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The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Nothing to see here. Final warning given to Jaakobou for trying to use WP:AE as a weapon for block-shopping. This flood of reports is getting out of hand. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Eleland (talk · contribs) again

Arbcom case:

• Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles,
• 'Case Final Decisions' .
• Eleland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

1) I've previously posted 25 diffs from 3 weeks after the Arbcom (i.e. more than one per day) of soft decorum and editorial process violations resulting in a warning for Eleland (talk · contribs).

The diffs were directed -- during conflict -- at editors, not content.

Chosen samples:

• "political leaders of a faction you identify with" stricken. 04:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
• "a ]... makes you look rather desperate"
• "your personal crackpot interpretation of the RSes"
• "because you don't like them."
• "looks a lot like just shouting "antisemite!" because something personally troubles you."
• "quote that you're so very, very fond of."
• "achieved via serial POV-pushing" (directed at a single editor)

2) After the given warning, Eleland has again made a similar violation and was blocked for 48 hours'. Eleland then made a pledge of civility, requesting an unblock which was granted.

• "nsulting language is not appropriate anywhere. I will not again... collaborating to improve articles, not attack one another. I will also pledge not to edit... for seven days starting today. I will refrain from any direct communication with Jaakobou for the same period." - Eleland, 00:34, 15 February 2008.
• "Your request to be unblocked has been granted for the following reason(s): Sounds fair to me." - Jpgordon, 03:25, 15 February 2008.

3) During recent couple days, Eleland has made numerous "indirect" user directed commentary and incivility violations of the Arbcom final decisions.

• "Jayjg... anyone who opposed his fairly ludicrous interpretation" -
• "I can't help but wonder if a person or persons is pushing for the POV of the Israeli extreme right" -
• "Sidelines about incivility (or whatever) will not distract from the real issue here... Benjamin Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman do not hold "veto power" over our presentation of facts in this encyclopedia. Nor do their adherents." -
• "I'm aware that there are far worse Israeli right-wingers than Netanyahu. Some of them edit Misplaced Pages." -

Eleland's approach suggests he purposefully makes personal attacks that are "vague" and "indirect". It has been the same pattern when he previously had the audacity to "indirectly" suggest I was a war criminal or when he made an old apology that looked more like mockery; and I note that it hasn't even been the pledged 7 days since his first block was lifted. Jaakobou 02:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I have to admit that I violated my pledge not to communicate directly with Jaakobou. I forgot it. I do find it interesting that he waited until he had drawn me into a talk page conflict, without making any attempt to remind me, and then posted to WP:AE once he had accumulated a bit of heated dialogue. In any case, if this means my original block needs to be reset, then reset it. I should have taken more care to follow the conditions I volunteered for myself.

First, I'm not sure why Jaakobou chose to cite his earlier "25 diffs" against me. Those diffs were liberally padded with totally innocuous edits, clumsily contextomized, and the whole complaint was dismissed as (almost) totally without merit. No surprise there; his first diff contains my shocking and offensive request that Wikipedians "please, don't tell us what you personally believe, or what notable political leaders of a faction you identify with believe, unless you are able to present credible scholarly sources which endorse those beliefs specifically." Horrors!

I don't know whether Jaakobou is really affronted by this type of simple, reasonable, policy-based commentary, or if he's deliberately quote mining in bad faith, but either way it's getting very tiresome. Look at his bizarre "apology that looked like mockery" claims; that was manifestly a sincere and heartfelt mea culpa, but he's constantly posting that diff as if it's evidence against me!

Likewise, Jaakobou's claim that I stated or implied that he was a war criminal is a simple falsehood. The only statement I made about him was that he is an IDF member; I do not know whether that is the case, I should not have said it, and I withdraw the claim. I stated, correctly, that Jaakobou would not answer questions about whether he was involved in a particular IDF operation. Jaakobou has maliciously tied together the claim about "how destructive actions are" to the IDF member issue, but the full quote makes it clear they are totally separate:

Yes, yes, I have noticed that you like to complain about incivility instead of addressing substantive issues. I find your need to see yourself as a helpless victim, unjustifiably targeted by hostile forces, regardless of how destructive your actions are, to be fascinating If you remove material with no justification, or with no more than a passing reference to some TV show you saw on Israel's equivalent of the Discovery Channel, you'll face this type of response. Two cases in point would be your insertion of the term "Big Jenin Lie" in boldface to the lede, and your original research claims of accusations of "genocide" when that term only appeared once in all of the sources you provided.

Now, on this particular dispute, which occured on Talk:Palestinian people: A review will show that Jaakobou arrived independently at a novel interpretation of the sources, edited the article to reflect this, and then refused to listen to reason when called on it. He wanted to say that the largest Palestinian population (actually, the "majority") is in Jordan, and not the Palestinian territories, because he believes that they are "artificially unified." Well, he's welcome to believe that, but that's not what the sources say. I provided a survey of staunchly pro-Israel sources (Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, Jewish Virtual Library, Yediot Ahranot,) all of which list a population for the West Bank and Gaza in the "artificially unified" fashion. He simply ignored them.

Jaakobou's approach suggests that he starts spurious disputes through questionable editing, sustains them until the point where people lose patience and object pointedly POV-pushing, and then cries "j'accuse" over incivility. It also suggests that he uses intellectually dishonest methods in an effort to secure blocks on his opponents in content disputes. <eleland/talkedits> 03:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention. It was actually Jaakobou, not me, who broke the "no direct communication" provision; shortly after I was unblocked pledging not to talk to him, he started a discussion on my talk page. He was trying to claim that Zionism did not originate in the late 19th century, and that his sources supported this. His sources said that Zionism originated in the late 19th century. I called him on this, he dissembled and made vague accusations about me. I realized what he was doing and blanked the discussion. It looks like he later found a better way to bait me. <eleland/talkedits> 03:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Eleland, just because you believe something to be false and I believe it to be correct does not mean I am practicing in "intellectual dishonesty"; and it certainly doesn't give you justification to make "indirect" suggestions that I'm far worse than extremist right winged politicians. I already gave you a polite request that you stop with these comments, but you've ignored my request and practically dared me to file a complaint. Jaakobou 03:46, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Ferrylodge

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge: Ferrylodge is subject to an editing restriction indefinitely. Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing.

Ferrylodge is behaving disruptively at Talk:Abortion. The entire thread in question is here. He claims that a quote sourced to numerous secondary sources is taken out of context, stating: "This is about as biased and misleading a statement as can be, but I will not attempt to correct it. Instead, as a harmless experiment, I'll provide the full quotation from Dr. Koop, with citation, and we'll see if the people who control this article have the slightest interest in providing any neutrality whatsoever... I'm curious to see whether anyone else will correct it, or whether they prefer it to be grossly misleading and biased in this and so many other ways." This was his initial statement, before anyone even argued the point. He added: "but, who cares about accuracy, right?"

Subsequent highlights include:

• "Attention Admins... None of the cited sources say that Koop used the word "miniscule" in any letter to Reagan. And when a speaker clarifies a statement, as Koop did here, it is dishonest to completely exclude the clarification. This little incident is symptomatic of rampant POV editing in the abortion-related articles." (The "dishonesty" consists of using the quotes selected by the New York Times Magazine and the New Scientist without appending the additional quote that Ferrylodge mined from the primary transcript of the hearings).
• "It appears to be Misplaced Pages policy for admins to look the other way."
• Repeated charges of "dishonesty", concluding with "Evidently, you prefer the article to be grossly misleading and biased in this and so many other ways."
• "...normal Misplaced Pages rules apparently do not apply at the abortion-related articles."
• (In reference to another editor): "This is entirely typical of you... But there's apparently some kind of policy to let you do whatever you want, so I give up."
• (Again in reference to another editor): "You continue to avoid answering a very simple question: Do you believe that you are entitled to insert whatever you like into Misplaced Pages articles, regardless of how many people object? ...Is it because you're able to succeed with this steamrolling that you continue to do it?"
• "OK, I've had it. You're repeatedly pasting massive amounts of redundant stuff, swamping whatever comments other people make, refusing to respond, and genereally being obnoxious. Goodbye, and I hope you enjoy writing this article to satisfy your every whim and fancy, just like you did the fetus article. And shame on Misplaced Pages's admins for allowing such a travesty."

Ferrylodge has, as ArbCom has pointed out, "a long history of disruptive editing on topics related to pregnancy and abortion." His behavior on Talk:Abortion was clearly confrontational rather than collaborative from the get-go, and as usual produced tons of heat and zero light on a topic that's difficult in the best of times. In view of his long history and his current behavior, I'm asking that the ArbCom remedy be enforced and that he be banned from abortion and its associated talk page. MastCell  19:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Mastcell is not an "uninvolved admin" as specified by the ArbCom decision. Mastcell made this edit at the abortion article yesterday. I reverted here. He has not thanked me for correcting him, nor even acknowledged that the POV editorial he was citing did not use the language which he attributed to it. Anyone can look at Mastcell’s edit, and see that my reversion was correct, and that he was inserting an unsourced statement into the abortion article. I urge people to go see if I am telling the truth about this, by looking at the two diffs I have just cited.

Then today, Mastcell accused me of trying to remove “context” from the abortion article, and I replied to that plainly erroneous accusation here. It is absurd for Mastcell to say that deleting a sentence from a quote provides context, and that inserting the sentence removes context. I urge people to go see if I am telling the truth about this, by looking at the diff I have just cited.

Not only is Mastcell not uninvolved here; he has been POV-pushing and making personal attacks, as demonstrated by the diffs I have just provided. And to top it off, he cannot cite any edit that I made to the abortion article that was inappropriate. Instead, he quotes some colorful language from the talk page, which I admit did become somewhat heated, but was not unreasonable given the circumstances.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

If I were an uninvolved admin, I would have topic-banned you based on your well-documented negative effect on these articles. The reason I brought the issue here is that I am involved and therefore not about to use the tools myself. I have made 1 edit to abortion in the past 4 months (that's as far back as I looked). Ferrylodge's expectation that I "thank" him for "correcting" that 1 edit is exemplary of the problem here. Applying "the best defense is a good offense" by attempting to impeach me here is not likely to be successful - you're under ArbCom sanction for a reason. I'm not interested in the sort of endless debate that these conversations inevitably deteriorate into; I've said my piece, and I'll wait for an uninvolved admin to look this over. MastCell  19:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The complained-of comments don't seem disruptive; he provided the full context of the quote, but it wasn't unreasonable for him to predict the reaction in advance. Was his prediction incorrect? Is he supposed to ignore what he sees, and pretend that the heavy contingent of "pro-choice" editors are editing in a neutral fashion, when experience shows otherwise? I think he's entitled to a certain amount of cynicism, given what he's experienced. -- Zsero (talk) 19:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

"Predicting" that people will be "dishonest", "biased", etc in your initial post is a surefire way to generate conflict and sabotage any hope of consensus. Can we keep this area free of input from Ferrylodge's partisans (or mine, I suppose, were that an issue) and allow an admin to review it? MastCell  19:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Mastcell says, "This was his initial statement, before anyone even argued the point." People can look at the edit history of the abortion article, and see that the matter had already been the subject of edit summaries.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

• I notice in reviewing the proposed decision that the restriction version which passed was chosen in favor of an original variant that said "any article or other page". The elimination by the committee of language "or other page" is to me significant. I'm not inclined to take any action based on talk page behavior, and all the diffs above are from the talk page. My review of the article's history does not evidence disruption by Ferrylodge in the past week. I think this report should be closed without action. However, if there is an ongoing pattern of disruptive behavior on talk pages, a case could be made for an expansion of the ArbComm sanctions. I note that there are no prior incidents logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge#Log of blocks and bans, so evidence to support such a request will need to be found elsewhere. GRBerry 19:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Just wanted to say that a request for clarification resulted in an arbitrator saying talk pages were included, see Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge#More clarification requested Mistakenly thought Thatcher was on the ArbCom all these months.-Andrew c  20:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, Andrew c. I'm not clear about who the arbitrator was. In any event, it says at the link you provided that "I personally would allow more freedom on talk pages, but there still will be an actionable level of disruption." And it also seems that the elimination by the committee of the language GRBerry mentions was significant.Ferrylodge (talk) 21:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

User:75.72.88.121

Well, User:75.72.88.121 was already about to be placed on probation on Israel-Palestinian related articles and subsequently blocked for POV pushing (see talk). Well, he's back. One only has to look at this diff to get an idea of the problem presented here. I would also like to put forth the possibility that this is the same person as User:Adnanmuf, who returned to edit war with exactly the same text not just once but twice (even if it's not the same person, he clearly should be on probation as well). The Evil Spartan (talk) 18:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked Adnanmuf (who took over edit-warring from the IP) for blatant edit-warring. Wagging my finger at The Evil Spartan. We sometimes do need to take quality of edits into account when judging the disruptiveness of revert warring. I'm absolutely aware that in doing this I've broken the formal rule of treating both sides equally. Well, I stand by that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Cedar Point

• we have been having a problem in the cedar point artical wits a IP address removing a certain Fan Websight called pointbuzz from the links at the bottom of the page his address has changed once if i do recall but it currently is 24.208.247.221

• I dont know how this dispute thing works but it would in my opinion be best to change this to a registered user only attical

• sorry if i braught this up in the wrong place but its the best think i could find please respond to me in my talk page thank you --Cmedinger (talk) 19:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

eleland

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Sour grapes after the report below (putting it bluntly). Nothing doing here. Moreschi 09:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

• "This user's contributions consist almost entirely of contentious reversions on Israel-Palestine articles, often accompanied by hostile personal commentary" - Not true. "eleland" is pissed of because I submitted his "Israeli Occupation Forces" redirect to RfD.
• He has been bothering me and stalking me for quite a while.
• He's trying to get me blocked due to the fact that my opinions differs from his.

To "eleland" - stop stalking me and stop bothering me. I don't want any kind of connection with people like you. You seriously need to grow up and I won't even bother going over the infinite number of unjustified POVs you've edited into articles. I'm not interested in any kind of discussion with you. Radical-Dreamer (talk) 22:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Radical-Dreamer

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Radical-Dreamer placed on editing restrictions, including 1RR/week for 3 months and indefinite civility supervision, as detailed here. MastCell

This user's contributions consist almost entirely of contentious reversions on Israel-Palestine articles, often accompanied by hostile personal commentary. Since February he has made at least 15 reversions on Israel-Palestine pages and exactly 0 talk page postings.

Edit-warring and POV

• Violating 3RR against 4 different editors to change "The 2006 war with Israel" to "The 2006 war which Hezbollah started against Israel"

• Reverting an unsourced addendum including, " have pushed for Israel to be held responsible for the entire conflict to the United Nations"

• Repeatedly blanking and adding a contested prod template, after specific direction to take it to WP:RFD.
  • Note that I posted on the user's talk page to specifically point out that blanking and re-adding a prod template was inappropriate: he removed the warning with no comment except "Get a life" and continued edit-warring the blanking and prod template:

• Inserting a non-existent image into an article, apparently just out of carelessness while WP:STALKing and reverting me.

Incivility and assuming bad faith

• "We are not debating here whether you're pro-Arab or pro-Israel (although, IMO, it is quite obvious that you're pro-Arab)."

• "The author is a Palestinian who inserts his own P.O.V. into articles and creates these kind of redirections."
  • Agreed with the substance of Eleland's report. Radical-Dreamer is therefore placed on various editing restrictions, including a revert limitation and civility supervision. See here for details. Moreschi 09:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
    • You're doing this out of support for Eleland POVs and abusing your privileges. But fine, Eleland will get blocked eventually. It's only a matter of time. Radical-Dreamer (talk) 16:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Radical-Dreamer, Eleland's POV does not justify purposely running after him and making violations of WP:NPA and WP:CIV. If you have a case against him then you should gather it and post it at the proper forums such as WP:ANI, WP:AE (as Eleland posted with examples on you) or you can try WP:DR also.

I suggest you read the Arbcom final decisions and take serious notes. p.s. saying "out of support for Eleland POVs" is a big no-no even if he fits the "involved admin" descriptions in the final decision of the Arbcom.

Eleland, You can't be surprised when someone accuses you for POV when you create Israeli Occupation Forces (history)... did you calmly explained the situation to Radical-Dreamer or did you add some spirit with your reply?

To a reviewing admin, I'm a very involved editor and should not make character judgments, but I feel Eleland, who was just blocked for 48 hours for his own violations has his own hand in causeing this conflict and that while Radical-Dreamer reacted poorly and violated the final decisions, he should be given a warning first and only blocked if the stalking issue persists. I disagree with some of the content based diffs presented, but as I've said, I'm highly involved and was even called "Mr. POV pusher" by another involved editor.

With respect, Jaakobou 18:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC) added a personal note 18:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Martinphi

Martinphi (talk · contribs) who is under an editing restriction outlined here has stalked me from WTBDWK to Consciousness causes collapse where he made the following provocative edit: . Another user pointed out that the effect of Martin's edit was to reinstate a word to avoid that has scientific implications which is particularly disruptive to an article about pseudoscience. Martin's response was astonishing: where he states, in part: "That was only meant to reverse the nonconsensus stuff by a blocked user." The reference to "blocked user" refers to my wholly unrelated block for a claimed instance of incivilty in accusing another user of making an edit that looked POV-pushing at cold fusion mediation. The other problem in the reference to "nonconsensus stuff". These attempts by Martin to claim certain edits are "nonconsensus" while others are is a hallmark pattern in the disruptive editing by users of his *ahem* ilk. It appears to me that Martin is now taking it upon himself to wikistalk and revert me. ScienceApologist (talk) 13:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Response

Wikistalking- Consciousness causes collapse was posted on the Fringe noticeboard . In addition, I was asked by a friend to look into it. The edit which SA says is disruptive above was merely returning to a version prior to many anti-consensus changes SA had made before his edit warring caused the article to be locked . Here is how I remember it:

Failing to gain consensus on the talk page (this for example), SA made heavy against-consensus edits to the article.

He edit warred to keep those edits in- I did not participate in that edit war.

The article was protected because of SA's actions .

The article was then unprotected because consensus on talk page indicated the need for an AfD tag.

SA was then blocked for 96 hours for unrelated disruption and incivility.

The article was unprotected, and rather than leave the anti-consensus changes in place for days, I reverted the article to about where I thought the last stable version was, and kept an edit I thought was non-controversial. However, I missed one edit at least which should have been retained, as explained on the talk page .

Please note my edit stayed in place- it was a consensus edit.

SA also does not show that I attempted to keep consensus edits by restoring WAS's edit .

I will leave it up to the admins whether this report itself is appropriate and appropriately phrased per SA's own restrictions. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I would also request that SA stop doing stuff like this. There seems to be a perception that any consensus with which SA doesn't agree is disruption- see this. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Martinphi wikistalking and harrassment

It has been suggested that this case be brought here.. Martinphi has engaged in disruptive editing at Yi Ching, has falsely accused me of many things including trolling which I find very offensive , has reverted me on Reiki and attempted to assuage this by saying he knows my edit was in good faith , has wikistalked me to Yi Ching and reverted me with the rude edit statement "egad" and has removed the POV tag despite the wishes of at least two editors and falsely claiming consensus. He has also removed from his talkpage my efforts to try to solve these problems . He also wikistalked me to the project Misplaced Pages:Words_to_avoid and made this revert despite my comments on the takpage standing for a few days. Mccready (talk) 01:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Number 57 (talk · contribs)

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Much as I hate to disappoint, nobody is getting blocked or paroled today (such a shame, after all that). Both parties are warned to play nice with each other in future. Moreschi 10:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

User has violated the Decorum principals, specifically 'personal attack', 'incivility', and 'assumption of bad faith' with the following edit summary and diff:

• "Mr POV pusher himself"
• "the biggest POV pusher around" - пﮟოьεԻ 57, 16:00, 13 February 2008.

Requesting a retraction and apology or administrative action. Jaakobou 16:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm certainly not going to apologise. I might have WP:AGF a year ago, but your contributions make it quite clear that you are a POV pusher; as evidenced here. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The Arbcom ended a month ago with no action taken against either of us. I believe that bad faith assumptions and personal attacks are detrimental to the Israeli-Palestiian articles and to the project in general. Jaakobou 16:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

There was no action taken against me because I wasn't an involved party, and I have no idea why there was no action taken against you given the weight of evidence provided my myself and several other editors. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Your link is misleading as you were certainly mentioned in the presented evidence but this is entirely germane to the reason I posted this complaint. Jaakobou 16:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Only by yourself in an attempt to discredit my evidence against you, and in passing by two editors, one of whom noted my response to an RfC, and another who noted that pro-Israeli editors attempted to bring down my RfA. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea on how your comment relates to this complaint about a personal attack, but I'd be interested in resolving the old disputes and avoiding future similar attacks in the future. I think the best solution would be a retraction (and maybe even an apology) so that we can move forward, but I don't see that you're interested in leaving the past in the past. Jaakobou 16:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd be willing to forgive and forget, but whilst you have reduced your bias in the article space, the fact that you're complaining about Nickhh's perfectly legitimate NPOVing of several articles suggests that there is still an underlying issue. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Nickhh is not the person making the "Mr POV pusher himself" comment.

I'm requesting a retraction. Jaakobou 16:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• Links should always be to the final decision in a case, not the proposed decision. The final decision is at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Final decision. I, who read the enforcement definition of "Uninvolved administrators" very stringently, defer evaluation of the situation to other administrators here. Frankly, though, I think the complainant deserves close scrutiny and am certain they are not an uninvolved bystander. GRBerry 17:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
• I also will not consider myself an "uninvolved administrator" by a stringent definition, since I am currently working with Jaakobou on a different Palestine-related article. However, it would seem to me that the operative part of remedy 1 of that case is "despite being warned, repeatedly or seriously fails". 1) Is there evidence that the user has been warned that his behavior is inappropriate? 2) Is there evidence that his behavior entails serious failings after said warning? If so, let's see it, please. - Revolving Bugbear 21:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• I can live with a retraction (and hopefully an apology), but Number 57 just repeats the same "he's POV!!!" vindication of the insulting comment. Jaakobou 23:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

There are only quotes and case decision links here. Both sides please provide pertinent DIFFS. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say that Jaakobou's repeated reinsertion of a huge criticism section to the article on left-wing journalist Gideon Levy ( - at one stage the criticism section amounted to more than two thirds of the article's length) was a clear violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight, and thus a good basis for pointing out that he is a POV pusher. пﮟოьεԻ 57 11:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

My complaint here

• per '"Mr POV pusher himself... the biggest POV pusher around (which is why I want you banned from Middle East articles)"'

Has nothing to do with a months old argument from October that Number 57 has etched to his memory (similar opposite examples exist but are germane). Number 57's old notes only show that he is an involved admin, who refuses to let go of very old disputes, and therefore should not pertain to be neutral.

On point, Personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith are a violation of the Arbcom final decision and as long as he does not post an ANI or AE notice about recent activity; Number 57 should avoid making comments while reminiscing about conflicts we had months ago.

My request is a retraction (and hopefully an apology) or administrative action.

-- Jaakobou 12:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• Number57-that's from 5 months ago. Anything more recent?
• Jaakobou-you have not provided diffs of your allegations of 57's incivility and personal attacks. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I may be able to help. How about this whole section, written by Jaakobou more or less in its entirety, and last amended only a couple of days ago? Or this factual error which happily meets a POV that suits. Or this, in total breach of a recent RfC? Can I also refer to several trivial and vexatious posts complaining about the actions of other editors on this very page, including this one and the one below? --Nickhh (talk) 22:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I was about to provide this diff of Jaakobou changing an article to state that something in the West Bank is in Israel (obviously breaching WP:NPOV), but Nick beat me to it. пﮟოьεԻ 57 22:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

— Rlevse,

There is a single recent diff of the POV charges issue I've raised here, and other similar comments go back about a month (Arbcom days) or more.

The diffs presented by Number 57 and Nickhh, are misleading. They pick single edits out of their content based arguments. The "worst" example, Mar Saba, I've already admitted was a good faith error and my error was nicely resolved by ChrisO who corrected it, and actually made a small error of his own which I in turn corrected and all was well:

"thanks for the clarification!" - ChrisO, 01:05, 2 February 2008.

Mar Saba relevant discussion (if you're interested): .

My problem is that Number 57, who is an admin, sees nothing wrong with holding grudges and making these statements (self-justified "the biggest POV pusher around..I want you banned" charges); and he's promoting bad behavior from non admins who are emboldened by his comments. see this recent comment:

• "Get over yourself. It's like dealing with a sexually frustrated and incontinent adolescent." Nickhh, 23:18, 14 February 2008.

I don't see a good reason that a highly involved admin will point fingers like Number 57 did. I believe it is not only a violation of the Arbcom Final decisions but that it promotes similar conduct from non-admins. I've initially requested a retraction since there was only a single recent such comment; but I don't see any sign that Number 57 might scale back. Jaakobou 04:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, how about some more then. Jaakobou's entire purpose of editing Misplaced Pages appears to be to either insert or strengthen negativity about Palestinians/Arabs, or to remove or weaken negativity about Israel. пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

If my entire purpose is as Number 57 proffeses, then I would not be writing 95% of Haim Farhi, retouching Image:Peasant Family of Ramallah 1900-1910.jpg (used as the main image for all the Palestinian articles) and Image:FatehMilitia.jpg, working to fix problems on Yemenite Jews etc. etc.

I've already shown on the Arbcom that Number 57 has violated WP:3RR and WP:TE himself, and this entire discussion is not about content, but rather violations of the Arbcom decisions, which Number 57 refuses to recognize.

To be specific, this comment is a violation of the Decorum Principals. Jaakobou 11:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

So you have made 10 edits to Haim Farhi; kinda pales into comparison with 182 edits on Battle of Jenin, 92 on Media coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict and 71 on Muhammad al-Durrah. In fact every single one of your 15 most-edited articles are controversial Israel-Palestinian ones . In reply to your other points (a) I was asked to provide evidence to back up my claim, and (b) in the "evidence" you link to, you only claimed that I violated WP:3RR, so now trying to claim to have shown that I violated WP:TE seems to be a little bizaare (though is in line with your standard attempts to devalue criticism against your behaviour by attacking the criticiser).

Anyway, this will be my last reply to this farce, as quite frankly I have better things to do on Misplaced Pages (i.e. constructively editing articles) than this. пﮟოьεԻ 57 11:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Since a retraction request of the uncivil personal attack was rejected by Number 57, I request some form of administrative action that will hopefully prevent future similar "better things to do on Misplaced Pages" contributions. Jaakobou 12:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

comment - diff numbers say nothing; I've created 90% of the Haim Farhi article on my first contribution. I've also tried to slowly create good changes on problematic articles, and at those days tag-team 3RR was the norm.

Number 57's violation of 3RR shows not only that norm in action, but also how (certain few) admins abused their rollback tools in these edit conflicts while deleting anything that might be construed as pro-Israeli.

Sure, I've had my judgment lapses and made many errors in the (5 months ago past), but regardless, even if I am (allegedly) a POV pusher, an involved admin should not follow established editors to complaints they've made about someone else and bluntly state: "Mr. POV pusher... I want you banned".

I was thinking a retraction could, hopefully, solve this long standing issue fast and the suggestion still stands. Jaakobou 10:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, so it's ok so describe someone as "not neutral" and strongly insinuate that they are POV pushing by saying they delete "anything that that might be construed as pro-Israeli.", but not to actually call them a POV pusher? Hilarious.

Also, you might be interested to know that I also delete pro-Palestinian stuff. The joys of working on Israeli-Palestinian articles! пﮟოьεԻ 57 00:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

"I want you banned"... hysterical right? Jaakobou 01:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

p.s. You are an involved admin who assumes bad faith and makes uncivil personal attacks at the hint that you are not impartial. Jaakobou 01:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting question. Is a calmly stated opinion that a particular set of articles would be better without a particular editor in itself a personal attack? I don't think so. Relata refero (talk) 18:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand. Are you saying that there's nothing wrong with calling someone "Mr. POV himself, I want you banned" while you are an involved editor? Jaakobou 21:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about Mr.POV, but merely saying he doesn't understand why you're still permitted to edit a particular set of articles is relatively mild, I'd say. Relata refero (talk) 23:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

That's not what he said. He did not ask another Admin "why is he allowed to edit on...", he went directly to me and told me Biggest POV pusher ever!... I want you banned!. Thank you for making excuses for him though. Jaakobou 09:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not making excuses. I'm trying to work out what the limits of civility parole are here. Because, as I dont know the particulars of this particular dispute, I can see that I frequently tell people when I'm convinced they're pushing a POV, and I have even been known to mention to people that certain areas of the project would be better without them. At what point does that become uncivil? Genuine question, as I said. Relata refero (talk) 09:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I might also mention that Jaakobou is attempting to mislead editors by (a) twice incorrectly asserting that I am an involved party on that RfAr - the list of involved parties is here - I merely provided evidence to the case; and (b) appears to be attempting to make my comments looks worse by inserting exclamation marks to them. пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Resolved requests

eleland

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Sour grapes after the report below (putting it bluntly). Nothing doing here. Moreschi 09:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

• "This user's contributions consist almost entirely of contentious reversions on Israel-Palestine articles, often accompanied by hostile personal commentary" - Not true. "eleland" is pissed of because I submitted his "Israeli Occupation Forces" redirect to RfD.
• He has been bothering me and stalking me for quite a while.
• He's trying to get me blocked due to the fact that my opinions differs from his.

To "eleland" - stop stalking me and stop bothering me. I don't want any kind of connection with people like you. You seriously need to grow up and I won't even bother going over the infinite number of unjustified POVs you've edited into articles. I'm not interested in any kind of discussion with you. Radical-Dreamer (talk) 22:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Radical-Dreamer

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Radical-Dreamer placed on editing restrictions, including 1RR/week for 3 months and indefinite civility supervision, as detailed here. MastCell

This user's contributions consist almost entirely of contentious reversions on Israel-Palestine articles, often accompanied by hostile personal commentary. Since February he has made at least 15 reversions on Israel-Palestine pages and exactly 0 talk page postings.

Edit-warring and POV

• Violating 3RR against 4 different editors to change "The 2006 war with Israel" to "The 2006 war which Hezbollah started against Israel"

• Reverting an unsourced addendum including, " have pushed for Israel to be held responsible for the entire conflict to the United Nations"

• Repeatedly blanking and adding a contested prod template, after specific direction to take it to WP:RFD.
  • Note that I posted on the user's talk page to specifically point out that blanking and re-adding a prod template was inappropriate: he removed the warning with no comment except "Get a life" and continued edit-warring the blanking and prod template:

• Inserting a non-existent image into an article, apparently just out of carelessness while WP:STALKing and reverting me.

Incivility and assuming bad faith

• "We are not debating here whether you're pro-Arab or pro-Israel (although, IMO, it is quite obvious that you're pro-Arab)."

• "The author is a Palestinian who inserts his own P.O.V. into articles and creates these kind of redirections."
  • Agreed with the substance of Eleland's report. Radical-Dreamer is therefore placed on various editing restrictions, including a revert limitation and civility supervision. See here for details. Moreschi 09:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
    • You're doing this out of support for Eleland POVs and abusing your privileges. But fine, Eleland will get blocked eventually. It's only a matter of time. Radical-Dreamer (talk) 16:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Radical-Dreamer, Eleland's POV does not justify purposely running after him and making violations of WP:NPA and WP:CIV. If you have a case against him then you should gather it and post it at the proper forums such as WP:ANI, WP:AE (as Eleland posted with examples on you) or you can try WP:DR also.

I suggest you read the Arbcom final decisions and take serious notes. p.s. saying "out of support for Eleland POVs" is a big no-no even if he fits the "involved admin" descriptions in the final decision of the Arbcom.

Eleland, You can't be surprised when someone accuses you for POV when you create Israeli Occupation Forces (history)... did you calmly explained the situation to Radical-Dreamer or did you add some spirit with your reply?

To a reviewing admin, I'm a very involved editor and should not make character judgments, but I feel Eleland, who was just blocked for 48 hours for his own violations has his own hand in causeing this conflict and that while Radical-Dreamer reacted poorly and violated the final decisions, he should be given a warning first and only blocked if the stalking issue persists. I disagree with some of the content based diffs presented, but as I've said, I'm highly involved and was even called "Mr. POV pusher" by another involved editor.

With respect, Jaakobou 18:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC) added a personal note 18:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Jewish Neighborhoods versus Israeli Settlements of Jerusalem

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Centralized discussion is up. Please restrict usage of this page to bring up enforcement issues only. El_C 07:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

For excessive reverts on related articles (Pisgat Ze'ev, Gilo, Ramot, Har Homa, Neve Yaakov), Colourinthemeaning (talk · contribs), ILike2BeAnonymous (talk · contribs), Robertert (talk · contribs), Gilabrand (talk · contribs), and possibly other users upon examination (needless to say, anyone else reverting on this set of articles, is at risk of being added), are, for the next month, placed on a one-(talk page obligatory)-rr on any Jerusalem-related entry. We are not going to have this multiple-entry revert war go on, indefinitely. I gotta step out now, but I will give this formula further thought later. Comment below, but please keep them brief. Long winded debate will be aggressively redacted. Many thanks. El_C 23:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, please do take action against User:Colourinthemeaing, who went ahead and did a blanket revert well after you sent this message. In fact, this person should be blocked from Misplaced Pages altogether for the disruptive and aggressive nature of his "editing," which is to go from article to article and insert his personal views, and promptly set off an argument with people who have long contributed to the page before he parachuted out of nowhere and decided that he is God's gift to Misplaced Pages (if not mankind).--Gilabrand (talk) 16:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I wish someone could put in some time to read through all this. I know that it isn't the most simple dispute but it is straightforward. Most of the discussion is here. --Robertert (talk) 10:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

There's no "someone," there's only moi. I highly doubt anyone else would be willing to look into this. These disputes are too time consuming and the Arbitration Committee strict criteria of "uninvolved" means that few admins looking into these issues have the necessary familiarity with the content to speed things up enough. Anyway, both sides are allowed one revert per day, including a talk page comment. No one has violated that, yet. And, no, nobody is getting blocked, yet. I'll set up a centralized one, so please respond there. El_C 07:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

RodentofDeath (talk · contribs)

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

blocked 31 hours by FutPerf

RodentofDeath (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

74.220.203.56 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

74.220.203.56 adds an RFC similar to the one added a few days ago by 202.69.172.48 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log)), which was blocked for being banned user RodentofDeath. Incidentally, RodentofDeath self-identifies as a traveler who can post from geographically varying IP addresses. / edg ☺ ☭ 21:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Contribs show no edits to an RFC by either IP. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Correct. Edits are to Talk:Human trafficking in Angeles City. 74.220.203.56 is resuming a campaign started by 202.69.172.48, which is pretty obviously RodentofDeath. Identical request with substitute language. / edg ☺ ☭ 08:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

IP blocked. I wouldn't have taken the new edit on its own as clear evidence, as it was relatively moderately worded, but the exact identity with the wording of the previous IP, which had been much more distinctly Rodent-like in its second edit, makes things clear enough, I think. Feel free to roll back its edits. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Kékrōps (talk · contribs)

Kékrōps (talk · contribs) was recently placed under an 1r/d revert parole under WP:ARBMAC by Moreschi, and promptly blocked for a breach of it a few days after. Now, two days after his coming back from that block, I see him revert-warring on talk pages , . He was also continuing various slow revert wars across several articles yesterday, while sticking with 1r/d, yet ignoring the requirement of accompanying talk page discussion here , , . Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I was not aware that restoring a comment of mine, removed by another user on a third party's talk page, constituted a violation of any revert parole. To me, having my comments deleted is a simple case of obvious vandalism. Regarding my other reversions, they were either clearly explained in my edit summaries as a straightforward enforcement of WP:MOSMAC, thus not requiring further explanation on the talk pages, or a restoration of an administrator's version that had been vandalised. As for my recent block, I believe it was unjustified. It was not a content dispute; I was simply reverting the obviously misleading claim that consensus had been achieved on the use of "Macedonia" in country templates, when in fact the matter was still being debated by several editors on the relevant talk page. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 07:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Being "an administrator's version" is nothing that confers a version any special degree of authority, and makes reverting to it any less a part of revert warring. I suppose you are referring to this one - that didn't even have an edit summary, and the edit you reverted was most certainly not vandalism. You've been here long enough to know all these things. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I guess we must have different interpretations of "vandalism", then. If removing a long-standing note that specifically restricts the scope of a template, in order to facilitate a POV edit, is not vandalism, what is it? I remind you that this was a note established by consensus. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The disputed user talk page comments (, ) strike me as being both provocative and unnecessary. Fut. Perf. had asked for a translation, not a political commentary, and the comments aren't a good idea as far as Misplaced Pages:Civility is concerned. I note that WP:CIV authorises the removal of uncivil comments so it seems rather unwise to twice revert such a removal, particularly in the light of the clearly expressed reason for removing it prior to the second revert. Concerning this reversion , Kekrops has a point although it was arguably a clumsily done reversion (it certainly should have had an edit summary). The version that he reverted to is essentially one that's been in place since October 2006 () and there's a long-standing convention that "countries" templates don't list unrecognised territories (compare Template:Countries of Europe with Template:Countries and territories of the Middle East, which has a wider scope). We may need to change the scope of Template:Countries of Europe and its subordinate templates to encompass territories, but that's a discussion that needs to take place elsewhere before European territories start getting listed in templates. Personally, I would have reverted that edit as well. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Is using racist epithets against other ethnic groups, albeit in another language, acceptable according to Misplaced Pages:Civility? Why haven't these editors been sanctioned for calling Bulgarians "Tatars" and Greeks "sub-saharans"? Another editor has even tried to defend them by denying that they implied inferiority and instead accused me of racism for suggesting that they did, as well as telling me to "shut up" in Spanish in the edit summary. I'm finding it very hard to assume good faith here. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 08:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Update: I have now been accused of "baiting" the editor who made the racist remarks in the first place. Is this acceptable? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

No, using racial epithets in any language isn't acceptable. If we can have a proper translation of that discussion (which I assume is in Macedonian?) let's review what it actually says so that action can be taken if needed. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Translation is on Fut. Perf's talk page. And Kékrōps seems to have a history of racism, see user talk:Kékrōps#Racist! and User talk:Kékrōps#Marcos Baghdatis. Both times his response to accusations was "Piss off". BalkanFever 11:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I request that disciplinary action be taken against the above user for persistently calling me a racist, a clear violation of WP:NPA. I have repeatedly asked him to stop, to no avail. Enough is enough. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 11:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The behaviour towards Kekrops, especially by admin Fut.Perf. is a blatant case of double standards, if you see Fut.Perf.'s behaviour towards BalkanFever. In one case he's quick to ban (or rather refer the ban to Moreschi), in the other case he's the first to stand in support and just offer friendly advice Now I might be biased and consider that BalkanFever is much more provocative than Kekrops, but let's for a moment consider that they are both equally provocative and then monitor the admins behaviour towards them. I invite any third party to do exactly that.--   Avg    18:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing me to that talk page discussion. From my reading of it, Raso mk and MacedonianBoy had called Bulgarians and Greeks "Tatars" and "sub-saharans" respectively; you were advising MacedonianBoy to avoid using such language because it was racist and would give other users the chance to complain. In response, Kekrops posted the comments that you twice removed and he twice reverted (). Is that correct? If so, my take on it is as follows: Kekrops was factually correct to criticize MacedonianBoy's language as basically racist, but he was unwise to cause unnecessary aggravation by posting inflammatory comments, and doubly unwise to abuse reversion to restore his comments after your objections. You were right to caution MacedonianBoy against using language that could give offence, but it wasn't the best idea in the circumstances for you to remove Kekrops' comments (leave that to MacedonianBoy, it's his talk page). I think the two of you need to be more careful about the way you deal with each other - don't remove each others' comments, don't abuse reversion and think before you post. If it's not necessary to post something, don't post it. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. But the reason I removed it was because of the unnecessary aggravation. I still consider that as Kekrops' original purpose. After calming MacedonianBoy down, and successfully persuading him to not make offensive comments any more, I honestly felt that Kekrops' comments would send the whole situation back to square one. BalkanFever 08:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It was important to clarify in English what he said and against whom, so that appropriate action could be taken. You obviously disagree. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 19:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

If it's so obvious, why did I translate his comments in the first place? You were not asked to clarify anything - 1) because you do not understand the Macedonian language, and 2) because Future Perfect can draw conclusions from the translation himself. BalkanFever 02:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not wish to advocate Kekrops position or something, but I think he has hit a few spots here. I noticed he not only got a revert parole, but he might be endangered by a lengthy block. So what I think is - this would be quite unfair - yeah I know that Kekrops is here from a long time and should have got familiar with the rules by now, and that we should always assume good faith (if that's possible for someone that has a Userbox "This user does not believe in Greek history" - whatever that has to mean - its his right to have such a box after all), but then is there any particular reason as to why the other user didn't get any block? And BalkanFever's two edit-wars on Vergina Sun and United Macedonia passed on unnoticed - he was not even warned for it and yet the topics are well within the Balkan's peremeter. I'd understand Kekrops and the other Greek editors feeling a little frustrated. --Laveol 21:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It's funny that you don't mention the other guy who was involved - User:The Cat and the Owl (If you are interested in userboxes, check that out ;-)). I really don't see what blocking MacedonianBoy could have achieved - the comments were made on his talk page, which he would have been allowed to edit anyway while blocked. Not to mention he was unaware of WP:ARBMAC at the time. BalkanFever 02:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

But you are ;) . And he should not be using ethnic slurs when he refers to other editors (or to anybody) and in this case he is well aware what he's saying (writing) and if it offends someone. --Laveol 15:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Which is what I told him. Where are you going with this? BalkanFever 15:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The point is that even though you told him in a private Slavic conversation not to use racist slurs, when the matter was raised in English, you chose to defend rather than condemn him. And by the way, I know enough South Slavic to know when I'm being insulted, so it was entirely appropriate for me to point it out to everyone rather than wait for someone to translate the conversation. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 06:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I translated it over 2 hours before you made the comment. BalkanFever 06:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

My bad; I didn't see your translation until afterwards, as it was on another talk page, not where the racist comments were initially made and the translation requested. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 06:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I concentrated more on who requested the translation, not on where they requested it. BalkanFever 07:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Revert parole for Kékrōps altered and extended: logged at WP:ARBMAC. Moreschi 11:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)