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Crime and Criminal Biography B‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Shipman's birthday

Google turns up hits for both January and June 14 as Shipman's birthday, hence my edit... Evercat 00:38, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Let's Move it

I want to move this article to Harold Shipman. I don't think i've heard many media stories that call him by his full name.

Thoughts?

iHoshie 05:12, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

do it. Zocky 05:13, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

done. iHoshie 07:26, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Deleting questionable comments

I didn't think that it added anything to spell out the childish things that the Sun printed after Shipman's suicide. I also found no confirmation of the claim that Peter Moore is somehow helping any investigation of the suicide. --Greg Kuperberg 15:53, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Toll of Shipman's victims

Blair P. Houghton has now twice asserted that As of January 2005, investigators had raised the number considered murdered to 284 on the basis of I read it in the actual news. It's the facts. Coincidentally (?), the same month the Shipman Inquiry (referenced in the article) produced its sixth and final report and concluded that the probable toll of his victims was "about 250". Considering that the Inquiry worked for nearly four years at a cost of many millions of pounds to arrive at its conclusions, I prefer to believe its count rather than an uncited assertion from the news. -- Arwel 23:34, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

More information is given at http://www.delmartimes.net/#ceren (May not be there long? I checked google cache initially). It seems the consensus is 250 though.--24.119.112.13 00:07, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The Inquiry concluded 250. This article currently states two, contradictory, maximums, of 400 and 500. I am taking them out, since they don't have citations anyway, and linking to the Inquiry. raining girl 23:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Todmorden

I've found it eerie that Tod is "death" in German, and morden refers to murder. JFW | T@lk 22:36, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Should he be Dr?

Harold Shipman was struck off the medical register in 2002. It is not usual for medics who have been struck off to retain the title, nor for them to be referred to as Dr. Most media outlets refer to him as merely 'Harold Shipman'. Of course he is notorious for committing his crimes as a medical doctor, but that is evident in the article. I'd propose the 'Dr' be dropped.--81.104.194.27 10:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Vera Shipman

Saladin1970 (talk · contribs)

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inserted (in the intro, no less) that his mother Vera was a Jewish asylum seeker. If this needs to be mentioned at all (and I don't think it does), it should not be in the intro, having no relevance at all to Shipman's claim to fame.

This is the first time I've heard anyone say that he may have been Jewish. It is obvious that he was not a practicing Jew, and have my doubts whether this is not an attempt at guilt by association. JFW | T@lk 09:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Dame Janet Smith

Dame Janet Smith was so referred throughout the Shipman Inquiry. See the front page of all its publications and of its website. Any other reference is incorrect. David | Talk 17:20, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Pension

"Shipman's motive for suicide was not established, although he had reportedly told his probation officer that he was considering suicide so that his widow could receive a National Health Service pension and lump sum, even though he had been stripped of his own pension."

Did his wife get that pension? --SGGH 08:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Picture Needed

"was the most prolific known serial killer in the history of Britain (and possibly the world)"

Methinks this page should REALLY get a picture in it somewhere

Badcock and Harry Potter

What is with the paragraph involving Badcock in the "Trial and imprisonment" section? Is it vandalism, or was someone actually trying to convey information with it? I thought about trying to re-word it to correct the grammar mistakes and non-sequiturs but decided that I couldn't tell what it really said. Anyone know?

Jewish by Jayjg

ArbCom member Jayjg has stated that Shipman was a Jew here. Maybe it needs to be included somewhere in the article. 87.78.186.200 20:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes Shipman was Jewish, but what has that to do with the murders? Professor Boris (talk) 23:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Is Shipman Serial Killer World Record Holder?

Just wondering if anybody has beaten Shipman's score of 250? He must be in the top 5 at least? Colin4C 19:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• Whilst there can be little doubt that he is the UK national champ the exact number of his victims will always be open to speculation, as is the definition as to what exactly qualifies one as a serial killer.--Edchilvers 21:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

A title to be proud of. Do we really have to sink to the morbid level of "celebrating" him. Perhaps his wife should be awarded a trophy on his behalf. Fuck off. 89.213.56.44 21:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• No serial killer has found to have killed more anywhere in the world by any legal system, this is easily varifiable. Elizabeth Bathory is in second place with 150-200 kills according to evidence from her trial. His proven kill count is 215, although it may be higher. Even at 215 it's more than the proven kill count of anyone else. A serial killer is a predator who commits three or more separate acts of murder in a space of a month or more. I think however we should have the article say the most prolific "modern" serial killer --Gothicform 00:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Well I guess that proves, we're all fucked in the head, not just Shipman...

No Shipman is definitely not the world record serial killer, Thug Behram far exceeded him, Thug Behram killed more than 900 victims. Wooyi 01:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

• Though the original question by Colin4C is pretty peurile, I think there is something of academic interest behind it. It might be worth comparing Shipman to another doctor, John Bodkin Adams, who was thought by pathologist Francis Camps to have killed 163 patients between 1946 and 1956. Adams however first aroused suspicions regarding his activities in 1935, which would therefore suggest he could have rivalled Shipman's numbers. (See: Pamela V. Cullen, "A Stranger in Blood: The Case Files on Dr John Bodkin Adams", London, Elliott & Thompson, 2006. Page 636) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Malick78 (talk • contribs) 10:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Bodington Hall

I have removed an unreferenced mention of Bodington Hall added by a single-edit IP. The only google hits I can find are mirrors of WP. WP:RS welcomed. Mr Stephen 21:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

concurrent vs. consecutive

Regarding Ironman's change on November 19: I believe "consecutive" is the correct term in this case rather than "concurrent" (15 consecutive life sentences). No one can literally serve life 15 times, but nonetheless, I believe that is the correct terminology. Just doing a quick online search, I've found references to Shipman's "consecutive life sentences" on NY Times, BBC and Time magazine. Does anyone have more expertise on this terminology? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gingerwiki (talk • contribs) 00:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Concurrent is used by the BBC, Telegraph, and it's also backed up by a trial transcript. Consecutive doesn't generally make much sense with life sentences, although whole life tariff sentences are quite rare anyway. Concurrent sentences mean they are served at the same time, for example if someone received a twenty year sentence for armed robbery and a five year sentence for possession of cocaine, they would serve their sentences at the same time. If the sentences were consecutive, the prisoner would first serve the twenty year sentence, then serve the five year sentence (or vice versa). Hope that helps, and based on the trial transcript "concurrent" is correct. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 00:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

A trial transcript works for me; thank you!Gingerwiki (talk) 02:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Shipman's real total

Most estimates I read think Shipman killed over 500. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Professor Boris (talk • contribs) 23:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Reference to 'Jonathan King' song about Shipman

Jonathan King is just someone else who is in denial about his own guilt. He is a convicted sex offender who will do anything to maintain his own distorted public image as a man who has been misaligned. The mention of Jonathan Kings 'song' has no relevance to the article at all.

9000?

The article currently says he is suspected of over 9000 deaths. Is this correct? Grover (talk) 01:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I would also question this number, at least as far as it relates to its quoted source. I have not gone through Dame Smith's entire 1st report with a fine tooth comb, but in her conclusions on the numbers invovled I believe that this is the relevent quote

"In the 24 years during which Shipman worked as a doctor, I have found that, in addition to the 15 patients of whose murder he was convicted, he killed 200 patients. In a further 45 cases, there is real cause to suspect that Shipman might have killed the patient. In 38 cases, I have been unable to reach a conclusion of any kind due to the insufficiency of evidence. These deaths occurred mainly in the early years of Shipman's career, for which there are few written records. "

This would indicate a number far smaller than 9000. I propose that without verification, from this or indeed any other source, this number ought to be removed and the number 260 substituted. Thecrystalcicero (talk) 23:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, and sorry for not doing this earlier, I have looked at the edit history. It seems on the 16 of march, there was an unreasoned change from "at least 215" to the current version by an anonymous single edit IP address. I'm not saying this is vandalism, but unless antone seriouly objects and backs up the objection with source material, I will reinstate the old version. Thecrystalcicero (talk) 23:29, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Inquest??

"After his trial, a BMA inquest chaired by Dame Janet Smith..." Erm, wasn't it a government inquiry? Where does BMA and 'inquest' come from? Malick78 (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

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