User talk:Mackan79 - Misplaced Pages

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Mistaken page

Been deleted, no problem. speedy criterion G7 covers that one, a mistakenly created page that the author requests deletion of. You can place {{db-author}} on those too, or of course I'm happy to help. Seraphimblade 04:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

69.67.230.109

But isn't it? Abortion is murder, no matter what Misplaced Pages says. --69.67.230.109 03:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

List

Mackan,

I was hoping that the list could be collaborative, and created by multiple parties. There are other posters who know more about certain controversies than myself, and vice versa. CJCurrie 22:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Your note

Hi Mackan, I understand your points. I do think that the current 'protected' template, as I noted in the Talk page, clearly tells the readers that there is a dispute among editors, that the version is locked, and that the locking does not necessarily endorse the locked version. I find that a very reasonable top-level description of the status quo. Any interested reader can then go to the Talk page with one click and read further details there. Although I strongly believe that we must unlock the entry ASAP, we don't want to descend immediately into renewed edit wars, which will just get us back to where we are now, so it seems logical to insist on mediation. I hope you all can move that process along ASAP. Crum375 15:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Allegations of Israeli apartheid

What do you think of incorporating the newest allegations and info, the 7 new items on the Discussion page?Kritt 06:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know about the article. I will read it as soon as I can --Aminz 01:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't your vote more accurately be described as rename or move?--Urthogie 21:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I feel like dialogue gets nowhere with you right now. You don't even highlight a single correct argument that I make. If you want to report me for 3RR, go ahead-- you'll just be keeping a falsehood on the page 24 hours. If you want to actually see that G-Dett objectively misread Adam and Moodley, I would highly advise that.--Urthogie 17:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I've suggested a compromise on the talk page. Please remove the report?--Urthogie 19:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The compromise has nothing to do with the 3rr, which as you said is relatively inconsequential to me. It has to do with my observation on reflection that Adam and Moodley are dealing with position on Israel as an apartheid state, not all the types of accusation.--Urthogie 20:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mackan

With so many different "allegations"-related deletion votes going on, it occurred to me that you might have missed this one: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of apartheid (third nomination).

Nice work on NAS. All best, --G-Dett 14:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Breyer

Your GA nomination of Stephen Breyer

The article Stephen Breyer you nominated as a good article has passed , see Talk:Stephen Breyer for eventual comments about the article. Good luck in future nominations. I have left some comments as to how to further improve the article on Talk:Stephen Breyer. Please feel free to message me if you have any queries. LordHarris 01:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Zeq-Zero0000

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Zeq-Zero0000. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Zeq-Zero0000/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Zeq-Zero0000/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, David Mestel 19:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

ok but

can we clarify what place the allegations would find in this article?--Urthogie 22:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

my fear is that i'll just end up creating another frankstein monster. what if that thing explodes into israel criticism and israeli apartheid article is kept?? it seems like a pure rename is best because it would attract a lot more neutral and mainstream editors. it's hard to go on faith alone because editors like Kritt aren't so open minded as yourself in this regard.--Urthogie 22:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Why does it need to be done in your user space? The way I see it this is a list made by editors to be as long as possible to make Israel look as bad as possible. Why don't you support me on the actual talk page in pointing out that assistant professors should be removed immediately from the article, as their views are not significant enough?--Urthogie 15:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I think that the sources that list people that aren't especially notable should be turned into source lists, like a list of israeli academics, or a list of MP's, etc. Because these people are notable when taken as a group. This sound like a good way to start the talk page version?--Urthogie 15:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey Mackan79

Please take a quick glance at the edit history pages for Allegations of Saudi Arabian apartheid and Allegations of Brazilian apartheid and review the history of Hafrada (Separation) and it's older version Hafrada. Something to consider in light of the discussions surrounding Allegations of Israeli apartheid. I have tried very hard to WP:AGF, but IMO there are a couple of editors who have gone too far. Tiamut 15:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

User about to banned

I wonder if you might take a look at this Mackan. Whatever one may think of this user's edits, it seems to me he's being railroaded here.--G-Dett 18:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

red link = good

I'd like to hear the case for why these red links shouldn't be there. Generally, red links are supposed to be on templates if applicable.--Urthogie 16:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

v t e Fitchburg Railroad branches
Boston–Fitchburg	Watertown Marlboro Greenville Milford
Fitchburg–Greenfield	Vermont and Massachusetts Railroad: Ashburnham Cheshire Peterboro Boston, Barre and Gardner Turners Falls
Greenfield-Troy	Southern Vermont Troy and Boston Bennington Greenfield Boston, Hoosac Tunnel and Western Railway: Saratoga Springs/Schuylerville
Temporary branches	Harvard Lexington

you might want to argue your other points --Urthogie 16:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so are you saying if I demonstrate without a doubt that those allegations are article-worthy, we can keep them as red links until I or someone else writes them? If so, let's start with the US. Entire books have been written on the US "economic apartheid" of the poor and specifically blacks, an allegation which is accepted as basic fact by many. Unlike "Israeli apartheid", it actually relates to race, and blacks are actually part of the country, rather than Palestinians in the West Bank who aren't actually Israelis. (of course, Guantanmo is also compared to apartheid frequently as well, if anything an example of how irrationally the term is thrown around) Agree?--Urthogie 17:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

So, please specify what the problem is then with adding a red link for US allegations of apartheid?--Urthogie 17:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

'Your article is on a contentious and disputed issue.' You've cut right to the heart of the matter. There is no actual policy objection to the red links, only "its ugly" (subjective) and "its contentious." Applying occam's razor here would lead me to believe the non-policy objections result only from opinions about allegations.--Urthogie 18:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Palestine

WikiProject Palestine is looking for editors to help build and maintain comprehensive, informative, balanced articles related to Palestine on Misplaced Pages. Start by adding your name to the list of members at WikiProject Palestine. Ahlan wa Sahlan! (Welcome!)

--Ian Pitchford 19:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Harris

First off, you seem to forget that we are advised to be bold. Second, if you object to certain changes, feel free to bring them up on the talk page where a discussion has already been taking place before I made any edits. Thanks VanTucky 17:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Separation of Church and State - Theocracy

Hi Mackan -- the sentence which you say is at issue would seem to rule out the Vatican as well as Israel: "The opposite end of the spectrum from separation is a theocracy, in which the state is founded upon the institution of religion, and the rule of law is based on the dictates of a religious court." The law in the Vatican state with regard to civil secular matters parallels that of Italy. Under the Lateran treaty, crimes are not handled by the "dictates of a religious court" but are prosecuted by Italy in Italian secular courts. Both states are "founded upon the institution of religion" and have citizenship laws which give unique privilege to religious adherents. I'll agree that Israel should be deleted on this basis if the Vatican City is deleted on the same basis. Neither is a traditional theocracy, but both have a unique and essential tie to a religion. Mamalujo 18:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Joseph Priestley

Thank you for your efforts to tighten up the prose on Joseph Priestley; they are, by and large, effective. I hesitate to say this, but I wonder if it is the best use of your wikipedia time to copy edit this article at this time. Much is going to have to be removed from this article and whole sections are going to be reworded since it is too long, so I am not sure that this is the moment to go over the language with a fine-toothed comb, looking for superfluous words or slightly awkward phrasings. You are welcome to do so - I just wanted to make you aware of the ongoing editing and the possibility that whole sections you have carefully corrected may be deleted or radically revised in the near future. Awadewit | talk 05:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

If you want to help me out with The Age of Reason, I would greatly appreciate it as there are currently no other editors working on the page. I have thrown all of the information up that I think I am going to want in the article, but some of it needs to be slightly rearranged and the sentences need to be refined. I am trying to prepare it for a peer review and FAC. Just a thought. Awadewit | talk 09:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Islam: What the West Needs to Know

Could you please review a controversy currently brewing at this page? CJCurrie 02:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice work

		The Editor's Barnstar
		For boldly disentangling Fundamentalism and Fundamentalist Christianity. Groupthink 20:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

the AFD

its customary to comment on users who create accounts for the sole purpose of adding to an AFD.--Urthogie 15:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

sure thing. thanks, --Urthogie 15:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd like my comment there.--Urthogie 15:39, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey, a huge chunk of the discussion just disappeared after your last edit. I don't know how to revert it and still preserve all the posts... Can you unscrew this, please? Thx ;-) --Targeman 15:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Oops, my bad, didn't notice :-) --Targeman 15:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mackan, can you do it? I'm not absolutely sure what you're referring to, and I'm running out the door... whereever you think it should go is fine with me.--G-Dett 18:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Please comment

This is a message for all regulars at the “apartheid” AfD series. I believe there may have been a breakthrough. Please share your thoughts here. Thanks. --Targeman 03:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Kudos...

... for your valiant attempt to cleanup the Cult article that has suffered from bias, lack of sources and other maladies for long enough. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Template for Discrimination Project

Greetings about the Template for Discrimination Project. I'm leaving a note for you and other recent editors so the back and forth editing of the Discrimination template will cease and those interested can dialog about the need to include or not include an article. Please use Template talk:Discrimination and start a new section "Include _____ ?" so that others can also help keep the discussion constructive. thank you. Benjiboi 17:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Oops !

I'm truly sorry about this one : ! I mixed up the links, editing in the same time the oldids on my userpage to keep track of the last diff of each article i already read. Sorry again. NicDumZ ~ 14:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Allegations of Chinese apartheid AfD

Following your recent participation in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of French apartheid, you may be interested to know that a related article, Allegations of Chinese apartheid, is currently being discussed on AfD. Comments can be left at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Chinese apartheid. -- ChrisO 15:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,Newyorkbrad 18:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Allegations of apartheid template

As you've edited the tempate itself I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the TFD discussion at Misplaced Pages:Templates_for_deletion#Template:Allegations_of_apartheid? Lothar of the Hill People 21:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Your email

Hey, sorry I did not respond earlier. Been very busy in RL, and wrapped up in the AoIa Rfar thing. I'd like to continue this discussion with you, time permitting, but would prefer to do it on-wiki, unless you have thoughts that are really so private you don't want them shared, which I guess I can understand. For my part, I think I can speak about this issue perhaps more generally, as my earlier approach seems to have annoyed you (though I assure you that was not at all what I intended). IronDuke 04:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm officially baffled now. First, you question why it is I want to continue the discussion; in fact, I was responding to your email, where you indicate just such a desire. If you don't want to continue it, that's A-OK with me. If you feel matters are too sensitive to be discussed on-wiki, maybe you can say more about that. I don't see why you are insulted by the notion that you might have private thoughts not suitable for WP; I think most editors here do have such thoughts/opinions. And since you asked to have this discussion off-wiki, I can't see how I could reach any other conclusion than there are issues you want to keep private. Just really baffled why this insults you.

When I said I thought you were annoyed, it was because you removed my comments. I interpreted that as annoyance--perhaps I was wrong. Your email to me was fine, although I would argued you showed some annoyance there, too, not that there is a thing in the world wrong with that. If you are annoyed with me, I'd much rather you express it (in a nice way) than pretend you aren't.

I'm just at a bit of a loss as to why you feel antagonized; it's starting to feel like a deliberate misreading of what I'm trying to do here. I don't "need" to continue this discussion, but I'm happy to if you feel there are unresolved issues. IronDuke 18:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Allegations of apartheid

Please see Talk:Allegations_of_apartheid#Propose_move_to_.22Apartheid_analogies.22. Lothar of the Hill People 21:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Discrimination against atheists

Hi I see you reverted the last edit on Discrimination against atheists where you removed the word "other". You cited the word "other" being in violation of NPOV policies and I just wanted to know your rationale for that. The article originally had the word "other" in it, which was subsequently removed, and I changed that back. Thank you. Obac88667 22:56, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Breyer

I am conducting reviews of Law articles listed as Good as a part of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. A week ago I put Stephen Breyer article on hold, but have not received any answer. I don't realy want to delist this article, so could you address those issues? (see Talk:Stephen Breyer#GA Sweeps (on hold)) Ruslik 10:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Your evidence

Regarding your evidence, I blocked WB because he posted to Gary Weiss that Weiss was editing as MM on Misplaced Pages, plus some other potentially defamatory material that was only partly sourced. The edit was deleted, which is why you can't find it. I blocked the account, told him I would unblock if he would assure me he wouldn't post it again, to which he responded by posting it again. Therefore, the block stood. The block had nothing to do with claims about sockpuppets or vandalism. SlimVirgin 20:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by him having promised not to post again. He made an edit that was a serious violation of BLP and harassment. He was blocked for it. You can't see that edit because it was admin-deleted. He was then told on his talk page that he would be unblocked if he agreed not to post it again. He responded by re-posting part of it. You can't see that edit either because it's also been admin-deleted. Because he did that, the block remained. Had he not done that, and had he given some kind of assurance (such as "I'm sorry, I'm new, I didn't realize"), he'd have been unblocked. SlimVirgin 20:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

You wrote: "As I said, for him to repeat the allegation at that point, when you also asked for an explanation of his edits, does not seem to me surprising, or evidence of bad faith."

I must not be making myself clear. He posted "A is B" (among other things). It was deleted as a violation of two policies, and he was blocked. He was told "You must not post A is B. If you agree not to do that, you will be unblocked." His response was "A is B." If that's not acting in bad faith, I don't know what is. SlimVirgin 21:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

your note

The linked material is an attack on a living person, GW, unsupported by reliable sources. In addition, the linked material includes an outing attempt of a Wikipedian. Both violate BLP and must be removed by anyone, per:

Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Misplaced Pages:No original research). The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Content may be re-inserted only if it conforms to this policy. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Misplaced Pages, including user and talk pages. Administrators may enforce the removal of such material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked. See the blocking policy and Misplaced Pages:Libel.

Crum375 (talk) 18:00, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not taking any sides, and don't think that two wrongs make a right. If you see any unsourced derogatory BLP material, you may remove it. And the whole point of WP:BLP, which I quoted above is that we don't wait for someone else to do it — each WP editor is empowered to remove the improper BLP material. Crum375 (talk) 18:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I did not remove "links to a BLP violation", since as you correctly note our BLP rules don't apply outside WP. I removed material that is BLP violation in itself, and consists of a link to unsourced derogatory information about a living person. Crum375 (talk) 19:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Response

Mackan79 - I responded to you on my page. Should I also here? If so, my answer was, your point is taken and respected. I am just learning my way around here and will in the future check on such matters before posting. Best, PatrickPatrickByrne (talk) 01:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Deleted edits

No, there is not. It's almost certainly been oversighted. —Random832 04:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, the article has no deleted edits visible to administrators. —Random832 04:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That link has a timestamp of 22:28, as can be seen in the url itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Undelete
&target=User_talk:WordBomb&timestamp=20060707222852&diff=prev . —Random832 22:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Neve Gordon

Following apparently libellous attacks on this article, you removed all reference to Neve Gordon's libel action against Steven Plaut. This removes the main part of the article. I have restored my edit from this morning, which removed the libels and distortions inserted by apparent sockpuppets of User:Truthprofessor, and relied on an objective NPOV report in The Chronicle of Higher Education, rtaher than on the smears and lies of FrontPage Magazine. I hope you will agree that this is better than leaving the article almost empty, and without reference to this important issue. It is likely that Truthprofessor will try again to repeat his libels of Gordon in this article, so best keep a watch on it! Thanks RolandR (talk) 17:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you about the Dershowitz comment; but it might be difficult to justify removing it altogether. I removed a long quote, allegedly by Plaut, which wasn't in the source cited. I have no doubt that this is his view, but it can't possibly be inserted without a source. And, since the appeals court has confirmed his conviction for libel against Gordon, it would be extremely foolish of us to include this even if sourced correctly.

Look at the background to this, including Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Zuminous, Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Zuminous, and Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Truthprofessor. These are clearly the same person as User:Jenkinsimon and User:Borisyy, and I believe them to be Plaut himself. Jenkinsimon's edits to Talk:Steven Plaut, in which he posted libellous comments about a third party in his attack, resemble also the MO of the notorious Runtshit sockpuppeteer. We have to keep an eye on all of this. RolandR (talk) 19:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

And, for further evidence, compare this edit by Jenkinsimon to your talk page just now, with this one, by a Runtshit sockpuppet to User talk:ST47 in December 2006. RolandR (talk) 19:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure an RFCU would help, as this vandal seems to be an expert at using proxy and anonymising services, which leave no trace. RolandR (talk) 20:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Block

George, the lack of thought here is somewhat striking. I can only assume you think I was referencing an email that WordBomb sent you in my earlier comment. If so, please look for an email I sent you on December 7, 2007 which began:

I haven't seen you so much on Wiki, but generally appreciate your thoughts on the mailing list, so you may be a good person to ask about this, if you don't mind. What I'm wondering: I've followed the whole Bagley situation somewhat closely, and have seen most of the allegations against him. In terms of "dangerous stalking and harassment," however, I'm frankly not sure what you refer to.

If the issue is something else, please let me know. Mackan79 (talk) 05:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, I sent this to george(dot)herbert(AT)gmail(dot)com, which I presumably took from the mailing list. I can produce the rest if necessary. I have seen WordBomb say as well that he asked you the same thing, which is why I imagine it is what you are considering. Mackan79 (talk) 06:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The exact tone of your comment here matches several emails I recieved from Judd and goes far beyond what you mentioned on Dec 7, though I can confirm receiving the email.

If you want to post the email here, feel free. I will post it to ANI if you give me permission and let others review. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Mackan, keep the faith. This will only be temporarily. GWH, this is a horrible block, considering your DUCKness elsewhere. You had BETTER undo this block, and quickly, with an apology. SirFozzie (talk) 06:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a little amusing; I reread my comment and heard the tone of another user that I've sometimes been in conflict with. In any case, I'd hope you'd know it's not the first time I've questioned your and other editors' comments about Bagley.

If you've received the email, then I'm not sure there's a need to reproduce it.

For the record, the two edits you site on AN/I are obviously mine. They refer to the section immediately above that I had created to highlight a section in evidence that I added. The section is titled "Editing content."

In any case, you should realize based on the email that this is a mistake. Please reconsider. Mackan79 (talk) 06:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi GWB, please tell me you're not blocking on "tone" --and there is in fact an email from Mackan79? R. Baley (talk) 06:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Disagree with this block. You need better evidence, George. Bstone (talk) 06:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Again - do I have your permission to post the email? Your comment I diff'ed from earlier tonight matches Bagley emails to me, and not your email to me from December. I am happy to put the email in evidence on ANI, or you can here and I'll confirm if it's what I received. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The relevant portion of my email follows:

That said, I'm wondering if you can clue me in to what kind of things you're talking about here. Do you refer to public information or private? I'll say honestly my suspicion is that people have said this so much others repeat it without specific evidence, and moreover that Misplaced Pages could really be doing a much better job of acting as mediator in this dispute than fighting fire with fire (as huge a step from the current situation as that would be). But considering it's always possible there's information I lack, you might be a good person to ask.

I didn't receive a response. Since then I've criticized GWH's comments on Bagley in what I consider strong terms at least twice on the evidence page. Please do not post my email. Mackan79 (talk) 06:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

My criticism of GWH's comments can be seen in the section here. A couple sections above you'll see a similar discussion I had with JzG. With all due respect, this discussion should be completed. Mackan79 (talk) 06:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I can confirm that section appears to be the fourth paragraph of an email I received on Dec 7.

I didn't respond in email, I believe I have addressed the issue on-wiki.

I still would like your permission to post the rest of the email, with the header / address info stripped. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Why on earth would we need to post my email? The basis for this is an obvious mistake, that you didn't think I sent you an email. Now you're wanting to post the email that I sent you. If you'd like to establish that my email was polite, that is absolutely true. Per above, I have since then become more frustrated with your lack of response and continued comments. Please acknowledge your mistake so that we can end this. I'd be happy to address any concerns you have under more appropriate circumstances. Mackan79 (talk) 06:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The basis for the block was that you posted on AN a comment that rather closely matches comments Bagley has made to me in email. Even with your earlier email, your comment still closely matches Bagley's emails, and doesn't match your email on the whole. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there information that you believe is relevant in the rest of the email, George? daveh4h 06:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, in context with Bagley emails, and the on-wiki comment, the comment resembled the Bagley emails and not the earlier email. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Unblocked per Viridae 06:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Viridae. To clarify, I'm absolutely not Bagley, and it is absurd. The history of my involvement in this dispute is offered on the evidence page, including specifically why I am concerned about some of the rhetoric that has been leveled at Bagley. This is a mistake based on an email that GWH apparently forgot that I sent him, or did not see. That's fine; the fact that he would block me without comment is less so, but perhaps can be discussed politely, hopefully beginning with GWH recognizing an obvious mistake. Mackan79 (talk) 06:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Support

I hope you're not as angry as I was when I was first indef. blocked out of the blue - but regardless, I wanted to offer a note of support, and I hope it's sorted out very quickly. You should never have been blocked. Privatemusings (talk) 06:35, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Same here, Mackan. Don't let this foolish move by someone sour you on this place. SirFozzie (talk) 06:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Also voice my support. Sorry you had to go through the hassle. The block was without any merit. Bstone (talk) 06:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations, you aren't a cockpuppet

Hope you at least get a laugh out of this permanent typo on your record. :) Lawrence § t/e 06:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry :( Explanation: User_talk:Viridae#Cockpuppet Viridae 06:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

There used to be a cockpuppet article. damn deletionists...Now I'll wonder my way through life, never knowing what a cockpuppet is. >:( daveh4h 06:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I just found out, if anyone is curious: So you're definitely not a cockpuppet. Anyways, enough sillyness. Glad to see you unblocked, Mackan. daveh4h 07:01, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks all very much for the comments. I'm hoping to hear further about whatever people are looking at. I find it rather surprising that someone would block based on something that could so easily be checked and verified (whether or not I sent an email), but perhaps my thoughts aren't impartial. I'm hoping I'll hear further if there is anything more happening on this. Mackan79 (talk) 07:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous block, I asked George a few questions on his talk page, as have others. He needs to explain himself, though I think the basic explanation is that he screwed up big time (but not in a peaceful fashion, unfortunately).--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 10:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

As you are probably aware, Alison has posted a confirmation that you are not Judd Bagley on George's talk page. I have posted a confirmation on AN/I, as I believe that you are entitled to have a formal notation recorded now, without waiting any longer for George to see Alison's post. Like Bigtimepeace, I believe that George has made a huge mistake - and one that calls his judgment into serious question; hopefully no further damage will befall you as the fall out from the ArbCom case and from George's actions continue. Amazing that all this has happened and the case still hasn't closed! I'd love to know what email discussion is occurring on the ArbCom list at the moment. :) Best, Jay*Jay (talk) 10:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Given the absoloute proof provided that you are not a sockpuppet, I did a bit of IAR and noted it in your block log with a one second block. Not a practice I usually encourage, but allegations of sockpuppetry are quite a stain and you are quite clearly innocent of them. Hope you feel better in the morning, the community is clearly on your side. Viridae 10:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The one-second block is, incidentally, the only block this user has had to serve out for its entire term, without it being ended early! :-) *Dan T.* (talk) 22:11, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I'd been waiting for someone to notice that :) I imagine they were more tired of talking about it than anything else, but I'll take the credit... Mackan79 (talk) 22:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again for the further comments from everyone. I won't have time to look at this again until a bit later in the day. I am interested, if slightly dubious, in any coming explanation for having blocked me as a sock of a very controversial user, apparently after a negative checkuser result, as a heavily invovled editor, and without thinking to raise the issue first. I won't catalogue the various other problems here to see if maybe GWH recognizes them himself, although I will suggest it might have helped to have looked and seen that I started editing before WordBomb registered (and as any CU should be able to verify even then from a static IP very far from Utah). So be it, I'll have to see what GWH says. Mackan79 (talk) 14:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Mackan79

I've been off Misplaced Pages since yesterday and only now became aware of GWH's inane block. If I'd been on when it happened I'd have insisted I be blocked as well. You may be too peeved at the moment to be thinking about silver linings, but...this total breakdown of common sense may bring needed attention to unaddressed issues in the Weiss-Bagley affair, including the problems of systemic bias and Wordbomb hysteria among incompetent admins.--G-Dett (talk) 16:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

You showed great coolness under fire. Welcome back. I hope you get every explanation you're looking for. Noroton (talk) 19:11, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

You may be interested in my comment to Jay*Jay on my talk. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back Mackan79, if there is a silver lining, it is that the double standard has been thrust into the face of every observer to this whole thing. R. Baley (talk) 19:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

My apologies

I've gotten assurances from arbcom members and checkusers that they have investigated this and are fully unambiguously certain that you aren't Bagley. They can't show me the detailed evidence, as I am not a checkuser, but they have described the type and extent of checks, and based on those descriptions I believe their conclusions.

I want to apologize to you for having misinterpreted the situation last night. I don't know for sure the degree to which it was your presumably inadvertently and unawarely using some language Bagley did elsewhere, or my oversensitivity in this case. But I believe I was in error, and I owe you an apology for the block and fuss. I'm sorry, I goofed. I would note this as a mistake and record the apology in your block log if I could do so conveniently.

As I stated last night, I really don't want to affect anyone's participation in the MM debates and didn't intend that effect from the block. Had I not concluded mistakenly that you were Judd, I would have never bothered you about any of your actions or discussion. To the extent that this all interfered in that legitimate debate, I apologize again.

I was off in meetings all morning and I'm just finished up with email - I have no idea what else has been discussed where regarding this, in terms of catching up from last night, but I felt that it was most appropriate to come directly here and apologize to you first, and follow up elsewhere later. I will note my mistake and an apology on my talk page and on ANI as well.

I would like to additionally thank you for remaining civil and calm through the stress that my mistake dropped on you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I think it was actually mostly that you didn't realize I had emailed you when in fact I had (I saw Random832 said this somewhere else, so please don't think I'm them ;) ). That may have been lost in trying to straighten it out. All the same, if I may say, I would seriously hope you reconsider blocking someone based on a personal hunch, particuarly someone you're in disagreement with, someone's who's been editing close to two years, and without even asking ("what email?"). That seems all to have been somewhat of a mad spree, which I don't fully understand. The stranger thing was that you were then very sensitive about another "involved" editor unblocking me... I'm willing to accept this as a mistake, but I do hope you'll be more cautious in areas where you're involved. Thanks in any case for the apology and explanation, as well as the tone, which I appreciate. Mackan79 (talk) 23:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Very gracious, Mackan. I'm not sure I would have been as accepting in you place - perhaps it is the tone of the apology that irks me ("presumably inadvertently") or the unjustified righteousness after the block was overturned or the failure to recognise that the conclusion reached was a fairly large exercise in bad faith (and that is the word GWH used - conclusion, not suspicion - and the block log notation reflects this as well) or even the contrary evidence based on your registration on-wiki. Anyway, you have decided to accept this apology, and I wanted you to know that you have emerged from this incident with dignity intact and having impressed other editors. Best, Jay*Jay (talk) 18:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Name fix

Hi Mackan, thanks for fixing my comment on George's talk page - obviously I did mean you and not MM. It's a pity that "Mackan" and "Mantan" are so similar. Perhaps we could deal with that by calling you "the Mack" and Mantan "the Man" since those are a bit more distinct and can both be considered complementary nicknames. :) Anyhow, thanks for the correction!--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Special Barnstar
		For dealing with unfair treatment in a graceful, dignified manner. Dan T. (talk) 22:54, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks

I notice that you appear to be using Misplaced Pages to engage in baseless and rather wild attacks on SlimVirgin. Please stop. For genuine and well founded concerns about serious misconduct, please follow the dispute resolution procedure and avoid making personal attacks. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 15:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

As I understand, raising the issue on someone's talk page would be an appropriate first step. I'm currently considering whether there are ways to address the situation while minimizing the level of drama involved. To be clear, my longstanding concern has specifically been how much and the nature of the way these two accounts have worked together, and it is something that I have raised with ArbCom. Following the recent block issued by GWH, an arbitrator had suggested that I may be able to have the blocklog expunged, but SV then arrived to say that this shouldn't happen because I had been wikistalking her for much of two years and had tried to have her "investigated" by the Committee. As such, I have spoken again to correct this, and to ask her whether the issue that I raised with the Committee is one she would discuss. There is no easy way to deal with any of this, and I'd like to be clear I'm not interested in making a scene, but I think that is where it stands. Mackan79 (talk) 15:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Raising appropriate concerns is fine. Raising ridiculous and half-baked accusations is not, and when especially baseless it begins to look like an attempt at a smear. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 17:41, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's ridiculous that the two accounts have acted inappropriately together. It's also not something I would have raised yesterday, except that SV did herself. I responded, and I'm trying to hold back that discussion, although in the end I do think it is another situation where various baggage has inhibited standard dispute resolution from working. I've suggested one possible resolution below that would try to get around that problem, for what it's worth. Mackan79 (talk) 18:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe you'd found any inappropriate behavior by those accounts. If they sometimes agree with one another and support one another's edits, this merely means that they are of like mind. It is absolutely not forbidden for two Misplaced Pages editors to agree with one another. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 18:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Tell that the the numerous people who have been blocked, banned, or marginalized for agreeing too much with the "wrong sort" of others. *Dan T.* (talk) 19:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Before you go any further

I decided to put their edits in the same spreadsheet I've used previously. Going back to September 18, 2006 (SlimVirgin's last 25,000 edits, and the last 9120 or so for Crum375), they have 385 edit collisions—that is, they edited during the same minute 385 times. I've also made these graphs that suggest that Crum375 lives on more regular hours, while SlimVirgin definitely does not.

Of course, Tony would tell you that these methods are untested so mean nothing. I just thought you should keep them in mind. If you still think SlimVirgin might have access to the Crum375 account, perhaps you could look at the edits that Crum375 made in the early morning when the account usually does not. I, at least, would demand a smoking gun, because I'm not seeing it here.

Going forward

I note that in the past four months you've made significant edits to the following articles:

Doctrine of the two kingdoms‎

Separation of church and state‎

SlimVirgin doesn't seem to have any involvement in those articles. The latest attack on SlimVirgin seems to have been provoked by her decision to comment yesterday on your request for an inappropriate block to be removed from your log. In the discussion she mentioned an incident from last year in which several people had asked you to stop behavior that had the appearance of wikistalking towards her. I also note that, perhaps thinking it better to avoid picking at ancient wounds, she removed it a little over half an hour later. Her edit summary was "removing parts of my previous post that were too personal and had no bearing on this issue".

Your own comment came a few minutes after that, and you promptly removed it when you realised that she had removed her own.

This looks to me like a case of bad blood between you and SlimVirgin. I'll ask you both to continue trying to avoid one another, and I really would like to see you drop these inappropriate and poorly founded investigations into a possible connection between two editors who are both in good standing and, even you seem to admit, not socks of one another. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 18:23, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Response

I can appreciate your efforts Tony, particularly on what information you may have, but I don't think this is an effective resolution. As I said, one of the problems here has been the two of them going from one article to another, revert warring, and then making accusations toward any others who arrive. This has recently been discussed on AN/I, as I take you’ve seen.

My problem is that after first experiencing the way SV has often operated in disputes with Crum’s assistance (though largely failing despite the fully panoply of efforts attempted), I ended up looking into it further, for the reasons given on SV's talk page. Upon doing so I found a number of things. One was that Crum375 had added an edit counting script to their monobook within a week of editing. Another was the fact that Crum encountered SV within three weeks, quickly editing numerous articles with SV, from some amount of knowledge. I noticed that somehow during this Crum375 had actually added a direct URL to Daniel Brandt’s hivemind page on his bio (now deleted). When Phil Sandifer removed it, Crum then had this explanation for how they found Brandt’s page and why they made the edit, before suddenly realizing the problem with such a URL. And yet, before this realization, Crum had left these two comments on SV and Flonight’s talk pages. I found that apparently Crum's first substantive edit to policy was on June 25 of 2006 on Verifiability to revert a "non-consensual edit by Francis Shonken" to a version by SV without any further explanation, after Shonken had said to SV that jumping to reverts rather than discussion on the talk page was inappropriate.

There are other things, most predominantly the sheer amount of editing they do together, across many completely unrelated topics. The point became clear that at some very early point Crum started following Slim around for the predominance of their editing and with very few exceptions. In this context, I saw that some of Crum’s early edits focused specifically on the history of science, including to the portal on that subject, one that SV had said in her first edit was one of her own primary interests.

What does it indicate? Without getting into everything, I found it to indicate two editors who are at least close friends, apparently from before the creation of Crum’s account. I found this problematic for other reasons. I don’t go further, because I don’t think it’s sufficiently indicated or could be proved (or possibly needs to be, per some of the arguments that you’ve recently made). However, considering the amount of controversy that has surrounded this situation, and if there isn’t a response, I think that probably it should be discussed, and as well that there are probably few people with more standing to raise it. In that regard, I hope the discussion can remain reasonable, and focused on legitimate issues.Mackan79 (talk) 20:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)