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Edit this section for new requests

PHG and Légion d'honneur

PHG (talk · contribs) appears to be making unverifiable claims about an individual winning the Légion d'honneur. See discussion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Christian Polak#Convenience break 2. PHG claimed that they won the honor in 1989, but there is no evidence at Catégorie:Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur , nor at List of Légion d'honneur recipients by name, nor via Google search, including book search. It appears that the messages from the arbitration case Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance have not been taken to heart. I think PHG immediately needs to cease editing until a mentor is found to check for compliance with WP:NPOV and WP:V. Thoughts? Jehochman 20:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

That is clear gaming. PHG appears to be deliberately attempting to introduce misinformation, either in continuance of the pattern that earned him a topic ban in the first place or to make a point. Given the clarification thread where it appears that the arbitrators are on the way to widen the restriction, and this latest disruptive editing, I am blocking him indefinitely until arrangements for mentorship, or some other form of close supervision, can be taken. — Coren  21:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

At this point he's trying to toss everything he can find in Google at the article hoping to get it kept because this gentleman's significance is the only claim for the material in another article he's writing. See here where some else had to remove information that clearly was not even about the same person. Shell 21:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC) - Sorry, this information was inserted by someone other than PHG. Shell 22:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

On hold. Keep in Un-Resolved section, for now. Since it was initiated, the AfD should be allowed to take its course without the discussion, and energies of the participants, being fragmented. Report may be reopened based on the result. El_C 21:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

On hold. Keep in Un-Resolved section, for now. Since it was initiated, the AfD should be allowed to take its course without the discussion, and energies of the participants, being fragmented. Report may be reopened based on the result. El_C 21:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: indefinite block by Coren should be lifted immediately. I am likely to do it myself in a little while; at the very least, I'd like to see how the AfD is concluded before drastic action is taken (otherwise, what's the point of having an AfD?). Thx. El_C 23:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC))

Addendum 2: Okay, I unblocked PHG (I did, in fact miss the block having been issued when I wrote the first On-hold note above). I again ask that we wait for one structured discussion (AfD) to formally conclude before moving to the next. El_C 00:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Were it not for the timing, I would have opposed the unblock because I do not beleive PHG's behavior depends on Christian Polak's notability. Simply put: at best, PHG has used a source he did not properly understand in order to make an unsupportable claim. If that had been an isolated incident, I would have made nothing of it— but as it is, he was found by the Arbitration Committee to have habitually misrepresented sources, and he was strongly admonished not to do this again. Given that he has been brought again in front of the AC for that same problematic behavior, and that he nonetheless persists, yet another obvious "error" in comprehension was strictly unacceptable.

As it is, the most good faith we can stretch to cover PHG's citation practices is that he is extraordinarily careless in selecting and citing sources, so much so that any putative value he introduces to the encyclopedia is canceled by the fact that every single assertion he writes needs to be double and triple checked by other editors.

I don't beleive PHG has a future as a contributor on Misplaced Pages unless he is strictly and competently guided, and unless and until he agrees to mentorship. — Coren  00:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

You went on at such length and yet, inexplicably, failed to respond to my main objection: the afd was still open, so in theory it could go either way. I expect you to address this. El_C 00:49, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Simply put: I beleive it's entirely besides the point. Whether the AfD determines that there is consensus that the article's subject is notable enough to retain it or not has no bearing on the citation practices of PHG. He is at best negligent and at worst disingenuous in the way he makes citations from difficult (or impossible) to verify sources, and shows no effort or intent to correct those damaging practices. — Coren  00:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, how the AfD closes matters, because we expect it to also touch on that area (and if it doesn't, then we move on). El_C 01:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

It's unfortunate Coren has unarchived this report; now we have competing discussions. I really tried to avoid this from happening. El_C 00:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it should be held anywhere else, if that's your worry. — Coren  00:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't even know what that means. My worry is your methods. El_C 01:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

El C, considering that you and I have been involved in prior disputes, I question your impartiality here. --Elonka 01:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a bit of a stretch. Also, there was no objection when I took administrative action unfavorable to PHG. El_C 01:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Can I ask what on earth the AfD has to do with whether or not this incident warrants a block? This isn't about someone's behavior in one AfD, this is about a contributor who habitually misrepresents or outright falsifies sources -- that he happened to do so again on an article that is up for AfD is completely beside the point. Shell 01:15, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

That should be shown in the AfD, since it already started. We don't need multiple discussions, and he should be allowed to participate. El_C 01:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The status of the AfD is irrelevant. The block was appropriate because PHG violated sanctions. I wasn't really involved with this discussion since I don't read Japanese, but Google translation has been extremely helpful. In a nutshell:

• During a contentious AfD on the article Christian Polak (which PHG had created), PHG added information saying that Polak had "received the Medal of the Légion d'honneur (Chevalier) in 1989." The source given was http://necom.cool.ne.jp/book0206.html .
• The listed source is in Japanese, but a Google translation to English is available here.
  • What the source shows is that:
    • For one, it is a very weak source. It is obviously a self-written speaker bio, which is not allowable as a source for claims of notability (see WP:SELFPUB)
    • Even allowing for the above, the source doesn't say anything about the Legion d'honneur award. Instead, it mentions a National Order Award.
    • Further, PHG added to the article that the award was given in 1989, but this is not confirmed in the source that he added.

When challenged about the information at the AfD, PHG did back down, remove the source, and change the name of the award. However, that he added the information at all, with such a weak source (and a misinterpreted source at that) appears to be clearly in breach of the ArbCom ruling, specifically Finding of Fact #2:

In numerous edits to a series of articles concerning medieval and ancient history, including but not limited to articles relating to the alleged Franco-Mongol Alliance, PHG has cited scholarly books and articles for propositions that the cited works do not fairly support. Typically, PHG has isolated on a particular statement or quotation within a work and taken it out of context without fairly presenting the viewpoint of the source taken as a whole. Some examples of this have been presented by the parties here. Arbitrators' independent review of several of PHG's sourced edits versus the content of the original sources confirms that several sources have been cited in a misleading or distorted fashion. Although we continue to assume good faith with regard to the intent of PHG's editing, its overall effect is problematic.

And Remedy #2:

PHG is reminded that in contributing to Misplaced Pages (including his talkpage contributions, contributions in other subject-matter areas, and contributions after the one-year editing restriction has expired), it is important that all sourced edits must fairly and accurately reflect the content of the cited work taken as a whole.

In other words, despite the ArbCom cautions, PHG has continued to use weak sources, and/or cited them "in a misleading or distorted fashion." As such, a block was appropriate. --Elonka 01:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The AfD was actively investigating the above. That's why I put the AE report on hold. So we can have one investigation restricted to one place. The block seems to have cut it short, however; while I expect PHG principal opponents to support the block, wouldn't they rather have a more substantive, and transparent, basis for it? I might have been ready to support it soon. El_C 01:39, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

It comes across as too eager for immediate censure. All of you should have just let me place this report on hold. Allow the AfD to close (any day now — I would have done it myself and had time to look at it had it not been for these distractions), then, if the citation methodology was shown to still be problematic (which it may well be), we could have made arrangements for mentorship or whatever. But this seeming concerted must-be-censured right-now mentality is not what we want to turn Arbitration Enforcement into. There's no rush. El_C 01:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree completely that there is no rush, and will be happy if El C reviews the AfD carefully and provides an opinion. El C has an excellent understanding of history. Jehochman 01:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I have no trouble with El C offering an opinion at the AfD, but I strongly disagree that El C should be using his admin tools here. --Elonka 01:42, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

As stated above, Elonka had no trouble when I took administrative action that favoured herself in this dispute, but now there's suddenly a problem? Because she is not being automatically supported? It doesn't work that way. El_C 01:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

El C, your protecting that page did not "favor me", and for the record, yes, I had a problem with you getting involved with that one too, but it was a minor issue so I didn't say anything. But now you've gone and overruled another admin, which is a very different matter. You should not have gotten involved. There's also the issue of your relationship with Jehochman, but that's a more complex issue. Some of your comments on Coren's talkpage were also inappropriate. To be clear: El C, I would prefer if you no longer used administrator tools in any situation involving me, as I do not trust your impartiality. It would also be nice if you deleted that subpage in your userspace devoted to me. --Elonka 02:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea what Elonka is talking about. I don't see how everything PHG-related pertains to her. My relationship with Jehochman is perfectly normal (what I missing there?). My comments on Coren's page are, in part, a followup of other, unrelated issues regarding similar premature action. Elonka, Shell and Coren who are still fairly new admins, do not appear to fully appreciate how blocks are not punitive. PHG can be told not make similar edits, but to restrict him from an ongoing discussion is not in the spirit of how do things around here. Now, I don't at all mind letting another admin handle this, if only to reduce some of the increasing tension. But I would prefer that it be overseen by an admin who, like myself, is experienced in attending to arbitration enforcement matters. Many thanks in advance. El_C 02:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Please do not lump me in the "new admin" or "supporting the block" categories - I just asked what on earth the AfD had to do with whether or not PHG was violating his restrictions. Shell 02:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I think I'm done here. El_C 03:10, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

El_C, that patronizing attitude will most certainly not win you any friends. I am hardly a "new" admin, and nobody here is questioning the amount of AE work you have been doing. A block until mentoring can be found of an editor whom I estimate to be damaging to the encyclopedia (and I am very obviously not alone in this evaluation) is most certainly not punitive, regardless on how you personally care to call it. — Coren  03:44, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Although I'm not here to win friends, it's unfortunate you keep reading what I say as patronizing (again, such is not the intent); you are fairly new, and quick on the block button, still. Regards, El_C 04:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Request for additional input

Would several other uninvolved editors please weigh in on what we should do about this situation. We do not have a consensus yet. Jehochman 04:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment by PHG

Thank you for your kind support on this during the time I was peacefully sleeping in Paris. I do read and write Japanese quite fluently (I spent quite a few years there), and I basically never use a translation tool such as Google for Japanese. Unfortunately, I am not an expert of the Japanese names for French medals though. When I saw the information about Polak's medals on the Japanese website, I did think that 国家功労賞 was Japanese for "Legion d'honneur". I asked a Japanese national (who speaks fluent French), who could not give me the French name for 国家功労賞 either. The Japanese site used for the source is an online publishing house , which I thought should be fair enough as a (first) source. A few hours later and some Googling, I realized 国家功労賞 was Ordre National du Merite (mainly because I couldn't find other mentions of Polak's Legion d'Honneur as well). So, I was wrong with the denomination of the medal, and when I realized that I corrected it right away ("Ahhh, 国家功労賞 seems to be Ordre national du Mérite. シュバリエ is Chevalier (the first rank), オフィシエ is Officier (Officer, the second rank). Would somebody have access to the list of recipients of the Ordre national du Mérite? PHG (talk) 20:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)" ). By the way, the Japanese site was not so bad, as it was confirmed by French official sites . Sorry for the mistake, but sometimes Japanese/French/English translations can be tricky, although I think I would rank as quite good at it. Best regards to all. PHG (talk) 13:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Why did you reinsert this poorly sourced material into a biography of a living person? Jehochman 13:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, because I think it is quite well sourced, since it is an article from the Monthly Letter of the French Chamber of Commerce in Japan , and I added the original French quote as J.Reading had requested. Best regards. PHG (talk) 13:34, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

For the sake of transparency, could you use the web site's domain name instead of the IP address? Also, this looks like a cached copy of the document. The cache link is unreliable and could go dead. Can you link to the live copy of the document instead? Could you endeavor to use {{cite}} templates with as many of the fields completed as reasonably possible? I do a lot of citing and cite checking. Errors are less problematic when cites allow others to check and correct the information. I have created a plugin for Firefox, wpcite.xpi, that partially automates web citations. You might find this useful. Jehochman 14:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

... which is my whole point. Why did you insert material you did not understand into an article? If you didn't know what 国家功労賞 stood for, it was not appropriate to insert a reference to a guess in the meantime (especially one that is so trivially verifiable as false). I am making no inferences about your motives or intent from this, but at the very least you are being careless— which is compounded by the fact that you have been repeatedly told that your sourcing practices are problematic. — Coren  15:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Please remember to assume good faith, as reasserted by Arbcom. I wrote that 国家功労賞 was "Légion d'honneur" because I thought it was (over-self-confidence: I am quite fluent in Japanese, oral and written). When I realized it was Ordre National du Merite, I immediately corrected it. Best regards. PHG (talk) 13:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I have made a simple request for PHG to better comply with policy on verifiability. As has happened many times before, when editing problems are identified to PHG, he invokes WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and continues as if nothing has happened. Jehochman 18:35, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

PHG, you have posted several times on this page since I made the above request. Are you willing to improve the quality of your sourcing, or not. Thank you for answering directly. A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice. Jehochman 13:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe I have always been highly compliant with Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, and intend to continue doing so and even improve further in the future. Best regards. PHG (talk) 14:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me. There an arbitration finding of fact, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance#Misrepresentation of sources that shows your contributions have failed to meet standards of verifiability expected by Misplaced Pages. My complaint here is that you have not improved your methods. Do you still deny that there have been problems with the verifiability of your contributions? If you will agree to make improvements, and follow through on the commitment, that might resolve my complaint. Jehochman 14:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the Arbcom clearly states: "we continue to assume good faith with regard to the intent of PHG's editing". I am indeed editing in good faith, and consider my edits are highly compliant with Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, and again, intend to even improve further in the future. I will not respond to further provocation on this subject. Best regards. PHG (talk) 14:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Your intentions do not matter. The effect on the encyclopedia is harmful due to the addition of unverifiable information, and your edits definitely do not comply with verifiability. I am expressing a concern, which has been endorsed by other editors, and you are ignoring the concern. This is exactly the problem that brought us to arbitration. Jehochman 15:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman, I believe you are not here to replace Arbcom or to modify its rulings. I have been highly compliant with the Arbcom ruling, and my contributions have been made clearly outside of my editing restrictions. For example France-Japan relations (19th century) is properly sourced and highly complies with verifiability. Rather than rethorics, if you have specific issues, please highlight them. Best regards PHG (talk) 16:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

And, again, you refuse to acknowledge your problem and simply wikilawyer your way around the wording of the AC finding. Did it occur to you there is a reason why the arbitrators are already considering widening the scope of their previous ruling? — Coren  00:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) PHG's misrepresentation of the Japanese language website is all too typical of the problems with his use of sources. He is long past the the point where he can afford to pass off the deficiencies of his research as simple mistakes. He has never shown any understanding of the issues which led to the Arbcom censure and as a result his problematic behavior continues. His most recent activities constitute a clear violation of Remedy #2. He has abused our good faith for too long. Aramgar (talk) 17:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

(followup request) This thread has now been here for a week, and the corresponding motion at WP:RCAM (requests for clarification and motions) has been there since March. Both threads have been inactive for a couple days now, and I would hate to see it archived out of apathy or "stale-ness", as it is my impression (granted, I am involved) that several editors in good standing have indicated a strong desire for action of some sort. I think that everyone here is being very patient, but that doesn't mean that the problem has gone away. Could someone please provide some kind of an update? Thanks, --Elonka 04:04, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Elonka is not the only editor who would like to see this issue resolved. Kafka Liz (talk) 15:14, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic and religious provocation

I think the following remark by PHG reveals his agenda:

... Christians might resent material showing exchanges, agreements and goodwill between the Popes and the Mongols for example, although it is historical reality. The people whom I have encountered (and who attacked me relentlessly at Arbcom) and who have always tried to play down these relations, remove original letters etc... typically seem to be from "heartland America" (Christian Midwest).

— User:PHG

PHG was reminded of the need to collaborate with other editors at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance#PHG reminded: collaborative consensus. Baiting with ethnic/religious provocation is not collaborative; in fact, it is quite disruptive. Jehochman 13:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't know, it's just a Talk Page discussion, basically a statement of facts, as a response to a worry of User:Appletrees about the reactions of Korean Christians to his planned translation of Franco-Mongol alliance (here). Don't worry, it is not a question of "agenda": I am Christian myself, it's just that I am of the European kind, which means that I am probably quite tolerant in my outlook. Quite a few people have called me "French", or "pro-Buddhist", or whatever, and have even suggested that I should go and write on some other language Misplaced Pages: I don't consider it "Ethnic and religious provocation" or whatever, and I don't think describing that some users are "Midwest Christian" should either. Best regards PHG (talk) 13:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

PS: I do think that your systematic accusations are quite disruptive however :) Cheers. PHG (talk) 13:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I request you to strike all of your remarks that are enthnic or religious stereotypes. It is not appropriate to presume that somebody is biased because of where they live or what religion they practice. Jehochman 13:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC) (added 14:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC))

Again, this is not about stereotype or claim of "bias", but a simple presentation of fact on a Talk Page discussion, to answer to the worries of another editor. Best regards PHG (talk) 15:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it is stereotyping to say that Middle-American Christians are biased. Here we go again with the bold denials of what is plainly clear. I have tried to discuss this with you, but you refuse to listen to any sort of criticism. Jehochman 15:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I never said, anywhere, that "Middle-American Christians are biased". This is serious misrepresentation. PHG (talk) 16:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

PHG's statement is plainly derogatory and relies on an offensive stereotype. What's more, if we consider which users have been in conflict with him, and their geographic origins, it's clear that PHG has one particular editor in mind as a "Midwest Christian". This is an offensive statement, and PHG should refrain from making such statements, even on his talk page. I don't normally recommend blocking users for things they say on their talk pages, but PHG's militant cluelessness is straining my patience, as is his refusal to recognize that there are any problems with his use of sources. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, so if this is indeed perceived as such, I will strike my statement: . My apologies for this. PHG (talk) 15:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"perceived as such" is a textbook example of a non-apology. You persistently act in a disruptive manner, then refuse to acknowledge the nature of the problem (see above, where you have repeatedly been asked to acknowledge your exceedingly poor referencing but deny the existence of the problem even in the face of an Arbitration Committee finding). — Coren  16:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I maintain that my statement was only a statement of fact, and in no way constitutes a claim of bias or in no way has a derogatory intent. A user (User:Appletrees) said he was worried by the reaction of (Korean) Christian editors, and I just answered there were indeed reactions in the past from (Midwest) Christian editors (here). I do apologize if this generates bad feelings, which is why I striked my comment. Best regards. PHG (talk) 16:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) PHG's comments about Midwestern Christians are reminiscent of the delusional ravings of Geir Smith and Dr Boubouleix. Need we state again that many editors had concerns about his Franco-Mongol alliance because he misrepresented sources to advance a novel interpretation of history. The suggestion that he is the victim of some sort of religious prejudice is absurd. It is a breach of civility, no matter where it was written, and constitutes a personal attack on User:Elonka (and perhaps User:Ealdgyth also). How much longer will the Misplaced Pages community allow a single disruptive user to waste our time? Aramgar (talk) 17:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Assuming that folks who participated in the ArbCom case are Christian is a bit of a stretch. You don't know if I'm Christian or not. (The fact that I edit bishops in no way has any bearing on that, nor the fact of where I live). Assuming that I because I live in the American Midwest that I must be Christian is a stereotype. Would you like it if I stereotyped French editors on some similiar basis? Ealdgyth - Talk 17:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The above comment of PHG placed was originally left at my Talk page, so isn't it a courtesy for anyone to let me know of this? I feel obliged to comply with this endless accusation on PHG because every time I say something to PHG, he gets some unfair punishment or blame. (Legion d'honneur, image warnings, so-called religious "agenda")

Well, I highly recommend PHG to use E-mail if he wants to chat casually with somebody. That is not an ethnic and religious provocation or agenda or whatever. It is simply chatting. I think someone may accuse me of suddenly jumping into this matter, but I'm primarily a Korean Wikipedian who has translated over 300 articles (mostly about Western culture and history) into Korean and Commons editor, so I've acknowledge PHG for his accomplished contribution on Commons, especially his photography related to Asian art and history in which I am getting very interested.

In my short response, I told him about Korean Misplaced Pages's situation briefly but he caught a hidden meaning well. The Misplaced Pages has barely over 50,000 articles, but holds considerable amount of articles related to Crusader and Christianity. The number of articles is double of Chinese Misplaced Pages and almost similar to Japanese Misplaced Pages (170,000 articles and 450,000 articles in total respectively) That means when I translate those kind of articles, I should be very careful not to exhaust myself to deal with some editors, honestly to say, who don't get respect by the community. Even though I'm a Christian, I do think that anything violating WP:UNDUE to look the religion or people unnecessarily glorified should be out of the Misplaced Pages. Anyway, I don't know what ethnicity PHG or other editors have, but I don't think PHG explicitly implied Elonoka. Before PHG created Franco-Mongol alliance, did he ever get blocked for any disruption? No, but the article is strongly associated with religion, so he may think as such. That is not a derogatory slur or anything. This unfair accusation is an attempt to block him permernantly which is really beyond good faith. I am also very disturbed by Elonaka's attempt to accuse PHG's photography of violating the image policy. ] I checked his earing image and one presented by her with Photoshop software, but that is really his picture. I think Elonka's activities against PGH is really disruptive and makes her unwarranted more.--Appletrees (talk) 22:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

To anyone who has been following this dispute for the duration, User:PHG's mention of editors from the "Christian Midwest" is a transparent reference to User:Elonka. Elonka's religious background and geography are in evidence on her userpage. Moreover, Elonka's Catholicism is a favorite talking point of PHG's allies . In short, we have heard this all before. Aramgar (talk) 23:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

So? Even if PHG really intended to imply her, I would not know if you guys tell this at here. The page is also my private place and he was delighted for my future translated article in other language Misplaced Pages, and we briefly talked about situation around the article. However, is following his every step somewhat like a stalking? Elonka falsely accused him and got him blocked in the last case, so I really understand his feeling about her.--Appletrees (talk) 23:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Appletrees. Elonka is not stalking PHG but exercising appropriate oversight in tracking the edits of a user with a continuing history of problems regarding misuse of sources. As someone unfamiliar with the extent of the dispute, you are missing a lot of the background that would clarify things. Please don't misunderstand me: I am not saying that your opinion is unwelcome, even if I disagree with it, but I just wanted you to be aware that there is a bigger picture here. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm.. according to your page, you're related to Aramgar. Sorry, I don't misunderstand anything. What I speak here is from what I've seen the Abicom case and Elonka's several time complaints about PHG on Thatcher's page for over one month. I was at the AFD and his translation error is I think, minor and not intentional, because I know translating from an Asian language to English or vice versa is tricky per my experience. I don't believe that his error is deliberately committed as Jehochman's assertion. I was rather shocked at his not-so-good-faith report and threatening.(I thought he is a very rational and calm admin). My impression on Elonka is not from one day or two weeks observation. You did not explain Elonka's attempt to accuse of PHG's possible copy infringement. Well, I'm knowledgeable of photography and image softwares, so her attempt to nail her firm belief on PHG is really annoying me because it is from bad faith. --Appletrees (talk) 00:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if the person in question would write off Mircea Eliade, an Orthodox Christian who taught in Chicago, in the Midwest, as well? Judging people by their location is, or even implying judgement of people by their location, is something which I believe cannot be considered anything other than deliberately offensive. I sincerely urge the party in question to refrain from any and all such prejudicial statements in the future. And, yeah, I'm from that area too. John Carter (talk) 00:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, no offense intended, and thank you so much Appletrees for your support. It was just a personal exchange between me and Appletrees about possible Christian reactions to an article (here), and I think we have the right to talk about that. I already apologized however to anybody who might take offense. It has been indeed quite puzzling to me that most of my staunchest opponents for Franco-Mongol alliance have been females from the US Midwest: User:Elonka, User:Ealdgyth, User:Shell Kinney. Again, just a statement of fact, and pardon me if my geographical definition might be a bit blurry. I am French, and Appletrees is Korean, we are both Christian, and I don't think we'll take any offense if that is mentionned :) Best regards. PHG (talk) 01:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

A sexist attitude as well... PHG, we have formed our opinions about you based on the quality of your edits alone. Please refrain from unhelpful and simplistic speculation about motives. Kafka Liz (talk) 01:44, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

What on the earth is "sexist" about saying that these three editors are female? As far as I know "female" is a simple descriptive, but calling me "sexist" is an outright personal attack. Regards PHG (talk) 20:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

PHG, you are being extraordinarily clueless. You already know that several different users find your statements offensive; why do you continue to repeat them and elaborate upon them? It's hard to believe that you don't understand *why* people find what you're saying offensive, but by calling people "Midwest Christians" you seem to be saying that they're motivated by religious bias rather than legitimate intellectual concerns; that's a personal attack. By mentioning that these users are female, you imply that their gender somehow biases them against you--it sure looks like you're blaming their opposition on feminine irrationality, rather than legitimate concerns with your contributions. That's sexist.

My advice to you is to stop contributing to this thread. When you find yourself trying to explain why an offensive remark isn't offensive, it means that you're in a hole, and you need to stop digging. Please try to realize that nearly every contributor to this thread thinks that your contributions are problematic because you misuse references, and that ArbCom has confirmed this, and seems poised to restrict your editing even further. These findings have nothing to do with anyone's national origin or religious beliefs, still less their gender--they have everything to do with you and your behavior. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Akhilleus, you took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn't have said it better myself. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Ahem. I objected, but he never responded. Although I didn't suppose when it happened that it was particularly aimed, this current thread does lead me to wonder. It isn't all that hard to find out that I went to graduate school at the Cinema-Television division of the University of Southern California. Was PHG calling a group of editors bigots collectively, or was that coded language directed at me in particular? Either way, an apology is six weeks overdue. Durova 01:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Mandatory mentorship

I strongly recommend that PHG (talk · contribs) be prevented from editing until such time that a mentor can be found to guide and oversee his edits. Because of El_C's unexplainable decision to unblock him previously, I am not in a position to enforce this without descending into wheel-warring. — Coren  16:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Your move to block me was in reaction to a translation mistake (from Japanese to French) I had made in good faith (and corrected as soon as I uncovered it), which is really a poor reason to block someone (again a request by Jehochman). Arbcom has stated that my edits are done in good faith, and that's really the case. I am grateful that many users came to my defense, including El_C (here). Just because I am under Arbcom restriction doesn't mean I should be blocked everytime somebody accuses me of something. If you have specific issues with my edits, I will be glad to discuss them. I am quite proud of the quality of the work I have done since my Arbcom restrictions came into effect: France-Japan relations (19th century), almost an FA-level article, or Tokugawa Akitake‎, Guillaume Courtet, Gustave Duchesne de Bellecourt or Johann Caspar Horner. Best regards. PHG (talk) 16:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

No, it was in reaction to your introducing erroneous information in an article, again. Whether you do so because you are careless or disingenuous has now become quite immaterial; you are being told, over and over, to be careful and you simply maintain your position without even acknowledging that there is a problem. As isolated incidents, those would not be worth more than a notice, but it is a constant pattern which you fail to correct (or even admit exist). — Coren  19:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

This is untrue. As soon as I identified the translation mistake, I apologized. And I will gladly acknowledge my errors and apologize anytime I do make a mistake. On the other hand, if I believe I am being accused unfairly, I will always defend myself. Please note that I have been contributing a lot to Misplaced Pages (over a period of 4 years, 26.000 edits to date, 8 FAs, thousands of photographs), so it is a statistical reality that there will be some mistakes sometimes. Look, France-Japan relations (19th century) is already 30k-long, so I guess you're bound to find one or two errors in it. Everytime this happens however, I gladly acknowledge and correct. Best regards. PHG (talk) 00:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Coren that PHG has exhausted the communities patience regarding his use of sources and uncollegial communication with other editors. In my mind, PHG is one step from a complete article space ban, and two from full site ban. While I understand ElC's position, I disagree also. PHG as lost whatever good faith an editor normally gets. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 20:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry that you should think that, dear Rocksanddirt. I am glad to announce you that the Christian Polak article has just passed AfD, and has thus been accepted by the Community as a proper Misplaced Pages article, inspite of all the dirt that has been thrown about it. May I suggest you just actually take a look at my contributions, such as the France-Japan relations (19th century) article? Best regards. PHG (talk) 20:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

If you look at Talk:Christian Polak#Bibliography problem, you will see evidence that the bibliography of this businessman-academic has been inflated and spun to enhance his purported notability. This is very troubling and may be grounds for a deletion review, especially because the falsifications only came to light after the AfD was nearly completed. The fact that this article was kept shows that community processes, like AfD, are easily subverted when sources are misrepresented. This is a good reason for the Arbitration Committee to reconsider the current remedies which appear insufficient. Jehochman 20:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

User:MONGO and the WTC

I have been referred here from ANI. (Background at ANI two days ago.) Unfortunately, Tango's warning to MONGO has been rejected and ignored. MONGO obviously thinks he's in the right here. We may as well get ArbCom's rememedy tested sooner, rather than waiting til later.--Thomas Basboll (talk) 09:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

My reading of the diffs you provide is that MONGO is calling a spade a spade. I have touched a few of those articles myself, so consider this an editorial opinion. Admins who jump on good editors who try to protect the encyclopedia should first look at the subject of complaint and see if there is something wrong there. MONGO is complaining about a real problem, not something he has imagined. Thomas Basboll, you are a well known partisan in this dispute, and no doubt you'd like to get MONGO restricted so you can get your way with the article. I am not at all convinced by your complaint. Jehochman 12:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Until I receive a formal warning about being a "spade" in this case, I will not dignify the accusation with a denial. One way of reading the ArbCom decision is as an injunction to practice restraint when calling "spade" (as the essay on that topic already notes: "there is still a requirement for editors to be civil to each other, so it is better not to call other editors disruptive or vandals.") In any case, he has been warned, and he has continued.--Thomas Basboll (talk) 13:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked MONGO for one week for incivility. He has a history of bad attitude and shows no signs of learning. Telling an admin to "get lost" when they issue an official warning is not acceptable behaviour. I have requested a review of this block on WP:AN/I. --Tango (talk) 13:20, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

MONGO only said that the article read like is was written by CTers. He didn't call anyone a CTer. He didn't edit war. This is a little too much whining. I personally believe it has too much CT elements as well. --DHeyward (talk) 13:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

That's not what he was blocked for. He was warned for calling someone a troll and blocked for responding to that warning with "get lost". --Tango (talk) 14:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

"Get lost" isn't trolling. Here's an example of an uncivil response: . Now that's uncivil. Jehochman 14:22, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

He's been reblocked for 29 hours, to give a total block time of 31 hours. PhilKnight (talk) 15:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Strongly recommend Tango recuse himself from further blocking on Mongo and refer future problems to a single noticeboard for uninvolved review. Durova 16:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

In what way is he involved? _(1 == 2) 16:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved notices

Meowy

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24-hour block issued, and logged. El_C 07:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Meowy (talk · contribs) has been placed on revert parole and other restrictions in accordance with Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 ruling: which limited him to 1 rv per week. Further, he is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page.

However on 2008 Mardakert skirmishes Meowy made an rv of a very dubious merit (removing the word “unrecognized” which was clearly in relation to the self-proclaimed republic and not the flag, so the pretext is baseless and the rv was disruptive) and failed to discuss it on the talk of the relevant article, which he is required to do in accordance to his parole. Previously the same edit was made by banned User:Azad chai (149.68.31.146 (talk · contribs) and other edit warring anons on the same page are Azad chai or his friends). This is not the first violation of parole by Meowy, he was warned and blocked for violations before. Grandmaster (talk) 07:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that flag being recognized argument is pretty weak; otherwise, I could let the no talk page followup go as a forgetful slip-up. El_C 07:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

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ScienceApologist

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No action for this diff today. Flame-warring and wikipolitics are not appropriate here.GRBerry 16:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is under a restriction against assumptions of bad faith which he appears to have violated with this edit. Dlabtot (talk) 16:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I think this request is frivolous and ill advised considering the sock puppets that have been trolling ScienceApologist today. Very poor timing indeed to bring this here now, and I think the diff is not egregious enough to warrant any action. The first diff I looked at appears to support ScienceApologists assertion. Misplaced Pages has more than enough fringe theory promoters. Editors are allowed to call a spade a spade. Jehochman 16:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Forum-shopping by a known provocateur, User:Dlabtot. Again, I ask that people who actually take offense tell me. I'm having an ongoing conversation with User:Childhoodsend and I don't appreciate this stalking. Someone please sanction this user and tell him to stop Misplaced Pages:Wikistalking me all over the place. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:51, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that SA is exactly right about Childhoodsend - he (Childhoodsend) is a reprobate POV pusher who does, in fact, push an anti-science agenda in one article after another. Raul654 (talk) 16:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I have also had very difficult and unreasonable irrational interactions with Dlabtot. I think that until we start sanctioning people for bringing these egregious spurious complaints, they will continue and get worse. We will live more and more in a state of terror by those who want to use political correctness and wikilawyering as a weapon. Sanction Dlabtot if anyone for this.--Filll (talk) 16:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

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Reincarnation of user banned during Arbcom?

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Please open a suspected sock or checkuser report. Reopen this if the suspicions are confirmed. El_C 06:44, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Anti-in popular culture/anti-trivia accounts Dannycali, Burntsauce, and Eyrian were banned in the Alkivar and subsequent Eyrian arbitration cases. Those familiar with those cases should look at these contribs. Notice, the editor under question has an incrediblye large gap in edits:

• 21:39, 5 April 2007 (hist) (diff) m Helen Keller‎ (→Removing vandalization)
• 07:16, 20 December 2006 (hist) (diff) Talk:Armenian Power‎ (Request for page to be locked.)

He also expresses an opinion strikingly similar to the banned socks associated with the above mentioned cases and seems to be picking up today where the banned accounts left off. More specifically, his main contributions for today focuses on starting and participating in a new AfD (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Classical elements in popular culture (second nomination)) for the same article previously nominated by banned account Eyrian (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Classical elements in popular culture). And the use of death as a metaphor for what should happen to these kinds of articles is also consistent with what we have seen in previous AfDs associated with the now banned accounts. Nevertheless, to be fair, based on this edit, I could be wrong (Eyrian was almost never nice to me), so I'll leave it to someone else's judgment. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 02:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

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