Misplaced Pages

Talk:Homeopathy/Article probation/Incidents

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Talk:Homeopathy | Article probation

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by QuackGuru (talk | contribs) at 07:05, 18 February 2008 (→Chiropracitc related problems). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 07:05, 18 February 2008 by QuackGuru (talk | contribs) (→Chiropracitc related problems)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

This is a place to discuss incidents.

Discussion

Regardless of the probity of adding an editor, they must be added on notification, and as such I consider Vassyana notified on this page regardless of Jossi's reverts. I also believe that editors must be added to this page when notified, and urge other editors to consider this diff. Unlike other editors, however, I will not edit war here. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

How do we appeal if an admin adds themselves and we believe them not to be sufficiently "uninvolved"? I have the first part of the procedure:
  1. Ask them to remove themselves.
Now that they've refused, what's the next step?
ScienceApologist (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Who cares? So he's on a list - but I doubt any editors on the "Science" side of the debate would go to him for assistance - he's been offered multiple chances to take adminstrative action in that direction and declined to do so. He wants on the list? Fine, let him stay. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't like that he's listed under a list that claims to be "uninvolved admins". Lets say a new editor who teaches introductory chemistry starts editing homeopathy articles and has a problem. They come to this page and see him listed as an uninvolved admin. However, I submit that their interaction with this particular admin is likely to be problematic to the point of alienation if they are not aware that this admin has a history that skews in one particular direction. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Solved. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, much better. Now we have to decide whether or not it makes sense to simply list administrators regardless of their involvement. This could open up a huge can of worms. Still, I will assume good faith and hope that administrators will recuse themselves when appropriate, as they are supposed to do according to WP:Admin. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
That admin should have enough common sense to recuse themselves in the face of so many requests to do so and comments about them not being "uninvolved." Obviously a number of editors consider that admin to be in involved, and that should settle the matter. I certainly consider them to be involved and not impartial. -- Fyslee / talk 02:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Modification proposal to probation

Proposed modification to the probation here. Lawrence § t/e 19:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist

I am posting this information on behalf of an editor who wishes to remain anonymous for fear of embroiling themselves in the homeopathy/pseudoscience conflict. (After checking their contributions to be sure, I can verify they are not involved in this conflict and have not been previously involved in conflict with ScienceApologist so far as I can tell.) This is simply being posted so that other sysops who are more familiar with the situation may review the circumstances. I am refraining from espousing my own opinion, instead simply organizing and presenting the evidence and arguments provided to me privately.

ScienceApologist (talk · contribs) appears to be walking the border of disruption to make a point and using literalist, and potentially out-of-context, interpretations of the rules. There are also some continued edit warring and civility issues.

Jehochman warned ScienceApologist about edit warring on Rue. SA blatantly copy/pasted the notice back to Jehochman. This is a POINT and civility concern because Jehochman was not involved in edit warring on the article. SA reached four reverts on the article. This was reported and contrary to a plain review of the article history and edit summaries judged to not be a 3RR violation as somehow one revert was not a revert, and therefore it was "not a technical violation" of 3RR. (Specifically, the third edit was judged to not be a revert, but it was a partial reversion, which counts towards 3RR.) Levine2112 reverted up to the hard limit of three reverts, continuing and escalating the edit war.

SA has POINTily framed the homeopathy issue of a plant's usage in homeopathic remedies, based on the known fact that homeopathic products are known to contain very little to none of the original production substance (though it is unquestionable that the original substances are used to create homeopathic preparations). To be fair, ScienceApologist has advocated for a centralized discussion of the issue, which may be a productive step. Discussion regarding this issue has also taken place at: Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_6#Deadly_nightshade and Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view#Deadly_nightshade. SA appears to be dishonest in some of his dismissals, for example claiming that only homeopathic references make the claims (which is contrary to the discussions above and others SA has been aware of and/or involved in).

ScienceApologist created WP:PROMINENCE as a redirect to WP:UNDUE based on the phrase "in proportion to the prominence of each" in that section. He appears to be shifting the sands of UNDUE from the exclusion of extreme minority viewpoints to demanding that the claims be prominent. These are distinctly different standards and the latter is at least a step removed from the meaning of the policy (which is simply indicating that things should be presented in proper proportion to their appearance in reliable sources). Creating a redirect to frame an ongoing argument is almost certainly a POINT violation. Furthermore, considering the ongoing and heated nature of this discussion, it is unlikely that SA was not aware that such a move would raise the heat of the conflict. On a related note, ScienceApologist is pushing principles of his own invention as though they were policy and claiming they are rooted in a "careful reading" of the rules.

It looks like SA is extremely dismissive of responses to him, characterizing responses he does not find convincing as essentially a lack of response. He also appears to be exhibiting bad faith assumptions about other editors, contrary to the ArbCom remedy.

This dispute was raised on this noticeboard twice recently (Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Editor disrupting editing with false claims of WP:PROMINENCE and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Clarification of Homeopathy Probation Edit Policy).

Please be aware these are not all relevant diffs, simply a random sampling of the most recent. It would probably be worth reviewing the actions and posts of other editors engaged with ScienceApologist, to take into account any possible baiting and to ensure all parties are treated equitably in this dispute. Thanks for your time and attention to this situation. Vassyana (talk) 19:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


There are a series of shocking misstatements in the above writings. I will attempt to adress as many of them as possible, but I'll start with a standard note - "This is yet another in a series of complaints directed by supporters of pseudoscientific claptrap against SA. Over the past 7 days SA has made a distinct and substantial improvement in his civility, which was the concern expressed (again and again and again and again) by psuedoscientific supporters. It appears now that with his dramatic and continued improvement in civility, said supporters are attempting to find another tune to dance to - in this case it's hard to tell if it's revert warring or just being difficult about sourcing. Whatever, file an RFC for your content disputes like every pro-science editor is told to."
  1. SA was reverse-informing Jerico of the article probation, which is a requirement for probation-related bans. While he could have changed the phrasing of the note, the technical requirement that such note be delivered excuses his copy-pasting of the notice. The warning was not for reverting. A message on a talk page is not disruptive - as such, it cannot violate WP:POINT (state your point, don't prove it).
  2. The third revert was not technicaly or actually a revert. In additon, they were both edit warring, but only one of them was calling non-vandalistic edits vandalism. Calling non-vandalistic edits vandalism is an attempt to anger editors by stating their motive is to disrupt the encyclopedia. This a not a possible violation of civility, it is a directly stated violation of it.
  3. Calling SA "dishonest in some of his dismissals" is a violation of good faith. There is the possiblity that there is a failure to communicate, or that he is ignoring what his opposition, who are frequently complaining about him through the various adminstrative pages. Dishonesty requires intent.
  4. SA's stating that his understanding of policy is careful is perfectly appropriate. If his opponents do not like his understanding, they can file content RFCs to get further input from uninvolved experienced editors.
  5. WP:POINT requres disruption. Redirects, in addition to being cheap, are not disruptive.
  6. SA has asked numerous times for his opponents to state clearly and sucinctly that the sources they provide demonstrate the prominence of homeopathy to the plant - they do not do this. He is dismissive of their further evidence that the plant is used by a homeopath, because they aren't willing to show the prominence of homeopathy to the plant.
  7. Finally, SA is not creating disruptive sockpuppets to harass his opponents, he is not soliciting editors from outside of wikipedia to come to his aid and he has improved dramatically on his civility. His opponents have not taken any substantial steps to improve their behavior. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't like the fact that this discussion was closed on WP:ANI and then posted to a much less visible page. I don't think any action against SA is justified at this time. I dropped in on Talk:Deadly nightshade last night and I think that what SA is saying about sourcing is sensible. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

People at ANI asked us to "take it outside" because they were getting sick of all the bickering. Anything here that results in a sanction can be appealed to WP:AN. ScienceApologist has been edit warring and disrupting this attempt at resolution. If you could speak with them about better ways to address their concerns, that would be a good thing™. Jehochman 20:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
There's an obvious difference between a sanction applied after a discussion at a high-traffic page like WP:ANI and one applied after discussion on a page that few people are watching. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
True, but any uninvolved administrator can apply a sanction with no discussion whatsoever. Talking here is not as good as ANI, but better than not talking at all. I suggest we attempt to resolve problems here first, then go to ANI if more opinions are needed. Jehochman 21:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Do I get to know the identity of my accuser? Should I refute every diff's characterization point-by-point? What would the people here have me do? ScienceApologist (talk) 20:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anything will be applied at this time, since there is no consensus, so I don't think you need to do anything. Jehochman 21:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay. Thanks for the concise response. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Note on admins and probation

Admins who edit these articles, especially those who worked on them prior to the probation, are not exempt from probation. All users are bound, including admins. Lawrence § t/e 22:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Jossi is an involved editor, not to be listed as uninvolved admin

Per:

Lawrence § t/e 22:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Trying to argue that someone is involved or not involved is a fools game. Let's just have a list of admins willing to use buttons or mediate. If it turns out an involved admin uses buttons, we'll escalate at that time. No use fighting over it now. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
It strikes me as a bit bizarre that this is a point of contention. Not being listed as willing to mediate or provide enforcement doesn't exclude one from actually doing so. east.718 at 22:44, February 1, 2008
A variety of users in several pages asked Jossi to recuse, as an involved editor. It would be out of bounds for Jossi to provide enforcement on issues in this case, as an involved party using the tools. Anyone can mediate anything, of course. Lawrence § t/e 22:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
This section has resolved itself. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
This probation is becoming a joke, I have advised User_talk:Jehochman#Please_keep_an_eye. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
And just note that I get informed of any disruption on these pages, regardless of this probation, and regardless of who the editor involved is, I intend to use my admin privileges if I see it necessary. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

protected admins page

Good idea. One note, however - put the section header (==Admins==) on the protected page so that admins clicking "edit" by the section go to the right part, similar to RFA. PouponOnToast (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 Done. east.718 at 00:25, February 2, 2008

editor used this probation as leverage in a content dispute

An editor is edit warning me in a content dispute. This probation may have unintended consquences. Quack Guru 00:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic is on article probation for everybody, so it doesn't give anyone an advantage. The mention of probation wasn't even directed at you, it was a general statement. east.718 at 00:25, February 2, 2008
It was directed directly at me. Hyperbole wrote: And if you remove the material, considering that this article is on probation, I suspect the admins will take a very dim view of that. It was disruptive and smacks WP:POINT. Quack Guru 00:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry, this user is also aware of probation and so has the eye of justice cast upon her/him as well. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
No, that's commenting on the state of the article. An example of commenting on you would be specially pleading to admins by saying "look, he's on probation, he must be disruptive!" east.718 at 00:42, February 2, 2008

Disruption

PouponOnToast (talk · contribs) - Creates this Misplaced Pages:DELETEHOMEOPATHY page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd say he's trying to make a WP:POINT, except that I have no idea what point he's trying to make. Is he suggesting that some Misplaced Pages editors are trying to delete homeopathy (whatever that means) because someone once told them not to?? --Hyperbole (talk) 05:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
It's a joke - see Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2008_February_1#Misplaced Pages:PROMINENCE_.E2.86.92_Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view.23Undue_weight. Geez. PouponOnToast (talk) 08:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I think an admin is trying really hard to be offended as can be seen here. Shot info (talk) 09:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Orangemarlin

I'd like someone to please take a look at this. —Whig (talk) 19:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Orangemarlin claimed you made a personal attack on him at his talk page; I see that all you added to his talk page was a notification of this probation. That is obviously not a personal attack. Don't worry: Orangemarlin's "final warning" is completely toothless, as he is not an administrator and cannot block you. --Hyperbole (talk) 19:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong from you, Whig - the notice was obviously a mere formality. That templated notice on your talk page isn't cool though. :| east.718 at 21:04, February 2, 2008
If you mean the notice that Orangemarlin placed on my talk page, I deleted it. —Whig (talk) 21:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry for the ambiguity. east.718 at 21:23, February 2, 2008

edit warring at Homeopathy over category

Perhaps I misunderstood the purpose of article probation, but I thought it was supposed to stop edits like: . --Akhilleus (talk) 20:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It sure looks like editwarring by User:Art Carlson, User:Orangemarlin, User:Dicklyon, and User:FCYTravis to me. Dlabtot (talk) 20:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
And now, . I'm starting to regret recusing myself from enforcing the probation. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Yet, I alone have been banned for taking one side of that arguement. For suggesting since there is no consensus lets move on. Since I've left things have only gotten worse. Imagine that. Hummm? The position I have taken has been supported by a number of experience moderate editors. Anthon01 (talk) 20:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Nore ironic is I never touched the article page. Anthon01 (talk) 20:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Concern regarding Felonious Monk--nothing personal

I am respectfully questioning whether or not the admin Felonious Monk should be on the list of blocking admins given his vote to ban User:Whig here and User:Abridged here. A community ban seems like a pretty serious step, and there didn't seem to be any consensus that those bans were justified. Also, some evidence of involvement in the general area of homeopathy based on these edits: , . (I'm not saying I agree with the edits or disagree; they may have been entirely appropriate, I'm just concerned about involvement in the subject area). Abridged 23:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be doing your best to ensure that there are no "uninvolved" admins. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand your comment. I am expressing a concern about an INVOLVED admin. Please AGF. Abridged 13:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Abridged, the combatants will not be allowed to pick the enforcers. If Felonious Monk does something to you then you will be able to appeal the action. Attempting to eliminate his participation because you fear he might do something is not acceptable, and is disruptive. If you continue on this path, you will be topic banned. Jehochman 14:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I thought that admins weren't supposed to enforce in areas they have edited in. I am just raising a concern because FM has edited in this area. I not disrupting, I am looking to clarify the rules. I thought I read above that if anyone had concerns that "enforing" admins were involved, they should civilly express them. I was just doing this. There is no cause for threatening me with a topic ban. Abridged 19:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Polite disruption is still disruptive. Stop now. Thank you. Jehochman 20:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Look, I was not disrupting. I was just doing what is supposted to be allowed. Why are you being so rude? Abridged 20:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Disruption by MartinPhi

I reverted this addition to the talk page by MartinPhi. I'm not sure what this falls under, but surely it falls under something, ie disruption. What has been doing on at Raymond's talk page has been going on in full view of the WP community, so it is not some big secret to anyone who has been editing over the past few days. That being said, the addition had no implications to further the homeopathy article. And he was already notified, prior to this, about the probation of the article. Prior to posting this, he added the passage back. Baegis (talk) 06:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You're looking for WP:TALK--talk page posts are supposed to be for improving an article, rather than general discussion. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, and those bit he inserted didn't help the article at all. Baegis (talk) 07:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
The section was removed as having nothing to do with the article. However, it was a call for NPOV editing, with reference to a page were Homeopathy was being discussed, and actions concerning Homeopathy were being planned. It was also removed as soap boxing. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Disruptions that need attention

I have left messages starting here (in this section), and here. Please do something about these editors. -- Fyslee / talk 07:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

My failure to agree with Fyslee is not a disruption. His threats in my talk page are, however. —Whig (talk) 07:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Your continued stonewalling is disruptive and my explanation of why it is improper is not a threat. AGF. This page is made to be used, and it was you who told me to report this matter. You did it on your talk page. -- Fyslee / talk 08:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I consider this vandalism. —Whig (talk) 08:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
So I guess that I apparently vandalized my own talk page by placing it there and that everyone else who adds the template to talk pages where homeopathy is being discussed is also vandalizing. Interesting.... You need to AGF of me and of the template. It is a notification template that is good to have. -- Fyslee / talk 08:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I am disengaging as Whig is becoming extremely defensive, failing to AGF, and refusing to accept any helpful advice. -- Fyslee / talk 08:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
But you placed it on his page without asking him or telling him. Anthon01 (talk) 08:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. It's possible that the talk page of a participant in the discussion might also be a page subject to review. But I'm forced to admit that placing the notice constitutes "telling him" under Misplaced Pages policies, as you receive notice on edit edits of your talk page. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I think you're confusing two things here. I was notified about the article probation some time ago, and Fyslee was not notifying me. What he did was place the homeopathy-warning template on the top of my talk page so that visitors to my talk page would be warned. What he does to his own talk page is his business. —Whig (talk) 18:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Relax, everybody. Templating somebody's talk page could be viewed as provocation, but not vandalism. I think people can template their own talk page if they desire. Nobody is forced to visit Whig's talk page, so if he wants to make it a battle zone and suffer disruption, that is his business, so long as it is not being used to attack other editors, in which case we have a variety of control measures available. Jehochman 14:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I've slept on it and am relaxed. If I had placed a homeopathy-probation template on the top of Fyslee's talk page, I would have been banned. But since this is a user talk page dispute the Article probation/Incidents page may not be the correct place for this dispute to be. Or perhaps it is, I'm not sure that it matters. —Whig (talk) 18:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Now that I've had time to think about it, the template is normally placed at the top of article talk pages, but placed like ordinary comments on user talk pages. I guess that's what I should have done, just like has happened other places, and what Whig had previously done to me. His edit history shows he has been placing warning templates on several other user's talk pages, even before and after I placed the template on his talk page. I have no particular interest in pursuing that matter. If Since he chooses to continue to ignore the warning in the template by continuing his disruptive stonewalling, as well as advocacy of homeopathy on talk pages several places at Misplaced Pages, then I'll let admins apply the sanctions named in the template. -- Fyslee / talk 04:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm interested in seeing the diffs that support your allegations of 'disruptive stonewalling'. Are your accusations accurate? Dlabtot (talk) 05:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Fyslee has already come to my talk page to apologize, I haven't been placing templates, though I have notified several people of the article probation as required to make it applicable. It shouldn't be necessary that I come here to defend myself again after accepting Fyslee's apology. —Whig (talk) 05:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The apology was only as regards my method of placing the template, as explained above. Your's, Anthon01's, and Martinphi's stonewalling are still a problem. -- Fyslee / talk 06:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
A diff would be helpful. Thanks. Anthon01 (talk) 06:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Here it is. It's similar to what's above. -- Fyslee / talk 15:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time and forgive me for not being clearer. I was asking for a diff illustrating recent stonewalling. Thanks. Anthon01 (talk) 16:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me turn the question around. Please present a selection of diffs from your contribution history that show encyclopedic contributions, as opposed to argumentation (often in the form of politely phrased questions), lawyering over the rules, and lobbying for alt-med causes. You have a very polite tone, but you seem to want to engage people in endless debates (stonewalling) and repeatedly make polite requests for information that is easily found. This all appears to be an effort to advance a content agenda. Jehochman 17:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The agenda is to make alt-med articles balance using V RS. I will give you an example in a moment. First you diffs. You've posted three diffs. The first one is in response to an editor that deleted someone else post on a talk page. As far as I could tell, there was nothing inappropriate in his post, and I ask the editor not to delete the post. The second one is in reference to an redirect for deletion. I answer Lisa's question and asked a question, that once answered, would allow me to cast an informed vote. The third is a direct result of "stonewalling" by the admin, East718 who banned me. I'll post some examples in a moment. Anthon01 (talk) 14:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Rather then give you one diff, I would like to present at once the result of over 100 diffs on an article. What is the best way using WP software to do that? Anthon01 (talk) 14:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Since I haven't gotten a response I will respond it the best way I know how. I hope it suffices. Here is a diff, provided as a starting point and not as an edit example, that shows the Wheatgrass article about the time I got started, October 2007. Please view the whole article below the edit boxes. Compare that to the current wheatgrass article. Almost all the significant diffs are mine, from October on. Keep in mind that I had just started editing wikipedia at that time. The page needs lots more work, but it was a start. I removed the promotional stuff that formerly populated the page, initiated the creation of a disambiguous page, added peer-reviewed references and tables, expanded the history and the intro, and added the pretty picture of wheatgrass in the intro. 1) On the wheatgrass page I have actively removed promo material. 2) Wheatgrass advocates assert that "1 oz wheatgrass juice = the overall nutrient content of 2.2 lb. of fresh vegetables." I am always fascinated by such assertions but view them with a good dose of skepticism. So I searched the FDA nutrient database and discovered that claim wasn't credible. The wheatgrass page now reflects that. BTW, I drink wheatgrass on a regular basis. In spite of that, I followed the sources. I think that's NPOV? As I have been accused of being a "POV pusher," here and elsewhere, I suggested that a I am, or better yet, have become a Neutral "POV pusher." Anthon01 (talk) 16:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm curious as to why this user has been singled out. Presumably he is not arguing against himself. Therefore there must be two sides to this 'endless debate'. You accuse him of trying to advance a content agenda but I don't see how his actions are substantively different from the actions of several editors involved in this fiasco, some of whom are quite explicit in proclaiming that they are trying to do just that. How is 'stonewalling' different from 'continuing to disagree'? Did User:Anthon01 make any disruptive edits? Dlabtot (talk) 17:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no difference. When there is a consensus, or when Misplaced Pages policy is clear, those who continue to disagree|argue|stonewall (choose the word you like) cause harm to the project. Misplaced Pages is not a discussion forum. Misplaced Pages is not an experiment in unlimited free speech. Talk pages are to be used to help improve the articles, and users are expected to work cooperatively. Those who come here to push an agenda are sooner or later asked to leave. Disruptive editors will be removed when they have exhausted the community's patience. This article was put on probation to facilitate those removals. I am waiting, showing patience, and observing which editors are able to act cooperatively, and which are only here to argue. The argumentative ones will be removed eventually. In looking through Anthon01's contributions I see that they are not building an encyclopedia. They are engaging in advocacy. This is an improper use of a Misplaced Pages account, and if it continues, they could be banned for a long time. There is no deadline, however. I am wiling to wait a while to see if things improve. Jehochman 18:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
When there is a consensus, or when Misplaced Pages policy is clear -- which is pretty obviously not the situation here. Dlabtot (talk) 18:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I think consensus does not mean what you think it means. Misplaced Pages is a clueocracy. All opinions do not get equal weight. The single purpose accounts who are here to promote homeopathy, and do so with counter-policy arguments, wiki-lawyering and endless polite questioning, get almost no weight when it comes to assessing consensus. Likewise, the pro-science edit warriors who oppose too strongly, in violation of NPOV, will also have their arguments discounted. Jehochman 18:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Leaving aside the question of whether I am ignorant of the meaning of WP:CONSENSUS - do you believe there is a consensus? What about this RfC? Was a consensus reached there? If so, was it implemented? Or was implementation stonewalled by those who disagreed? Dlabtot (talk) 18:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The use of endless disruption and discussion can stop a consensus from forming, and is a serious form of stonewalling. It behooves editors who find themselves arguing against the good sources used (IOW failing to learn and change their POV) and against policies, to stop the objecting and sometimes simply be silent and allow things to progress forwards. Sometimes the question to be asked is "Why isn't there a consensus?" If it's because of contrarian obstinacy and stonewalling, then the lack of consensus is the fault of those who are stonewalling by their endless advocacy and pushing of minority and alternative agendas. Those POV may be allowed (and may even be required) in articles if properly sourced, but the POV are themselves disruptive because they are often denying reality or are against scientifically validated viewpoints. It is often a form of OR for fringe editors to come here and attempt to argue against the scientific majority POV. Another matter is that continually claiming that "there is no consensus" (as a means of stopping unfavorable edits) and then asking "do you believe there is a consensus?" (when there obviously isn't) is not constructive, but is just more stonewalling and is disruptive.

It is important to distinguish between two things:

  1. Editing an encyclopedia often requires that we use the "writing for the enemy" tactic when including distasteful nonsense that must be included because NPOV requires even nonsensical realities to be documented and included.
  2. Actually believing nonsense is bad enough, but expressing those POV in order to advocate them is not okay. That's not editing, it's preaching and advocacy, and that's disruptive and draws attention away from writing an encyclopedia. If those POV were scientifically documented majority viewpoints it would be perfectly fine to simply assert that reality is reality, which, if done civilly is a legitimate defense against the advocacy of nonsensical POV as if they were reality.

In short, nonsense and fringe viewpoints may need to be included using good sources, but they should not be preached or advocated. Misplaced Pages talk pages are not mission fields for such POV missionaries. Proselytizing isn't allowed here. -- Fyslee / talk 06:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that characterizing disagreement as fringe and nonsense is the problem, rather than neutrally acknowledging the fact that people hold a diversity of viewpoints. It is not required that editors share the same or hold purportedly mainstream views, and it seems that you are engaging in the very behavior you complain about on behalf of your own viewpoint. If the NPOV policy is followed and all significant views are included in the article with verifiable and reliable sources and described neutrally, then battle will presumably come to an end. The fact that some editors want the article to present a particular POV, whether that POV is presented as scientific or mainstream it certainly is not the case that everyone agrees, and homeopathy in particular is very much a part of the mainstream in many countries all over the world, even though it has a number of critics who claim it is pseudoscience. It is not stonewalling for editors like myself (who you have accused above) to decline to change our own POV. You do not have to agree with my POV, and I do not have to agree with yours. —Whig (talk) 18:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

expand area blocks

The warrioring is getting out of control. Can we start issuing topic bans instead of article bans, and have that topic ban include these pages, such as Talk:Homeopathy/Article probation/Incidents and Talk:Homeopathy/Article probation? Please? I see at least one editor here that is banned from Homeopathy but is all over this page, not helping Misplaced Pages. If people are actually here to work on Misplaced Pages, there a million other articles to work on if barred for a week from Homeopathy junk. If they are incapable of working on other topics or areas, perhaps they should be permanently shown the door. Lawrence § t/e 14:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I prefer not to cut people off when it isn't necessary. If anybody needs to be topic banned, please post diffs showing disruption. Jehochman 14:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Get up, get get, get down

major edit without talk page discussion revert revert major edit without talk page discussion revert revert revert revert revert revert. 911 Is a Joke. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Action has been taken. Please do not make inflammatory comments. Jehochman 22:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The article edit warred over was the main article. I noticed the edit war two and a half hours after the war started. The first action taken was 3 hours later. When is it ok to call 911 a joke? PouponOnToast (talk) 22:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
No. Jehochman 22:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Disruption on Talk:Arsenicum album

—Whig (talk) 22:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see anything wrong with trying to get input as to a potential merge target before formally proposing the merge. I proposed the wrong target at metalogic, although it still appears that the present article should be merged, although an article on yet another topic by that name might be appropriate. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This is disruptive, there is no consensus to merge the article anywhere. Arthur Rubin participated in a recent AfD (brought by a since-identified sock of another user) on Arsenicum album, and argued for merging without providing a reason, nor did he respond to a request for clarification. He is seeking to disrupt by any means, per his comment in that AfD: "Do not keep intact." —Whig (talk) 23:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
If one looks at the section, it appears there is merely a difference of opinion, but characterized by Whig exercising extreme bad faith towards Arthur Rubin, including allegations that are personal attacks. Thus his complaint here is actually a form of forum shopping and is very disruptive. His accusation falls on his own head. Arthur's judgment of his attacks as disruption is quite accurate and should have consequences, especially under the reigning conditions of this article probation which he knew existed when he wrote his attacks. -- Fyslee / talk 05:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey Fyslee, take a look at the Outside, uninvolved opinion from User:Keilana. —Whig (talk) 05:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
So Keilana agrees with you. Fine. That's not the point here. I couldn't care less about the subject, just your attitude and comments towards Arthur. You were failing to AGF, which is a policy violation. It's not collaborative and in the situation was disruptive. -- Fyslee / talk 05:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic related problems

civility problems and copyright violations and exposed a person's real name

EBDCM is a newbie but is making uncivil remarks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Chiropractic#copyright_violation http://en.wikipedia.org/Chiropractic#Safety_issues The safety issues section has a text dump of copyrighted information.

Please take a look here. EBDCM has put a link on the talk page claiming he knows who I am and by clicking on the link at the website exposes a real person's name.

This was reported to the noticeborad but no action was taken. Regards, --QuackGuru (talk) 06:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Chiropractic&diff=next&oldid=191113326 After I made a report here the probation tag was removed without any reason. I do not understand why. QuackGuru (talk) 18:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chiropractic&diff=prev&oldid=191813064 Read the edit summary.

I am offended by the edit summary. I want more uninvolved editors and the probation restored. QuackGuru (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Update: EBDCM has apologized and was sorry. QuackGuru (talk) 05:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

insensitive remark

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Chiropractic&diff=prev&oldid=191818149 I hate to do this, but I agree with QG.

This is what happens when the probation tag is lifted. Draw your own conclusions. QuackGuru (talk) 18:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I strongly object to QG misusing my comment above and have edited it accordingly and have strucken out my misused comment above. As to his other complaints, there may well be problems with some edit summaries, but they have nothing to do with homeopathy and should be dealt with using any normal rules that might apply to uncivil edit summaries. -- Fyslee / talk 07:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I hate to do this, but I agree with QG... Read the entire comments. Before and after. What in the world does it mean when Fyslee claims I hate to do this, but I agree with QG... QuackGuru (talk) 23:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Why do you insist on misusing my statement? Don't try to make my statement mean more than was intended. I definitely do not agree with you on many other matters, and you seem to be misusing my statement to make it appear I agree with you on this matter. That's not the case, so please leave me and my statement out of this. Please delete it (the "I hate to do this...." link and statement above) immediately or I'll have to take this up the chain of command and have you dealt with in a more severe manner. -- Fyslee / talk 04:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
This is about Fyslee stated: I hate to this, and then went on to say, but I agree with QG. This was an insensitive comment and very offense to me. The statements by Fyslee makes it clear to me he hates to say he agrees with me when he does agree with me on any matter. That is what it appears to me. Please leave me alone with your incivil remarks. QuackGuru (talk) 05:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I request permission to restore the probation tag. QuackGuru (talk) 05:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that all this time your use of my comment was because you found it offensive? I had no idea! This is a revelation. I had no idea that that was the issue. All my comments above were made under the assumption that you were talking about something else. Sorry about the confusion. It would have helped if you had spelled it out instead of just listing a bunch of links and words from various people without much explanation. (Note that his thread is based on a previous edit that has been moved here and is now out of context.) It looked to me like you were attempting to make my words of support in one limited situation look like words of support for you in all situations, which is not true. As my revision of my comment shows, I thought you were talking about something else.

As to "leave me alone with your remarks", sorry, can't do that. You quote me and apparently are accusing me of something, so I have a right to defend myself. This has nothing to do with homeopathy or the probation. This is apparently about some difference of opinion, and where I actually agreed with you. You cannot force me to agree with you all the time, so just be grateful that I agreed with you that time. If you take offense, that's your problem. -- Fyslee / talk 06:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Major changes to Arsenicum album without discussion but with deceptive edit summaries

Neither this edit nor this edit were discussed on the talk page of the article, contrary to edit summary. Editor making said edits is under an unblock-mentorship agreement, though it appears their mentor has taken a break. The terms of the most recent unblock-mentorship was that the editor "may only make significant changes (anything past typo fixes, spelling corrections, etc.) after you have reached a consensus on the talk page." I am unwilling to deal further with disruptive single purpose editors-for-profit with conflicts of interest, so I leave it to someone else to even engage in discussions regarding this. PouponOnToast (talk) 16:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Information that was not relevant to arsenicum album was removed. Material had previously been added with the intent of "debunking" and discrediting homeopathy in general. That has no place in an article on arsenicum album. Arion 3x3 (talk) 16:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't care if the edit was right or not. It's been made clear that the order is discuss your major edits before making them. I seem to have missed the discussion. PouponOnToast (talk) 16:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
If you don't disagree with the edit, then placing procedural roadblocks is just wasting everyone's time. Obviously a lack of disagreement is consensus. —Whig (talk) 17:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Regardless of my agreement or lack there of, the edit was never discussed. PouponOnToast (talk) 17:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I confirm that there was no discussion. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Given that PouponOnToast has been making bold edits to the same article and citing WP:BRD as justification, it is hard to reconcile with these protestations. —Whig (talk) 17:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not under an unblock-mentorship agreement, nor ar my edit summaries dishonest. PouponOnToast (talk) 17:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
What is the opinion of the mentor on this matter? ScienceApologist (talk) 17:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Lame. That's what this is. Lame and ridiculous. I'm semi-breaking from admin duties (not including mentorship) for a few weeks, I'm not on a wiki-break. If there's nothing wrong with the edits, then sit down. Dana doesn't need to be blocked for making constructive edits. There's been discussion on the talk page, I could go read it, but considering it's been stated that it's not a bad edit, I don't see the point. Come to me when he does something wrong. Until then, we've all got more important things to deal with. Lara❤Love 18:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Uh, it's a terrible edit - basically removing an just one side of the "dispute" over the effectiveness of the substance. It was definitively something wrong. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

(note - links corrected) PouponOnToast (talk) 18:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you and Dana read the same essay. So just discuss the changes and work out a common ground. There wouldn't be a need for probation if you all could just work together peacefully. Work it out. Lara❤Love 18:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, are you removing the restriction that Dana discuss his proposed changes on talk pages and reach consensus before making them? If you are, please note that on Dana's talk page. Thanks. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
In due respect, it seems that some editors here are not reading the Discussion above . Several days ago I posted information about some recommended changes that I was proposing. I then said that I was going to make these changes unless someone suggested otherwise...and I only received support for doing. Not a single person said others. I then made the changes. Why someone would say that I didn't get support is a bit unclear and suggests bias. As for my summaries, I rightly encouraged people to read the Discussion, though I'm surprised that this wasn't done. This is an article about a specific homeopathic medicine, and the information here should focus on that subject, not the entire subject of homeopathy. If the entire subject of homeopathy needs to be in every homeopathic article in wikipedia, should we expect the entire subject of herbology be included in every article on a single herb? Of course not. And to clarify, LaraLove is still mentoring me, and it is strange that some editors above would suggest otherwise even though they also noted specific mentoring from just last night. To me, these complaints against my editing and me are false complaints that do not show AGF. Dana Ullman 18:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Where exactly did you discuss this? PouponOnToast (talk) 18:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Since LaraLove is no longer taking admin action, the mentorship of Danaullman should be remanded to an admin who has the time and the willingness to use administrative actions. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I quite agree that the edits were made with deceptive edit summaries, and I'm requesting a review under the proceedures of this probation, whether or not Danaullman (talk · contribs) is on probation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Rubin (talk • contribs) 21:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
ScienceApologist is incorrect in saying that LaraLove is no longer my mentor, as her comment to me at my userpage simply 12 hours before ScienceApologist wrote his above comment shows (I wish editors would do a little homework before making accusations). Let's . Arthur Rubin's recommendation to delete the general information on homeopathy in this article was the precise edit that I made and for which he and I are obviously in agreement. And the initial complainer about this specific edit for which Rubin and I agree was by an editor, Poupon-on-Toast, who has now left wikipedia. Don't we all have better and more constructive things to do? Dana Ullman 17:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Checking out out LaraLove's User Talk page, it appears that what ScienceApologist wrote above is correct. Brunton (talk) 18:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

However, if you simply look at her contributions and/or on my user-page, you (or he...or anyone) would find that she is still actively mentoring me. In any case, you now know. Dana Ullman 23:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

edit war continuing at Thuja occidentalis

The edit war continues. Attempts at discussion are being stonewalled. Dlabtot (talk) 20:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The article has been protected by another admin. MastCell  22:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)