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Talk:Roots of anti-Semitism

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I don't understand why this page exists. It seems to be almost an exact copy of the Misplaced Pages article Anti-Semitism. RK

It's a selection of the bits of that article relating to the causes of anti-Semitism. There's obviously a lot more that can be said about anti-Semitism than merely how it is caused. My idea was that this entry could focus in on the question of what causes anti-Semitism, allowing the anti-Semitism entry to focus on other issues, such as consequences of anti-Semitism, actions taken to combat anti-Semitism, and differences in anti-Semitism around the world. In a similar way the Christianity and anti-Semitism article avoids the need for either article to spend pages disecting the responsibility and reaction of Christianity. I'll add to this entry later as well. Martin

Footnote

The footnote didn't seem to work, even though Jayjg did what it says to do in Misplaced Pages:Cite sources, so I've changed it to the author and date in parenthesis after the sentence. If anyone can work out how to make the footnote thing function, by all means change it back. SlimVirgin 21:17, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean it didn't work? It worked fine for me. Also, you lost the page numbers, p. 118, pp. 210-216. Jayjg 21:18, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Then it must be my browser. All I could see was {{fnb/1}} at the bottom and nothing in the text, though I could see it when I edited the page. But if it's showing up right for you, I'll revert. Sorry. SlimVirgin 21:29, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks to you both. El_C 03:19, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for supplying the reference. You always come up with very good academic references. Sorry about the footnote confusion. I'm using the latest Mac operating system and currently using the latest Netscape, but I don't see these footnotes for some reason, though I can see them on other pages. It's all part of the fun of being a Mac user. ;-) SlimVirgin 03:30, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
And thanks to both of you just for being yourselves. ;-) Jayjg 03:58, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ah, you think different, I see. :p El_C 03:33, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Chip Berlet Chart

To any interested editors - there is a conversation currently occurring on the Chip Berlet talk page regarding the appropriateness of including Mr. Berlet's chart on this page. Berlet is a highly partisan political source, and as such it is contended that using his material for purposes other than to represent his personal opinions is inappropriate per WP:RS - "Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution. An extreme political website should never be used as a source for Misplaced Pages except in articles discussing the opinions of that organization or the opinions of a larger like-minded group." Factual and POV problems within the chart have also raised the issue of whether it rises to the level of encyclopedia-quality material for this article. Interested persons are invited to view the discussion here and to post any thoughts relating to its presence in this article under this message on the current talk page. Thanks! Rangerdude 07:26, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

By "extreme political website," we mean groups like Stormfront, not PRA. SlimVirgin 07:34, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
That's an arbitrary attempt to define a wikipedia guideline that makes no such specification. Your own personal definition of what constitutes "extreme" is of no determinant value. Misplaced Pages's provisions on source reliability are specific, however, in its application to "Partisan political and religious sources," which are discouraged in their own right. Berlet is indisputably a partisan political source, and PRA is very reasonably defined as hailing from the left wing extreme of the political spectrum. That indicates a better source should probably be used instead. Rangerdude 09:05, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
My comment on the chart is on Talk:Chip Berlet (diff). El_C 08:19, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

El C - thanks for your comments on this subject. I disagree wholly in your characterization of Berlet as a "scholarly" opinion though. I do not see any scholarly credentials affiliated with Chip Berlet's name. I am unaware that he has any higher degrees or academic accredation in any social science field, and his major institutional affiliations are all with partisan political groups. As such his description is of no more credibility than your average run of the mill political activist, or perhaps an op-ed commentator at most. It's certainly not the product of an accredited political scientist, sociologist, or historian though, and as I have noted on the other talk page this circumstance shows in the simplistic and erronious nature of the chart. Both the unaccredited and undistinguished nature of the chart and the fact that it hails from an extremely partisan political source make it unencyclopedic for this particular article. In my view, the chart belongs as nothing more than a representation of Chip Berlet's personal opinions on the article about Chip Berlet. In the case of this article, we should seek a substitute or alternative and additional material on the subject of antisemitism from an accredited scholarly source with more neutral, or at least less partisan, political leanings. Rangerdude 09:05, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Response in the section bellow. El_C 22:19, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The Chart is published on the PRA website. I claim no scholarly credentials, but I write for scholarly and academic publications, and have been through peer review in a sociology journal. I also do peer review of articles for a socioloy journal. I write chapters in academic books, lecture in college classooms, and have been invited to present papers at the conferences of the American Sociological Association and International Sociological Association. Of course, Rangerdude knows all this, since he just edited my Wiki page bio to include more criticism of my work. So unless you want to argue that Eric Hoffer was just a dockworker with a POV attitude problem, please back off.--Cberlet 13:19, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The above editor is reminded of both Misplaced Pages's autobiography policy and a general tendency of other editors to frown upon persons who promote their own material here. A quick review of Mr. Berlet's published work reveals that the majority of his material that has been published outside of his own outfit at PRA appears in the form of Op-Ed submissions to various newspapers and contributions to highly partisan political magazines on the far left such as Mother Jones, the SPLC's Intelligence Report, and High Times. His "lectures" at college campuses appear to individual guest visits and presentations to various university classrooms and campus activism seminars - a qualification that could also be claimed by such illustrious "scholarly" speakers as Jane Fonda, Michael Moore, and Jesse Jackson. A review of his biography also produces no evidence that Mr. Berlet holds any scholarly qualifications from an accredited institution of higher learning. Indeed, I can find no evidence that he even possesses so much as bachelor's degree - or any form of higher education for that matter - except for a 3 year stint at the University of Denver in the 1970's, from which he did not graduate. I find no evidence of him ever holding a regular faculty position at an accredited university or even a high school for that matter. His claimed "peer review" contribution to an academic journal appears to consist of a single article in a publication calling itself "The Politics of Social Inequality Volume 9" - an obscure narrow-focus journal of no mainstream distinction that appears to be devoted entirely to minority and homosexual political causes on the political left. In short, I have yet to see anything indicating that Mr. Berlet has any genuine recognized scholarly credentials or anything establishing him as a recognized academic expert on the subject of anti-semitism. As such, and in light of his political partisanship, his chart simply does not rise to the level of source reliability required for this encyclopedia. Rangerdude 20:25, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Berlet is a noted researcher and journalist on the topic. -Willmcw 20:35, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
He's also an extreme political partisan (see WP:RS) and has no demonstrated scholarly credentials on the topic. Treating him as anything more than a partisan political activist with an interest in this particular issue (and representing his work as opinions to that end accordingly) is inappropriate per the reliable sources provisions mentioned above. Rangerdude 20:57, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
He writes for scholarly journals, as well as articles that other journalists read to learn about this stuff. He's highly regarded. SlimVirgin 21:03, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Of which political party is he an "extreme political partisan"? Can we only quote material in Misplaced Pages from Ph.D.s? Neither of those criticisms seem to be relevant here. -Willmcw 21:07, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Slim - I've only seen one allegedly "peer reviewed" journal article to his name (discussed above), and it isn't much of one at that. Please provide evidence of accredited scholarly credentials such as a degree or an academic position. Otherwise he is nothing more than an opinionated activist. Rangerdude 21:09, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
He's an investigative journalist working for a research organization that is much used by other journalists, and you can find a list of some of his articles on Chip Berlet. Chip and PRA are both the kind of source regarded as reputable and credible for Misplaced Pages articles. SlimVirgin 01:55, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Scholarly citations

I have ~5 minutes so I must be brief. A small sample where Chip Berlet is cited in scholarly sources:

  • Marketing the Marriage ‘Solution’: Misplaced Simplicity in the Politics of Fatherhood. 2001 -… S Coltrane - Sociological Perspectives, Volume 44, Number 4, pages 387–418. -- http://dx.doi.org/10.1525/sop.2001.44.4.387
  • Anti-Gay Politics Online: A Study of Sexuality and Stigma on National Websites JM Irvine - Sexuality Research and Social Policy Journal of NSRC, 2005 - Journal of NSRC Sexuality Research and Social Policy, Vol. 2, Issue 1, pp. 1-74, online ISSN 1553-6610. -- http://dx.doi.org/10.1525/srsp.2005.2.1.3
  • Militias at the Millenium:. A Test of Smelser's Theory of Collective Behavior SC Weeber, DG Rodeheaver - The Sociological Quarterly, Volume 44, Number 2, pages 181–204. The Midwest Sociological Society. -- http://dx.doi.org/10.1525/tsq.2003.44.2.181

I'm seeing many fold more citations, but I'm writing in hatse; largely copied this from a shcolarly database, sorry if the format appears odd. El_C 22:19, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

El_C - thanks for the links, but political activist groups like Chip Berlet's are "cited" all the time by academics, be they liberal or conservative. That doesn't make them academically accredited scholars though. Nor does being quoted in an article on "gender studies" make one an expert in the history of anti-semitism. Rangerdude 23:05, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
RD, are you saying that we can't quote non-scholars on Misplaced Pages articles? I don't understand the criteria you are asserting. Are academic credentials the only test of expertise? Thanks, -Willmcw 23:18, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Your repeated straw man misconstructions of my request aside, all I am saying is that we should follow WP:RS. WP:RS explicitly discourages the use of partisan political sources on wikipedia for anything other than representing their opinions. Mr. Berlet is indisputably a partisan political source, and as he has no scholarly accredation that especially merits the use of his material on this page, his chart should be removed on the grounds that it is a partisan political source discouraged by WP:RS, or altered in a manner to reflect the fact that it represents only his opinion. Rangerdude 23:29, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

What counts as reputable?

WP:RS does not require scholarly credentials. Can you point to exactly what part of that guideline you are referring to? And of which political party is he an "extreme political partisan"? Thanks, -Willmcw 23:45, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
"partisan n. A fervent, sometimes militant supporter or proponent of a party, cause, faction, person, or idea." - American Heritage Dictionary. Rangerdude 05:31, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Glad to help, Rangerdude. Note that these citations pertain to Chip Berlet's works. El_C 00:52, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
RD, WP:RS is just a guideline. The policy page that talks about sources is Misplaced Pages:No original research. Chip is an investigative journalist used by other journalists for their research, and is highly regarded as such. I've also seen him around Misplaced Pages making a real effort (in a few cases, more of an effort that I would have made) to be fair to people he disagrees with politically. He's definitely a credible source for WP and has been used as such in several articles. SlimVirgin 02:00, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Slim - And as a general rule guidelines should be followed. Simply stating but "I'm friends with that author and consider him to be a good guy" is not sufficient as a basis to disregard a guideline when his material clearly contradicts it. Once again you are reminded to set aside your biasing personal allegiances with other editors where they conflict with matters of article content. Rangerdude 05:31, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

RD, which part of the guideline are you referring to exactly? SlimVirgin 05:33, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
The one I quoted previously: "Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution. An extreme political website should never be used as a source for Misplaced Pages except in articles discussing the opinions of that organization or the opinions of a larger like-minded group." Mr. Berlet is a partisan political source. Rangerdude 06:35, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I, however, challenge that the use of the term extreme is... well, extreme and misdirected here. El_C 06:42, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I guess we'll have to disagree on that. Everything I've read about Mr. Berlet indicates that he hails from the far left of the political spectrum placing his politics well outside the mainstream, hence my consideration of him as an extreme source. I'd imagine that this understanding of the word "extreme" is fairly common and if considered along side the full distribution of political opinions in the public at large, Mr. Berlet would fall squarely on the tail, a good distance removed from the centerpoint and the population's mean. While I suppose a person sharing his perspective, or perhaps having a different concept of the term, may dispute his extremity it is still difficult to argue that Berlet is not a partisan political source, which is also discouraged. In either case it is a safe characterization that Mr. Berlet is very far removed from being a neutral source, thus his use here should be governed by due caution. One solution to this problem could be adding wording that indicates that the chart is an opinion of Mr. Berlet, himself a controversial source. Rangerdude 07:02, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
PRA is not the kind of organization any of our guidelines is trying to stop us from using, and I'm certain of this because I've been involved in drafting a lot of the information about sources and original research. That sentence was added to make sure websites like the one run by Stormfront, which is a political movement, not a research organization, could only be used as primary sources about themselves. But PRA is a research group and Berlet is a published journalist and author. WP:NOR is policy so what it says about sourcing takes precedence over guidelines. WP:NOR#What_counts_as_a_reputable_publication? says: "A magazine or press release self-published by a very extreme political or religious group would often not be regarded as "reputable". For example, Misplaced Pages would not rely only on an article in a Socialist Workers' Party magazine to publish a statement about President Bush being gay." This clearly doesn't have in mind the type of research group Chip works for. You may find PRA extreme, but it's not a political or religious group, party, or movement. SlimVirgin 07:12, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Once again, Slim you are not the arbiter of which "extreme" groups WP's guidelines apply to or not. Whether you drafted other WP information on original research or not is irrelevant, as the issue here is only what the guidelines do and do not say. If it was added to exclude only Stormfront-style groups it should've said so. But it does not - it says only "extreme political sources" without any special qualifications or exemptions, and that means sources on both the far right and far left. PRA and Berlet are very reasonably categorized as hailing from the far left, and while they are entitled to take that view, wikipedia should also treat them with caution as the guideline directs both of extreme sources AND of any partisan source. And you say that PRA - as in Political Research Associates - is not a political group? Please. PRA is as political as they come and about as far left as they get where liberal thinktanks are concerned. Dressing it up denials of its strong leftist bent and pseudo-academic attributes is fooling nobody. PRA is loved among the far left and despised among persons in both the middle and the right for a reason, and that reason is the strong tilt of its political leanings. Curiously your example of the Socialist Worker's Party does little to help your case as Mr. Berlet's own biography proudly states that he has worked on behalf of this very same extremist group! Rangerdude 07:30, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I'm clearly getting nowhere here, so I'll stop now. I've told you that Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources is a guideline, not policy, and that WP:NOR is policy and therefore takes priority. As you said yourself, it's what the page actually says that matters, and WP:NOR actually says nothing that would exclude Chip or PRA, and I don't think you'll find much support in Misplaced Pages for your argument. If we were to exclude all sources who showed political leanings, we'd be decimated overnight. SlimVirgin 07:46, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Slim - Nothing you've quoted from NOR contradicts what I've quoted from WP:RS. In fact the section you cite giving the Socialist Worker's Party as an example of an extreme source actually seems to solidify my case against Mr. Berlet, as his biography openly boasts that he has done work with that group! If the Socialist Workers Party is not a reputable source as the section you quote states, would not the same be true of political activists who openly and proudly align with the Socialist Workers Party and dozens of other equally extremist organizations? Are you truly so blinded by your personal biases that you cannot even see how your own example applies against what you purport? I would hate to think as much, but my experience with you tells me that personal allegiances to other editors run strong in your decisions here, leaving me to conclude that this must be the case. Rangerdude 21:49, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, it seems we are at an impass, Rangerdude. I still feel you are missing the point and thrust of my argument. The way I see it, following Misplaced Pages policy, you need to bring forward some evidence demonstrating that the "scholarly community" (or significant portions therein) views him as such. You can't simply decide that they do, seemingly on a whim. That, in my opinion, counts as original research. The caution notice you outline needs to be based on something a lot more concerete, more representative of pertinent branches of social-scientific, modern academia (as opposed to intereditorially, here on the wiki). El_C 07:52, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
El C - I believe you've got the burden of proof reversed in this situation. The way I see it that burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that Mr. Berlet's material rises to the level of reputability and scholarship necessary to justify its inclusion in an encyclopedia. That he is a partisan political source is difficult to dispute, and the way that guideline reads seems to imply that some extraordinary characteristic about Mr. Berlet would have to exist to justify including him in spite it. Showing him to be a credentialed expert of high reputation, for example, might suffice, yet as this discussion has revealed Mr. Berlet has absolutely no scholarly credentials such as a degree from an accredited university - not even a common bachelor's degree - and holds no position of recognized expertise or authority in the fields that pertain to this article. The most anybody's been able to show about him is a single purportedly "peer reviewed" article in an obscure narrow-focused political journal, dozens of political rants in PRA's in-house publications and other political publications on the far left that share PRA's views, and a couple of second source references to those same political articles. In terms of establishing scholarly credentials, that sort of stuff is truly grasping at straws. Rangerdude 21:49, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense. Cberlet's material has clearly been shown to be encyclopedic, and you have completely failed in showing it is not. Jayjg 22:07, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Wagner & Hitler

"German antiquity and Wagner's tales of Teutonic superheroes drove Hitler's fantasies of a Germanic state. He would later transfer romanticized notions of Norse epics and the Middle Ages onto National Socialism."
"Aryan models of German manhood such as Siegfried and Lohengrin came to inspire a cult of ritual and make-believe within the Third Reich that seems like nothing so much as arrested adolescent development on a monumental scale. With secret codes and runic (ancient German alphabet) symbols, mystical rites (such as the passing of the Blood Flag), and oaths of loyalty, along with innumerable badges, costumes, and greetings, the Third Reich exceeded the customary use of regalia and ceremony within the military."
Deborah M Rothschild, Curator of Exhibitions, Williams College Museum of Art; "Prelude to a Nightmare: Art, Politics, and Hitler's Early Years in Vienna 1906-1913"
"Adolf Hitler was an artist—a modern artist, at that—and Nazism was a movement shaped by his aesthetic sensibility. Cosmopolitan Vienna incubated his peculiar genius as well as his hideous ideas. These views have been in the air recently, and a trenchant scholarly exhibition at the Williams College Museum of Art, in Williamstown, Massachusetts—'Prelude to a Nightmare: Art, Politics, and Hitler's Early Years in Vienna 1906-1913'—advances them."
"The show's curator, Deborah Rothschild, was inspired by Hitler's Vienna: A Dictator's Apprenticeship, by Brigitte Hamann (1999). A forthcoming book, Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics, by Frederic Spotts, promises an interpretation of Hitler as 'a perverted artist.'"
HITLER AS ARTIST, How Vienna inspired the Führer's dreams, by PETER SCHJELDAHL, New Yorker, Issue of 2002-08-19 and 26.

These cites back up my claim.--Cberlet 02:19, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Christianity, Nazism, and Anti-Semitism

The Chart clearly states that “Christianity… not inherently intersect with supremacist, theocratic, or fascist ideologies.” I don’t see how that could be clearer. Nonetheless, this fact has been misrepresented to create a straw argument. Here are some cites to books that discuss the role of Christianity and Christian apocalyptic belief on the construction of anti-Semitism in Nazi ideology.

  • Norman Cohn, The Pursuit of the Millennium: Revolutionary Millenarians and Mystical Anarchists of the Middle Ages, revised and expanded (New York: Oxford University Press, 1970) (Note the original subtitle was: Revolutionary Messianism in Medieval and Reformation Europe and its Bearing on Modern Totalitarian Movements).
  • Norman Cohn, Warrant for Genocide: The Myth of the Jewish World Conspiracy and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (London: Serif, 1996).
  • James M. Rhodes, The Hitler Movement: A Modern Millenarian Revolution (Stanford, Calif: Hoover Institution Press, Stanford University, 1980).
  • Andrew Gow, The Red Jews. Antisemitism in an Apocalyptic Age, 1200-1600 (Leiden: Brill, 1995), Gow describes his book as an exploration of the interactions between medieval Christian attitudes to Jews and apocalyptic belief/expectation, both Christian and Jewish.
  • Richard Steigmann–Gall, The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945 (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003).--Cberlet 02:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

My published scholarly articles and a book that discuss Anti-Semitism in detail

  • Chip Berlet. (2004) Christian Identity: The Apocalyptic Style, Political Religion, Palingenesis and Neo-Fascism. Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions, Vol. 5, No. 3, (Winter), special issue on Fascism as a Totalitarian Movement.
  • _______. (2004). “Hate, Oppression, Repression, and the Apocalyptic Style: Facing Complex Questions and Challenges.” Journal of Hate Studies, Vol. 3, No. 1, Institute for Action against Hate, Gonzaga University Law School.
  • _______. (2001). “Hate Groups, Racial Tension and Ethnoviolence in an Integrating Chicago Neighborhood 1976-1988.” In Betty A. Dobratz, Lisa K. Walder, and Timothy Buzzell, eds., Research in Political Sociology, Volume 9: The Politics of Social Inequality, pp. 117–163.
  • _______ and Matthew N. Lyons. (2000). Right–Wing Populism in America: Too Close for Comfort. New York: Guilford Press.
  • _______. (2000). “Countering Genocidal and Hate Movements in the United States,” The ISG Newsletter, The Institute for the Study of Genocide, No. 24, Winter, pp. 12-17.
  • _______. (1998). “Mad as Hell: Right–wing Populism, Fascism, and Apocalyptic Millennialism.” Paper presented at the 14th World Congress of Sociology (XIVe Congrès Mondial de Sociologie), International Sociological Association, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, 1998.

This is a partial list.--Cberlet 02:38, 4 August 2005 (UTC)