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Barack Obama

Stifle notified a number of people active in the current edit war, but I notified HailFire, User:Jersyko, and Steve Dufour as well.--Bobblehead 17:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Users notified by Stifle: Davidp, Tvoz, Ronaldomundo, Belfunk, Scjessey, Kossack4Truth, Andyvphil, Grsz11. --Bobblehead 18:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Featured Article Review #1: January 2007.

Featured Article Review #2: July 2007.

• Fails criterion 1 (e) in that the article is not stable and has required full protection on a number of occasions. Stifle (talk) 17:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The stability criterion is:

1 (e) "Stable" means that the article is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and that its content does not change significantly from day to day, except for edits made in response to the featured article process.

I do not support FAR of an otherwise fine article only because it has had to be protected due to normal and natural fallout from the election cycle. FAR is not dispute resolution. Unless the article has other significant issues, I suggest closure or withdrawal of this FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• There is obviously going to be some dispute on a controversial topic such as a major election candidate, and it is likely to be protected many times by nature of the topic. I agree with SandyGeorgia on this one. I would support keeping this as a FA at the moment. Yahel Guhan 17:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not support the Barack Obama page as a featured article given the dispute surrounding N/POV. A group of editors is vigorously protecting this article from information that is noteworthy but that is deemed negative by those editors. A great deal of discussion has taken place on the Talk page regarding these issues. While some biased edits are certainly coming from editors who seem to insist on forcefully discrediting Obama, the pendulum has swung entirely in the direction of fan-like protectionism, which is undermining Misplaced Pages principles. --Davidp (talk) 17:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There was no mention of POV issues (1d) in the FAR submission, and they haven't been documented here; the submission mentioned only 1e, stability. Pls clarify with specific POV issues warranting review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There is currently an edit war going on over whether or not a classification of Barack Obama as a liberal in the Senate career section is appropriate and whether or not there should be a long description of Jeremiah Wright's controversial comments and their impact upon his presidential campaign is required in the presidential campaign section, or if a summary of the controversy in line with WP:SS is appropriate. Here's a diff that shows fairly well the content that some feel is missing, while some feel is WP:UNDUE. --Bobblehead 17:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a problem... As Sandy noted, FAR is not dispute resolution. Removing this one from the list over some edit warring seems to be pushing it. This nomination seems clearly to be a proxy for other more reasonable means of dispute resolution, which it should NOT be. Work it out at RFC or on the talk page, but not here... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Just a note, Stifle is not involved in the current edit war and only came to the article because I requested full protection to force a ceasefire. --Bobblehead 18:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Has an RFC or any other dispute resolution method been tried? This situation is going to be ongoing during the election cycle; we don't defeature an article over expected minor differences, and FAR is not dispute resolution. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

An RFC is currently in progress on the labeling but has only generated two serious responses since it was started. Which I believe was missed in all the other activity on the talk page. --Bobblehead 19:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• Additions that are reverted are POV, as well as go against the policy on article size, as this article is well over the desired size limit. Detailed additions that are added are inappropriate when they are throughly covered elsewhere (in other articles). A FAR is way out of line here. Grsz 11 19:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• First, WP:SIZE isn't policy; it's a guideline. Second, the article is very well within WP:SIZE (even with the additions linked above, it was still at only 40KB readable prose, well under the 50 KB readable prose max suggested guideline, which is often passed in featured articles). Arguing to keep that text out based on size isn't gonna fly. At any rate, that discussion belongs in an RFC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• I think the article is in excellent condition at the moment, and easily worthy of FA status; however, the ongoing edit war caused by a small group of biased editors who wish to specifically highlight or fabricate criticism of Obama has made the article somewhat unstable. Consensus building has failed, because this group of editors simply ignore the outcome of any meaningful discussions and do their own thing anyway. Sadly, I don't feel I can recommend FA status on this basis. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
• Withdraw Nomination - This isn't cleanup or dispute resolution. And instability is when the definition of a planet is changed and the definition of a planet articles needs a massive rewrite. Day to day additions and copyediting for the political season doesn't need rewriting of the whole article but the paragraph in question. There doesn't seem to be massive instability, and so it shouldn't be brought here. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

  I don't know if this is a request or otherwise, but I decline to withdraw the nomination. Stifle (talk) 12:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Renomination There is indeed a content dispute going on about this article. The idea that this means it is inappropriate to immediately reconsider this article's FA status is simply bizarre. Many of the criteria for FA status are about content, not form. Misplaced Pages's "core" content policies include WP:NPOV, which this article currently largely ignores, and if its content fails NPOV it cannot be an FA.

Just because Stifle chose to specify criterion 1(e) in his nom is no reason to ignore the fact that this article fails, miserably, criteria 1(b) and 1(d), as follows:

1. It is well-written, comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and stable.

• (b) "Comprehensive" means that the article does not neglect major facts and details.
• (d) "Neutral" means that the article presents views fairly and without bias.

Background information: Obama, after three years working to coordinate the politics of black churches in Chicago, made an unforced choice to put aside his religious skepticism and join a church whose linked Black Liberation theology and active politics, exemplified by its pastor, then of 16 years in that post, was very familar to him. And he's remained a faithful congregant for 20 years while that politics has been preached from the pulpet and reflected in encomiums from the pastor and the church's publications for such as Louis Farrakan, etc.

This content is missing from the article. For that reason, among others, we have a content dispute. Yes, the POV that this is a significant part of Obama's bio is a POV. But NPOV policy does not require that we eschew content that is POV. It requires exactly the opposite. It requires that all significant POV be represented. And given the severe hit Obama has taken in the polls it's pretty clear that the POV that Wright's politics is significant is not a WP:FRINGE POV. So... if it's not there Barack Obama fails NPOV. And if it fails NPOV we must either fix that or withdraw the FA designation. QED.

As if that weren't enough, there is a refusal to attempt to reflect the attempts of reliable sources to place Obama's politics on the political spectrum. Now, Obama has said that such political labeling is "old politics", but there is another POV, namely that he is intentionally obscuring his politics because those politics, correctly perceived, will not be palatable to sections of the electorate. Again, NPOV requires that both POV be represented. The latter is not in the article. If it's not there Barack Obama fails NPOV. And if it fails NPOV we must either fix that or withdraw the FA designation. Again, QED. Andyvphil (talk) 22:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, that's a legitimate POV dipute that wasn't spelled out originally, and if it remains unaddressed and remains an issue, than a FAR makes sense. But, before coming to FAR, have you all allowed enough time for other dispute resolution measures, for example, RFC? FAR is not dispute resolution. (It's hard to imagine why such text isn't just incorporated considering its importance, but has that been addressed through other means, before coming to FAR?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah that's all well and good, but unfortunately it is also complete nonsense. Andy says, "and given the severe hit Obama has taken in the polls it's pretty clear that the POV that Wright's politics is significant..." Except that isn't true at all. Today's poll indicates that Obama is still leading in the polls. Although neck and neck with Clinton, he is polling as beating McCain when Clinton is not. This poll was conducted specifically to see what impact the Jeremiah Wright affair had, and it turns out that he has lost a tiny bit of ground with Republicans, and lost almost nothing with Democrats. In otherwords, the Jeremiah Wright issue was not significant at all. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Please don't argue politics on the FAR; the question here is whether the FAR is necessary or other means of dispute resolution have been pursued. Clearly there is a POV dispute, now that more complete info has been posted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with that assessment. True we should not argue politics on the FAR, but we should not dismiss statistical polling analysis, as simple politics. If you really think the Wright issue rises to the level of POV dispute, and isn't just basic misleading and tendentious editing, then you need to look at those polls and the others and see for yourself whether it has has any affect on the public (as opposed to the media which WP is biased towards because thats where our sources generally come from) the polls show no effect, and yet our text DOES have a mention of this controversy, just not a LONG one which is what some people want. You could argue that the polling data supports TOTAL EXCLUSION of the Wright issue. However no one is arguing for that because it violates undue weight, specifically that the issue is due some weight. And consensus has supported that version, the hue and cry of certain notorious editors aside. It has mention, and I think the issue is closed in the minds of most. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 00:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Another long answer about political differences and views, with no discussion of dispute resolution steps tried. We're a long ways from November, and FAR is not dispute resolution. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

after being the initiator of two dispute resolution processi on Obama Campaign 08; I can tell you that they are not as helpful as you would hope. Neither me nor the other disagreeing party ended up using the suggestions from a 3-o request, and my plea for help on the BLP noticeboard has been entirely vacant of admin comments since it was posted. So I think many admins are simply waiting until 2008 is over before touching these articles. That being said- any help would be nice because as I can verify when I got mis-reported for 3rr, blocked for 31 hours, and then unblocked on a BLP exception- even the Dispute Resolution process is yielding a pretty scattershot consensus right now. I support dispute resolution and agree that maybe FAR is not the best venue for these concerns, but at the same time perhaps Dispute Resolution needs more teeth to handle what is happening on some pages lately. I would also look at who is accepting policy and who is abusing it.72.0.180.2 (talk) 06:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Neutral "Featured Article" has no meaning to me. I don't care if this label is applied to Senator Obama's article or not. The editors who are editing the article hoping to influence the election one way or the other would do much better to spend their time volunteering for one campaign or the other. Steve Dufour (talk) 11:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Just to add another perspective, I'm sharing this quality assessment that I recently discovered on the web. I'm still hopeful for renewed progess toward consensus through the current RfC, and I encourage editors concerned about this BLP's placement or non-placement of Sen. Obama on a "political spectrum" to return their focus to that still open discussion. That said, I would agree with 72's perception that the apparent hands-off approach of at least some of Misplaced Pages's more experienced editors has made progress slow going. It's the main reason that I too recently proposed nominating this article for a third featured article review. --HailFire (talk) 17:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment, I believe this is one of the finest political figure articles on Misplaced Pages. One or two unresolved content disputes do not make an article instable. I agree with Sandy Georgia's statement that FAR is not dispute resolution. · jersyko talk 17:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm taking this off my watchlist, as it's quite clearly merely a content dispute (one that I don't have the time or inclination to participate in at the moment). I suggest closure of this FAR and use of dispute resolution. · jersyko talk 03:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment I agree with Jersyko and others that although there have been a few content disputes, this high-profile article overall has remained quite stable and has been so for a long time which is a feat, given the attraction the article has to politically-motivated attacks. It continues to be deserving of its FA status. Tvoz |talk 18:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The original nomination was wrongheaded, so much so that I'm not entirely convinced that its intent was not to fail, poisoning the well for a later attempt and providing another argument for retaining the article's current status as an annex of the Obama campaign site. The "stability" of the article is the problem, rather than the opposite. The fact that the article has FA status (which is a scandal, but understandable since the pro-Obama claque active in controlling the article can be expected to, and has, weighed in en masse on any nomination and FAR) has been used repeatedly as an argument for the proposition that it cannot possibly have NPOV problems, and most recently as an argument for repeatedly deleting the POV template from the article head despite the many allegations of POV on the discussion page (and here) and in contravention of the instruction in the template that it should not be removed while the discussion is taking place.

SandyGeorgia's naive observation that "It's hard to imagine why such text isn't just incorporated considering its importance..." has been met by denials that the issue is of any importance at all. Never mind the assertions that any mention of ratings in the "Senate Career" section is some kind of a smear. The claque is entrenched and prepared to be unreasonable and I see nothing in the "dispute resolution" process that is going to result in NPOV making a beachhead in the article. But there is no reason to wait interminably for some other process to complete before proceeding here. The article doesn't deserve FA but has it. The duty of a neutral editor in this process is to try to improve it and if (when) that proves impossible remove the designation. So, let's do it, if we can. Andyvphil (talk) 23:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yet your idea of making this article neutral consists of your own POV, like here and here. Several perfectly acceptable alternatives have been proposed, which offer absolutely no comments either way on the "controversy", yet you still insist that you are right. Grsz 11 00:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

nb: Grsz11's idea of NPOV is this edit, removing from the section of the article on Obama's Senate career info on the National Journal and ADA ratings of Barack Obama's Senate career, as well as Obama's comment in response to the former that ideological labels are “old politics". Grsz11's comment explaining this act of censorship is "rmv POV edit. source didnt work. is this mentioned on Clinton's article?". In fact both the NJ rating and the ADA ratings are mentioned in Clinton's article, all five citations in the deleted material work, and what is POV about mentioning a rating significant enough to prompt a reply from Obama, including that reply, is beyond my comprehension. If he thought the ratings I added (ADA) or restored (NJ) were unrepresentative, he could add more. Instead it is demanded that a treatment of ratings acceptable to the pro-Obama claque be produced and agreed upon before the subject be mentioned at all,. which agreement is indefinately withheld, keeping the article free of any mention of the subject indefinately, which is clearly the desired result.

Also, WP:NPOV:

All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected on all articles, and of all article editors.

It's not my idea that adding POV different than Obama's is what is necessary for NPOV. It's in policy. Non-negotiable policy, in fact. Andyvphil (talk) 12:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment If an article is the subject of an ongoing edit war, it fails FA criteria, regardless of who's in the right. If some users or parties are clearly in the wrong (or are disruptively editing), then admins should consider blocking. I don't see what's so hard about that. - Chardish (talk) 06:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree. I suggest that this FAR remain open for at least one week after the expiration of full protection so that our current problems with FACR 1(e) can be addressed under the watchful eye of editors with broader experience in managing the FAR process and assessing FA status across all of Misplaced Pages. --HailFire (talk) 06:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

If it's not hard, tell us: Are they? Am I? And if it fails FA criteria, in your opinion, when can we move on to the next stage? Andyvphil (talk) 13:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As I said on the article talk page a while ago, FAR is intended to be a deliberative process, and we don't just "move on to the next stage". FAR is not dispute resolution, and by the time this comes up for "keep" or "remove" voting, your content dispute will likely be yesterday's stale headlines, and FAR reviewers are not likely to engage in that dispute. Dispute resolution is a better means of addressing the issue. Further, whether or not the article carries a little featured star won't solve your differences, so FAR isn't the best place to bring them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem with Barack Obama is not a content dispute about whether or not to give the Wright connection the attention it deserves, or whether to mention the National Journal's characterization of his voting record as the most liberal in the Senate and his near-perfect (54 of 55) 3-year ADA record. These are merely symptoms of the control over content excercised by the resident pro-Obama claque, and that shows no sign of becoming yesterday's headline. This article fails FA criteria 1(b) and 1(d) and that shows no sign of changing. The time to remove FA status was when it failed the criteria. I repeat: can we get on with it? If not, why not? What are we waiting for? Andyvphil (talk) 03:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment - If I could just chime in here.... It would be hypocritical of me to suggest that this article be delisted while I am helping editors get John McCain to FA status, but I do notice some problems with the ongoing dispute. I do not feel that the article should be delisted as of now, but would like to comment on the ongoing situation; call it an outsiders prospective :)

• First, I only check in on this article every once in a while, and both of the last times I did it has been fully protected. That can be somewhat of a problem when passing the stablity criterion.
• Secondly, I do feel that Jeremiah Wright's comments (and that's putting it nicely :) ) should be included, or at least more of a mention of them than what is currently being presented. I support this position for four reasons: 1) Although he has sort of begun to bounce back in polls, it hurt his campaign hard; he dropped in the polls sharply after this story broke; 2) his story on knowing about the comments changed, wherein he first said he never heard them, and then said, "Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes."; 3) he has largely denounced the comments, but has not denounced the pastor; and 4) he made a speech on race solely because of the incident(s).
• Third, As we have been doing with John McCain, the major detail can go in seperate subarticles (in this case Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008) but there is usually a mention in the main article; that should definitely be done here. This was (and still is) a big part of Barack Obama's campaign, like it or not, and it is only NPOV to include more than what is already written about Wright in the section. Happyme22 (talk) 16:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

it bothers me that all your reasons for inclusion are examples of Original Research. You say you want more but you can't articulate a reason why. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 07:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Where's the hypocrisy? I'm presuming your help includes letting the McCainiacs know they can't have it all their own way. Delisting Obama should be a salutary lesson and is probably a necessary step on getting Obama back to where it deserves FA. If (First, Second and Third) it doesn't meet FA criteria, why don't you think it should be delisted? Andyvphil (talk) 03:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

• Withdraw nomination. This article fails both the WP:NPOV test and the stability test. Compare it with the articles about George W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, John McCain and other recent presidents and presidential candidates. Each has entire sections devoted to criticism and controversy, even though they are no longer titled, "Criticism and Controversy." Hundreds of words are allotted to the substantial criticism from the other side of the the political spectrum that each of them has attracted. Here, there is no criticism. It is not allowed. It is banished to satellite articles, and it's been proven that virtually no one reads these satellite articles. The Obama biography is completely sanitized and shrink-wrapped. Never is heard a discouraging word. It reads as though it was written by Obama's campaign staff despite two major controversies (Wright and Rezko) and thousands of news articles and opinion columns about these controversies. Here are the criteria:

1. It is well-written, comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and stable.

• (b) "Comprehensive" means that the article does not neglect major facts and details.
• (d) "Neutral" means that the article presents views fairly and without bias.

This article fails. It deserves to fail. Andy and I will continue to insist on NPOV. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Again, can you provide section links to those sections in the other articles, atleast so they can be compared. I just did a quick search of Clinton and the word "criticized" only comes up in the Lewinsky section, and to say that she was "criticized by some Democrats for spending too much on a one-sided contest" for her 2006 reelection. The McCain Lobbyistgate is given one sentence under the 2008 campaign section, and the only other time "criticized" is used, is a single phrase about his actions in the Senate Commerce Committee. Grsz 11 13:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I am confused about this as well. The only article that has a "criticism section" out of the BLPs listed by Kossack4Truth above is George W. Bush (who warrants his own special criticism page, obviously). This is just more anti-candidate BS, to be frank. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't play "confused" Scjessey there is a section titled, "Controversy over military service and awards" for John Kerry and very extensive sections titled "Whitewater and other investigations" and "Lewinsky scandal" for Hillary Clinton while Obama has sycophantic praise like, "An October 2005 article in the British journal New Statesman listed Obama as one of "10 people who could change the world, the only politician included on the list." TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)