Misplaced Pages

Talk:History of Islam in southern Italy

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Elonka (talk | contribs) at 12:17, 2 April 2008 (White flag). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 12:17, 2 April 2008 by Elonka (talk | contribs) (White flag)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconIslam High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconItaly Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Italy on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ItalyWikipedia:WikiProject ItalyTemplate:WikiProject ItalyItaly
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconMilitary history
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history
B checklist
This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-class status:
  1. Referencing and citation: not checked
  2. Coverage and accuracy: not checked
  3. Structure: not checked
  4. Grammar and style: not checked
  5. Supporting materials: not checked
To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call:
  • | b1<!--Referencing and citation--> = <yes/no>
  • | b2<!--Coverage and accuracy   --> = <yes/no>
  • | b3<!--Structure               --> = <yes/no>
  • | b4<!--Grammar and style       --> = <yes/no>
  • | b5<!--Supporting materials    --> = <yes/no>
assessing the article against each criterion.
Additional information:
/ 
Note icon
This article is not currently associated with a task force. To tag it for one or more task forces, please add the task force codes from the template instructions to the template call.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconMiddle Ages Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconFormer countries
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconGreece Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Balcanic Muslims in Sicily

Recently, many Muslims from war-stricken Bosnia and Kosovo have tried to illegally enter the Mediterranean country. This line, in the section "Muslims today", is poor and not relevant in my opinion. Balcan Muslims entered Italy mostly from Apulia and than directed northwards, not affecting Sicily that much. It is also to state which degree of Muslim religiosity can be appointed about Albanian and Kosovo Muslims.--Dans-eng 23:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Over stating

There was never a muslim conquest of simply "Southern Italy". Sicily? yes. Small parts of mainland Italy? yes... but Naples, which is considered the unofficial capital of Southern Italy has never had a muslin conquest (read; Duchy of Naples).. so to say "southern italy" in general is an over statement and untrue. - Soprani 23:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't agree with that. "Southern Italy" is used here as a generic reference to a couple of lands which couldn't be defined more properly... would you prefer an article such as "History of Islam in Sicily, Calabria, southern Lazio, neighbourhood of Bari"? --Attilios (talk) 15:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

And I oppose the merger recently suggested. Srnec (talk) 18:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Note on sourcing

The page, like most, could use improved referencing and it does have "citation needed" tags here and there, but unless there is very specific beef, it hardly needs a citations tag at top. Srnec (talk) 00:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Opinions needed

Hi, a new article, Arab-Norman civilization was created today by PHG (talk · contribs). What do the editors here think of this topic? Is it worth its own article, should it be renamed, or should it be merged elsewhere, such as here or to the Norman conquest of southern Italy article? Or somewhere else? Comments requested at Talk:Arab-Norman civilization, thanks. --Elonka 10:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Intro

Here is the diff that shows the dispute over the current wording of the intro. I will go over each point one at a time.

  1. "Apulia and Calabria"
The problem is not so much "smallparts of" or "tips of", but "Apulia and Calabria", since there was a constant problem of semi-permanent camps and strongholds north of Calabria and west of Apulia, as in the famous one at Garigliano and lesser known ones like the one at Agropoli that supplied mercenaries to Docibilis I of Gaeta.
  1. "a brief interlude"
This wording is just not needed, it sounds minimising and it is not our job to minimse the import of these events, just to report them. This is why I replaced it with the statement "Though the Muslim presence was ephemeral on the peninsula and limited mostly to semi-permanent camps or strongholds, their rule in Sicily lasted almost two centuries (902–1091)." This captures the facts about the mainland (ephemeral) and notes that Sicily was ruled compeltely from 902 (Taormina conquered) until the last vestige of Muslim rule disappeared (Noto). It lets the reader decide how important or not 200 years is. We could date the Muslim period from the first conquest to the first loss of territory, or from the final conquest to the final loss of territory (as I did), or from some other option, but I think I chose the fairest one: doesn't give either side credit until they finished the job. By the way, 965 is just the start of Kalbid rule.
  1. "An area where the religion is particularly thin"
Not believable unless it can be cited that Islam is particularly thin in southern Italy as opposed to central or northern Italy or the islands. I captured the spirit with "The conquests of the Normans established Roman Catholicism firmly in the region, where Eastern Christianity had been prominent during the era of Islamic influence." Notice that the areas of Muslim dominance were largely Greek Christian and so the Normans brought Catholicism to prominence there.
  1. Final sentence cited to Archaeology.Stanford.edu
Redundant considering my version. Also, "historics" is not English, Sicily isn't part of the Italian peninsula, and the dates 965-1072 seem arbitrary, since Muslims ruled all of Sicily from 902 until 1061, began their conquest in 827, and lost their last stronghold in 1091.
  1. "Muslim control in terms of historics"
Meaningless in English. "Historics" is not good English and I don't know what it means for Muslim control to be short "in terms of" it.

For the above-cited reasons, I think my version is preferable. Srnec (talk) 04:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Dispute

Folks, the edit-warring and related edit summaries on this article are embarrassing. Referring to each other with words like "vandalism" and "crap" and "trolling"?? I thought better of both of you. Can you please stop with the reverting, and just talk about what it is exactly that you want to do with this article? --Elonka 12:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

  1. Haddad (1999), pg. 608
Categories: