Talk:Barack Obama - Misplaced Pages

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Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:

Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted.
On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance.

New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

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Socialist?

It bothered me that Obama's socialist views were not even hinted at in this article. It seems like the editors are trying to avoid negative information about him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.105.84.60 (talk) 16:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me like you need to research some things before you bring it up. Grsz 11 16:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I would not call Obama's views "socialist." Liberal and socialist are not the same thing. And second, I also would not agree with your characterization of "socialist" as "negative." Kathy (talk) 04:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

His "socialist" views are not mentioned here because they do not exist. Yahel Guhan 04:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Categorization and ranking of Obama's politics

Template:RFCpol

Do voting record-based categorizations and rankings from partisan or nonpartisan sources help improve readers' understanding of Barack Obama's Senate career or his politics? An example of the disputed text is linked here.

Pointers to earlier discussion

Summary statements by editors who are parties to this dispute

One nonpartisan source lists Barack Obama as a "Rank and File Democrat". How is this notable to our purpose here? Readers' understanding of Obama's career or his politics will not be supported by a series of political rankings provided from either partisan or nonpartisan sources. Statistical analysis of voting records is easily manipulated and such surveys almost always reflect some kind of partisan POV. Also, categorizations and rankings derived from such analysis risk conveying a false impression of neutrality. Stringing together a series of such surveys that reach different conclusions does not in any way assist readers' understanding of the underlying complex decisionmaking and negotiating processes that go into determining votes on proposed legislation. "Findings" of these surveys should not be included in Obama's lead biography article, and their usefulness in other political articles is also doubtful. Let readers decide for themselves where a politician fits according to their own criteria and analysis of the issues. --HailFire (talk) 14:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Barack Obama dismisses such political labels as “old politics”, but you don't get to impose his obfuscatory POV here. RS characterize, and report characterizations of, him as "progressive", "liberal" or even, apparently, "rank and file". Our job is to reflect the RS, not hide his ADA rating from readers lest they be too dumb to reach their own conclusions about what it means, no matter how carefully we explain it to them, or maybe smart enough to decide they know that what it means is that they don't want to vote for Obama. Andyvphil (talk) 11:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Commentary by editors who have not previously been involved in this dispute

I'm not personally a big believer in the political spectrum, but many readers and commentators are, so I think it's useful to include a variety of measures of a political figure's placement on such spectrums. It can also be useful to include a variety of interest group assessments ("Jane Smith has a lifetime 85% rating from Americans for Eating Radishes", that sort of thing). Again, not perfect but usually tells you something. It's important to include a variety of these measures and metrics, not just one, and to use lifetime averages, or give the results for several years, as any particular year can easily be an outlier. For the three senators currently running, 2007 is especially problematic for such ratings, since they all missed a lot of votes due to campaigning and thus the sample size is even smaller than usual. Examples of the approach that I think is valid and useful are in Hillary Rodham Clinton#Political positions and Political positions of John McCain#Organizational ratings. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:36, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Editors could show their sincerity by visiting some articles about conservative politicians and removing the word "conservative" there. ;-) Steve Dufour (talk) 19:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
conservatives are generally proud of that label however- there are been no effort to find a "new" euphamism like there has been for liberal/progressive. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 19:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
How or whether Obama self-identifies on a party or spectrum basis is not really what was being asked here. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Surveys are, to a large extent, in this case very subjective. Often they have a political agenda behind their creation. They are to a large extent an attempt to group him in a category. That said, I think the label should be included given as little weight in the article as possible. The original text was way too long, and should be summarized as to be given no more than two or three small sentences covering the whole idea, maybe something like this:

According to the National Journal Senator Obama was labeled the most liberal senator in 2007. According to the Americans for Democratic Action In the sixty votes used by the ADA to measure a legislator's political liberalism during Obama's career in the Senate he has voted for the non-"liberal" result only once.

Yahel Guhan 04:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Whatever decision is made regarding the label 'liberal' and Mr. Obama, it seems important to link to his recent disavowal of that label..?....(or is that too partisan coming from him? perhaps partly for political reasons?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.141.14 (talk) 15:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

New discussion on political categorization

Sharing this blog entry to help illustrate why some of the editors here (myself included) consider votes-based "political spectrum" categorizations (or characterizations), non-notable at best, or at worst, unnecessarily misleading. Comments welcome. --HailFire (talk) 15:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

There's considerably more to MSNBC's analysis of Obama's voting record than your blog suggests. And, of course, the existance of an article on the subject in a RS demonstrates, by definition, the opposite of "non-notability". You don't get to censor the POV, found in multiple RS, that Obama's voting record can be meaningfully analyzed to determine where he stands on the political spectrum merely because you think such analysis is misleading. We are supposed to reflect RS, not overrule them. Andyvphil (talk) 11:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

NPOV The Neutrality of this Article is Challenged

User:Scjessey admits that only favorable information is allowed on this page.

On his and my talk page, User:scjessey explains that only favorable information belongs on the Barack Obama page. Information about Obama's voting record, information about Obama's yearlong denial of his knowledge of Rev. Jeremiah Wright's sermons does not have "any place in the BLP. That should be on the campaign page, if anywhere." User:Scjessey talk

This of course is a clear admission that the Barrack Obama page violates the NPOV policy. Jwvoiland (talk) 15:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC)jwvoiland

This article has been flagged for violation of Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy. Jwvoiland (talk) 16:23, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Please paste here where Scjessey made the statements you claim he made. I see you accusing him of such but I'm missing the part where he states that no negative information may be added. Also, I think you are using the tag as a weapon because you are having a disagreement with other editors. Therefore, it should be removed. →Wordbuilder (talk) 16:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree that Jwvoiland is using the neutrality tag as a weapon in a content dispute, a clear no-no among experienced editors. I presume this is because he/she is a new user with few edits. Let's not bite. --HailFire (talk) 16:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to remind everyone to comply with WP:3RR, to not edit war, and to use the dispute resolution process. If you find your additions being reverted by multiple users, chances are, your changes are not going to get in the article and you should really not revert it back into the article, but rather come to the talk page and try to work with the other editors to find a consensus. If you are still unable to get your content added to the article, proceed up the chain of dispute resolution. Conversely, for the editors that are reverting additions, please remember that consensus can change and don't automatically kill a discussion by saying, "We've already reached consensus on this!" Rather, point them to the consensus agreement and ask if they are willing to follow it. If they are not willing to comply and there isn't much interest on the page to rediscuss their changes, suggest they create an RFC. If they fail to comply by the consensus while they are trying to change the consensus, you should start down the disruptive editing path to get community and administrator support. This fairly constant fighting over content is unproductive and detrimental to the article. --Bobblehead 17:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed the tag for a second time, as there is no justification for it being there. Controversies regarding the presidential campaign are discussed in the article for the presidential campaign. Blocks will be issued for continued disruptive behavior. Grsz 11 17:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't put the tag back on. It's a featured article. It's highly viewed. Tagging is disruptive. Will 17:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I just came back from being out and found this little discussion. It seems pretty clear that I didn't say anything about only allowing favorable information on this article from my editing history. Anyway, it looks like someone else has taken care of this problem already. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, until tomorrow at least, if the user comes back and continues along the same tact, just pop over to AN/I and see if anyone is willing to implement some preventative measures again. The threshold is usually lower than four reverts if they are coming off a block for edit-warring. --Bobblehead 22:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The flag isn't necessary. Anyone who reads it, and compares it to the articles about George W. Bush, Hillary Clinton and John McCain, can easily see tha tit's an NPOV violation. Without criticism, it's a hagiography. Banishing controversial material to other articles that no one will ever read is a whitewash. Let's be neutral about the subject. Kossack4Truth (talk) 19:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I completely disagree. The quality of an article has nothing to do with how it compares to other articles, and the key criticisms of Obama (Rezko, Wright) have been adequately covered. Besides, the three individuals you are comparing Obama too are more worthy of criticism by a considerable margin. Have you considered that the reason the article contains little criticism is because there is little to criticize about Obama? -- Scjessey (talk) 20:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Have you considered that the reason the article contains little criticism is because editors are trying to protect Obama? There is abundant criticism of Obama available from several notable sources. Specifically, this Jeremiah Wright problem has been a major gaffe for Obama, because he first denied having heard Wright say anything inflammatory. Then, when confronted with the evidence, he admitted it just a few days later. It is reasonable to include a representative sample of this criticism. To make room for it in an article this long (recommended length of Misplaced Pages articles is 32 KB plus photos, see WP:SIZE), we should cut back on some of the fawning praise that we see so very much of in this article. Kossack4Truth (talk) 22:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I have considered that possibility, but I have discarded it. I am a neutral editor of this article - I am not a US Citizen and I cannot vote in any elections. My interest in this article is based on its popularity, and the desire to make sure that such an important article maintains the highest possible standard. This "abundant criticism" you speak of that comes from "notable sources" - well I can think of many notable sources that are also unreliable and/or partisan sources. The "major gaffe for Obama" is your personal opinion, inflated by partisan views from partisan sources. Compare this minor case of misspeaking with the McCain's recent confusion over religious factions in the Middle East, for example. Seriously - compared to McCain, Bush and perhaps the Clintons, Obama (if you'll forgive the irony of this expression) is whiter than white! -- Scjessey (talk) 00:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Your neutral opnion is that Obama is a prince. No need to hold an election, just do the right thing and coronate him. Hey!... wasn't that the Saturday Night Live sketch last night? But it's too pathetic to be funny when the person writing the material doesn't realize it's a howler. Or would be, if I were a better person. Andyvphil (talk) 12:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The tag reads "The neutrality of this article is disputed." Hard to disagree, with several having said so in this section. "Please see the discussion on the talk page." That's here. "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved." It isn't. Don't. Andyvphil (talk) 12:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

If there is a true "consensus" as to this page's neutrality, why do several editors keep undoing information that sees Senator Obama in a not so favorable light? A number of editors have included information that a number of others continue to undo, claiming "consensus" against it. The NPOV of this article is clearly challenged. It is not consistent with the NPOV mandate to rule that material about particular controversies must be moved off of this article and into a separate page. Muls1103 (talk) 15:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)muls1103

This isn't Wright's article! That's the consensus, not to put such a great detail of Wright information here when he has his own page to add it to. Clearly you aren't the new user you seem to be. Grsz 11 15:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

::What is the personal insult "Clearly you aren't the new user you seem to be" supposed to mean ? The editors of this page continue to show their hostility to NPOV in favor of Obama-spin. (had been logged out, signing now Muls1103 (talk) 15:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)muls1103)12.145.168.6 (talk) 15:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)muls1103

User:Muls1103 has been blocked (along with User:Letveritas as an abusive sockpuppet of User:Jwvoiland. --jpgordon 16:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with portraying Obama in a "favorable light". It is entirely about undue weight. The existing sentences covering these matters neatly summarize what occurred, and include links to related articles that cover the "controversy" in exhaustive detail. Since this is a biography about Barack Obama, the article is primarily about the person. The additions proposed are, instead, detailed (and biased) accounts of a specific week of Obama's nomination campaign. Certain editors, such as Andyvphil, refuse to accept the prevailing consensus (and downright common sense) that adding such detail, regardless of its accuracy, is ascribing far too much weight to a single event of Obama's life. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This article does seem fairly pro-Obama to me. Articles about other politicians don't avoid controversies. Why should this one? An article's credibility is damaged when it appears to be biased in either direction. Obama is clearly dealing with some criticism. Of course some of it is partisan. But most controversies are partisan. That has not prevented them being included in other articles about politicians. So, why should it here? About the above labeling of the Wright controversy being about "a week" of Obama's life. That is really not very accurate. The Wright controversy is a about a man who has been influential to Obama for nearly half his life, and most of his adult life. This is not inconsequential. The way it is currently portrayed in the article does feel somewhat cleansed and incomplete. ArtsMusicFilm (talk) 17:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Instead of worrying about our alleged POV violations, you should worry about familiarizing yourself with certain guidelines that Scjessey mentioned, as you are a new user. Grsz 11 16:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm accused of hostility, while the other side is using sockpuppets! Ha! Grsz 11 16:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone here contend - with an actual argument - that, despite the discussions littering this talk page and archived versions, that the neutrality of this article is somehow not in dispute? I have re-added the NPOV tag to reflect this. --Davidp (talk) 01:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No, the neutrality of the article is not currently in dispute. The only complainants appear to be the various sock puppets of Jwvoiland and the extraordinarily biased Andyvphil. Everyone else seems to be happy with the article in its current form. Please remove the NPOV tag unless you have identified a specific POV item (in which case, a sectional NPOV tag would be more appropriate anyway). -- Scjessey (talk) 02:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The article needs a controversy section

This is ridiculous, and reeks of Obama supporters trying to hide any critical information. You don't have to agree that something is "controversial," but it was still a controversy focused by the media, and the public. This article is getting pretty laughable. This isn't going to last long. Before you know it, a million people are going swarm here, and start yet another edit war will ensue. Why not just make a section, and keep it in one place, before a bunch of people start fighting over where to place it, and whether or not they "agree" that something was a big enough story. This isn't suppose to be a fan page. Almost all other politicians, have had a criticism, or controversy portion of their article to get it all out there, and not to have people sliding stuff into the other portions, where others might miss it. This is the easiest solution to move past the "bias" assessment. Things like the "no hand over heart during the national anthem," "won't wear a flag pin," stories, are still notable, whether you find them ridiculous or not. My point is, it's better to agree on these controversies/criticisms now, give them a spot, and move on. This back and forth is getting tiresome. 07:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

um, no. That is not necessary. None of the candidates have a criticism section, and if they do, it is a sign that it needs to be cleaned up and possibly removed or merged into other parts of the article. Yahel Guhan 07:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yahel has it right. Or as Gzkn commented a while back, consider what would be said if we decided to have "praise" sections in these articles. Tvoz |talk

This article is typical example of the bias that pervades every corner of Misplaced Pages. Compare and contrast Jeremiah Wright's mention in this article (and glowing biography) to the entire section devoted to the Keating Five on John McCain's page. The nut-jobs who admin this site don't understand that they undermine their own credibility with this sort of "fairness". Admittedly, Misplaced Pages is a great resource if you need to know the name of Boba Fett's uncle or who wrote the 14th episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That said, Misplaced Pages is a political joke, philosophically broken and scientifically faulty. 72.196.233.224 (talk) 11:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Since that was only your second contribution to Misplaced Pages, I'd like to point out that Misplaced Pages can be edited by anyone. If you think something is wrong, improve it! Regarding your comparison of this article with the biography of John McCain, the problem may lie with the McCain article itself. When evaluating whether or not to include material in a biography, one must consider the significance of that material. If you think the "Keating 5" section is given too much weight within the scope of McCain's life, raise objections on that article's talk page. That is far more productive and useful than simply calling people "nut-jobs" and referring to Misplaced Pages as a "joke". -- Scjessey (talk) 15:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey, there is very little point in trying to improve it. The people who made it this way are hovering over their favorite articles, because they made them that way and they want them to stay that way. Because there is an entire section on the Keating Five in John McCain's article, and an entire section on Whitewater in the Hillary Clinton article, there must, I repeat must,' be an entire section on the Wright controversy in this article. Kossack4Truth (talk) 11:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I know the other stuff essay is about deletion discussions but it also applies here. Just because things exist in other articles doesn't mean something must exist in this article. Jons63 (talk) 12:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

And as I have said before, what happens in other articles has no bearing on what happens in this one. At the moment, the "Wright controversy" is only significant to Obama's campaign at the moment. As such, it receives plenty of attention in the appropriate article. As far as his biography is concerned, however, it is (currently) of little significance, so it receives the necessary concise summary. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The things cited as 'controversies' here hardly hold any bearing on his potential policies or ability to govern the country. If he becomes embroiled in an actual scandal, sure, maybe adding it is worthwhile. But not putting his hand on his heart? That's not a controversy. It's an overblown issue which is only prolonged by adding fuel to the fire by mentioning it further. Belfunk (talk) 22:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This article was definitely written by Obama fans. 138.67.4.87 (talk) 22:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You say it and run away, but can you back up what you say and provide instances where this article favors Obama? Grsz 11 00:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Very simply put: any time there's criticism or controversy, it is banished to a satellite article that no one will ever read. There are numerous examples on this page and in the archives. The presidential campaign is the one major notable event in Obama's life. Four years ago, he was a mediocre state senator in Springfield, Illinois. Kossack4Truth (talk) 11:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It is not being "banished". Trying to cover the full scope of a candidate's campaign in their biographical article would make the article ridiculously long. By giving the campaign its own article, it enables Misplaced Pages to offer a more in-depth coverage of every aspect of the campaign - including the "Wright controversy" that you seem to hold so dear. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The suggestion was made that I make edits. As has been said above and elsewhere that is a futile effort. For simply questioning the bias of Misplaced Pages, I've already been threatened with a muzzle. If that's the response I get from a talk page, then I'm quite certain that if I commit the crime of editing an article I will be hammered into oblivion. The Stalinists who run Misplaced Pages do not seem to have much tolerance for diversity of opinion. That said, I'll give Misplaced Pages its props. If you want to know the difference between cylons and stormtroopers, you've found the place. If you want to know what the progressive/liberal talking point is, this is the place to go. But if you want a fair and impartial political resource: this is not the reference you want. I submit this article as proof of that thesis. 72.196.233.224 (talk) 11:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

POV

As nobody who thinks the tag belongs can explain why the tag belongs/that the article is POV, it should be removed. It's been argued countless time why it should not be there, and now the editors who keep adding it seem to be adding it just for the heck of it, or because they don't agree with the consensus. Grsz 11 03:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That is correct - no credible arguments have been presented that the article, or the section, is not neutral. Tags are not to be used as POV weapons. I'm removing the tag. Tvoz |talk 07:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As I explained, ...A purposely short and vague description of a controversy of fundamental and demonstrated importance to Obama's career, answered solely by Obama's spin, with no other POV on the subject allowed... we also have the enforcement of Obama's POV that such "old politics" characterizations of his record as favorable ADA ratings must be excluded. The POV tag says what it means and means what it says. A dispute about the neutrality of this article is in progress... Andyvphil (talk) 23:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC) I'm readding the POV tag. Andyvphil (talk) 13:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Have you even looked at the articles for the campaign or Jeremiah Wright. Covering this issue with as much detail as is done there is a violation of recentism. If you can address the issue subtly, as it should be, feel free. But you haven't. You just go and add a lot of inappropriate information that is already adequetely covered elsewhere. The section has a {{main}} tag, leading the reader to the campaign article, where they are better off finding more information on the campaign, and the controversy is covered in depth. I moved the POV tag, as the article is NOT in violation of POV. I left it on the section, rather than starting an edit war. Grsz 11 13:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It is only of "fundamental and demonstrated importance" if you read conservative blogs, listen to conservative talk radio, or hang on the words of Clinton's spin machine. Most commentators agree that Obama's speech, for the most part, answered the questions asked by his association with Jeremiah Wright. Regardless of whether or not this fact is true, the full extent of the details and discussions surrounding this particular issue are far beyond the scope of a BLP like this. Trying to cover it in this article, with the necessary brevity, wouldn't do it the kind of justice you are looking for anyway. It is much better suited to the related articles A More Perfect Union, Jeremiah Wright and Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I rewrote the paragraph a bit. It links directly to the section to Wright in the campaign article. Let me know how it works. Grsz 11 13:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Which bit is POV?

Instead of just wacking in NPOV tags all over the place without comment, kindly explain exactly which bits are POV so that we can try to address them. Give us specifics, rather than simply generalities. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Not reporting Obama's vote ratings is POV. Not reporting that the church he chose to join and support for 20 years was and is known for Black Liberation theology/politics, and not making clear what that is, is POV. Reporting his speech in response to the Wright firestorm only in terms of his own characterization of it is POV. The POV of this article is disputed -- attempting to conceal that by removing the POV tag is POV. Andyvphil (talk) 14:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It has already been established that the vote ratings for ALL candidates in 2007 are thoroughly misleading when indicating career voting behavior because the statistics are distorted by the lack of data. Obama's religion and church are covered adequately in numerous places within the article. The controversy surrounding the pastor of that church is exhaustively covered in the relevant related articles and a satisfactory summary, agreed upon by overwhelming consensus, links to those related articles. The NPOV tag was removed after consensus had been reached, and only re-added today with no specific reason given. It is in fact your own edits that destroy the neutrality of this article, by adding biased and misleading data. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The material you deleted on ratings cover all three years and addressed the missed votes issue. The church and pastor are not covered "adequately", and your assertion to the contrary does not address the omissions I specified. No POV critical of Obama on the Wright issue remains in the article. Material in related articles does not address omission of balancing POV here, and there can be no legitimate "consensus" to overrule NPOV requirements. NPOV is POLICY. It is simply a lie to say the NPOV tag "was removed after consensus had been reached" -- it was removed immediately and repeatedly by edit warring without any consensus. Your assertion that the material you are removing is "biased and misleading" is simply an unsupported and unconvincing assertion. And coming from an editor who has written "Have you considered that the reason the article contains little criticism is because there is little to criticize about Obama?" any claim from you about anti-Obama bias requires proof. And, btw, your self-revert only got you back to 4 reverts in 24 hours. Be more careful in the future. Andyvphil (talk) 15:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Andy, but you are completely wrong about this. The stuff you have been trying to add doesn't balance anything - it skews it in a negative direction to satisfy your desires. And like I said before, I can't even vote! How can I be pro anybody if I have vested interest? Also, unlike you I don't monitor my contributions to make sure I don't violate 3RR. I just do what I think needs to be done. Your record of "hit and run" every 24 hours is different. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You've been warned. You were reported. You offered to accept a penalty, and that offer was accepted. You are on parole. Start monitoring yourself. As to your suggestion that you can't be biased in favor of Obama because you can't vote for him... well, civil words fail me. I would think you were pulling my leg, except you are so consistent. See ~"There is no criticism of Obama because he's so perfect."~ Not ROFL. Just stunned pity at the obliviousness, maybe. Andyvphil (talk) 23:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

andy you seem to have the worst understanding of 3rr policy I've ever seen. Obviously reverting a drive-by POV tag vandal, on a main Biography page, goes pretty close to the BLP guidelines and any user making good faith edits with proper interpretation of BLP as a goal, that is a good faith argument that temporizes any dastardly dangerous violations of 3rr, which surely is the most important issue this page currently has. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 23:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

So adding your own POV somehow makes the article more neutral? I don't think so. Grsz 11 15:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Adding balancing POV is exactly what WP:NPOV calls for. Read it. It's "core" policy: Articles must represent all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. Such as the significant view that Obama's choice of Wright tells us something important about Obama. Where is it in the article? It not being there is an NPOV violation. Andyvphil (talk) 15:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It's in his campaign article, because it's relevant to his campaign! Should I start adding Ferraro's and Carville's statements to Clinton's main page? Or her lies about Bosnia? Grsz 11 15:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It also is a bit excessive. How much needs to be said about how he voted? It doesn't disserve the weight you gave to the issue. His voting record is not that important to his biography. Why don't you try summarizing it, as a compromise? Yahel Guhan 18:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps something along the lines of "According to analysis by GovTrack of the bills that Obama has sponsored, Obama is a "rank and file Democrat"." --Bobblehead 18:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What part of "all significant views" are you not getting? You can have that POV in the article, you just can't keep out the others. Andyvphil (talk) 21:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Policy on article size states that an article over 100KB should "almost certainly" be broken up. This article is at 484. Adding information that is already quite thoroughly covered elsewhere violates the Manual of Style in this regard. Grsz 11 19:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

My apologies, as I couldn't see size on the edit page. Regardless, these are unneeded additions where there are other relevant articles where they can be better addressed. Wright controversey → Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008; Reviews of his political positions → Political positions of Barack Obama. Grsz 11 21:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Please re-read WP:SIZE. The guideline is for readable text, not for total page size. This article has 37k of readable text. This is well below the 100k "almost certainly" be broken up threshold and it is also below the 50k generally applied to FA. --Bobblehead 19:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

See here - I get 35K of readable prose. Even if it's 37K, it is well within all guidelines. But we have worked hard to keep it at about that size - so I agree that the approach taken here, as in all of these types of articles, of having shorter summary sections in the main article and longer daughter articles for major areas makes sense and conforms with policy. The Presidential campaign article goes into great detail about many things surrounding the Obama campaign, including the Wright matter and much more. That is appropriate and doesn't make this main article any less neutral. But a reminder: this is supposed to be a biography of a notable person - his entire life and career - not an article specifically about a presidential candidate. Therefore we have to keep this aspect of his biography in perspective, just as we do on all of the other biographies. That is not POV, that is policy. Tvoz |talk 20:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

And that is precisely what I thought we had already worked out in various consensus discussions. The problem is that users like Andyvphil don't like this approach because they want the article to have a more negative and controversial feel about it. They confuse efforts to maintain a normal WP:BLP style with POV editing. The kind of reportage they are looking for is more suited to the campaign article which tends to report everything in often exhaustive detail. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Summary style guidelines require that the summary left in the main article be NPOV. The notion that Wright's political activities are so unimportant to Obama's bio that the controvery about him is properly summarized by saying only that there is a controversy, and that Obama has give a speech to address it, is laughable. There is another significant POV found in reliable sources, and this article need to reflect it. Further, the idea that Obama's place on the political spectrum is both to some degree determinable and significant hasn't been spun out, merely censored. Andyvphil (talk) 22:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a compromise wording can be worked out? Something in between the two sentences favored by one faction and the up to six paragraphs favored by another faction? Perhaps something that includes a summary of the impact of the controversy? --Bobblehead 23:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

you make it sound like two sentences is somehow inappropriate , when in fact it seems a little long considering the new WSJ/NBC poll which shows Obama lost two points of positive and gained four of negative- to come to a pos/neg of 49/32 (early march was 51/28) where as Clinton got slammed during the same period and lost EIGHT points of positive and picked up five of negative to go from 45/43 to 37/48 (thats 11 points of negative spread BTW) ]

long story short- folks the Wright issue is DOA until (lol Bobblehead) something breaks in the story, which hasn't happened in a while. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 23:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Since we're discussing polls, would you like to discuss Gallup's rolling five-day average? Obama has gone from two points ahead of McCain to three points behind in just two weeks, and shows no sign of regaining the lead. In a race this close, the "DOA" Wright issue could very easily cost Obama the White House. It doesn't get any more notable than that. But there are people here who believe that even two sentences with no section header is too much. Kossack4Truth (talk) 23:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

yes you're right most editors do choose two sentences as their consensus version lol. Someone with such vast knowledge of polls as you should then know two things: this is a campaign issue, hence the majority of WP coverage is on the campaign page. You should also know that cited McCain figures is disingenuous when he is essentially not campaigning until the democratic race is over. Your claims about the "White House" are a joke compared to WP is not a crystal ball... 72.0.180.2 (talk) 00:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm by no means saying that two sentences is inappropriate, nor am I saying that six paragraphs is inappropriate. What I'm saying is that the incessant edit warring over the content and the blatant lack of good faith on all sides is ludicrous and has to stop. Unless the factions start to actually discussing a compromise that they find acceptable this article will continue to see edit warring and more rounds of full protection. --Bobblehead 00:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Although I think some of the concerns over NPOV (specifically involving his political stance and voting record) are valid, I think as a general rule, this article, by the subject's nature, is going to read more pro-Obama than against him, largely because there is little to criticize HIM about (read that carefully, I do not include Rev Wright or the issues of any other associate to be the same as criticism of him). This is true across the board. For instance, someone like Mother Theresa is going to have an overwhelmingly positive article because there is little to criticize her over. However, someone like say Adolf Hitler is going to have an overwhelmingly negative bias because the vast, vast majority of the globe is of the belief that what he did is wrong (minus Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, I can't think of a current leader of a nation that does not condemn the actions of the Nazis). The Wright issue should ideally be about how it effected HIM as a person, and how it effected his Campaign not in terms of the people, but in terms of both his feelings about it, and his politics. -- False Prophet (talk) 02:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Wright controversy - Bobblehead's effort

Just to throw an idea out there:

In March 2008, a controversy broke out concerning racially and politically charged sermons made by Obama's longtime pastor and religious mentor, Jeremiah Wright. In the days following the revelation of Wright's sermons, Clinton took her first statistically significant lead of 7 percent in Gallup's Democratic national polling since shortly after Super Tuesday. In an attempt to stave off the controversy, Obama delivered a speech titled "A More Perfect Union" at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in which he sought to explain and contextualize Wright's comments while trying to expand the discussion to include race relations in general. Following Obama's speech, Clinton's lead in Gallup's polling began to recede until the two were virtually tied, but, after leading in the poll by 6 percent the previous week, Obama's campaign had not fully recovered from the damage caused by the Wright controversy.

Just throwing that out there as a start. --Bobblehead 00:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on Bobblehead's effort

That seems okay to me, although I still think there is more detail in there than necessary. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

not very ok with me, but I'm a pain anyways so take it for what its worth... I give you one set of numbers, you go with another and don't even mention the interpretation I put forth. Fine, but please know that two separate news broadcasts I watch LED OFF today with a story essentially saying that the polling they expected to show the Obama/Wright problem, in fact showed Clinton doing far worse than Obama. So again write what you want for the hypothetical paragraph, but I would hope it might work toward a more neutral direction. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 00:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

My proposal is by no means the final version that has to be used and is put out there only as a starting point to get some sort of consensus discussion going to put an end to this edit warring. If you don't think my proposal is acceptable, then propose an alternative. It really isn't that difficult. --Bobblehead 00:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

in this case your assumptions were probably correct lol, I am a pledged and oath-taken supporter of the current two-sentence version. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 00:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay.. The point of consensus building is to make compromises in such a manner that while you may not agree with the end result, you at least find it acceptable. It is apparent that the two sentence alternative (as it currently exists) is not acceptable to at least one group of editors and as such, clinging to that wording is a non-starter in consensus building. Conversely, clinging to the six paragraph alternative is also a non-starter. If any editor is not willing to find a consensus/compromise that is acceptable to the various groups, then we can start ignoring their contributions to the discussion while the rest try to get consensus. Given that, what's your compromise alternative wording? --Bobblehead 01:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

to clarify, I guess if you want to make the two sentences more critical of Obama, fine I guess. But there really should be no more than two sentences. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 01:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think two sentences is unacceptable, given the amount of attention that has been given to this issue by notable sources, and the effect it has had on Obama's chances to win the White House. I think meeting halfway, at two or three paragraphs, would be a fair compromise. I think Bobblehead's paragraph is a good place to start, and adding the Mark Steyn quotation (as representative of the abundant criticism that is out there in notable sources) is a good way to move it toward completion. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That seems decent to me. My only beef is the polls, as this is not Clinton's article. This article is a biography of Obama, and therefore should only include biographical information about him. I doubt this would appease the other side, as there idea of making it neutral was two or three paragraphs of some terrible Fox News slant, or something along those lines. Grsz 11 01:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Even with the poll bit, is it even worth noting here that Clinton took the lead for what...four days? Something as miniscule as that can certainly be ignored here and taken to the other article. Grsz 11 01:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

More still, the two sentences in the article now, that I rewrote earlier are completely neutral. They mention that there was a controversy, what it was about, and that Obama responded. It makes no judgement on the nature of Wright's statements, or Obama's speech. I can't see anything wrong with this, as it summarizes and directs the reader to the campaign article where numerous different viewpoints are addressed. Grsz 11 01:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Wright controversy - Kossack4Truth's effort

Here is my suggested three-paragraph version of the new Wright section. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Wright controversy

In March 2008, a controversy broke out concerning racially- and politically-charged statements made by Obama's long-time pastor Jeremiah Wright. In them, Wright accused the federal government of selling drugs to blacks, creating the HIV virus to infect blacks, and perpetuating racism that led to disproportionate imprisonment of blacks. In one sermon, Wright said that the United States was responsible for the September 11th, 2001 attacks and urged black Americans to ask God to "damn America." Following the story, Obama faced criticism for referring to Wright as his "spiritual advisor," attending the church for 20 years, and maintaining close personal ties to the minister. Wright presided over Obama's wedding and baptized both of his daughters; Obama points to Wright as the inspiration for the title of his book The Audacity of Hope and placed Wright on his campaign's African American Religious Leadership Committee in December 2007.

Obama had begun distancing himself from Wright when he withdrew a request that Wright deliver a speech at the announcement of his presidential bid in February 2008, but when several videos of Wright's sermons appeared on YouTube in the first week of March 2008, Obama released a statement "vehemently disagree and strongly condemn ... inflammatory and appalling remarks Wright made about our country, our politics, and my political opponents." Obama said the remarks had come to his attention at the beginning of his presidential campaign but that because Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of Obama's strong links to the Trinity faith community, he had not thought it "appropriate" to leave the church. After the publicity of March, the campaign announced that Wright has left its African American Religious Leadership Committee. On March 18th, Obama delivered a speech in response to the controversy titled "A More Perfect Union" at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and while condemning the ill-received remarks Wright had made, he also sought to give them historical context by describing some of the events that have formed Wright's views on race.

In the speech, Obama referred to his white grandmother and later explained that "she is a typical white person. If she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know ... there's a reaction in her that doesn't go away and it comes out in the wrong way." ABC News reported that "buried in his eloquent, highly praised speech on America's racial divide, Sen. Barack Obama contradicted more than a year of denials and spin from him and his staff about his knowledge of Rev. Jeremiah Wright's controversial sermons." Critics have found the response not only contradictory, but inadequate. For example, Mark Steyn, writing in the National Review observed,

"Obama is not supposed to be the candidate of the America-damners: He’s not the Reverend Al Sharpton or the Reverend Jesse Jackson or the rest of the racial-grievance mongers. Obama is meant to be the man who transcends the divisions of race ... Yet since his early twenties ’s sat week after week listening to the ravings of just another cookie-cutter race huckster ... the Reverend Wright appeals to racial bitterness are supposed to be everything President Obama will transcend. Right now, it sounds more like the same-old same-old."

Discussion on Kossack4Truth's effort

Comments about the three-paragraph version down here please. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

For the main article? Entirely too long. Tvoz |talk 01:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Grsz 11 01:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The main section in the campaign article is 6 paragraphs...how can you think this is appropriate here? Grsz 11 01:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Completely unacceptable, I'm afraid. The first two paragraphs are all about Jeremiah Wright and what he said. This is a biography of Barack Obama, in case you didn't notice. I still think a single paragraph is way too long, so a three-paragraph tome about some other dude is never going to work for me. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Three paras is a bit long for the main article, IMHO. I'd really like to keep it to one para at the most. So far it seems the issue hasn't really had a lasting impact on the campaign (well, as far as the primary is concerned). Sure it knocked him down a few points in the polls initially, but he's pretty much recovered from that. Of course, that doesn't mean it can't be expanded if the impact is greater later. --Bobblehead 04:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not just provide links to the appropriate pages ?--Die4Dixie 22:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

Wright controversy - Scjessey's effort

Here's my attempt at a compromise. This is a combination of some ideas from User:Bobblehead and the original text from 72.0.180.2:

In March 2008, a controversy broke out concerning racially and politically charged sermons made by Obama's longtime pastor and religious mentor, Jeremiah Wright. Following significant negative media coverage, Obama chose to respond to the controversy by delivering a speech entitled "A More Perfect Union" at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Although the speech was generally well-received for its attempt to explain and contextualize Wright's comments while trying to expand the discussion to include race relations in general, the decision not to repudiate Reverend Wright failed to definitively end the matter.

I believe this satisfies the need for brevity, yet still manages to include more of the negative aspects that are desired by some. The references are intact if a wholesale copy/paste is needed. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments on Scjessey's effort

It's awesome! -- Scjessey (talk) 02:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC) </sarcasm>

Ha - but I agree. Works for me. Tvoz |talk 02:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Couple of thoughts here. The comment that by not repudiate Wright is extending the controversy is the opinion of the guy that created the Swift Boat ads and we should really attribute it to him as that's the first I've heard of that opinion. General opinion that I've seen is that no matter what Obama does it will stick to him in some measure and that this will be added to the general "Obama is anti-American" meme. Second thought is that the most recent source in this version is from the 21st. Perhaps a source from the last few days would be a better judge of the results of Obama's speech and the lasting impact of the controversy? I'd also like to see something that reflects the (temporary) drop in polls as a result. Without mentioning that drop it's hard to assess just why Obama gave the speech (negative press is common in a campaign). Perhaps something like "Due to a drop in polls as a result of the negative media coverage, Obama chose to respond to the controversy..." --Bobblehead 03:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess I would argue that Obama's speech was responding to the negative press more than the poll drop. The polls were already evening out by the time that speech was given, and usually the internal campaign polls are a couple days ahead of the public ones. bla bla bla etc. Its a minor issue. More importantly, I agree with Bobblehead about the last sentence. If you want to mention the "staying-power" of the controversy, I might suggest saying (to the effect): his descision not to repudiate drew praise from some and criticism from others, including HRC who kept the issue topical into the new week, by saying that Wright "would not be her pastor." again or some jibber jabber to that effect. But again both efforts on a rewrite have been good... 72.0.180.2 (talk) 04:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the Wright controversy has little effect on the polls (short or long term) with respect to the Democratic nomination. It has seem to have made a difference with respect to the General Election, but Clinton has suffered by pretty much the same amount. The polling seems to be more a reflection of Democratic in-fighting than anything specific, so I don't think including the polling data is necessary. Agreed on all other points. I'd like to see some feedback from the "other side" though. The whole point of this is to try to negotiate a compromise. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Any acceptable version is going to have to be clearer about what was controversial and about why Obama's image is affected by the controversy. "Racially and politically charged" doesn't cut it. His problem, and the biographical fact that has to be clear in his biography article, is not that he didn't repudiate Wright now, it's that he signed on and sat there for twenty years while Wright preached from day one in a way that that a lot of potential Obama voters see as hostile raving, and that this is not compatable with Obama's carefully cultivated image as someone who transcends black hostility. And you are going to have to allow some mention of the POV that his response was an attempt to change the subject, not merely put everything in "perspective". Andyvphil (talk) 14:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, this is a biography of Obama and not of Jeremiah Wright. The level of detail you are expecting simply isn't appropriate. Secondly, it has become apparent from Obama's own words and the exhaustive investigation of the mainstream media that the candidate was not in church at the times Wright made the controversial statements that have been reported (although Obama admits he was aware that statements may have been made). Thirdly, we are talking about a handful of controversial statements made over a thirty year period that began during a time of great racial tension and black oppression. This fact doesn't excuse Wright's words, but it does offer context in which it is easy to understand how such statements could surface. Fourthly, it is worth noting that Barack Obama's good character and inclusive stance has evolved despite his relationship with Reverend Wright. Finally, and perhaps most significantly, in the context of Obama's entire life it is now clear that the controversy surrounding Wright has not been of much significance to Obama or his campaign, which is why no more than a brief summary that points to a more exhaustive explanation is all that is needed. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome to your POV, you just don't get to impose it on the article. "Obama's... inclusive stance" may be real or it may be a pose exposed by his voluntary adherence to Wright's church. You may believe that Obama wasn't in Trinity on any occasion when Jeremiah Wright went raving over the edge, and never learned about such an occasion with any promptitude, but there's a different POV that doesn't believe that Obama began lying about this only 13 months ago. And Obama didn't have to be in church to find out that Wright had said Louis Farrakhan "truly epitomized greatness." That was in the Trumpet. As I said, your version is a non-starter. Andyvphil (talk) 11:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. We are trying to resolve the dispute, Andy. Have you nothing constructive to offer the discussion? The facts are these: although the Wright controversy continues to be discussed, it has had almost no effect on voters. It may yet surface again if Obama goes on to win the nomination and run against McCain, but until then it is adequately covered without undue weight. I have tried to come up with an "extended" paragraph with what I believe to be a more neutral tone, building on the work of other editors. Rather than dismiss the paragraph as a "non-starter", why not come up with your own reasonable version of the paragraph so that we can see how far apart we are? -- Scjessey (talk) 12:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm starting to think you would like half of this article about Wright. Grsz 11 13:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

""The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability" from WP:BLP#Criticism. Did people not know of Obama before this? Maybe a few extermely ignorant individuals, but hardly a significant number. Grsz 11 13:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

You asked, "Did people not know of Obama before this?" Four years ago, Obama was an obscure state senator (translation: provincial legislator) in Springfield, Illinois. This presidential campaign is the most noteworthy event of his life. Nothing else even comes close. Scjessey said, "it has had almost no effect on voters." This is a close race, and in the Gallup five-day rolling average, Obama has dropped from two points ahead of McCain to 2-3 points behind and stayed there. Granted, a 4-5 point move can be described as "almost no effect." But going from "ahead of McCain" to "behind McCain" cannot reasonably be described as "almost no effect." Obama himself, who has never previously shown the slightest sign of faltering, admitted that the controversy over Wright has left him "shaken." Scjessey's version doesn't give this cpontroversy the attention it deserves. Add the mark Steyn quote and a "Wright controversy" section header and it would be acceptable. Kossack4Truth (talk) 21:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Two articles from the nonpartisan Pew Research Centre might shed some light on this. On the one hand, this poll shows that the Wright matter hasn't had a significant effect on Obama's support. On the other hand, this poll notes that the speech and the Wright videos were the two most widely covered items in the 2008 presidential campaign to date. I'd say that means that it merits more coverage than the article currently gives, but I'm not sure that the Mark Steyn quote is particularly representative of people's responses to the controversy and speech. If we were to add the Steyn quote, I think that we would also have to add a balancing quotation from one of the many pundits and commentators who have praised the speech. Would that place undue weight on the matter? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

P.S. There's more detail on the effect of the Wright matter and the speech on the polls at A More Perfect Union#Effect on voters. Looks to me as if the net effect was more or less negligible. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) - I agree that this election is the most noteworthy event in Obama's political life, and that is why it warrants its own article. That is why Josiah's suggestion of pruning the 2004 speech makes sense. The most recent Pew Research Center poll continues to show that Obama (and Clinton) have a statistically significant lead over McCain, so using polls as an argument for including more of the "Wright controversy" isn't useful. As for Mark Steyn, I certainly don't think the personal opinion of a well-known liberal-hating conservative has any place in a brief summary of what is still only a footnote of Obama's entire campaign. After two weeks, the only people talking about Wright are right-wingers who are never going to vote for any Democrat anyway. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Maureen Dowd's column in The New York Times today is about Wright/Obama, and the desperate effort to force Hillary out of the race before she can capitalize on Wright/Obama. Read it. It's clear that Dowd is not a right-winger and that she's going to vote for a Democrat. There are many, many other examples I could provide: genuinely progressive, even left-wing political commentary from notable sources who aren't just talking about Wright/Obama, but seem unable to talk about much of anything else. This controversy merits its own section, including criticism from someone who isn't going to vote for a Democrat, because they deserve to be heard and there are a lot of them, and it merits a section header. Kossack4Truth (talk) 03:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Kossack- your post there was totally misleading fyi. I mean you might win some awards for a fish story, but as far as commentary on Maureen Dowd, you maybe missed the boat a little. The word "Wright" was used exactly once that I saw, so maybe other's should read that article as well (the word desperate was NOT used ever in that article of course...Maureen keeps it classy regardless of what you think.) 72.0.180.2 (talk) 06:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Wright affair has been heavily featured in the media for the past couple of weeks, and it probably deserves more than the two sentences the article currently gives it. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that it deserves its own section, though — it's not as if the Wright affair or even the speech (which, let's remember, has its own article) was one of the key incidents or themes of the man's life. It's an important episode in the campaign, but it's not as important as the campaign itself, or his time in the Senate. To say otherwise is recentism. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Would anyone object to replacing the current paragraph with Scjessey's version? I know that Andyvphil doesn't think it's adequate, but surely from his perspective Scjessey's version would be an improvement over what's there now. I realize that this won't resolve the issue for Andyvphil, but if we want to keep good faith on all sides we should acknowledge when good faith efforts are being made. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I think there's a substantial number of more in favor than not. Grsz 11 22:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

If moving Scjessey's proposal onto the article would end the edit war, I'd be all for it, but I'm not sure it will resolve the dispute based on the comments above of the editors that disagree with it. --Bobblehead 22:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks good, but I would agree that the last line needs work. We can't assume that the situation would have been "definitively ended" if Obama had "repudiated" Wright. Paisan30 (talk) 22:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Josiah's tweak of Scjessey's proposal

Paisan30 makes a good point about what would or wouldn't have "definitively ended" the controversy. I do think it's worth noting that Obama rejected Wright's offensive statements while refusing to repudiate the man. How's this variant on Scjessey's theme? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

In March 2008, a controversy broke out concerning racially and politically charged sermons made by Obama's longtime pastor and religious mentor, Jeremiah Wright. Following significant negative media coverage, Obama chose to respond to the controversy by delivering a speech entitled "A More Perfect Union" at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. In the speech, Obama rejected Wright's offensive comments, but declined to disown the man himself. Although the speech was generally well-received for its attempt to explain and contextualize Wright's comments, some critics continued to press the question of Obama's long-standing relationship with Wright.

best yet... 72.0.180.2 (talk) 05:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Works for me. --Bobblehead 05:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Thumbs up. Grsz 11 05:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Then make the edit. As time goes on, and as it becomes more and more obvious that this issue will cost Obama the White House, perhaps you'll reconsider giving it more than one paragraph without a section header. Kossack4Truth (talk) 12:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If Obama wins the nomination, I am sure the Republicans will try to milk this Wright thing for all it's worth (despite the fact that McCain enjoys the endorsement of some pretty awful religious nut-jobs himeself). However, I think you will find that once the Democrats have settled on and united behind a candidate, McCain doesn't stand a chance with his pro-war and ignore-economy stance. But this is not the place to debate such matters... - This is the best version yet and I would imagine that the concluding sentence and citations will mollify those insisting on more negativity. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey, this article is a hagiography. Every valid, well-grounded criticism gets one or two sentences and banishment to a satellite article that no one ever reads. Kossack4Truth (talk) 14:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Well it appears that dozens (if not hundreds) of other Wikipedians disagree with you. This article reads like a normal biography to me. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't know about dozens, but False Prophet agrees with you that there shouldn't be much criticism of Obama. The comparison with Mother Teresa made me think it was you writing, but I was surprised by the signature.

Anyway, the controversy isn't "concerning the sermons". It's concerning Obama's joining, and then failing to disassociate himself from, a church in which blaming the CIA for AIDS, etc., is considered within the range of normal discourse, rather than raving insanity. And Obama's now added that had Wright not retired he would have left Trinity, so his "declining to disown" in the Philly speech is a defensive position that has already fallen. Now that he's conceeded that Wright is reason enough to leave he's going to have a hard time justifying sticking around as long as he did. Wright's sermons have been broadcast for some time. Gotta be tapes out there, from well before 9/11. And what was well received in the speech was not the "attempt to explain and contextualize Wright's comments". The ones who praise the speech don't praise it for that.

So, some tweaks are in order. But as K4T says, if Obama gets the nom attacks by those less inhibited than Hillary will put the Wright business front and center, and the defenders of the pro-Obama POV won't have enough thumbs to keep the dikes from leaking. I'd rather talk about the ADA ratings. Need to put some flesh on his self-identification as "progressive". Andyvphil (talk) 15:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The only people making a fuss about this are Hillary fans (who have conveniently forgotten how helpful Wright was to Bill Clinton) and staunch Republicans who would never vote for any Democrat. Even the electorate is bored of it, according to all the recent polls. Even McCain thinks this has blown up out of all proportion. Wright came to prominence in a time when black people were treated like sub-humans, and it is hardly surprising that he still has a bit of a chip on his shoulder about it. But regardless of his controversial comments (which I personally find either ludicrous, disgusting or both) he has done a tremendous amount of good for his community, and he has been a positive influence on Barack Obama. You guys are fixated on the tiny island of bad in a gigantic ocean of good. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with Josiah's rework of Scjessey's attempt. Tvoz |talk 20:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's clear that discussion over this isn't over, but this seems like the closest we've gotten to a consensus so far. It's certainly in keeping with the description here:

a mixture across the community of those who are largely agreed, some who disagree but 'agree to disagree' without disaffection, those who don't agree but give low priority to the given issue, those who disagree strongly but concede that there is a community view and respect it on that level, some vocal and unreconciled folk, some who operate 'outside the law'.

So I guess I'll put this version in the article. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Wright done for now?

Okay, with Josiah's modified version of Scjessey's proposal in the article does this close the edit war about how much content should be included about the Wright controversy in the main article for now? Obviously if new developments occur in the future more content will need to be discussed/added, but for now, is everyone at least willing to not edit war over the content in the Wright paragraph? There is another point of contention to discuss (his voting record). --Bobblehead 01:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Children in infobox

Should his children be mentioned in the infobox as they are with John McCain and Hillary Clinton? Just wondering for the sake of consistency, it doesn't really matter. -Mansley (talk) 02:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Considering that they are named in the personal life section, it's probably alright if they are included in the infobox.--Bobblehead 03:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. If someone wants to do it that's fine, but again, it's no big deal. --Mansley (talk) 03:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable; added. Incidentally, the online cited source in the "Personal life" section gave ages for Malia and Sasha, but didn't mention their birth years. I don't have copies of Obama's books to hand, to see if their birth years were mentioned in them, as the citation would suggest. I put the years in the infobox on the assumption that the "Personal life" section was correct, but couldn't verify without the books at hand. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed change to "Early life and career"

This is a proposed correction to the "Early life and career" section of the article. The name of the law firm where Obama worked for a decade is incorrect. It is Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland, and it is a small, 12-attorney firm that represents slumlords. Also, the article says that Obama only worked there for three years. The fact is that Obama worked there for ten years. The current single sentence reads like this:

As an associate attorney with Miner, Barnhill & Galland from 1993 to 1996, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases.

Leaving out the name "Davis" confounds most search attempts and divorces Obama from the firm's founder and godfather, Allison Davis, a notorious slumlords' attorney in Chicago. I propose replacing that sentence with these two sentences and a link:

As an associate attorney with Miner Barnhill & Galland (fka Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland, founded by attorney Allison Davis) from 1993 to 2003, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases. While at the firm, Obama also worked on taxpayer-supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp. owned by Daniel Mahru and the now-indicted Democratic Party fundraiser Tony Rezko, who has raised a total of over $250,000 for Obama's various political campaigns.

Further information: Tony Rezko

Please add your comments below. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments

Interesting. What happened to the "slumlords" bit? Andyvphil (talk) 14:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
(excuse me for refactoring this after and edit conflict -- Scjessey (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC))

~~The name of the law firm certainly needs to be corrected.~~ I think the rest of it is okay as long as you omit the words "now-indicted" (per WP:RECENT), the phrase "who has raised a total of over $250,000 for Obama's various political campaigns" (per WP:WEIGHT and WP:RECENT), and the unnecessary extra Rezko link. Also, the first Sun-Times citation is inaccurately attributed to the Associated Press. I've changed the heading of this section because this is actually a proposed change masquerading as a correction. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Rezko isn't just "now-indicted." His federal felony trial started on March 14. The news has been eclipsed by this Wright controversy. Rezko has been under indictment since October 2006, more than 17 months, therefore defeating your WP:RECENT objection. WP:WEIGHT isn't violated because prior to this brief mention, the Rezko/Obama relationship isn't even mentioned. Obama has now admitted that there were periods when he was on the phone with Rezko every day. Like the Wright controversy, this one has been banished to satillite articles that no one will ever read. Kossack4Truth (talk) 14:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I withdraw my comment about the name of the law firm. It appears that the law firm is called "Miner, Barnhill and Galland" (see their website) so it would be completely wrong to make it something else just to alter search engine results. The issues surrounding Rezko are for the Tony Rezko article. Whether or not he is currently indicted is not important to this article because it is not a biographical detail and it violates WP:RECENT because the fact is transient. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The law firm is currently named Miner Barnhill & Galland because the notorious slumlords' attorney who founded it, Allison Davis, has recently retired. During the 10 years Obama worked there, it was called Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland. If you'd like to alter the proposed pair of new sentences to read "Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland (now renamed Miner Barnhill & Galland due to retirement of its senior partner, Allison Davis)," I would certainly agree. Efforts to divorce Obama from both Allison Davis and Tony Rezko in this article are not in the best interests of the Misplaced Pages project. Kossack4Truth (talk) 15:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it should say "Miner, Barnhill and Galland (fka Davis, Miner, Barnhill and Galland)" to follow the usual convention. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I have now made that change and added the name of the firm's founder, Allison Davis. See above. Obama's close association with an indicted fundraiser, who is currently on trial for federal felonies associated with political fundraising, is very important to this article, Scjessey. Leaving it out would be just another example of efforts to make a hagiography where a biography belongs. Kossack4Truth (talk) 15:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

No. That is simply not acceptable since it is adding details about other people to a biography. This would be better:

As an associate attorney with Miner, Barnhill and Galland (fka Davis, Miner, Barnhill and Galland) from 1993 to 2003, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases. While at the firm, Obama also worked on taxpayer-supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp. owned by Daniel Mahru and Democratic Party fundraiser Tony Rezko.

And that's it. That's all you would need to satisfy a neutral point of view. The links contained within the paragraph offer plenty of extra detail if the reader is sufficiently interested. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

conceivably the addition of something like "tainted democratic party fundraiser" would be a clearer presentation. that is, IF we add anything about Rezko at all. It think there is a big undue weight problem here. It doesn't matter how busy rezko's life is, or even how often he was on the phone with Obama five years ago. Those things do not confer "due weight." What would, if it existed, would be consistent RS analysis of the topic, consistent and continued to the point where it was an issue in Obama's 40-something year LIFE. Which again, does not exist. What does is exist is campaign reporting from 07 and 08, based on the events of 06 and after. So again you have two or three years of on-again-off-again reporting, all within the context of Obama's rising political fortunes. Its on the campaign page, where it belongs. (I added it there just like I added the Wright text here lol) 72.0.180.2 (talk) 21:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Both Hillary Clinton and John McCain have lengthy sections, with section headers, devoted to their controversies and scandals. Negative words appear. Here, we find none of that. It's sanitized and shrink-wrapped. Anything controversial or negative has been banished to a satellite article. The pattern just keeps repeating itself. Kossack4Truth (talk) 00:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure we are all very sorry that Obama has not yet had a Special Prosecutor appointed to investigate his actions as first spouse, or gotten involved in a Savings and Loan bribery scandal, but that lack of long-term controversy does not magically give more weight to Rev. Wright (an issue some argue is fundamentally mediated by the freedom of religion clause) or Tony Rezko (who is innocent until proven guilty in some jurisdictions). We mention Wright which I think is fine but may well fall to the recentism axe in the long run- regardless your notion that we need to balance length or negativity, would make sense if that balance existed in reality- but it don't. That "lack of balance" is a big part of how a black dude won 95% white Iowa, so I think its fine to "call attention" to it in our formatting (by not having a big controversy section), and its fine for us to ignore your theory that we should make this page uglier just because Obama has a higher moral record than some other politicians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.0.180.2 (talk) 01:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Could you point those out? Grsz 11 00:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd support the version Scjessey proposes, with the change of "Democratic Party fundraiser Tony Rezko" to "controversial Illinois businessman and political fundraiser Tony Rezko". "Democratic Party fundraiser" is inaccurate, since Rezko also raised money for Republicans (incl. George W. Bush). The phrase "controversial Illinois businessman" is in the article now under "Personal life". If we move it up to "Early life and career" we might not need to identify Rezko further in the "Personal life" section. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. Question on the weighting of his work. Obama only put in a few hours working on Rezmar cases while at DMB&G and it's getting the same amount of weight as nine years of working on civil rights and discrimination cases. --Bobblehead 02:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

None of his other clients have been indicted for political fundraising abuses. Kossack4Truth (talk) 02:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

A term such as "indicted" would be more appropriate than "controversial" when talking about Tony Rezko. Britney Spears is controversial. Tony Rezko is indicted. Innocent until proven guilty and all that, but close observers say he's going to prison. One of his co-conspirators is going to testify against him, and the feds also have wiretap evidence. The prosecutor is Patrick Fitzgerald, the same one who obtained a conviction against Scooter Libby. Here are 4,556 Google news links between Obama and Rezko. Here are 3,831 Google news links between Obama and the trial of Rezko. If Rezko were merely controversial, he wouldn't be on trial. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a reasonable point, but we should be careful that the wording doesn't suggest that Rezko was indicted when Obama worked for his company, or for any dealings that Obama had anything to do with. WP:BLP says, "Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association." To be accurate and in keeping with BLP, we'd probably have to say "Illinois businessman and political fundraiser Tony Rezko, who was later indicted for activities unrelated to Obama." But I worry that that's too wordy, and places undue weight on an association that isn't all that important to Obama's biography. It's important in the campaign, yes, but is his association with Rezko really so important in the man's life that it merits nearly as much verbiage as his mother gets? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

"... but we should be careful that the wording doesn't suggest that Rezko was indicted when Obama worked for his company ..." Yes, of course. That's why I believe we should use "now-indicted" to indicate that he wasn't yet indicted at that time.

"It's important in the campaign, yes, but is his association with Rezko really so important in the man's life that it merits nearly as much verbiage as his mother gets?" Yes, of course. Information about Obama's mother can be used in Early life and career of Barack Obama. Right now, there are two controversies surrounding Obama. Despite the fact that a four-sentence paragraph has been agreed upon for the Jeremiah Wright (reluctantly since half a loaf is better than none), that sec tion stuill sits at just two sentences. And there is still zero mention of Tony Rezko in the article mainspace. So we have two major controversies, which merit thousands of articles in the world's news sources, and they get a total of two sentences between them in this article. Kossack4Truth (talk) 03:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

(very) minor editing suggestion?

Is not one a lecturer on constitutional law, not of constitutional law? 67.163.141.14 (talk) 15:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

No. I believe that "of" is the correct usage (even though it sounds kinda weird). -- Scjessey (talk) 16:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you.....then perhaps the word "lecturer" should be capitalized to show his official academic title (then) and specialty?...Lecturer of Constitutional Law... Without that, I see usages such as this:

2. he is a lecturer in French"
synonyms: university teacher, college teacher, tutor, reader, instructor, academic, academician.

Thank You,

mark Kohut 67.163.141.14 (talk) 22:08, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The difficult thing is that when you say "he was a lecturer" you're describing his job in general terms, but when you say "he was a Lecturer" you're referring to a rank and title in the academic system. In terms of his title, Obama was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996, and a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004. But he was a "lecturer" for all that time.

As for "constitutional law" vs. "Constitutional Law", to me the former suggests a field of study while the latter suggests a specific course. I see usages of the lowercase around the web: "lecturer of business law", "lecturer of philosophy and aesthetics", "lecturer of fixed prosthodontics" (the last one being in reference to a Dr. Harry R. Potter — who knew?).

"A lecturer in" does get more Google hits than "a lecturer of", though that includes usages like "a lecturer in San Diego" or "began his career as a lecturer in 1847". More of the "lecturer of" usages seem to be referring to a specific field or department in academia. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Unprotect?

Do people think we can unprotect the page now, or would the unresolved issues (categorizing Obama's political history, etc.) bring us another edit war? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Heh. Looks like we both asked somewhat the same question, just different sections. I think we need to resolve the categorization of Obama's political history before the article can be moved back to semi-protected. --Bobblehead 01:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

lets figure out everything here first before we unprotect, so certain users can't come complain in the future... as far as voting record goes, I heard there was a difference opinion on 10 votes between him and Clinton- so I don't see why we are going to bother with adding that to the BLP (again campaign page people) 72.0.180.2 (talk) 01:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

"Obama: Most Liberal Senator In 2007". National Journal. Retrieved 2008-01-31.
The ADA claims that, "Since ADA's founding in 1947, ADA's Voting Records have served as the standard guideline measuring a legislator's political liberalism... Those Members of Congress considered moderates generally score between 40% and 60%." http://www.adaction.org/index.htm
Brian Ross (March 13 2008). "Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11". ABC News. Retrieved 2008-03-17. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
Andrew Sullivan. For The Record The Atlantic: The Daily Dish, March 16 2008. Retrieved on 2008-03-18
"Schedule Puts Obama in Miami During July '07 Wright Sermon". Fox News. 2008-03-17. Retrieved 2008-03-17. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
Brian Ross (2008-03-13). "Obama's Pastor:God Damn America". ABC News. Retrieved 2008-03-13. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
http://www.click2houston.com/news/15623728/detail.html
Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr.: Pastor inspires Obama's 'audacity' Manya A. Brachear. Chicago Tribune, January 21, 2007
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/us/politics/06obama.html?_r=2&sq=jeremiah%20and%20wright%20and%20obama&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&scp=2&adxnnlx=1200445297-z0UTB4Vat6RTK9/joNneeg&oref=login
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/obama/obama120407pr.html
For The Record Andrew Sullivan, The Atlantic: The Daily Dish, March 16, 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdJB-qkfUHc
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/14/jeremiah-wright-obamas-_n_91664.html
Barack Obama (March 18 2008). "Remarks by Barack Obama: 'A More Perfect Union'". The Christian Science Monitor. Retrieved 2008-03-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=65704
ABC News, B. Ross and A. Patel, March 19, 2008, http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4480868&page=1
Mark Steyn (March 15 2008). "Uncle Jeremiah". National Review. Retrieved 2008-03-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
Brian Ross (March 13 2008). "Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11". ABC News. Retrieved 2008-03-17. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
Andrew Sullivan. For The Record The Atlantic: The Daily Dish, March 16 2008. Retrieved on 2008-03-18
Barack Obama (March 18 2008). "Remarks by Barack Obama: 'A More Perfect Union'". The Christian Science Monitor. Retrieved 2008-03-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
Nedra Pickler, Matt Apuzzo (March 18, 2008). "Obama confronts racial division". The Associated Press. Retrieved 2008-03-26. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
"Mr. Obama's Profile in Courage". The New York Times. 2008-03-19. Retrieved 2008-03-19.
"Obama's minister's remarks won't fade". The Associated Press. March 21, 2008. Retrieved 2008-03-26. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
Brian Ross (March 13 2008). "Obama's Pastor: God Damn America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11". ABC News. Retrieved 2008-03-17. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
Andrew Sullivan. For The Record The Atlantic: The Daily Dish, March 16 2008. Retrieved on 2008-03-18
Barack Obama (March 18 2008). "Remarks by Barack Obama: 'A More Perfect Union'". The Christian Science Monitor. Retrieved 2008-03-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
^ Nedra Pickler, Matt Apuzzo (March 18, 2008). "Obama confronts racial division". The Associated Press. Retrieved 2008-03-26. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
"Mr. Obama's Profile in Courage". The New York Times. 2008-03-19. Retrieved 2008-03-19.
"Obama's minister's remarks won't fade". The Associated Press. March 21, 2008. Retrieved 2008-03-26. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
"Obama's racial problems transcend Wright". The Politico. March 18 2008. Retrieved 2008-03-18. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
"Law Graduate Obama Got His Start in Civil Rights Practice". Associated Press. International Herald Tribune. February 19 2007. Retrieved 2008-01-04. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
"Law Graduate Obama Got His Start in Civil Rights Practice". Associated Press. International Herald Tribune. February 19 2007. Retrieved 2008-01-04. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
"Obama and his Rezko ties". Associated Press. Chicago Sun-Times. April 23 2007. Retrieved 2008-03-30. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
Chris Fusco (March 16 2008). "Obama explains Rezko relationship to Sun-Times". Chicago Sun-Times. Retrieved 2008-03-16. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
"Law Graduate Obama Got His Start in Civil Rights Practice". Associated Press. International Herald Tribune. February 19 2007. Retrieved 2008-01-04. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
"Obama and his Rezko ties". Associated Press. Chicago Sun-Times. April 23 2007. Retrieved 2008-03-30. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
Chris Fusco (March 16 2008). "Obama explains Rezko relationship to Sun-Times". Chicago Sun-Times. Retrieved 2008-03-16. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

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