Pages content do not need "instant gratification" IMO. Therefore, it may help to give Misplaced Pages article sections some measure of "protection" based on some measure of the "acceptance" of the page-section's content. "Acceptance" would be somewhat tricky to quantify, but it would certainly be related to section age, number of recent modifications, total number of pageviews, number of logged-in user pageviews, and time of last modification to that page-section. For example, a page section that is visited regularly by logged-in users that received 2 edits in the past 60 days would be given a much higher "acceptance" level than a brand new article section that has received 10 'distinct' edits in the past hour.

With an "acceptance" metric available, article sections could be automatically protected in various ways; this leads to the question of how such protection should be implemented. One could imagine that content edits are "blocked" in some way. A truly collaborative method would then require a majority of votes in order for a new version to be approved, but most volunteer projects cannot be trusted to accomplish this successfully. So, this may be an option, but cannot be the only option. This points to a need for "assumption of acceptability." Such a requirement could be accomplished by simply using the "acceptance level" to determine a proportional time-delay that slows the propagation of content edits.

With such a "time-delay" system, edits to "Higly accepted" page sections could potentially be delayed for days, while edits to sections with a current "low acceptance" may not even be delayed at all. A good way to take advantage of this delay-time would be to allow opponents of the proposed content a one-time ability to further delay the propagation of content changes from an editor on that section. This extra time would ideally be used to resolve content disputes, instead of the current system whereby (in many cases) edit-warring is implicitly relied upon. During this resolution time, the editor of the delayed material would be able to alter his proposed changes .. if acceptable to the opposition, then the extended delay could be released. The ability to release a time-delay could be used as further leverage in gaining consensus with the editor whose content is, in some ways, being "held for ransom."

Generally, this should constitute a minimal impact to the editing process, in most common circumstances. However, this system could create a practical problem in the case of moderately "low acceptance" section edits. If a "dispute delay" is imposed on such a section, then it would lead to an extended edit-conflict situation. In allowing the time for dispute resolution, a section would effectively be locked from further edits; for any reasonable allotment of time for dispute resolution this would consitute an intolerable lock time. Likely no clean solution would exist for this problem, but there are 2 saving graces: 1) page sections with *very* low acceptance would not even have this delay anyways, 2) the lock would only apply to a single section of a page, leaving the remainder of the page free. There are some options to mitigate this problem that I could detail, if needed.

One other use of the "acceptance" metric is that article sections could be tagged or even filtered by a user-preferred level of acceptance.

None of this specifically addresses the utilization of our Misplaced Pages subject experts, but for that I would suggest this simple change ... just allow editors the ability to have watch lists of article sections instead of just entire articles. Due to a new focus on article sections, this would allow experts to focus their efforts on particularly contentious material, or retain peace of mind that agreeable material still exists in the article (even if quality has degraded in other parts of the article). It would also be trivial to place some special designator on the watchlist when a proposed edit has been "dispute delayed," which could draw in more opinions and consensus to a discussion before the edit is even finalized.

Anyways, this is a rough outline. I run my own online community, but I'm still fairly new here, so take this with a grain of salt.

tl;dr ... let's acknowledge that some content deserves some special consideration in regard to preservation, and also make publicly-viewable edits a slower process when affecting long-standing subject material so that talk page discussion can pursued proactively. BigK HeX (talk) 06:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

this will work just as effectively to hamper good edits to bad articles that are accepted by a small group of tendentious editors, as it will in keeping good article good. DGG (talk) 14:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It tends to rely on the assumption that bad edits are caught fairly quickly (and thus would have a low "acceptance rating" and subsequently would not be subject to the time-dalays ... in other words, it'd work just like editing does today). If bad information is long-standing in an article though, then that could indeed pose a problem for good edits. Are there many such cases where (A) there is long-standing "bad info", and (B) it still has a core of tendentious support? BigK HeX (talk) 15:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The fuse is lit

Well, it seems to me that rather than helping to defuse the situation, all the article probation has done is to light the fuse on the inevitable catastrophe. Of course, I could be wrong here, but it seems like the controversy is just getting more and more widespread. Admins are hinting towards sides right now, and it won't be long until the battle just steps up a level.

With that in mind, I think this may be a good time for us to take our leave. The situation can't explode if one side simply gets up and leaves (at least in the same way). They prefer civil to incivil ? Well, let them have it and see where it gets them. --Infophile 18:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems at the moment that your withdrawal has only made room for others with your POV, and not civil, either. If you are going to make this experiment work, you'll have to convince everyone. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Well at the very minimum, one can save one's own butt.--Filll (talk) 00:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Well yes -heh- I know what you mean. Still, it isn't much of an experiment if it keeps going as it is now. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. It shows that admins are, in spite of the claims of wikilove, willing to kick butt when people start spewing nonsense. And I can hear the screaming from here. Plus see the lies and misrepresentations. But at least I am not involved.--Filll (talk) 00:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Heh. Maybe we should refer them to this page. In any case, I'm going to stay out of that quagmire and just watch as things (d)evolve. With the probation, my occasional sarcasm when encountering a lame point I've heard repeated dozens of times is bound to get me in trouble (again). They can't punish for inaction. --Infophile 01:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. The whole episode may turn out much better than I expected. Too bad we need a train wreck for people to sit up and take notice. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I predict that this will evolve into something newsworthy. I also predict that the evolution of phenomenon will be talked about in posterity. It's very interesting to watch. Tparameter (talk) 06:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd say "newsworthy" and "posterity" are overdoing it, but yes, it's interesting to watch. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Prophecy

As predicted here, a boycott is not appropriate if for no other reason than that it can be too easily foiled. I've quit editing that article for the sake of my own sanity, and if you want to do so for the same reason that's fine, but let's not pretend that a boycott will accomplish anything else. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I personally have no reason to believe that without your editing the article can be made NPOV. As you say, thee is homeopathic POV pushing. But I'd like to see what would happen. Instead, we are still saddled with POV pushers from the other side. So, the experiment has not been tried. Too bad. I wasn't really trying to foil your attempt, but to promote. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I have no doubt that your intentions were all the best and that you would never try to obstruct science-oriented editors. After all, you've certainly never done such a thing in the past and have always adhered meticulously to good faith. We certainly disagree on substance but you've always been above board in your intent. Raymond Arritt (talk) 07:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It would be a win-win in either case: Either the fringers become constructive or you've proven your point. (No, I don't support a boycott either, mind you.) ~ UBeR (talk) 08:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, with the first outcome obviously being preferable. Raymond Arritt (talk) 11:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Arritt, for the above. I don't, usually, recall disagreeing on content with you at least. Almost always, my objections to other science oriented editors is over tone. There is also the matter of WEIGHT, where some editors feel that the mainstream of science (rather than the mainstream) should have more weight/space than the subjects in articles on fringe subjects. But that has not been nearly as much of a problem as matters of tone and wording which isn't neutral. I would say more, but DGG has already made my points for me, here and elsewhere. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I have seen some POV pushers become reasonable and productive. Unfortunately this is quite rare. I think while the "ban hammer" is flying, one has to be exceptionally careful, and this if nothing else is a good reason to stay away from those pages.--Filll (talk) 14:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, more evidence usually resolves differences of interpretation. It's best to keep the temperature of the debate down until this point. One reason these discussions can drag on is that few people produce new references, either internally or externally. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

That's certainly true when reasonable people involved, but let's face it: We have unreasonable people on both sides of this particular debate. Evidence is just going to make them angry to be proven wrong. --Infophile 17:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, but after a few good nights of sleep, they will leave to pick a fight they can win. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Question?

From what I understand, this is a discussion on giving some sort of an increased power or weighting to editors who are experts in an area? Giving increased powers to any one group of people defeats the entire purpose of wikipedia, the socialist encyclopedia that anyone can edit, admins aside who attempt to keep to administrative duties only. This isn't citizendium, the reason wikipedia is so popular is that anyone can edit it, unfortunately experts must accept this but not let it get to them. If it gets to them to the point where they can't handle it, unfortunately wikipedia and the way it was designed to function/functions, then this place is not for them. If my interpretation of this issue is incorrect please advise. Timeshift (talk) 08:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Socialist encyclopedia? Tparameter (talk) 11:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyone in the world is able to edit, there is no class system on wikipedia. Everyone is the same. Giving increased editing powers to experts moves away from this. Timeshift (talk) 11:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Timeshift, you say "If my interpretation of this issue is incorrect please advise." OK. I'll do that. You mistake a method for a goal, a path for a destination, a means for an end. "Anyone can edit" is a means. "Encyclopedia" is the end result we are aiming at. To the extent that "anyone can edit" gets in the way of that goal, we adjust that means. You'll note that we block and ban people so "anyone" can not edit after all. To the extent that a means like empowering experts helps with the goal, we may use that means. See WP:IAR. We make and change and break rules as needed to achieve the end result of the best 💕 we can create. So far, "anyone can edit" is a rule of thumb that has been very helpful toward that end. But we are getting to a point where an official role for experts might prove of value. I favor the idea of a content arbcom where experts from academia could play a part. But we are probably a couple years away from implementing any such thing. WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

So far, "anyone can edit" is a rule of thumb that has been very helpful toward that end. But we are getting to a point where an official role for experts might prove of value. and that's what I disagree with. Quality edits by experts are good to have, but if there is any move toward elevating these experts beyond the rest of the editing community, you create a two-tiered environment. Misplaced Pages gained it's popularity by allowing all to have the same editing rights. Misplaced Pages should stay as is, not move to a psuedo-citizendium. Timeshift (talk) 22:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, TS, I think you got it in one: "If it gets to them to the point where they can't handle it, unfortunately wikipedia and the way it was designed to function/functions, then this place is not for them." Which, is actually what is being discussed (Expert Withdrawl/rebellion/call-it-what-you-will) which for Misplaced Pages, is unfortunate - especially since the withdrawl is principally concerned with science and anti-science articles. Without expert participation in these articles, you end up with Medicine just being a redirect to Homeopathy, proof positive that MMR vaccine causes Autism - heck any vaccine is by the Illuminatii, and AIDS was caused by permissive drug use. There are lots of others, but here in the "socialist paradise", it's a paradise for the moronic uneducated who believe sincerely (but sincerely incorrectly) in these things. Because admins don't wish to be involved (and are prevented by policy) and are too disinterested to be informed, they end up rewarding civility over content. Something as you can appreciate doesn't happen in the real-world (tm) ... although there are admins so divorced from the real-world that they believe it does operate like Misplaced Pages. Shot info (talk) 23:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Your riddles confuse me. Are you saying you think experts should have more editing powers/normal people have less editing powers which creates a two-tiered citizendium environment, or are you saying the status quo should be maintained which is what made wikipedia so popular in the first place? Timeshift (talk) 23:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Read for comprehension rather than asking me when did I stop beating my wife. Shot info (talk) 23:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that constructive answer... Timeshift (talk) 23:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

No, Timeshift9, dude, he did answer your question. Gave a demo. That's the way he thinks things ought to be. Mean for stupid people, that is to say, people he thinks are stupid. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It's true that I did answer the question, however I didn't give TS one of the two answers he would have liked me to supply. Incidently you are mischaracterising my position, which I have articulated quite clearly on this page, and over at AN/I. Shot info (talk) 06:15, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that you don't read for comprehension or that you lack the understanding of the issue(s)? Shot info (talk) 23:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's how I'd sum up the problem succinctly: We have informed admins, but they tend to become involved because of this, and so they get punished if they use their admin powers. So we're left with only uninformed admins being able to exercise real control over the situation, but since they're uninformed, they can only spot surface problems. Tendentious editing, misrepresentation of sources, thick-headedness, arguing for more fringe content, etc. thus don't get pruned out as they should. The solution? We need more respect for expert opinion, and to have people in high places who respect it and have the authority to act on it. Maybe it's as simple as allowing admins to use their powers in cases where they're involved in presenting an expert opinion (possibly requiring them to supply outside credentials to grant them this privilege). --Infophile 23:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Shot info (talk) 23:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

OK,Classify me. Am I an ignorant admin, an informed admin who gets involved and gets banned, or what? DGG (talk) 05:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I like to be naive and think that admins are like speakers of parliaments, who stay out of issues and are there to maintain order. Timeshift (talk) 05:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Your worldview does not reflect reality. I think Infophile's comments exactly nails it. Experts in a topic do tend to become involved - they have an informed opinion, of course. One they are involved, they are not supposed to use their admin powers anymore. This leaves uninformed admins, and the very few who manage to ignore obvious nonsense to maintain the semblance of neutrality. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm fully aware admins who are experts on the subject from time to time become involved. My previous comment, if it wasn't obvious, was tongue in cheek. I think that usually it does actually happen, but it is inevitable that every now and then admins who are experts do become involved. Admins however are chosen for their wikipedia expertise, not their subject expertise. It's coincidental. If experts are given an increased editing power however, is where I disagree per above. Equivalent editing rights must be maintained. When subject matter by non-experts is wrong however, then it can obviously be corrected by experts. It can also be challenged by either side. It is all a process. The process must be accepted by all users, as it has always been. Timeshift (talk) 09:10, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Experts don't need additional power. Misplaced Pages doesn't need new policies. All that's needed is to give the same attention to strong sourcing, undue weight, and so on that we now devote to the most sacred and holy civility, and to stop bending over backward to accommodate tendentious promoters of nonsense. Instead we're letting Misplaced Pages become the premiere no-cost venue for promoting ideas like curing diseases with distilled water and communing with the dead using tape recorders and cures for non-existent illnesses. Science and reality win every time on a level playing field. But we've ended up with something more like this (substitute "Misplaced Pages" for "American news media"). Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

So it's been safe to eat broccoli all along? ~ UBeR (talk) 16:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't really se a problem with the mucoid plaque article. Basically, it just tells you that it's a bunch of BS Nil Einne (talk) 23:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Use of a strike?

I should start off by saying that I only read the first third or so of this discussion. It is long long long, is in need of re-organization and user-friendlifying, and I planned to leave the office two hours ago. So, what I say may already have been said, or other movements may have rendered them irrelevant. That said, here are my thoughts: Say there were a strike. For the editors of the NY Times to pay attention, let alone put the final damages on the front page, it would have to be publicized. This, I imagine, would be something like posting a sign on a warehouse saying "Dear grafitists : The police will not patrol this area from until ." The police, there, would not come back to a brick wall covered in spray paint. They'd come back to a battered wall, deep piles of broken glass, litter, etc. For an expert WP editors strike (like any other strike) to be effective, it would have to be generally supported. I would suspect that many of the editors who keep WP in line generally (watching grammar, vandalism, etc) are also experts in something. So a strike of the experts would mean a strike of the watchdogs. The damage at the end of a month would be impermanent: there are the storage servers, and the History lists. But restoring order would not be a simple thing, by any means. Someone would have to go through and sort out of month's worth of "good" edits from "bad" edits, and those editors whose edits of that month were reverted would fight back, and WP might not recover. (Of course, maybe the expert/watchdog overlap isn't that big, but I can't think of any feasible way to find out ahead of time.)

And so on. But (and I for one haven't had any G&Ts) there was some thing I was going to address. But what? It will come to me.

In the meantime: I would definitely support a NPOV policy that lets WP say "The earth is round, and I'm afraid that's all there is to it." But that belongs on the NPOV talk page.

Oh yes: Showing that significant damage was done to the quality of WP by a withdraw of experts would be a major research project. If someone here is looking for a —what? systems modelling in science, technology, and society, following dynamic databases in changing environments?— dissertation topic then a strike might be worthwhile (if we assume I'm wrong, in the previous paragraph, to picture WP as barely being kept afloat by, e.g. editors who happen to stumble on a page up for deletion just in time to contest an automated process (not that I did a bunch of that today…) (looking into that would make for a great dissertation too)). We'd need

• an accepted working definition of expertise as it applies to WP
• a list of all those editors who went on strike, and knowledge of their qualifications (to know what definition of expert was reflected by the expert strike)
• a catalog of all the edits made in the time of no experts
• a classification of the edits (in a month that's what, a few hundred thousand?):

do they fit what an expert would have said or not?

If they do, was it by design or accident or as an artifact (of an edit war, or two editors who always contradict each other, etc).

• knowledge of the qualifications of the people who made the edits:

Are they experts who didn't get the message? Do they meet our agreed-on definition of expert but consider themselves amateurs?

Then we'd to analyze how quality of WP changed during the strike on measures of NPOV and ….; how did the strike affect the population of active editors; whether we can attribute the one to the other. Maybe someone knows how to do that, but the chances that they'll become part of this discussion without it being publicized are mighty slim. And again, with publicity would come that school of editors (maybe even hackers) excited by the idea of messin' with a big project.

For these reasons, I side with an early comment and argue for the opposite approach: fight non-expert edits with expert edits.

As for where the expert voice would go: my impression is that the internet paradigm is that each field can only have one Champ. In terms of consolidation and inter-user reliability, this is of one the great boons of the internet age. But another aspect introduces some problems. That aspect is the non-admittance of generics. Once someone has carved out their spot as The Prototype/The Best the competition becomes —for whatever host of reasons— insignificant. To use an awful it's-really-time-to-get-dinner metaphor: In terms of Citizendium or future similar projects, I think WP's already gone into the throne room and locked the door. I mean, people are calling WP "Wiki." If the goal is (and I hope it is) to disseminate NPOV/expert/etc knowledge broadly, and now, it must be done on WP. Experts' withdrawing from WP would not precipitate a crisis. Wikignomes and procrastinators, and the policies already in place, would keep WP generally stable (even if it took an initial (e.g. one-month) hit), and so new generations of experts will keep coming to WP. There'd be a dangerous period when either the newbies would rise quick enough to carry WP on, or controversial info would be entered to quickly for editors to keep it clean. In the former case the WP article on the valiant "Experts of '08" would be deemed non-notable. In the latter case, WP would plateau and, as it became more out of date, people would stop using it. That would definitely precipitate a crisis, but with the whole wiki-reference enterprise associated with WP I bet this would be as damaging to Citizendium et al. as it would be to WP.

Good lord. Did I really write all that? Is it really that late? If anyone wants to read the articles (journal, not WP) I was supposed to be reading and take notes on them for me, hit my talk page :p — eitch 00:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Quotable Quotes

With the witchhunt that started all this, ArbCom member Paul August says "One good editor lost does far more harm to the project than dozens of disruptive editors not blocked at the first possible moment." I gather than this is said without a shred of irony given ArbCom's rampant persecution of VU. Shot info (talk) 05:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Er, I think the quote you're looking for is here. Anyways, I think part of the problem here is that they don't consider the impact on someone who they already know is a good editor. When you're pushing away a known good editor in favor of potential good editors, you've got a problem. --Infophile 18:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

That is the problem. Arbcomm in this instance is viewing Matthew Hoffman as the good editor lost, not the disruptive editor not blocked. Now since I was the editor dealing with Matthew Hoffman, from my perspective, Matthew Hoffman was nothing but disruptive and contributed nothing to Misplaced Pages, and is unlikely to ever contribute anything to Misplaced Pages.

Matthew Hoffman was just one of an endless line of similar trolls who wanted to push his religious agenda; that is, that intelligent design should be promoted here on Misplaced Pages as the most brilliant scientific advance of the 20th century, proving that Charles Darwin was Satan himself. When we wanted to "make necessary assumptions" that intelligent design is part of creationism (and we have 5 or 10 reliable sources that say it is, including creationist sources), Matthew Hoffman threw a tantrum. When we suggested to Matthew Hoffman that the references at the intelligent design article should be sufficient, Matthew Hoffman threw a tantrum. He was obnxious, and pushy and nasty and threatening.

Matthew Hoffman was unblocked, and where has he contributed? Not one bit since he was unblocked months ago. Now granted, he is probably operating here as a sock puppet, but still...

It is ludicrous to hound VU out of here in the desperate hope that Matthew Hoffman would produce something. I would dearly love to make some of these wikilove advocates responsible for these trolls, and if they do not produce, then stick it to the wikilove advocates who are more in favor of volunteering someone else's time to deal with these POVandals than doing anything about it, in the frantic hope that one of these POVandals will actually have a conversion experience and become productive.

I notice that almost none of these POV pushers actually are interested in creating anything. They are mainly interested in disruption, as near as I can tell.--Filll (talk) 18:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Moving away from the specifics of VU and Matthew Hoffman to the general issues raised by the case, I agree that setting up a dichotomy between "potentially good users lost" and "disruptive editors not blocked" is incorrect or at least highly oversimplified. When a truly disruptive editor is not dealt with and is allowed to go on and on and on, then potentially good users are driven away. These are tightly interwoven issues, not diametrically opposed poles. The idea that disruptive users are harmless annoyances who can be left to their own devices until an ironclad legal case develops is deeply flawed. The number one reason that we lose good editors is that they get tired of the endless enabling of disruptive users, which makes everything a needless struggle. Without commenting on Matthew Hoffman or VU specifically, if the outcome of this case is that disruptive users are given even more leeway because of a fear of losing a potentially productive editor, then I can almost guarantee that this will backfire and drive away more good contributors than it preserves. MastCell  20:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Scientific... point of view?

I got into a bit of a discussion about what's going on at Misplaced Pages offsite and made a post which details another problem around here which I think is part of the core problem. It might be hard, but I think it might be possible for us to actually make some headway on this issue if we push. Quoting straight from the post I made:

What I really hate over there is how the consensus among many casual editors seems to be that science is a point of view (”SPOV”), and as such, we have to appropriately balance it with other points of view to make articles Neutral Point of View (”NPOV”). They completely miss the point that science is a method, not a conclusion, and on top of that, it’s simply one of the best methods we have for gathering data. But it gets treated like a viewpoint over there, so it has to be balanced against pseudoscientific views. Now, there are clauses about not fringe giving views undue weight, but this doesn’t help much when there’s a ton of horrible research being done on a subject (as with Homeopathy and Chiropractic). It looks to the casual observer like there’s a lot of weight to the credulous views, because they can’t determine the quality of the research. Even second-order research, such as meta-analyses, is flooded with poor-quality reviews which again, make it look like the credulous viewpoint is more credible than it actually is.

So, what I think we need to push for is acceptance that science isn't a point of view. Rather, it's a means of determining reality, and scientific sources should be considered among the best reliable sources. We should also raise points about how it's best to judge the quality of a scientific paper - journal it's published in, citations, etc. - so that non-experts can check to see whether a certain paper is good or not. When it comes to sources, we want quality, not quantity. --Infophile 19:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Those things are already codified in our existing policies. Good scientific sources are highly prized per WP:V; people should not be quoting individual studies out of the context of expert opinion per WP:NOR and WP:WEIGHT; and ArbCom has affirmed that Misplaced Pages's goal is to become a highly respected reference work providing views of scientific topics in line with mainstream scientific thought. But I think you're right on the money - fetishizing science makes it too easy to paint the "SPOV" as a POV to be balanced with others. Science is a method, not a POV, as you said. It's very useful for describing physical, chemical, and medical facts; not so useful, perhaps, for discussing Kant or the causes of the Thirty Years' War. I agree that we should move away from the idea of "SPOV" as a subset or superset of NPOV, and emphasize the issue of good sourcing. On topics which are, or claim to be, scientific, good sources will largely be scientific ones, or at least high-quality coverage of science in the media. MastCell  19:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I tried to get people to base the tone and content of the Homeopathy article on the AMA, NIH, and American Chemical Society (I think it was, something like that last- anyway, the most mainstream sources avaliable). No go. Attacked the sources as POV. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I realize that the rules actually support a lot of what we're trying to accomplish here, the problem isn't with them. It's with the people who are supposed to be enforcing them. Perhaps they don't properly understand this. In any case, I think it might be a good idea to make it clear in some essay/guideline/policy that science isn't a point of view. This, more than anything, should help us stop people from trying to balance their own, anti-reality positions against science in articles. --Infophile 20:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd not not heard of this SPOV before now, but I agree that where it exists, then it displays a very deep misunderstanding of what science is actually about. As it happens I think that the scientific method probably could be applied to the causes of the Thirty Years' War, but that's another story.

Perhaps the general problem is that not every question that can be asked - Is there life after death? - either necessarily makes sense or is amenable to any kind of a plausible resolution. Just because we can put the words together to ask such questions gives them no more worth than asking "Is all blue poetry really hilly?". But I digress :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Colorless green ideas sleep furiously. ;) As for questions that make more sense, best test to see if they're scientific is falsifiability. --Infophile 22:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Chomsky got it right, and I agree with what you're saying. But you've mentioned what people outside of the scientific world find difficult to understand. They want answers to questions like "Is there life after death?" The words seem to make sense to them, but the concept of life after death is both illogical and untestable. All compounded because scientists largely ignore controversial areas of research for reasons that are all too apparent. I'm thinking of Rhine's experiments in parapsychology for instance, and all of the hoo-hah over homeopathy. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

In the context of Misplaced Pages, SPOV is not a negative, because what we "mean" is that the weight of scientific understanding is thus and such. The best part of science is that it is revolutionary and evolutionary (not speaking politically or biologically, respectively). For example, the Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event was first unknown, then it was a giant asteroid uncovered through the study of the geology of the event, now there is discussion about something else causing it--probably it will be a combination of numerous factors. The problem with the anti-SPOV is that it does not give any credence the possibility that it could be wrong. This culture of anti-science that pervades Misplaced Pages is troubling. OrangeMarlin 22:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, the problem with the pro-SPOV is that it does not give any credence the possibility that it could be wrong. Anthon01 (talk) 23:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you are describing the ASPOV more accurately. The one that wishes to have all the information, regardless of how minor or discredited, added. Remember, "science" is self correcting. Prove it wrong, and then, all of a sudden "science" is right again. By definition "science" can never be wrong, because when you do prove it wrong, that becomes the accepted paradigm and hey presto "science" is right ... again. Unfortunately AS is almost always wrong, because when it is proven correct, it is gobbled up by the SPOV. Ain't science grand :-) Shot info (talk) 23:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Yea. Science was right when it decided that Semmelweis was wrong. And then it remained right when it proclaimed him right. NPOV requires a narrative that reflects the evolution and revolutions that occur in science. Anthon01 (talk) 00:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It's quite possible that I'm being a little bit dense, but my understanding is that science is never "right" or "wrong", it's simply a method that takes us closer to the "truth". --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but some editors use science as it where truth as in X is not plausible. Anthon01 (talk) 00:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

← Anthon1 making a very common mistake about NPOV. It requires that we describe evolutions in science after they happen. A lot of people seem to want Misplaced Pages to describe things that are just about to happen in science, or right around the corner, or beyond the cutting edge. And they invariably bring up things like Galileo and Semmelweiss. If Misplaced Pages were around when Semmelweiss was first mentioning handwashing, then it would quite properly have regarded it as a fringe view. After handwashing became accepted by experts in the field, Misplaced Pages would be updated to reflect that. Misplaced Pages is not the place to bring more attention or credibility to a fringe or protoscientific idea. If that idea becomes mainstream, then Misplaced Pages will reflect it, but it should never try to anticipate that an idea will be proven right or wrong in the future. Because for every Semmelweiss, there are 5,000 Lysenkos and Lamarcks - and that's a conservative estimate. MastCell  00:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You know the joke about "if you're on the cutting edge, you're on the wrong side of the knife." That applies in science (the quacks are always claiming to be on the cutting edge) and to editing here. We only deal in well-used knives here, not in OR....;-) -- Fyslee / talk 06:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I am suggesting that No plausible explantion exists... is better that X is not plausible and would resolve at least some of the endless circular debates that transpire on WP. I am suggesting this as a partial solution to so much time wasted. No plausible explantion exists... leaves room for both evolution and revolution. Anthon01 (talk) 00:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a purely semantic distinction, since anyone who understands the concept of plausibility also understands that it's based on our current state of understanding. As we learn more, our concept of what's "plausible" and what's not changes. That is equally evident from both sentence structures. MastCell  00:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Eh? Semantic = meaning, why is the meaning of words unimportant? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree. Not with your distinction, but in the practical use of the distinction I am making. X is not plausible requires the reader understand the concept of plausibility. To you or I it may be just semantics but not to the average reader and not to many editors on wikipedia. If its just semantics then let agree to use No plausible explantion exists... Anthon01 (talk) 00:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The great thing about science is that it does change, ideas change, everything. No real scientist rejects the possibility that they may be wrong on something. The problem with anti-science people is that they either A) reject the possibility that they are wrong, and B) they always misinterpret science, especially the fact that science is not a fact, is not black and white, and tests theories. But what scientists do reject is non-science presented as science, without testing. So yes, every scientist rejects Homeopathy as not possible, because most scientific tests of the theory have failed. And searching for the one out of million cases where science was wrong is fun, but in today's world rare. OrangeMarlin 00:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

There comes a time where the plausibility in No plausible explantion exists... approaches zero and becomes No explantion exists... and the "science" is exposed as what it is...belief masked as science. As we all know what that is... Shot info (talk) 01:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

(Hush now.... can't use the p-word or you'll get arbcommed.) The plausibility argument is a riff on the classic "because we don't know everything, we don't know anything" gambit. Yes, scientific knowledge evolves by its very nature. But it doesn't follow that we must leave open the possibility that the moon is made of green cheese, or that dogs operated a ham radio network in Atlantis, or whatever else is in the latest issue of Weekly Woo-Woo. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

there is an incredible difference between Lysenko and Lamarck, and pairing them together as incorrect science is altogether ahistorical. Lysenko was an example of ignorant attempts at science being taken seriously for purely political reasons, and used to promulgate ignorance and repress knowledge. It was known to be wrong from day 1, and never had a basis in either theory or experiment. Its pretty much in the same category as orgone boxes. Lamarck was a major serious scientist, a great systematic biologist, author of the encyclopedic treatise for his generation, doing the best to try to form a coherent theory out of unsystematic observations. it contradicted no known theory, and was not opposed by any experimental evidence. As experimental biology accumulated it was gradually seen as inadequate, but was not really replaced until there became both a more comprehensive theory of biological change, and finally a structural basis for it. If anything, it resembles homeopathy, which was not necessarily more absurd than other theories of medicine at the time it was invented--the difference being that nobody is going around trying to propagate the now disproven ideas of Lamarckian evolution. This is a talk page, and this is my POV, and I freely use the word "mistaken". Homeopathy is fringe, larmarckianism is historical, and lysenkoism is falsehood. That's the distinction. DGG (talk) 03:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're correct. Those were poorly chosen examples. I hope that doesn't obscure my point, which was that Misplaced Pages is meant to err on the side of lagging behind the envelope a bit, rather than being a forum to push it. MastCell  06:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem

The problem is that no one is charged with enforcing NPOV. Or rather, we all are. Admins don't have any special claim or role as standard-bearers of NPOV; they just have blunt tools for dealing with behavioral issues. There is no higher body or "content ArbCom" that will bestow victory to the "right" side. For better or worse, it's the community of uninvolved editors who need to be convinced that a given interpretation of NPOV, or a given source, or whatever is the most encyclopedic. Thye will listen to reason, but they will even more rapidly be put off by flagrant incivility or incessant bickering and negativity. Regardless of whether this is the "right" way to build an encyclopedia, it's reality. We (meaning people who would like the encyclopedia to be a useful reference work on scientific topics) need to recognize that the community ultimately upholds WP:NPOV and WP:V, and that in this environment rudeness, pettiness, or incivility can and do outweigh the "rightness" of the underlying argument. Some editors who are interested in emphasizing fringe or unscientific coverage of scientific topics have already recognized this, to their advantage. Admins are not going to suddenly start "enforcing" NPOV by blocking people (which is really the only extra tool they have available); we need to make a better case to the community. MastCell  22:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Because of the poor quality of admins being elected these days, they are enforcing their own POV by blocking. I think the democracy of Misplaced Pages is starting to fail. OrangeMarlin 23:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The children will ultimately succeed in their mission to take wikipedia over IMO, and then you can wave goodbye to any last remnants of democracy. Gang allegiances is what you can look forward to instead. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Heh, according to WR, the "gangs" have been here for a few years. Shot info (talk) 23:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You took the words out my mouth. People have been making those same complaints since long before I started here in mid-2006. In my opinion, the situation in is actually better now than it used to be, in regard to "gangs" of POV-pushers. The maturity and quality of admins are determined at RfA; I would suggest we all be involved there. In any case, until Misplaced Pages's culture changes, we probably ought to try to enjoy the life designed for us by the creator evolve and adapt to it, or go extinct. MastCell  23:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The more editors that get involved in RfA the better, as it seems at present to be a bit of a closely knit club. I'd suggest deciding on a few well-chosen optional questions to ask each candidate and take it from there. Who knows, it may even make a difference. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I can tell you that from the inside, "close-knit" is not the first word that comes to mind regarding the admin community. But yes, go to RfA and ask questions and !vote. Once someone's an admin, there's very little (short of a "test case") that will undo it, so RfA is the place to intervene. Welp-considered questions and rationales for supporting or opposing a candidate can carry a lot of weight. MastCell  00:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem with the RfA is that a bunch of people jump on the supports, and nothing changes. However, I have been involved in (or probably the cause of) the failure of two or three RfA's which were going well over to the support side. In each case, I believe they were POV-warriors who nearly got through. But I don't have time to scan through dozens of diffs, talk pages, etc. to uncover it. The system is a mess. OrangeMarlin 00:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It certainly is a mess, but only because it's asymmetric. Once an admin, always an admin, with very few exceptions. Being an admin is no big deal? Yeah, right. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It's way too big a deal.

As to sources, the problem is that when the most mainstream and authoritative sources do not support the case that the SPOV advocates are trying to make, they are summarily ignored and attacked. If the SPOV people were fair, and actually followed the sources, there would be little problem. Certainly no one would have a problem with me, or call me a POV pusher. It is indeed a matter of following the sources. And though I have seen people not want to follow the tone and content of sources on both sides of debates, I have seen far more of this on the purportedly scientific side. And I'm talking about the best sources here. I've seen Nature ignored and attacked. The AMA. The NIH. I've seen the main scholarly critics of a subject ignored and twisted, when they didn't say things in as derogatory a way as the SPOV people desire. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Just as well this is a nice sweeping generalisation. Otherwise anybody would think that you are describing a majority of SPOV advocates, rather than the one or two you regularly edit war with. Shot info (talk) 02:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

No, meant exactly as stated. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyone can read what you have written, but it is inaccurate as you make a sweeping overgeneralisation, hence my comment :-). Anybody can read the ArbCom and see who the particular SPOV advocate you are overgeneralising about mind you. Shot info (talk) 03:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I can see why you might think that, but I'm not overgeneralizing to that extent (and are you admitting?). Yes, SA is one. But -just as a very small example- see Homeopathy talk page. Users rejected the NIH and AMA and a mainstream pharmacology journal as POV sources. Actually, that is exactly the kind of source we should follow, if possible, both in tone and content. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

see Homeopathy talk page Um, somebody hasn't being reading this page in any great detail. Without diving in that cesspool of woo-promotion, I can speculate on the reasons behind what has been rejected though, mainly because I view it in various other fringe topics - a dodgy XYZ is published in a reputable journal and hey presto, Fringe = Normality. Let's forget everything that still says Fringe = Fringe (you know, things like Physics :-). But anyway, you are still overgeneralising, how do I know this? Because in your example you are only dealing with (and have only dealt with) a minority of those you would identify as "SPOV advocates". Nevertheless for a political public statement, your edit has merit - even though it can be summarised even further as "SPOV advocates are the real villains here" :-) Shot info (talk) 04:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, to answer that I'd have to go into detail. But DGG already said everything I'd say. And no, the sources do not promote fringe. But, FYI, "fringe" does = normality, or mainstream, much of the time. Go figure. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

And there you illustrate precisely the problem we're facing. What's fringe in science isn't fringe among the lay. So which should we do? If we want to be a respectable encyclopedia here, we have to go by the scientific perspective when attempting to discuss matters that can be investigated scientifically. If we went by the popular weighting... well, I'll just let you picture what Evolution would look like. --Infophile 06:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

outdent. It would look like more or less what it does: evolution is a scientific theory. And nearly everything, including life after physical death, the existence of God etc., can be investigated scientifically. The problem is POV pushing: from the fringe, yes, but also from those who incite the fringe by trying to speak of people's false beliefs and fringy ideas in a manner which frankly shoves the scientific POV down their throats rather than simply makes it available. That not only screws the scientific POV by making everyone hate it, it is against current WP policy. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 07:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

"And nearly everything, including life after physical death, the existence of God etc., can be investigated scientifically." You may as well have written in caps and boldface "I have no understanding whatsoever of science or the scientific method." Raymond Arritt (talk) 15:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Backatcha on that one, 135%. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 21:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

And finally, one of the anti-science cabal admits to what I've been saying for years. Creationism=Alternative Medicine. Both require denial of science and scientific methods, but require belief in magic, faith in the supernatural, or just plain ignorance of science. The perfect merger of the two is Lourdes. Drink the water created by a vision of someone who never existed and it will cure you. Oh well, Raymond and I will now be railed against for attacking someone or something. It is so sad that science is under attack. Well, when the Creationist/Alternative Medicine (the real CAM) types need to be treated for an infection or a heart attack, they'll probably come to a real physician, using real scientifically based medicine and be treated and maybe cured. The Creationist will say some supernatural entity got involved (probably an Alien from Alpha Ceti Prime) and the Alternative Quack Believer will think it was his tincture of the Berlin Wall that he got from the same Alien.OrangeMarlin 15:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

There is another distinction, science works with the body of evidence, fringers use evidence that supports their case. Another fundamental difference is that scientists change their models as the body of evidence changes. I have not seen this from fringe groups. Unfortunately such changes in models is often used as evidence that scientists don't have all the answers, as if that was even in doubt. Fringe science often has all the answers and that is the problem. David D. (Talk) 17:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Martinphi, you remember one section ago when I was talking about the phrase "Scientific POV"? If not, you might want to read it. Others: This is what I was talking about. By trying to shoehorn science into being just a POV, people attempt to then argue that it should be balanced against the anti-science POV. Face it, reality has a pro-science bias (or is it the other way around?). --Infophile 19:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You won't find any disagreement from me on these things- except of course the pseudoscientific statement by Arritt. I have no idea what OrangeMarlin might be talking about, but if it makes a difference, I know at least one person he thinks is a "fundamentalist POV pusher" who isn't even Christian. The rest of it might be true for someone or other, I wouldn't know. And I don't see what this has to do with what I said, either. I said, it is bad psychology and against WP rules to shove SPOV down people's throats. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 21:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Alright, that's it. SPOV. There. Feel free to wikilink as necessary whenever someone brings it up. --Infophile 22:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Infophile, very cool. I prefer to use this one WP:SPOV, where the community has had time to give more input. Misplaced Pages:SPOV. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 22:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Infophile, you're my hero!!!!!! And Martinphi, I really don't give a crap one way or another. I don't have an SPOV. But I know who has an anti-science POV (not anti-SPOV, just anti-science). OrangeMarlin 22:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The SPOV (science point of view) is the point of view that the scientific community can be trusted to accurately represent present day understanding of logic and evidence and reality. Other points of view insist that the scientific community is biased in some way so that there is some aspect of reality that the scientific community is wrong about and some other person or community is right about. Personal revelation, subjective truths, revealed religion, secret truths, secret societies, belief in corruption in the scientific community (who pays their salaries?), mysticism, and emotion based certainty all play a part in people deciding to reject some specific scientific consensus and instead believing something else. WAS 4.250 (talk) 18:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Very well put. -- Fyslee / talk 18:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Question

Orangemarlin, Shot Info and David D: how is it, if you're so right and so supportive of science and scientists etc., that you're viewed as "fundamentalists" by members of the scientific community who are not involved in your little religious crusade. Perhaps you should take a moment to consider what these cited comments say about the way you conduct yourself and the views you espouse. You might also care to visit this site to see if any of it rings a bell.AlexanderSaxton (talk) 02:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Welcome aboard. You've displayed quite an impressive mastery of Misplaced Pages formatting and syntax given that this is your very first edit. I wish that all brand-new users were so well prepared. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Also an impressive knowledge of history around here. You must really have done your research before making that post, which is another very impressive trait in a newcomer. --Infophile 01:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The knowledge was channeled, but I believe the point stands and the question really does demand an answer.AlexanderSaxton (talk) 01:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, your answer is that the situation you mentioned has nothing to do with me or Raymond Arritt. Neither of us was involved in that case, so it's a little unfair for you to demand an answer from either of us (as you implicitly do here). --Infophile 01:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Well since nobody was asking you, making a song and dance about exempting yourself from answering is a bit pointless. Perhaps you simply recognised something in my post above that made you think I was addressing you. So, if you did recognise enough of yourself in the behaviour of those named above feel free to respond, if you don't then don't.AlexanderSaxton (talk) 01:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

(undent) No, I simply recognized a suspicious familiarity with Misplaced Pages and the history of this conflict for a supposed newcomer. Makes one wonder, if nothing else... --Infophile 02:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages seem to be the place where the missing fabric of footwear disappears to from the washing machine :-) Shot info (talk) 02:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

heh. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Shot Info: why do you think a group of botanists think you're a "fundamentalist"? AlexanderSaxton (talk) 02:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Davkal, go away. Shot info (talk) 02:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

That's no answer, the botanists who think you're a "fundamentalist" aren't davkal. They're scientists. Supposedly your friends - the people you think and claim you speak for. Why do you think they can't see how right you are.AlexanderSaxton (talk) 02:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:DENY Shot info (talk) 03:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

If you're right, there really should be an easy answer to why a group of botanists think you're a "fundamentalist". They must be mad, cranks, kooks, woo-woos or anti-science POV pushing fringe lunatics or something. Or maybe they're just not as enlightened as you are. Or maybe there's a simpler answer still...AlexanderSaxton (talk) 03:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

You forgot kookasaurasus. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Game over

AlexanderSaxton has been confirmed as a sockpuppet of Davkal. Details here. Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

... and here. He was quacking quite loudly, but of course if I'd blocked the account without jumping through the hoops of fire and standing on my head first, I'd probably have been desysopped by ArbCom as a "test case" - after all, "Alexander Saxton" is the name of a real, semi-notable person... MastCell  22:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

And The Rationalist is a sock of whom? ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

All I can say is BOYAH! Picked that one like a broken nose :-) Davkal, since you seem to enjoy reading this, you gotta change your MO dude :-) Shot info (talk) 02:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

What's the story?

Hello. You see from my user page I just joined, though I have been lurking on this debate for a few months. I hope it is evident which 'side' I am on from my user page. What is the current view of the 'scientists' now? (The debate got so painful I haven't followed it in recent weeks). Best The Rationalist (talk) 10:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

So what do you do with those parts of your life that are not verifiable, yet exist anyway? Anthon01 (talk) 13:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

You don't write an encyclopedia about them. Jefffire (talk) 13:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Although I welcome you response, I think you may have misinterpreted the question, as it relates to a comment on the top of The Rationalist talk page. Anthon01 (talk) 13:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I misinterpreted his statement.The Rationalist: believe nothing that is not based on what is verifiable. I took verifiable to mean science. Anthon01 (talk) 13:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps his talk page is the appropriate forum for your metaphysical conundrum. Jefffire (talk) 13:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

If that were the case I would agree. Anthon01 (talk) 17:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything at the top of his talk page that seems to be relevant to your comment. What is it you're referring to? I'm trying to make heads and tails of this matter. Can you provide a precise quote and location? -- Fyslee / talk 18:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I wrote at the top of my user page, believe nothing that is not based on what is verifiable, and what can be inferred from this. Write an encyclopedia accordingly.

Ah ha! That makes sense. Anthon01 had written "talk" page. The statement at the top of your user page is easily overlooked since it is above the TOC. How about moving it or making a colored block to highlight it? -- Fyslee / talk 21:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Well notice I have just joined. I have no idea how to make a coloured block to highlight the statement. Is it important? The Rationalist (talk) 12:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

So what do you do with those parts of your life that are not verifiable, yet exist anyway? - not believe in them, of course. Which parts of my life did you have in mind? The Rationalist (talk) 14:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I hope I'm not missing the point, but here's at least one way of looking at it. I have previously believed (and thus "experienced") many things which I have later learned were impossible or highly unlikely, given the scientific facts that are related to the subject. As a former practitioner, user, and believer of various alternative medicine methods and ideas, I have later had to reevaluate and repudiate my old interpretations in order to bring them into line with what is actual verifiable reality, rather than persist in retaining a belief in what was obviously anecdotal and belief-inspired interpretations of my experiences at the time. Personal experience (empiricism) can be very deceptive. Since it is very "real" at the time, it's nearly impossible to change one's mind at the time, even in light of scientific evidence that shows the interpretation of the experience to be a self-delusion, often shared by thousands and millions of others who believe the same way based on the same mindset and lack of knowledge of how the world and human body really work. If we don't reevaluate the interpretations of a our previous experiences once in awhile, and recalibrate them in light of currently objectively verifiable and reliable evidence, then we will persist in our delusions and fail to keep up to date. That can have fatal consequences for ourselves and for those we deal with. Sharing such beliefs can delude others. I often wonder how many deaths I am partially responsible for because of my previous sharing of what amounts to home cooked (by the whole alt med world) alternative medicine ideas. Keep in mind that even though empirical evidence has great value at times, it can be extremely deceptive when it stands alone. Therefore, we must continually search for clarity through good research. If it is revealed thereafter that a technique only "works" because of the placebo effect, we must take the consequences and quit using it and advocating it. Anything else would be dishonest and unethical. -- Fyslee / talk 18:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

So what do you do with those parts of your life that are not verifiable, yet exist anyway? - Define "exist" and "verifiable" and "parts of your life". These kinds of philosophical questions are about confused terminology. WAS 4.250 (talk) 18:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

His (or her) question was well-meant. 'Exist' means, whether there is such a thing or not. 'Verifiable' means not just that you think it, or believe it, or even know it, but that there is also some piece of evidence that everyone else can see or be shown. Anthon01's point was perhaps there are events in your life that you believe happened, but which are not verifiable in the sense that you can prove to the world that these things happen. And you believe they happened, nonetheless. Anyway, my question was, what has happened to this debate? I followed the beginning of it, but what has happened? Are the pro-science group leaving Misplaced Pages? Going on strike? Or what? I'm happy to help on science-related articles, and if anything needs defending, happy to defend. The Rationalist (talk) 19:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The simple answer is to reinterpret those experiences. That's the scientific thing to do. We should be prepared to reevaluate our experiences and change our minds. That's the only way to make progress, and which is what happens in science all the time. Just recalibrate your mind. -- Fyslee / talk 21:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

A lot of this philosophy is great. But does it belong on an encyclopedia? If it does, how should it be characterized?--Filll (talk) 00:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed solution: WikiHelpers

Having to deal with issues like cranks and trolls diverts experts' time, and I think the large amount of policy in place to deal with conflicts can make experts feel helpless against Misplaced Pages's "system" (as evidenced by the call for a boycott — my initial reaction was, "why don't you just fix it?!"). Here's a proposed solution to this problem:

Identify experts, and if they want to, assign a "WikiHelper" to them (perhaps after verifying their credentials off-record to avoid diversion of volunteer time). A WikiHelper is like an assistant/clerk/mentor/lawyer to the expert; he or she supports the expert in making substantial contributions and helps keep cranks and other issues off the expert's back.

In particular, this is what a WikiHelper could do:

• Protect the expert's changes, so the expert doesn't have to watch-and-revert.
• Watch articles the expert cares about.
• Deal with trolls/vandals/sociopaths (revert where necessary; report three-revert rule violations, write RCUs to combat sockpuppets, write reports on Administrator intervention against vandalism and Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents).
• Deal with fringe theorists and crackpots (support the expert on talk pages by pointing out policies like NOR to other users; write reports on Fringe theories/Noticeboard and No original research/noticeboard, where necessary).
• Warn the expert of potential trouble and give advice ("article X is a battleground, be sure you know what you're getting into"; "be careful not to revert more than three times"; "finding a source for your claim will end the discussion at X immediately").
• If the expert gets involved in conflict-resolution processes (such as ArbCom), be his/her "lawyer" and deal with the formalities (summarize the case by digging up diffs; if necessary make the case for the for the expert based on Wiki-behavior of other users; propose solutions).
• Polish the expert's contributions in terms of formatting and wiki markup.
• Offer help ("user X seems to be a crackpot; you don't have to discuss with him, I can deal with him").
• Answer questions.

WikiHelpers will need some sensitivity to avoid being the expert's meatpuppet, but I think it's possible to handle this problem appropriately with some good common sense on the WikiHelper's side.

The idea behind this is that there are probably many users like me who don't have a substantial knowledge in any specific area (I'm a college student), but are well-acquainted with Misplaced Pages's policies/processes and are able to handle issues really quickly. For instance, I'd be happy to be the WikiHelper of one or several science experts. Any comments? -- Lea (talk) 00:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouldnt mind having a wikihelper sometimes. It just gets tedious answering the same complaint for the 500th time. I prefer to write new things, not to fight with someone who believes that Misplaced Pages should help promote their weird religious sect, or that it should promote their unproven medical treatment.--Filll (talk) 01:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, first, this is already done to a very large extent. Second, more formalization than already exists falls right into the definition of "meat puppet". Third, people here don't genuinely want mere "experts," only experts who believe what they believe. The problem is that you can get an expert to say just about anything. I recall being told how time travel is pseudoscience, and I said, well, Stephen Hawking doesn't think so, and now I'm just reading in Discover how such speculations are becoming mainstream in peer reviewed journals. Anyway, do you have a suggestion which is within policy, and which doesn't simply turn into a matter of which expert can gather the highest number of meat puppets? ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

"Has a PhD" or "is tenured faculty at a university" could be good "expert" criteria. I think it's important that such credentials are verified (off-the-record), since being WikiHelper for someone who is a fan of crackpot theories or simply not a real expert in their field could do quite a bit of damage. -- Lea (talk) 01:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

So, for example, anyone who said that Remote viewing has so much proof behind it that in any other field besides parapsychology it would be accepted as fact wouldn't qualify? ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

and here we are back in the circle again. personally, I trust the ordinary WPedian to detect nonsense. DGG (talk) 06:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree; I think that ordinary Wikipedians can, and should, fulfill most of these functions as a matter of course (polishing up useful contributions, calling people on OR and POV-pushing, explaining policy to newer users, etc). We could all do better, and we should encourage people who are willing to do these things, because they're important. I'm certainly happy to help in any of these areas, as I think many experienced users and admins are. As far as assigning a "helper" to watch and revert another editor's changes, that's meatpuppetry, and we've already got more than enough of that. The problem with a Ph.D. as credentials is that 90% of the fringe/pseudoscientific nonsense out there is being pushed by people with Ph.D.'s. MastCell  07:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. But go on and take the bait, won't you? ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 07:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

DGG: Experts are not there to detect nonsense (which in many cases normal Wikipedians can do just fine), they're there to make substantial improvements — see WikiDragon. My proposal is to assign helpers to them so they can focus on making substantial contributions rather than fighting with various internet creatures (trolls, ...)

MastCell, Martinphi: I'm assuming that people with PhD's are not likely to push fringe theories. MastCell, can you provide me with references where a PhD pushes fringe theories (verifiable, please, not just some dubious "I have a PhD" claim on the user page)? -- Lea (talk) 07:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

LeaW, a friend of mine (with a PhD in chemistry) is a passionate believer in creationism. In his science field, he is a respected and talented scientist. It just so happens that he is also extremely religious. He once lent me a book (written by two other PhD'd authors) on why science is wrong about creationism. I have absolutely no idea why he couldn't see through some of the utterly absurd arguments advanced, but he couldn't, because of his faith. I wouldn't trust any opinion of his in an area like evolution, but in his specialty I would (and do) accord him the same credit as I would give any expert. To offer a specific example, look up Professor (of Biochemistry) Michael Behe - who has a tenured academic position in biological sciences. His Department has a notice on its website distancing itself from his views, which are in support of Intelligent Design (he's the principal advocate of irreducible complexity): The Faculty "are unequivocal in their support of evolutionary theory, which has its roots in the seminal work of Charles Darwin and has been supported by findings accumulated over 140 years. The sole dissenter from this position, Prof. Michael Behe, is a well-known proponent of 'intelligent design.' While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally, and should not be regarded as scientific." It is unfortunately true that lots of people with PhD's hold questionable views. Most of them do not end up in academic positions, but some do. Jay*Jay (talk) 09:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Ahem. I just joined after watching this show from the sidelines for a few months. I have already offered help to ScienceApologist, and am willing to provide help of the kind suggested here. I don't have any qualifications in science, however do have an extended education on the humanities side. Someone said of humanities education that its sole purpose was to allow its student to detect patent nonsense when he or she saw it. On the PhD thing, more of a failing in 'science' subjects in my view, due to the reason that science education tends to be very narrow, excessively focused on numerical ways of doing things, and not on the skills which a humanities background cultivates (such as using sources correctly, wide 'reading around' a subject, strong general knowlede, literary and presentational skills &c). I've probably offended my entire audience by these remarks, for which apologies - tongue in cheek only. Perfectly willing to help, if anyone points me in the direction of the right articles. That said, I checked through SA's recent edits, and most of his work is on talk pages, not on articles. Edits to articles I checked and all of them are still there. So something is working, surely? Can also someone help me with how I watch an article I want to keep an eye on. Does the system email me? Or do I get a message on my talk page? The Rationalist (talk) 12:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Complaining that science is number oriented is like complaining that humanities is word oriented or that sports is activity oriented. WAS 4.250 (talk) 14:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The Rationalist: To watch a page, click on the tab at the top of the page marked 'watch' - same line as the 'discussion' and 'histoty' tabs, etc. Watching a page will automatically include the related talk page. Now, at the very top of the screen when logged in there are links to your user page, talk page, etc. One of these is to your watchlist, which will show who made the most recent edit to watched pages, plus the edit summary, when it was made, and links.

As for educaiton in humanities v. sciences, I would argue that the purpose of education in any area is to develop your ability to think critically, to analyse, to self-direct future learning, and to present and share knowledge. Acquisition of specialised knowledge is also important, but much less so than the above thinking skills - because someone who is sufficiently self-aware to recognise a knowledge deficit and is able to learn independently can address a knowledge deficit. Like many areas, the sciences used specialised language and have unwritten (but nonetheless fairly strict) standards for acceptance within the community of practice. Communication with non-scientists can be problematic when there are differing expectations - especially when terminology has specialised meaning within the community, but is used more broadly ("theory" is a good example of such a term). Modes of communication amongst scientists can also be mis-interpretted by non-scientists. For example, scientists tend to be quite direct and often brusque, which would not concern another scientist, but can be taken as offensive by someone unfamiliar with the communication norms of the community. I believe this is one reason that WP:CIVIL can lead to problems - ScienceApologist, for example, is sometimes accused of incivility when he is just communicating as if to another scientist.

Many scientists would take issue with some of the 'neglected' areas you have listed - "such as using sources correctly, wide 'reading around' a subject, strong general knowlede, literary and presentational skills &c" - correct use of sources, broad knowledge of an area, and presentation are all strongly emphasised skills, and expected of a science-trained graduate. A good friend of mine (also a scientist) had a humanities academic comment on a general interest article that he had written; the academic said that he "doesn't write like a scientist", with the comment intended as a complement. He responded that he thinks like a scientist, and thus writes like one, but perhaps one who is more broadly literate than is the norm. I suspect you are making a similar comment. For me, the hallmark of a well educated argument (in any field) is a logical flow of ideas, with a balanced consideration of the issues, all connected and building to a conclusion. It is simply that scientists have a tendency to use more specialised materials (be they mathematics, or statistics, or symbology and theory which is poorly understood beyond their domain) in advancing such arguments, making those arguments more opaque to the outsider. Jay*Jay (talk) 15:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the help in setting up. (Btw I'm a little offended by the remark above suggesting that my account was set up by another of the scientists here - as I said, I am not a 'scientist', nor am I related to or know or have had anything to do with any of the characters involved in the debate up until now - perhaps it was my fault for copying some of the stuff from SA's page to my user page, which I only did so as to get up to speed on the current debate). Apologies for offending the scientists here - it was tongue in cheek. That said, my experience of university days was that the people who tended to get involved in fundamentalist sects, weird cults and all that, were almost exclusively mathematicians, physicists and especially engineers. I'd say this guy would be fairly typical. And what about these or these. In my experience, it was the historians, the economists, the lawyers, who tended to be the hard-bitten sceptics. The Rationalist (talk) 15:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

On which subject, I've made a change to the introduction to the Creation science article. Nothing of any scientific impact, merely an improvement to the logic and structure of the opening. The Rationalist (talk) 15:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

To illustrate the problem, it's worth noting that your change survived for 8 minutes. Jay*Jay (talk) 16:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem. Look at the talk page and you see we agree that there is now a change for the better. The Rationalist (talk) 16:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

<undent>Actually in my experience, to state that almost no scientists believe in things like creationism is pretty close to correct. If you look at the general public, about half of the general public in the US subscribe to it. The more a person knows about the subject, however, the less likely they are to express a belief in creationism. So among engineers, it is no longer about 50%, but about 5%. If one moves to biologists, it is no longer 50% or 5%, but about 0.01% or less.

So it is not true that getting a PhD means you are immediately stupid and unskeptical about some of these fruitcake ideas; quite the opposite. However, a belief in such irrational things stands out in such sharp contrast that people notice it when someone with a PhD in science or engineering or mathematics states that creationism is superior to evolution. It is not the PhD that makes them have these stupid ideas, but it is the PhD that makes us notice them.

On remote viewing etc: I do believe that there is a place for describing this material from both a skeptical and a less critical point of view on a Wiki. It just is unreasonable to expect that one Wiki, this one, Misplaced Pages, can be all things to all people. This is clearly impossible. It is not possible to have one article that includes debunking material, and does not include debunking material at the same time. And this does not follow the rules of NPOV.

What happens is that purveyers of "fringe science" want there to be no debunking material in these fringe science articles. It is not possible to be a serious encyclopedia, and to follow NPOV. However, I personally enjoy reading about these fringe science areas from different perspectives. And I think that if we can organize this enterprise in a better way we can all be more effective and productive.

That is why I have suggested things like people trying the Paranormal Wiki (one of the Wikia Projects). It is dying for content. But none of the fringe science people want to consider the Paranormal Wiki, maybe because of the name, or maybe because it is some perceived slight. Maybe it should be called Alternapedia? Or some other name, to make it more palatable?

It is obvious that this Wiki cannot both include skeptical rational material, and not include it, at the same time. People try to redefine NPOV to get away from this. People wikilawyer things to death. Science Apologist is attacked over and over by purveyors of pseudoscience who want to get rid of him. This is a complete waste of time for all concerned. Either we change how we do business here, or we will continue to have trouble, and the trouble might even get worse.--Filll (talk) 16:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

On alleged misuse of account

JJ left a comment on my talk page which deserves a full reply. (He queried a comment of mine on account abuse). 1. Shotinfo said in a reply to a message I left on his page that 'I think those-that-should-know-better-but-don't probably have penciled you in as a sock'. I honestly have no idea what he means here, or who he is talking about. 2. I then noticed a comment by Martinphi asking 'And The Rationalist is a sock of whom?' on this page, which is quite explicit. All I can say is, most of the protagonists on the 'pro science' side seem actually to be scientists, and I'm not a scientist, so why am I being called a 'sock'? I have had nothing to do with this debate so far, except for studying it for a while, and, frankly, I'm still a little mystified about this whole thing. Clearly a lot more has been going on than I have been able to follow from this page alone. The Rationalist (talk) 15:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI, ScienceApologist and Martinphi ended up both being sanctioned by the WP:Arbitration Committee, and there is some degree of tension between them. Earlier today, SA has moved for MP to be blocked for violation of the ArbCom sanctions. We have also just had another ArbCom case end with the departure of a well-regarded editor and sometimes controversial admin who held strongly pro-science views - that editor clashed with several others, including (at various times) Martinphi, Whig, and Abridged. That case has (in the opinion of some of us) sent a strong signal that admins who try to clear up conflict, but in doing so make mistakes, will nonetheless be offered no protection or consideration. This discussion began whilst that case was unresolved, and is an essential part of the background to where we are now. It also explains why some might be suspicious of you being a sock puppet. Jay*Jay (talk) 16:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Who was the 'controversial admin who held strongly pro-science views' - or can't you say? The Rationalist (talk) 16:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The editor in question has now left, and I would prefer to respect his wishes that his name be left off WP. However, if you want to look at the case, go the WP:RfAr and look for the cases (on the right hand side, part way done). There are two recently closed cases: one relating to waterboarding, the other to a user MH who was blocked by the admin in question. If you want the flavour, just look at the proposed decision page and its talk page, and maybe the associated user request for comment (RfC). There was (and is) a lot of consternation about this case. There is even a thread on the talk page of Jimbo Wales about the case, asking about his power to dissolve the entire Arbitration Committee. Jay*Jay (talk) 16:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

<undent>This is exactly the kind of trouble I am discussing above. We will have more and more of this if we cannot organize ourselves better. So I have stated over and over on this page and its talk page that we need to consider other more productive options. I am pleading with people; let's see if we can figure a way out of this mess.--Filll (talk) 17:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

1. ^ Smart People See Ghosts, Brad Steiger, Fate Magazine, April 2006 Issue, p. 52-56; the unusual thing found by Farha and Steward was that belief in the supernatural increased with education level, contrary to many other surveys. However, that aspect of their study is not being used here.
2. Skeptical Inquirer, 30, 1; 37-40
3. USA Today, January 12, 1994
4. Science and Technology: Public Attitudes and Understanding-Public Knowledge About S&T, Chapter 7 of Science and Engineering Indicators 2004, National Science Board, National Science Foundation
5. Cite error: The named reference Hecht was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
6. David Morris: Six in 10 Take Bible Stories Literally. ABC News, telephone poll february 6-10 2004. See also Surveyed Americans Believe in Biblical Truth. CBN News, December 22, 2007.