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Talk:Prem Rawat

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Former good article nomineePrem Rawat was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Organization of this Discussion Page

I would like to collapse several threads that are dealing with the same issue into one section each respectively, with subsections as appropriate. Main categories that could be stagnate: "The Photo", "The Lede", "Hunt", "Kissing of Feet", "Time Article", "References", and all the discussion over the article about Jossi, his statement of purpose, and everyone's comments who were "disturbed".

I think this would help the snowballing of this page, as well as keep some editors in here from starting new threads about a subject that has been well covered.
Also, I think this would help any outside admins or editors to see in a concise manner the way in which the page is discussed. Onefinalstep (talk) 21:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I've regrouped recent talk about the Criticism section below under #Discussion on "Criticism" section from 8 February 2008 --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Concern regarding place/time incoherence of references

The first sentence of the second paragraph of the lead section:

In June 1971, Rawat left India to speak in London, Paris, Heidelberg and Los Angeles, where he was the subject of substantial media attention and criticized for what was considered a lack of intellectual content in his teachings and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle.

My concern:

  • ref 4 is a 1982 Dutch book: not clear whether it links in time or in place to any of the four places mentioned as being visited when in June 1971 Rawat left India?
  • (ref 5 is a 2001 book, as its title refers to the "late Vietnam war era" this might link to the media attention when visiting Los Angeles after leaving India in June 1971.)
  • ref 6 is from 1975. Although published in the USA (The Ruston Daily Leader) the criticism originated in fact in India, from Rawat's mother. The sentence where this reference is added jostles with that: "Rawat left India", visited four places far from India "where he was criticised " - and then follows a criticism originating in India... no, not OK, bad style. (bolding was added)
  • ref 7 is from 2003, and is apparently not written from a seventies perspective (e.g. "Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers." - bolding added)
  • (ref 8 is from 1997. As it is from a dictionary, and no text is quoted directly, place/time might be in order here)

Far from wanting that ref 4, 6 and 7 be removed I just want to point out that it is a non-encyclopedia-worthy type of embellishment to make it seem (in the intro of the article) as if the criticism only extends to his speaking tour to London, Paris, Heidelberg and Los Angeles after leaving India in June 1971 (mentioned in the second paragraph of the intro), and, also suggested, no later then when he turned 16 in 1973 (3rd paragraph of the Intro). --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Good point, Francis. The criticism is mostly from the 70's and early 80's. That paragraph can be easily fixed, I guess. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I know, the version I defend didn't have that flaw. So I conclude you agree I revert to that version. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Do you mean of the lead? Can you place a diff here? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Your last edit to the article is the diff that removed it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
My last edit was restoring the compromise version by David D.. You can add this to an appropriate place of the lead, if that will help: Rawat attracted controversy for what has been considered a lack of intellectual content in his teachings, and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Done, but note that ref codes without content can only be used if a ref with a same name and with content is on the page, see Misplaced Pages:Footnotes. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I checked all the refs are correct as these are used already elsewhere. See the ref section, which has no errors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
No, I checked them: the last two didn't work: other references with the same name and no content depended on them to have content. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
OK. I will wikignome these and add provide the refs here so that these can be added. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Here: ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I *had* already filled them with content on the Prem Rawat article (the content that was there in the sentence I had to remove in order not to double content in the lead). I'm not the one leaving behind me semi-disabled references. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
With regards to *ref 7 - "Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers." - bolding added) - this quote comes from a chapter titled "Divine Light Mission" ] so it is pre 1983. So 4 out of 5 references are pre 1983 (Goring being unknown). Making it's placement the "His teachings became more universal, and less Indian, and in the early 1980s" sentence inappropriate. Since we are already talking about the media attention, it is, for the sake of logic and readability appropriate to place it there.Momento (talk) 08:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
No, you're back to place/time incoherencies with your reverts:

In June 1971, Rawat left India to speak in London, Paris, Heidelberg and Los Angeles, where he was the subject of substantial media attention and criticized by some for what was considered a lack of intellectual content in his teachings and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle. Tens of thousands were immediately attracted to his message, largely from the hippie culture. Rawat made his home in the U.S. and began touring and teaching world wide. When he turned 16, Rawat became an emancipated minor and was able to take a more active role in guiding the movement. (bolding added)

Rawat turned 16 in 1973. The sentence before that, so before turning 16, "Rawat made his home in the U.S. and began touring ". Before making his home in the U.S. and the ensuing touring, "Tens of thousands were immediately attracted to his message". Before that (still according to the timeline now proposed in the intro of the article) he visited four cities outside India, "where he was criticised ". So, the text of the intro still implies that criticism is something happening between June 1971 and Rawat's birthday in 1973, and happend in four cities (none of them in India, nor in the Netherlands - which is also incoherent with the references).
As I said, "non-encyclopedia-worthy type of embellishment" - the criticism extended at least (!) from the mid seventies to the mid eighties, and originated in places not limited to "London, Paris, Heidelberg and Los Angeles" — that's what you have references for here, not for the 1971-1973 period nor for the criticism exclusively originating in the four mentioned cities. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Pretty much all the "substantial media attention" Rawat attracted when he arrived in the west was criticism. The media made fun of him for giving stupid examples, being fat and liking Baskin & Robbins ice cream. The criticism of the "lack of intellectual content in his teachings and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle" began the day he was picked up at London airport in a flower decked Rolls Royce in June 1971. That's why the lede should structured the way I proposed.Momento (talk) 11:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
"Pretty much all the "substantial media attention" Rawat attracted when he arrived in the west was criticism."
"The media made fun of him for giving stupid examples, being fat and liking Baskin & Robbins ice cream."
"The criticism of the "lack of intellectual content in his teachings and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle" began the day he was picked up at London airport in a flower decked Rolls Royce in June 1971."
Even if all that is true, the criticism didn't stop there, did it? The references used in the article try to give a wider scope (both in time and in place), than just some superficialities when he first arrived in the west. So, it's still incorrect to use more profound references for what in the body of the lead text refers to a relatively short period of superficial criticism. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Which criticism is superficial? The "lack of intellectual content in his teachings" or "leading a sumptuous lifestyle".Momento (talk) 13:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
"being fat and liking Baskin & Robbins ice cream"; "he was picked up at London airport in a flower decked Rolls Royce in June 1971" --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The Lede

The quotes that back the sentence regarding "lack of intellectual content" and "materialistic lifestyle" all come from the 70s. Putting it after events that happened in 2001 make it look like Rawat has been criticized for the last 40 years when this criticism was limited to the 70s. It is important that lede accurately reflects the content of the article, unfortunately some editors have chosen to create a separate section called "Criticism" against Wiki guidelines. When this article is cleaned up, those criticisms and the sources will appear in the "Leaving India" and "Coming of Age" sections where they belong. I have rejigged the lede for greater accuracy and NPOV.Momento (talk) 20:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, no, you're repeating arguments that have been debunked above. And again, don't start a new talk page section about something that's discussed elsewhere, and even was an agreement (#Thousands of edits lost: "Thus, should include the main points of the criticism.", last sentence, nobody found anything unreasonable about that; and then a few sections lower, #Concern regarding place/time incoherence of references which debunked the argument entirely, nobody objecting) --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Could the sentence be moved to after Rawat became an emancipated minor and was able to take a more active role in guiding the movement. as a suitable compromise? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I think I put it there for some time, until someone else moved it again to the last sentence of the section. So I propose to keep it there (last sentence of the lead, separate paragraph) until a new consensus where to put it (if any) emerges here on talk. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Is it about time that editors here start looking for some common ground and developing consensus by finding a compromise that all can live with, instead of reverting each other endlessly. I would hope that both Francis and Momento would agree with me on this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Or is it time to request a full protection? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The sentence that starts In June 1971, Rawat left India could benefit by saying that he was 13 years old at the time. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You haven't debunked any arguments Francis, you've just agreed with your own. If the sentence is moved from the chronologically correct 70s section of the lede, it should have "in the 70s". Suit yourself.Momento (talk) 20:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Resuming

The criticism sentence of the intro currently reads

Rawat was criticized in the 1970s for lack of intellectual content in his teachings, and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle.

I bolded the part I object to, while it is not covered by the sources:

  • ref is a 1982 book, it nowhere limits the criticism to the 1970s.
  • ref is a 2003 book, I've not seen anyone who could explain how it is derived from this book this criticism is limited to the 1970s
  • ref is also a 2003 book, as far as I can tell deriving from it that the criticism was limited to the 1970s is an interpretation, somewhat OR-ish.

So I propose to remove the qualifier "in the 1970s" from that sentence, it is nowhere needed, while these criticisms were (as is also apparent from other sources) not something that stopped after the 70s. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

There is more wrong with the sentence.

  • ref Schabel writes - "Maharaj Ji's charismatic leadership is very effective, even if comparatively shallow." is hardly a "criticism".
  • ref Barret's comment that "The Divine Light movement used to be criticized for the devotion given to Maharaji, who was thought to live a life of luxury on the donations of his followers". Clearly date it to 70s possibly early 80s and contain "weasel words".
  • ref Hunt's comment " Over time,' critics have focused on' what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers. However, deliberately keeping a low profile has meant that the movement has generally managed to escape the gaze of publicity that surrounds other NRMs."
Barret's and Hunt's comments contain enough "Weasel words" to be dismissed outright. Please read ] . Schnabel's "criticism" hardly merits a place in the article let alone the lede.
I can see the whole sentence being removed.Momento (talk) 21:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

You were adamant the article was conforming to NPOV, with the sentence (and its references) included in the lead section the way it is , so I'm rejecting your argumentation above as "too weasely". --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:42, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Mishler quote (doesn't really belong to the talk page section on the criticism phrase in the lead of the article)

This may be slightly off-topic, but I can't find any mention of Robert Mishler in this or any of the related articles. He is a former president of the DLM and made critical comments about the subject. Is there a reason he's not mentioned? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it was deleted because Momento found mentioning Mishler's criticism unencyclopedic. I disagreed among others because Mishler's criticism was mentioned in Melton's encyclopedia' of cults. Andries (talk) 18:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I mention him because I was just reading an L.A. Times article from 1979 that quotes him extensively. The Times is a reliable source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

This Mishler?

Some of the criticism leveled at Prem Rawat derives from Bob Mishler, a former president of DLM, and Robert Hand after they parted ways with Prem Rawat in the 1970s. According to Melton in a 1986 article, Mishler's complaints — that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill and that money was increasingly diverted to Maharaji's personal use — found little support and did not affect the progress of the Mission.

Can this go in the article? Does it need tweaking? If suitable for the article: where to put it? --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

done. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Added subsection title (talk page organisation) --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

External links section...

I've grouped all EL discussions --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Are all those links official websites of Prem Rawat as stated? Most appear to be independent. David D. (Talk) 20:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the definition of "official" is but they are operated by people or organizations that have permission to use Rawat's speeches.Momento (talk) 20:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
But not run by him. Maybe that sub title is not really required? It seems to be a hold over from when there was another section of links. David D. (Talk) 21:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I think you're right.Momento (talk) 22:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

... contain links that are in contradiction with Misplaced Pages:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Would you mind explaining exactly which prong the links are in contradiction with? I don't see any contradiction with the stated guidelines. Simply claiming that the links are in contradiction with Misplaced Pages Policy is not adequate. Onefinalstep (talk) 20:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Would you mind explaining why you are continually deleting my external link submission?

On the External Links page of Misplaced Pages under the subsection “Links to be Considered” of section “What to Link” you will find that “sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources” are permissible.

Moreover, the sites I am attempting to link to, which Momento continues to arbitrarily delete (have you sent him a warning yet jossi?), can arguably be said to be reliable sources in their own right. The two sites have documentation on many of their claims, and hold themselves out for contact by the users of the sites. Under the section of “reliable sources” Misplaced Pages states that “Websites and publications of political parties, religious groups, anti-religious groups, or any other partisan group, may exhibit bias and should be treated with caution.” However … the section goes on to state that “Neither political affiliation nor religious belief stated in these sources are in themselves a reason not to use them, as these websites can be used to present the viewpoints of these groups, if properly attributed. Such sources should be presented alongside references from other sources in order to maintain a neutral point of view.”

So first, it is debatable whether or not the sites are reliable. I say they most certainly are. Unless there is a valid argument from Momento to the contrary, why should they be omitted? Secondly, even if I am wrong about their reliability based on “verifiability” of the facts they present (which I contest), they should still be considered “reliable sources” by the definition of the Misplaced Pages guidelines I quoted above due to their value in presenting viewpoints and criticisms of the subject at hand, especially due to the religious nature of the subject. Onefinalstep (talk) 22:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, let's see: it's a guideline, not a policy, and it contains the words normally and should. It's also not very clear. I have no idea what the first sentence, Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article. means.
In any case, the person who dinged the link should explain why, preferrably without c&p'ing a link to a guideline. After all, if the link did violate the guideline, it'd be nice to know why so the "error" isn't repeated. •Jim62sch• 00:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The external links to the other sites have been deleted, simply because they do not follow Misplaced Pages BLP policy, which is quite clear: We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space. Whilst I have rarely agreed with Andries in the past, this item is not a matter of argument, the links simply violate the criteria that Misplaced Pages requires. Armeisen (talk) 07:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onefinalstep (talk • contribs)

The sites are not poorly sourced. I guess everyone needs to make their own judgment on that though. Onefinalstep (talk) 06:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation, although it should have come from someone else. •Jim62sch• 01:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

By website

Prem Rawat's official website
'Maharaji', Prem Rawat's personal website. Available in 16 languages.
Voice of Maharaji
Excerpts from recent addresses
Ex-premie.org
Ex-Premie.org website of former followers who claim his movement is a cult Website of ex-followers of Prem Rawat
  • I'd keep that one in the article. Contains a broad scope of information on Prem Rawat. I'd limit the sentence describing this website to "website of ex-followers of Prem Rawat". The "cult claim" is too detaillistic: it is treated on one of the pages linked from the main page of that site, but that's a too limited angle on that website for Misplaced Pages's description imho. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • This is fine. The link is appropriate because it leads to a site which is maintained by former followers who obviously have some serious issues with the organization. They have loads of sources for their claim on the site, and they hold themselves out for contact. I can't comprehend why people are trying to argue this is not relevant. Onefinalstep (talk) 23:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Fails WP:BLP: Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link. . Fails Misplaced Pages:EL#In_biographies_of_living_people: In biographies of living people, material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all, either as sources or via external links. External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and in full compliance with Misplaced Pages official policies. Also: Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority. not to be linked. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Again, there is no BLP problem: the material of this website isn't used in the article; I don't know how the weasely wording confounding "material used" and "external links (without using the material)" came in WP:EL, but again, taken literally there is no problem. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Remains to be demonstrated that Ex-premie.org is either a "questionable source" (why/how would it be?); or a "source of dubious value" (why/how would it be?); or "not high quality" (please demonstrate quality); or "not in full compliance with Misplaced Pages official policies" (which is again weasely wording - but again, demonstrate it); or that it is a "blog or personal web page" (also, to be demonstrated) --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
      • WE don't need consensus, BLP policy is absolutely explicit - "In biographies of living people, material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all, either as sources or via external links. External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and in full compliance with Misplaced Pages official policies". The links to the anti-Rawat sites must go. The EPO site accuses Rawat of aiding a paedophile, adultery, greed etc. and is full of OR from questionable sources. Prem Rawat Critique calls Rawat a liar, a fraud and claims that Rawat has a doctrine of egomania, it is full of OR from questionable sources. Does anyone have an argument why this article should be exempt from conforming with perfectly clear BLP policy?Momento (talk) 23:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Prem-Rawat-critique.org
Prem Rawat Critique Website detailing the mass of criticism leveled against Prem Rawat and his following from various sources Website that seeks to provide critique of Prem Rawat and his various organisations
  • I'd keep that one in too. Also contains a broad scope of information on Prem Rawat. But I'd turn down the language with which the site is announced: "mass of criticism" is a view that we do not need to underline. "Website that seeks to provide critique of Prem Rawat and his various organisations" would do better I think. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I think you are right here too. Perhaps the "mass of criticism" is too much (although I think it's accurate). Onefinalstep (talk) 23:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Fails WP:BLP: Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link. . Fails Misplaced Pages:EL#In_biographies_of_living_people: In biographies of living people, material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all, either as sources or via external links. External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and in full compliance with Misplaced Pages official policies. Also: Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority. not to be linked. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Again, there is no BLP problem: the material of this website isn't used in the article; I don't know how the weasely wording confounding "material used" and "external links (without using the material)" came in WP:EL, but again, taken literally there is no problem. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Remains to be demonstrated that Ex-premie.org is either a "questionable source" (why/how would it be?); or a "source of dubious value" (why/how would it be?); or "not high quality" (please demonstrate quality); or "not in full compliance with Misplaced Pages official policies" (which is again weasely wording - but again, demonstrate it); or that it is a "blog or personal web page" (also, to be demonstrated) --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
      • WE don't need consensus, BLP policy is absolutely explicit - "In biographies of living people, material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all, either as sources or via external links. External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and in full compliance with Misplaced Pages official policies". The links to the anti-Rawat sites must go. The EPO site accuses Rawat of aiding a paedophile, adultery, greed etc. and is full of OR from questionable sources. Prem Rawat Critique calls Rawat a liar, a fraud and claims that Rawat has a doctrine of egomania, it is full of OR from questionable sources. Does anyone have an argument why this article should be exempt from conforming with perfectly clear BLP policy?Momento (talk) 23:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The Register article
'Lord of the Universe' Article detailing about Prem and the controversy of conflict of interest in Misplaced Pages.
prem-rawat-maharaji.info
Prem Rawat aka Maharaji Prem Rawat aka Maharaji Information Resource
  • Would like to know whether others would think this a useful resource. It appears as such to me. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
    • This site violates BLP. The policy is absolutely explicit - "In biographies of living people, material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all, either as sources or via external links. External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and in full compliance with Misplaced Pages official policies". This site is an derogatory and uses unreliable OR to defame Rawat. Does anyone have an argument why this article should be exempt from conforming with perfectly clear BLP policy? I'm removing it immediately.Momento (talk) 00:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Nonsense, Momento. The statement "if derogatory, should not be used" applies to "questionable sources or sources of dubious value," and we aren't talking about any questionable sources or sources of dubious value. I've been on a few pages there, today, as a result of this discussion, and I can't find anything that isn't true. If it's true, it isn't defamatory. The site requests anyone finding inaccurate material to notify them so that it can be removed. What inaccuracies have you warned them about, Momento? This is really a question of criticism of a flawed product or service by dissatisfied consumers. There have been serious quality control issues in the past. Different "mahatmas" gave different instructions. After ten months of dedicated practice, I assure you that the techniques, as presented to me, are harmful both by themselves and because they distract aspirants from other "meditation" techniques which actually do have more value for most people, but I'm not proposing to list myself as an expert for the article -- just for this discussion. This has nothing to do with BLP. There are hundreds of practices labeled "meditation," many of them cataloged in The Book of Secrets by Rajneesh, some of which have specific benefits in specific situations. Potential consumers have a right to be warned about the dangers of Rawatism. Such a warning is extremely valuable to people seeking beneficial practices. It keeps them from reinventing the wheel. Wowest (talk) 07:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
        • The home page of this website says:

          The authors of this website have gone to great efforts to create an objective and broad-ranging account of Prem Rawat and his movement. It is not our intention to attack him or his followers, or in any way restrict their right of religious freedom. Rather these pages provide a point of reference for both journalists and those who are interested in the activities and philosophy of Mr. Rawat and the organizations that support and promote him.

          Is any of this demonstrably wrong? If so, please: "The authors welcome corrections to any inaccuracies that may have inadvertently been applied to the website's content", there's contact information available on the website, to send such proposed corrections to them. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
          • The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. The vast majority of this site is self published OR that isn't verifiable. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. Material that is self-published, whether on paper or online, is generally not regarded as reliable. It is unacceptable in terms of OR, Verifiability and BLP. And it is alsoderogatory. I'll let Msalt remove it, he seems to know what he's doing.Momento (talk) 08:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
              • Thanks for the compliment! I haven't had time to look at it, and I need some sleep. Bsides, it looks like you deleted it already. But I do want to mention something about original research, Momento. You've criticized a couple of websites for having OR. There's nothing wrong with that; in fact, that's precisely what we look for in our Verifiable sources. The whole point is that WE don't do original research, but rely on strong external sources. They do the OR so we don't have to. Msalt (talk) 10:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
            • On the contrary, your accusation of OR seems quite out of line. I just took a random page of that website: http://www.prem-rawat-maharaji.info/index.php?id=23 After the intro on that page:
              1. 1st paragraph: no references, but general info (which can also be found in the Misplaced Pages Prem Rawat article, Prem Rawat#Childhood)
              2. 2nd paragraph: content referenced to Elan Vital
              3. 3rd paragraph and 4-paragraph quote: referenced to Academic specialist in the 'Rhadasoami tradition' Professor David Lane of California State University.
              4. 1st paragraph after the quote: referenced to former US Divine Light Mission President, Bob Mishler
              5. next paragraph: referenced to Prem Rawat himself; etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
                • I've just remembered, BLP Policy sats : "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space". That means every editor is obliged to remove this link. So I have.Momento (talk) 09:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
                  • And where is your demonstration that this is "questionable", or whatever derogatory statement you're making? --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
                    • Do you really believe that a self-published anonymously written website become a "reliable source" by including a few quotes from real scholars? Find me a "reliable" and "verifiable source" for this derogatory claim "Rawat's right-hand men in the sixteen years between 1971 and 1987 were Bob Mishler and Michael Dettmers both have described him as an 'alcoholic' giving descriptions of carrying him up the stairs unconscious, after a night's heavy drinking at his home. Both detailed Rawat's abusive rages when under the influence of alcohol.".Momento (talk) 10:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
                      • Seems perfectly in line with:

                        Brown, Chip, Parents Versus Cult: Frustration, Kidnapping, Tears; Who Became Kidnappers to Rescue Daughter From Her Guru, The Washington Post, February 15, 1982: " In addition to his ulcer, the Perfect Master who held the secret to peace and spiritual happiness 'had tremendous problems of anxiety which he combatted with alcohol,' Mishler said in a Denver radio interview in February 1979."

                        --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
                    • How about this "Dettmers described a collision between a cyclist and a car being driven by Prem Rawat, the cyclist was killed instantly. By Dettmers account, Prem Rawat left the scene without submitting himself to the normal police enquires that ensued." ].Momento (talk) 11:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
                      • The source was Michael Dettmers. There's no problem linking to a website that is a publisher of something Michael Dettmers said. Afaik Misplaced Pages does not use that bit of information. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Reviewing this website further, I fail to see how or why it's a BLP violation to link to it. Anything contentious appears sourced. It's clearly an indepth, notable, and independent source not under Rawat's control. We are perfectly within our bounds to link to a source like this, that I can see. Lawrence § t/e 15:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, as far as I can see, the site owners remain anonymous: Could I sue the site owners like I could sue a publisher for publishing defamatory information? If the answer to the question is no (and I think it is), then that means the site does not have enough encyclopedic standing to be used as an external link. The reason being that whoever posts the information is not in practice prepared to vouch for its accuracy; if the same information could be found in a printed book, with a named publisher and author, it would be a different matter. -- Jayen466 00:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The website appears DMCA compliant (which includes OCILLA), (, see June 2005 entries on that page) which means you could sue the site owners.

It also appears to vouch for its accuracy (see same page , July 28th, 2005 entry). Sorry, no problem there. And the Internic link mentioned above, also shows adresses and other means to contact the site owners, if you're not satisfied by the e-mail addresses provided by the website itself . Sorry, really, no problem there. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Before this discussion on the Admin Noticeboard was archived ] two independent editors had the following to say about theprem-rawat-maharaji.info link.
I don't know about that second point. Who runs this website? Does it have some form of editorial control? What is its reputation for fact-checking? Has it been quoted in known reliable sources? These questions should have been, to quote, asked and answered by now. Relata refero (talk) 14:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Relata Refero. There's very little in the way of citation in the pages of that site. While I'm not disputing the information there, the 'interviews' aren't dated or explained, just random information attributed to the persons mentioned. He doesn't state when he talked to them, and some sections are just 'analysis' of the guys' hypocrisy. Until and unless that information's sources becomes transparent, that site's not up to the level of a WP:RS, and does, in fact, come off as slightly vendetta-ish. I'd say it's very bad form to link it, and that the BLP clauses probably ought to be applied. ThuranX (talk) 17:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
So I'm removing it. BLP policy is clear - "The burden of evidence for any edit on Misplaced Pages, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material".Momento (talk) 22:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

W.r.t. Relata refero's and ThuranX's considerations:

  • Who runs this website? — see above: the website is DMCA compliant, the people running it are answering concerns (I gave the link that proves it).
  • Does it have some form of editorial control? – yes, see above and previous question.
  • What is its reputation for fact-checking? – appears OK, see above, I gave the link.
  • Has it been quoted in known reliable sources? – don't know, not a RS requirement (also: circular reasoning: of course this source has been quoted in multiple sources: whether or not these other sources are RS is independent of whether this source is a RS).
  • There's very little in the way of citation in the pages of that site. – rebutted, see above.
  • the 'interviews' aren't dated or explained – not sure whether ThuranX was looking at the same source: didn't see no 'interviews' on the source we're talking about, could you point me to one?
  • random information attributed to the persons mentioned. – cheap thrill, does this need an answer?
  • He doesn't state when he talked to them, – unclear remark.
  • some sections are just 'analysis' of the guys' hypocrisy – still not knowing what you're talking about, "'analysis' of the guys' hypocrisy"?
  • ...the rest of ThuranX's conclusions appear to be based on his/her own original research, and can be waived as such.

Still, no BLP infringement demonstrated. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I continue to be surprised about Francis position on this. By Francis arguments there is no such a thing as an anonymous website. The site is anonymous which does not allow the verification of authorship, there mo editorial control of fact checking that is known of; contains essay-type material nd other non-notable commentary, ; it is unverifiable. Contains material the violates BLP. Basically, exactly the type of site we should not link per Misplaced Pages:External_links#In_biographies_of_living_people. Still no compliance with policy has been demonstrated. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
No idea why you keep linking to places that contain no definition of "questionable sources or sources of dubious value", is it perhaps in order to hide that there is no such requirement about non-anonimity for what Misplaced Pages regards as acceptable sources? If the source contains only content that is not attributed to other sources I'd agree, you'd have point. But in this case as I demonstrated above this website is quite clear of its sources, paragraph by paragraph, sentence by sentence. Also, there is no such thing as "verification of authorship" imposed by WP:V (or any other content policy). Note that this website lists the sources for its content (whether persons or publications), I'm sure in much more detail than Cagan does – what more to ask?
There is editorial control and fact checking, as I demonstrated above. If you're not reading any of it, that's your problem not mine.
"contains essay-type material nd other non-notable commentary" – your OR, again, not worth rebutting. Even if it would contain "essay-type material", what's your problem? Misplaced Pages can (and does amply) use essays (and what looks likes them) as reference material.
"it is unverifiable" – WP:V nowhere speaks that we're in the business of verification of any external source. No OR, remember, and "verifiability, not truth", which *also* means we're not in the business of establishing the truth of external sources. Misplaced Pages's content should be verifiable against external sources. These external sources should be reliable, among several other criteria required from such sources, per Misplaced Pages's guidance. The verifiability of such external sources themselves is however no part of such criteria used by Misplaced Pages: it's simply none or our business.
"Contains material the violates BLP" – no it doesn't. Strictly speaking, that's even nonsense what you're saying there. BLP is an in-Misplaced Pages criterion. The external source itself can neither "adhere" to it nor "violate" it. It uses its own criteria, and that's not for us to decide. What we decide on is whether we link to it or not. In order to link to it, we check against our in-Misplaced Pages criteria whether the source is eligible for such use. And then there's no WP:BLP violation when linking to it.
Note also I don't have to "prove" there's no OR on that website, even with OR on it it can be a perfectly admissable external link. Note that WP:NOR does not even reject primary sources for sourcing content on Misplaced Pages, and even less secondary sources containing OR. As it happens, I've not really seen OR being published by that website, seen the abundant citations of external references on that site. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that we all have eloquently presented their arguments about this, and we have to agree to disagree. The only way to resolve this, would be to seek additional input from non-involved editors, such as the two editors that commented already at WP:ANI via WP:DR. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
It's about content, not eloquence. I know you meant no harm, yet I'm declining the compliment for that reason. If anyone has content to add, please feel free. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, I am not an expert on the policy here. I would be very curious to hear you answer the following question: can a BLP EVER link to a website that criticizes the subject of the article? It looks like you might say no, and Francis clearly says yes, and has detailed why he thinks this website qualifies. If you think it can, could you provide an example of an acceptable but critical website, either for Rawat or for any other living person? I think this would go a long way toward clarifying this issue. Thanks, Msalt (talk) 18:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Sure. You can have a link to a critical site of the subject of the article, with the provisos explained in WP:EL, and WP:BLP namely: (a) links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.; (b) any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research; (c) Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link (questionable sources: See Misplaced Pages:V#Questionable_sources: Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications that express views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, are promotional in nature, or rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves. (See below.) Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources.). For example, see Criticism_of_George_W._Bush#External_links for appropriate ELs in a BLP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
  1. ThuranX did not yet clarify his/her comments, do we still need to wait?
  2. Ad Jossi's,
    • (a): neither a blog nor a personal webpage;
    • (b): not misleading, nor by factually inaccurate material, nor by unverifiable research;
    • (c):
      • fact-checking, appears OK, per above;
      • not widely acknowledged as extremist;
      • not promotional in nature;
      • not relying heavily on rumors;
      • not relying heavily on personal opinions - it does rely less on personal opinion than an average website on a religious or philosophical topic;
      • "Articles about such sources", not applicable to the context. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:39, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
  1. It is a personal web page, of an anonymous non-expert in the field
  2. Misleading and/or unverifiable opinion
  3. No fact checking that can be spoken of
  4. Relays on personal opinion, unsourced to reliably published material
We have covered that many times already, and we have opinions of uninvolved editors supporting these arguments. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:54, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Re. "we have opinions supporting these arguments": Well, "opinions" is all we have, four opposing opinions in total:

  1. Opinions of "uninvolved editors", gathered through forum shopping:
    1. Relata refero's opinion: maybe not even totally "uninvolved" (Relata takes part in several discussions here, from before that WP:ANI opinion). Anyway, Relata's arguments were rebutted by me. If Relata thinks I was inefficient on the rebuttal, s/he's free to explain why.
    2. ThuranX's opinion was based on thoroughly unclear grounds. I asked ThuranX to clarify. Appears clarification is not forthcoming.
  2. Jossi's opinion: (1) flawed, should probably be rejected on COI grounds: I asked Jossi to clarify his situation w.r.t. the websites he doesn't object to be included in the EL section, since it was alleged he was their webmaster. No clarification seems to be forthcoming. (2) Jossi's actual arguments: rebutted. All he seems to be keeping to is an opinion in the face of evidence.
  3. Momento's opinion: well, indeed, opinion, no demonstrable policy conflict (as Momento alleged) however, that has been rebutted multiple times.

So, we're at opinions, and, for instance, wikipedia:consensus as a way to deal with opinions. And that page is policy too.

There are several supporting opinions, let's concentrate on these. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

dmoz search query
Prem Rawat, at Open Directory Project
  • I'm not in favour of keeping this one in: of the 17 links listed on that page only four are in English. Of these four, two have been rejected already, and two are under discussion here. Generally, it is to be avoided to link to a website that launches a search query (e.g. we don't link to a search query in Google books by way of external link), it sort of defeats the purpose of writing an encyclopedia. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

General discussion

I would enocurage editors to take the advice of User:Thatcher:

To the extent that prem-rawat-critique analyzes the wikipedia article, it might be useful as a guide for editors looking to improve the article, but it is certainly not a reliable source for use in the article itself. However, no surprises that an anti-Prem web site thinks the article is not negative enough. The next step is for someone to try and fix the articles on wikipedia, consistent with policies on neutral point of view, reliable sources, undue weight, and so forth. Thatcher 12:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, these links violate WP:BLP: Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if contentious, should not be used at all for content about living people, either as sources or via external links If editors believe that these constrains are not acceptable, they should bring these issues to WT:BLP first. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so we know you think the links are questionable sources. Lets have that discussion. But would you concede that assuming they are reliable sources they are not of dubious value? Onefinalstep (talk) 06:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
BLP policy is absolutely explicit - "In biographies of living people, material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all, either as sources or via external links. External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and in full compliance with Misplaced Pages official policies". The links to the anti-Rawat sites must go. The EPO site accuses Rawat of aiding a paedophile, adultery, greed etc. and is full of OR from questionable sources. Prem Rawat Critique calls Rawat a liar, a fraud and claims that Rawat has a doctrine of egomania, it is full of OR from questionable sources. Does anyone have an argument why this article should be exempt from conforming with perfectly clear BLP policy?Momento (talk) 03:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Continued below #External links disputes --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

External links disputes

Links like these:

Keep getting added and deleted. Could editors please use this talk page to discuss which external links should be added or deleted rather than simply edit warring over them? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

As I have written many times on these pages and as I wrote in the edit summary, those links are in direct violation of BLP policy. Please make yourself familiar with BLP policy. It says - "Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if contentious, should not be used at all for content about living people, either as sources or via external links. Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article". Further "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Misplaced Pages:No original research). The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Content may be re-inserted only if it conforms to this policy".

I have pointed out this policy many times.Momento (talk) 23:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see this getting anywhere between Momento and I. I think this needs to be fleshed out in exactly the same way the photo has; namely, by allowing a large number of people to comment on their worth for inclusion. I don't feel like laying out my same tired argument again in yet another external links thread. Jossi, since you know what the hell goes on with these types of disputes, would you mind making a suggestion (unrelated to whether the links should be kept) on how to resolve this? Onefinalstep (talk) 00:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The wording of WP:BLP is quite unambiguous, and editors have already discussed this (see Thatcher's comment above: Talk:Prem_Rawat#Discussion.) If there are still disputes, you may need to pursue dispute resolution ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion, these links are not reliable sources (per WP:RS). However information within them that are sourced from RS', will be suitable -- If it comes from RS'. Just like in any BLP. --Shot info (talk) 00:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
(ec) Onefinalstep: please note that you are in violation of WP:3RR, that states that: The motivation for the three-revert rule is to prevent edit warring. In this spirit the rule does not convey an entitlement to revert three times each day, nor does it endorse reverting as an editing technique. Rather, the rule is an "electric fence". Editors may still be blocked even if they have made three or fewer reverts in a 24 hour period, if their behavior is clearly disruptive. Efforts to game the system, for example by persistently making three reverts each day or three reverts on each of a group of pages, cast an editor in a poor light and may result in blocks.
  1. 05:57, 10 February 2008 (edit summary: "/* External links */")
  2. 23:30, 10 February 2008 (edit summary: "/* External links */")
  3. 16:31, 11 February 2008 (edit summary: "/* External links */")
  4. 00:14, 12 February 2008 (edit summary: "/* External links */")
You may want to consider self-reverting to avoid getting dinged, and pursue dispute resolution instead. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
What about the guy who keeps deleting them with no discussion? I mean, both Momento and I are at odds and are the only ones continually deleting/adding them ... I'll accept some sort of non biased intermediary, but until something is suggested why should I be the one to back down? Onefinalstep (talk) 03:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The 3RR is strange as you are using it anyway. It always is in favor of the first reverter. If I put something up, and momento deletes it, I will naturally reach my three reverts before he does. This is an arbitrary way of deciding if the links should stay up or not while the debate goes on.

Certain people keep saying that the links are to sites that are spam sites, blatant copyright infringements, or "questionable sources". I think we need to have a discussion on what exactly "questionable sources" means for ELs. The sites I want on the links section are not "questionable sources." They would be questionable sources if they held themselves out as something they are not. But the sites are very clear in what they are. If the links were to a page that purported to be an official page of Prem Rawat, and it was dubious that it in fact was an "official" page, then yes I would say this is a "questionable source." But these pretty well organized and run websites which don't seem unreliable. I might not use them as source material in an article, but only because they are secondary sources. But they do have their own documentation on their sites. The sites are on the same level of dubiousness as Misplaced Pages. Onefinalstep (talk) 03:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


A) External links are not the same as reliable sources. B) WP:BLP says that external links in biographies must comply with WP:EL. WP:EL says that we may not link to copyright violations or to spam sites. It makes further suggestions on which sites should not be linked, but it does not ban linking to them. If a compelling case can be made for linking to the sites then BLP does not prohibit them. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Will, BLP also says: Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if contentious, should not be used at all for content about living people, either as sources or via external links. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Please follow the wikilink in that text, for more info about what questionable sources are. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
(ecx2, chill out Jossi) Ah yes, apologies, I thought the links were being used as references, rather than just as a true "EL", however (as Jossi points out) BLP applies in BLP. Moral is, need a better link :-) --Shot info (talk) 00:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
That sentence from WP:BLP isn't clear. We're not using these links as a source, so they aren't "questionable sources". We aren't adding any information from them to the article, so I'm not sure that the sentence from BLP applies. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
It is clear to me, Will. The wording speaks to the core of this debate. Maybe you want to take this to WT:BLP if not clear? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Back onto the merits of the particular ELs, given the general low quality of the existing ELs (which seem to just link to equally dubious quality ELs), I am of the opinion that a review of all the ELs is required. Because if some of the existing ELs stay, then those proposed have some validity - using "dubious" as a quality measure. Shot info (talk) 00:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
That is a good idea. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
This element of the WP:BLP appears to have been under frequent, and even recent, debate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
In any case, could proponents of the links stop re-adding them until there's a consensus? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I've added the issue to the BLP noticeboard: Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#External links on Prem Rawat. Hopefully, outside comment will help resolve the issue. Vassyana (talk) 05:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Here are the current links, as of this moment:

Of these, only the first appears to be the subject's official site. Some of the others are covered in articles on those specific topics (TPRF and Techniques of Knowledge). Others appear to be anonymous fan sites and blogs. In order to minimze the edit warring over external links, I propose that we delete all but the first one. Are there any reasons why we have to keep the rest of them? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have already proposed pairing down the EL section, but note that none of the sites are fansites. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
If they're not Prem Rawat's official sites then what are they? Who owns and runs the websites? If they belong to Elan Vital then they should be in the Elan Vital article (and maybe there already). I assumed that they are run by followers/students/practitioners, but if they are also owned by Rawat then we should say so. If they're not we should remove them. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


Will, thanks for starting yet a third (or fourth?) concurrent talk page section about the same links.

As far as I'm concerned the following should be kept:

  • Ex-Premie.org website of former followers who claim his movement is destructive
  • Prem Rawat Critique Website detailing criticism leveled against Prem Rawat and his following from various sources
    • Prem Rawat Critique Website that seeks to provide critique of Prem Rawat and his various organisations

...for reasons I gave above: #External links section... --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

And as far as I am concerned these should not be kept: Misplaced Pages:BLP#External_links and Misplaced Pages:BLP#Reliable_sources: Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
That sentence is bad English. Sorry. "Material ... solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value ... should not be used ..." I understand. That means, don't put that material in the article. "Material ... solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value ... should not be used ... as an external link" is some sort of gibberish. An external link does not imply one uses the material. No material that is solely available via ex-premie.org or prem-rawat-critique.org is used. If the quoted sentence of that policy page isn't clear we're not required to second-guess about its "true" meaning, that would be OR.
Linking to many websites implies linking to a website that may have a blog, or a forum where people that are not "experts" in the discussed domain may take part. None of these links are RSs. Scott Adams' Blog (where anyone can post a reply, and which can contain some inane critique of Scott Adams) is linked from the external links section of the Scott Adams article. There is no BLP issue. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The sentence reads quite clearly to me, Francis. I guess that we will have to agree to disagree, and request additional feedback from other editors. There is a thread at WP:BLP/N about this already. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
And the Dilbert blog, is a blog by the author, and that is why is permissible per WP:EL. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Re. "the Dilbert blog, is a blog by the author": no, more than 90% of that website are clueless rants, not by Scott Adams (and even less by Dilbert) --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Some of the "pro" sites have the appearance of blogs or self-published sites. In particular, http://www.voiceofmaharaji.info/ is formatted like a blog and has no ownership or authorship information that I can find. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
That site, has a copyright message at the bottom right (© The Prem Rawat Foundation). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't show up on my screen, but I'll take your word for it. Since we have an article about the Foundation, that link should be in that article. Prem Rawat doesn't own or even sit on the board of the Foundation so it appears to be an entirely independent entity. Who do the other websited belong to? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
It is there ... just scroll all the way to the bottom, on the right sidebar. The Prem Rawat Foundation carries his name, and perform activities related to Prem Rawat under his auspices. Their 2006 audited annual report says Activities performed by the Foundation which promote and disseminate the speeches, writings, music, and art of Prem Rawat and support public forums and humanitarian initiatives. , so that may be grounds for inclusion. The other sites have information about their owners, you can check these if you want. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what formal relationship exists between Rawat and the Foundation, if any. "Auspices" just means "kindly endorsement". Since we have an article on the TPRF why do we need to duplicate them here? Regarding the other sites, what do they add to this article and are they all of "high quality"? Gettig back to my proposal, I think we'd have more peace if we restricted the links to just the one official site. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I think I have commented on this issue just enough to make my point. I will leave this to others to comment as well. External links should be made available in accordance to Misplaced Pages:EL#What_should_be_linked and WP:BLP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Do you object ot removing all the sites except for the one official site of Prem Rawat? Does anyone else want to defend individual sites? If not then, for the future stability of this article, I think it'd be best to delete them. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
You could try it, Will, and see if it sticks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd prefer to get an explicit consensus first, but since you don't object and no one else does either I could take that as an implicit consensus. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
What's with http://contactinfo.net? This article isn't about the Elan Vital movement, so contacts among EV members appear off topic. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I do not think that site belongs to the "Elan Vital movement", but I agree that it is not needed here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:26, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm for keeping the link to his personal site only, removing all others. This article is about Prem Rawat and is well-referenced. With an article of this quality, the external links section should include his official site, links to articles that could be used in the future as sources (ie they meet WP:RS, are on-topic, and provide unique information not already covered), and links to other media that meet the very highest quality criteria (links to video, audio, etc that record notable events, etc). --Ronz (talk) 23:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Since there has been no opposition, and some support, for deleting the additinal links I've gone ahead and done so. I hope that editors on all sides of this issue will find this to be an acceptable compromise and not edit war any more over them. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

No consensus to remove, sorry. The only one I'd tentatively allow to have removed is the contactinfo.net, it's more about the organisation than about the person. I was waiting till I could see any logic connecting to actual Misplaced Pages policies that would justify such removals. I don't see any in what Will, Jossi and others explained here. Also my vocal opposition was simply ignored in commentaries provided by Will, Jossi and others. It's not because you ignore it, that it isn't there. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages policy that I was involing was "consensus". In other words, we've got to find something we can all agree on. The external links section has been a battleground. As a compromise I suggested removing virtually all links. Now that youu've taken it on yourself to restore them you'r assuming responsibility for defending their presence. Please say what info they contain that we don't have in this article already. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Re. "please defend the addition of the links" - I did, above, I gave the link to the section where I did. For those external links not mentioned there, additionaly, I think we should have 5 to 10 external links, to the *best* available resources on Prem Rawat, where *best* means, not discriminating between links to websites that contain criticism or not. The guiding principle is rather: can you find useful information on Prem Rawat on the website.
Re. "The external links section has been a battleground." - I'm not impressed by those trying to make it a battleground. If you think the behaviour of those trying to make it into a battleground is unacceptable, e.g. RfC can be tried, otherwise, take to ArbCom, if other means to come to an agreement have been exhausted.
Re. "As a compromise I suggested ..." - I really cannot see how this is a "compromise", and even less, how this could be an acceptable compromise, in view of WP:NPOV.
Re. "Please say what info they contain that we don't have in this article already." - For example, sources listed at http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/press_room.htm would on average count as RSses in Misplaced Pages, they contain information not yet in the article; http://www.voiceofmaharaji.info/ contains (at least, but there is more) the look and feel of the message Prem Rawat wants to spread, something that's hardly possible to capture in a tertiary source like Misplaced Pages (at least for copyright reasons). --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Here are two that seem particularly unnecessary:

This site is already linked from the article as a ciation, so there's no need to link it again the extrnal links section, plus we have multiple internal links pointing to a whole article on the topic.

This is just a subpage of the "Maharaji.net" offical site. As a side note, we also include an external link to it in the text which is frowned upon in WP:EL. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I looking at the reverts in this section, it is obvious that there is no consensus forming about what to include and what to exclude. Unless we can find a suitable compromise that we can all live with, we will need to pursue dispute resolution, such as WP:MEDIATION ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


WE don't need consensus, BLP policy is absolutely explicit - "In biographies of living people, material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all, either as sources or via external links. External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and in full compliance with Misplaced Pages official policies". The links to the anti-Rawat sites must go. The EPO site accuses Rawat of aiding a paedophile, adultery, greed etc. and is full of OR from questionable sources. Prem Rawat Critique calls Rawat a liar, a fraud and claims that Rawat has a doctrine of egomania, it is full of OR from questionable sources. Does anyone have an argument why this article should be exempt from conforming with perfectly clear BLP policy?Momento (talk) 07:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I have read the discussion and I agree that some Websites have to be deleted. Janice Rowe (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree. I find it extraordinary that the is any doubt about the unsuitability of the anti-Rawat websites.Momento (talk) 11:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep Prem Rawat Critique and Ex-Premie.org . With the edit war going on the need for them is greater as critique tend to get mutated into oblivion by some follower of Prem Rawat. Look at Reverend_Moon for another BLP with links to websites of critics. Epiteo (talk) 01:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I've revived the discussion by website, above #By website --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I see no rebuttal to my assertion above that
Should be deleted. Therefore I'll assume that no one disagrees. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I also see no rebuttal to my assertion above about Ex-Premie.org & Prem Rawat Critique, Should be deleted. Therefore I'll assume that no one disagrees.Momento (talk) 23:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
No, there's been substantial discussion of those links and it would not be appropriate to say that there's any consensus, implicit or explicit, regarding them. Also, I notice that some user(s) is relying on a shifting IP to continue deleting the links in what appears to be an attempt to circumvent 3RR. If it continues I'll ask for the page to be semi-protected, and possibly also ask for a checkuser to see of it's being done by a registered user. It's very disruptive to edit war. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't need consensus Will Beback. As an admin you should be familiar with BLP policy. And in the case of BLP, it says "The burden of evidence for any edit on Misplaced Pages, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material". As yet no one has produced an argument why this article should be exempt from Misplaced Pages policy. In the meantime this article "must be written conservatively". I've have deleted the links in accordance with "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space."Momento (talk) 23:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Which is it? You say above that you're going to delete because no one disgrees (which is certainly incorrect), then you say it doesn't matter if they disagree or not. Is it you who are deleting the links as an unregistered IP? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
In fact, Will Beback, I didn't say I am "going to delete because no one disagrees", I wrote "Should be deleted". Please do not puts words into my mouth. As an admin you have a responsibility to follow Misplaced Pages policy.Momento (talk) 00:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the big difference is between what I wrote and what you wrote, or why it matters. I suggest you work towards resolution rather than picking fights. It's the responsibility of every user to follow Misplaced Pages policy. You haven't answered my question - are you the user who has been deleting the links while logged out? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
First you incorrectly stated that I said that I was "going to delete" the link, when in fact I was making the same comment as you, that the link "should be deleted". And now you accuse me of picking fights because I object to your misrepresentation. And I'm not deleting the links as an unregistered IP?Momento (talk) 00:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, so you wrote that they "should be" deleted, then you deleted them. I said you wrote that you were going to delete them. Why are you picking a fight over that negligible "misrepresentation"? How does this bring us closer to resolution on this topic? I'm glad you're not the editor who's intentionally hiding his or her identity to delete material. I hope that every editor will act in a straighforward manner and bring their disagreements to talk pages rather than engaging in edit warring. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Do not continue to misrepresent me. I wrote "should be deleted" at 23:22 ] when the link had already been deleted by another editor. And I did not delete the links until after you put them back in at 23:25 ]. Your continual and deliberate misrepresentation of my actions is a personal attack, see ]. Stop it. Do not characterize my correction of your misinformation as "picking a fight", it is an editor's duty to correct false and misleading claims. The link issue is resolved by application of BLP.Momento (talk) 01:10, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's continue the discussion of links to the critical websites under #By website above. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Mediation

As this discussion has not led to a suitable compromise, I think that it is timely to seriously consider WP:MEDIATION, as the next step in dispute resolution. We could add the EL dispute, the Cagan book dispute and other items about which we have been unable to find common ground. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)you do not participate,

I suggest that mediation is appropriate on this matter. I also suggest that it would be best if it were limited to people who are actively editing the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I actually was not interested in participating in the mediation, Will. I was merely making that suggestion. One concern with mediation is that some of the disputes revolve around to what several editors believe are violation of policies, and mediation may not be able to help with that. But it is a necessary step, I think, and it may help. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 08:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Being new here, I can't tell if this is actually being mediated or not (or in some other sort of dispute resolution). Would someone please do the favor of emailing me or posting on my User Talk page is this is opened up in one of these forums? Thank you kindly. Msalt (talk) 19:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry about it. If mediation is opened, you will be informed as an active editor. You can read about the process at WP:MEDIATION ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Unsupported claims and Lack of Good Faith

≈ jossi ≈ has contacted me via wikipedia email, expressing the view that I am the owner or otherwise associated with one of the sites in question in this section. I have answered ≈ jossi ≈ publicly because I consider his claims to be fundamentally lacking in Good Faith WP:GF. For the record there is a single article authored by me about the writings of one academic who has written about Rawat on the particular website that is of concern to ≈ jossi ≈. I have posted my reply at User_talk:Jossi and copied at User:Nik_Wright2 --Nik Wright2 (talk) 16:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, could you clarify your involvement in or relation (if any) to the websites listed in the "external links" section of the Prem Rawat article and/or under discussion here and/or subject to reverting in the article? Tx. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

External links

I just looked at the last of the three external links and found it to contain anonymous allegations of illegality and immorality against the subject of this article and against other people. Links should be of the same encyclopedic standard as the Misplaced Pages mainspace articles. This link is not acceptable. Please discuss its removal. Rumiton (talk) 11:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Please stop creating new talk page sections about topics that *are* currently being discussed on this talk page. I already complained about this habit of someone starting a new talk page section when the person doesn't like the outcome of a previous, still active, one (#Talk page discipline). This is yet another example of the same.
See above...
...for the ongoing discussions on the "external links" topic. Please make sure you read what is on this page before writing the same for the nth time. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Having one negative and only two positive links is a typical case of false balance. If at all a critical site has to be included, it should be straight cognizable that it represents a contentious small minority view, even if it is somewhat virtually inflated. Otherwise a lot more positive links should be provided.--Rainer P. (talk) 11:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
The balance doesn't strike me as unfair. On the other hand your "it represents a contentious small minority view" appears as some sort of OR to me. Where did you get that information? --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Your claim itself would be OR. We can certainly include a critical link about a public media figure. It is no BLP violation. Lawrence § t/e 14:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not against having critical links, as long as BLP is respected. I objected to false balance. Active detractors number presumably less than 100, while there are 100,000s of happy active students. The fact of controversy should be mentioned, but then it is not such a central issue. It is conditional, like the shadow of an object, which can easily be longer than the object itself, depending on how low the lighting beam is set. In my understanding WP should be ambitious to discriminate and not give the conditional undue weight, but primarily aspire to inform on the unconditional, and leave more ephemeral noises to the press. I also believe BTW, that if you exposed Encyclopedia Britannica or any other encyclopedia to acclamation processes like WP does, they might lose a lot of their dignity.--Rainer P. (talk) 09:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Critical links of public figures may be welcome, but not those that carry defaming statements. Why?, because it Fails WP:BLP: Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link. . Fails Misplaced Pages:EL#In_biographies_of_living_people: In biographies of living people, material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all, either as sources or via external links. External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and in full compliance with Misplaced Pages official policies. Also: Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority. not to be linked. If you have a need to change the policy and established guidelines on the subject, do so at WT:BLP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
As explained again, there are no unsourced defaming statements. What defaming statements are you referring to? Please provide a specific example. Lawrence § t/e 15:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Lawrence, you seem to have a misunderstanding about what sources are acceptable in a Misplaced Pages article about a living person. BLP Policy is explicit "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it will violate the No original research and Verifiability policies, and could lead to libel claims. Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link." The sites being discussed to don't provide reliable third-party sources, they rely on OR. Momento (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I will not repeat such allegations in talk page, as that would also be in violation of WP:BLP. Do you have email enabled? I can email you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
And your question does not address the lack of compliance with content policies. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 15:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
E-mail is enabled. What evidence is there that this is a personal site? Also, did you see the section http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Prem_Rawat#By_website that talks about this site? Are those your concerns? My primary concern is that this article is imbalanced still, and too many people with known or demonstrated bias to the cult/sect have undue control of influence here. That will be trimmed back. Lawrence § t/e 15:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I have emailed you. Editors have been working to improve the article, and progress is being made. And what is new?, all editors have biases, but that does not stop us from wanting a good article, and influence edits in that direction. No different than editing Homeopathy, or any other subject about which there are strong POVs at play. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I agree. I'm just of the opinion that strong POVs need to forcibly placed in check, even if those with the POVs don't like it. Neutrality isn't something to negotiate on with POV pushing. POV pushers or strong POVs need to take a shot in the ideological mouth when they push too hard, and pushed to the side by the community whenever they come up, or else they'll end up with undue authority. Neutrality always comes before personal stakes, POVs, or wishes of any one of us. If some people get upset about that like on the homeopathy mess, or some of the editors here... c'est la vie. We're here to suck at the neutrality tit, not the tit of junk science or Prem Rawat. That's why I try to never touch articles I may be conflicted in, such as Judaism. I'll reply to your email on the specific points. Lawrence § t/e 15:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I am a Jew, and I have no problems editing articles on Judaism. I lived in Israel for many years, saw combat there as a soldier, and I have no problems in editing articles about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Yes, we all have POVs, and yes, we can still put NPOV, V, BLP and NOR, before our opinions. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Lawrence Cohen (talk · contribs) should clarify what he means by articles that an editor may be "conflicted with" - whether this refers to "POV" or rather a conflict of interest? Cirt (talk) 04:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Before this discussion on the Admin Noticeboard was archived ] two independent editors had the following to say about theprem-rawat-maharaji.info link.
I don't know about that second point. Who runs this website? Does it have some form of editorial control? What is its reputation for fact-checking? Has it been quoted in known reliable sources? These questions should have been, to quote, asked and answered by now. Relata refero (talk) 14:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Relata Refero. There's very little in the way of citation in the pages of that site. While I'm not disputing the information there, the 'interviews' aren't dated or explained, just random information attributed to the persons mentioned. He doesn't state when he talked to them, and some sections are just 'analysis' of the guys' hypocrisy. Until and unless that information's sources becomes transparent, that site's not up to the level of a WP:RS, and does, in fact, come off as slightly vendetta-ish. I'd say it's very bad form to link it, and that the BLP clauses probably ought to be applied. ThuranX (talk) 17:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
So I'm removing it. BLP policy is clear - "The burden of evidence for any edit on Misplaced Pages, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material".Momento (talk) 22:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank yoou. I missed that discussion and the comments by uninvolved editors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

"Official"

Francis Schonken wrote: it's what the website says, no need for interpretation, see talk

Excuse me please, Francis, where exactly does it say this? I can't find it.--Rainer P. (talk) 18:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Please see above below #Talk page discipline
The answer to your question is above in #By website. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Francis, if I strain your nerve, but I have only limited time to busy myself with WP, and the discussion has recently made major leaps in the intervals, and it appears easier to communicate directly on a small circumscribed subject than being chased through miles of text - and then not even finding. Maybe my brain is getting a little old, and English is not my first language anyway, so I must ask your patience, not to trifle with me. Again, where does it say - on that website - that it is official? To my perception, the link-tag has been worded arbitrarily, hasn't it?--Rainer P. (talk) 21:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

In the title tag:

  1. Open the page ( http://maharaji.net/index.html );
  2. Click "View → Page source" (or whatever the equivalent in the browser you're using) - you get to see the full HTML of the page. There, in the <HEAD>... section, you'll find

    <TITLE>Maharaji (Official site of Prem Rawat) </TITLE>

    The content of the title tag may be visible in your browser too, depending on which system & browser you're using, and settings. For me, for instance, it shows on the tabs of my Firefox.

Now, If you edit the Prem Rawat article, especially when reverting or deleting, or overwriting what others wrote I have little mercy, you'll have to read the relevant talk page sections. If you have no time, probably the best option would be to look for a less tense article, or wait till this article comes in calmer water. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Aah, ja, thank you very much, I have it now. Still, I prefer not to be pushed out of the process, just for not being an unemployed know-it-all. After all, I'll try to increase modesty; and mercy is certainly something we all need.--Rainer P. (talk) 22:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

You're very much "in the process" by taking note of the talk page, and contributing every once and a while as you do.
I didn't say "no mercy"... yes, at least a "little mercy" is what all of us deserve, toiling over this. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Kissing Prem Rawat's feet

Please do not remove cited material, as happened here, which was then restored here. Discuss here. Lawrence § t/e 19:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The edit summary used by Momento (talk · contribs) - Removed incorrect cite, was also blatantly false. Cirt (talk) 19:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Correct. Given the wide media scrutiny on this article, this article will be closely monitored. Lawrence § t/e 19:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I find it unfortuante that this article is scrutinized only after Misplaced Pages (and somewhat unfairly Jossi) received so much outside criticism. The lesson learnt is, I think, that obscure controversial articles cannot be left alone to fighting factions, because one faction may gain the upper hand and then the article becomes completely unbalanced. Andries (talk) 19:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that scholarly material is more suited to cover this aspect than newspaper articles. Read what Jan van der Lans and Derks wrote
"DLM and Rajneeshism are comparable in that in both, the Indian guru is the central object of devotion. While in the Christian tradition the spiritual master is only an intermediate between the individual and God, standing outside their personal relation, in both these new religious movements the devotee’s relation with the guru is considered identical to his relation with God. The guru is accepted as the manifestation and personification of God. His request for total surrender and complete trust is grounded in his claim of ultimate authority derived from his godliness."
Andries (talk) 17:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, that isn't in line with our general policies on sourcing in general. Time Magazine is certainly a noble and acceptable source. Lawrence § t/e 19:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I admit of course that the Time is an acceptable source, but why use it when a better more scholarly source is readily available? I can see no good reason. Andries (talk) 20:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Please define "better". I'm serious. TIME is a highly respected source. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 01:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
If both sources satisfy WP:RS/WP:V, why not simply use both? Cirt (talk) 20:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. If two sources accomplish the same thing, but one may be more accessible to general readers, I believe it preferable to default to the easier to access one. If both exist, use both. Either way, we will report that his family and followers kiss his feet, as it is a sourced fact. Lawrence § t/e 20:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Well let's hope we can get some more experienced editors as the Time magazines articles cited are from after Rawat came to the West and therefore don't belong in the section Cirt puts them. . Momento (talk) 19:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

That's a house keeping task then, to move it to a different section. Removing valid sourced historical info, as you did, was not correct. I like to think I'm at least an experienced editor by now. What is your definition of experienced? Lawrence § t/e 19:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry. I'll fix the mistake.Momento (talk) 20:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
As you have a pending 3rr report on you for this article, you may want to take a break. Lawrence § t/e 20:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

"don't belong in the section Cirt puts them" - I did not "put" anything there. It was already there. I was merely undoing Momento (talk · contribs)'s removal of cited information, that he had removed with a blatantly false edit summary. Cirt (talk) 19:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It was me that added that information, and I will be adding more sourced information as time permits. I put it in the slightly wrong section, but it can be moved to fit the chronology of Rawat's activities. Removing it outright with a false edit summary was not a wise move. Your reversion was good. Lawrence § t/e 19:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Lawrence Cohen (talk · contribs). It is one thing for Momento (talk · contribs) to continue to be disruptive. It is quite another to remove obviously cited information to a WP:RS/WP:V source. It is quite another to use blatantly false edit summaries while disruptively doing so. Cirt (talk) 19:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Note

This latest series of edits by Momento (talk · contribs) seems to use selective quoting in a weasel wording style, and also removed one of the 2 TIME citations, again. Cirt (talk) 20:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Time used to produce 52 issues a year. Please cite the correct one for the quote. I removed the incorrect one.Momento (talk) 01:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought there must have been another Time magazine intended since the ones cited clearly said 1972 and 1975. Please be more careful.Momento (talk) 20:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Please be consistent Lawrence. You said "That's a house keeping task then, to move it to a different section." and so I moved the cite to the appropriate section. Now you're complaining about it and have put a quote about Rawat in the US into the section of Rawat in India. My head's spinning.Momento (talk) 20:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyone need pic of Rawat smiling while having his feet kissed?

Is it possible for inclusion? --Pax Arcane 02:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you really have one? 216.165.4.30 (talk) 19:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I can quickly provide a link. --Pax Arcane 03:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The "overweight teenaged guru" happily getting his feet kissed. http://www.sott.net/signs/images/darshan.jpg --Pax Arcane 03:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
This sort of stuff is pure goading and unconducive to a consensus approach. Stop it. Rumiton (talk) 13:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
It would be best to find free-use images. Cirt (talk) 03:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed text (Randi)

I removed the following text (refs nowiki'd):

Skeptic James Randi described Rawat as the leader of the cult Divine Light Mission, and as an overweight teenage guru, who was addressed as “Lord of the Universe” by his devotees and who was driven in a Rolls-Royce or driving high-powered motorcycles.<ref>James Randi and Arthur C. Clarke 'An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural' New York: St Martin’s Griffin. ISBN 0-312-15119-5</ref>

James Randi is a debunker, not a journalist, sociologist, religious scholar or other such source. His opinions and claims about religious figures, unless related to debunking claims of observable phenomena, simply have no place in such articles. Thoughts? Vassyana (talk) 21:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting claim you've got there. For your statement to be true spiritualism has to not be a religion. Randi has enough profile that his comments are generaly worthy of note.Geni 23:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
If "enough profile" were sufficient, we'd have Oprah quotes populating thousands of topics. What good reasons are there to use Randi as a source? Vassyana (talk) 23:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
TV shows are difficult to cite. However it fills the time gap between J. Gordon Melton and David V Barret raher nicely.Geni 23:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree. It's like quoting from a book called "Indians who live in the west who I don't like".Momento (talk) 22:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Evidences?Geni 23:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
You're saying that a book published by St. Martin's press and co-authored by Arthur C. Clarke isn't worth citing? Because you label Randi as a "debunker"? Even though he's not expressing an opinion, he's stating what he believes to be facts? If a professional "debunker" can't be trusted to get basic facts right, then presumably nothing that he says should be considered reliable. Is there a particular sentence of a policy or guideline that you're relying on for the basis of this removal?
In the absence of counter-evidence that this statement was clearly erroneous (e.g., a successful lawsuit, an apology, a printed correction), it's certainly (in my opinion) appropriate to leave the quote in - it is absolutely factually correct that Randi said this, and that he is a notable figure, and that this wasn't a casual off-hand remark, it was part of a book that a reputable publisher printed. (Exception to the prior sentence: perhaps Clarke should be added in?) -- John Broughton (♫♫) 00:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The quote should be reinserted, AND the name of the book, because of the reasons above and that Randi's view is echoed by many mainstream media publications. --John Brauns (talk) 00:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
You say "it should" but then choose to editwar rather than discuss. That is not acceptable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, why do you describe my insertion of a reference from a notable respected figure as 'editwar'? The majority of the views in this discussion are for inclusion. It is for the minority to make a case for exclusion, before the entry is removed. --John Brauns (talk) 01:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no concept of "majority" or "minority" in Misplaced Pages. Read WP:CONSENSUS. Also, it may interest you to read WP:BRD, and adopt that behavior. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
  • revert Revision as of 12:54, February 10, 2008
  • revert Revision as of 16:50, February 10, 2008
  • Your initial addition Revision as of 11:48, February 9, 2008
That is what we call in Misplaced Pages, edit warring ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The text was added, edited a few times, deleted, discussed here, and re-added. That's hardly an editwar. --John Brauns (talk) 01:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Please read WP:3RR if you have any doubts about what I am saying. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Methinks WP:EW would be more appropriate. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 01:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I summarized the Randi reference in general terms (Rawat has been described as a fraud -- cite Randi -- and as a cult leader -- in the Criticism section, moving Lawrence's insertion from the "Coming of Age" section. I generally prefer criticism to be "in-line" in the general article rather than in a separate criticism section, but the insertion was such a general blanket statement that it just read poorly. It look like it was air-dropped in. Also the section already has more detail on the same subject -- allegations of brainwashing and coercion. If we're going to have a general criticism section, then that is the place for such statements. I would like to see some further changes to that Criticism section -- notably, the Melton quote minimizing Mishler's significance seems quite POV and WP:SYN -- but I realize a LOT of work has been done on it already. I'd like to read through the subpage collecting different versions of the section, and look for other sources as well, before I jump in. Msalt (talk) 17:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Msalt, I appreciate your intent, but have you noticed that we are now actually putting words into Randi's mouth? Because the Prem Rawat section of the book does not explicitly describe PR as a fraud. And as this page from the same book proves, inclusion in the book does not automatically mean that the relevant person is thereby marked as a fraud. Perhaps we should stick more closely to what Randi actually says, e.g. that he considers the teachings to be "based on sensory illusions" or that in his opinion only "the very naive" could be convinced of their merits. And long-term the whole Randi thing should be thrown out and replaced with something more solid. Cheers, -- Jayen466 00:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Where does Melton refers to PR as a "cult leader"? Have you read the source? As for your "jumping in", can you explain your sudden appearance in this article after a year of inactivity? There are several editors that have suddenly activate dormant accounts, and I find that puzzling. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, I'm sorry that you have been subjected to lots of unfounded personal attacks in all the controversies surrounding this page. That must suck, especially after all the work you've done for Misplaced Pages. However, demanding that I explain my editing here, as you just did, could easily be seen as a violation of WP:AGF, or an indication that you have a sense of ownership of this page.
I am fighting the instinct to justify my presence, and for now I think I will let my edit history and extensive and easily traceable involvement in online public forums over the last 15 years speak for itself. Honestly, it seems like this page is so watched over by both devotees and antagonistic ex-devotees of the subject that my LACK of a conflict of interest somehow makes me suspect!! I happen to think that this page needs MORE, not less, fresh blood to get past the bitter editing conflicts.
I don't have your long history on Misplaced Pages. Did I miss a policy that editors not involved in edit wars must justify their presence on a page? Msalt (talk) 19:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Your edit history only shows one year lapse between your last edit, and editing this page. As for extensive and easily traceable involvement in online public forums over the last 15 years, please clarify. Yes, WP:AFG is worth mentioning. You may want to re-read it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Online history: A good starting point is that I was the co-host (with Howard Rheingold) of the Virtual Communities conference on the WELL in the early 1990s, and a stalwart there. I'm confident some people here remember me from those days. Since 1995 I have edited a political scandal web page called <a href="http:\\www.realchange.org">The Skeleton Closet</a>, which in some ways is wiki-like (non-partisan, sort of encyclopedic, I list all sources in footnotes) though very much my POV and single editor. I was heavily involved in alt.standup.comedy in the late 90s and early aughts, and lately have spent time at Metafilter as well. On all of these, I am known as msalt wherever possible, though on the WELL I was later Training as well. I think I put this all on my User page but I don't really remember, I'll check.
To be explicit regarding the hot issue of COI, lest anyone think I'm being coy, I will state outright: I have no knowledge of or experience with Prem Rawat, have not met or emailed anyone who is follower or ex-follower of his, have no strong feelings about him one way or the other. I'm an agnostic ex-Catholic with secular Taoist leanings. Have I passed the security check yet?
I am truly offended that you think you have the right to grill me here, and ask that you really consider the wisdom of this tack, and consider an apology. I answer your challenges under protest, only to remove any doubt anyone might have of my motives. I will never understand how you think your challenges here conform to WP:AGF. Msalt (talk) 02:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I extend an apology, and hope it is accepted. I am just concerned with a series of dormant accounts (I have counted five) that suddenly got activated, by users with a knowledge of WP policies, and given the circumstances, I have a difficult time to WP:AGF. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Apology accepted and appreciated, of course. Like I said, I know you've taken a lot of hostile fire lately (or is the proper term "friendly" fire?). I realize my combination of confidence and limited experience is unusual, but hopefully my background explains that better. As for policies, well, I've learned it all in the last 10 days! I appreciate the links provided, and the clarity with which the policies are spelled out. I'm good at being analytical. As for why I'm here, now -- I love the Wiki project, have very limited time, and this is the second article where I've gotten fascinated by the Sisyphean task of trying to contribute in the midst of bitter edit wars (no offense, but...). The other was the Mark Foley page, which I came to through my political scandal website. And now, hopefully, everyone is happy to hear LESS about me again. Msalt (talk) 02:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, please stop. Not constructive. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe you are right, but I am uncomfortable with the fact that several dormant accounts are suddenly active. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, and I could point you to another one. Did you hear me complain when I found out about that one a few days ago, although certainly belonging to one of the "camps"? Do you have any idea how *bored* we desinterested (read: uninterested) parties are with this former guru – although I only want to speak for myself? So now you have taken it upon yourself to start bickering in a way that could easily chase away those not thoroughly hardened in wiki dealings. Please. Everyone is welcome, and especially the desinterested ones should be made welcome, *especially* if they want to explain their edits on this talk page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Francis, if this is not obvious to you, my concern is WP:GAME, and WP:SOCK#Avoiding_scrutiny. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
And you got your answer from the one you wanted to test. That's where you should have stopped, at least on this talk page. Indeed, dormant accounts have resurrected: as you already said you knew about more than one. The ones sharing your viewpoint weren't put to the same scrutiny by you. I consider that accidental. That's why I asked you to stop about it here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to be a stickler about this, but I still feel queasy about the Randi passage "James Randi described Rawat as a fraud.", sourced to Randi's Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural.

  1. Randi does not describe Rawat as a fraud in the Prem Rawat section of his book; our wording is OR. If we claim to be quoting Randi, we should stick more closely to what he actually says. At present, the only (tenuous) justification for our assertion that Randi calls Rawat a "fraud" is the fact that the word "fraud" occurs in the book's title ("... Claims, Frauds and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural"). But how do we know that "fraud" applies, and not "occult claim" for example? After all, Randi tries to demolish various "occult claims" in his section on Rawat. And his book also has an entry for Pythagoras, for whom neither "claim", nor "fraud", nor "hoax" seems applicable. I do admit the passage "He promised followers that they would “receive the knowledge” after a period of study and work, during which they donated all their income to him" is suggestive of an allegation of fraud, but perhaps then we should rather quote this verbatim, together with Randi's assertion that certain spiritual experiences promised by Rawat were in Randi's view nothing but sensory illusions. Then we can leave it to the reader to draw further inferences as to whether Randi considers Rawat a fraud, honestly deluded, lacking in scientific knowledge, or whatever.
  2. Randi mentions on his website that the online version of his book is different from the printed book. Having looked up the book on amazon.com, I can't find a reference to Maharaj Ji in the index, nor a reference to Guru Maharaji or Prem Rawat. This may be because of an error in the compilation of the book's index, or it may be because the section is only included in the online version of the book. (Unfortunately, amazon.com only offers "Look Inside" and not "Search Inside".) Does anyone here have a copy of the physical book? If the section is only present on Randi's website, our ref needs adjusting. If it's just an error in the compilation of the index, then this point is of course moot.
  3. The tone of Randi's article is jocular and dismissive, and the article itself very brief; as others have pointed out before, it is not really an ideal encyclopedic source. -- Jayen466 01:59, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Randi is not a great source, for reasons I've stated before (esp your first and third points.) He is there in the criticism section as a representation of the bulk of criticism of Rawat, which is also I think not accurate. Could you suggest a better summary with (obviously) good sources though? It's like Cagan, not a great source but probably acceptable as a stop-gap. I think part of the edit-warring here comes from people using appropriate WP policies to simply delete points they don't really want made, rather than find a better source or re-word the points. This obviously creates bitterness and is I think WP:GAME. It's important to distinguish shaky sources from points that shouldn't be in the article, whether sourced or not, and I've tried to do this.

The older sections of Criticism cited by CIRT and on the Criticism subpages probably contain, for example, several references that could be used for a statement like "Rawat and his following have been criticized as a cult." It seems like the general shape of a criticism section should include 1) cult allegations 2) criticism of his luxurious lifestyle and/or devotee donations and 3) criticisms by ex-devotees. At least, my passing look at many of the sources seems to show a consensus along those lines. It's on my to-do list but I won't have time for a couple of days probably. Msalt (talk) 02:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The Photo

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I regrouped Photo threads, totalling 5 now, again. And will try to find a place where to invite an uninvolved admin to come to a conclusion for the IfD ASAP. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:44, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

First Photo Thread

What was the reason for which the image of Prem's home in Malibu was deleted? I restored it. It is relevant to the section "21 century" as it is an image of the home in which the man resides at this time.Onefinalstep (talk) 20:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Because it amounts to an intrusion of privacy amongst other things. But I'm sure you know that.Momento (talk) 20:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

In what way does the image of the house invade privacy?Onefinalstep (talk) 20:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is different. That photo does not pass the test of verifiablity. The site from you which copied it is not a reputable source for Misplaced Pages. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, I think you are wrong here. The picture's authenticity is verifiable. I think I will keep it up. Onefinalstep (talk) 20:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No, it not verifiable. See WP:V. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I will verify it before I put it back up. Thanks. Onefinalstep (talk) 21:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Onefinalstep: The source you have used in your last edit, is not a valid source for Misplaced Pages, as it is a self-published source. See WP:V#Sources. Please remove it. As for the image, it needs to be verifiable to a reliable source as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
An L.A. Times article: "Ex-Guru Seeks to Expand His Heavenly Rights" JUDY PASTERNAK, Los Angeles Times Apr 11, 1985; pg. WS1, includes a blurry photo of the house taken from a road leading to it. It doesn't look quite like the photo now in this article, but after 22 years it may have been remodeled. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Beback ... yeah I thought about using that photo but I reconsidered based on the mood of the editors here. If they can't remove it because its "unverified" they will just say its not a good photo and take it down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onefinalstep (talk • contribs) 22:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Entirely different house.Momento (talk) 21:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
How do we know that? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Because of the presence of the heliport the address (and coordinates) of the property are available on several websites, so verifiability isn't really an issue. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't matter either way. Posting pictures of a house you claim is Rawat's house is an invasion of privacy.Momento (talk) 06:51, 9 February 2008 (UT)

Momento, anyone can look at anyone's house on Google Earth. You're just flailing as usual to HIDE the truth. Your unremitting commitment to HIDING the truth will surely backfire very badly. You horrible, HORRIBLE bunch of liars are all going to hopefully be revealed as the shameless dishonest, immoral brain-washed creeps you clearly are. You and Rawat are actually showing yourselves to be enemies of truth which is the diametric opposite of what you proclaim. I hope Misplaced Pages bosses have the integrity to see what a corrupting influence you represent and do something about it! You attitude disgusts me as you may have noticed. PatW (talk)

Pat, Jossi interprets your comment above (and other comments on this page) as a personal attack. See Please read WP:NPA if you're not aware. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, that was just a bit over the top. However, did Rawat sue the LA Times for publishing the picture? (that he would have lost is irrelevant) If not, there's nothing wrong with at least a link to the articles, especially in that it speaks to the criticism of Rawat that he lives a bit high on the hog. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 01:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Second Photo Thread

If Rawat was an architect, a photo of a house might be relevant to this article but he isn't. It is just an unnecessary invasion of privacy. Nor should editors link to any site that misleads the reader by use of unverifiable research. The majority of material in the anti Rawat sites is unverifiable research because "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added or linked to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. And the material on the anti sites has not been published by a reliable source. I'm surprised you didn't know this.Momento (talk) 14:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The article mentions peoples criticism or Rawats lifestyle. The image relevant because it highlights the luxurious property he lives in. The issue of privacy is more contentious, but if you can view the scene from public property I think it is acceptable. Maybe it would be helpful to look at Google Earths policy on privacy and private property? I can't really comment on the verifiability of the image.79.68.139.205 (talk) 16:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
This is one of the few new disputes on this article. Most other disputes can be found in the history of the article or the archives of the talk pages. Andries (talk) 16:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


There are many precedents for including a photo of a house in a biography, where:
a) The wealth of the person is relevant to the biographical article
b) the house is obviously opulent, and thus an appropriate illustrative symbol of wealth
c) the photographs are taken from a public view and show the house but not the person referred to or their family
d) the location and residency of the house is well known, publicly available information.
Consider Bill Gates' house, which is referred to from his biography. In my opinion, in both cases there is no privacy issue, due to c) and d) above.
The 'unverifiable research' argument is not applicable to a photograph, as it is factual material and not written research. My understanding is that the two criteria for the legitimacy of an image are copyright legality and verifiability. If a photograph has been verified to be of what is claimed in the caption, then by definition it is reliable information, regardless of source. Any dispute as to the copyright claim or status of an image should be handled as per the standard process, but separately from any question of verifiability of the claim of the image itself. 82.44.221.140 (talk) 17:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
To repeat what I said above, the location of the subject's house is easily verifiable due to the heliport. The heliport, and to a lesser extent the home, were discussed in several local newspaper stories. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


From BLP = Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid, and as such it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. BLPs must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Also BLP says = Do not use, for example, public records that include personal details--such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses. And that would include link, photos, clues etc that would achieve the same. And again BLP says - Misplaced Pages articles should not include addresses, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers, or other contact information for living persons, though links to websites maintained by the subject are generally permitted. Momento (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages articles should not include addresses, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers, or other contact information for living persons, though links to websites maintained by the subject are generally permitted.
I don't see anyone proposing to include the street address. The fact that the subject lives in a "walled, palatial estate" called "Anacapa View Estates" has been published in a reliable, even stodgy newspaper, which even published photos of the mansion. The subject has, by his own actions (related to his heliport), brought the estate to public attention. The subject's lifestyle, including his residences, are a matter of notable criticism. Since the information is so widely available it doesns't look like we're divulging private info. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The BLP page says all these details are OK as long as they've been published by a reliable secondary source. Have any reputable sources published similar images of this building?79.68.139.205 (talk) 20:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I think this part of BLP sums it up - Unsourced material obtained from a Wikipedian's personal experience, such as an unpublished eyewitness account, should not be added to articles. It would violate both this policy and Verifiability, and would cause Misplaced Pages to become a primary source for that material. Has the photo of the house been published in a reliable source and has a reliable source identified it as Rawat's?Momento (talk) 20:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I've changed the title of the image to "This might be Prem Rawat's house" pending some confirmation that the house in the photo has been identified by a a reliable source as Rawat's.Momento (talk) 20:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that is a bad summary. Either the image is of his home, and the summary should reflect that, or it has not been verified as his home, and the image should be removed. How has this been verified as an image of his home?79.68.139.205 (talk) 20:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
If you view this page, then switch to "satellite" view and zoom in, you will find an image of the same house. Press reports in a reliable source have verified that Prem Rawat's home is owned by Seva doing business as "Anacapa View Estates", and that there is a heliport (one of only a few in Malibu). The permit for the heliport has been the subject of government hearings and attendant press coverage. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Will Beback (talk · contribs) here. And this latest edit by Momento (talk · contribs) appears to be a weasel wording attempt to avoid yet another disruptive revert, as opposed to removing the image, again. Cirt (talk) 20:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI, see edit summary in this subsequent edit, by Lawrence Cohen (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 20:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I will remove it again if someone can't provide a reliable source for the claim that the house in the photo belongs to Rawat.Momento (talk) 20:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
You actually cannot. You have heavily violated 3rr here. Lawrence § t/e 20:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that Momento is right about the pic of the house. It is probably unverified. I also think that the external links violate BLP. Andries (talk) 22:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Explain. A statement absent a reason is of no value: you need to explain why it is an issue. Momento's c&p and subsequent interpretation and extrapolation are outside of the codified version of BLP and are merely, at best, his opinion. "Probably unverified" has no meaning either -- it just seems like grasping at straws. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 01:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The house was verified through a LA times article. This is not an issue anymore. Onefinalstep (talk) 06:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, it is an issue. The photograph may not be Prem Rawat's house. I've not seen the LA Times article, but even then, a newspaper article may or may not be accurate. It would depend a great deal on the reputation of the author. The photo should be deleted. It has no relevance to any discussion of what Rawat is on about. Armeisen (talk) 06:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The LA Times is not a reputable source?!!! I am at a loss with this article and its editors. The LA Times is one of the most influential news sources in the nation. This is not even debatable. If the LA times is not reputable enough then what is? Are you telling me that you, Armeisen, are going to pull something off Misplaced Pages when it is verified through the LA Times because you think the newspaper "might not be accurate?" If I follow your editing, I should be able to pull everything off this article that is cited simply because I think the source "might not be accurate". Regarding the author of the story ... if there is some reason to believe (e.g. because of an retraction, or correction by the newspaper) that the story was not accurate, you need to show the evidence. If something is substantiated by the LA Times, I would argue that the burden is on you to prove that the paper was wrong. The benefit of the doubt goes to the national daily, not you. Onefinalstep (talk) 23:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


One final step, you have reverted the article even though your reversion flies in the face of Misplaced Pages policy on BLP. I will revert it, as it is direct violation of that policy, as outlined above. Armeisen (talk) 07:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

This is utter nonsense. I have continued to place three things in this article that deserve to be there. All of these things have been continually deleted with no comment by the deleter. I suggest that we get someone in here to mediate this situation. To continue to fight over this is exhausting.Onefinalstep (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Keeping the photo of house, having the internal map of the location is an intrusion of privacy. Removed that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taxed123 (talk • contribs) 09:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

See User talk:Taxed123#Your image removal at Prem Rawat, and of course the next section #Third Photo Thread. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Third Photo Thread

No one has provided a reliable source that claims that the house in the photo is owned by Rawat. BLP says "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Misplaced Pages:No original research). The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Content may be re-inserted only if it conforms to this policy. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space". And " The burden of evidence for any edit on Misplaced Pages, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material". So I'm going to remove it again and keep removing it until someone provides a reliable source that says that the house in the photo is owned by Rawat and I will apply to have any person who puts it back blocked. Momento (talk) 02:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Momento - the photo is being discussed for deletion (per the link in its caption). That discussion is where you should make the argument that this is a violation of WP:BLP. Or at the BLP noticeboard. This is the wrong place. And since the weight of opinion in the deletion discussion seems to be running (at the moment) in favor of keeping the image, I suggest that you work on building consensus in the deletion discussion based on your argument.
Also, in the future, if you want to provide further explanation for your edits on this talk page, please mention that you've done so in your edit summary. That way, other editors (like me) will be fully aware of your arguments. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 02:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
That is a discussion about Fair use. And you should know that "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space"Momento (talk) 02:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento, a notice at WP:BLP/N may be not a bad idea. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Done.Momento (talk) 03:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Please ignore comments such as those below, that seem to be designed to bait you in reacting, Momento. Stay cool, OK. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Can we try to keep discussions of topics under their appropriate section? There are currently three threads running on the photo of the house, two on the kissing of the feet, and a couple on the external links. Also, if anyone is unaware the photo is getting alot of attention here and I think it's probably the best place to talk about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onefinalstep (talk • contribs) 04:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
  • While I don't personally believe the image meets NFCC per NFCC the only way the image can be included is if the house is discussed extensively in the article. A simple comment on him owning extensive property is not sufficient. Is there really justification for including extensive criticism of this specific property based on the sources and without violating undue? From what I can tell there isn't. He has been criticised due to the fact he owns a lot of expensive stuff including this house however this house is by no means the only nor necessarily the most significant of his properties considering he owns a lot of stuff. Nil Einne (talk) 17:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
  • "From what you can tell" is the operative sentence here. The criticism on his lifestyle is being cut out day after day. I agree, the house looks strange when its just sitting on the criticism page with no criticism of his opulent lifestyle. But you have to view the fight over the photo in context of what is happening with the other battles over content. He does own other expensive stuff, but the mansion is the best symbol of how he lives. I would suggest putting a picture of his yacht in the criticism section, but I would like either or. I don't think we need to show every helicopter, boat, jet, mansion (on whatever continent) he has. Also, I think the same fight would erupt if we substituted the picture of the mansion with some other symbol of wealth. But the picture works well. We have had comments by people claiming that it spoke a thousand words to them just to see how this religious leader lives. Onefinalstep (talk) 17:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
  • But that's exactly the point. I have no idea what's going on here and really I can't be bothered getting into this rather nasty image thing. But as the image is a NFCC image the only way you can include it is if there is justification because of resonably extensive commentry on the specific thing depicted in the article. Because this guy is so outrageously rich and owns an outrageously amount of expensive stuff there is absolutely no justification for including an NFCC image of his house. You could just as well include an image of his yatch, helicopter, jet whatever else he owns. Or just don't include any images and mention he owns an outrageous amount of stuff. It doesn't matter whether in your opinion this best depitcs his wealth since this is NOT an argument about whether or not we should depict his house but an argument about whether or not an NFCC image of his house is justified. NFCC requires an image be irreplacable and an image is not irreplacable when you can depict what it depicts with another image even if that image isn't quite as good as the image you are replacing. And in any case, you should include the NFCC house AFTER you have fixed up whatever other issues exist which mean you are hardly discussing the house at all. NFCC requires there be justification for including the picture of the house at this very moment not 3 months in the future when we've resolved what POV issues are currently unresolved. To put it another way... If and when we got a free image of his house then sure we can have a debate on simple principles about whether to include a picture of his house (well I probably won't be taking part since my primary concern here is NFCC but anyway...). But that isn't the case at the moment, this is a NFCC image and it needs to meet NFCC or be removed. Nil Einne (talk) 17:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The photo is currently discussed at Misplaced Pages:Images_and_media_for_deletion/2008_February_9#Image:Prem_Rawat.27s_Property.jpg.

Until that discussion is at its end the IfD tag included in the image can't be removed (I'm sure there's a rule somewhere one shouldn't remove a delete tag during a delete discussion, while that is considered disruptive)

When some uninvolved admin closes the IfD discussion (I don't know when, and don't want to speculate), there's two possibilities: either the image is deleted, either it is kept. In the first case further discussion would be held at DRV (if any); In the second case, a discussion whether or not the image is suitable for the article can be held here or in some appropriate place.

Anyway, removing the image during discussion at IfD is not an option, for two reasons:

  • It would remove the IfD tag, with the link to the IfD discussion too, which is, as said above, disruptive.
  • As the image is "fair use" as long as it isn't deleted, it needs to be in an article per "fair use" rules. Now some of you smartasses might think it would be OK to remove the image from the article, and then have it speedied per CSD-I-don't-know-what-number. That would be disruptive too. Note that the speedy procedure was tried before IfD: as there was no consensus for CSD applicability, that is the reason that the only possible way for the deletion of this image is via reasonable discussion at IfD.

The least that would happen in the case of continued removals of the image from the Prem Rawat article is that I'd ask the IfD people to keep the discussion of this image at the IfD page open for a longer period, equal to the period it wasn't visible, or properly tagged here at the Prem Rawat article. I'd prefer not to go looking for the appropriate "disruption" tag for posting on whatever user talk page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment I would agree with Francis, it's best to leave the image in for now. While I do think there are potentially BLP issues here, IMHO they aren't serious enough that people should remove the image from the article for now. I highly doubt the image will be deemed to meet NFCC anyway and would strongly suggest that editors let the IFD play out instead of worrying too much about BLP issues at this time Nil Einne (talk) 17:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

BLP policy takes precedence over a debate about Fair Use which this photo fails. If we followed the above argument I could take a nude shot from a celebrities house and put it on their article and claim it must stay there why we debate Fair Use or other policy. No reliable party has confirmed the house in the photo is owned by Rawat so BLP is clear - Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space. I have removed it.Momento (talk) 23:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been looking through some guidance, what I found thus far:
  • Nor BLP (in general) nor "libelous material" are CSD criteria;
  • BLP (in general) is not a 3RR exception;
  • "Libelous material" is a 3RR exception;
  • "Libelous material" hasn't been brought to the discussion of this photograph while it apparently doesn't apply.
Whether this is a BLP issue, is not proven yet. The IfD discussion is not limited to "fair use" discussion, you can bring any argument to that discussion you want, which I think you even did. The closing admin wil make his/her decision, and we take it from there. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:10, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento, there are indeed reliable sources that say that the house is owned by a company for the use of Prem Rawat. If there is a problem with the sourcing then let's discuss it here rather than edit warring. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
If Rawat isn't shown as the owner, you can't use it. It's that simple.Momento (talk) 03:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see why that's the case. It's "his" house, identifed by reliable sources. The name on the deed is a secondary matter. Nowadys, most sensible people keep their major assets in a living trust that technically own the properties. But no one would seriously propose that the assets don't belong to them. OTOH if you can get a consensus of editor to agree that it isn't his house, despite the reliable sources to the contrary, then it would be a different matter. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
BLP should not be taken as black and white. I consider BLP very serious, as my history shows, but this is clearly not a nude celebrity case. If someone posted a nude celebrity image then yes I probably would remove it on sight per BLP. However the BLP issues in this one are much less clear. I am satisfied that this is his house. Whether or not the information/sourcing we have is sufficient to satisfy BLP, I'm not sure. But the fact that this is his house means it's not such a serious issue as when someone posts an image with absolutely no evidence. Similarly if Prem Rawat had been a private figure I would be much less flexible, but he's not he's clearly a highly public figure. There may be other issues here relating to BLP but again all of the are not so serious as to require immediate removal. Instead, it is perfectly fine to leave it in for now. You are welcome to continue to discuss BLP issues. I personally am not going to bother because it's a pointless discussion. This image is almost definitely going to be deleted per NFCC and it's current inclusion is not so terrible as to require immediate removal. Nil Einne (talk) 11:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's a citation saying it's "his" house"

  • The one-time "perfect master" of the Divine Light Mission has been denied permission from the county's Regional Planning Commission to triple the number of helicopter landings annually at his Malibu mountain-ridge estate...Until the spring of 1984, the one-time guru was seldom at his mansion, called Anacapa View Estates, off Trancas Canyon 600 feet above Pacific Coast Highway...He and his family visited there a few times a year but they also spent time in Miami and abroad. Then Maharaji dropped his ties with the Divine Light organization and settled full time at the Malibu estate, Gross said.
    • "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Use;" JUDY PASTERNAK. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 7, 1985. pg. 1
  • The argument centers on how many times each year the one-time guru can descend from the skies in a helicopter to a landing pad at his Malibu mountain-ridge estate, 600 feet above Pacific Coast Highway. Maharaji is seeking county permission to increase the number of landings to 36 each year, triple the number he is currently allowed. Until last spring, Maharaji was seldom at his mansion, called Anacapa View Estates, said Linda Gross, a Los Angeles lawyer who represents him. He and his family stayed there a few times a year, but they also spent time in Miami and abroad.
    • "Ex-Guru Seeks to Expand His Heavenly Rights; JUDY PASTERNAK. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 11, 1985. pg. 1

There are two reliable sources that say the house is "his", that the house is called "Anacapa View Estates", and that it has a heliport. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Fourth Photo Thread

This photo will soon be deleted, in the meantime I am putting into into the "Personal" section where the text says Rawat lives in Malibu. It is vandalism and POV pushing to place this photo anywhere else.Momento (talk) 20:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

No, not a good idea: you have strong ideas in the debate on the photo, you won't pay any attention to what others say, yet again you start a new talk page section about something that's already and still actively discussed in 3 or 4 sections above, and to all that you add the presumption, that pre-emptively you know what the closing admin will decide at Misplaced Pages:Images_and_media_for_deletion/2008_February_9#Image:Prem_Rawat.27s_Property.jpg. That won't fly. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento, let's wait to see how that IfD will be closed. Arguments presented there are related to WP:FAIR and discussions about NPOV are unnecessary at the moment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
As I already pointed out, above in #Third Photo Thread, the discussions at IfD are not limited to (nor should they necessarily be limited to) the "fair use" aspect. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Why has the photo been removed yet again? I thought we'd agreed to let the IfD play out. Will Beback NS (talk) 00:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The photo (5)

The photo of the house needs to be removed. The count of independent editors (have not edited this article) is 8 to delete and 2 to keep.Momento (talk) 00:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The IfD will be closed soon, and the arguments there are compelling for deletion as the image fails WP:FAIR. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
The picture is not from Google as several editors have claimed, but from Microsoft, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't meet Misplaced Pages's rules for images. So, delete. --John Brauns (talk) 09:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why the IfD is still lingering. It would alleviate pressure if that procedure were concluded. Can't we find an uninvolved admin to close the procedure without further delay? --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:44, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The IfD has been closed by Nangeduska. Decision: DELETED. He made the edit himself. I made a bit of a fool of myself by thinking he was another drive by deleter and reverting with a snippy edit summary. Dang, and I've been so good until then! Msalt (talk) 01:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on "Criticism" section from 8 February 2008

Previous discussion can be found (for instance) at:

(and other sections of Archive 28)

I've regrouped the "Criticism section" talks from 8 February 2008 here, as the time sequence of these sections had become disturbed, but primarily to avoid their general scattering (leading, for instance, to redundant repeats of same arguments). --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Re. {{criticism-section}}

Now I'm definitely going to revert to the late January 2007 version: that version had a "reception" section (not a "criticism" section), containing positive as well as negative criticism, completely conforming to the recommendations of Misplaced Pages:Criticism, the "criticism" maintenance template can go in the same revert. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Why Francis? Don't you think that it would be best to move forward from a version that has support. Is edit-warring the way to go? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, you "reverted", then came to this page pleading to stop the reverting.
I don't like the version you reverted to either.
If you revert to a version that has a problem, and then put up a dispute tag, that was not needed for the version you reverted away, I don't know what to make of that.
I prefer the version that has the positive and negative comments from both scholars and other sources in a reception section, as recommended by Misplaced Pages:Criticism. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Not worth getting into 3RR territory. I hope you would agree with me on this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, I can only interpret that as you offering a self-revert to a less problematic version. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I have to say I'd prefer to improve what we currently have here rather than revert back a year. The GA review improved the Jan version significantly. Do we really want to lose those good edits? David D. (Talk) 00:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but beg to disagree, the version I got from under the dust was less problematic: it didn't need the {{criticism-section}} tag. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The problem with the "Reception" section of Jan 07, is that is misses many sources that were found during 2007. If we add all these, we will end up with a bloated article that does not read well, and that will end up formatted as a series of opinions, rather than a biographical narrative. Let's build up from the current version instead. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
No problem to put these sources back in. Over 30 sources were also deleted since late Jan 07. Maybe some of these are worth keeping. It's easier to find back more recently added sources. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
"Bloat" can easily be fixed by less Draconian measures. It's really just a matter of using good language skills. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 01:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding David D.'s opinion, see also this conversation:

I still defend the version I reverted to --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
what you suggest might well be best. David D. (Talk) 17:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

--Francis Schonken (talk) 18:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Actual (Suggested) Edits to Criticism Section

I don't have a position or stake in this controversy, and am encouraged by the direction of the most recent changes. So, moving forward, I have some suggestions for relatively minor edits in the Criticism section for clarity and readability.

1) 3rd paragraph (starting with "Kranenborg") -- can we give him a first name, and a brief description of who he is or what his credentials are? Ditto Melton in the 6th paragraph. Is Kranenborg speaking as a Christian leader to an explictly Christian audience? The wording implies so; it might be useful to say so if true or reword if not.

2) The 4th paragraph (Stephen Kent) is awkwardly worded. I bet it was Kent's comment about Rawat that was in the preface of his book, not his experience with him as is written. "on him in the 1970s" would more typically be phrased as "of him...". "described" vs. "treats" is a tense mismatch. Here's a proposed rewrite: "Based on his personal experience with Prem Rawat, the sociologist Stephen A. Kent described Rawat's message as "banal" in the preface of his book "From Slogans to Mantras", and later summarized criticism of him in the 1970s by the countercultural left."

3) Last paragraph -- "An author initiated in Knowledge" -- Why not use the name, which appears to be Jeanne Messer? Also, "initiated in Knowledge" seems unnecessarily jargony. I don't know exactly what being "initiated" means or entails. How about "Jeanne Messer, an author trained in Rawat's meditation techniques,..." (or Knowledge techniques, or Knowledge system)? Msalt (talk) 08:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I realize that I have the actual power to edit this section without a Talk page discussion, but given the heat surrounding this page in general and this section in particular, I think it's a better idea for me to wait until tomorrow at least before going ahead with these, though I consider them content-neutral.Msalt (talk) 09:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I think I covered most bases of your suggestions. Feel free to review again, and offer new or additional ones. Tx. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Msalt, Reender Kranenborg is a relgious scholar. Ditto for J. Gordon Melton. Initiation means that you receive Knowlege. User:Vassyana has argued that Christian sermonizing should go out of this article. I disagreed with most of what Vassyana wrote but I guess he was right in this one. Andries (talk) 16:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your input Msalt. I'd like to work with Francis on the lede before I get involved in anything else.Momento (talk) 11:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Criticism section

Now that we've cleared up the issue of the photo and the links, it's time to clear up the criticism section. BLP policy is clear = "Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one". It is obviously disproportionate to give each critic a paragraph since nowhere else in this article is any other source quoted at length. So I will summarize the criticism.Momento (talk) 10:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I've treated this section like the rest. That is summarizing the scholars rather than quoting at length.Momento (talk) 10:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I have been away on business for a few days and missed the excitement. I must say, even with Momento's necessary criticism summary, to me the article now reads like a great barrel of steaming horse manure. It will take much to get it back. I believe the simple "what, when, where, who, how" approach of a week ago was much more likely to be stable than the present version, which gives undue prominence to criticism. For balance, it will now need a "praise" section. This was what we had before and were trying to avoid, an endless inflation of the article by editors inserting their pros and cons. But I think it is now unavoidable. And do you have any idea how much praise this man has received? Rumiton (talk) 12:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
And do you have any idea how much praise this man has received? Do you have any idea how much no one really cares, save for paid Misplaced Pages editors? Laughs. Why should praise have anything to do with how we edit? --Pax Arcane 13:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind if Momento and Rumiton restricted their comments and edits to fixing errors. But when they argue about balance and NPOV and how the article should read, overall (as does Jossi), then I (personally) have grave doubts that they are placing the interests of Misplaced Pages first and their own personal beliefs second. Yes, that could be seen as a failure on my part to assume good faith, but the fact that I found this article to be - in its pre-Register version - an embarrassment to Misplaced Pages, an opinion I think is shared by many other editors previously never involved with this - indicates, I think, that the intentions of Jossi, Momento, and Rumiton are clear regarding this article.
As a single point of illustration: It's not "Newspapers have remarked on the amount of positive comments about Prem Rawat's accomplishments", but rather "Do you have any idea how much praise this man has received?" Momento should know that a million praises by followers of Prem Rawat should be given less weight than a single sentence by an expert, in a published book by a reputable publisher, about this topic. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 14:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
John, I appreciate your comments, but I think Momento was referring to academy, business, and government leader's praise, not followers. That material was removed in previous edits, including a speech by Vice-president of India. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
It wasn't Momento, it was me, Rumiton, back from my break. And yes, I was saying that if large amounts of criticism are quoted directly in the article, then balancing amounts of praise (not from "followers", from impeccable sources) will need to be included too, for neutrality. It is readily available. Several times I have fended off current devotees who wanted to throw in gushing praise for just this reason, it only incites the other POV. The article becomes huge and the discussions bellicose, and it's a nightmare to make readable and useful. So it's better just to say what the subject has done in his life and quote from 2ndary sources who say that both positive and negative responses have been recorded. This is a neutral, Wikipedic attitude, not biased thinking. Rumiton (talk) 14:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I would also ask you, John, where do you see me discussing balance and NPOV, and why would that not be appropriate for any editor to discuss that in talk. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
With regard to your second question, the more an editor has a strong personal interest in a subject, the more difficult it is for that editor to remain neutral about it. That's one reason why we have WP:COI. It's much easier to be neutral/objective about factual statements than it is above things like balance and whether specific wording is NPOV or not. As for the first question, I note the following (and I've only gone back to the most recent talk archive):
From Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 27:
  • The personal section should remain as is, as it relates to current events and not those that happen 30 odd years ago
  • There is no need to highlight a non-existing dispute, as it would violate V, NOR and NPOV.
  • when you come to this project it is expected that you check your negative viewpoints at the login screen
From User talk:Jossi#Prem:
  • You cannot dismiss with a wave of the hand thousands of edits to a version you created more than 14 months ago.
From this page (above):
  • Let us start with the last version by David D. as a compromise version. We can move forward in addressing specific concerns. It is a starting point.
  • There is a proposal on the table by David to start improving the article from a compromise version.
  • My last edit was restoring the compromise version by David D.
  • Why Francis? Don't you think that it would be best to move forward from a version that has support. Is edit-warring the way to go?
-- John Broughton (♫♫) 17:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I remember my comments, John. But my point is that all editors, pro, con, or neutral should be welcomed to discuss NPOV, which is our long-standing and non-negotiable principle. I would hope you would agree with me on that. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
No, I don't agree that all editors should be welcomed to participate vigorously in discussing balance and other NPOV issues for articles in which they have a significant personal interest. I think it's appropriate for such editors to restrain themselves to factual and objective issues, rather than issues that are subjective (what is "neutral"; what is "appropriate balance"). I'm fully aware that this is not current policy, so it - of course - represents my personal opinion. All I can do at this point is strongly suggest to other editors that they should evaluate the comments by you, Momento, and Rumiton as coming from less-than-fully-neutral editors. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 18:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
You personal opinion not-withstanding, I would argue that it is in contradiction with established principles, of WP:AGF, and WP:CONSENSUS. Neither pro, or con editors should be subjected to the dismissal of their arguments as you suggest unless remedies have been decided by community consensus, or by the ArbCom. I would further argue that it is in talk pages that editors, regardless of affiliation or POV, discuss the details and nuances of NPOV, V, BLP and other related policies and guidelines in the pursuit to creating a good article. See an example of that in many articles in which there are strong POVs at play, such as Homeopathy, Israeli-Palestinian_conflict and many others. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Your example of Homeopathy is an excellent one - that's a case where the interaction of editors with strong POVs lead to an Arbitration Committee ruling that put the article and related ones on article probation. I suspect that the "many others" you refer to include a number of other cases where (eventually) Arbcomm had to become involved in order for anything constructive to happen with the related articles. If that's your idea of how Misplaced Pages should effectively function, we do indeed have very different opinions. As of WP:AGF, that isn't an absolute - for example, with WP:COI, the community has decided not to assume good faith with editors who have clear conflicts of interest, but rather to strongly suggest that they refrain from certain edits. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 23:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Praise section PLUS criticism section

I am fine with a Praise section as long as the criticism section gets the same respect.Onefinalstep (talk) 16:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is with statements like this: if large amounts of criticism are quoted directly in the article, then balancing amounts of praise (not from "followers", from impeccable sources) will need to be included too, for neutrality - as if WP:NPOV required some sort of equality of criticism and praise. That's why the fundamental issue here still remains that three long-involved editors with strong points of view (in favor of a "positive" article) are acting as if they can somehow be neutral in the same way that editors without such a bias - yes, bias - are relatively easily able to be.
Anyway, we might as well try a "Praise" section if that's what it takes to stop the objections to a "Criticism" section, although it would be better if neither existed because the information had been integrated into the article. But let's drop the "balancing" theory, since that isn't what WP:NPOV is about - it's about appropriate balance. Someone who has done much more good than bad should have an article reflecting that; someone in the opposite situation should have an article reflecting that mix; and editors who have strong biases are singularly ill-equipped to decide what that balance should be. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 17:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Why a criticism section at all? Doesn't Jimbo prefer the criticism woven into the article since these sections become "vandal magnets"? FWIW - I'm totally uninvolved and don't have time to edit any article right now nor do I intend to edit this article but came here because of the discussion on Jimbo's talk page. --PTR (talk) 17:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
See notes 5 and 6 of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. There is no question that if criticism can be integrated into an article, it serves the reader better (all related information is in the same paragraph or section). -- John Broughton (♫♫) 17:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I see. The Article Structure section of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view seems to argue against it though and points to the manual of style which exposits further. --PTR (talk) 19:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
You're correct PTR, a "criticism" section violates NPOV policy. NPPOV policy warns about ""Segregation" of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself". Any criticism should be woven into the article.Momento (talk) 21:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento, I think you are misreading WP:NPOV. It does not require that criticism/praise be integrated into the article; it merely suggests that doing so is desirable when possible. It further notes that there are differing opinions. I'd say that the right answer is for editors to decide what's best for this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Paragraph at issue

Alright, here is a paragraph that is being deleted over and over. Lets try and work this one out here on the discussion. Momento, please detail your problems with this entry and be specific.

  • Some scholars have criticized Rawat for living a luxurious lifestyle and, while a teenager, being immature. Reender writes, that in the Divine Light Mission, members were expected to turn over all material possessions to the mission and to abstain from alcohol, tobacco, meat, and sex.The scholar J. Gordon Melton, a research specialist in religion and New Religious Movements, reported that "Maharaj Ji frequently acted like the teenager when he was in public, was seen as immature and hence unfit to be a religious leader." Onefinalstep (talk) 17:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
How does this sentence "Maharaj Ji frequently acted like the teenager when he was in public, was seen as immature and hence unfit to be a religious leader.", gets summarized as "Some scholars have criticized Rawat for living a luxurious lifestyle and being immature"? Clearly the immature thing was related of him being 16 years olf at the time. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't know, the sentences that get placed on here for discussion soon lose their context and relevance due to the hyper editing. Two of the sentences I put up here, this, and the Hunt critique have lost any place they had in the article while they were sitting around here waiting for the people who deleted them to help rewrite them. Also, the statement, "while a teenager, immature." seems idiotic, I agree, but I think that statement has been boiled down to its nubb at the moment because a further expansion and comprehensive critique of Rawat's personality (which critics have attacked) is impossible on this article. Onefinalstep (talk) 06:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Exactly Jossi. As for Reender, he is commenting on Divine Light Mission not Rawat. But he's wrong even then because the only people who were "expected to turn over all material possessions to the mission and to abstain from alcohol, tobacco, meat, and sex" were the small minority of people who asked to live in the Ashrams. I should say at this point I have read everything there is to read about Rawat and in the hundreds of hours researching this article I have found impeccable sources to back every edit I made. Many of the flurry of edits being made recently suffer from a superficial understanding of everything that has gone before.Momento (talk) 22:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi -it would help a great deal if you would (a) not just criticize one sentence in a suggested paragraph but rather (b) respond to the entire proposed paragraph by (c) suggesting alternative wording. Your limited response does not significantly help arrive at consensus; rather, it simply delays the issue. Please propose an alternative. (And since the sentence you criticize has two sources, not one, please make sure that you draw from both in terms of suggested rewording.) Consensus requires both sides to make suggestions, not for one side to propose and the other side to do partial critiques.
Similarly, Momento, instead of patting yourself on the back (I have found impeccable sources to back every edit I made), you might actually want to respond to Onefinalstep's proposal with alternative wording. And if that's going to take a day or so, just say so, rather than leaving the impression that you've responded when in fact you have not. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 23:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
While we wait for the "Criticism" section to be moved, I have added an "Honors" section for balance.Momento (talk) 00:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Back to base one

Per the above #Re._.7B.7Bcriticism-section.7D.7D, but I'll give it more respect to the non-footnoted sections. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Can we discuss rather than revert?

Francis, your last edit removed some material that was being discussed, and about which sources were being found. For example, see Talk:Prem_Rawat#Sources_2 ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about this. It was the best measure now, as explained above at #Re._.7B.7Bcriticism-section.7D.7D. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

What is going on, Francis? Your input here is welcome, but doing this for the third time is not helpful. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It is helpful. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm forced to disagree. Quite strongly, actually. I think you'll find most editors here feel the same. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 16:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Recall that I created a temporary holding page at Talk:Prem_Rawat/criticism for various incarnations of the criticism section. I would suggest using that as a source for adding relevant material. Clearly not all should go into the article but it does allow us to determine if any quality commentary has been inadvertantly missed out. David D. (Talk) 18:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe I said above that I think Francis is right in this matter. Relata refero (talk) 23:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Talk page discipline

As has been remarked above (in a section on another topic), it's not such a geat idea for things that already have a separate section on this talk page, to just ignore it and start another section on the same topic — especially when the discussion in the previously existing section is still active.

For instance, Jossi's revert (the one I re-reverted) is already discussed above in #Re._.7B.7Bcriticism-section.7D.7D. The criticism section is a problem, see for instance also above #Criticism section. The version I reverted to doesn't have that problem. And solved the problem far better than the solutions proposed above at #Criticism section. And I explained why in the section some sections above that section, #Re._.7B.7Bcriticism-section.7D.7D, and there I also explained how I would act to address that problem. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Criticism (take n)

To balance the Criticism section I will restore the Praise/Awards section as soon as I have a full list of 2ndary sources. I do not like this, it makes the article look promotional or schizoid, but while Criticism remains as its own section, in defiance of Misplaced Pages advice, I see no alternative. Rumiton (talk) 03:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You can look at ways to integrate the material in criticism section into the appropriate sections, without losing any material. There is no reason that it should not be possible to do. A very short summary of the honors received, such as keys to cities, would also be useful. Same about the fact that his TV programs are available in Canal Infinito (a Time Warner channel in South America and southern states of the US), 31 Brisbane in Australia, and others. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, I will do that. Rumiton (talk) 04:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Rumiton, as I explained above in #Talk page discipline the discussion about the criticism is still active in at least two threads above:
No, appending yet another instance of discussing the "criticism" topic, to a thread that started out on something else will not do. Certainly as very awkwardly you come to another new conclusion not yet really explored in these previous threads. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
While it is a good idea to keep discussions together, I think that it is worth exploring the possibility of integrating the material in the criticism as well as any "honors" in the appropriate places in the biography. This idea has the support of several editors (including several uninvolved editors), while others disagree. If there is no agreement on how to move forward in this regard, or there are no compromises possible, we shall need to explore dispute resolution on the subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 13:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
It might be a good idea to decide on what criticisms and what praise to include (on a separate page or on the talk page) - write a paragraph for each - and then review each item and come to a consensus on where in the article they belong. --PTR (talk) 14:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I hope the amount of material will change a lot shortly, as more sources come to light. Might be good to hold off for a few days. Or perhaps not. We can always discuss again. Rumiton (talk) 16:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Please not that has been discussed already years ago and then I argued that criticisms and praise from relevant experts in the field is okay in the article. An analogy, if George W. Bush likes the star wars movie then we do not mention his in the article star wars because he is not relevant expert in the field or a notable journalistic soource. Andries (talk) 21:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Did Donations Make Him Rich

That the donations of followers made him rich is an undisputed fact.
Price, Maeve, The Divine Light Mission as a social organization. (note 1) Sociological Review, 27(1979)
"Another factor may well have been the financial independence of Maharaj Ji, which he enjoys through the generosity of his devotees. Note 27: Contributions from premies throughout the world allow Maharaj Ji to follow the life style of an American millionaire. He has a house (in his wife's name), an Aston Martin, a boat, a helicopter, the use of fine houses (divine residences) in most European countries as well as South America, Australia and New Zealand, and an income which allows him to run a household and support his wife and children, his brother, Raja Ji, and his wife, Claudia. In addition, his entourage of family, close officials and mahatmas are all financed on their frequent trips around the globe to attend the mission's festivals."
Andries (talk) 21:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
That is from 1979. Many things have changed since the 70's, as you already know. Prem Rawat does not charge for his appearances, the use of his speeches in materials such as DVDs, TV programs, CDs, etc.

Does Maharaji benefit from the activities of any of the organizations promoting his message? No. Most of the organizations promoting his message are non-profit and by law cannot provide a financial benefit to Maharaji or any other individual. The financial records of these organizations are impeccable in this regard, and absolutely no money flows from these organizations to him or his family. He receives no benefit from the activities of the not-for-profit organizations supporting his work and no income from attendance at his addresses nor from the sale of materials.He supports himself and his family through private means.

The dissemination of his message of peace is made available in more than 90 countries and 70 languages. TPRF’s humanitarian activities are entirely supported by voluntary contributions and the sale of related materials. As a private investor, he supports himself and his family through independent means.

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, the quote from Elan Vital is simply wrong in saying that non-profit organizations cannot provide a financial benefit to any individual, by law. The head of the United Way makes $1 million a year, and there are dozen of religious figures (mostly Christian fundamentalist TV preachers) who lead lives of luxury paid for by their non-profit, tax-exempt organizations. Msalt (talk) 05:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
The title is confusing, I think there is a clear difference between a "donation" which is "something that is given to a charity, esp. a sum of money" and a "gift" which is "a thing given willingly to someone without payment" or a "contribution" which is "a gift or payment to a common fund or collection". Since Rawat didn't charge for teaching or speaking, he was reliant on "the generosity of his devotees".Momento (talk) 05:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
(ec) Having said that, I would argue that there is merit in adding a sentence in the appropriate point in the chronology, that presents Maeve's point about the the financial independence of young Rawat, and the role that followers played in affording him that independence. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Really, though, you only need to be made rich once, don't you? If somebody gave me, say, a billion dollars, and then I renounced acceptance of donations and supported myself via "private means" (i.e. investment income), that doesn't make it inaccurate to say that I got rich from others' donations. I don't know the particulars of Rawat's financial situation, but I don't necessarily see that what Jossi says refutes the 1979 quote. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 22:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Rawat has never renounced acceptance of donations. --John Brauns (talk) 00:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree. See my comment above, which I had an edit conflict. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Note that Rawat was 16-years old at that time. Maeve's full quote: ''Immediately following Maharaj Ji's marriage a struggle for power took place within the Holy Family itself. Maharaj Ji was now sixteen years old. He had the knowledge that his personal following in the West was well established. It is likely that he felt the time had come to take the reins of power from his mother, who still dominated the mission and had a strong hold over most of the mahatmas, all of whom were born and brought up in India. Another factor may well have been the financial independence of Maharaj Ji, which he enjoys through the generosity of his devotees. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
This issue is already covered in the "Coming of Age" section - "Rawat, now legally an adult and financially independent as a result of contributions from his Western devotees, took control of the Western DLM". Like getting rich, it only has to be said once. I think we need more emphasis that unlike Maharishi and TM and many other NRM/philosophies that require tithing and paid courses, Rawat has never charged people to receive the techniques of Knowledge.Momento (talk) 22:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed the paragraph about Rawat's investments from the "Other Aspects" section. For one thing, the two sources were not independent: Cagan (as discussed elsewhere) and the maharaji.org website. More importantly, it's just not encyclopedic to discuss an author/speaker's investment strategy. Unless you are famous for your investments (e.g. Warren Buffet, Paul Allen), why would we include it? To pick an example, Tom Peters is a writer/speaker specializing in business, for heaven's sake, and his article does not discuss his investments.

In this case, where Rawat's wealth and lifestyle and the source of his income are controversial, it constitutes an original research argument (WP:SYN if you accept the sources) rebutting the claim attributed to Mishler in the criticism section that money was diverted to Rawat. I don't believe this rebuttal belongs in the article at all, but if it is determined to belong, it clearly should be in the Criticism section. Msalt (talk) 20:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Rainer P wrote (in a new section that missed this discussion):
I think it is highly unbalanced, to say the least, to report Mishlers - admittedly unsupported - appraisal of a predominantly money-grabbing leadership in the "Critisism"-section, simultaneously deleting Cagan's statement on the origin of Rawat's income, calling it contentious, while casually overlooking the fact, that Rawat does not charge people for being taught the techniques of Knowledge, or seeing him at a program. Not only unbalanced, but plainly manipulative, hopefully unintentionally. Please respond, whoever.--Rainer P. (talk) 20:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
If the statement sourced to Cagan about Rawat having investment sources of income is a rebuttal to Mishler's criticism -- which you strongly imply -- then it logically belongs in the Criticism section, right after Mishler's charge. Listing it under "Other Aspects" is inappropriate and misleading.
However, it is not our job as editors to answer arguments on behalf of Rawat. That would clearly be original research; and if valid sources are listed, it would specifically be WP:SYN. You should read the section #Status of “Peace Is Possible” on this Talk page -- it makes clear that the Cagan book is NOT accepted here as an independent, verifiable source. An apparent consensus has emerged that Cagan is appropriate only for non-controversial points, and your own argument here makes it obvious that this point is controversial.
Also, you seem to be assuming that any criticism of Rawat must be counter-weighted with the answer to the argument. I don't think this is true, any more than any positive statement about Rawat needs to be "answered" by a critic. Encyclopedias are not designed to illustrate debates, giving equal time to all sides; they are for presenting consensus information on the subject. Otherwise, the article starts to sound like a person having arguments between the voices in his head. Msalt (talk) 21:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Msalt, agree with all your points except: "Encyclopedias are not designed to illustrate debates, giving equal time to all sides; they are for presenting consensus information on the subject.", which is in direct conflict with WP:NPOV, non-negotiable policy, e.g. "One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate, including the mutual perspectives and the published evidence." (bolding added, from second paragraph of WP:NPOV#The neutral point of view) --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for the correction, I was mistaken. I'll read through that policy some more. Does that mean that, indeed, for every individual point presented, the opposing view must also be? (as opposed to a general representation of each of the relevant sides in the course of the article)? It seems to me that might be unwieldy in practice. Msalt (talk) 01:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
WP:NPOV is probably the most unavoidable policy of Misplaced Pages. I appreciate that might be different from what you do on your website, but Misplaced Pages is Misplaced Pages, and WP:NPOV is very much at its core.
Now, re. "Does that mean that, indeed, for every individual point presented, the opposing view must also be?" – no, only if the opposing point has received sufficient coverage in published, non-marginal, non-trivial, secondary reliable sources, and is no WP:BLP infringement (each word in that string of qualifiers has its distinct meaning – the links I provided don't explain everything, I'm just illustrating that they have some track record here at Misplaced Pages). Anyway, that's why there's quite some discussion on the quality of sources, while that's a crucial component for the application of the WP:NPOV policy.
So, no applying the WP:NPOV policy is in no measure "unwieldy", although the discussion of the quality of the sources may lead to some unwieldiness in the process (but we try to keep that on the discussion pages, and out of the encyclopedia properly speaking) --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Unwieldy? That's a good word for it. See my suggestion earlier today for cutting all this stuff out and just presenting the basic facts about Prem Rawat's life and work. The more I think about it, the more it seems the only way to go. Rumiton (talk) 14:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I absolutely agree. Msalt (talk) 19:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
But I must disagree with your suggestion above that charities

might be expected to enrich their founders. If that is happening it is a perversion of the laws as they pertain to non-profit organisations and clearly wrong-doing. There are no grounds for suggesting Prem Rawat is guilty of this. Guilt by association again. Rumiton (talk) 02:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

There's no guilt to be associated with -- it's entirely legal in the United States. I don't know about other countries. Leaders of non-profit organizations are entitled to salaries and perks comparable to people in similar private orgaizations. Hence, the leaders of United Way, etc. make 6 or 7 figures a year, fly first class or in private jets, stay in expensive hotels, etc. It may offend those who donate money to these charities but it's entirely legal, on the theory that non-profits are entitled to compete fairly for executive talent with for-profit organizations. We don't punish working for the common good by (legally) requiring poverty. For many it does tend to work out that way though. Msalt (talk) 05:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
The issue, Msalt, is that Prem Rawat is not an executive of any of the many organizations that support his work. He receives no speaking engagement fees, honoraria, or royalties from the sales of materials based on his speeches, such as DVDs, CDs, books, etc. Nada, zilch. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
"He receives no" - needs to be matched with a statement of what he does receive, unfortunately the agencies engaged in this - Elan Vital Inc. and the Elan Vital Foundation do not publish those figures - merely the coda that "He does not etc". In this respect fly first class or in private jets, stay in expensive hotels, etc Msalt is absolutley correct to invoke the practices of US Non Profits. Rawat may not be an Excutive of any organisation but he is treated as an 'executive speaker' by Elan Vital which funds his travel by private jet and luxury hotel stays.

--Nik Wright2 (talk) 16:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

What is the problem with that? You are welcome to add sources from the Elan Vital website in which this is covered: ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing legally wrong with luxury accommodations and resources (helicopters, etc.) of non-profits being used by the employees of the organization, as I've said. Not being a lawyer, I don't know if this would be complicated by the fact that the individual does NOT work for the organizations, as Jossi and others say. There would be a real question of quid pro quo; these organizations clearly are receiving a large benefit from having Prem Rawat speak; how many would show up if he did not speak, live or by satellite? If they are providing luxuries in return, and he is not an employee, it certainly sounds like he should be declaring the market value of the accommodations and such that he receives (use of jet aircraft, etc.) as in-kind income. Legality aside, there is frequently controversy about these practices particularly with non-profit organizations receiving charitable donations. Congress is currently investigating several fundamentalist Christian speaker/authors for their use of luxuries provided by charitable organizations they are connected with. Bottom line: controversial, no reliable sources, doesn't belong on page (pro or anti). Msalt (talk) 18:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
When has Elan Vital Inc. or EVF ever published figures regarding the annual exenditure on Rawat's International travel ? EVI hides behind its Church designation to avoid publishing its Form 990 declarations and EVF hides behind Swiss confidentiality Laws. All there is available in the public domain is the same coda repeated endlessly by the supporting organisations, saying what Rawat doesn't receive. There is nothing in the Source you quote that would add to this article, just more self serving promotion. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 17:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
You asked the question, not me. And please do not use this page to advocate your opinions, see WP:NOT#SOAP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

What kind of bizzare resonse is that ? You asked What is the problem with that? and quoted a source. I replied with an explanation of what is wrong - and an assessment of the Source you gave. So if I reply in terms you don't like I'm breaking the rules ? If I assess a Source that you have given, as "not valid", that's advocating my opinion and in breach of WP:NOT#SOAP ? Sounds like WP:WL to me, but that's just my opinion.

--Nik Wright2 (talk) 17:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The quote says " financial independence of Maharaj Ji, which he enjoys through the generosity of his devotees". Not "donations". The fact is Rawat is like a busker, he lectures and teaches for free and only receives what people freely give him after he has performed.Momento (talk) 03:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
The fact is Rawat is like a busker, he lectures and teaches for free and only receives what people freely give him after he has performed. Do you have any evidence of this ? How is the collection done ? A busker works in public without any agency promoting her/him. Rawat 'gigs' by getting million dollar support from Non Profit and Charitable organisations, is it your contention that these organisations are helping Rawat acrue personal donations ? This would be an important addition to the WP article, please supply references. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 16:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Status of “Peace Is Possible”

not to be confused with ]

The “biography” by Andrea Cagan is used a for ten references in the current article, 10.5% of the numbered footnotes.

During the same year that Andrea Cagan's premie book was published, she also authored a book called The Loved Dog: The Playful, Nonaggressive Way to Teach Your Dog Good Behavior ISBN 1416938141. Perhaps she should be invited to contribute here :-) 147.114.226.172 (talk) 16:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The status of Cagan’s work is brought into question here : http://www.prem-rawat-critique.org/prem_rawat_followers_exposed.htm

From which:

"the book is in effect an ‘authorised’ biography procured by Rawat’s followers. The publisher of Peace is Possible is given as Mighty River Press which lists its address as P.O. Box 605 Dresher, PA 19025 US, its CEO’s name is given as J. Levin. No business with the name Mighty River Press is on record with the Pennsylvania State Corporations Register, however P.O. Box 605 Dresher, PA 19025 is given as the address of James Levin, President of a business called Neighborhood Restorations, vice President is given as Scott Mayo. The name Neighborhood Restorations appears as part of the title of a range of businesses of which the officers are James Levin and Scott Mazo.

An SEC filing says of Levin and Mazo:

The General Partner of the Operating Partnership is WPB L.P., a Pennsylvania limited partnership (the "General Partner") whose general partner is WPB II, Inc., a Pennsylvania corporation ("WPB II") which also serves as the Developer of the Apartment Complex. WPB II is equally-owned by James Levin and Scott Mazo. Mr. Levin, a Certified Public Accountant, has been involved with the development and syndication of tax credit projects since 1990. Mr. Mazo has been involved in the development of the tax credit projects since 1990 and commercial rental properties since the mid 1980's. Since forming a partnership in 1992, Mr. Levin and Mr. Mazo have developed over 350 units of affordable housing. Mr. Levin and Mr. Mazo are also the sole owners of Prime Property Management, Inc., a property management company which is serving as the Management Agent for the Apartment Complex. The name Scott Mazo appears on a FEC filing which lists Mazo as being Employed by Neighborhood Resorations, and which gives his home address as Gulph Mills. Scott Mazo is also the name of a Board Member and Treasurer of The Prem Rawat Foundation, details lodged with Guidestar give the address of Scott Mazo TPRF Board and Treasurer, as Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania.

In Summary:

James Levin is the CEO of the self described family business (Mighty River Press) i.e. Levin is the owner or is a co-owner of Mighty River Press. MRP is the publisher of the Rawat biography. Therefore Levin is, via the unregistered Mighty River Press, the publisher of Rawat’s biography.

James Levin has been the business partner of Scott Mazo for twenty years, they have more than thirty business listings in which they share partnerships.

Scott Mazo is the Treasurer of The Prem Rawat Foundation.

The relationship between Levin and Mazo undermines any suggestion that Peace is Possible has been published independently of Prem Rawat or his promoters. Its use as a reference for an encyclopedia is dubious, not because it is in effect an ‘authorised’ biography but because the ‘authorisation’ has been deliberately disguised.

End of extract

--Nik Wright2 (talk) 11:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The source is used for basic bio info (see list), which even if we accept your claim of lack of publishing independence, is still falls with what is permissible under WP:SELFPUB.
  1. Prem_Rawat#_ref-0 - Names of family members
  2. Prem_Rawat#_ref-Cagan.232_0 - Date of birth
  3. Prem_Rawat#_ref-Cagan.232_1 - That he tours extensively
  4. Prem_Rawat#_ref-9 - The name of the school he attended
  5. Prem_Rawat#_ref-23 - Date of marriage
  6. Prem_Rawat#_ref-33 (not sure what this one is for)
  7. Prem_Rawat#_ref-35 date of moving to Miami Beach with his family
  8. Prem_Rawat#_ref-Cagan_1 - Use of 707 for touring
  9. Prem_Rawat#_ref-38 piloting leased executive jets
  10. Prem_Rawat#_ref-73 Pilot licenses
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd say that the book is fine for basic biographical details (unless it contradicts other sources on these points), but that we should stay away from it for anything contentious, in keeping with this talk page's apparent philosophy of using only the most reliable sources. All of the references Jossi cited above seem appropriate. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 12:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi carelessly omits the most controversial of the references (currently number 83) to Cagan's book, and that is in the 'Personal' section, related to his income. The quote is "He received stock shares in corporations as gifts, which later generated significant dividends for him. Some of these companies were sold, generating substantial windfalls, and his profits were reinvested smartly. One particular company that developed large-scale software applications for government contractors went public, generating considerable wealth for Maharaji and his family". How Rawat acquired and maintains his wealth is probably the most controversial aspect of his life, so I propose this reference is removed. --John Brauns (talk) 18:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
It's not self-published by the subject unless it's published on his own website or by his company. This book is self-published by Mazo (if what is written above is true). Using a self-published book as a source for a living 3rd-party is not consistent with either WP:BLP or WP:V. Perhaps this is good time to ignore the rules so we can allow it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
OTOH, if the book makes contentious claims, such as mentioned by John Brauns, then we should probably treat it like any other 3rd-party vanity press book. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Can we get some agreement on this matter? Do we keep this book as a source or not? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Judging by the photos and speeches in it, it is an authorized biography. That would make it acceptable.Momento (talk) 06:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I've never seen the book. Is it called an "authorized biography" or is that just an opinion based on looking at it? I think we need to be fair here and hold all sources to similar standards. If Rawat writes an autobiography, or cooperates with an authorized biography that's one thing. But a self-published (aka "vanity) book is different. I can't see a logical reason to use a different standard for a book written by a current associate then for one written by a past associate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't say it "authorized" but it has personal photos and speeches in it that are copyrighted by Elan Vital. What then is your view of the unsourced photo of a Malibu house that has been in this article for days?Momento (talk) 07:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
See #Third Photo Thread for the thread about the photo of the house. This thread is about Peace Is Possible. However there is one analogy: This article has a copyrighted photo belonging to Google but that doesn't mean that the article is authorized by them. If the book meets the same standards we place on other sources then we should keep it, but I don't see anyone saying we should set a lower threshold because of its POV. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Can we get some agreement on this matter? Do we keep this book as a source or not?

No this can not be kept because it is not honest - either it IS an authorised biography, which means there should be a quotable entry in the book explaining that - or it is no more than a Vanity effort, self published by an individual who has close links to the subject, but who has deliberately obfuscated those links. Without a clear statement in the book itself about its status, it is untrustworthy. The book needs to be removed as a reference and as with any other WP article where an illegitiate source has been removed and which can not be replaced by alternative sources, the material in the article which is dependant on the removed source, will itself have to be removed. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 09:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


The framing of this discussion is out of whack. If we are not using this source for contentious claims, the source is valid. If there is a specific sentence in the article about which there is a dispute, we discuss that specific sentence and decide if to keep that specific cite or not. The attempt to remove a source entirely from an article, because someone thinks that it makes a contentious claim, is incompatible with common sense and with established guidelines. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
We normally don't allow self-published books to be used as sources for 3rd-parties. In the editing of this article sources have been held to the highest standards, which this book doesn't meet. At least one assertion from the book is contentious. Which established guidelines would have us use such a reference? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
WP:V, policy. On the other hand your contention ("We normally don't allow self-published books to be used as sources for 3rd-parties") is not how it is phrased in WP:V. If this source is "self-published", then it is self-published under auspicies of Prem Rawat himself (then it can be used); if it isn't published under auspicies of Prem Rawat, then it is a secondary source, and it can be used. Probably, it is somewhere in between (with the role of Prem Rawat in the publication process somewhat unclear): it can, at least, be used on general biographical facts. Even if other sources contradict such data, it can still be used in the form of: "this source says so-and-so; that source says so-and-so". There is no WP policy disallowing to use it as a source in the Prem Rawat article. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
BTW, one of our major guiding principles in selecting what we put in the article and what we don't is WP:NPOV, not the reasonings of http://www.prem-rawat-critique.org/prem_rawat_followers_exposed.htm - if they think they're better placed to say how an encyclopedia article should be written, they should simply do so, and not lecture on it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. WP:V says: "Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons..." This is a self-published source. The publisher isn't Prem Rawat. Therefore he's a 3rd-party. That's pretty much Misplaced Pages 101. If we had a source saying it's an official biography published under the auspices of the subject then that might change things, but we don't. All we have is a Misplaced Pages editor who's looked through it and said it appears to him to be an authorized bio. That's original research - again, Misplaced Pages 101. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
You see: you inverted the wording:
  • We normally don't allow self-published books to be used as sources for 3rd-parties (your paraphrase)
  • Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons (real WP:V)
...they can be used, not as "third-party sources", but still as "self-published sources" for those living persons, subject to WP:V#Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
As for the real question of this section (Status of “Peace Is Possible”), I'd treat it with the same status as a hagiographic resource, similar (for example) to how Jean de Joinville's biography of Saint Louis is used in the Misplaced Pages article on that person (see Louis IX of France#Sources). Now that biography was by all means "self-published", and also not written by the king who is the subject of that article. Many details on that king's life are derived from that hagiographic account. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The press release announcing the publication of Peace is Possible is produced on of The Prem Rawat Foundation's web site.Momento (talk) 20:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Francis, the book is self-published by Mazo and Levin, and can be used as a reference about them. Prem Rawat is a third-party. If Rawat writes an autobiography and has it self-published then we can use it as a source about him, but not about other people. The Prem Rawat Foundation is yet another entity, and I don't see the relevance of a press release on their website. Prem Rawat has no offical ties to the foundation that I can see. It may exist to further his teachings but it's not controlled by him. Finally, Saint Louis died long ago so the issues aren't comparable. Herodotus may have been self-published, but that isn't germane to this discussion either. Will Beback NS (talk) 02:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't quite follow this discussion. I thought a self-published book is one that the author has published themselves (the implication being that no one apart from the author considered it worth publishing). The author, in this case, is Andrea Cagan, a reasonably successful biographer. The book is published by Mighty River Press. According to their website, this title is currently the only book they have published. But in what sense does this make the book self-published? It was not published by Cagan. Granted, there seems to be a clear link between the publisher and the subject. But would this, for example, mean that an official biography of the pope, written by an outside biographer and published by a publishing house with strong links to the Catholic Church, would be inadmissible as a source in Misplaced Pages? Am I missing something? -- 172.189.122.83 (talk) (Jayen466) 15:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I think you have missed nothing, 122.83. The problem is that the book says that Prem Rawat was gifted with (presumably) a lot of money, shares etc. when he arrived in the west as a child, and the money was well invested to provide a high quality lifestyle for him and for his family today. All sources agree that he does not ask for money, either for teaching the knowledge techniques, or for his public appearances, or as donations. Maybe some people still personally contribute to him, maybe none do. We don't know, and it is nobody's business except theirs. Some anti-Prem Rawat editors here are trying to discredit the book so as to keep the issue unresolved and create a suspicion of money grabbing. Rumiton (talk) 16:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Rumiton either provide evidence of your claim or withdraw your remarks about 'anti Rawat editors' - otherwise you are in breach of ]

--Nik Wright2 (talk) 10:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

If the book is not self-published, which appears in doubt, the next trhreshold it must meet is reliability. I gather that some sources have been rejected because they were not "scholarly". All source, whether positive, negative, or neutral, should be held to a consistent standard. If this book meets that standard then it should be included. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I have read the book, and it is by far the most exhaustive biography ever published. The Author's Note reads: Finally, after reviewing thousands of pages of interviews and media clippings, watching many of his taped addresses, and speaking to a multitude of people who knew him during different phases of his life, a picture began to emerge. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, you are being dishonest. You know that Cagan did not interview a single former follower of Rawat for the book. She did not interview Mike Finch who organised Rawat's first trip outside India. She did not interview Saphlanand, Rawat's first western mahatma. She did not interview Mike Dettmers, who ran Divine Light Mission. She did not interview Anth Ginn who taught Rawat's children. She did not interview any of the people who have written their stories for ex-premie.org. She did not interview any of the owners of critical websites. Exhaustive? If you wanted to illustrate your deep bias you could not have done so more clearly than that remark.--John Brauns (talk) 03:05, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
You could have made your point without personal attacks. I only stated what the author said. I would appreciate, if in the future, you avoid making value judgments on other editors, unless you want so say something nice. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, you, not the author, described the book as 'by far the most exhaustive biography ever published'. Will you withdraw that claim and admit it is wrong? If not then the description of you as dishonest is simply a statement of fact.--John Brauns (talk) 09:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The taunting has gone far enough... You and others are, yet again, creating a toxic atmosphere in this talk page. I will not respond to the baiting. I made my opinion of the book know and reserved to myself my opinion on yourself So you can make your opinions know in a productive manner, and stop and calling them 'facts'. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Can we agree on treating the Cagan book as a hagiographic account, as I suggested above? Does anyone need an explanation on the meaning of the word hagiographic? (If needs, I'd try to explain further) Does anyone need further explanation on how to go about with hagiographic sources in Biographies of living persons (BLP)? If needs, we should maybe elaborate on that: WP:BLP does not contain direct information on that type of sources, as far as I can see (the division between "third party sources" and "self-published sources" is too coarse for hagiographic accounts, as they fall between these two categories of sources).

Can we also keep discussions on this page concentrated on what contributes to a better quality of the Prem Rawat article? I'd be very grateful! --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree on treating the Cagan book as a hagiographic account. Please keep your comments NPOV. Thanks.Momento (talk) 12:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The book is not an hagiography. Have you read it, Francis? If you have not, on what basis are you making this comment? The book is available in Amazon, get a copy and have the information you need to make an assessment on the type of book it is. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I didn't make a "comment", I asked some questions. And answers are coming in, tx. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Reading this Misplaced Pages description of the modern meaning of 'Hagiography' I would say that Cagan's book 'Peace is Possible' is plainly 'uncritical' and even 'reverential' and therefore qualifies as hagiographical. Jossi why do think otherwise? Why is it NOT hagiographical?
The term "hagiography" has come to refer to the works of contemporary biographers and historians whom critics perceive to be uncritical and even "reverential." For example, critics of historian (and John F. Kennedy associate) Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. often call him a "Kennedy hagiographer."PatW (talk) 19:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I was just going to post something similar. Jossi why would you consider Cagan's book to have objective critical aspects to it and not reverential? I have not read it, I could, but a short explanaition would be preferable, thanks. David D. (Talk) 19:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The book is not reverential at all. There is plenty of controversy covered, such opposition to his father, the opposition he faced in India as a child-guru from the Arya Samaj, the controversy about his mother and elder brother turning on him, how that affected him and was hospitalized, how some anarchists at his first appearance in France, threw egss and tomatoes at him, questions posed to him in the Griffin show about him being wealthy, and much more. Most definitively not a "reverential" presentation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

"questions posed to him in the Griffin show about him being wealthy" – interesting, could we have anything about that in the article? Imho has the advantage also that Cahan wouldn't be the only source. Also, when there is criticism about him being wealthy, contained in the Prem Rawat article, I'd like to hear the man himself about it. Jossi, or anyone else having the book, could you give a useful excerpt? And another question, what year are we speaking for this Griffin show? --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

On November 28, 1973, a few weeks after the event, Maharaji appeared on The Merv Griffin Show on television, where he fielded questions with great confidence. Merv asked him, "Are you rich?" Maharaji smiled and replied, “I am absolutely rich, the richest man in the world probably. Because you don't have to be rich in money to be rich. You have to be rich in heart." (p193)

We could try and find the transcript of the show. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Jossi says: The book is not reverential at all. There is plenty of controversy covered, such opposition to his father etc.
Reporting that Rawat was the subject of controversy does not really amount to fairly covering it does it? This book only comments from the perspective of Cagan (who I gather was commissioned indirectly by Rawat to write this biography - she's hardly going to write an unflattering book is she?) Fine but where in this book is the perspective of these critics represented? She did not interview any it would seem. Jossi is possibly only telling half the story when he says that Cagan covers plenty of controversy. It's kind of kind of a half-truth. I still think that this book is in effect self-published and indeed technically hagiograhical but I am not bothered by the actual use of it here so far. I just think it tells us that Rawat wants to keep control of 'the telling of his story' and this book is simply another example of how his wealth permits him to do so. I am personally uncomfortable with people who can effectively buy credibility and avoid accountability through sheer wealth. There was an occasion a few years back when an interview with Rawat appeared in a corporate glossy mag in the US. This interview was flaunted by premies I know here in the UK as some kind of proof of his credibility which bothered me...they actually believed that this magazine had approached Rawat for an interview. Out of curiosity I picked up the phone and by luck got straight through to the CO of the mag. Even I was rather taken aback to find him in a spate of intense annoyance and repentance, furious to have discovered that the entire interview was more or less fictitious in that it was a paid for 'advertorial' (apparently without his knowledge or consent), and with Q's and A's contrived and supplied by Rawat's organisation and presented falsely as a genuine interview. He told me that the standards of his paper had been, in his opinion, compromised and that the editor in question was being reprimanded. He was utterly apologetic and was at pains to say that his paper would never make the same mistake again. I put the phone down feeling rather sorry for him ...what I had suspected was evidently correct. So it's all very well painting the picture that Rawat is globally well-respected but it's rather underhand to illustrate this with examples of accolades or seemingly frank interviews which turn out to have been bought and very far from open and fair. I am not trying to engender suspicion at all. I am simply saying that Misplaced Pages should be careful not tolerate similar pretentiousness and that we should be on guard against this kind of self-promotion posing as proof of someone's notability.PatW (talk) 19:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow, a lot of words here. Let's aim for consensus. Jossi and Rumiton, do you dispute that this book was published by a one-time publisher with close ties to Rawat? Evidence has been presented that it is not an independent effort, unlike the scholarly and journalistic works relied on elsewhere in this article, and I see no rebuttal. PatW and JohnBrauns, do you agree that this work is OK for non-controversial biographical details, even if it is (arguably) hagiographic? If so, then we can agree to disagree on hagiography and move on.
I see only two places where this book used as a source that are or could be controversial. My compromise proposal would be that we keep the source for everything else, don't use it in these two places, and drop the points if they don't have other verifiable sources. Those points are 1) the source of Rawat's money (as discussed above); and 2) the fact that he pilots his own rented jets around places. The latter point is tangential at best and clearly serves mainly to portray Rawat in an impressive light. It's already very close to NPOV if not over the line, and certainly shouldn't be in this article without a rock solid source. Msalt (talk) 00:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this with some reservation that this does not become the thin end of the wedge. There is quite a lot of controversial stuff in the book that (if my memory serves me well) people wanted to include which was objected to. It may have been a reference to the so-called 'hate group' of ex-premies although I don't exactly remember.PatW (talk) 01:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Apparently there are no objections, so I'm going to go ahead and remove Cagan as a reference for the two controversial points I listed above. Since the remaining text is either unreferenced or an apparent WP:SYN effort to make points, I'm removing it too. There was also some unnecessary detail (a list of cities he spoke in in 1980?! Imagine if we listed such things for every public figure!!) so I summarized it. Msalt (talk) 20:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Apparently, you are making a mistake. You cannot claim consensus for removal when there is none. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Voices as diametrically opposed as John Brauns and Rumiton -- as well as all of the less involved editors I have see who discuss it -- agree on using this book for only non-controversial points. Jossi, you yourself said in this section "If we are not using this source for contentious claims, the source is valid.". I don't see how this is not a consensus.
Now I grant you that I acted on that consensus in ways that are less accepted, but I announced my intention in advance with clear reasoning, the only comment was grudging agreement, and as I read it the WP:BLP policy demands that editors immediately remove unsourced or poorly sourced material. It encourages shorter rather than longer articles where controversy exists.
So this only issue is, are these points controversial? Well here we are arguing about them. Isn't that by definition controversial? Msalt (talk) 19:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, apparently there is a consensus on only using Cagan's book for non-controversial biographical information. You yourself claimed that it was being used in that way above. I don't see anyone objecting. The reference to Rawat's source of income is without doubt controversial, so what possible objection could you have to its removal? --John Brauns (talk) 01:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I certainly didn't mean to claim anything unwarranted. Did you have an objection to limiting this source to non-controversial points? I proposed that as a compromise to get past miles of contentious discussion, and following your own words (I thought.) Please accept my apologies if I misinterpreted your words, and if you could offer an alternative course of action or at least an alternative understanding of the verifiability of this book, that would be very helpful. Msalt (talk) 01:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The reference to Rawat's source of income is without doubt controversial? Why? There multiple sources that describe these sources of income: Cagan's book, his own biography (1999), the Prem Rawat Foundation site, and others. Are you saying that all these sources are controversial? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Two separate issues here, but the answer to both is yes. 1) The source of Rawat's income is controversial. It's argued at great length here on the Talk page, #here we go again and of course in the current section. In the article itself, his sumptuous lifestyle is mentioned in the lede, and allegations that money was diverted to Rawat's personal use are in the criticism section. 2) The sources you list are all controversial as well, as none are independent. As I read the various policies, none are acceptable in this article for that reason, except for "his own biography" if you mean an autobiography. And if we use that as a source, I suggest that the point more reasonably belongs as Rawat's response to the criticism, in the Criticism section, language to the effect of "Rawat responds that all of his money comes from....." etc. and using the autobiography as the source. Msalt (talk) 18:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
If we assume that this book is an authorized biography, as some have suggested, then it's likely that all three sources you mention are essentially the same. None of them are independent of the subject. It may be appropriate to include the assertions so long as they are attributed. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Will, you are correct - none of the three sources are independent, and Rawat's wealth has to be the most controversial issue of his entire life, so self-published sources should not be used for this issue as in --John Brauns (talk) 08:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)WP:Selfpub.
The author is Andrea Cagan, a successful biographer, and the publisher is Mighty River Press. It is not a self-published book in the sense of WP:SPS. What does appear to have been demonstrated is that the publisher has strong links to Prem Rawat. I would be in favour of Will's solution, which is to include the information, but with attribution that makes clear the link between the publisher and the subject. Perhaps we could refer to the book as a "semi-official biography". -- Jayen466 16:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Will, I have not problems with having any text that needs it to be attributed to the source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 08:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, several of us are making attempts at a consensus or compromise position on this issue. From what I've seen, you are resisting these efforts without offering any counter-suggestion or even explaining why you don't agree. This makes it difficult to move forward. We need some points of agreement to build upon. Can you please clarify your position on these issues?

Do you agree there is a consensus on using the Cagan book for only non-controversial points?

Do you agree that the Cagan book has not been demonstrated to be an independent, third party source?

Do you agree that Rawat's wealth or material lifestyle is a controversial issue?

Do you agree that the source of Rawat's wealth or material lifestyle is a controversial issue?

Thank you.Msalt (talk) 18:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The original source of his wealth is well covered by multiple sources (as per the article text), there is no dispute on that aspect. So why it would be controversial to quote sources about today's sources of income? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
It would be tremendously helpful to the cause of consensus if you could agree to something, anything, that we could build on as common ground. The whole concept of using Cagan for only non-controversial points came from your words. Is there some reason you are denying us this favor?
As for the original source of his wealth, I don't know the subject as well as you obviously, but from reading the article I don't see that his original source of wealth is self evident either. His father was a successful teacher, so that's one possible source; his followers were good to him, that's another. It's not clear when investments may have kicked in. We do know that his wealth and lifestyle have been controversial from very early in his presence in the U.S. and to this day. People here on both sides of the issue are arguing about whether he accepts donations, whether he charges for his works, whether he indirectly encourages or discourages gifts, whether the word "gifts" or "donations" is more appropriate. There are multiple Talk page sections devoting to arguing over the issue. It is clearly controversial. We're arguing about it as we speak!
Everyone in this debate, starting with yourself, seems to accept that Cagan is not valid as a source for controversial issues. The BLP section clearly states that verifiable sources must be independent and third-party; even the most fervent pro-Rawat editors here don't claim Cagan's publisher is. In fact, they are trying to justify the book under self-publishing or autobiography (which doesn't work either, because for SPL the authorship is in doubt, and autobiography that is not SPL again needs to be published by an independent, third-party publisher.) Msalt (talk) 05:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
You maye have missed some threads above. Here are some quotes about sources of wealth:
Maeve's quote Maharaj Ji was now sixteen years old. He had the knowledge that his personal following in the West was well established. It is likely that he felt the time had come to take the reins of power from his mother, who still dominated the mission and had a strong hold over most of the mahatmas, all of whom were born and brought up in India. Another factor may well have been the financial independence of Maharaj Ji, which he enjoys through the generosity of his devotees.
Price's quote: . Another factor may well have been the financial independence of Maharaj Ji, which he enjoys through the generosity of his devotees.
Hunt's quote Leaving his more ascetic life behind him, he does not personally eschews material possessions. Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers.
So the source of his wealth, was from the "generosity of his devotees". These sources are already used in the article. Can you then explain to me why do you consider the fact that he maintains his wealth as a private investor to be controversial? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, the controversial aspect is the implication that he is no longer supported by the generosity of his devotees. I know for a fact that he is, although I also accept that his income partly comes from return on investments. Unfortunately, there are no reliable sources for how much income is from each source. --John Brauns (talk) 15:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I know for a fact that he is, really? In any case, as you said there is no sources available to support that claim, and we have his bio, the Prem Rawat website, and Cagan's book (in particular, given details about these investments), so I do not see the problem here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, there are lots of things you know for a fact that could not be included in a Misplaced Pages article because the source of your information does not satisfy Misplaced Pages rules. I know that Rawat's supporters continued to give him money well after the period Cagan refers to because they have told me they do (with pride I might add) and as they were good friends I believe them. --John Brauns (talk) 00:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
If it's not controversial, then why are his investments even mentioned in his article? We don't discuss Robert Bly's investment strategies. I don't want to repeat myself, Jossi, but there are thousands of words on this talk page devoted to arguing about whether Rawat is currently getting money from devotees, whether he charges for speeches, even whether "gift" or "donation" is the right word for money he receives. It is clearly controversial, and declaring that he receives income from investments is clearly a point made in the service of this debate. You must see the irony of arguing that our current argument doesn't exist? Msalt (talk) 19:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry. Msalt, but I do not understand your point. Yes, there are thousands of words in talk, because some people believe this to be controversial, when it is not. The sources are unequivocal, why don't we stick to the sources we have? Why would not be appropriate to say that he never charged (past and present) for teaching the Techniques of Knowledge? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
We are well beyond logic and reason when you can say "there are thousands of words of argument about this, because some people think it's controversial, when it's not." I have no further words to describe the absurdity therein. Or I suppose it could be condescension -- you who disagree don't count, all of us who matter agree -- but I prefer not to think that is your point.
The sources are NOT unequivocal. The only source provided is one that by consensus is not independent and reliable enough for controversial points. If we are to allow such sources, I will bet folding money that John Brauns and PatW can bring in other sources that are not independent or reliable enough, but which clearly state that Rawat is supported by gifts from devotees. The number of RELIABLE sources to settle the question is zero. Therefore, we should not be making statements about the source of his current income one way or the other in the article. Can you show me any other bio of a comparable speaker/author that discusses their income source oustide of a controversy? There are hundreds to choose from. Msalt (talk) 06:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the subject's business interests are irrelevant to this article; not contentious, not even interesting, just irrelevant. It is a ploy to say "This must be contentious, for here I am arguing about it." Reputable sources are not arguing about it. They agree that he asks nobody for money, ever. And John, I would suggest that while your friends may think of themselves as giving money to Prem Rawat, they are probably giving it to support a propagation campaign, local events, TPRF aid program or similar. I have heard people use the term "giving money to Maharaji" for all these things. Decades ago it was deliberately made impossible to give money to Prem Rawat personally, unless you happen to meet him somewhere and thrust an envelope into his hands. Rumiton (talk) 02:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no need to attack me by calling my argument a "ploy", especially when it constitutes the most basic kind of common sense. There are no reputable sources on the table whatsoever for the current source of Rawat's income, so saying that "reputable sources are not arguing about it" has no meaning. Reputable sources are not discussing the source of his current income at all, so this article should not discuss it either. Msalt (talk) 06:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I thought I was agreeing with you, Msalt. There are no sources unconnected to the subject saying anything about his finances at all. No contentions. No nothing. I take your point, and no doubt stand corrected, about the charities remuneration thing in the US. I think in Australia we are living in a more innocent time. High living by charity founders would leave us collectively aghast. Anyway, it is clear that Prem Rawat is not in any material way connected to the running of TPRF. Rumiton (talk) 12:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I see and appreciate a lot of agreement. I was just objecting to the characterization of my argument as a "ploy", if I read you right. I may be utterly wrong about everything I write but (to the limits of my self-awareness) my arguments are sincere and earnest. It seemed like an unnecessarily personal attack. If I misinterpreted, I apologize. Msalt (talk) 21:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

No Consensus

Several editors have claimed that there is consensus to use the Cagan book for non controversial references. That consensus has by no means been reached.

The problem with the Cagan book is that it is not honestly presented. Is it self published ? Is it authorised ? Is it a commissioned work ? If so who commissioned it and on whose behalf ? Without clarity over its status, any reference to the Cagan book whether concerning controversial issues or not, places the referencer (in this case WP) in a dubious position. The work must at least be recommendable as a reference in its own terms, but if those terms are obscure how can it be recommendable ? ] raises an argument on this page regarding another putative source, I’m not sure that I agree with the argument, but if it is applied to one source it must be applied to all:

Well, as far as I can see, the site owners remain anonymous: Could I sue the site owners like I could sue a publisher for publishing defamatory information? If the answer to the question is no (and I think it is), then that means the site does not have enough encyclopedic standing to be used as an external link. The reason being that whoever posts the information is not in practice prepared to vouch for its accuracy; if the same information could be found in a printed book, with a named publisher and author, it would be a different matter. -- Jayen466 00:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Although the Cagan book has a named publisher, no legal entity appears registered under the given name, and while an individual is named as the CEO of the named publisher, unless some legal entity exists, there is no functional position of CEO. Clearly Cagan is a named author but it is not clear what her status actually is. If she was commissioned by some individual to prepare material provided for publication, Cagan’s role would not be that of an orginating writer but that of a sub editor or copywriter whose own legal responsibility could be considered subordinate to the commissioning party. And the Commissioning party is entirely anonymous in which case to use Jayen466’s words whoever posts the information is not in practice prepared to vouch for its accuracy.

At the very minimum the short comings of the Cagan book as a reference must be clearly flagged in any use in Wikiedia, but even then the book should be only used where absolutely no other source is available.

--Nik Wright2 (talk) 16:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I proposed the compromise of using Cagan for only non-controversial points as a consensus -- following Jossi's wording -- as a way to sidestep the thrash over the Cagan book. But I'm afraid the consensus is falling apart because of what I consider the insistence of several editors on squeezing controversial points through the loophole.
If we have to address Cagan directly, then I agree with Nik Wright2 that it is not a verifiable or reliable source under various policies, not so much for the anonymity (maybe that too) but mainly because it is not independently published. Even to qualify under the autobiography exemption, a book needs to be published by an independent third party publisher, and this book clearly is not. At the same time it does not fall under the self-publishing exemption because someone other than Rawat wrote it, and at best the authorship is not clear (another violation.)
I consider Cagan comparable to the Randi book -- tolerable in the short run as we try to move towards some kind of consensus, but needing to be replaced at the first opportunity. And ultimately, neither source should really be relied on in this article, in my opinion. I happen to think that deleting the text based on either book at the moment would be provocative and a sign of bad faith. There is a policy somewhere (sorry, I'm wiped out) about giving people time to find better sources instead of just deleting. I would put the various points sourced by either of these books in that category. But hey, let's spend our time finding those better sources instead of thrashing, and then we won't have to worry about it. Msalt (talk) 22:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Teachings

I have removed the statement about the positive effects of meditation. It doesn't really fit into a section on Prem Rawat's teaching, and could constructively be placed in a section or a new entry on the benefits of meditation. Armeisen (talk) 07:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree.Momento (talk) 07:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Based on the consensus here, I am going to edit the teachings section further to focus on what the teachings are, while removing claims of the benefits or harms they might cause. Listing lots of benefits of the Teachings does not illustrate them, is not encyclopedic and reflects a non-neutral POV. There is nothing neutral about describing premies as " finding benefits such as increased energy levels, an increased awareness of coincidences and a tendency to see them as divine interventions, as well as improvements in their marriage and work life." That would be like an article on Mercedes-Benz cars saying that "Mercedes drivers love the hand-craftmanship, superior handling and status they receive while driving the cars." It might very well be true, and documented by verifiable sources, but it has no place in an encyclopedia.
The fact that one can find a source does not change the fact that this is OR, or to be more exact, WP:SYN. On the other hand, the material about the historical tradition in which Rawat's teachings arose is fascinating AND the very model of what an encyclopedia should provide. Msalt (talk) 06:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Agree.Momento (talk) 06:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Certainly. I think there should be a summary that explains that practitioners DO experience subjective benefits, but the fondling phrases should disappear. If they have not already. Rumiton (talk) 10:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. I'm sure we can find practitioners claiming detrimental effects as well, but I don't think such subjective analyses have any place here. I think we can presume that an author/speaker has a career because those who read or listen to them find some benefit from their words; it doesn't need to be spelled out. Again, look at comparable speaker/authors. Tom Peters' article could certainly list verifiably sourced examples of companies that profited in dollar terms from adopting his recommendations, but that would clearly be non-encyclopedic advertising. And of course there is nothing like that in his article. Msalt (talk) 18:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Early 70s Time article

I have taken out "...kissed his feet when they were in his presence". Redundant and unencyclopedic. They could not kiss his feet when they were not 'in his presence."

I don't know whether this edit was done by a premie or not but it is certainly the sort of weasely way that premies argue they should change original wordings. Why? Because what 'in his presence' tells us is that at the time (1970s) there was a 'lingo' in effect which had real meaning. In this case it strongly hints to us that Rawat's presence was considered something special and indeed sacred (as it most certainly was and still is to this day). In short, it emphasises the fact that people used to worship him as Divine which is exactly want premies now want to hide. This is a perfect example of how re-wording can produce an entirely different meaning and whoever suggested this change please tell us who you are and whether you accept my point.PatW (talk) 12:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Jossi what do you think about this? Come on, you're kind of referee here. Why do you think someone would want to change that wording? Do you approve of this sort of logic?PatW (talk) 12:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I am nor referee, Pat. I see that the text now does not show "in his presence", because it is obvious. Seems a good argument to me. The article is in Time magazine, which I doubt have had any "lingo" related to darshana. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm amazed you've missed the point. It's not that subtle. So how much re-interpretation can you tolerate Jossi? Can you not see that this amounts to toning down the meaning to add to the impression that Rawat was LESS worshipped and 'revered' than he was? Your turning a blind eye amounts to favouring your POV since we all know that that this article has been plagued with controversy about Rawats perceived divinity and who was responsible for that. PatW (talk) 23:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The original text from TIME is:
  • The Maharaj Ji's mother and three older brothers literally worship him, kissing his "lotus feet" whenever they are in his presence.
The key word there appears to be "whenever". In other words, they did so every time they saw him. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Another key word is "lotus" that should be included.Momento (talk) 20:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Will, whenever they 'saw him' and whenever they 'were in his presence' have quite different meanings. How many people do you know who you would say 'when I am in your presence' to? Most people that I know would think I was fawning or mad if I said that. Can I just make a strong request here that people understand that altering the language of quotes and paraphrasing like this is not innocent because the sum of the many such revisions and modern interpretations of original language amounts to giving the reader a very different impression of the relationship that Rawat had with his devotees than was implicit in the original language. It's just more weasely revisionism. Please can people just put stop this habit.PatW (talk) 22:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I think you might be bending things a bit here, Pat. Seems you want the article to show the recently-out-of-India period in the weirdest possible light. Time didn't claim they said "when I am in your presence" to their son/brother, or that anyone ever said that. That was the reporter's way of describing the situation. The family foot kissing itself is unwestern and startling enough, without the titillating, redundant and unencyclopedic modifier. Rumiton (talk) 02:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I am so not bending anything Ruminton. Now you're trying to distract from your POV pushing by blaming me! It's you who have altered the meaning, not me for goodness sake. Let's get this straight..You are the one who thinks that the reporter is casting the situation in 'the weirdest possible light' not me. And I have changed nothing. I happen to think that the reporters words perfectly reflect the mood and lingo of the time. If you think the truth was LESS weird then a) that's simply your POV and b) you are quite out of place to tone down any 'weirdness' or emphasis implicit in his report. You're way out of place to censor a reporters words because you don't like the way he put things. Your also way out of place to act upon your POV that he was being inappropriately 'titillating'. That is simply none of your business. As anyone who was there at the time will confirm, it was totally commonplace for followers to say blissed-out things like 'when I'm in Maharaji's presence' and everyone talked about him in highly reverential terms. There is nothing titillating or inaccurate about reporting that whatsoever. It's so obvious that you're trimming out all such language contemporary to the time, in an attempt to show it in a different light. If you think it looks too 'weird' that's again simply YOUR problem-not mine. Anyway, why are you uncomfortable to show Rawat's past in it's full 'weirdness'? It matters that the craziness of those times is NOT sanitised by you lot to suit Rawats new public image. This is not an advert for the 're-invented , reformed Rawat. Besides it's simply paranoia and fear from Rawat that he will be judged as having lapped up and encouraged people to worship him (which of course he did) and it's reprehensible to weasely brush all that under the carpet here. In short, I am not trying to show the 'out-of-India' period in a weird light - the reports of the time do that quite adequately without my intervention. ] (talk) 11:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

PS. It's also totally transparent that Jossi pretends that he thinks your arguments to cut out the lingo are 'good' (see his mystifying non-reasoning above) because actually he supports the POV pushing you are doing. This place has more weasels per square inch than Toad Hall! It's quite dizzying. PatW (talk) 11:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Deep breaths, Pat, deep breaths. I think it is right and inevitable that the way a social or religious phenomenon is described 35 years after its inception will be more mellow and mature than when it first appeared as a startling and apparently incomprehensible import. The better understanding we now have of the role of the guru in Indian culture, and especially of the Guru-shishya tradition illustrates this. What do you think? Rumiton (talk) 11:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I think you're trying to cast those times in such a way that it doesn't raise questions about how 'weird' it was because you are sheepish about admitting the extent to which Rawat himself subscribed to, and encouraged all that Indian God-man, Avatar stuff and all the supposedly 'respectable' tradition it was rooted in. There's no need for me to take a deep breath here Ruminton. I am perfectly clear about this. You, Jossi, Momento, Ron Geaves..who-ever you bring to the table spouting so-called 'mellow, mature, educated, kindly' descriptions of the Indian Guru culture, you will never be able to paint those times and events as wholly reasonable or healthy. It's always going to look pretty damn weird to modern, less religiously-inclined and frankly, more sensible and educated people. And I tend to agree with the Indian Government that their Guru Traditions should be drawn into question for the abusive effects they've clearly had on their populace over the centuries. (They have an active policy to expose fraudulant Gurus as it is a real problem there).

Even the most respected scholars (with the exception of wishful-thinking premie academic Mr Geaves) such as Mark Jurgensmeyer, are very clear that all these traditions are shot through with hypocrisy and prosaic power struggles and their books do not indulge in nostalgia or display sympathy for the beliefs of these traditions. To the contrary they generally offer de-mystifying, prosaic explanations for the sociological phenomena around this culture. I agree that we need better understanding of the Indian Cultural roots of Rawatism but I don't think that the way to go about it is to dress it up in respectable or sympathetic terms. I think it is a very bad start to be cutting out the 'informative' lingo from those times. Those times were replete with idiosyncratic colourful lingo and where they were described in such terms it should be left alone. There's nothing immature or sensationalist about retaining those descriptions - in fact it's important that you don't to try to justify or add respectability through any contrived 'mature or mellow' paraphrasing. 'PatW (talk) 12:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I am sympathetic to the attempt to tone the language down. We are dealing with a journalistic source here. A scholar of religion with some understanding of Indian religion would probably not have written that way. There is an undeniable Western cultural bias at work in the Time article, trading on the shock factor a Western audience feels about this kind of gesture.

Now, in India, touching the feet of a respected person is an everyday gesture. It is, and that is very difficult for Westerners to "get", no big deal. It's the West that has a problem with the gesture, because to the Western mind it feels masochistic and/or sexually loaded. The gesture has no such connotations in India. Translating it into a Western context, it is roughly equivalent to a handshake combined with a polite bow or curtsey, or, in a religious context, kneeling in front of your vicar and having his hands placed on your head. Staying with the Christian context, kissing the feet might be comparable to kissing the ring of a Cardinal. The thrill of deviancy that the Western mind feels upon reading such a description, and which such a description is designed to evoke, is really the result of cultural ignorance. To want to perpetuate this kind of thrill in Misplaced Pages is cheap.

We are taking due care in Misplaced Pages to call prostitutes "escorts" when that is how they wish to be referred to. We refer to male-born transsexuals as "she", out of basic human respect for the individual. We take care to ensure that we call ethnic or religious groups by the names that they prefer to use for themselves, rather than the terms that outsiders and critics would use for them. We are certainly not in the business of filling our articles about such groups with abusive terms that have been used about them. To me, to insist on this kind of sensationalist description of another group's religious practice is also a subtle kind of abuse. It flies in the face of everything that Misplaced Pages is about.

It is not much different from citing a source that says "negroes have huge, protruding lips". It is true, in a way, but still abusive, stupid and disrespectful. Mutatis mutandis, I suggest the same applies here, in a religious context. So I propose we lose the cultural bias and stick with a neutral description of the actions described. -- 172.189.122.83 (talk) (Jayen466) 22:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This is what I was trying to point towards, a mature and intercultural approach to the article. Thank you. Rumiton (talk) 04:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Exactly Jayen. It's well known that people in India don't use toilet paper but use their left hand and then wash it. I guess we should be grateful Time didn't say "Guru who doesn't use toilet paper" etc.Momento (talk) 04:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
This is political correctness gone mad. Just who are you trying to avoid offending here Jayen? Because frankly your attempt to categorise this mildly sensational news report as offensive racism is lame. It is sensationalism of the mildest type and could never be construed as offensive to Indians. I fact it is only offensive to premies who want to play down his once so important divine role which is why I ask who you are really trying to avoid offending here Jayen. Do you propose to cut out all language which reflects the historic fact that there was some surprise and questions raised that this man was worshipped as God? The fact is that devotees (including Rawats family, kissed his feet and worshipped him as God. It was NOT a casual greeting it was an affirmation of 'His' divinity and Rawat (then known as Guru Maharaj Ji-the 'Satguru') was cast in and accepted that role. How this suddenly becomes something you can't report accurately is highly questionable. By the way Jayen, are you a follower of this man too? PatW (talk) 09:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Pat, I feel you would do well in this debate to stop stigmatising people who hold a different opinion. None of us are idiots, none are brainwashed, we are just seeing and evaluating things differently. Rumiton (talk) 12:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
As an outside observer, I don't think your criticism fairly describes Pat W's comments, Rumiton. I don't see him stigmatising people, and the words "idiots" and "brainwashed" are yours, not his. He is not in this section "bending things"; he is simply advocating a direct quote of a verifiable source, rather than the admittedly neutralizing paraphrase you advocate. I don't find the original out of line at all; neither Time nor PatW deserve to be compared to blatantly offensive racist comments or described as "abusive, stupid and disrespectful" as Jayen did. And in my opinion, telling PatW to take "deep breaths" was condescending and disrespectful, Rumiton. No need for that.
Yes, PatW is showing a bit of emotion here, but so are the three people arguing against him, and to my eye his comments are more respectful and less personal than yours, Memento's and Jayen's. So let's focus on the issue at hand (I say realizing that I am precisely not doing that right now.) Msalt (talk) 23:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
See . Emotions are emotions, but these types comments should not be made here. He was already warned , and hope he will not do that again. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I certainly agree that the comment you cite is way out of line, and I hope no one makes comments like that again. I guess I didn't find "brain-washed" when I searched because of the hyphen. All the same, there has been a lot of discussion since then, and from what I see PatW has been behaving himself recently at least as well as Rumiton and Memento. Perhaps because of your remonstrance.
Given your stature on Misplaced Pages, and your much-discussed involvement with Rawat, it would be wonderful to see you put as much energy toward calming those editors who seem to be sympathetic with Rawat, as with those critical of him. "Deep breaths" is simply baiting; no one wants to hear that from an antagonist. "Abusive, stupid and disrespectful" is pretty darned close to a personal attack, even if it technically describes a comment rather than the person. Etc. Msalt (talk) 00:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Just who are you trying to avoid offending here Jayen? Isn't that obvious? The followers of Prem Rawat, in this case. Don't they deserve the same amount of concern as male escorts? Much of Misplaced Pages is still filled with transparent attempts to ridicule the beliefs and practices of religious minorities, or to create revulsion towards things or people that members of such minorities consider meaningful in the context of their religious lives. At times this is uncomfortably reminiscent of the mentality that created Judensau images on German cathedrals. In my view, Misplaced Pages has some catching up to do in this area, to bring it level with the concern shown to other groups. Note that this does not mean that I propose to ban mention of views that ridicule religious groups in Misplaced Pages. However, such views should go into a "Reception" or "Criticism" section, and come with attribution. They have no business in the main part of an article, which should be written in as neutral and factual tone as possible, without the salacious addition of titillating information.
On a more practical note, of the three references following the phrase "his mother and three older brothers kissed his feet as a demonstration of worship.", only one (18) seems to apply. I haven't been around this article long enough to see where the other references (17, 19) came from originally and whether they can simply be deleted, so I'll leave this to a more knowledgeable editor. Cheers, Jayen466 19:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Listen Jayen, You are simply imagining that this report is offensive to premies. The fact that you and they are demonstrating offence is what is inappropriate and questionable. There is a fine line between excluding genuine criticism and unnecessary use of bigoted reports which of course one has to be aware of, but in this case it is simply not bigoted or critical. The only word which has a sensational tone is 'literally' (which is kind of superfluous). Suddenly according to all of you, saying 'when they were in his presence' is deemed a bigoted comment rather than an innocent illustrative one . Why? Furthermore to cite the expression 'Lotus Feet' is also not condescending at all. That is what premies called his feet quite openly in those days. The fact seems to be that you sympathise with the premies new-found embarassment and desire to distance themselves from this culture which they once embraced, and you are prepared to let them tone down perfectly respectful descriptions of their past here. I question that an encyclopaedia is the place to support revisionism under the guise of wanting to not offend the sensitivities of a religious group in an inappropriate way. Next you'll argue that Misplaced Pages shouldn't report Scientology's former teachings about UFO's and disembodied spirits ec. because it's rude to talk about things they now are shy about. An encyclopaedia should not pander to the desire of reformed religious groups or any other groups desires to change history. By citing history you are not approving or endorsing it. To cut out the word 'prostitutes' from historical quotes because the derogatory meaning is now unacceptable is absurd. Also to cut out relevant, illustrative quotes where reporters use other derogatory terms such as 'Nigger' is also doing a disservice to all. Contrary to your opinion, there is NO merit in 'toning down' the language of the past. The present is a different matter. If premies don't want to be called 'devotees' now we naturally don't do that but we should not change the language of quotes from the time that refer to 'Maharaji's devotees'. Same with escorts, transsexuals, you name it. PatW (talk) 11:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Pat, I appreciate your thoughts. I still think that it was the right decision to tone down the wording and hope that you can live with it as it stands. We are using the Time article here simply as a source of historical fact, rather than as a source of historical colour. Such colour as there is in it, beyond the facts described, reflects the cultural attitudes of Time Magazine at that time, rather than the attitudes of Premies. As a purely hypothetical (and probably daft) example, if we had a historical verbatim from 18XX saying "There are about 100 niggers living on Mr Y's plantation" I should think we would not write, today, in an article on the historical person Mr Y, that he had about 100 niggers -- we would write, quite naturally, that from contemporary accounts it appears he had about 100 slaves. (By the way, I do think that many of the Scientology articles have been terminally strangled by anti-cult sentiment.)
References 17 and 19 are still there: since they do not back up the preceding sentence, I'll go and delete these now. Ref. 17 contains a longer text passage; it that is considered useful by anyone, please restore in the appropriate place. Cheers, Jayen466 23:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I do take your points and can live with the wording since it is not a direct quote. Of course it would be heinous to use the quote itself and change the wording. The Guardian newspaper here in the UK would love to hear that Misplaced Pages administrators approve of that as there quite a bit of criticism of Misplaced Pages there. I suppose what bothers me is that generally the 'colour' is so rigorously toned down so as to effectively not attract interest. I want the opposite of the 'strangulation' of the article by anti-cult sentiment. I want the encyclopaedically interesting facts to be presented here that naturally attract interest to Rawat as it is a subject that I would like to see fairly discussed and yes, questioned very publicly and openly. What I do not approve of is when articles about minority religions are controlled by themselves. This article probably has historically swung from a critical bias to the opposite extreme. The trouble is with cults is that when the facts about them do become fully known then anti-cult sentiments will naturally arise - why? because the public naturally disapproval of the abuses and evils that go on behind their closed doors. So if this article does become one day 'strangled' by public reaction then I won't be so surprised. But I agree that we should start by giving Rawat a very fair chance to account for himself. (Which is effectively what is happening via his followers here). Must dash.PatW (talk) 12:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Yep, the Guardian. You realise that according to the Guardian, all of us here are part of an exploitative cult too? The reality is much more mundane. Frequently, what is naively viewed as spontaneous generation is in fact the product of a relatively small number of people who have been induced to provide a huge amount of unpaid labour. The lifeblood of Misplaced Pages is selling heavy contributors a dream that their donated effort will give them the prestige of an academic. This is very clear in the Wikipedian's credo of "writing an encyclopedia". But all that'll happen is they will work for free, while elsewhere the Wikia investors will reap the rewards. But it's a powerful dream. If someone does something for love, there will always be those who claim that they must have been duped and brainwashed. As though people had no riches to give, and giving always made you poorer rather than richer. But there you go. Sorry for this off-topic remark. I am glad the passage is okay for you. Cheers, -- Jayen466 01:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I like you Jayen. You are a good person, and I shall tell you so shortly on your talk page. :-) Rumiton (talk) 10:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Jayen writes:If someone does something for love, there will always be those who claim that they must have been duped and brainwashed. As though people had no riches to give, and giving always made you poorer rather than richer. But there you go. Jayen, how many Misplaced Pages editors have been truly damaged by their voluntary work? How many people, on the other hand, who follow charismatic religious leaders later claim to have been damaged, or (as in the case of Jim Jones' followers) were significantly damaged? ie. they followed their leader to the grave. I hope you can see the distinction. I lovingly served Rawat from age 17, (1974) lived in his ashrams and dedicated my life to him as he recommended. My claims about the extent to which his teachings were unhealthy are well-considered and I don't appreciate the insinuation that people who make claims about having been brainwashed probably don't understand the principal that 'giving makes you richer.'
Your comment could appear very 'sweeping' and condescending towards those people who HAVE been seriously affected by their giving. I know of very genuinely motivated premies who gave their entire incomes and inheritances to Rawat and who now regret it. Others like myself simply gave our time and gave up things that Rawat recommended we should - like having a career and relationships etc. That was the rules of joining his Ashram. There are plenty of people who in retrospect feel that Rawat has actively avoided responsibility for encouraging that level of 'giving' and that modern day premies help whitewash the period during which he demanded very considerable sacrifice. The bulk of the criticism towards Rawat is from people who have discovered that there was a good deal of hypocrisy and coverup from Rawat which indicated that he was cynical towards their genuine commitments and sacrifices. Since you confess to concern that premies are not offended here, perhaps you could extend that concern towards the victims of Prem Rawat too.
Ruminton is excited about your 'goodness'. I shouldn't be too flattered. There is nothing good if you lean towards casting criticism towards Rawat as flippant or support any viewpoint that former premies were not genuinely motivated and have missed the benefits of 'Knowledge' as a result.PatW (talk) 13:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Pat, you ask, how many Misplaced Pages editors have been truly damaged by their voluntary work? The contribution lists of some high-volume editors show that they have spent 10 to 18 hours a day editing Misplaced Pages, making 100-200 edits per day, for months on end. It could surely be argued that this must be having severe effects on their social and family life, as well as their ability to earn a living. It is conceivable that such editors might in some years' time be disaffected and blame Misplaced Pages for the fact that they missed a significant part of their lives, without much to show for it (unlike the "Wikia investors", to follow the Guardian's tack).
I believe it is somewhat unfair to compare Prem Rawat to Jim Jones; just like there have been political leaders in countries around the world who have been murderous and corrupt, this does not make all of them so.
I appreciate you sharing your personal history. I understand your regret and have not and would not make the accusation that your disenchantment is due to any personal shortcoming of yours. I think it is perfectly fine and healthy for people to move on and leave that which no longer fits with them behind, and to view their involvement critically in retrospect.
My comment using the word "flippant" applied specifically to the page in Randi's book. This I do consider lacking in substance. However, I am in favour of including criticism. To me, the article felt a little bland and sanitised when I first came across it, due to the lack of controversy. (It also had too many, i.e. 3, references to Prem Rawat's flying his own planes.) I think the article has improved since then. However, I think criticism should be sourced in accordance with encyclopedic standards. Encylopaedia Britannica would not cite Randi, however popular he may be; he is an academic irrelevance in the study of religion.
If there is a particular passage or section you find offensive in the article as it is now, please elaborate. Best wishes. Jayen466 17:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't commenting on your actual use of the word 'flippant' nor was I directly comparing Jim Jones to Rawat. I was making the distinction that Misplaced Pages editors potential regrets over their wasted time simply pales in comparison to the suffering and confusion that people who follow duplicitous charismatic leaders suffer routinely. I think most people would agree that it is your comparison that is rather stretching the imagination. Some comparison with Jim Jones is not innappropriate because he exemplifies the recent religious leader whose charisma and wrongness resulted in conspicuous tragedy. There are plenty of people who feel that Rawat during the seventies could have gone that way. His own top henchman made the comparisons. I hesitate to discuss this here further but here is a quote from ex-premie lawyer, Marianne Bachers, who makes a case for the comparison you say is unfair. Might I suggest you investigate the complaints against Rawat a little more? Incidentally others might want to do that too, to get the gist of the main criticisms.

PatW (talk) 21:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Michael Dettmers' October 22 post disclosed that in order to work around Maharaji, and to be in his inner circle, a premie had to be 'X rated'. This meant that the premie had to be told that the rules that applied to ashram premies did not apply to Maharaji. In other words, Maharaji's behavior was not to be questioned and was to be kept secret. The premie had to accept this unquestioningly, and if s/he showed hesitation, they would not be allowed to serve in this capacity. Michael said that he interviewed many premies in order to determine if they met the X rated qualifications. I was very disturbed by this revelation and have pondered it repeatedly. Last night I finally understood why this information so affected me. As many of you know, I was one of the attorneys who defended Larry Layton at both of his trials -- he was the only person charged with a crime in the US related to the mass suicide at the Peoples Temple compound in Jonestown, Guyana. I learned everything there was to know about how Peoples Temple operated and how Jim Jones was able to convince his followers to administer poison to their children and then kill themselves at his command. What struck me so much about Michael's post about 'X rating' the people close to Maharaji is that this is exactly the behavior that happened in Peoples Temple with those around Jim Jones. Jones was presented to his congregation as a messianic, God-like figure, who was the embodiment of Christ, and who behaved (supposedly) in a Christ-like manner. In fact, like Maharaji, Jones drank to excess, abused drugs, had numerous mistresses amongst the congregation, perpetrated physical and emotional abuse upon those close to him and increasingly demanded larger and larger displays of devotion to him. In Maharaji's case, he demanded more ostentatious material donations as a demonstration of his followers' devotion. Jim Jones did not seek material assets -- he demanded that church members display their unquestioning dedication by carrying out his orders -- by doing things such as engaging in a physical altercation in a weaker family member in front of the entire church. Regular members of the congregation went along with these demands because they believed that Jones was living a Christ-like existence - a lie perpetuated by those closest to Jones. Those lies played a large part in why over 900 people went to Guyana and ultimately gave up their lives to Jim Jones. I can't help but see the similarity between the behavior of those closest to Jones and those close to Maharaji who were 'X rated'. Of course, Maharaji never took his flock to a remote jungle location in order to isolate them, no suicide ritual was practiced and then actually put to use. But, the way these organizations were run at the top is chillingly similar, and was designed to achieve the same result: allowing the leader to behave in a manner diametrically opposed to the rules set out for his followers, and investing those who perpetuated this lie to those below with power and prestige they would lose if they told the truth. Had those around Jones not perpetuated his lies, many people might not have followed him to the jungle and there have met their demise. In the same way, those around Maharaji who agreed to shield others from the knowledge that Maharaji did not have to play by the rules he insisted the rest of us follow on pain of forfeiting our souls, allowed people to give up their lives to ashrams and other devotional activities which were nearly the functional equivalent of suicide. People lost the best years of their lives based on this fraud. That is what I now grasp from Michael's post. I make this point because I think that it is time that the people who were and are around Maharaji realize the broad consequences in the lives of other premies of their blind devotion to Maharaji.

Pat, I hope you believe that I am not trying to antagonise you in this, but I find that the material you just inserted to be a most disreputable tactic in this debate, guilt by association. Among several thousand words you placed in this public space, the words "Jim Jones" appear in connection with Prem Rawat 14 times, and the text includes a lot of memorable phrases like "followed him to the jungle and met their demise." You appear to be trying to create a connection in the minds of editors between the two, and there is no such connection. In 50 years in the public spotlight, Prem Rawat has never been convicted of any crime. On the contrary, hundreds of thousands of people claim to have benefitted from his teachings (though their testimony is rightly excluded from Misplaced Pages.) He never claimed to be leading a "Christlike life" or to be himself following ashram rules. The ashram lifestyle was for those who chose it, and he chose family life, as did many others. There were absolutely NO RULES of lifestyle for people who received Knowledge, at that time or now. As I recall, the "X rated" thing was public knowledge, light-hearted, and about simple confidentiality. The sinister overtones you are trying to inject were absolutely not there. Rumiton (talk) 12:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The sinister overtones absolutely were/are there. Sorry I simply cannot agree. There's really no hidden tactic here from me either, I swear. My inclusion of this quote was simply in response to Jayen who basically said there was no comparison with Jim Jones when there apparently was although not to the extent that Rawat advised people to kill themselves- he just advised people to surrender their lives to him. So his effect on people was admittedly not anywhere near as catastrophic - although it was arguably sometimes destructive. I should maybe add that quite a number of people suffered mental breakdowns under the pressure of his teachings. The point is that there are comparisons but not in every area. There are important differences too. However, I remembered talking to Michael Dettmers once who told me that at the time of the Jonestown tragedy there was real concern at the DLM top level not to be perceived as another similar cult. I personally observed and made the judgement that there were similar manipulative dynamics going on in Maharaji's court (as it were) and I happen to think Marianne Bachers put it very well so I quoted her. One other thing, although you keep saying the Ashram lifestyle was a choice. It really wasn't if you had surrendered your choices as Rawat recommended. The whole danger of such systems where there is a supposedly Divine person in control is that vulnerable people are subtly coerced to 'surrender' to doing what the Master recommends instead of what they want to do. Prem Rawat REPEATEDLY demonised the mechanism of following your own mind by literally saying your mind is your number one enemy. The mind, he taught, would do anything to stop you surrendering to Maharaji and the only way to not fall foul of it's wiley deceptive ways was to OBEY HIM. Prem Rawat used to scream and yell at us about the value and urgent need for us to surrender to him and the fast track way he proposed was the ashram. At one time the most common word in his speeches was 'Surrender.' Would you say that the Pied Piper who led children into a cave was innocent and it was the childrens fault for not exercising their choice in the matter? I think I should stress here that it was a significant part of the teaching of Knowledge to approach Rawat with 'the heart of a child' so from the outset one was effectively 'inspired' into abdicating one's normal adult choice mechanisms. What you are failing to acknowledge is that with Prem Rawat there were enormous suggestions made from him as to what choices followers should make and an array of now transparently cultic power games at play, such as having a hierarchy of privileged devotees who were given another secret to keep. The X-rating thing was not as you say "public knowledge, light-hearted, and about simple confidentiality" (nobody I know knew of all this till it was later revealed on the internet and even then few could bear to believe it) Contrary to what you suggest it was absolutely effective in concealing behaviours which Rawat knew would be potentially confusing to premies. Also I personally think that being sworn to secrecy is key to the way the whole Knowledge/Master thing works. Knowledge being the most obvious precious secret that all premies promise not to reveal. Having guarded secrets makes people feel special and also creates ties to the person to whom the promise of secrecy is sworn. And, as we well know (and that is supported by Colliers book which is used here) Prem Rawat spoke out of both sides of his mouth about his Divinity depending on who he was addressing...To reporters he would say "I am not God' whilst he would dress up as Krishna in front of premies and say stuff like 'Guru is greater than God . If you want to be proved wrong on this I would be happy to do so on my talk page BUT if you go there you will see I have already had this argument with Momento there who so conspicuously lost the argument it's not really worth going there again in my opinion.PatW (talk) 19:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh and...partly why I write so much back at people here is because some of the arguments that are thrown my way appear to me so tortuous and inaccurate that to not make some attempt to clarify would be simply immoral. I cannot bear to see the wrong impression being given. This article purports to report on a large part of my life which was inextricably tied up with Rawat and which I see here being falsely represented. Maybe I should just leave it to you guys to argue with truly impartial types. To be frank they seem to be doing a much better job of separating fact from fiction than any ex-premies have ever done. Hooray. Obviously Jossi and now you find my honest comments utterly unwelcome.PatW (talk) 20:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


I think we are in danger of straying into discussing the subject rather than the article, something that has got me into admin trouble before and I dare say will again (can you let us alone for a moment, Jossi please?) No doubt the Indian government warns about corrupt gurus but they do not question the guru-disciple system itself, the tradition of profoundly honoring the teacher which is at the heart of all Indian schooling, from general education to music, dance, writing, art, and of course, spiritual growth and meditation.
That they do not include Prem Rawat in their warnings was demonstrated when the Vice President of India put his reputation on the line to praise Prem Rawat's work (ref coming soon, I hope) as have a host of other government and semi-government officials in India and abroad. I don't disagree with you that those early times were not "wholly reasonable or healthy," and I don't think the article gives that impression. It was a jolting culture shock for us all. But I feel the transition times passed a long time ago, and what was good and universal has mostly been retained. No doubt the evolution will continue. Rumiton (talk) 13:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't be particularly pleased about that if I were you. Bhairon Singh Shekhawat has also come out in defence of various other spiritual leaders, including the "yogi master" in a northern state who apparently said that he had a course in yoga that would cure cancer and prevent AIDS, or perhaps the other way around. You try adding "VP of India", I'll make sure that the wording reflects that he isn't a particularly difficult endorsement to get. Relata refero (talk) 18:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I do not see any mention of any such issues at Bhairon Singh Shekhawat. Also checked news archives and found no issues either . Hes seems to be a supporter of Naturopathy, but that does not make his endorsement of a public figure to be questionable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
. As I said, best to not mention any connection with the VP. Relata refero (talk) 18:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Of these four links, one mentions Bhairon Singh Shekhawat as being in a a guest list. I do not see any mention of an endorsement, and even if there was such endorsement, the material does not belong here, but in the article about Ramdev. If there is published criticism of Shekhawat in regard to the subject of this article, that would be different. I am looking for Indian newspapers stories that published information on the Indira Gandhi indoor stadium event of August 2006 , that was attended by 25,000 people, and in which the VP made a speech. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
(deindent)You cant have it both ways. Either you think this is a notable enough act/endorsement that it goes in the article; in which case I think we owe it to the reader to tell them exactly what else the source of the endorsement supports. The truth is, of course, that it is not notable. As Rumiton says "he put his reputation on the line...". Exactly. He doesn't have one, because he attends meetings for large numbers of spiritual leaders and releases their books and opens their offices and praises their foreign exchange earnings and inner peace. So, as I said, if you make the decision to put him in the article, then you are making the decision that his words on Rawat are notable or in any way exceptional. And that implication, that misleading of the reader should not be permitted to stand without some form of context. (And as for your "lack of an endorsement", here's the VP on the cancer-curer:"He has assured the right to lead a healthy and disease free life to all".)
Also Here he is saying"..he received inner strength and attained peace of mind which helped him with the recovery...Swamishri has helped spread the Indian culture across the world. It is a great mission. He is continuing the mission of Swami Vivekananda.." about Pramukh Swami Maharaj. Here's a sign of his closeness with another well-known "godman". http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about209931.html Here's] 200,000 and a speech at Shree Guruji's. Does a picture emerge? Relata refero (talk) 20:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I do not see anything in that blog post or the other source, that has any implication for this article, and ddding "context" such as you suggest would be a violation of WP:OR. In any case, I will bring the source, and then editors will look into it and decide if worthy of addition or not. But first, I need to find it.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
No, you're implying that a speech by the Vice-President is notable. Implying that is a bloody enormous violation of NPOV in the light of all these facts, and one I think you would do well to avoid. Whatever. Relata refero (talk) 20:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
A speech by the vice-president of the second most populous country, and the most populous democracy in the world is notable by default. That he is Indian and addresses Indian cultural and religious issues, is no surprise. Try and negate a speech by the vice-president of the US Dick Cheney, just because he is a controversial conservative. As you are using the word bloody", I would say that dismissing the VP of India because he is Indian, would be a bloody demonstration of Western bias that has no place in this pedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I have nothing more to say until you actually try to add this, in which case I will investigate the wording, but I'd like to point out that equating a tendency to indiscriminate enthusiasm for leaders of spiritual enterprises with "addressing Indian cultural and religious issues" is a bit of a stretch, and perhaps a demonstration (OK, I can't use the word again) of another sort of bias. Relata refero (talk) 21:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
One could argue about a tendency to indiscriminate enthusiasm for specific groups in the case of Cheney as well. And yet, we would not dismiss it. Orientalism or Western bias is of no consequence in the pedia. People are what they are and they say what they say in the context of the culture/politics in which they act. What's new? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Relata refero, I would politely request that you check your prejudices at the door if you are to contribute constructively in this article, which is very much about the way totally different cultures and philosophies have interracted. To say that the second highest elected official in the world's most populous democracy "has no reputation" comes across as breath-taking hubris. Rumiton (talk) 11:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Hubris-schmubris. If the implication is that Mr. Shekhawat has an ability to discriminate between spiritual leaders - which is what I presume he is being considered worth a mention in this article for - then I'm afraid, as the evidence I presented suggests, he doesn't have one, because he is indiscriminate.
On the Cheney comparison, if a right-wing organisation wished to put in their article that Cheney has nice things about them, I'd certainly want it qualified somehow. (The only reason that there might be a difference is in what is expected of the readership of the two articles; I don't suppose that the readership of this article is generally familiar with Mr. Shekhawat's behaviour, but it is likely that the readership of an article on a small right-wing organisation would be.) Relata refero (talk) 20:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
It is clear that you do not hold Shekhawat in high regard, and you may have your reasons. But this is not about your opinion of Shekhawat, is it? Time to re-read WP:V? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
You haven't the slightest idea how I regard him as a politician or as a man.
Whether his giving a speech at a function organised by a leader of a spiritual movement is a notable event is what this is about. And I've demonstrated that it isn't exceptional in the least, and pushing it into the article thus gives it a slant. Time to re-read WP:NPOV? Relata refero (talk) 20:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Additional references

Can some regular editors add relevant material from the following references to the article ?

Why, and why don't you do it? Onefinalstep (talk) 21:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
See Talk:Prem_Rawat/scholars#Jeanne_Messer ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
What is this "effect of mediation"? (OK, I'm kidding, Andries. Carry on with your unique and special understanding of English.) Rumiton (talk) 04:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Civility, notably WP:SKILL, please. Andries was talking about meditation, obviously, which is a typo: there isn't even a conclusion to draw w.r.t. language skills, even if that would be appropriate in Misplaced Pages talk page context. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I said I was kidding. I don't think Andries took it seriously. His English is imperfect, as is my German, and he has helped me with that. Rumiton (talk) 13:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Rumion, to answer your question about the effect of mediation, there was no mediation. I had filed three mediation requests with Momento to the mediation committee but they had all eventually been rejected. Andries (talk) 22:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh, God. OK Andries. OK. Rumiton (talk) 13:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Personal life section

While we're integrating sections, the "personal life" section seems unnecessary. Is there a point to the section that I don't understand? Isn't the whole article about his life? We mention Rawat's arrival to the U.A. chronologically, so why wait to the end to mention his citizenship? We mention family relations throughout, so why leave mention of his wife to the end? All of the material can be placed chronologically. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I see merit in this approach, Will. But just note that in many bios, private/personal matters are separated from aspects of the notability of the person. SO, I am not sure. Let's hear what others have to say about this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I've worked on a lot of bios of politicians; almost always, there is a "personal life" section because the chronological parts of the article are, following the section where the person has finished his/her education, pretty much devoted to career, political positions, etc. Things like spouse, kids, and religion don't really fit in anywhere else. The section is usually put at the end of the article, sort of as a catch-all.
My personal preference is to integrate personal information into the main article, where that fits. But if there are one or two loose facts, which need to go into a personal life section, then (arguably) it makes sense to add others where they aren't critical to understanding a chronological sequence.
In other words (sorry for rambling), it does depend. Integrate if you can do so completely; put stuff into a separate section at the bottom if that doesn't cause problems for the reader in following events earlier in the article. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 19:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
The bulk of the material isn't personal at all - it lists his business interests. Perhaps a solution wqould be to integrate the personal stuff (citizenship, wife and family), and then rename the section "Business activities" or something like that. We could move the investment income stuff there. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it matters much, but what John says seems logical. Leave the personal odds and ends till last. Rumiton (talk) 03:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
"Personal odds and ends" - would that include his family relationships? His place of birth and education? His sources of income? Where do we draw the lines between his teachings, his career, and his personal life? Is being a guru his career, or is it being a pilot and inventor? The heading is inaccurate, so this discusion is on which improvement to make. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Looking again at the section I see your point, but still don't find it all that significant. How would you arrange these issues? Rumiton (talk) 12:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC) I'm sorry, I see you have already made a suggestion. Though I think his activities that are separate from his more notable roles are pretty appropriately classed as "personal." We can't call them "Private" or they wouldn't belong here. "Personal" seems about right to me. Rumiton (talk) 12:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
It's a fine line. The 70s Time article talks about his family relationships. Is it in or out?Momento (talk) 13:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The only material in this section about family are two short sentences: A U.S. citizen since 1977, Rawat lives with his wife in Malibu, California. They have four grown children. Since he moved to Malibu (at least part time) in the 1970s, the material could be moved to the "Coming of age" section that covers the mid- to late-'70s. The remaining material appears to be about businesses and isn't any more personal than the rest of the article. I propose a title like "business activities", but maybe someone else can think of a better phrase. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Business activities would be a very short section. I think there are way more pressing issues with this article. 13:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rumiton (talk • contribs)

Prem Rawat's organisations

I propose to add a new section to the article giving some basic information on the organisations associated with Prem Rawat. For someone new to the subject, it now gives the impression one is supposed to know a lot of things before starting to read the article.

For every one of them, I'd like to see a short overview: how many people involved; when started; does it still exist or has it been renamed; what is the nature of Prem Rawat's involvement; are these official organisations, or informal designations?

These descriptions might work as summaries in a Misplaced Pages:Summary style aproach, which is good quality article writing.

Ashrams
"Ashram" is clearly a concept existing outside the context of Prem Rawat too (Prem Rawat isn't even mentioned at the Ashram article). How many of them associated with Prem Rawat were there, roughly, with how many members, with what evolution over time? Are there any statistics, external sources providing information on them etc?
I don't think anyone ever counted them, and they were opening and closing constantly. No source that I know of has attempted to give us this information. Rumiton (talk) 10:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Divine Light Mission
also basic statistics, and nature of Prem Rawat's involvement, linked to external sources would be welcomed. Was it completely merged to Elan Vital, or did it still continue as a separate organisation (until today, or until what time), after the merge to Elan Vital?
I believe the current text: In 1983 the downsized Divine Light Mission changed its name to Elan Vital, and Rawat closed the last western ashrams, marking the end of his use of Indian methods for international objectives describes the situation accurately. The DLM was registered by early devotees to assist in spreading the Knowledge. The focus was clearly on Prem Rawat, but he had no legal ability to control anything until he became an emancipated minor. Rumiton (talk) 10:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Elan Vital
apart from the kind of information suggested before, some explanation on where the name of this organisation came from would be welcomed.
AFAIK, Elan Vital means "spirit of life" or "life force." I have always presumed the name comes from the experience of practising the techniques, but I have seen no source report on it. Elan Vital has no members. Rumiton (talk) 10:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Divine United Organization
currently unmentioned in Prem Rawat article, see below.
I think DUO was an attempt to Anglicise the Indian named organisation. The name never achieved much currency. Rumiton (talk) 10:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Raj Vidya Kender
currently only mentioned in an external link at the bottom of the page: if nothing of this organisation is explained in the article, I'm not sure why we should have a link to its website.
Perhaps we shouldn't. It isn't that important. Rumiton (talk) 10:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Prem Rawat Foundation
Same questions, also: were other organisations merged into this one?
See above. Again, TPRF has no members, it exists partly (or mostly) to materially assist Prem Rawat in spreading his message, but also to distribute aid to distressed global areas, largely by assisting existing aid organisations. I understand it was created anew from no pre-existing base.
You will understand my answers above are just "FYI." They are true to the best of my knowledge, but are not sourced. Rumiton (talk) 10:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't give much more detail in the Prem Rawat article, and I know more detail can be obtained from the individual Misplaced Pages articles (that's how "summary style" works). --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

That seems like a reasonable proposal. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
No problem in principle, but see the following on "debloating." I can see it all having to come out again. Rumiton (talk) 13:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the benefit of this.... Ashrams are covered in the Divine Light Mission, which is linkd from here and there is wording about them in this article (teachings section). Same as the Elan Vital , and The Prem Rawat Foundation. These organizations are described and in the article already, do we need more?. Raj Vidya Kender link could be removed, if needed. I have not found published sources about it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Note that in the Divine Light Mission article, the concept ashram isn't really explained (only that they were "established", "closed", "disputed", etc), nor is the word "ashram" in that article even a single time linked to the Misplaced Pages article ashram. I suppose the DLM article needs some serious debloating too, and provide actual factual information instead, e.g. what the difference is between a western ashram, and an ashram in India? Other factual information (as opposed to bloat) missing from that article are basic questions like, how many Prem-Rawat related ashrams were there? How many of them are there still in India? How many of them are there still of the variety connected to his brother and mother (which is DLM too, at least in India)? How many people were involved in ashrams over time? Basic statistics please.
Also, it would be better that Misplaced Pages is less an exercise in solving puzzles. You say "Ashrams are covered in the Divine Light Mission, which is linkd from here" - but how on earth are readers supposed to know in advance that from the Prem Rawat article they don't have to click the ashram link when they want to know more about what is unsatisfactorily explained in the paragraphs mentioning them, but instead have to navigate via the Divine Light Mission link (...to find there an article with also incomplete context, but no longer a link to the ashram article)? --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I strongly agree. Maybe a brief lead at the start of a summary section, such as "A number of organizations have been associated with Prem Rawat over the years:", a quick description of each, with a Wikilink if applicable. I think this would be a great help for the reader just learning about Rawat to understand his history and works. Msalt (talk) 10:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Seems like a good idea. There is evident confusion and cross-referencing between Rawat and these organizations; Jossi, you as much as anyone have criticized editors for referring to him when a source describes one of these organizations. They all seem to be organized around him and his teachings, and he is the common threadbetween them. So a listing with a quick description or distinction between them would seem to be the essence of encyclopedicality. (is that a word?) Msalt (talk) 22:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this a more or less correct overview:

His first organizations were called Divine Light Mission (DLM) and Divine United Organization (DUO). Later in the eighties he started referring to himself as Maharaji and the various Divine Light Mission organizations were gradually replaced by entities with the name Elan Vital. Today he typically uses his given name, Prem Rawat, and his newest organization is called The Prem Rawat Foundation. In 1974 a legal battle saw him lose control of the Divine Light Mission in India to his mother and elder brother. With the loss of the Indian DLM, the promotional organization for Prem Rawat in India became Divine United Organization, which has now been renamed Raj Vidya Kender.

? (seems we need to mention the Divine United Organization too, currently unmentioned in the Prem Rawat article). And on the ashrams:

'mahatmas', were sent to support the western Divine Light Mission and a system of ashrams - houses where Rawat's followers lived communally in a Hindu style of monasticism - was instigated. in 1977 , the ashram system was reinvigorated after a period of apparent decline, a more restrictive set of rules were imposed and all of Rawat's followers were subject to stronger encouragement to enter the ashram system. In 1982 without prior warning, Prem Rawat announced that the Divine Light Mission ashrams would close, the closure programme was complete by the end of 1983. The DUO ashrams in India were treated separately and remain to this day as largely monastic in character.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 09:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

That is not a reliable source. It is anonymous and unreliable, and should pot be used. Sources are provided in the respective articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Whether I used a reliable source is not the issue here. I asked whether it is a convenient summary, e.g. "ashrams - houses where Rawat's followers lived communally in a Hindu style of monasticism". If that's OK, then sure we'll be able to find sources for it. If it's uncontested in WP:V meaning then I see even less of a problem. Let's not seek problems where there are none. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I may try and furnish some facts and figures about the Ashrams of Prem Rawat if I get time and I've tried before but crumpled under the weight of premie objection...so a forlorn job it would be. One thing for sure: I personally heard Rawat circa 1978 saying he considered Ashrams as "the backbone of his work". I have a cassette tape of him addressing ashram premies (I was there) in a side meeting to the main hall (Palazzo Del Sporti) in Rome saying that he wanted Ashrams in every major city of the world. Also I recall him saying that if you were single and your aspirations were to be his devotee then you should be planning to dedicate your life to him in his ashram. In same Rome meeting he said that we the assembled were the most important (premies) to him and gestured towards the main hall (where the mass of non-ashram premies awaited him in their thousands) indicating that we were comparatively way more important than them. At most large festivals around that time he held separate Ashram Meetings for ashram premies. There must have been thousands of people in ashrams since there were indeed ashrams in most major cities, and typically these would have, let's say 7-10 people or thereabouts. As I keep pointing out (if we'd been allowed by Jossi to use Divine Light Mission monthly mags from the time) there are tons and tons of verbatim 'Satsangs' from Rawat and others that quite clearly paint the correct picture about Ashrams. In this Rome tape most of the dialogue is Rawat making fun of the fawning premies and asking for 'co-ordinators' to update him on the numbers. It seemed important to him to know how many ashram premies there were in each country and to tease the ones who had made the most effort with promises of a visit to the desperation of those communities who didn't measure up in the numbers game.

There was an extremely intensive religious ashram revival period in 1977-8 when Rawat instructed his 'initiators' (in the UK that was Peter Ponton and Nick Seymour-Jones) to go and basically recruit for his ashrams. That's when I joined - the second Ashram wave. Rawat was the same age as I and adult enough to be making responsible decisions. This was not his mother or mahatmas or any western premies influence. One major criticism of Prem Rawat remains that he was extraordinarily emphatic and heavy about the importance (to him) of 'real' devotees being in these Ashrams and yet essentially did not show appropriate care or concern for those people as time went by and was cynical about their sacrifices. Personally I was delighted that in 1981 (or thereabouts) he disbanded what had become in some peoples view a 'failed experiment'. I really disapprove of the way current premies here (many of whom only came in on the mild tail end of this story) seem to want to play down Rawat's involvement in Ashrams and make it sound like it was something 'thrust upon him' by others. His past organisations (conveniently now transformed into some other entity) always seem to be implicated to be responsible for things that he actually was in charge of. That is not right in my book.PatW (talk) 00:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

May I remind you (again) that this page is not a discussion forum to discuss the subject of the article? We should be trying to find sources to support material in the article rather than use these pages to voice our opinions on he subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but it's a little confusing because some people seem to welcome a little first hand information - possibly because it may help indicate which supportive material is missing. As has been demonstrated there is a rather hostile habit of premies here to repeatedly excise controversial information without proper consultation and 'as if they own the article'. That to me partly explains why it is missing. Also, as you well know, since 1980's there is very little academic resource on Prem Rawat apart from the one's that derive indirectly from him. (Like Ron Geaves or Cagan). Can you show me a published interview or commentary anywhere that is not reverential or influenced his organisation? For example where is there some source on his attitude towards Ashrams in 1980? I'd love to see that! The DLM magazines that perfectly illustrate what went on (and that are in public libraries) according to you cannot be quoted. There's very little left that is unbiased to refer to. That's why I am unconvinced that it is entirely out of place to make suggestions here as to what facts we might want to be finding supportive material for. If I were one of the neutral uninformed editors here I would be incredibly confused.PatW (talk) 01:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
That is incorrect, Hunt's material is from 2003. As for "first hand" accounts, this is not the place for these as unpublished material is not acceptable in articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

No I am not incorrect. You misunderstood me. I said there was 'very little' information not 'none'. Ironically even Hunt himself says: deliberately keeping a low profile has meant that the movement has generally managed to escape the gaze of publicity that surrounds other NRMs. which explains why there is the conspicuous absence of material I commented on. By the way why do you think Hunt uses the word 'deliberately'. Would you agree with that? If so why? PatW (talk) 16:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

How about the information contained in Religious Requirements and Practices of Certain Selected Groups: A Handbook for Chaplains by U. S. Department of the Army, published 2001 by The Minerva Group, Inc. ISBN 0898756073 ? It contains an estimate of involved and of very active adherents. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:41, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The source is already used in the article, and the material is outdated (refers to the DLM in Denver, Colorado, late 1970's), despite that last edition of the handbook's publishing date. The author of that section is Gordon J. Melton, who we are already using as a source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
If I recall, Momento had collected some sources related to membership and number of adherents, that were used at a acertin point in the article. My view, is that these numbers would be better placed on the appropriate article about the organizations mentioned in these sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, it is listed in the references section, but I don't see where it would be actively used as a reference in the Prem Rawat article. The DLM article uses it as a reference, but neither article cites this source (or any other source) on number of adherents as far as I can see. Also "the material is outdated (refers to the DLM in Denver, Colorado, late 1970's)" is nowhere mentioned in Misplaced Pages articles as far as I found out, even less referenced. So, please provide the information, as correctly as possible, with appropriate sources. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:54, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
What I meant, Francis, is that the handbook refers to the DLM when it was headquartered in Denver in late 1970's (check the source, and look at the page header). I will try and find the adherent number's sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:59, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
A more up-to-date version of the handbook, is available here (entry on Elan Vital here). And here is a source that was used in the past: In 1997, "Religions of the World: A Latter-day Saint View" estimated a general membership of appox. 1.2 mil. worldwide, with 50,000 in the U.S. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's a formulation to address the numbers: there are a number of sources with no consensus - so they all get quoted and the reader makes up their mind:

Levels of adherence to Prem Rawat have never been certain with the only consistent observations coming from the USA. Rudin & Rudin give a world wide following of 6 million prior to the family Schism of 1974, of which 50,000 were in the US; these figures had fallen to 1.2 million for Prem Rawat's personal worldwide following in 1980, of which just 15,000 were in the US.ref Rudin, James A. & Marcia R. Rudin. Prison or Paradise: The New Religious Cults; Fortress Press: Philadelphia (1980); pg. 63./refPetersen states that Prem Rawat claimed 7 million followers worldwide in 1973, with 60,000 in the US.ref Petersen, William J. Those Curious New Cults in the 80s. New Canaan, Connecticut: Keats Publishing (1982); pg. 146./ref Melton & Moore suggest a US following of a mere 3,000 committed followers in 1982 out of some 50,000 who had been initiated into the Knowledge meditation. ref Melton, J. Gordon & Robert L. Moore. The Cult Experience: Responding to the New Religious Pluralism. New York: The Pilgrim Press (1984 ); pg. 142.br / >The Divine Light Mission grew quickly in the early seventies but suffered a severe setback in 1973 . In the late seventies the Mission became a low-key organization and stopped its attempts at mass appeal. Recently, Maharaj Ji quietly moved to Miami. The Mission has reportedly initiated over 50,000 people, but only a few thousand remain the chain of ashrams that now dot the nation./ref —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nik Wright2 (talk • contribs) 21:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Premie

Currently, the premie disambiguation page explains more about the use of the designation "premie" than the Prem Rawat article (apart from figuring extensively in quoted footnote text), although that disambiguation page refers to the Prem Rawat article for this meaning of the term. There's also something that looks like a contradiction (but maybe isn't): the disambig page refers to premies as followers of Prem Rawat; the Prem Rawat article mentions the term only in connection with Prem Rawat's father ("...his father's followers (known as premies)", in the Childhood section).

Could we merge the "use of the term" information, currently on the disambig page, to the Prem Rawat article? Any objections? --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem except article size. As part of becoming stable we will probably want to go for Good Article again, and almost certainly the reviewers will call for another debloating. We are not writing a book. The pendelum swings. Rumiton (talk) 13:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
"premies", comes from the sanskrit word "prem" that means "love". I will look for a reference. In India the term is widely used, but in the West is used rarely nowadays. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

During the 1960s Americans in India searching for spiritual guidance discovered the Mission and a few became initiates (i.e., “premies,” or “lovers of God”).

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

"the Mission" being DLM in this context, according to the footnote, and not, for instance, The Mission. Anyways, thanks for the clarification, naively I thought "premies" derived from Prem Rawat. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Prem is a very popular name in India. And yes, the mission here is the DLM. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Also note that Prem Rawat was known in India as a child as Sant Ji and as Balyogeshwar, and as Maharaji today. It is only recently (last 10 years or so) that people started referring to him by his passport name. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
PS, what page in Melton? there is already a reference to the DLM entry in Melton in the Prem Rawat article, saying it is p141-2 (not p14). --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
My mistake, p.141. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. Anyway, here is what is on the "Premie" disambig page:

* Premie, a student of Prem Rawat. The word was widely used amongst followers of Prem Rawat in western countries until the mid 1980s, and is still used informally. It is still in use in India and other Eastern countries.

Can someone help clean that out over there? The rest, the part about the use of the term should be referenced and in the Prem Rawat article imho. Can someone provide an adequate reference? --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that you have duplicated the material. The second sentence starting with In the late 1960s, British followers in India invited him to visit the West refers to the same people as Melton's. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
So, what you say now is that "Americans in India" == "British followers in India". The difference seems a continent to me. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Both British and Americans visited India in the late 60's and found there the young Maharaji. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, logical. But Melton didn't imply "followers from English-speaking countries around the world", or did he?
"British" visitors would be more prevalent at the time in India I suppose (in general), with India having been a British colony and all: is there any reason why Melton stresses "Americans", or is that only accidental because he (supposedly) was one himself? --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Cagan's book describe these early seekers, with names and nationalities: Americans, and British. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Does that mean I can adapt the sentence now quoted to Melton? --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I stumbled on this yesterday:

The Divine Light Mission, which was Maharaji's organization was largely comprised of Jewish kids seeking truth and the reality of God

Was that indeed a common characteristic of followers of Rawat (Jewish background)? Or is that just this author's POV? Is there anything more to know about this from more scholarly sources (the book I quoted from is a primary source autobiography as far as I can tell), or is there nothing more to say about the (early) followers of Rawat than "American and British"? --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no way I can keep abreast of all these arguments and hold down my job, so I will just dip in when I feel I have something to contribute. Francis, I have seen some encouraging signs of neutrality from you. I believe you might be realising there could be more to Prem Rawat than what might commonly be assumed. What I would also like to see would be your developing your own "nose" for some of these sources. This one, for example. When people receive Knowledge there is no screening for race, religion or nationality. Mostly, their names are/were not even taken. No one can say which group the majority stemmed from. From my experience there were no more jewish looking or sounding premies than any other group, and a lot are represented. It looks to me that this author feels he/she has found a clever way to insult both premies and jews at the same time. Really not worth mentioning here. Rumiton (talk) 11:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I think the 'largely Jewish' reference was probably a false impression. The early western followers came from a wide cross-section of religious upbringings. No doubt though that they were seeking Truth and the reality of God. That was for sure.PatW (talk) 17:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

To consider

Per Thatcher's recommendation in the closing of the COI discussion at WP:COI/N However, be aware that concerns about COI editing apply equally to editors who are deeply opposed to Prem and contribute to anti-Prem web sites., I would appreciate if edits such as this are carefully considered in that context. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course anti-Rawat activists have similar COI issues to Rawat followers, and we should look at all such edits with sharp eyes. However, while I can understand how the edit you cite would be unpleasant to someone sympathetic to Prem Rawat, I don't think the edit itself is at all unreasonable. The fact that Randi included him in an encyclopedia of supernatural "claims, frauds and hoaxes" IS the main point, rather than the details of the entry. I don't think COI is really the issue here, is it? If I made the same edit, would you be happy with it? Msalt (talk) 23:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I would. We do not use the names of books in this article at all, and we should not give undue weight to Randi's opinion by listing the name of his book. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm confused. Did you misspeak, Jossi? I asked if you would be happy with the edit if I made it, since I don't have any COI, and you said yes. I'm happy to go ahead and make the edit, which I think is in fact more accurate. But the rest of what you say implies that you think the opposite. My point being that COI doesn't seem to be the issue, you just don't like the edit, whoever makes it. Am I right about that? Msalt (talk) 01:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I edited the mention so that 1) it's not a COI edit and 2) it puts it in context better. (ie, not just citing the title, but noting that he included him in such an encyclopedia.) Also tightened it up. Msalt (talk) 01:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Correct Jossi. Naming the book is just away to get around the appalling quote - that Rawat was fat.Momento (talk) 00:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
To Momento - I would prefer including both the quote and the name of the book, but is is clear to me that the name of the book is the significant issue here. To Jossi, there is no rule in Misplaced Pages about not using names of books in articles. In this case it is warranted. Regarding my conflict of interest, where is the conflict? I simply want this article to reflect a little closer the view of Rawat held by pretty much every mainstream newspaper and magazine article writer over the last 37 years as documented at and as ignored by the Prem Rawat Foundation's 'press room' at --John Brauns (talk) 00:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Ask User:Thatcher for his reasons to alert you on this aspect. Reputable publications have been used in this article. Sources that refer to the 16-year old Maharaji as a "the world's most overweight midget", or "His Divine Fatness" , or that repeat nonsense such as that "he strips devotees, pours abrasive chemicals on their bodies and into their mouths, administers drugs, having them beaten with a stick or thrown into swimming pools", are obviously not. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, I disagree with the generaliztion. His behavior as a guru was unusual and considered inappropriate by many sources, inc. reputable ones as the Washington Post. And this can and should be in the article. Andries (talk) 08:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Are you saying that Randi's book makes all of those statements? If so, then please consider stating such objections directly, rather than couching this as an issue of COI by the editor who wants to name the book. I haven't read Randi's book but if he says all that, then frankly, that would be a much stronger argument against the book anyway. If he didn't say that, then I don't know why you would bring it up, it seems like an inflammatory red herring. Msalt (talk)
You can read the book and its article on Prem Rawat online. Arthur C. Clarke, it would appear from the cover art, only wrote the introduction; the book itself is Randi's. Given that the book appears to contain about a page's worth of ad-hominems and trivial information hoped to be found embarrassing, how notable is it? -- Jayen466 01:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks very much for the link, that is very helpful. It would be great if we could reference web sources for all of these publications. Is there a WP against web links to materials both published on paper and available online? I dropped Arthur Clarke from the text in my edit, described above. However, none of the inflammatory statements that Jossi listed are in there. While the article is certainly very negative, and I think fairly described as ridiculing, I'm not sure that is sufficient reason to remove it as an exemplar of criticism. It also describes events also mentioned in sources on the Prem Rawat: Sources page that are accepted here, and in reasonably fair terms in most cases. I would like to see the opinion of other relatively uninvolved editors on whether to keep this or not. Certainly it would be nice to find a summary of criticisms with a tone that's a bit more fair. Msalt (talk) 01:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
There might be a chance of finding something a bit more balanced and informed here. That could be researched and evaluated, and a summary included (to the extent that it comments on his person). This would be preferable in my view to dignifying this somewhat flippant page by Randi with an encylopedic citation. -- Jayen466 02:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
The flippant comments in Randi's book, are hardly encyclopedic, but I would let others assess that. As for the link to JSTOR, note that most, if not all these sources have already been used in the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Jayen, there is every chance of finding more balanced and informed comments. It shows an extraordinary bias that some editors would want to see a sensationalist book by a stage magician become a source for an encyclopedia. Apart from that, editors here are getting COI (Conflict of Interest) confused with POV (Point Of View.) COI exists where the material well-being of an editor is in some way affected by the outcome of the article. POV is just a strongly-held opinion. And Msalt's statement "While the article is certainly very negative, and I think fairly described as ridiculing, I'm not sure that is sufficient reason to remove it as an exemplar of criticism" shows perhaps an unfamiliarity with WP:BLP "An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is do no harm." This is a living, breathing person with feelings, not a philosophical concept. Rumiton (talk) 02:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think you're right about WP:COI vs. POV, and am inclined to go with Jossi and Thatcher on this one. I don't see anything about "material well-being" in the policy; it's about promoting "your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups." Those interests can be ideological, religious, political, or whatever. Msalt (talk) 04:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Rumiton, do no harm can also be interpreted in a completely opposite way: to present an unbalanced positive article of Prem Rawat harms his (potential) followers and students. Andries (talk) 11:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I must still beg to differ. The Oxford Dictionary gives several meanings for "interest", from the most common "concern, curiosity" to the sense that I believe is clear here: "title, right, pecuniary stake." The first examples given on WP:COI are "quoting from your own book", "direct financial reward", "involvement in a court case" and "promoting (other)commercial or private sites". These are all monetary factors. Then we have "close friendship with the subject" and "involvement with a promotional organisation". With respect, I believe your suggestion that "ideological, religious, political" views constitute a COI is mistaken. Rumiton (talk) 10:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Ideological, religious, and political interests are not the same thing as ideological, religious, or political views. I don't think anyone other than yourself has expressed the view that a devotee of a guru (or an embittered ex-devotee) lacks a conflict of interest. User Thatcher made it clear that both devotees and ex-devotee activists have conflicts of interest. Indeed, Jossi declared that he had a conflict of interest in this case, which was key to making his involvement here appropriate. The wording of WP:COI is clear. The fact that many of the examples involve monetary gain doesn't add phrases to the policy. And as you note, there are examples with no monetary involvement at all, notably "involvement with a promotional organisation" which seems to apply to most editors here (broadening it to include antagonistic organizations). Msalt (talk) 02:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
If we all have Conflicts of Interest we should not be editing the content of the article. Interests are not the same as views? I think you are stretching (or "broadening" if you like), this defn too far. I am not a member of Elan Vital or TPRF. As far as I know, neither of them have any members. I don't do work for them. I am not the subject's "best friend." I am not getting paid by anyone. That is the extent of the categories in WP:COI. Why do you suggest I have a conflict of interest? Rumiton (talk) 10:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Rumiton, I am in broad agreement with you. However, the subject being alive should not even have to enter into consideration. If we are writing an encyclopedia, we should use academic sources wherever they are available, in preference over journalistic accounts and what could be termed "popular science". -- Jayen466 02:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Jayen, thank you for your level-headed and mature contributions, not to mention the elegance of their expression. The subject being alive does need to come into our consideration, not so much in kind as in degree. The requirements for reputability in sourcing and neutrality of article expression, the need to eliminate undue weight and extraordinary claims are not different from those for other Misplaced Pages articles, they are just a lot more rigorously applied. WP:BLP says it all, in spirit as well as in letter. Rumiton (talk) 10:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I am broadly familiar with WP:BLP, though certainly not to the extent that many others here are. (What's the provision on adherence to the law in Florida all about?) And I have already stated that I personally would prefer a less snarky source.
However, Rumiton, I think you are implying that BLP prevents any substantial criticism of living persons, and I don't believe that is true. Randi's book cites several facts also documented by sources accepted as verifiable on this page in judging Rawat as belonging in his encyclopedia. It's certainly better to mention the book and not quote the ridiculing language, so the article is already better than earlier today. Let's keep looking for a better source, rather than disparaging each other's knowledge of WP rules. Msalt (talk) 03:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, I did not mean to disparage. You are quite right, criticism that is very well sourced should be acknowledged, but not in the lip-licking way that some would like to see. Rumiton (talk) 11:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Apologies for removing the text of Galanter's quote. I found the description in the book.Momento (talk) 06:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

the word "cult"

I'm wondering why, before I just added the word, there was not a single instance of the word "cult" in the article main body (it appeared only in references) despite repeated and numerous media references to the movement as a cult, or in the context of a cult? Lawrence § t/e 15:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The word cult appears in Divine Light Mission, the movement that was considered by some to be such. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Good question, Lawrence. Cirt (talk) 03:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Bad question, Lawrence. We have dealt with this about 560 times, and here we have to go again. To summarize; "cult" is high on Misplaced Pages's list of words to avoid for several great reasons. The neutral voice of Misplaced Pages cannot use it because it has no non-negative meaning (nobody goes to work on Monday and says "I joined a great cult on the weekend.") But even more because it is essentially meaningless. It is a word used primarily by large, bizarre religious groups against probably equally bizarre smaller and newer groups, who have not been around long enough to defend themselves. It is the essense of the unencyclopedic mindset. Rumiton (talk) 11:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
There are well-defined sociological uses of the term. The term is sociologically better defined than new religious movement. Andries (talk) 18:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
We shouldn't describe groups as "cults". We should report it when notable sources call groups "cults". Since groups connected to the subject have been called "cults" on many occasions, it would be a disservice to readers and a violation of NPOV to omit references to that term. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Agree --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Melton does not describe DLM as a cult. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, Melton listed DLM in his "Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America." I agree with Will Beback. Msalt (talk) 06:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I know that, as I provided that source. Have you read the book? Read the introduction of the book and the Divine Light Mission entry. The DLM is described as a new religious movement based on the spiritual tradition of the Sants. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the pointer, Jossi. I have read the section of the book as presented (by you I believe) on the Talk\Scholars page, but haven't had time to get to the library yet. It's a reference book so can't be checked out. Perhaps you could add the introduction there as well when time permits? Also, is it OK if I add to that page, either new articles that I find, or ellipsed portions of the articles listed? Thanks, Msalt (talk) 18:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Section one surveys the broad range of issues surrounding the topic of "cults" (note the scare quotes), the popular label given to alternative religions a number of false stereotypes exists about them. Section II discusses approximately twenty of the older, more established nonconventional religions. Section III gives an in depth treatment of the prominent and growing New Age Movement. Section IV is the heart of the volume. It discuses sixteen of the most significant "new" religions which have emerged in America. (Introduction)

The term "cult" is a pejorative label used to describe certain religious groups outside the mainstream of Western religions. Social scientists tend to be the least pejorative in their use of the term. They divide religious groups into three categories,: churches, sects, and cults. Cults represent a force of religious innovation within a culture. (Section 1, p.1)

The Divine Light Mission is covered in Section IV, so Melton is describing the DLM as a new religion movement. Melton's use of the term "cult" refers to the social scientist use, which differs from the pejorative use as explained in Section I. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Very helpful, thanks. Msalt (talk) 00:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
To Andries. I don't wish to denigrate your English, Andries, you speak at least 3 languages very well while I struggle with 2, but the sociological meanings are irrelevant. This is a source for ordinary English speakers, and to them cult is a very, very bad word. New Religious Movement is not too precise, nor is it common, but it is self-explanatory, and probably the best we can do. Rumiton (talk) 15:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Balyogeshwar

... was the name of Rawat when he was a child. See Balyogeshwar. I do not think that it is notable enough to be mentioned in the lead. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It is a redirect to the page. Again, Misplaced Pages is not a puzzle where average readers have to connect dots via information that is available elsewhere, or even worse by digging into diffs at Misplaced Pages (how to find diffs is not prerequired knowledge for being a reader of a Misplaced Pages article). --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
We had a long section on the names and meanings of them (in the "Childhood" section), but it was agreed that it was not necessary.

In these early days, Rawat was known both as Sant Ji and as Balyogeshwar.

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Compare – Sant Ji is currently not a redirect, but the "Sant" tradition is still explained in the article, so no problem there.
See also Misplaced Pages:Consensus can change
The idea is that if someone types a word in the search box, say "Balyogeshwar", that then the Misplaced Pages:principle of least surprise should apply, and not: why am I directed to this page? --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Note also that currently one of the footnotes contains: "Balyogeshwar and his brother have ...":
  1. Quoted from a 1992 publication (Prem Rawat was 25 at the time - "child"?);
  2. This is the only other mentioning of the word "Balyogeshwar" in the article. How are average readers supposed to understand that sentence, if it would not be indicated in the article that Balyogeshwar == Prem Rawat? --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not opposing the idea of including the quotation I placed above. I would argue that if it is useful, it should be placed in the Childhood section and not in the lead. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, my remark (and insertion of the alternate name) is really purely usability/navigational/"principle of least surprise". Not knowing what to think that you guys appear to be able to make anything as simple as that into something that needs to be included in a POV-pushers agenda. THERE IS NO POV IN MENTIONING THE ALTERNATE NAME OF AN INCOMING LINK IN THE LEAD SECTION. We do it everywere: Pontius Pilate's wife has six alternate names in bold in the first sentence; William III of England has at least as many alternate names in the first three paragraphs of the intro; Erik Satie has two pen names in the third paragraph of the intro; Bolzano of course mentions "Bozen" (and 5 other alternatives) in the first sentence of the intro, etc. etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed this uncited inclusion.Momento (talk) 22:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The use of Sant Ji and Balyogeshwar can be sourced to Cagan's book. I still believe that it is better placed at the Childhood section, has he was called these names only for the first 8 years of his life. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I have once again had to remove the uncited material about Balyogeshwar. This is a BLP Francis, you can't just include stuff because you like it.Momento (talk) 10:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
(1) The material is cited to a RS (in fact, a RS that was already in the article) ; (2) You removed, without discernable reason, material that had a reference. Then, you also left the referencing footnote in the first sentence, while it is unclear why this would be a reference for the phrase where it is now attached to <ref name="Mangalwadi"> does apparently not use "Guru Maharaj Ji" when referring to Prem Rawat: that source uses "Balyogeshwar" when referring to him. All of this amounts to some pretty disruptive editing on your part. (3) why on earth would it be a BLP to mention an incoming redirect in the lead section? (compare Misplaced Pages:Lead section#Bold title: "The name of the subject is often identical to the page title, although it may appear in a slightly different form from that used as the title, and it may include variations.") --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
References should appear at the end of the sentence. Thanks.Momento (talk) 10:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no such requirement. Misplaced Pages:Footnotes is on my watchlist now for quite some time, since I wrote its initial version. Such requirement has never been part of the style recommendations included in that guideline. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I have no problem with the Mangalwadi reference Francis. You haven't provided a source for your addition "less frequently".Momento (talk) 10:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
If you don't dispute the name then please don't delete the name. It's unhelpful to delete parts that you don't dispute. If the name is disputed then the redirect should be deleted too. If the reidrect is undisputed then it should be mentioned here. Alternate names are traditionally mentioned in the lede. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Pay more attention to what I write. I know Rawat was called Balyogeshwar and Mangalwadi provides a reliable and verifiable source. But where did the "less frequently" come from if not out of Francis's OR.Momento (talk) 11:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Still, disruptive editing on your part. You could have removed the few words you contested, without removing the part you didn't contest. And even less disruptive, you could simply have followed what the third paragraph of Misplaced Pages *policy* WP:V#Burden of evidence advises: "...editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references". I do object, while you're obviously too interested in finding ways to game the system. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
What Francis said. If you don't like "less frequently" then take it out. It is completely unreasonable and contentious to remove the whole referenced phrase. Msalt (talk) 18:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
An editor is responsible for their edits. Francis should never have put "less frequently" in, it is complete OR. So I am not removing "the whole referenced phrase" since the "whole phrase is NOT referenced". I don't believe Balyogeshwar should be in the lede. One, suggesting Balyogeshwar or Sant Ji is a name or title of similar importance as Prem Rawat, Guru Maharaj Ji or Maharaji is OR. Prem Rawat is his legal name and he has chosen to use Maharaji ( formerly Guru Maharaj ji) and continues to do so. And two, Balyogeshwar is a description given by others, like "The Iron Lady" was used to describe Margaret Thatcher.Momento (talk) 00:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
The "Iron Lady" is in the lead section of the Misplaced Pages article on Margaret Thatcher. I'd like to follow that example and close this incident. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento -- uh, you just said yourself 3 paragraphs earlier that "I know Rawat was called Balyogeshwar and Mangalwadi provides a reliable and verifiable source." You're way out on a limb here. Seriously, pick your battles. This is a tiny, non-controversial thing. Alternate names go in the lede. I'm glad you're discussing this here but what you are saying makes no sense. Msalt (talk) 06:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Balyogeshwar isn't alternative name. It's an historic title of little consequence. If you put in Balyogeshwar, you have to put in Sant Ji.Momento (talk) 12:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about "have to", but I personally think 'Sant Ji' should be listed too. Francis? As I've said, the lineage through the Sant tradition is (to me) fascinating and a perfect example of the kind of information an encyclopedia should provide -- like noting that the band The White Stripes derive from the blues tradition. One doesn't understand them nearly as well without knowing that. Msalt (talk) 19:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Names related to Rawat's Childhood may well come within the purview of WP:INDIA, excising these names because they are 'historic' and therefore of little consequence would seem at very least to go against the spirit of WP:INDIA and it is surely poor manners to remove the Indian titles from the lede without any reference to WP:INDIA.

--Nik Wright2 (talk) 15:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


Historic things are not of little consequence? Balyogeshwar=Iron lady? I understood that Balyogeshwar means 'Born Lord of Yogis' I can remember that much myself from 1975 when I asked what it meant. (By the way he was still called that well into the mid-seventies and still IS known by that title to many Indians who are naturally uninformed as to how he's changed his name since then. Also there are Indians here in the UK who call him that still! Shouldn't they be able to find Rawat through searching for Balyogeshwar here? Watching this debate from a distance (rather than being personally subject to Momento's simply puerile, tortuous logic for once) it's very obvious that he is an outrageously hostile editor who is simply mocking the intelligence of the incredibly patient other editors here. I really think it's way beyond time he was banned from this article . There has been such consistent and vociferous complaint already something surely needs to be done now. I would classify his obstructive comments here as aggressive 'filibustering'. Msalt, and others.. have you considered the possible abject futility of ploughing on with your corrections here as you are patiently doing? I worry about your future sanity when you take a well-earned break to return only to find that he has completely reverted the article to his taste. That's what he is waiting to do. Is there anything that can be done to protect your work? You may have noticed I have been terminally discouraged from making actual edits. That is not because I can't, it's because I am not prepared to let him mock my efforts any more than he has done already. How many people actually stick around here to make substantial sense of this article? My observation is that 90% have fled in frustration and that is basically because no-one has successfully banned Jossi, Momento and their POV pushing friends from acting as if they own and should control the information in this article. Isn't it the case that Jossi has successfully banned some rather eloquent ex-premie voices from here for far less crimes? What is so fair about that when he tolerates this degree of disruption , year in year out from Momento?PatW (talk) 14:48, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

(a) You do not have to shout; (b) I have banned no one; (c) I cannot and have not exercised my admin privileges in this or any other article I have actively edited; (e) I have warned editor, including Momento in many occasions; (f) despite all the brouhaha no one has been able to provide any evidence of abuse in editing this article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

OK if it is true that you have banned no one then I unmitigatingly apologise. But please tell me by what process have people been banned? I understood that some ex-premies were banned? Is that untrue then?PatW (talk) 16:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

PS. I have deleted my heading which you think was unnecessarily loud.PatW (talk) 16:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

As far as I remember, no one has been banned. Maybe some editors had their editing privileges temporarily removed, for disruption, personal attacks, or edit warring, but that's all. And these remedies were implemented by uninvolved admins. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
PatW, I certainly understand your frustration, but I think you undercut yourself with your anger and personal attacks. Above all, please do not lump Jossi in with Momento. I haven't been here that long but from what I've seen Jossi has been (with only brief exception) patient, thoughtful, and fair-minded. He has even borne arguably patronizing advice from this noob with good grace. I can't find a single edit he's made to the article in 2 weeks. His talk contributions are, yes, mostly to the pro-Rawat side but not exclusively and so what? We're all entitled to our opinions. The COI filing on him failed because no one could list edits or administrative actions that bore criticism. Your apology to him above was very nice, thanks for doing that.
People can and should get chastised, limited or even banned for personal attacks and disruptive editing. Only Momento has in my brief time here, and he earned it for disruptive editing. Thanks for not doing that. Clearly, he is taking actions that risk some kind of permanent ban. But your attacks are also inappropriate, and in any case aren't doing your cause any good.
And thanks for the compliment and warning (patience but have you considered the futility?). I think I understand the situation. It COULD all be reverted -- any work done on Misplaced Pages is like that. Then again, peace has broken out in Northern Ireland and Liberia, so you never know. I'm inspired by the Tibetan monks who spend hours making beautiful sand paintings and let them blow away in the wind. Don't you think the world is a better place for that? Otherwise, all one can do is build bunkers. Msalt (talk) 19:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
A better analogy might be that the Tibetan Monks paintings are being trashed by someone before the wind blows them away and that there are quite a few people that want to see those paintings who are being deprived of the opportunity. I've slept on your last question and I wake up with these thoughts: There may be no virtue lost in fighting, but ultimately losing a righteous battle. It is certainly more desirable to win a righteous battle and wiser to only engage in fights where you know your strength and are sure of winning. I understand there is some value in simply arguing for right but I think there is even more value in winning your case. WP fascinates me in as much as it is almost an experiment in defining ethics by teamwork. WP sort of invites unethical people to abuse/game the system and then people publicly challenge them on it, really only appealing to their shame to withdraw, but not actually forcing them. Interesting experiment indeed. PatW (talk) 09:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
For Jossi's commitment to not edit the page, see the link in Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 29#Declaration of intent. I want to express again I appreciate Jossi for that. It was no easy call on his part, I'm convinced of that. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Getting back to the topic at hand, I see that "Balyogeshwar" has been added, but not " Sant Ji Maharaj". Hans_Ji_Maharaj#Succession says that it was the name used by Rawat in 1966. It seems easy to simply list former names. Will Beback NS (talk) 22:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I added it. Msalt (talk) 23:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I find it incredible that anyone would claim Rawat is known as Sant Ji in the lede. Sant Ji is an affectionate term used by many Indian teachers and used about Rawat when he was a child. Why not put in Prem as well? Or Guru Ji. Or Captain Rawat? For more than 30 years Rawat has used either his own name or the title Maharaji (Formerly Guru Maharaj Ji), this is the only "alternative name" we should include. Balyogeshwar is a Hindi description given by others when Rawat was a child, not an "alternative name". Since there is no reliable, verifiable source that claims Rawat is currently "known as" Sant JI" I have removed it. Momento (talk) 23:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento, above you wrote:

Balyogeshwar is a description given by others, like "The Iron Lady" was used to describe Margaret Thatcher.

I answered

The "Iron Lady" is in the lead section of the Misplaced Pages article on Margaret Thatcher. I'd like to follow that example and close this incident.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 00:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
That's right Francis. We'll note that in the lede.Momento (talk) 00:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see any objective way of differentiating the relative importance of the names. All of these names are used as redirects to this article. If you don't want them in the lede then which section do you propose we put them in? Will Beback NS (talk) 00:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
(examples I already gave above:)
For my views:
  • "(Formerly Guru Maharaj Ji)" can stay in, at a certain point in time he disavowed to be further called "Guru";
  • "Balyogeshwar" should definitely stay in the lead, too different from the other ones, too "principle of least surprise" when redirected here. That it is less used is referenceable, still not understanding the fuss Momento makes about it. In fact he recognised it himself: "suggesting Balyogeshwar or Sant Ji is a name or title of similar importance as Prem Rawat, Guru Maharaj Ji or Maharaji is OR" - it is no OR to state it is used less frequently. Instead of nitpicking, you're better informed what would be the best source for that, but as far as I'm concerned it doesnt need a specific source, it's self-evident. It is not "contested", unless for POINTy reasons;
  • "Sant Ji", not necessarily: Sant is explained in the article, and "Ji" is a recognisable part of his name already explicited in the lead. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I still don't think that it belongs in the lead. But if there is consensus to have it there, I would argue that it would be best to list them in chronological order, giving emphasis to his most known names (See WP:MOS. My suggestion would be , as per other biographical articles:

Prem Rawat (b. Prem Pal Singh Rawat, December 10, 1957 in Haridwar, India), also Maharaji (previously known as Sant Ji, Balyogeshwar, and Guru Maharaj Ji,) has been a speaker on the subject of inner peace since the age of eight, as well as offering instruction of four meditation techniques he calls Knowledge.

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Incorrect, he's still known as "Balyogeshwar", although that's maybe not what he chose: "being known as" is not what one chooses for oneself. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Could you provide a source for that claim please?Momento (talk) 00:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
As long as this source is still widely available, and people can read it, he's still known under that name. That's not something that changes in a few years, as is also apparent here - this has nothing to do with the reliability of a source, someone is "known as", or he isn't. The lead of William III of England states this king is "known as" King Billy. Whether he liked it or not. And without a reference, because that's not contested. So stop the nitpicking on trivialities. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
This 1992 print refers to Divine Light Mission, clearly dating it to the 70s. And please don't use self published websites as sources, they are expressly prohibited by BLP policy.Momento (talk) 01:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, do you support Momento unilaterally deleting "Sant Ji" despite this discussion? Does anyone support Momento's edit? Will Beback NS (talk) 00:25, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Alternatively, as proposed above, we could list his childhood names in the "Childhood" section. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
The "objective way of differentiating the relative importance of the names" is simple and logical. Prem Rawat is his name and he calls himself "Maharaji". Putting in a foreign language courtesy title (Blayogeshwar) and an affectionate childhood name is unnecessary.Momento (talk) 00:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento, (this might come as a shock) "There's no such thing as objectivity. Everybody with any philosophical sophistication knows that. " (Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/FAQ#There's no such thing as objectivity) --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento, is it too hard for you to wait for a consensus before editing? If "Sant Ji" isn't a name that Rawat is known by then we should delete the redirect. Will Beback NS (talk) 00:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm removing it because it doesn't have a source. BLP policy is clear " Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space".Momento (talk) 00:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
As said above: the material is not contentious, unless for POINTy reasons. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
If Momento believes that it is incorrect then it should be removed from Hans_Ji_Maharaj#Succession too the and the redirect should be deleted. If there are no objections I'll do so myself. Will Beback NS (talk) 00:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't need to be "contentious" Francis. To be removed it just needs to be "unsourced".Momento (talk) 00:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
So you're just pasting quotes without even *reading* them:

Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately

(my bolding) If the material is not contentious, just removing it is no more nor less than causing disruption. And it has to stop. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
The sentence reads "unsourced" OR "poorly sourced contentious material". I don't know why I always have to be the one to point out the obvious, Misplaced Pages demands sources as per "Verifiable" - Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. AND "you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented". This is basic Misplaced Pages stuff. Momento (talk) 01:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
The quote only speaks about contentious material, unsourced or poorly sourced. And your disruption has to stop. Your other new quotes only confirm what I say (BTW, it goes all back to a Jimbo Wales quote, who qualifies the type of information eligible for instant removal thus: "some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information" ). E.g. (with my bolding): "any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged". There's no blanket approval to remove uncontentious, unchallenged, and unlikely to be challenged material. Removing such material is known as Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. Even if there's no reference yet. And you're slowly but with determination running out of chances to prove that you're not a troll or some sort of vandal. --Francis Schonken (talk) 01:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Changing the structure of sentence to alter its meaning is completely unacceptable Francis. The sentence reads "unsourced" OR "poorly sourced contentious material". Not "contentious material, unsourced or poorly sourced". Why aren't we following the Verifiability policy which clearly states - "that readers should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source". It is a core policy of Misplaced Pages, no source, no inclusion.Momento (talk) 01:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Your disruption has to stop, that's all I'm saying. --Francis Schonken (talk) 01:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey, please cool it, OK? Can we stick for a while to a decent and constructive debate? Progress is being made, and will be made if editors keep away from each other's throats. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
That's correct Will. The succession sentence implies that Prem Rawat was known as "Sant Ji" not "Prem Rawat".Momento (talk) 00:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Much of a do about nothing? He was called "Sant Ji" until 8 years of age. Then he was called "Balygeshwar" along side "Guru Maharaj Ji". (Some in India still recognize him as Balyogeshwar from the early days). Then he was called just "Maharaji". All these names can be explained and are supported by sources. Can we at least agree on that first? Then we can look for ways on how best to present the information. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The principle is under what name he should be recognisable from the outset of the article. I gave my preferences above. Whether one is more historically correct or not is not the point. The lead section is about recognition: am I at the right article?, etc for readers who are or who are not acquainted with the article's subject. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Source for "Sant Ji": H. W. Wilson Company, Current Biography Year Book, v.35. (1974), p. 21.
  • Source for "Balyogeshwar" Aravamudan, Srinivas. Guru English: South Asian Religion in a Cosmopolitan Language (Translation/Transnation). Princeton, N.J: Princeton University Press. pp. p.229. ISBN 0-691-11828-0. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone I know and trust has written to me telling me that in India Rawat's followers generally have never known him as Guru Maharaj Ji, as that is a title given to practically any guru in India, but they know him as Balyogeshwar. Of course this source can't be used in the article, but it does cast doubt on Jossi's claim that the name was only used when Rawat was a child. My vote, for what it's worth, is that the name should be included in the lede. --John Brauns (talk) 01:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Uh? I said above that in India, some still recognize him as Balyogeswar. You may have missed it. Nowadays he is known as "Maharaji" and "Shree Prem Rawat" in India. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:10, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I tried to point out that there are older Indians here in the UK who still call Rawat 'Balyogeshwar'. Shouldn't older Indian people be catered for to easily find Rawat through searching for Balyogeshwar here? What's the big deal in making the association clear and in the lede? Isn't it logical and appropriate to state what a subjects name is and was before you launch into further commentary? Especially if those names were significantly popular or widespread, as Balyogeshwar clearly was?PatW (talk) 01:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
There is agreement that the name "Balyogeshwar" can be used, as there are sources that verify that information. The discussion, I believe, is where to have that information, and if it suitable for a the lead. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Jossi do you ever read what I actually write before trotting out some knee jerk response which shows that you haven't? Read again and you'll see I was saying why I think his popular name(s) should be made clear first thing.PatW (talk)

I'm OK with John Brauns' version of the intro - which I think is my last version of the same. --Francis Schonken (talk) 01:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I just got home from work and had to read 4460 new words of discussion just to keep up to date on everyone's opinion of one word of text. Rumiton (talk) 10:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
That's what's so beautiful about this place. It's not just about the end goal it's about learning to enjoy the journey. The beauty lies in arriving at an ethical consensus by debate even if that means debating minutiae, sometimes ad nauseam.  :-)PatW (talk) 11:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Momento, Jossi has given us sources for the use of "Sant Ji", a name that you deleted from the article because it was unsourced. Could you please restore it now? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with putting affectionate names from childhood in the article. And I'm wondering about putting foreign language names like Balyogeshwar in English Misplaced Pages.Momento (talk) 21:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
A) We have sources that indicate it was the name he was called in childhood. B) We have no sources saying it was merely an "affectionate name". C) We use that name in other articles that include redirects to this article. D) Your personal preferences are not the sole determination of content. You're welcome to disagree, but deleting sourced material based on your personal preferences is inappropriate. Unless you can find a legitimate policy reaosn to exclude this name, and to delte it from elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, I am going to restore it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:05, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
This discussion has gone for long enough, and we have sources now. Can we find a compromise and add these names (Sant Ji and Balyogeshwar) to the "Childhood" section as a compromise? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento's objections don't appear to be about the placement of the names in the article, but about their inclusion anywhere. It's normal to include all names in the lede, but there's certainly room for flexibility in that regard. There appears to be doubt that the terms were limited to his childhood, so it's not ideal. Perhaps a better solution would be to mention the names in the lead and then explaining his names as they are applicable to the different time periods. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
We're solidly on target for Lamest Edit Wars with this one, I'm afraid. Glad we agree on having the name. How about putting the alternate names in a separate second paragraph of the lede? Msalt (talk) 02:20, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I object to putting temporary Hindi titles in the lede. Balyogeswhar only appears in one book published in India in 1977. Sant JI was an affectionate Hindi childhood name not used in 30 years. This is English Misplaced Pages or should we also write Prem Rawat in Hebrew for our Israeli readers..Momento (talk) 11:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento, please stop filibustering, and start informing yourself; e.g.:
  • "Balyogeswhar only appears in one book published in India in 1977" – we have at least two books, as far as I can see published in the Western hemisphere, and I don't even know which of these would be from 1977:
    • Mangalwadi, Vishal. The World of Gurus Revised edition (July 1992). Cornerstone Pr Chicago. ISBN 094089503X (this is the one currently in the article - note that there's a 1999 revised edition too )
    • Aravamudan, Srinivas. Guru English: South Asian Religion in a Cosmopolitan Language (Translation/Transnation). Princeton, N.J: Princeton University Press. pp. p.229. ISBN 0-691-11828-0. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help) (the one mentioned by Jossi above, I found this one to be published in 2006 )
These petty discussions based on thin air should've stopped by now. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC) updated book references 12:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Sant Ji (section break)

As I mentioned above Sant Ji was a redlink, that is: was: I just started it as a disambig page. For as far I can tell "Sant" is not a part of the name properly speaking (as The Honourable would not be part of someone's name, properly speaking - only very few people were successful in making a given epithet/honorific become their actual name, compare Augustus/Augustus (honorific)); "Ji" on the other hand is a name shared by many (among which Prem Rawat), some of whom are also "Sant" (see disambig page I created).

As for the Prem Rawat article, I resume my previous argument: the "Sant" tradition is explained in the article. "Sant + second part of the name Maharaj Ji", is a combination self-evident from the article as a name that can refer to Maharaj Ji. In other words, I don't see the "principle of least surprise" as a valid argument to keep Sant Ji in the lead section. There's no real confusion to be avoided. Apart from that, Sant Ji is less often used than (for instance) Balyogeshwar (that's my personal appreciation, after going through quite some text external to Misplaced Pages on this person). --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Sant Ji was an affectionate diminutive for Prem Rawat as a child, never used since. Sant is Hindi, roughly means "holy man." Ji is not a name, it is a mild honorific, like Mr in English, or San in Japanese. Rumiton (talk) 10:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Francis, Guru Maharaj Ji referred to himself as "Sant Ji Maharaj" in many letters to premies over the years in the 70s, including after he was married at age 16, by virtue of signing those letters "Sant Ji Maharaj." These letters were published in "And It Is Divine," and "Divine Times" magazines in which he was listed as the "Supreme Editor in Chief." They were published in the United States out of DLM Headquarters in Denver, Colorado. Sant Ji was a moniker that Rawat commonly used when writing to his devotees, so he absolutely was known as "Sant ji Maharaj." Here's one that was published in "Divine Times" in Volume 3 Issue 4, October 15, 1974, in which he thanks premies for providing him and Durga Ji (Marolyn) with his home in Malibu, California (the same one in which he now resides): Thank You Letter, and here's the one inviting premies to Millennium: Millennium Letter. Sylviecyn (talk) 22:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Removal

I object to this edit. It removes content that does not need to be removed. The edit summary says "removed excessive, unnecessary and non-encylcopedic detail". If you believe so, please discuss. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Again? Please see #Talk page discipline.
The edit is discussed above at #Status of “Peace Is Possible” --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to move it there. The objection stands for lack of consensus for removal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
And the edit, removes other sources that are not discussed in that section. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
To be more clear, I am discussing my edit of the "Other Aspects" section -- removing the paragraph about Rawat's investments -- in the section Did Donations Make Him Rich, where the topic was in progress. I am discussing the Cagan book as a source in that existing section. I will however discuss my edit of the 1980 travel and speaking engagements below, in a new section, because I don't think there is a current section for it. Msalt (talk) 20:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe the consensus was that the book is fine for uncontroversial information. That is what these sentences are. I have restored them. Rumiton (talk) 04:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Just had to restore this absolutely uncontroversial information yet again. No consensus has been reached. Please discuss here. Rumiton (talk) 05:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Rumiton, I discussed this edit before the fact and have continued it after, in the #Status of “Peace Is Possible” section. I think my explanations are reasonably clear. Please join us there for that discussion. Msalt (talk) 19:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion above has shown this info to be both controversial, disputed, and as it is only sourced to self-referential, self-published sources as discussed above, it should not be in the article. That is, unless it could be sourced to some better WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources not affiliated heavily with the subject of the article himself. Cirt (talk) 16:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I will continue to discuss this in the #Status of “Peace Is Possible” section Msalt (talk) 18:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it is highly unbalanced, to say the least, to report Mishlers - admittedly unsupported - appraisal of a predominantly money-grabbing leadership in the "Critisism"-section, simultaneously deleting Cagan's statement on the origin of Rawat's income, calling it contentious, while casually overlooking the fact, that Rawat does not charge people for being taught the techniques of Knowledge, or seeing him at a program. Not only unbalanced, but plainly manipulative, hopefully unintentionally. Please respond, whoever.--Rainer P. (talk) 20:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This issue is being discussed in the section #Did Donations Make Him Rich. Please discuss this up there. I will quote your comment in that section and reply there. Msalt (talk) 21:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the necessity to move to another section, as it is being discussed here. And I do not feel my observation has been responded to. I rather feel slightly patronized. Anyway thanks for trying.--Rainer P. (talk) 22:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Your observation has been responded to at some length in #Did Donations Make Him Rich, where the conversation continues. I'm sorry if you feel patronized, that was certainly not my intention. The need to keep discussions centralized predates my presence here; I'm just trying to follow the rules. You can read the reasons at #Talk page discipline. Msalt (talk) 02:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't find anything there that relates to my request. Is it yet possible that you do can not communicate? Amazing experience! Is there anybody else out there?--Rainer P. (talk) 08:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm very sorry, I forgot to put the # in my link to the local section. Thanks for checking. I fixed it now, or you can use this link: #Did Donations Make Him Rich. The last 6 paragraphs as I write this, starting with "Rainer P. wrote...." Msalt (talk) 08:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Rawat's Travel in 1980

I am editing the Coming of Age section because it contains unnecessary and non-encyclopedic detail, specifically, a list of a dozen cities Rawat visited on his 1980 tour. Before reverting this edit again, please justify why this detail belongs in the article. I know of no other comparable speakers that receive this kind of treatment in Misplaced Pages or any other encyclopedia; compare Tom Peters, Robert Bly, Deepak Chopra, etc. Are we now going to list band tour dates in their articles? And why does it matter that Rawat spoke on "newly purchased land"? Msalt (talk) 20:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Westernization Section

I removed yet another reference to Rawat piloting his own plane, this time in the Westernization section. This is already discussed under "Other Aspects", and is based solely on an unreliable source (Cagan.) As I discussed under the section for Status of "Peace is Possible", the repeated emphasis on him flying aircraft serves no purpose in his biography other than hagiography (or making him look cool; I don't want to get into word parsing here.) It makes sense to mention once in the article, and we do. Please justify the need for repetition if you disagree.

I am also struck by the hagiography and weak sourcing of the third paragraph in this section. The list of cities and crowds reached is standard advertising or resume language, the type used to aggrandize the subject. The worst offender is the sentence "In December 1998, he spoke live via an interactive satellite broadcast from Pasadena, California to 86,600 participants at 173 locations in 50 countries." It is completely unsourced. Can anyone justify its presence here?

The following line (he began regular satellite broadcasts) is less controversial but also poorly sourced. It references a clearly pro-Rawat website that has no author listed and makes no claim of being self-published by him ("It is our pleasure to help make Maharaji’s message available.") (It has links to the website of Prem Rawat (Maharaji.net), which it identifies as a website he created, to the Prem Rawat Foundation, and to the publisher of Cagan's book on its front page.)

I would like to hear feedback and suggestions, but my opinion is that at least the line about the 1998 satellite broadcast needs to be removed. The WP:BLP policy that Momento and Rumiton are so fond of states quite clearly that unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material in a BLP needs to be removed -- "whether negative, positive, or just questionable".

Again, I urge editors to step back from the subject of this article and look at articles about other, less controversial but estimable speaker/authors, such as Tom Peters, Robert Bly, or Deepak Chopra. None of their pages contains lists of cities attended and crowd sizes, rebuttals to critics, investment strategies or impressive hobbies (like flying airplanes.) They are all shorter and, in my opinion, clearly more encyclopedic. I enjoy parsing WikiPolicy as much as anyone, but given the difficulties we have had reaching agreement on this page, I offer them as a good guidepost for where to take this page. Msalt (talk) 06:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Cagan is not an "unreliable source." She is a source perfectly acceptable for uncontentious information. In your "feedback and suggestions" para, I think you might not have noticed the word "contentious." This is the stuff that needs to be removed in a WP:BLP. Ordinary stuff is fine, and it is not contentious that he has spoken internationally by satellite and continues with a very high level of travel and public speaking. But I agree with most of what you say. Short is nice. Much of the effort in the last 12 months, following the good article review, went towards debloating the article, not looking for more stuff to throw in it. But once we got stuck with a criticism section it seemed there had to be some positive things for balance, and then more criticism to balance that. I notice that none of the articles you mention have a criticism section. If they had, you can bet they would have swelled up to 5 times that length. Misplaced Pages guidelines used to discuss this issue to good effect, but I can no longer find the reference. Rumiton (talk) 13:08, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I beg your pardon. Chopra does have a criticism section. Apart from that my comments stand. Rumiton (talk) 14:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Lots of agreement here, great to see it. However, without endless parsing (not reliable vs. unreliable, etc.), Cagan does not qualify as a reliable source for a BLP. I suggested following Jossi's words of using Cagan for uncontroversial points as a compromise; this follows from the fact that BLP policy strictly prohibits unreliable sources for contentious points, positive or negative. Which implies that unreliable sources may be OK for uncontentious points.
My hope was to sidestep the long thrash about Cagan by making it moot; if she is not used for contentious points, then we don't really need to decide how reliable she is. None of which makes the book any more reliable or verifiable than it is.
As for what is contentious or controversial, look at your own words -- "a very high level of travel and public speaking". This is original research by you, clearly a pro-Rawat statement not supported by an independent, third party source. I don't find the fact that Rawat speaks by satellite contentious, but claiming that he spoke to 83,000 people in X number of countries is an unverified (in fact, unsourced) statement with a clear purpose of presenting him as a highly successful speaker.
None of the articles on the comparable speakers I cited make laudatory claims of that nature. This is why I suggest these claims are POV, not encyclopedic. If you think that Robert Bly or Tom Peters need Criticism sections to fairly represent their notability, then by all means create them! I don't follow either that closely but recall vaguely a fair bit of ridicule at Bly or at least his followers for being silly or pretentious. I'm sure Peters has been accused of trendiness or some such. Anyone holding themselves up as a source of wisdom or insight invites such critiques, and I think that's fair. I say that as a writer who gets a fair bit of criticism myself for my political scandal website. Msalt (talk) 18:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

There being no specific objection, I went ahead and deleted the unsourced line about speaking to 86,000 people via satellite in Dec. 1998. While I was in the neighborhood, I shortened the line that followed about satellite broadcasts to say "to North American and other countries." I believe the meaning is unchanged. (Yes I realize that is slightly ungrammatical, but the mistake was there before, just separated by more words.) I also combined his now shorter paragraph with the one that follows -- together they are now a good paragraph size. Msalt (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Good edit, Msalt. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much! Msalt (talk) 19:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

Given recent press coverage of this article and the blatant conflicts of interests that have gone into its makeup, I believe the NPOV tag must remain on this article until unrelated editors, those who have not edited this article before and who are unrelated to Rawat, can throughly go over the article. Of course, their sockpuppetts may make that impossible. 216.114.82.56 (talk) 19:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I consider myself an unrelated editor who had not edited this article before (as of what, Feb 15?), is unrelated to Rawat and is pretty thoroughly going over it. It's a lot of work. Instead of a drive-by tagging, why don't you roll up your sleeves and pitch in? Logging in is cool, too. Msalt (talk) 06:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's make one thing clear first: we don't write articles to please Cade Metz.
If Cade Metz thinks he can write a better article, he should just come over here and do it.
Cade Metz is not "The Truth" about Misplaced Pages, although he would probably like to think so.
Regarding your criteria of who can contribute to the Misplaced Pages article on Prem Rawat:
  1. Please provide a list of names of those who, in your view, are eligible to author the Misplaced Pages article on Rawat.
  2. I don't agree with your criterion "those who have not edited this article before" - this criterion also bears no relation to the idea of NPOV
  3. I don't agree with your criterion "those who are unrelated to Rawat" – again, no relation with NPOV.
If you can't indicate where the NPOV problem with the article content lies, please explain why we should maintain a tag on the article placed there by an anonymous? --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Well done Francis. I have removed the tag.Momento (talk) 00:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted that more impartial editors like you, Francis are here. But would you be here if there had been no Cade Metz article? Would anyone be here other than existing people with COI I wonder? By the way I know that followers here persistently cast critics as a tiny minority who are relatively insignificant etc. The fact remains that it has been the critics loud woes and frustrations with this article that clearly came to the attention of Cade Metz and goodness knows who else, so it is really thanks to them that this NPOV matter has been drawn into attention. There was clearly a problem with excessive COI as most of you recently enjoined editors must surely agree. As far as I know it was Rawat critic, Mike Finch's public criticisms of Jossi Fresco that came to wider attention and are at the root of this new-found interest in cleaning up this article. I would point out a) that Finch's public hitting back is apparently the direct result of frustrations right here with Jossi (Finch pioneered this article I believe) and b) That if there was no substance to his accusations then no-one would be interested. PatW (talk) 16:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Re. "would you be here if there had been no Cade Metz article?" – I was here a year before Cade Metz wrote his article. I dropped out after about a week. Not that I'm the self-accusatory type, but I'm still a bit mad at myself that I dropped out then, and thus laid Misplaced Pages open to this assault on its reputation. I've come to the resolution not to drop out this time, until the Prem Rawat article is on a good track.
I'll give a bit more context. Cade Metz wrote (on p. 4 of his article):

Working in tandem with others, soon created a separate article called "Criticism of Prem Rawat," moved all Rawat criticisms to this new article, and eventually had it deleted.
"All critical material was moved to an article of its own: 'Criticism of Prem Rawat," says a senior admin. "Jossi created that, with the intent that it wouldn't over-burden the main article. But then that article was merged back into the main article and basically deleted. All that critical material was pretty much all deleted, so the current article bears very little resemblance to the article of two years ago. It's shorter, and it's all positive."

Well, I played a role there (I had first barely recognised that under Cade Metz's heavy gloss/distortion),
  1. "But then that article was merged back into the main article", I performed the merge (it was not until Jossi drew my attention to it that I remembered)
  2. I dropped out about a week later, but not until a basic integration of the criticism (in a "Reception" section, per Misplaced Pages:Criticism) had been performed.
  3. Note that in both edit summaries of the merge I had referred to Misplaced Pages:List of POV forks, a now deleted page. As far as I remember Jossi was a heavy supporter of that now deleted page, which aimed at doing away with virtually all "Criticism of..." pages. (But I'd need to see the edit history of that now deleted page to check whether my recollection is not erring here). Anyway whether Jossi supported or objected to the merge back into the Prem Rawat article, I can't recall any more. But he did create the "Criticism of Prem Rawat" article
  4. Anyway, a year later the criticism was as good as gone from the Prem Rawat article. When I had left, Jossi, Momento, and Andries were the ones I remembered best as still editing the article. From what I understand afterwards Andries had vigorously tried to keep the criticism in, but was overruled time and again by Jossi, Momento and Rumiton. (Roles of others I'm not that informed about).
So, no, it's better to never let that happen again. I don't like Misplaced Pages getting bad press over something we're all responsible to avoid.
Pat, I don't know whether that answers your question, but I tried. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time to reply so fully. That was considerate and not something that I'm used to. You seem to agree that bad press can actually be a wake up call.PatW (talk) 00:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but it's largely preferable to have good articles, and good press as a result of that. --Francis Schonken (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Note that I also recognise that regarding the tiny part of the Cade Metz article I knew more about, when looking under the layer of varnish and distortion, Cade Metz was not too far from what had really happened – of course helped by an anonymous "senior admin" (whatever that may mean, and whoever it is, I don't know). I say that, knowing that Jimbo Wales' stock reaction to a Cade Metz article is: "thoroughly unreliable", but then of course Jimbo only can speak about what he is more informed about himself. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Quite.PatW (talk) 22:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

There was no such "excessive COI", PatW. This is what the closer of the COI case said:After 88 KB of hand-wringing, we finally have a presentation of diffs that show Jossi edits the article, but no evidence of disruption, edit-warring, or misuse of administrative tools. The Conflict of Interest guidelines do not prohibit COI editing;. Pat, I will not tolerate such type of observations in this talk page, particular after your insistence in using this page to cast aspersions on people here: You have been warned already, several times for personal attacks. If you want to initiate a debate about this issue, read the closer's statement and follow his advice. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

No personal attack Jossi. I think I was merely considering the facts and that this Metz publicity has drawn some attention to this article which is rather welcome and healthy. Are you seriously denying that COI hasn't caused problems here and that Mike Finch hasn't criticised you in the way I said? And BTW I am not pointing fingers at you in particular for your COI. You declared your COI as have I. Also my criticisms about Momento are hardly 'aspersions'. Consider the fact that our new friends have even described his behaviour as 'disruptive' and they seem to be models of patience (at least compared to me).PatW (talk) 16:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Rather than engage in discussions about the editors, it would be best to invest our energies in discussing ways to improve the article. Some progress is being made already, and as far as I can see, Momento has already made changes in his previous behavior. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree. But I also think PatW has a fair point that his mention of COI was not really a personal attack the way you describe it. When I read it, I assumed he was talking about Momento and Rumiton,. As you note, the proof of COI is in the pudding (of an editor's actions, to butcher a metaphor) and I don't think it's unfair to describe Momento in particular as someone who appears to be consistently editing in the service of a private interest rather than the Wiki project. Are we not allowed to point out that elephant in this room? Is there a different and better way to handle it? Msalt (talk) 07:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The proof of the non-NPOV nature of this article, if any be required, is that User:Momento removed the NPOV tag. In light of the Informer article mentioned at the top of this secion (which fortunately can't be edited by premies and will no doubt remain around until Mr Rawat's legal team has finished with it), Momento is one person not qualified to do that without reinforcing the suspicion, as intimated in that article, that the article is indeed a whitewash. What is needed is a proper analysis, including all points of view, of the evidence supporting the contention that Prem Rawat is a fraud, how he benefits from the contributions of his 'listeners', what his views are on the joys of flying around in a private jet whenever he feels like and the environmental 'benefits' of so doing, whether the organisations that he fronts are using wikipedia and paying to get people to contribute to wikipedia as part of their public relations tactics and, most importantly, whether Rawat's 'message' still operates to hypnotise people (as it did in the 70s) into becoming zombies as per the body of knowledge we have about the social damage that cults can cause. Note, I am remaining anonymous because I am fearful of retaliation otherwise from agents of Mr Rawat's empire in light of warnings received from various sources.147.114.226.172 (talk) 18:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

No, User:Momento removing the NPOV tag is no "proof of the non-NPOV nature of this article". We need something more substantial than that to demonstrate a NPOV problem. Tag-warring is not a proof of anything w.r.t. the POV/NPOV state of the article. Note also that the article has undergone changes and improvements since Cade Metz wrote his article in "The Register". So his language does not longer apply to the current content of the article. "NPOV" is a content assessment, not a behaviour assessment of editors. For behaviour problems there are other things that can be done, for instance Misplaced Pages:Semi-protection (which was applied for some time shortly after Cade Metz' article was published).
Momento is also perfectly "qualified" to do what he did. In fact any editor is "qualified" to do such things. Whether it was wise to do so is another question. Edit-warring with an anonymous editor over cleanup templates is indeed quite unwise. Momento should at least have given an anonymous editor the time to explain him/herself. I tried to give that opportunity, but still, if you can't indicate where the content of the article lacks NPOV, and in what way, and nobody else provides a good argument on the article's bias, the tag should go.
Regarding the content remarks you give about the article, a nice start would be that you indicate in which reliable sources we can find the contentions you think that should need to be in the article. A lot of the discussion here is about the reliability of such sources. Like you, I think it would be better not to gloss over such information, and even less leave it out completely. But we must have sources of which everyone can say, we don't object to these sources being used for the content of the Prem Rawat article. The high-strung presentation of such data, as you proposed above, is in any case not a direction we would likely go. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Whatever merits your points have are lost in, and undercut by the obvious bias of your comments. Note the reasons people have given for not using existing anti-Rawat websites; no listed authors, intemperate tone, lack of objective evidence, etc. (There's more but I haven't had time to read those thrashes.) If you really want to advance the charges you make here, why don't you construct a fair-minded, carefully and reliably sourced presentation of them, either here on Misplaced Pages (please start in Talk) or on an outside webpage that can constitute a reliable source? Then we could move this argument forward. As it stands, if everything you say is true, then you are doing your opponents a great service by undercutting your own arguments. Msalt (talk) 18:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm removing Anons tag.Momento (talk) 00:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I am once again removing Anons tag as per ].Momento (talk) 08:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I haven't removed the tag. Let some other editor follow policy.Momento (talk) 09:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the restraint, Momento. I don't really understand the significance of these tags, so I am reluctant to remove it myself. It's pretty clear that the Anon poster doesn't have much of a case for the tag. Does anyone here think it's a good idea? How do we judge when an article deserves a tag like this? Msalt (talk) 19:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
What disappoints me is that it is clear from ] and ] that the anon editor doesn't act in good faith and yet the tag remains. If I , on the other hand, remove it, or unsourced material, Francis claims I'm a vandal.Momento (talk) 20:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I can understand your frustration. However, I think those of us who watch this page closely are in danger of losing perspective by having an accelerated clock. You know what I mean? If I check this page 5 times in a day ,and the tag is still there, it seems like it's taking forever for progress. But it's still just part of a day. I'm restraining myself on this one too because I just don't understand the significance of these tags. but I'm sure someone will come along soon enough and either remove it or explain what the standards are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Msalt (talk • contribs) 22:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Did you follow the links? According to ] "ZoeCroydon is indefinitely banned from Misplaced Pages and all edits by him, including those from IPs, are to be reverted on sight". It seems several editors are happy that anything critical of Rawat can stay even if it violates policy. Feel free to remove that tag Msalt.Momento (talk) 22:31, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
An "NPOV tag" isn't a critical comment. Judging by this talk page, there appears to be substantial disagreement over the neutrality of the article. Edit warring over POV tags is extremely bad form. Rather then worrying about the tag let's focus on settling disputes over the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:39, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Since the NPOV was inserted by 147.114.226.174 ], a known IP of ZoeCroydon, shouldn't we follow the directive and ensure that "all edits by him, including those from IPs, are to be reverted on sight". Seems clear to me. Does anyone disagree?Momento (talk) 22:59, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
If I read the page correctly, that IP is used by many users. If that's the only reason to remove the NPOV tag then consider it added by me, on account of numerous active disputes being discussed on the talk page. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:14, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I did not follow that link, Momento, and I apologize for missing it. However, unless I'm mistaken, the NPOV tag was inserted by a different IP: 216.114.82.30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=192871221&oldid=192870842). We don't know for sure that 147.114.226.174 is only ZoeCroydon: the User Talk page says it belongs to National Westminster Bank PLC in New York, and the behavior (one comment) is nothing like the modus operandi described on the "Suspected SockPuppets" page you cited. Also there is no obvious connection from 147.114.226.174 to 216.114.82.30, an IP for Palm Beach Community College.
In any case, Will Beback has seconded the NPOV tag so it doesn't really matter. Let's fix the page. Msalt (talk) 02:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, you are mistaken, the NPOV tag was added by 147.114.226.174 ] as is clear here ]. Since no one disputes that 147.114.226.174 is listed on Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of ZoeCroydon and the instructions are that "all edits by him, including those from IPs, are to be reverted on sight". I'm removing that tag in accordance with those instructions. WillBeback can put his own NPOV tag on.Momento (talk) 03:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
What is your evidence that the edit is "by him", as the page you cite requires? I gave you good reasons to think it is not, which you ignored before editing against consensus. Msalt (talk) 22:03, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

NPOV tag (section break)

I re-added the NPOV tag with this edit summary: "Re-adding NPOV tag for the EL issue, see Talk:Prem Rawat#External links section.... There's prominent criticism on Prem Rawat (as explained in Criticism section), EL's should reflect that for NPOV." --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it's time you read the BLP policy that says - Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link (see above).

Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for controversial, derogatory, or otherwise unverifiable material about a living person other than the publisher or author of the material.Momento (talk) 10:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The intrinsic value and gorgeous elegance of the stub

How about I go ahead and reduce this article to the bare minimum, strictly the bones, neither promotional nor critical. Then we can all get on with the lives we used to have. Huh? Can we? Rumiton (talk) 13:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Rumiton, in my humble opinion we have been collectively moving in that direction through a (slightly choppy but emerging) consensus. I've come in as one of several outside (uninvolved) editors to move that way, but I find it advisable to move a step at a time, explain what I'm going to do in advance wherever possible, discuss it at length and talk more after each individual move. I've written half of a novel in a week about these issues. Even so, I'm sure there are some who feel I'm moving too fast or unilaterally.
Given that you have been in the thick of these edit wars for some time and are clearly identified with one side, I humbly suggest that it would be a terrible idea for you to unilaterally rewrite the whole page with a line and a half of advance notice. I think it would destroy everything we have accomplished here lately, and lead some to think that such destruction was your aim. Msalt (talk) 18:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Msalt.
For Rumiton, there's always the possibility to follow the technique explained in Misplaced Pages:Subpages#Allowed uses, point 6 in order to present your proposed rewrite. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I really like that idea. Rumiton, I would enjoy seeing (on a separate page) a draft of what you have in mind. It may be great. but let's move a little deliberately here. Msalt (talk) 22:18, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

How about you, Momento, Jossi, Rainer P and I all go and get on with our lives and let more neutral editors do whatever they feel is best here? Now that would be the perfect solution! Hey, if you guys drop it I'll go too. That's a promise! PatW (talk) 15:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the article has lately altogether been improved in neutrality, even if it will take some more work. And I can say I am persistently learning about how to write an encyclopedic article, and I even find working role models here and there for civil manners. So, even if we might not ever reach a final agreement over the article, it is a very rewarding experience for me, and I feel a surprising growing relatedness to all you fellow editors out there, no matter under what flag. So, let's not drop it, but accept the challenge. That seems to be the life at least I wish to have. Cheerio!--Rainer P. (talk) 17:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Well Rainer, it is nice that you are having a constructive experience here, but after 12 months of this I find much more fascinating things are beckoning me. I will start work on the dramatically reduced example tomorrow. Deliberately. Rumiton (talk) 11:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear this. But then there are signs that Eds. Francis Schonken and Msalt are really motivated to improve the article, and they will probably face a lot of the load you tried to carry, after getting familiar with its unique mental environment. And remember: "Every other author may aspire to praise; the lexicographer can only hope to escape reproach." -Samuel Johnson, lexicographer (1709-1784)--Rainer P. (talk) 09:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I respect you as an opponent in argument enough not to attempt to disguise my moderate pleasure at how you appear to be retreating in defeat and attempting some sort of 'Parthian shot'. I would discourage you from wasting further time developing any personalised model for a minimal article though of course you are at liberty to do so. This article is now being shaped, as it always should have been, by the 'emerging consensus' that MSalt talks about. If you don't find this process fascinating then it may be better indeed to turn your attention to the more 'fascinating things that beckon'. I wonder what they could be? :-) PatW (talk) 12:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Speculative sentence?

I have removed the text 'According to religious historian Timothy Miller, "...he may be reaching more listeners than ever, especially abroad, but his role is that of a public speaker."' This is without meaning - we could equally have replaced it with '... he may now be reaching fewer listeners than ever...'. I personally would bet on the latter! --John Brauns (talk) 01:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

This edit says "removal of speculative sentence". But as far as I can see is sourced to an historian in a published source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Nope. You cannot do that, and spare us the sarcasm. This is disruptive and unhelpful. Please self-revert. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't doubt the sentence is well sourced - I am just saying it has no meaning or value. If Miller is saying he may be reaching more listeners he is equally implying that he may be reaching fewer listeners. Don't you agree? BTW, there was no sarcasm in my post. --John Brauns (talk) 01:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
(and for your information, he is reaching millions of people, more than ever before, through television programming in all continents. ) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:47, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, Jossi, this is disallowed as not RS. --John Brauns (talk) 01:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I would encourage to self-revert your deletion of an obviously verifiable and reliable published source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
And I would encourage you to apply a little judgement to the content of the sources and ask yourself if it adds any substance to the article. I will leave my edit and allow my peers here to judge whether it should be reverted. --John Brauns (talk) 01:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
You still have a chance to restore the deletion, and when you are at it, please correct the page number in the cite. It is page 364 and not 471. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
And also consider that you should by not be editing this article either. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Many times well-sourced claims have been removed Momenot and to a lesser extent by Rumiton (both often supported by Jossi), because Momento had labelled them as an "exceptional claim", "good editorial judgment", "minority claim", only sourced to one scholar, or sourced to multiple but biased Christian scholars. In most cases I objected to this. Let us not whimsically change the interpretation guidelines and policies as soon as the article threatens to get contents that some editors do not like. If we allow this once again, as has been allowed in the past, then article will again reflect the POV of the majority of the editors here which may diverge substantially from a NPOV article. So what is the editing principle interpreation of policy that we adapt? Let us choose one and stick to it consistentlty. Andries (talk) 15:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Why on earth shouldn't I edit this article? I have no conflict of interest. My interest on my website and my interest here is to help publicise the truth about Prem Rawat. The only difference is that on my website I can use first hand testimonies which are not allowed here.--John Brauns (talk) 11:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Answer: However, be aware that concerns about COI editing apply equally to editors who are deeply opposed to Prem and contribute to anti-Prem web sites.. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I read that and disagree with it. I have read WP:COI and I am satisfied I have no conflict of interest in editing this article. --John Brauns (talk) 19:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
So, you have more understanding of Misplaced Pages, than a respected and long time contributor to this project? Please... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm considering the fact that nobody but YOU seems to have a COI here. The rest of us all have opinions, but none of us is being paid for them. You are reportedly paid to engage in public relations activities by Mr. Rawat. As far as I can tell, nobody else is paid, either to engage in such activities or to engage in activities opposing Mr.Rawat. Momento and Rumiton obviously act as if they believe that Goom Rodgie is the Lord of The Universe and as if they believe that it is therefore vitally important to prevent anyone else from finding that out about their secret beliefs, as it might dissuade the general public from "taking Knowledge," particularly if they realized that the Guru is in the habit of referring to himself in the third person as if he were omnipotent and omniscient. Wowest (talk) 05:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm inviting Jossi again to answer the question I asked him above in #Unsupported claims and Lack of Good Faith. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
And I invite you to to take people like Wowest, PatW and all others abusing this page to account for blatant personal attacks.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Still, I suggest you answer that question. You're free to ignore whatever you think must be ignored, but I really think it would help the discussion on the external links. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
You hit me first Jossi WAAAAAAAA I want mmy MUMMYPatW (talk) 22:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Pat, not helpful. Please concentrate on article content. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about whether John Brauns is supposed to be editing here or not. I have to say that I am sympathetic to this edit. The statement does in fact seem speculative. The source appears to be verifiable, though I can't say I've looked it up, but the very words of the quote show that the author really isn't sure and is, in fact speculating. (Like all good reliable sources, the author acknowledges the limits of their knowledge.)

The bigger point is that this article in general closely narrates the career of Prem Rawat in a "horse race" manner. I am sure there are other bio articles that list an individualsetbacks or major advance for the subject here or there. But are there any other bio articles that read so much like the narration of a prize fight? "Ooh, he took quite a shot there. But wait! He's back on his feet, and the crowd is going wild!" There's a sense to me of a narrator who is rooting for the subject in the manner of a biopic. This particular line says 2 things: 1) he's more of a secular speaker than religious figure now (which has already been said, at some length, earlier in the article) and 2) that he is quite successful (which I'm not sure belongs.) Is there some general standard we can apply to distinguish statements that belong in a bio from those that are too positive (and hence imbalanced, or become cheerleading)? Msalt (talk) 06:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

  1. Misplaced Pages:Consensus;
  2. Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view;
  3. Misplaced Pages:Coatrack (this is a good one I just stumbled upon, I'm discovering it together with you) --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

To me the statement looks like somewhat in this vein: "He went by airplane <ref>This means he will probably have arrived there in less than half the time than when doing the itinerary by car, according to talk show host XYZ.</ref>", i.e. a somewhat redundant bit of information. Support John Brauns on this one. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Will all due respect I can muster, your arguments do not fly on the face of facts, and the seeming application of double standards is perplexing. An historian makes a statement about how changes on Rawat's presentation may be the reason he may be reaching more listeners than ever before, and you decide that it is speculation? And when another author, describes a speech of Rawat as banal, that is not speculation? What is going on here? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe what you need is to read the material surrounding that text in Miller's book to understand the context, and why it is a useful piece of information. I will copy the text and place here for discussion. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Here it is:

During the 1980's, Maharaj Ji began the slow dissolution of the Divine Light Mission and eventually stepped down as a "Perfect Master". He continued to appear to audiences as Maharaji, a teacher, and established a minimal organization called Elan Vital to receive contributions. He may be reaching more listeners than ever, especially abroad, but his role is that of public speaker, and his religious movement is essentially defunct. Miller, Timothy (1995). America's alternative religions. Albany, N.Y: State University of New York Press. pp. p. 374. ISBN 0-7914-2397-2. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)

Please explain why this material is not encyclopedic and not worthy of inclusion. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It was appended after this sentence:

1999 saw the commencement of regular satellite broadcasts to North America and other countries. According to religious historian Timothy Miller, "...he may be reaching more listeners than ever, especially abroad, but his role is that of a public speaker."<ref>Miller, America's Alternative Religions, pp.474</ref> (my bolding)

OR, & SYN as it happens. the "" (1995!) has no relation to the 1999 commencement of regular satellite broadcasts. So, indeed: speculation (although I didn't use the word "speculation" yet: I said "redundant bit of information"). Note that the reference doesn't include the publication date of Miller. Again the article is being made into a puzzle, while the date of publication of the quote only appears in a different section, after the footnotes.

Indeed, one can ask oneself why the most speculative sentence (the one containing the "may") was chosen from the Miller 1995 source? E.g.

  • "established a organization to receive contributions." is more affirmative, aka less speculative;
  • Why stop the quote before: ", and his religious movement is essentially defunct."? That's also more affirmative, less weasely and speculative.

I conclude some serious revamping has been going on:

  • Gave the impression Miller confirmed something Miller in 1995 didn't even allude to (1999 broadcasts);
  • The most speculative sentence of the Miller source was chosen, where less speculative sentences on other content abound.

John, good catch. Apparently I'm only starting to see how bad the 2007 rewrite of this article has been. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the full quote, Jossi. Very helpful. I have to say that the full quote left me with a pretty different impression than its use in the article did. Francis spells out why pretty thoroughly. We should be able to rewrite it all more NPOV. I remain concerned that the "more successful than ever" part amounts to cheerleading, esp. as presented.
Not everything a reliable source says is itself reliable or appropriate for the article. It's very common for both good journalism and scholarly articles to end with a speculation like "This development may prove to be the beginning of a new era in blah blah", or the current example, but I don't think those statements belong in articles, no matter how impressive the source is. Msalt (talk) 19:22, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The full quote provides the necessary context to extract a good summary that can improve the "Westernization" section. Go for it! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh man... I provided the full cite, so use it to improve the article instead of congratulating a deletion of a source that is verifiable and usable. So fix it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
That was what I was intending. It looks like a good source on the "donations", for which we were looking for a good source. Anyone objects? --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:34, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
It is a good source in the section Westernization, as it presents the transition from previously assigned religious trappings. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Given that the source claimed Rawat 'stepped down as Perfect Master', when all he did was drop the use of the word 'perfect', I would not describe him as a 'good source'. Rawat certainly never 'stepped down' from anything. --John Brauns (talk) 19:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Sure, your opinion against that of a reputable historian. You need to re-read WP:V. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, I was there, and Rawat never stepped down as 'Perfect Master'. I appreciate that my testimony cannot be used in this article, but I do have the right to comment on the reliability of other sources based on my personal knowledge. --John Brauns (talk) 20:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The sentence discussed needs to be restored based on the source provided. These are the type of edits that makes an article NPOV, not endless discussions about a name or about a heading. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:34, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jossl, thanks for your comment. Now you start complaining so much and so strongly about a well-sourced sentence being removed, but you often supported and only very rarly objected to the removal by Momenton of dozens of well-sourced sentences. I hope that you start behaving less partisan and more constructively here. Andries (talk) 16:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Andries, most talk-page discussions revolve around the subject of assessing sources, how these are used, and how these fit within the overall context of an article. In discussions we try and gauge consensus on these matters, and if no common ground is found, we seek dispute resolution. So, yes, I may have argued for exclusion or rewording of certain texts and sources, and that is within what is expected of editors. No different here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi's you use and used in your assements of sources strong double standards and hence they are not very helpful. This is one of the reasons why the article became unbalanced. Andries (talk) 16:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Look in the mirror, Andries. Yes, we all tend in some way or another to prefer some sources and dismiss others. And we there is no agreement, we pursue in good faith, the dispute resolution process. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, John's edit may be mistaken, but he was only following the reasoning often used by Momento who was often supported by you. Momento often used his personal assessments of statements to exclude it from Misplaced Pages by dismissing a reputable source as a "minority view", "exceptional claim" etc. Fact is that when Rawat spoke for the first since a long time in the Netherlands (the Hague) a few years ago there was not a single dutch newspaper that paid attention to it. It is well documented that the DLM and Maharaji in quite a lot of sources (among others Encarta) used to famous. So it will be clear that I agree with John that Miller's statement is misguided. Andries (talk) 17:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Note

On the face of the lack of action in curtailing personal attacks, malicious edits, and other behaviors, please note that my recusal from editing this article was voluntary, and that I am seriously considering resuming editing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, please would you provide evidence/citations of:

  • lack of action in curtailing personal attacks, giving examples to support your case
  • malicious edits, indicating what you think might have been malicious about them
  • other behaviors, presumably implying that any behaviors are somehow suspect

147.114.226.172 (talk) 15:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to find something positive to be said about Mr Rawat in external sources not controlled by him. Are there any. This search gives over 1000 references. I couldn't find one that was positive that wasn't published by Mr Rawat or his followers, i.e. there is no one independent out there who doesn't believe there's something a bit iffy about this guy. Why doesn't the wikipedia article reflect all that general feeling out there about Mr Rawat? At the moment wikipedia is making a laughing stock of itself as per the informer article 147.114.226.172 (talk) 16:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I was doing a Google Book Search on "Prem Rawat" and on "Maharadji" yesterday. You'd be surpised how many authors acknowledge Prem Rawat positively in the preface or intro of their book. So, no, I don't think this attitude of "generally, nothing positive on Prem Rawat is available on the web unless controlled by him" should be supported. It is speculative. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Francis, but I think we can use the word wrong, not just speculative. Your search of prefaces and intros is illustrative. A simple Google search for "Prem Rawat" gives 116 000 results. I note that about 90-95% appear positive, and the negatives clearly emanate from the same fairly small group of sites and people. No doubt none of this is directly usable by WP, but it shows that his message has been well received by many, and I hope we will find a way to acknowledge that. (I have temporarily shelved my plan to produce a trimmed back version. Maybe we can get this thing to work.) Rumiton (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 12:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The above statement by 147.114.226.172 stands out for its disingenuousness. Including the term "Evening Standard" in the search string ensures the tabloid article by the paper of the same name appears in the results. Of course the results will be negative, that's what tabloids are all about. Rumiton (talk) 13:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Frankly, the disingenuousness of the post simply led me to ignore it. But good point on the 'evening standard" search term. Anon user, if there really is so much negative material on Rawat, why not simply find the really solid ones -- top notch journalists, academics and books -- and bring them to our attention? Msalt (talk) 18:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC) 
Regarding: "You'd be surpised how many authors acknowledge Prem Rawat   
positively in the preface or intro of their book."
You misspelled "Maharaj Ji" in your post, so I hope you didn't in your 
search.  Prior to 1973, when referring to "Guru Maharaj Ji," most 
American authors meant Satuguru 108 Neem Karoli Baba Maharaj. Until the
middle of 1973, Readers Guide to Periodical Literature referred to Prem 
as "Balyogeshwar, boy guru." The "Inner Tennis," books are dedicated to
Prem. "Be Here Now" is dedicated to Neem Karoli Baba, but it just says 
"Guru Maharaj Ji." For that reason, I also think it is important to 
keep "Balyogeshwar" prominent at the top of the article. 
Wowest (talk) 06:56, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Notification

see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Article probation - proposal --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

WikiProjects are relevant

Let's take a look at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Spirituality#Scope:

This WikiProject aims to promote better coordination, content distribution, balance and cross-referencing among pages covering topics of spirituality, as well as pages on topics that can be compared or contracted with spirituality. All of these articles should be placed within the Category:Spirituality or one of its subcategories.

Most certainly relevant. Cirt (talk) 21:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Rational Skepticism is also highly relevant, due to the skepticism surrounding Rawat's claimed benefits from his secretive "Techniques of Knowledge". Cirt (talk) 21:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
If the "Skepticism" project tag is applied due to the teachings of Rawat then it would be more appropriate to add it to the teachings of Prem Rawat article. Rawat himself has little or nothing to do with skepticism that I can see. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, I have yet to find a published source that forwards any kind of skepticism surrounding Rawat's claimed benefits from his secretive "Techniques of Knowledge". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Article history

See the Article history box. There is some interesting info that has since mysteriously gone missing from this article, see versions 25 October 2006, 12 November 2006, (as of the 2 prior peer reviews), and 10 March 2007, (as of the failed GA Review, done by Vassyana (talk · contribs).) Cirt (talk) 22:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Cirt, please spare us from puzzles and riddles, what specific "missing" information do you want us to be looking at in these older versions of the article? --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I just gave it a quick glance over as I was setting up the "article history" box uptop on the talk page, and noticed a very different presentation of the criticism sect, and the info in there. I'll have to go over those older versions in more detail later to see what was censored out of them over the years. Also, there is some missing info here regarding litigation history, litigious nature of related organizations/companies, etc. Cirt (talk) 23:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Unencyclopaedic Headings

One of the unfortunate consequences of the inheritance of an overly hagiographic approach to this article is that unencyclopaedic headings have constrained the internal logic of the article. While the sources may be open to criticism I still think that User:Nik Wright2/ Rawat balanced sources offers a better overall structure.

Certainly the current Headings: Leaving India, Coming of Age, and Westernization are wholly imbalanced. The headings suggest entirely personal events in the first two cases while the third relates entirely to a claimed change in the supposed 'teaching', but throughout the material concerns Rawat’s career as a Guru and the events that affected the structure of organisations – rather in the way that a family business might be affected in other circumstances. If this article is to be balanced, NPOV and comprehensive, the various threads need to be separated out and justified on the basis of evidence. Personally I would like to start re-writing whole sections – but perhaps some of the newer editors could first take another look at User:Nik Wright2/ Rawat balanced sources and indicate what they feel is not right with that approach.

--Nik Wright2 (talk) 09:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

God, yes I see and agree totally. It's funny how familiarity with the article's general look over the years has eroded my better judgement. Looking at that heading 'Coming of Age' I see it is dripping with respect. It implies some sort of stateliness or something. I guess I just got used to it but this is essentially the sort of tone I've objected to all along. Even in my premie days I would have been embarrassed at such public pomposity. It's simply looks so out of place in an encyclopaedia. Imagine if this was an article about any other living person -The Pope? Mother Teresa? Kennedy? The Queen? Nelson Mandela? John Travolta? Do you think any of these people would be comfortable about having stages of their lives, separated out and described in such terms? I mean..Nelson Mandela....'Coming of Age'? Doesn't work for me? Can any editors here justify why Rawat deserves language which possibly only befits historic royalty? Essentially the facts about Rawat are framed in language which itself says: 'This man's whole life - from childhood on - is extremely significant'. To be honest the fact that Rawat is so plainly comfortable at being projected in such reverential terms in public strikes me as extraordinarily arrogance on his part. Who does he really think he is? Or like the song we used to sing in the 70's and the book by Charles Cameron was titled..'Who is Guru Maharaji?' This is obviously the question he thinks the world should be asking.PatW (talk) 10:59, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The headings make sense to me. The Pope's, Mandela's, Travolta's articles describe their chronology in terms of what they were doing at the time. Rawat's life can be divided into his "Chilhood" in India, "Leaving India" for the west. "Coming of Age" is a crucial turning point in Rawat's life, becoming an emancipated minor enabled him to marry and assume legal responsibility. Like wise "Westernization". Let's see what you can come up with.Momento (talk) 11:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't be too hard. Off the top of my head - 'Childhood' (1957-1974)' and 'Adulthood '1975 -Present Day' would be far more enclyclopaedic. Would prefer to see is headings that no way smack of 'momentousness' (no pun intended)PatW (talk) 11:46, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Imho, there's much to be said for the article structure proposed by Nik in User:Nik Wright2/ Rawat balanced sources. I think it's better than the current section title sequence of the Prem Rawat article.
Over-all Nik's prose would also be a major improvement (style-wise) over the often confusing prose currently in the article. Just picking a small example I think illustrative:

Despite being only 16 Prem Rawat was able to marry without his mother’s permission having achieved emancipated minor status in California and in May 1974 he married 25-year-old Marolyn Johnson, one of his American followers. (User:Nik Wright2/ Rawat balanced sources#SCHISM)

compared to

In April 1974, at the age of sixteen, Prem Rawat became an emancipated minor, and in May, married 25-year-old Marolyn Johnson, one of his American students. (Prem Rawat#Coming of age)

Nik's version indicates that becoming an "emancipated minor" was tied to the place where he lived, and imho reads more fluently than (for example): "In April 1974, and in May "
As remarks, regarding Nik's version (all of this imho):
  • Lead section less effective than current lead section of the Prem Rawat article (although also for that lead section I'm far from finished suggesting improvements);
  • We don't do section titles in capitals only, when there's no distinct reason (like for example widely understood acronym);
  • Needs wikification;
  • No EL section (but that's a separate debate).
--Francis Schonken (talk) 11:36, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I think your judgement of these sentences might be influenced by your own Muttersprache (mother tongue). In English, Nik's version has too many concepts for one sentence and so is clumsy and garbled. And telling the reader where the decree was made (California) seems unnecessary to me. As I have said before, this is not a book we are writing. We need to get rid of words that are not earning their keep in the article. BTW, Francis, your reporting of Momento on the Administrators' Noticeboard without notifying him was, I believe, a serious breach of good manners and not conducive to editorial harmony. Good work will be required to repair that damage. Rumiton (talk) 12:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Re. "I think your judgement of these sentences might be influenced by your own Muttersprache (mother tongue)" – might be (I said: imho), but my mother tongue does not contain the word "Muttersprache", FYI. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense, I am getting the feeling that the nitpickings about minutiae such as a complain about "unencyclopedic headings", or should a name be in the lead and not in a section are just nonsense, or should a sentence be re-constructed is totally unhelpful. The discourse here is deteriorating badly.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Er... You started the discussion on whether "a name be in the lead and not in a section" - I didn't even contribute to that part of the discussion above in #Balyogeshwar (I said it should be in the lead per Misplaced Pages:Lead section#Bold title, I didn't say a word on whether or not it should be in a section, which was your part of the discussion from the moment you started it). So, what you're implying is that you're deliberately trying to deteriorate the discussion here, or did I misread what you just said?
Admittedly WP:MoS issues are of secondary importance, but progress there is not to be scorned either. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Other topic

Re. "BTW, Francis, your reporting of Momento on the Administrators' Noticeboard without notifying him was, I believe, a serious breach of good manners and not conducive to editorial harmony.":
  • Please don't mix topics on this talk page;
  • Please, NPA (WP:NPA), comment on content, not on contributor.
  • If you must know, notifying Momento would have been a breach of good manners, as he had said to me: "I consider your frequent posting on my talk page to be harassment. Stop it." . I was clear about not being able to post on Momento's talk page for that reason when I listed the WP:AN discussion, so anyone uninvolved could have picked that up. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Slightly disruptive editing of Momento (talk · contribs). For clear reasons, I wanted to avoid as long as possible to discuss Momento's behaviour on multiple pages, certainly not on talk pages that should be devoted to article writing, while not the topic of these pages: WP:AN, on the other hand, is an appropriate place to ask for guidance on such things.
  • I tried to merge the topic of Momento's behaviour with other related points at WP:AN, unsuccessfully, but anyway notified about such discussions at WP:AN via this talk page (#Notification), the moment an admin had suggested it would be best to notify. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Many here have requested that someone who knows the system better do something to officially reflect our objections to Momento's disruptiveness. I unreservedly support his action. And..maybe you premies might want to do what would really good mannered for once (since your contrived versions of this article have come under public criticism) and just sit back, relax, watch and learn what a comparatively unbiased editor makes of all this. I'm fascinated to see.. aren't you?PatW (talk) 13:43, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

There are no "comparatively unbiased" editors here, if this were a trial, no neutral jurors could be found. Your shameless exercise in guilt by association and other red herring type behaviours have seen to that, and now we have to live with it. We have no choice now but to keep contesting. Same old same-old. Rumiton (talk) 14:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Ruminton...Yes, of course no one's neutral but that's ok. And it's not what I said. What I meant was that there are distinctly 'comparatively un-biased editors' here now. A very helpful third category of person if you will- who are very useful in mediating this debate. In fact you might want to loosely look upon them as a jury in this contest. Ie. People who are neither 'followers' or 'ex-followers' of Prem Rawat. It's not rocket science. Also, I maintain that you are mistakenly reading 'guilt by association' into my having argued above (apparently successfully) that there were actual comparisons with the People's Temple and Rawat's power structures, in that both cases practised some top-level secrecy and beliefs in the divine authority of the leader. I denied your accusations already. I welcome you questioning my conscience because it's clear and I feel no shame thanks. You are absolutely correct that this article is contested. You simply seem to be in a sulk that you, Jossi and Momento are losing the almost total editorial control you're used to and which was widely perceived as inappropriate.PatW (talk) 14:56, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I claim "comparatively unbiased", for reasons I explained elsewhere. I recommend to avoid the use of the word premie, when referring to other editors, while not helpful. I'm not calling anyone here a premature birth either, am I? --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
No Francis, that does not fly on the face of evidence. Compare your treatment of some editors here, and your treatment of others. Rather than come here and help mediate a difficult situation, you have chosen to take sides in the dispute and that is too bad. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, sure, anyone who doesn't agree with you on the spot on each and every point is in an opposing camp. This divisive attitude won't fly. Rumiton's approach has much more nuance, e.g. "Francis, I have seen some encouraging signs of neutrality from you." --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Er..Francis...I should maybe tell you that Rawat's followers are proud to be called 'Premies'. It is not a derogatory term. I couldn't use it as such if I wanted which I don't. PatW (talk) 14:56, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Still, not useful imho. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:22, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
PatW, for a person that has abused this page, you have some chutzpah to come here and speak of disruption of others.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, unhappily for you I've got the nerve to call a spade a spade and I've had quite enough of the arrogance, barbed comments and plain disdain towards ex-followers (and others) that has been dished out here over the years. I'd like to point out that your apparent COI, rule book-waving and Momento's long-term walking over people's edits is actually at the root of the mistrust and rude outbursts that happen here. I fully admit to occasionally chastising people in a cross manner. You should thank me for losing it sometimes...it gives you authoritarian types something substantial to jump up and down about. Let's make no mistake the baiting cuts both ways. And by the way, I am laughing that you think Francis is taking sides. That to me just shows how deeply cultified your thinking has become. No offense.PatW (talk) 17:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I chose not to respond, Pat. Not until you stop making such comments, and commit to not doing it again.. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
  1. Schnabel, Tussen stigma en charisma ("Between stigma and charisma"), 1982. Ch. IV, p. 99:
      de intellectueel weinig opmerkelijke Maharaj Ji.   the intellectually quite unremarkable Maharaj Ji.
  2. Cite error: The named reference Kent2001 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ "Guru Tries to Take Control of Mission" in The Ruston Daily Leader, April 9, 1975
  4. ^ Hunt, Stephen J. Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction (2003), pp.116-7, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 0-7546-3410-8"
  5. Brown, Chip, Parents Versus Cult: Frustration, Kidnapping, Tears; Who Became Kidnappers to Rescue Daughter From Her Guru, The Washington Post, February 15, 1982
    "Suddenly there were new reports from people who'd actually managed the Divine Light Mission—Robert Mishler, the man who organized the business side of the mission and served for 5 1/2 years as its president, and Robert Hand Jr., who served as a vice president for two years. In the aftermath of Jonestown, Mishler and Hand felt compelled to warn of similarities between Guru Maharaj Ji and Jim Jones. They claimed the potential for another Jonestown existed in the Divine Light Mission because the most fanatic followers of Maharaj Ji would not question even the craziest commands. As Jim Jones convincingly demonstrated, the health of a cult group can depend on the stability of the leader.
    Mishler and Hand revealed aspects of life inside the mission that frightened the Deitzes. In addition to his ulcer, the Perfect Master who held the secret to peace and spiritual happiness 'had tremendous problems of anxiety which he combatted with alcohol,' Mishler said in a Denver radio interview in February 1979."
  6. Melton, J. Gordon. Encyclopedic Handbook pp.144-5 "However as the group withdrew from the public eye, little controversy followed it except the accusations of Robert Mishner , the former president of the Mission who left in 1977. Mishner complained that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill and that money was increasingly diverted to Maharaj Ji's personal use. Mishner's charges found little support and have not affected the progress of the Mission."
  7. Time Magazine, 2 November, 1972. Junior Guru"
  8. Time Magazine, April 28, 1975. One Lord Too Many.
  9. Kranenborg, Reender. (1982) Oosterse Geloofsbewegingen in het Westen/Eastern faith movements in the West (Dutch language) ISBN 90-210-4965-1
  10. Levine, Saul V. "Life in Cults". Cults and New Religious Movements: A Report of the American Psychiatric Association (From the Committee on Psychiatry and Religion). Ed. Marc Galanter. Pg 102. American Psychiatric Pub, Inc (1999). ISBN 0890422125.
  11. Levine, Saul V. "Life in Cults". Cults and New Religious Movements: A Report of the American Psychiatric Association (From the Committee on Psychiatry and Religion). Ed. Marc Galanter. Pg 100. American Psychiatric Pub, Inc (1999). ISBN 0890422125.
  12. Melton, J. Gordon. Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in Americapp 141-145
  13. "NAM Frequently Asked Questions". Retrieved 2008-02-11.
  14. "About Prem Rawat". Retrieved 2008-02-11.
  15. Palmer & Keller, Religions of the World, pp.95.
  16. Melton, J. Gordon. Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America. pp.14. Entry: Divine Light Mission
  17. The "Sant" term is derived from the Sanskrit sat (सद) (truth, reality) has overlapping usages, its root meaning being "one who knows the truth" or "one who has experienced Ultimate Reality". It differs from the false cognate "Saint" as it is often translated. The term Sant has taken on the more general ethical meaning of "good person", but is assigned specifically to the poet-sants of medieval India. Schomer, Karine, The Sant Tradition in Perspective, in Sant Mat: Studies in a Devotional Tradition of India in Schomer K. and McLeod W.H. (Eds.), pp.22-3, ISBN 0-9612208-0-5 According to Rigopoulos, (page 404) the word Sant is generally used for the bhakti saint poets of the Marathi and Hindi speaking areas.
  18. Sanskrit: बालयोगेश्वर = child master of yogis
  19. Cite error: The named reference Mangalwadi was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  20. Cagan, A. Peace is Possible: The Life and Message of Prem Rawat. Mighty River Press -ISBN -10: 0-9788694-9-4
  21. Hadden, Religions of the World, pp.428"The meditation techniques the Maharaji teaches today are the same he learned from his father, Hans Ji Maharaj, who, in turn, learned them from his spiritual teacher ." 'Knowledge', claims Maharaji, 'is a way to be able to take all your senses that have been going outside all your life, turn them around and put them inside to feel and to actually experience you...'
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