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moldovan flag
Does anyone know why the moldovan flag has the flag of the ottoman empire in it in the form of a bulls horn? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.248.187.200 (talk) 04:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Possible Moldova project
Anyone interested in a dedicated group, which is initially proposed to begin as a task force, dedicated to improving content relating to the nation of Moldova is more than welcome to indicate their interest at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Moldova work group. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 15:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Xasha's edits
Xasha, I reverted your additions, because I thought many things you added violated NPOV, and it would have been too much of a hassle to try to remove that content. I will try to go back and reintroduce the more uncontroversial edits you made. Some of the things that you added that I found objectionable are saying that the Council only voted for union with Romania because of the influence of the Romanian army, the statement that Romanians wanted Moldovans to view them as brothers, changing Romanian to Moldovan in the inter-war period, even though in the Romanian census the population was recorded as Romanian, and a few other things. Due to the controversial nature of this section, please describe some of the more extensive changes you wish to make on the talk page first so that other users can discuss them. TSO1D (talk) 20:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, after I reintroduced some your changes, it seems that the difference between your version and the current version isn't that great. I only omitted a few sentences and words. Please feel free to discuss those issues here. TSO1D (talk) 20:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
They were all from the book "Nation-building and Contested Identities", published in the same time at Iasi's Publirom and Budapest's Regio Book in 2001. The author is a lecturer at the University of Bucharest , so you can't say it's propaganda or lies. Here's a presentation of the book. You may not like it, because it doesn't fit the traditional nationalist history, but it is souced. From what I've read on policy pages, you must accept this text unless you can prove the source is biased. However, I'll let you think about it (or prove me wrong) before restoring the text. Xasha (talk) 21:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, Misplaced Pages policy in this regard is a bit more complicated. Please take a look at WP:NPOV. One aspect of this policy is that simply because something is sourced does not automatically qualify it to be included. It also has to reflect a neutral point of view attributing all disputed issues to a particular source, providing multiple sources for those issues, and not giving undue weight to one side. Furthermore, it is often better to add details to the relevant subarticle, for example that would be History of Moldova in this case. TSO1D (talk) 22:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Who decides what's a NPOV? This is an article of a lecturer of the University of Bucharest, in a book edited by a reputable Romanian publisher and favourably reviewed by Romanian-American historian Vladimir Tismăneanu, so you can't accuse it of Soviet propaganda or manipulative POV. I don't see anything in the Misplaced Pages article that disputes what that source says. If there are some Romanian nationalist who say otherwise, it's not my job to search their writings for their personal views. I find it stupid to prevent the publication of some information just because there may be some book in the world that may dispute it.Xasha (talk) 22:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
About the census in interwar Romania: we have proofs that a signifiant number of Ukrainians were counted as "Romanians who had forgotten their mother language", so it's no surprise there were no Moldovans in the census. (It's the only Bessarabian census with no Moldovans - Romanians, on the other hand, appear in every census since 1897). The policy in Romania nowadays is the same: if you say you're a Moldovan, Oltenian or Vlach, you're counted as Romanian.Xasha (talk) 22:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- In the census, you can define yourself however you like. For instance, in the last census, there were around 100 people who claimed to be "Dacians". :-) bogdan (talk) 22:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- So how come no Moldovans or Vlachs?Xasha (talk) 22:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, did it contain a blank field too, like the last Russian one? Were there any Hobbits counted? :-) --Illythr (talk) 23:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- From census data: "In the data processing at certain ethnic groups were included: the Romanians – also include the persons who declared themselves Aromanians (25053 persons) and Macedonian-Romanians (1334 persons)", ("Vlach" is exonym for "Aromanian", meaning they don't call themselves "Vlachs" other people, Greeks and Serbs call them "Vlachs") I don't know about Moldovans, I bet there were not more than couple of hundreds who declared themselves "Moldovans" I don't know about "Dacians" haven't found the info, but it's very much possible, the number is probably included in the 151615 "Other ethnic groups" before you jump to the conclusion that most of the 151615 are "Moldovans" in North-East region there are only 6765 "Other ethnic". So there you go... Ah, and hobbits are there too, the ones who declared themselves as such, the rest go undercover. -- AdrianTM (talk) 23:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't say that all people in Moldavia west of Pruth declared themselves Moldovans in 2002, just that the Romanian government didnt change it's attitude towards Moldovans since 1930. However, I think Moldovans are counted as Romanians, as the Vlachs, rather than "Other ethnic groups". Is there any way to get the raw results of the census (that doesn't add people based on Romania's government policy)?Xasha (talk) 23:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- I doubt that, when there was an aggregation done it was clearly specified in text. I've never met somebody from Moldavia who declare himself/herself "Moldovan" or "Moldavian" in the sense of ethnicity. Like how Americans declare themselves "New Englanders" or a "Yankees" that doesn't mean "non-American", during the census I doubt many of them declares themselves "Yankees". (and there is no anti-yankee conspiration either...)-- AdrianTM (talk) 00:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- In the meetings before the results were released they discussed this "problem", and decided to take care of it by adding the results. Did you meet all the 4,7 million? And the US census is very different from the usual Eastern European census. But let's come back to our discussion: Why were sourced informations deleted from the article?Xasha (talk) 01:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I doubt that, when there was an aggregation done it was clearly specified in text. I've never met somebody from Moldavia who declare himself/herself "Moldovan" or "Moldavian" in the sense of ethnicity. Like how Americans declare themselves "New Englanders" or a "Yankees" that doesn't mean "non-American", during the census I doubt many of them declares themselves "Yankees". (and there is no anti-yankee conspiration either...)-- AdrianTM (talk) 00:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't say that all people in Moldavia west of Pruth declared themselves Moldovans in 2002, just that the Romanian government didnt change it's attitude towards Moldovans since 1930. However, I think Moldovans are counted as Romanians, as the Vlachs, rather than "Other ethnic groups". Is there any way to get the raw results of the census (that doesn't add people based on Romania's government policy)?Xasha (talk) 23:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- From census data: "In the data processing at certain ethnic groups were included: the Romanians – also include the persons who declared themselves Aromanians (25053 persons) and Macedonian-Romanians (1334 persons)", ("Vlach" is exonym for "Aromanian", meaning they don't call themselves "Vlachs" other people, Greeks and Serbs call them "Vlachs") I don't know about Moldovans, I bet there were not more than couple of hundreds who declared themselves "Moldovans" I don't know about "Dacians" haven't found the info, but it's very much possible, the number is probably included in the 151615 "Other ethnic groups" before you jump to the conclusion that most of the 151615 are "Moldovans" in North-East region there are only 6765 "Other ethnic". So there you go... Ah, and hobbits are there too, the ones who declared themselves as such, the rest go undercover. -- AdrianTM (talk) 23:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
About the census, I agree with you, if people had declared themselves as "Moldovan", they would have been recorded as "Romanian." But that is exactly my point, we should be presenting the results as they were recorded. TSO1D (talk) 02:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
- Of course, but this would have been mentioned just like Aromanians were included in the count and it was mentioned, the census was done by professionals who would not invalidate the results by just recording in a different category. No, I haven't met all the Moldavians (I mean those from Romania, not "Moldovans"), but I haven't met one who didn't consider himself/herself Romanian, of course there's still time... there are even some Texans who don't consider themselves Americans... I don't doubt that there are some who don't consider themselves Romanians, but again that's beside the point, the point is that this is about Moldova not about Romania -- AdrianTM (talk) 03:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
BTW, why isn't there any article about the Romanian region of Moldavia?Xasha (talk) 13:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
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