Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Koalorka (talk | contribs) at 17:59, 15 April 2008 (→RE:Make benefit glorious white Turkey?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

WikiProject Firearms

Welcome to the WikiProject Firearms. I hope you enjoy being a member.--LWF 23:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Hope you enjoyed my SG 550 article. More accurate articles to follow time permitting. Koalorka 19:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Rk 95 TP edits

OK dude, why the hell are you undoing my edits without giving a reason all the time. Some corrections I want to make without you undoing them:

- The Rk 95 buttstock does NOT fit any kind of cleaning equipment or kit, only a 3-piece cleaning rod that you screw into a hole. - At the effective range I would expect the effective range in meters, not what the sights are "graduated" for. That info is for the "sights" section, where (to top it off) it is already stated! The effective range is 300 meters as stated by the Finnish Defence Forces' Soldier's Handbook. - The sights are not "flip-up" like BUI sights, but they are selected by flipping. Why don't you mention the night sights at all? The settings are 1) open night sight 2) 150m aperture 3) 300m aperture. The front post does not have a tritium insert, there is a separate bigass flipup front post with tritium behind the front post. And you call the rear sight "L-shaped"? LOL, nice description, I have trouble visualizing what you mean even when I've flipped and cleaned that goddamned sight about 1000 times. - Where did you get the idea that an underslung grenade launcher can be fitted? There is a mock-up picture of an Rk/M92 with an m203 going around the Internet, but it is just a mock-up, you can't remove the mag when it's mounted. The FDF has never to my knowledge even tested the RK with an underslung GL, much less approved one for use. - synthetic vs. metal stock and usage in FDF, whatever. There is lots more small stuff (mostly semantics) that I won't start arguing about.

Merry Christmas.

edit: I'm blankku btw.

• Hello. Effective range can be interpreted as any range at which the rifle can be used to engage and destroy targets. So as you can imagine this leaves it open to many inaccuracies. Some see the range as the maximum range the bullet remains letal for a human being, others estimate the average combat distance. These are subjective and it is best simply to include the desikgner's intejust nded ranges incorporated into the sight system. This is a standard we use, information about the type of sighcheck out Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Military history for standardized templates. The "sights" sections contains ting arrangement, not their range increments.

• Yes, I know what the sights are, and yes they would be considered "flip-up". Is english your native language? We call an L-shaped dual aperture "flip-up" sights and it is correct. WHAT ABOUT THE NIGHT SIGHTS?! Did you even read the article? Here it is again:

"The rifle comes with adjustable iron sights, that consist of a forward post and an L-shaped dual-aperture rear sight with settings for firing at 150 and 300 m. The front sight, manually corrected for windage and elevation, is mounted in a semi-shrouded post on top of the gas block, and the rear sight – on the receiver’s top cover. For operation in low-lighting conditions subdued self-luminous tritium inserts are used, installed in a separate, folding post (mounted to the base of the foresight post, deployed manually) and in the rear sight an assembly in a fixed notch sight (mounted forward of the aperture sight), visible after placing the rear aperture in intermediate position. Additionally the rifle can be adapted to use optical sights (i.e. a Trijicon ACOG, PSO-1 telescopic sight or night vision equipment such as the Patria VV2000 sight), through the use of a receiver-mounted side-rail. A detachable cheek riser is employed when using optics."

As you can clearly see it contains accurate information about the iron and night sights, so I don't know where you are coming from with this....

The rear sight is actually referred to as an "L" shaped dual aperture in the ENCYCLOPEDIA I used for reference. Perhaps you are better versed in firearms nomenclature than the editors at Janes, what would you propose?

• The manufacturer states that a grenade launcher can be mounted and just because the Finnish forces doesn't use this configurations doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is not possible.

Semantics? You reverted and called the stock synthetic, which is incorrect. Please don't include false information and then simply shrug it off as "semantics". Research your facts before you include them and state sources. First-hand experience is irrelevant, there is no original research on Misplaced Pages. Koalorka (talk) 16:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

- OK, blankku here again.

1) Yeah, I estimate it as the average effective combat distance, as I hope most militaries or reasonable people do, as we're talking about a military weapon. "Range" and "max range" are two different terms and both included in the infobox. Whatever, Wikipeida standards seem to be retarded anyway. 2) No, English is my third language. So? "L-shaped sight" is a stupid term. 3) I am talking about including it in the infobox. The part you cited is wrong anyway, the night sights aren't visible in an "intermediate" position, the progression is 1) night sight 2) 150 m 3) 300 m. If it's some Misplaced Pages "standards" again, OK, whatever, you win.

"Perhaps you are better versed in firearms nomenclature than the editors at Janes, what would you propose?"

What? I would propose what I edited it to, of course? It don't know if it's perfect but it's certainly better than some "L-shaped sight".

Do you have a citation for the Russian PSO-1 being used on the Rk 95 TP? Even if you do, why would you use it as an example? This rifle is only used by the FDF, this is why I included the part about FDF usage.

An underslung "40 mm" grenade launcher can possibly be nailed or glued to any firearm in the world, why should it be included in the article? I have never seen such a config fully implemented and I am very interested in any refence to this statement. If you don't have any real-life reference to it, if you don't I would at least expect the article to state that this config is hypothetical.

The Rk 95 TP buttstock will NOT fit anything other than the 3-piece cleaning rod and some sand. This is a fact, I don't have any Internet source for it though.

"Semantics? You reverted and called the stock synthetic, which is incorrect."

It is coated in some kind of polymer/plastic, so just calling it "metallic" is incorrect. I admit I was as wrong as you about this one, a compromise like "polymer-coated metal" would be more correct.

I am also really interested in the possibility of mounting "KCB-type bayonet", do you have a citation for this? I am serious, in FDF we are told that it isn't compatible with a bayonet (I assume standard FDF issue, ie. Rk 62) but I don't know what SAKO says. The rifle can be fed from other mags than the polymer ones btw, for example metal and drum mags, just to be clear.

Merry late-night christmas, - blankku

• Again, effective distance is too wide an interpretation that's why we chose to go with the factory sight settings as an indicator of effective range.

• "Stupid" term? Are you calling native english speaking firearms experts stupid? The "L-shaped" is used in literature like Janes and Soldier of Fortune....

I will research the sight system setup on the Rk 95, and include possible changes if I find it incorrect.

The PSO-1 reference was in the Encyclopedia of Modern Small Arms, published by Bellona which is affiliated with a military research institute. They probably used information from SAKO itself, so it is not fabricated I can assure you. The Finns use the PSO-1 sight so SAKO must have included the option to use it I can only assume. Same goes for the information about the M203, it is information from the manufacturer, so it is relevant.

Regarding the stock, I didn't use the term metallic, it is a metal tubular stock, you called it synthetic which is entirely incorrect. Even if it is coated in vinyl or somekind of plastic it is still a metal design, so I was correct all along.

The bayonet information comes from the same Encyclopedia, if you look at the gas block, it contains a bayonet lug used to mount a bayo.

Cheers. Koalorka (talk) 04:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

- Lol, don't research the sight setup man, I was thinking drunk, the night sights are of course in the intermediate position. Yeah, "L-shaped sight" is a stupid term, but fine, whatever, I can understand the need to use standards. It is only really vaguely L-shaped. You should refer to that encyclopedia generally in the article though, it has no references as is. I still think calling it a metal stock is misleading. You called it "metal" (material) and "tubular" (shape) with no mention of the polymer, sounds pretty metallic to me. OK, calling it polymer is just as incorrect. It has a really thick layer of the same (?) polymer as the handguard and pistol grip on it. But yeah, I don't want to move into wiki standards territory.

Some info about the receiver-mounted siderail: A small strip of rail (not picatinny-style) is attached to the left side of the receiver with three screws, and to that either a VV 2000 mount or a smaller Aimpoint/ACOG mount can be attached (those are the mounts that I know of and have personally seen, anyway), so the sights aren't really directly "mounted on a siderail".

OK, bayonet, grenade launcher and PSO-1 sight, if SAKO says so then fine, include it, I just think it's funny that those configs have never to my knowledge been used in the real world or even approved by the FDF. I know you are thinking standards and I understand that, but for your knowledge the Rk 95 isn't going to any other users than the junkyard, only a few thousand were manufactured 96-97 (IIRC) and the production capability was dismantled. Worn-out Rk 95 are already being salvaged for their buttstocks and fire selectors to upgrade Rk 62s, as a weapon it's pretty dead outside of the relatively new Picatinny rail gas block attachment.

You're obviously more knowledgeable than me on wikipedia standards so I'll leave it up to you if you want to make any changes. From what I've seen in this article they're pretty crap though. Oh and admit the error in the "cleaning kit" bit, the buttstock will only accept one specific type of 3-piece cleaning rod, nothing else. Like the PKM with its oil brush.

Cheers.

edit: My detective work revealed a pretty glaring inaccuracy I think (Jesus christ I really have nothing better to do): The "k" in "Rk 95 TP" should be capitalized! Both the Finnish Defence Forces site here: http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/index.dsp?level=63&equipment=38 AND the Finnish Defence Forces Soldier's Handbook 2006 page 92 capitalize it. I'm not sure but IIRC the FDF small arms handbook does it too. Isn't the rifle really called the SAKO M95 or something and the RK is the FDF designation. I've heard the name M95 somewhere but I don't know. I think it's funny that you don't want to include my section about FDF usage and tie everything to manufacturer statements if you are using the military designation anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blankku (talk • contribs) 09:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

- blankku —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blankku (talk • contribs) 09:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

SIG SG 550 accuracy

I found an elaborate web source on this assault rifle series which also deals with accuracy. The stated accuracy requirements are strict for a military assault rifle. I personally doubt if most normal soldiers are capable of shooting sub 1.3 MOA groups at 300 m outdoors. This kind of accuracy can only be exploited by well trained marksmen. The 10 shot GP90 10 cm at 300 m claim you removed can be found on http://de.wikipedia.org/SIG_550. This is the Misplaced Pages SIG SG 550 article in German, but it does not state any external reference on that. Since lots of Swiss people are native German speakers and lots of Swiss reservists have a SG 550 and an emergency supply of GP90 rounds at home the German article version is quite elaborate. A reference on the Swiss Guard current service arms was easily found. Brazilian use of the SG 550 series I could not verify. It is mentioned in the German article version but without a reference. Francis Flinch 10:10, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I do appreciate you taking this up here but any sort of claims about accuracy will always be subjective, a lot of manufacturers make claims about their factory approval testing and such, but I don't think this should be included in an encyclopedic, technical article. Accuracy can vary widely with the different ammunition, shooting techniques, grouping methods etc. In fact I own a civilian SG 550 hence my interest in maintaining a high standard, it is accurate, however my 24" AR15 (M16) is even more accurate and consistent, and the AR15 is a variant of the M16 service rifle, so again, I think it pointless to include this in the article as it will create debate and eventually the article will be reduced to a sorry state, resembling more a discussion forum for couch commandos rather than dry factual information. Thanks. Koalorka 01:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

SIG SG 552 edits

Please take the time to read through my edits rather than reverting them out of hand. I gave a reason for each edit and they were, in no way, meant to remove content, only to trim redundant or unsourced content. If you're going to be a member of the community, please discuss this stuff. I don't generally revert somebody's edits if they have an established editing record. Talk about it before you revert GOOD edits which aren't overt vandalism or incorrect.--Asams10 06:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I did read carefully through your edits and that's why I chose to revert them. Your edits were either incorrect or removed valid content such as the fact the SG 552's bolt carrier is integrated with the gas piston directly and it is a carbine class weapon. You seem unfamiliar with the AK series. The AK-47 is part of the AK family, and referring to the general family as only the AK-47 is incorrect. Please refrain from further edits before backing up your facts. Thank you. Koalorka 19:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

1) You think my figures are incorrect? You're wrong. 2) You seem completely ignorant of basic facts, such as the fact that the AKM and AK-47 share identical bolt carrier assemblies and, if you had ever handled the two side-by-side, you'd know this. 3) You are also completely ignorant of the world view of Misplaced Pages. Metric entries should be supplemented by American figures. Heck, even SIG does this in their English language manuals. 4) SIG describes it as the "SIG SG 552 COMMANDO" in their literature. If you don't like my edits, ask for a mediation.--Asams10 03:30, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Add imperial measurements to the article, but use the data table. Misplaced Pages does not require every single technical article to have a series of 15 outdated or no longer used measurement units with every description. There's a worldwide system called SI. 2) You seem extraordinarily ignorant to some basic facts about the AK series and this is evident in the chaotic AK-47 entry. The AKM features some significant changes in the bolt/carrier assembly compared to the AK-47, if you'd like a list of these changes, I'd be glad to get back to you with that. 4). SIG does not exist. Which entity are you referring to? SIGArms Inc. of Exeter, NH? BTW, are you an airsofter? Koalorka 05:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I did add the measurements, you REVERTED THEM. There is nothing outdated about an inch, or do you think you're the only country in the world? Airsofter, no. Are you trying to insult my intelligence again? Yeah, list the changes to the AKM bolt carrier assembly from the AK-47 assembly. They are 100% interchangeable in my experience. Are you a bookworm? You don't seem to espouse any practical experience. We can continue to trade insults and barbs or you can relinquish ownership of this article and allow edits.--Asams10 06:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't own the article, it was a self-less contribution. Now what I don't like is lowering the quality of that stub to the abysmal state it was before. Your imperial measurements were included in the main body of the stub too, which seems pointless since they're already listed alongside the specs in the table. Practical experience? Those photos of the SG 552 in the gallery.... That's my personal SG 552. All I ask is you not bring the stub down to its previous state. If you have additional information by all means, use it to elevate stub, but your previous edit did seem pointless. Regards. Koalorka 16:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, you have credentials. That's nice. I've got them too. The 550 series is derivative of the AK. That you doubt this clouds your credibility as an editor. Read this . I'm not the only one who thinks so. Now, having had the occassion to compare my AKM, my SG 551, a dealer's HK G36C, and an friend's FNC, I can say from firsthand experience that the FNC and SIG are CLEARLY derivative. The G36, however, is a completely different design based on the Armalite AR-18 (actually, unused Armalite patents). You love your gun, yes, but ownership of a firearm does not make you an expert on said firearm. The inch measurements stay as an aid to us 'rebels' and the AK reference stays. If you disagree, you'll lose in mediation. SIG??? Maybe not now, but then again, Ruger isn't Ruger either, it's "Sturm". Have a wonderful day.--Asams10 17:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The RPK is a derivative of the AK-47, as is the AK-74 and possibly even Galil or R4 (disputed). The SG 550 is NOT. An airsoft 551 copy that you own does not simulate the internals of a "real steel" as you call it SG 551. The SG 550's locking mechanism was loosely based on the AK concept but that's where the similarity ends. The gas system is dramatically different, as is the piston and recoil assembly layout. Two, totally divergent designs. Your insistence on this matter proves your ignorance ans stubbornness, while I'm committed to quality and fairness. I stand by my statement that you derive your information from questionable Google and internet sources. How about a solid reference backing up your claims about the SG 550's direct lineage from the AK? Saying the AK is a derivative of the AK is analogous to saying the AUG is related to the AR-15 as it is magazine-fed and gas-operated. Koalorka 18:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

BTW you seem like an agitator as your past edit history and suspension indicate. Please abandon your personal frustration for the sake of fairness and quality. Thank you.Koalorka 18:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Good tactic, when your logic is flawed and your position undefendable, attack the party you disagree with. You'd make a good politician. I'm obligated to warn you about the three revert rule and how you've violated it and you might want to stop. The RPK, by the way is a VARIANT of the AK-47, derivative is not a wholly correct term. Didn't I ask you if you were a native English speaker? It sounds like you have a poor technical grasp of the language and that might be the cause of your inability to contemplate that you could be wrong... you just might not understand. I'm out. It's your article. I'll be back to change it back as often as you revert my edits. Good luck. --Asams10 18:57, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

So you're not going to dispute with "higher powers"? I thought your position was flawless, your superior reasoning and wit are self-evident, surly, I don't stand a chance.... BTW, you should know about the 3-revert rule, you've been suspended several times.... And thank you for the words of praise, you seem to emulate my "tactics" well, that is personal attacks after running out of reasonable arguments. Irony seems lost on you. Koalorka 20:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Higher powers? What are you talking about? And I didn't praise you at all (again, are you a native English speaker, you've never answered that?). --Asams10 03:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Category:Rifles of Switzerland

Hello. To add an article to that category, all you need to do is add the ] tag to it. You should not also try to add the article link to the category page; the software will do that automatically. See, in general, Help:Category. Sandstein 05:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, thank you. Couldn't figure that out, cheers. Koalorka 05:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Dragunov article

I don't much like some of the work done on the SVD article recently. "Dragunov Sniper Rifle" is the most accurate translation of the rifle's name - "Dragunov SVD" is kind of redundant, much like "ATM Machine", even if it's a more popularly-encountered phrase on the internet.

My biggest complaints, however, are as follows.

Firstly, the image you posted is a Romanian PSL, also known as an FPK or Romak-3 depending on the source one takes. This is NOT actually a Dragunov rifle, per se - it's based on a Kalashnikov action and the furniture is different, while the Dragunov action is something of a hybrid between the Kalashnikov and Simonov actions (such as found on the SKS or PTRS). You can immediately tell the differences externally due to the Dragunov receiver's unique fire selector, as well as the shape of the area where the stock attaches. This is kind of ironic, actually, since the link to the PSL in the article specifically mentions that the PSL is often mistaken for an authentic Dragunov.

Secondly, the section on the Tigrs is gone. Giving that your average Wikipedian who would like to use one of these fine rifles would be much more likely to encounter a Tigr than the authentic Dragunov, it seems senseless to super-shrink the Tigr section and the useful comparison image.

Speaking of images, you'll have to forgive my cynicism, but, did you really make those images you've uploaded and inserted into the page? They look more like the kind of professionally-edited pictures used on online gun sites and shops, as opposed to a digital camera shot of a rifle in your own home or elsewhere. I know it's not good form to make such accusations, but it seems highly suspicious. Perhaps you'd care to upload a self-made image of just the PSO-1 scope for that section? It would put my mind to rest, among other things.

I'm not just going to start reverting articles I don't like for whatever reason, so I'd like to discuss this with you further before we start moving ahead in whatever directions there are. Thanks. MalikCarr 09:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi, first off thanks for taking this up here prior to amending anything. I moved the entire page to Dragunov SVD as I disagree with the naming scheme chosen for the previous article, an accepted standard in military literature and even Misplaced Pages is the weapon's official, abbreviated military designation - SVD, just like we don't call the M3 submachine gun the full official US-government title "United States Submachine Gun, Cal. .45, M3" or the MP5 - Maschinenpistole 5, it is an official commercial or factory designation yes, and it is mentioned in the article, however this would require that we redefine and rename most military firearm designations, such as the PPS, PPsH, SVT-40, AK, AKM, AK-74 etc. and this is just for Soviet designed weapons.... Now, the chosen title "Dragunov SVD" I'm not satisfied with either, the page should simply be called SVD, but there is a disambiguation link page that carries this name and I'm not sure if I'm authorized to make such changes. But if you can find a way to simply call the page SVD, this would be correct and receive my full support.

Now regarding the photo, I do admit, I made a mistake posting the PSL picture, I realize that it is a divergent design and shares only a superficial, external resemblance with the SVD, I posted it as an interim solution until I could find a proper, higher-resolution photograph of an actual SVD. The photo is a personal property of a friend of mine who sells deactivated guns, he has access to a professional lighting arrangement and I do have his consent, in fact he supplied me with most of these photos. Your suspicions are reasonable. I'm also a licensed firearm owner, so I do occasionally photograph my own firearms for use here.

I agree with you on the Tigr, I will restore most of the content, since it was quite informative and include it into the variant section. I will also restore some of the other small snippets of information my article fails to mention, such as the naming and types of proprietary projectiles developed for the SVD. The only problem is, how do I access the previous page's history? Since this page was moved by simply copy/pasting the information into a blank page without transferring the corresponding history. Looking forward to further informative input! Cheers. Koalorka 17:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I can field this one :) Search for "Dragunov Sniper Rifle" in the search box (without quotes, of course), and you will be redirected to the SVD article. However, a link to the redirect page will be at the top. Click that and then fish through the history for what you need-- it's how I changed the picture back. Jtrainor 19:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

• Alright, move complete. I update the article with previous photos, which are good, but if someone can a find a higher resolution, clear background image of the SVD or SVDS, that would rock. Also included ammunition information as promised and linked the Tiger article. And I managed to successfully move the page under SVD without destroying any other pages. Looks pretty good know, let me know what else I can do. Koalorka 20:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for being diplomatic about this! Usually this type of overture causes a messy edit war, so give yourself a pat on the back for being reasonable.

Anyway, the article looks more or less fine now - we have a proper image, and the article name is more logical. Now, if I were you, I'd put the line about "abbreviation of Snaiperskaya Vintovka Dragunova, or “Dragunov Sniper Rifle”" in the beginning of the article; maybe something like this: "The SVD (Russian: Снайперская винтовка Драгунова, Snaiperskaya Vintovka Dragunova), "Dragunov Sniper Rifle", is a 7.62 mm semi-automatic sniper rifle..." and so on. Given that the Soviet sniper concept more closely represents our own designated marksman setup, you may want to link to the designated marksman article when the text "sniper rifle" is used - this way we preserve the Soviet meaning of the text while still pointing Misplaced Pages users in the proper direction for follow-up research.

Another suggestion I'd posit would be the wording around the PSO-1 - though provided as a standard accessory, the SVD's side rail (can be considered a dovetail mount depending on whom you ask) can accept other Soviet accessories, such as a higher-magnification 8x and 9x scope. I'm not sure if it can mount reflex sights (such as the Kobra) designed for the Kalashnikov, but I think the rail is the same, so who knows. You can check out other Kalashnikov and Dragunov optics here: . My suggestion for the wording around the PSO-1 section would be something along these lines: "The rifle features mechanically adjustable iron sights with a sliding tangent rear sight (with a maximum 1200 m range setting), and is usually issued with a removable PSO-1 optical sight on a standard side rail mount (at a total length of..." and continue as is from there. I would mention that the most common 4x PSO-1 is not the only version, and ones with a higher magnification and relief are manufactured and used.

How's that sound? MalikCarr 00:16, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

• Hey, that sounds pretty reasonable, I was planning on a Russian abbreviation, but had trouble placing it into the text, but you've pretty much nailed it. I believe there was a link to the DMR concept from the previous version, I don't think I got rid of that because I knew it illustrates the purpose of this rifle quite clearly, as a squad support weapon with extended range, rather than a pure "sniper" rifle, but I will entertain your idea. Will also amend the PSO-1 section to more accurately reflect the quick-detachable and modular nature of the mounting system. BTW feel free to add anything you might find my current version is lacking, this is a collaborative effort after all. Cheers. Koalorka 03:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I do not intend to start a dispute with you or anyone on maximal effective range of riflesystems, effective range for me being the maximum range at which a high probability exists to deliberately hit a point target and not a (manufacturer provided) maximum sighting range with optical sight.

Using a sight that is capable of aiming at a distance X does not automatically mean or guarantee the riflesystem to which it is paired can be practically employed at point targets at that distance. In daily life not only the sights of the riflesystem but also lots of other components like the employed ammunition and external and terminal ballistics govern its maximum effective range. Most .308-caliber sniper rifles using 7.62 x 51 NATO (this is the closest western equivalent to the cartridge the SVD uses) or more powerful .300 Winchester Magnum cartridges have maximum ranges stated in the 800 - 1200 m range in Misplaced Pages.

If you or anyone else can provide Doppler radar data of the SVD projectiles external ballistic behaviour (speed-range pairs and dispersion data) out to 1300 m, I and a probably lots of marksmen, engineers and scientists will be most interested in those figures. According to one of the best long range external ballistics simulation tools available for the general public (Prof. Pejsa’s external ballistics mathematical model) the 7N1 projectile fired at 830 m/s V₀ has a supersonic reach of ≈ 940 m under standard atmospheric sea level conditions. Going subsonic is problematic, since around Mach 1 rifle projectiles normally exhibit dispersion problems, but maybe someone designed and produces .308-caliber projectiles for the SVD and proved in front of a Doppler radar that no transonic transition dispersion occurred.

A brief analysis of the PSO-1 telescopic sight manual learns that it sports a 1000 m range finding reticle and a bullet drop compensation (BDC) feature that compensates for bullet drop at different ranges in 50 m increments. When the BDC has reached its maximum range setting (850 m according to the manual, but that is ammunition and environmental and meteorological circumstances dependent) it offers additional chevron marks for extra long range usage in 100 m increments. Logic dictates that if the chevrons where intended for engaging point targets more chevrons would be needed because bullet drop between 1000 and 1300 m is significant (in the order of 14 m or 8 170 cm tall persons for 7N1 cartridges according to Pejsa’s external ballistics mathematical model).

All this does not mean that a SVD or similar riflesystem is not dangerous or useless at 1300 m. I only think that it is questionable if a capable marksman can consistently engage point targets at 1300 m with such a riflesystem. Shooting at area targets (harassment fire, etc.) up to 1300 m seems realistic for a capable marksman.

Note: The G1 ballistic coefficient (BC) used in the 7N1 projectile simulation was 0.498 found at 7.62x54r.net and the deceleration constant was set at its default value 0.5 due to my lack of actual test firing data. If this BC is correct this still makes a < 4 % deviation of the model simulation possible (BC’s are somewhat debatable).

Francis Flinch 17:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, Koalorka, why'd you remove like half the edits I made to the article? I thought they were pretty good... MalikCarr 06:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• I did not notice those were your edits at first, but was surprised to find some of that yours after receiving valuable information on editing the article form you. Not to offend you, but comparing the SVD's appearance to that of the SVT didn't quite seem like your typically high standard of editing. Koalorka (talk) 04:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Just trying to make the article as comprehensive as possible. At any rate, it's been a while since I've reviewed my Hogg books, but I do believe the Dragunov has more in common in terms of gas system with the Simonov and Tokarev rifles than the Kalashnikov. Nevertheless, if you disagree, I won't push the point for the time being. I would like to revert my edits in the header about spelling and furniture, however. MalikCarr (talk) 22:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely agree about the commonality with the SVT, but neither did I mention in my article about it being influenced by the AK. It's a unique weapon in its own right and I think we should leave it at that. Koalorka (talk) 22:20, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure thing it's a unique weapon, but it's unique in the form of an amalgamation of existing designs with original components, and I think this ought to at least bear a passing mention, even if we're not going to name any specific guns. I'll fuck around with it a little later tonight, let me know your thoughts when we get there. MalikCarr 03:11, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

• And what firearm isn't an amalgamation of existing ideas and designs? I think it should stay as is in this regard and in other articles unless it has been confirmed that designers used a certain firearm as a specific model in their work. Koalorka 03:24, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess that's a valid point. I'll just bring up the topic of cosmetic similarities of the receiver and leave it at that, then. MalikCarr 22:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

M16 edits

Can you please explain your recent edit to M16. You removed "Service Rifle" from the description, yet it is still included as a "Service Rifle" in the Service Rifle article. I see no reason why it should have been changed. Thanks for your input. DAMurphy 03:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi, well "service rifle" as a weapon class really has no meaning, it doesn't define the weapon it just indicates that it's operational with a particular force. The M1 Garand was also a service rifle, as was the German Mauser Kar 98k, obviously - completely different designs in terms of layout, design, intended use etc etc. I've seen this in several other US firearm articles, why? Cheers. Koalorka 04:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

OK. That's fair. I cannot disagree with that. Thanks DAMurphy 15:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

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Why don't you get a life?

I don't understand what kind of a pleasure you get in daily reverting "Eurasia" to "Asia" in the Turkey article. Israel is an "Asian" country, but Russia and Turkey are not simply "Asian" because most of their landmass is in the hypothetical continent of Asia (Eurasia is the "factual" continent). They both have territories in Europe, including their largest cities. 151.38.182.17 02:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Turkey is an Asian country. Calling Turkey Eurasian is analogous to saying Spain is an Eurafrican country because of its TINY enclaves on the North African coast. Turkey is socially, culturally and ethnically very distant from Europe, we have nothing in common. Koalorka 15:12, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Webley Revolver photo

Thanks for adding the image of the Webley Revolver to the article's page. I've had to revert it because the image you've supplied is actually a Webley Mk III in .38/200, which is a completely different handgun to the infobox's topic, the .455 calibre Webley Mk VI. It's an understandable mistake, as the various Webley revolvers do look very similar to each other. The image you've added to the Jungle Carbine article is excellent, however- great work, and thanks for contributing it! --Commander Zulu 08:46, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sorry. I was simply told that it was a Webley, not aware of the numerous variants, didn't mean to disrupt the fine article. If I find a proper photo I'll let you approve it first before I make any changes next time. Best regards. Koalorka 10:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Please do not move articles without consulting with project members first

I know they like us to "Be Bold", but I'd greatly appreciate it if you refrained from moving articles without consulting with everyone at WPGUNS or WPMILHIST first- we decided some time ago that the designation for firearm calibres was "AxB (Name)", not "A x B mm (name)". For example, the cartridge 7.62x54R is so named because that's what it's called by almost everyone- NOT 7.62 x 54R mm (which makes no sense at all as a name, FWIW). Your enthusiasm is greatly appreciated, but it might be an idea in future to put changes up for discussion rather than just moving article names, especially as they're a major pain to get moved back to where they should be once they've been moved. --Commander Zulu 14:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi, yeah sorry, should have brought that up first. AxB is OK I guess but you should at least include the metric measurement. I saw the debate regarding naming and sadly most of the people taking part in that are mistaken, therefore I can't really accept the consensus achieved. This should be revisited. I.e. the Soviet 7.62x39, nowhere have I seen this format to describe that particular ammunition. It's just wrong according to the template. It's either 7.62x39 mm or 7.62x39 mm M43. Koalorka 16:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The metric measurement is implied by the decimal point and the multiplication symbol- if we have 7.62x54Rmm, then we'd need to have .303" British, .45" Automatic Colt Pistol, and .577" Snider, which is patently silly and not how those calibres are referred to. Despite whether or not you personally think it's "correct", the fact is the rest of us all reached a consensus on the matter some time ago, and it's not appropriate for you to go around buggering up article names because you personally disagree with it. You're welcome to discuss the matter on the appropriate talk pages (preferably with the WPGUNS and WPMILHIST members as well), of course. As to you never having seen the calibre "7.62x39" referred to as such, I respectfully suggest you find some new reference texts- the only reliable reference using the "7.62 x 39 mm" format I have found is Jane's, who are very much in the minority. Every single reference text in my collection- from Ian Hogg to W.H.B. Smith to Ian Skennerton- uses the AxB format, without the "mm". Bear in mind Misplaced Pages is an international article, and isn't based purely on the way things are done in the US (where the Metric System is not the standard measurement system). I know you feel a lot of the people involved in the discussion were "Mistaken", but the people in the WPGUNS and WPMILHIST projects have a lot of knowledge on the subject- some of us have had works published on various firearms or history related subjects- so I don't think they're likely to be "Mistaken" as much as holding a viewpoint differing from yours. There's a few issues here I've had to accept I can't win on (like including the metric designations next to imperial cartridges, so you get ".303 British (7.7mm)" or ".45 ACP (11.4mm)" in some articles), so don't feel too bad- besides, WP would be a dull place without the occaisonal academic disagreement ;-) --Commander Zulu 04:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding SG 530 operation

Full Circle indicates that roller-delayed blowback applied to only the original SG 530 prototypes. In Small Arms of the World (12th Ed.), a photograph of a field stripped SG 530-1 shows what appears to be a separate gas piston and gas plug. SAotW, JIW (3rd Ed), and FC all specify that the use of gas operation/roller-locking in the SG 530-1 is a departure from the earlier SG 510. JIW and other sources indicate that the change was forced upon the designers by the poor performance of earlier 5.56mm prototypes modeled after the SG 510. D.E. Watters 21:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

That's an interesting twist in the 540's development. However, how does this system operate? If you're familiar with the mechanics behind a roller-locking delayed blowback system you'd find it hard to somehow make use of a gas system. Is the gas piston rod connected to the bolt carrier? If so, you don't need rollers to delay the breech since gas bled off through the gas tube will reduce the pressure inside the barrel and breech eliminating the need for rollers. This is where I'm confused. Would you be able to provide a photograph, I don't have access to Jane's IW. I'm genuinely curious on this one. Regards. Koalorka 21:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I currently don't have a scanner that will work with my computers. (The last computer that worked with it was retired earlier this year.) Really, it shouldn't be hard to understand. The development of roller locking preceded roller delay. It is matter of changing the angles of the locking piece. Back in the '60s, Theodor Löffler of Rheinmetall received US patents for a gas-operated, roller-locked rifle conversion based on the G3. They briefly marketed it as the Rh4. Use Google Patents with the search terms: Rheinmetall Loffler rifle. (As a side note, Löffler was previously employed by CEAM in the late '40s along with Vorgrimmler, developing experimental roller-delayed assault rifles for the French. The French preferred Löffler's designs over Vorgrimmler's. This probably helped to cement Vorgrimmler's decision to leave France to go to work for CETME in Spain.) D.E. Watters 23:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

M249 SAW Redirect

I noticed you were reverted on the 249 redirect, I personaly agree with you on this issue and was wondering if you want to put a disscusion on the Talk about a merge ForeverDEAD 00:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, yeah, there was a discussion and everyone agreed to a merger. Someone reverted it already?! Koalorka 01:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

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MP5 and the United States Military

For your information, all service branches of the United States military uses the MP5 submachinegun, not just the U.S. Navy SEALs. http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyweapons/l/aainfantry2.htm

"The MP5-N fires from a closed and locked bolt in either the automatic or semiautomatic modes. This gun is recoil operated and has a unique delayed roller locked bolt system, a retractable butt stock, a removable suppressor, and illuminating flashlight integral to the forward hand guard. The flashlight is operated by a pressure switch custom fitted to the pistol grip. This is the same basic weapon used by the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team and other world-class counter-terrorist organizations.

The present inventory includes both suppressed and non-suppressed versions of the MP5. The basic configuration of this weapon makes for an ideal size, weight,and capable (accuracy, lethality, reliability, etc.) close quarters battle weapon system.

This weapon is manufactured by Heckler and Koch and is presently fielded to Marine Corps Force Reconnaissance Companies and Marine Security Force Battalions, and Special Operations Units, such as Army Rangers, Delta Force, and Navy SEALS.. It is currently considered the main weapon in the close quarters battle (CQB) environment.

Length: Collapsed stock: 19.29 inches (49 centimeters) Extended stock: 25.98 inches (66 centimeters) Weight: 7.44 pounds (3.38 kilograms) (w/30 round magazine) Bore diameter: 9mm (.355 inches) Maximum effective range: 328.1 feet (100 meters) Rate of fire: 800 rounds per minute

Unit Replacement Cost: $894"

-TabooTikiGod 05:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed that edit because it made it seem that the MP5 was a common issue weapon with regular forces. The above units are specialized, small and have access to whatever weapons they see fit, among them the MP5. Koalorka 22:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Civility

Hi. this edit was inappropriate. There may be times when other users are annoying, but please do not resort to insults and profanity against them, even in cases of vandalism. Please see Misplaced Pages:Civility for a valuable guideline, and Misplaced Pages:Vandalism for suggestions for dealing with particularly problematic users. Hope this helps. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 01:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

SA80

The thing I don't understand is why you removed a lot of the information. In the first sentence you removed '(Small Arms for the 1980s)', you removed all mentions of reliability issues, which believe it or not is fact and needs to be stated. It is not an opinion. Many articles state past problems with weapons such as the M16 rifle. You removed info about its history and the choice of caliber. The variants section was significantly dumbed down without subsections so it looks like a messy group of small paragraphs. What I am finding is you have a problem admitting that there are issues with the weapon. All criticisms have been removed without a trace. It is fact and needs to be addressed. Along with those sections firearm articles should contain, there should also be a 'Service history' section to educate how good the weapon actually is. How many 'opinions' of soldiers do you need before it becomes fact? Hayden120 (talk) 02:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your civility, but again you confuse the purpose of an encyclopedic entry. It is not supposed to be a collection of random experiences and opinions or user testimonies. I do understand that the weapon had problems in its initial configuration, that were later addressed, and this is implied in the L85A2 paragraph, when it lists the improvements. I wouldn't use the M16 article as an example, it contains a LOT of inaccuracies, and the layout is just horrific. We've got a group of guys working on some kind of update which you will probably see in a few weeks. The history was abbreviated into something a little more reasonable and I condensed the number of variant and prototypes listed to those that actually spawned the actual L85/L86. Was it unreasonable to omit another 6 irrelevant and confusing XLXXX model numbers designed for left-handed use? If you insist, I can return portions of the design history and integrate them into the current article. A criticism and "Service History" type section have no place in a encyclopedia entry, they can only be subjective. If you like to discuss weapons then perhaps you can do so on an online forum or discussion board. Regards. Koalorka (talk) 06:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The issues of the SA80 are very well known and they belong in the article. If not, a visitor may read the page and believe there were never any problems. Even if these problems were only in initial models, they should still be in the article. Why are you so concerned about having information about the poor history of the rifle? Do you work for the UK government to help recruit soldiers? Hayden120 (talk) 08:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

These issues are identified implicitly in the L85A2 paragraph which states the reliability problem and the subsequent update to the weapon meant to address these problems. The mechanical parts involved or upgraded have been listed. And no I am not an MOD associate, I'm a German-born student in Canada with an interested in military technology and elevating Misplaced Pages standards. Regards. Koalorka (talk) 23:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I just want to chime in here because a lot of detailed information on the development of the L85 that I had added was removed as well. I understand that separate article for the XL64/XL65 has been created and trimmed and readded the information to fit with the new text. I don't see how its irrelevant when its part of the design process. The fact that left-handed models were developed and subsequently not adopted is a key piece of information in my mind, as are detailed specifics of the design process. On the matter of the criticism of the SA80 series, its part of the history of the system. The criticism and debate is an important part of the historical record relating this system and I feel that it is important to note this. It created a further storm when the cost of upgrading what many felt was a defective system was brought into the picture. I think its important to not let it get out of hand, but as a key piece of the SA80 story the criticisms and the decision to upgrade I feel are essential to presenting a clear picture of the system. Project guidelines concerning these things are not etched in stone, and while criticisms sections for every article are unwarranted, it is a key piece of the SA80 story. This is why we even create articles such as the Stryker vehicle controversy. -- Thatguy96 (talk) 16:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

What in particular do you feel should be restored to the article that is not listed in the SA or L65 and would be relevant to the design phase? I feel that the L65 entry is more than adequate in addressing the convoluted history of these series of prototypes while the SA80 article provides the necessary amount of information on the historical development of what would become the L85. If I missed something please let me know. WRT history, I feel that sociology-related information could be linked through the References or Further reading sections. The point of all this is eliminating subjective content. Cheers. Koalorka (talk) 23:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I've decided to withdraw my input. The article is dominated by a horde of disruptive airsoft couch commandos. You have your criticisms back. Funny, that the previous version has not even the slightest mention of the rifle's operating principle, design or ergonomics. But the crowd has spoken and demanded the "discussion forum" back. Koalorka (talk) 23:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to say I reverted it back to the developed version that can have a good criticisms section put into it that's in keeping with the encyclopedic nature of the article. I do not feel it was productive or even reasonable on your part to just wholesale revert and throw away the work that you and others had done collectively. All that was being fought over was adding criticisms in and instead of figuring out a productive situation you entered into a revert war. I find it somehow ironic that you then consider those of us who modified it without tossing any large portion of your additions to be the ones who are "arrogant" and "stubborn." For what I felt should be in the development section that wasn't covered in the XL64/65 article, simply see what I merged into your new text. -- Thatguy96 (talk) 01:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

That's considerably better but I still cannot agree to the issue of user feedback in an entry, I have brought the issue up with the Wiki Firearms team. I'll will refrain from removing it for now until we establish a consensus. You have a point about the development history, it's quite convoluted but relevant and interesting. The only thing that still bothers me is the aesthetics, the variants should not have their own headings, that I will change. Regards. Koalorka (talk) 04:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Having the sub headings looks neater and more organised. If you don't agree, can you at least add dot-points or something to separate them distinctly? Hayden120 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

FN FNC pictures

How does the page look to you? Both before and after your revert,I know not all pages display the same way for all users, so it might be fine for you in both versions, but at a pretty standard resolution on a 17" monitor, I get a great chunk of whitespace to the left of the infobox, the position of the ipicture in the version you prefer forces all text that comes after the markup for the picture to appear after the infobox, making an awkward looking page. If you don't get this problem in your preferred version and both versions look display cleanly to you, would you consider reverting your revert, in any case I'll have a look at it on some other computers first, to see how it appears on different monitors and at different resolutions. KTo288 (talk) 13:07, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

So far I've displayed it on my 19" desktop and 2 wide screen laptops with no such problems. Could be a combination of your screen size, resolution and text size. Koalorka (talk) 17:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Went to the help desk and apparently its got nothing to do with my monitors, but with my browser and how the browser wraps text around infoboxes, I've been pointed to a how-to page of how to layout a page so that it will display in a way that should be acceptable for all browsers and settings. Sorry if my edits appeared to be perverse. KTo288 (talk) 11:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Civility 2

Hi. I found this edit pretty inappropriate. If you have any good arguments for keeping little flag icons on articles about guns (when pretty much every other project has got rid of them), I'd love to hear them. But implying I personally have to prove something to you, in fact bringing personalities into it at all, is counter-productive. As it happens, I am an admin and have made in excess of 40 000 edits, so I have done a fair bit of encyclopedia writing in my time. But that doesn't matter and it would be the same if I was a newbie; let's discuss the stylistic argument on its merits, period. It's better. --John (talk) 05:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandalise? Why?

Sorry, my english is very poor...

I don't understand your position, in the article for the fire arm MP5, I including a veridic information. In Catalonia, we have a Mossos d'Esquadra, a police force. Mossos d'Esquadra are develop a special intervention group (GEI). He is using the mp-5. Why you quit my information?

Thank you for your answers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xibiru (talk • contribs) 20:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I have no doubt that the Police force you mention in Catalonia use the MP5, but please list this information under Spain, not as a separate entry in Catalonia. Thanks. Koalorka (talk) 21:35, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

But, the list is the users, not states! The administration controlled Mossos d'Esquadra is "Generalitat de Catalunya", not Spain. I don't see the problem. Thanks. xibiru

Xbiru I understand that but if we were to list every city, or province or federal state than we would have a list 4x as long as the entire article! I have nothing against Catalonia or you, just please list it under Spain, because Catalonia is a territory in Spain. Thank you. Koalorka (talk) 19:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Cartridge nomenclature

Hi,

I have seen the users User:Koalorka and User:Lightmouse have been laboriously renaming and accordingly editing and reverting several articles on rifle cartridges from German origin in undoubtedly good faith. If you would like to use the AxB format for metric cartridges (as often seen in Anglo Saxon countries and others wrote is a standing Misplaced Pages convention) in a civilian context that is fine by me, but please consider renaming the articles to 8x68S, etc. so Misplaced Pages readers without specialist knowledge of cartridges do not get confused or be tempted to create unnecessary dangerous situations. If you hate the interspacing in the original European A x B format and choose to get totally rid of interspacing, please consider how 6.5x54MannlicherSchönauer instead of 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schönauer looks for a reader.

It is a pity that in some Anglo Saxon countries European A x B rifle cartridges are allotted colorful nomenclature and mm additions and these find their way into Misplaced Pages. I also realize most editors in Misplaced Pages English are probably not from Europe or can read European languages, so I assume they are unaware a rifle cartridge like an 8x68mm Spitz has never existed in its country of origin or in any other CIP regulated country. Besides being not CIP conform the name 8x68mm Spitz is rather irresponsible to use. The letter S in 8 mm cartridges from German origin provides gunsmiths, ammunition traders and users information on the particular bore dimensions to avoid dangerous situations with bullets that do not have the correct diameter, since several 8 mm bores with varying dimensions are in existence.

The CIP cartridge nomenclature format for metric rifle cartridges is: A x B plus Possible Additions (like R, RS, S, IS, Lapua, Swiss, Messner Magnum, etc.). The addition of the name of a company or person who created a cartridge, country, etc. does occur. These additions sadly do not follow logical rules. Mr. Brenneke for instance actually got the honor of the official addition of his name for creating the 6,5 x 64 Brenneke and 9,3 x 64 Brenneke (CIP uses the , as decimal separator, but that looks awkward in English). To complicate matters there really is no 7 x 64 Brenneke or 7 x 64 mm (Brenneke), etc.. CIP only knows a 7 x 64 without any further additions. The sad part for Mr. Brenneke is that the 7 x 64 happens to be his commercially most successful cartridge design.

Your, mine, a gun writers, Misplaced Pages’s or the ideas of anybody else on European rifle cartridge nomenclature is utterly irrelevant in CIP member states. CIP rulings have arbitrary legal status there for all civilians. Military organizations like NATO can deviate from CIP, since governmental organizations do not have to comply with CIP rulings and standards and can do whatever the seem fit with fire arms and ammunition.

If you have serious questions on how CIP names a cartridge, I can look it up on the CIP CD-ROM. Sadly copyright prevents me from adding any official CIP lists, data sheets , drawings, etc. from that CD-ROM to Misplaced Pages. If you are interested in purchasing a CIP CD-ROM, I advise you to contact the CIP approved Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House in the United Kingdom.

Francis Flinch (talk) 18:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I am from Europe and I previously listed cartridge names in A x B mm NAME format, but WP:MILHIST came to consensus whereby all articles on English Misplaced Pages that use the metric system would be AxBmm NAME. You do provide some valid points and I say you should make your case on that debate. It is not up to me, I'm just enforcing the standard and trying to make this a standard. Koalorka (talk) 18:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The WP:MILHIST discussion I read was very military cartridges orientated. I have made the nomenclature contribution in Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Firearms. For an universal encyclopedia like Misplaced Pages, that tries to use verifiable facts from reliable sources, I think it would be nice to use the cartridge nomenclature stated by the civilian ammunition standards organization (CIP / SAAMI) responsible for the country of origin. Arguments like that an European cartridge elsewhere or in another language might be differently named are not very sound, since the United Kingdom is a CIP member state. How we treat Chinese cartridges etc. remains unclear, but maybe China has its own ammunition standards organization. Francis Flinch (talk) 20:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Well Francis that's the whole point of standards, but I do see your point about the obscure 8 mm Spitz and other wildcat cartridges. Feel free to revert some of those as long as they adhere to WP:MILHIST, so the AxBmm convention would remain. Koalorka (talk) 20:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I saw you changed the name of an article to 7.62x53mmR. I noticed this is not entirely according to the AxBmm NAME format. Did the format WP:MILHIST preferred change recently and where can one find further reading on this WP:MILHIST consensus? The 8mm Spitz must be a term of art. The 8 x 60 (S, R, RS) as CIP terms them are CIP ruled cartridges and can be found on the CIP CD-ROM. Francis Flinch (talk) 20:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

9x19mm Parabellum

I noticed you redirect 9 mm Luger Parabellum to 9x19mm Parabellum per this discussion. While this isn't bad, it's advisable to move the page instead of copying and pasting it into a new article (this preserves the history and talk pages). --Philip Laurence (talk) 06:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, yes I do know but I could not move it with the move feature as an article by that name already existed, so I had to copy and paste. But I also copied the Talk section with every article I was forced to move this way. Koalorka (talk) 06:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Well on the move page it says if the page already exists you have to request a move. --Philip Laurence (talk) 20:43, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes, to allow the history to be synchronized. Well if Ana Nim hadn't so hastily thrown it back there would be no problem. Koalorka (talk) 20:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The cartridge was never known as 9x19mm Parabellum. It has been known as 9x19mm, 9mm NATO, 9mm Parabellum, and 9mm Luger, among others. It is simply incorrect to combine 9x19mm with 9mm Parabellum and come up with a new name sui generis. Please cite some authority that this is a correct name before reverting corrections.--Ana Nim (talk) 17:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

How is it that almost every source of reference literature has it listed as such (with small variances), the slides on my Walther, HK and Glock pistols read 9x19mm Para, 9mm Parabellum etc. The official name is 9x19mm Parabellum in Europe where the cartridge originated. This is also the most logical choice for a name since the names you list are mostly abbreviations of the full 9x19mm Parabellum designation, used for convenience (since it isn't always possible to list the full name on a short pistol slide etc.). This has been debated and agreed on through consensus. Koalorka (talk) 17:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no consensus and there is none on the MILHIST page. Check out the discussion in the WikiFirearms Project page and you'll see that not only is there no consensus on standard names, the issue is still being discussed. So, you're not complying with a resolved consensus, you're trying to create one where none exists. As to what the slides of pistols say, that is hardly authoritative. Glock long marked slides ".40" because they did not want to acknowledge the S&W name in the cartridge, and mark ".357" so as not to acknowledge SIG. That doesn't change the names of the cartridges. --Ana Nim (talk) 18:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

We did come to a conclusion several weeks ago with the metric system. AxBmm NAME. This is the most universal format we could compromise on. Don't get me wrong, I used to be a huge proponent of A x B mm NAME but there was too much opposition, this is a compromise and it is not inaccurate, so that's what we're going with. Koalorka (talk) 19:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry... was being a bit of a dick

The British Ministry of Defence designates the L86 as a 'Light Support Weapon'. The Minimi is their 'Light Machine Gun'(first link a search found here) There have been edits to this effect, wouldn't really be surprised if you hadn't checked up on them, no offence intended. Modern equipment and uniform of the British Army also worth checking. John Nevard (talk) 07:43, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh I'm very much aware of the fact that they call it the L86 LSW, but it still is a light machine gun class weapon, I thought I made that clear in my last edits. Just like the Americans have a Squad Automatic Weapon, which is a MINIMI light machine gun. And the L86 is by all means a light machine gun, it's optimized for sustained fire, doesn't necessarily have to be belt-fed in the typical machine gun sense. Koalorka (talk) 07:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure, it comes under the traditional definition of light machine gun, but it's used in the role of Light Support Weapon as designated by the UK MOD, and is named as such. John Nevard (talk) 09:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Uh, John, yes exactly. Where did I say that it wasn't? Koalorka (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, it could have been where you constantly reverted to a version that described it as the 'L86 Light Machine Gun? John Nevard (talk) 07:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I think there has been some misunderstanding. Koalorka (talk) 07:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

5.56 mm

Hi there, I noticed you made some edits to the Singapore-made small arms articles. Here we don't use the 5.56 mm NATO round; we still use the older non-NATO M193 round. One reason might be the massive inventory of 1 in 12" M-16s produced under license about 20-30 years ago. Perhaps you might want to look into that? --Rifleman 82 (talk) 03:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I know that 5.56x45 mm redirects to the NATO article, but it might be misleading to say that we actually use the NATO round. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 03:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, the M193 is also a NATO round. The 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge includes both the 62 grain SS109/M855 and the 55 grain M193. Cheers. Koalorka (talk) 03:25, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I thought that only the 62 gr round was considered "NATO". --Rifleman 82 (talk) 06:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

No problem, the 62 grain is the latest NATO standard, but many still use the lighter 55 grain with older rifles that have slower twist rates in the barrel rifling. The SS109 or M193 designation refers to the bullet type, likewise there are tracer and incendiary rounds that all belong in the 5.56x45mm NATO family. Koalorka (talk) 06:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Page move

Thank you for your contributions to Misplaced Pages. It appears that recently you carried out a copy and paste page move from 5.56 x 45 mm NATO to 5.56x45mm NATO. Please do not move articles by copying and pasting them because it splits the article's history, which is needed for attribution and is helpful in many other ways. In most cases, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page. If there is an article that you cannot move yourself by this process, follow the instructions at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. Also, if there are any other articles that you copied and pasted, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Misplaced Pages:Cut and paste move repair holding pen. Thank you. —Random832 19:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Revision history of 7.5x55mm Schmidt Rubin

Can the users Koalorka and/or Lightmouse please restore the history page that got erased by article whist renaming the article to its current 7.5x55mm Schmidt Rubin title.Francis Flinch (talk) 19:30, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

When someone performs a copy-and-paste rename, as Koalorka did, instead of properly moving the article to the desired name or requesting a move at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves, it messes up the history and requires an admin to fix. I will merge the histories. Koalorka, please do not perform copy-and-paste movies. TomTheHand (talk) 19:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry wasn't aware of that and then Lightmouse reverted it without consultation, making it even more confusing. Koalorka (talk) 19:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Your move from the original title (7.5 x 55 Schmidt Rubin) to 7.5x55mm Schmidt Rubin was fine, but then when Lightmouse moved it to 7.5 x 55 mm Schmidt Rubin you should have used the move button to move it back, or listed it at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves, instead of copying and pasting the content from the new name onto the redirect at the old. TomTheHand (talk) 20:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXI (November 2007)

The November 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot 02:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

PP-90 smg

If you have any other sources for the PP-90 please add them to the article. But without them please do not just revert edits that fit the known sources. —MJBurrage • TALK • 03:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to list the book I used. Will have the bibliography up tomorrow. Koalorka 05:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

SA80

Hi, I noticed you undid my edit here. Care to explain why? Help:Reverting explains that we really only use this blunt tool to combat vandalism. As my edit was not vandalism, I invite you to self-revert. Best wishes, --John (talk) 22:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

You removed the flag icon despite opposition from the entire Wiki Firearms group. Koalorka (talk) 22:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Rubbish. That still wouldn't make the revert ok, even if it were true, which it isn't. Can you please restore the other changes you removed from the article, or I will have to take this further. Thanks. --John (talk) 22:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with your other edits but you have no support to remove the flag. Koalorka (talk) 22:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I disagree with you about the flag, but restoring my other edits will prevent me from having to take this further. Please be more careful in future. Thanks. --John (talk) 22:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean you disagree? You disagree with the fact that you have absolutely no support from the firearms editing community to remove the flag icons? I don't know how to restore parts of an edit, if at all possible. Koalorka (talk) 23:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Then I will restore the edit myself. Please, please in future do not revert good faith edits. In general don't do things if you don't understand what you are doing. Thanks. --John (talk) 23:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It would seem that you fail to comprehend the concept of consensus. Nice try at a mild insult though. Thanks! Koalorka (talk) 23:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Didn't see any insult there. It's very simple. Don't revert except in cases of vandalism, and everything will be fine. --John (talk) 23:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Super Étendard image

I'm not sure what exactly you were trying to do with the series of edits that began here. There was nothing wromg with theimage to begin with, as far as I can tell. All your changes involved the same file, so you weren't trying to change the image to a new one. What puzzles me is why you left the image field blank when your were finished, per this edit.

There's nothing wrong with experimenting, but it's probably better if you use the preview feature instead of saving your changes, then it would be easier to just not save it if it doesn't work. In the future, please be a little more considerate, no matter how you make your changes, and restore the last good version rather than leaving a mess for someone else to clean up. If you don't know how to fix something, it's better to ask on the talk page for help, rather than just leave the mess. Thanks. - BillCJ (talk) 20:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I just wanted to resize it to a standard 300 px, but ended up fudging the entire thing up. Feel free to revert the edit. Koalorka (talk) 20:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

That's OK, just try to be more careful. I din't think you were vandalizing. Btw, the Aircraft Infobox sizing is set on the template page. It is actually already at 300px, so you don't have to do anything to it to make it 300px. It's different than some other templates where you can change the size on each article page. Confusing, huh? - BillCJ (talk) 20:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, that would explain why I couldn't get it to work. Thanks for clearing that up. Koalorka (talk) 20:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Flag template

Hey Koalorka! I'm writing to tell you about {{USN flag}}, which is a template that was developed to put flags into U.S. Navy infoboxes. Though we used to put the jack onto articles, current consensus is to use the ensign. The jack is only flown while the ship is in port, so the ensign is considered a better choice. When the template is used, instead of a specific image file, it's possible for all ship articles that use it to reflect current consensus on what flag should be used. Please do not replace uses of {{USN flag}} with images of the jack. If you would like to talk about what flag is used, and potentially change the consensus, please come to WP:SHIPS and post about it. TomTheHand (talk) 04:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the update! I wasn't quite sure what the new standard was, I will replace the jack with the USN flag in all my maritime edits. I have no issue with the current policy. Cheers. Koalorka (talk) 05:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

No problem! I also wanted to comment on the infobox that you're putting onto articles. You're using {{Ship table}}, which was renamed to {{Infobox Ship}} in April 2006, so you're hitting a redirect unnecessarily. It would be better to use Infobox Ship directly, but you may also want to consider reading about the current ship template at {{Infobox Ship Example}}; WP:SHIPS considers Infobox Ship deprecated. TomTheHand (talk) 15:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

10-4, will clean that up. Regarding the current template, if it has been deprecated, which one is most appropriate? Thank you. Koalorka (talk) 18:26, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

{{Ship table}} no longer exists; it's just a redirect to {{Infobox Ship}}. {{Infobox Ship}} is deprecated, but it supports most of the functionality that people need, so many people still use it and I'm not going to tell anyone they need to stop. However, the multi-template infobox described at {{Infobox Ship Example}} is the current infobox. TomTheHand (talk) 18:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. No need to support outdated templates, I have no problem applying the latter. Koalorka (talk) 18:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

If you have any questions about using the new infobox, let me know! I can probably help out. TomTheHand (talk) 18:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Unit fixes

Sorry to keep harassing you! In this edit, you changed "39,400 tons (40,032 t)" to "39,400 tons (40,032 tons)". The original text is specifying a displacement in long tons, followed by the displacement in metric tons, or tonnes, the abbreviation for which is "t". They're different units, and t shouldn't be expanded out to "tons". TomTheHand (talk) 19:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, I see that you're unlinking dates. When dates are linked, it is possible for the Wiki software to automatically format them according to the reader's preference, so the manual of style on dates and numbers states that they should always be linked. Note that that only applies to month-day combinations (like December 3 or 17 March), or month-day-year combinations (like October 11, 1776 or 23 February 1962), not individual years or months. TomTheHand (talk) 19:15, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

...And the manual of style also states that non-breaking spaces should be used between numbers and units, so that they don't split over line breaks. A non-breaking space is specified like this: & nbsp; but without the space between the ampersand and the text. Please don't remove these. In general, if you see something that looks strange to you, but it's widely used, please try to find out why it's done like that instead of immediately removing it. TomTheHand (talk) 19:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. Don't want to be seen as disruptive here. I'll change back what I can. Koalorka (talk) 19:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

On the date issue, it would appear that the folks over at the manual of style for dates and numbers are in the process of abolishing their longstanding "link all dates" guideline; might want to hold off on touching dates either way for now! TomTheHand (talk) 22:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Kbkm wz. 2003

A tag has been placed on Kbkm wz. 2003 requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section A1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Misplaced Pages:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the article (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the article's talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. VivioFateFan 06:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Kbkm wz. 2003

A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Kbkm wz. 2003, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Misplaced Pages is not" and Misplaced Pages's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you agree with the deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please add {{db-author}} to the top of Kbkm wz. 2003. —BoL @ 06:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

FN SCAR images

I don't know if I should really go asking for more, Gabe Bailey was very generous for sending those images to me. I was actually very surprised that someone bothered to respond, usually anything not to do with sales, questions or problems is ignored by most firearm manufacturers. I don't know if asking for anymore might be considered greedy. You can have a try if you want, either send an email to info@fnhusa.com or straight to Gabe at gabeb@fnhusa.com. Hayden120 (talk) 11:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right, that's very kind of them, I wouldn't want to abuse their generosity. Good work, they look great. Koalorka (talk) 06:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Why move thumbnails from left to right ?

Why are you moving photo thumbnails from left to right side, for all the British artillery ? The whole point of putting thumbnails on the left side is that they then appear correctly aligned with the text to which they apply. Now they appear at the end, below the infobox, far away from the relevant text, which is useless. Also, why have you removed all the center tags ? Also, why have you remove flag templates for USA ? You are wrecking these articles visually and haven't actually contributed anything to them. Rcbutcher (talk) 03:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, this is the reason why: Manual of Style: Images. Generally right-side alignment is preferred but if causing unreasonable clutter or distortions, can be staggered to the left. Image thumbnails have a default size, so no need to manually adjust the size. The centering doesn't really serve a purpose. The project wide standard is to simply input the text without any additional tags apart from links and stylistic formats. I'm simply trying to standardize articles within the WikiProject Milhistory. Please don't view this as an outsider dictating style for you, we certainly appreciate the contributions, just trying to bring a little order into the chaos. Regards. Koalorka (talk) 04:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for my aggressive tone, thanks for your tolerance. The problem with right side thumbnails is that they get placed after the infobox, which can be pretty long, and hence they lose their alignment with the text they are illustrating. This looks like a bug in the Wiki design to me - I think |right| should place them inside the main body of the text i.e. to the left of the infobox. regards. Rod.Rcbutcher (talk) 04:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

No worries. I guess the right alignment works better with longer articles. If you feel it is too disruptive, feel free to revert said images back. Koalorka (talk) 04:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

M-1 Carbine Revert War

The M1 carbine article is currently on lock down. An administrator has requested some discussion from memeber of the Firearms Wikiproject. Can you take a look? Sf46 (talk) 19:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter — Issue XXII (December 2007)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter Issue XXII (December 2007)
Project news The Intelligence task force has been created. The contest department has completed its ninth month of competition. The top scorer this month is Blnguyen, with 22 points, followed by Dreamafter, with 8 points, and Redmarkviolinist, with 6 points. Blnguyen also remains the overall leader, with 162 points in total. All project members are encouraged to submit the articles they're working on as entries. Help with converting deprecated infoboxes is needed; any assistance is welcome! {{WPMILHIST}} now supports an explicit tag (class=DAB) for marking disambiguation pages.	Articles of note New featured articles: Battle of Albuera Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081) Battle of the Gebora Constantine II of Scotland Francis Harvey Vasa (ship) Wulfhere of Mercia New A-Class articles: 1962 South Vietnamese Presidential Palace bombing Evacuation of East Prussia
Current proposals and discussions A discussion about minimizing terminological ambiguity has begun.
Awards and honors Blnguyen has been awarded the WikiChevrons with Oak Leaves in recognition of his efforts in improving the quality of articles related to Vietnamese military history, including the creation of numerous A-Class articles. Woodym555 has been awarded the WikiChevrons with Oak Leaves in recognition of his outstanding work on topics related to the Victoria Cross, notably including the creation of featured articles, featured lists, and a featured topic. For their outstanding efforts as part of Tag & Assess 2007, Bedford, TomStar81, and Parsival74 have been awarded the gold, silver, and bronze Wikis, respectively.
Tag & Assess 2007 Tag & Assess 2007 is now officially over, with slightly under 68,000 articles processed. The top twenty scores are as follows: 1. Bedford — 7,600 2. TomStar81 — 5,500 3. Parsival74 — 5,200 4. FayssalF — 3,500 5. Roger Davies — 3,000 6. Ouro — 2600 7. Kateshortforbob — 2250 8. Cromdog — 2,200 9. BrokenSphere — 2000 9. Jacksinterweb — 2,000 9. Maralia — 2,000 12. MBK004 — 1,340 13. JKBrooks85 — 1,250 14. Sniperz11 — 1100 15. Burzmali — 1000 15. Cplakidas — 1000 15. Gimme danger — 1000 15. Raoulduke471000 15. TicketMan — 1000 15. Welsh — 1000 15. Blnguyen — 1000 Although the drive is officially closed, existing participants can continue tagging until January 31 if they wish, with the extra tags counting towards their tally for barnstar purposes. We'd like to see what lessons can be learned from this drive, so we've set up a feedback workshop. Comments and feedback from participants and non-participants alike are very welcome and appreciated.
To stop receiving this newsletter, or to receive it in a different format, please list yourself in the appropriate section here.

Note: This newsletter was automatically delivered. Regards from the automated, Anibot (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

RPK-74

Akurat mam zupełnie inne IP, w dodatku stałe i należące do ŚTK a nie Tiscali UK Ltd :P A RPK-74 ma mniej wspólnego z RPK niż AK-74 z Tantalem. Ale na en-wiki jest tyle bzdur że jedna więcej nie zawadzi, choć jak widać nie tylko mnie ta bezsensowna integracja wadzi :) Nemo5576 (talk) 14:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Aha, przeparaszam, musialem zle spojrzec na liste. Bzdur? Haha, usmiejesz Sie jesli podam Tobie zrodlo skad zaczerpalem tekst na artykul o RPK/RPK-74.... :D Koalorka (talk) 16:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

No to poraź mnie informacją jakie zespoły RPK i RPK-74 są wymienne :)? To różne bronie, o zbliżonej konstrukcji, ale mające ze sobą tyle wspólnego co np. AKM i AK-74. Je też planujesz zintegrować? Nemo5576 (talk) 16:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Wymiennosc czesci jest ponad 80%, z tym, ze sa to przewaznie sprezyny, kolki itp. Jest to ten sam system broni co RPK, tylko zmodernizowany wspolnie z karabinkiem AK-74, Sowieci uwazaja go za bron pochodna od RPK. Samo WAT oraz Ryszard Wozniewicz go tak klasyfikuja... Koalorka (talk) 17:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Wymienność części pomiędzy AKM i RPK oraz AK-74 i RPK-74 jest pewnie jeszcze większa. RPK-74 jest w takim samym stopniu pochodną RPK jak AK-74 pochodną AKM. Równie dobrze możesz zintegrować wszystkie artykuły a pochodnych AK-47. To dobiero będzie kobyłą ;) Nemo5576 (talk) 18:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Owszem, mozna, ale wtedy bylby kolos wielkosci paru TerBajtow jak w przypadku M16. Prowadze podobne polemiki na temat podzialow FN MAG oraz M240, MINIMI/M249, M16 na M16A1, A2 oraz AK-47 na AKM. Koalorka (talk) 18:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Z MAGiem to można różnie. Ja uważam że wersje amerykańskie wyewoluowały w odrębną rodzinę i zasługują na własny artykuł. Podobnie z Minimi. M16 to odział raczej z wygody niż z rzeczywistej potrzeby. A AK-47 i AKM to różne karabiny. Podobne, ale właściwie w każdym podzespole widać różnice. Nemo5576 (talk) 18:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Jesli taka jest Twoja opinia nt. AKM moglbys sie wypowiedziec na stronie Talk:AK-47. Potzebne sa nam glosy, sporo osob sie nam sprzeciwia, wiekszosc nie widziala ani AK ani AK zywcem ale sie wypowiada i to zdecydowanie. Koalorka (talk) 18:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Wypowiadać się nie będę bo mój angielski wyjątkowo nędzny jest ;) Różnice pomiędzy AK, a AKM pewno znasz więc je wymień a to mówi samo za siebie. Większość podzespołów jest ze sobą zamienna, ale różni się konstrukcją. Nawet bagnety czy celowniki tych karabinów są różne. Jak chcesz przekopiuj bibliografię do kbkm wz. 2003 z pl-wiki, właśnie ją uzupełniłem :) Nemo5576 (talk) 18:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Nie szkodzi, potrzebny jest nam jeszcze conajmniej jeden glos, wstaw SUPPORT i sie podpisz i wystarczy. :D Koalorka (talk) 20:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Glock pistols edit warring

Please stop contributing to the edit war over Glock pistol articles. Please see discussion on Talk:Glock pistols. Further widespread edit warring will lead to blocks against participants. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:35, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not an edit war, it's reverting the vandalism and arbitrary reversals by MalikCarr, we had a consensus that was established over the period of several weeks. I will revert all of the reversals. Koalorka (talk) 20:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It is an edit war and I and other admins will block you if you continue. Use the talk page. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Why would you do that? Instead of pestering serious contributors to the firearms community why don't you introduce Mr. Carr to the concept of consensus? You have no authority to block me, I was not involved in any edit warring I am simply executing policy. Mr. Carr made his argument in the discussion, but support for the merges overruled any voices of dissent. There is nothing else to say that hasn't been already argued, so further discussion will not serve any purpose as Mr. Carr has chosen to override the consensus with his arbitrary edits. Please look into his history, he is rather notorious for it. Koalorka (talk) 20:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policy on edit warring clearly gives any administrator authority to intervene and stop edit wars. This clearly qualifies. Stop making widespread changes. Go to the talk page and discuss it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, I have previously not taken part in any edits of the Glock articles so I have by definition not "warred" with anyone about anything. Your accusation of me "warring" does not give you the right to arbitrarily block me. We had discussed this over weeks, Asams10, I and others made our arguments and garnered support. Mr. Carr presented one inarticulate argument at some point and now he has ignored our hard-earned consensus altogether by engaging in an edit war. I am executing policy, we had informed Mr. Carr to make his case, which he hasn't. Please I urge you to engage Mr. Carr with the concept of community and consensus before blocking serious contributers. Asams10 is FAR more credible than Malik WRT firearms knowledge, Mr. Carr has little credibility here. Koalorka (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I am rather familiar with the discussion that happened on Talk:Glock pistol. I participated in it. There was not a consensus to merge. Asams10 merged boldly, and had a plurality of support, but Malik's objection requires further discussion rather than attempting to force changes. Attempting to force the changes without consensus or even further discussion on the talk page is the definition of an edit war. If two sides form up in an edit war, edits by more than one person together count under three revert policy and all editors participating in the reversion fight can be blocked. You are welcome to help try and resolve the discussion on the talk page and form a real consensus there. Don't short circuit that by edit warring the articles further. It's not OK, and doing it right in front of an administrator is sort of foolish... Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

You made two further reverts after my warning of 20:44 above; any more reverts after this final warning and I will issue a 24 hour block on your account. Stop now and discuss on Talk:Glock pistol. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Glock 38

First of all, I haven't read your consensus because no-one has pointed the location out to me, and I can't be bothered seeking it out, for a couple of very simple reasons: 1. What you're doing is tantamount to deleting the articles of concern without an AFD. 2. Wikiprojects do not dictate guidelines, you'll find that articles fall under wp:product and as such, this is the basis I am reverting Glock 38 under. Nor does Wikiproject firarms (or whatever project you're in) own the articles. 3. I don't think that the Glock 38 is any more or less notable than any other glock, it is just the pistol article that I have been involved in editinge... so, until you create an AFD to delete and redirect, i will keep reverting. -- Ļıßζېấשּׂ~ۘ Ώƒ ﻚĢęخ (talk) 22:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The articles are not being deleted. Unique content from each of the variants will be recycled and reused in the main Glock pistol article. Cheers. Koalorka (talk) 22:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, a single article isn't the best way to represent 30 or so different seperate different pistols with all their technical and historical data. Secondly, what you are doing is no different from deletion, so if you want to delete and redirect, take to AFD. -- Ļıßζېấשּׂ~ۘ Ώƒ ﻚĢęخ (talk) 22:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

No need. We have widespread support. All the variants are still part of the same family, if you knew anything about the pistol you would know. I don't care how many variants there, are, if there were 100, we still wouldn't dedicate a page to each one for they are essentially the same firearm with a few different components to accommodate the different calibers. Koalorka (talk) 23:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Harassing you?

Where on earth did you get this idea? I don't get why you are so sensitive, it makes editing pages quite awkward. And saying that you will go around editing all my inaccurate edits is not fair and is a very immature response. Misplaced Pages is run on a community; it is not a one-man operation. You have to get along with others. I was just going along with what the others wanted and reverted the merge. Don't take it out on me please. Secondly, I find it strange that you want to split the AK-47 and AKM articles when there is less difference between those two than there is there AK-74 and the AKS-74U. Hayden120 (talk) 05:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

If that's your view of the AK family than you have clearly never handled one. I spoke to Izhmash on several occasions and the AKM is an entirely different firearm according to them, from handling and characteristics to the production methods employed. They also agree with me on the AKS-74U, it's a short AKS-74. The people that spoke out against the merge are plain wrong and are rather relying on some gut instinct rather than any factual knowledge or familiarity with the AK family. We also use to have a quite large separate entry on the AKS-74, how do you explain that? It's equally illogical as is the AKS-74U split. Koalorka (talk) 06:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Should we then merge the M4 and the M16 articles? They have very similar characteristics. Hayden120 (talk) 06:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, in all honesty it should be. More than half of the M4 page is pop gun-babble and resembles an online armchair commando discussion more than an encyclopedic article. It's lower down on my priority list. I believe Asams10 had already proposed the merge and it was mercilessly shot down by the misinformed masses and anime fans/counter-strike kiddies. Koalorka (talk) 06:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, I don't see any 'pop gun-babble' nor do I see any 'online armchair commando discussion'. Could you please cite me some examples? (P.S. There is no need to stereotype either thank you.) Hayden120 (talk) 06:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Just re-read it, I was probably thinking of the Bushmaster commercial. Koalorka (talk) 06:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Uhhu, well I can't see any and you aren't showing me any in either the Bushmaster M4 or M4 Carbine articles, so please don't make statements you can't defend. I remember you had the idea of splitting up the M16 page, has that idea been scratched? By the way, I've noticed you've been adding instructions on how to load firearms (such as the AKM article); we used to have sections like this until guidelines were set that Misplaced Pages isn't supposed to have this. Apparently all instructional writing must be in Wikibooks. (Also, these 'armchair commando' comments are not really relevant if you do not have a military background. Have you been in any armed forces? A civilian shooter could be regarded as armchair commando.) Hayden120 (talk) 07:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I have abandoned the idea of the M16 split, it's beyond my scope and the opposition was to severe. The instructions on the AKM are not authored by me, it's what remained of the page when it was renamed from the previous AKMS (Polish variant). I haven't had the chance to write the AKM article yet. Koalorka (talk) 07:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, and lucky you with an easy access to lots of firearms. If only it was that easy in Australia; semi-autos are effectively completely prohibited. I haven't got the luxury of waltzing into a gun store and picking up a couple of AR-15s. Handling a firearm is a great privilege for me. The irony is, most of the guns I've handled are fully automatics such as the MP7 which most people, even living with the loosest of laws, would dream of touching. Hayden120 (talk) 08:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of the restrictive laws is Australia, that the public reacted to a deranged man with an AR-15 by punishing all of its law-abiding gun owners is very unfortunate and irrational. Of course the ban did nothing to prevent violent crime, offenders have access to guns as always from the black market and don't concern themselves with some useless piece of legislation. Same situation in the UK... Canada where I live has some restrictive laws too, but does give us access to some neat toys providing we have a range membership. Incidentally I was offered the MP7 in semi-automatic of course for $2500. Although it's pretty useless as a defensive or target firearm I think I'll pick it up for the novelty factor. I also have your standard array of AR-15's (M4 clones and a Mk 18 clone), Glock 17, HK USP, P7, Benelli M4 Super 90, B+T TP9 and my favorite - a semi SG 552. Cheers. Koalorka (talk) 15:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I know I wasn't invited here, but I must point out that Misplaced Pages did not use to have a large entry on the AKS-74, it was one sentence long, on how it had a different stock.--LWF (talk) 01:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Glock pistol

I know you're sick of me pestering you, but could you please put the references back that you removed? There are now no references in the variants section. Also, some of the variants such as the Tasmanian version were removed. Hayden120 (talk) 23:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

They will all be restored, no worries. The Tasmanian variant will go into users. I'm working on it. Koalorka (talk) 01:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Germany Invitation

Hello, Koalorka! I'd like to call your attention to the WikiProject Germany and the German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board. I hope their links, sub-projects and discussions are interesting and even helpful to you. If not, I hope that new ones will be. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Germany | finger on pulse Misplaced Pages:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board | finger on pulse

--Zeitgespenst (talk) 03:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

MP5K merger

I'm a little curious why you did this again; the MP5K is not a simple stockless MP5 - the bolt and receiver are shorter at the back, and the lighter bolt leads to higher rate of fire.

Simple shorter/longer barrel or stock changes are covered by the WP:Guns variants in same article policy, but changes in the mechanism (new shorter bolt) aren't. The trigger group is the only common major part between the MP5 and MP5K models.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, features already mentioned in detail on the MP5 page. If your criteria for new gun article are dimensional similarities/differences of the bolt/carrier mechanism, I'd say we're for some dramatic changes to how our articles have been structured.. Koalorka (talk) 23:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not already mentioned in detail on the MP5 page. Losing stuff like this in "mergers" is why you and Asams have so many people pissed off at you right now. Please go read the details of the MP5 article. It mentions shorter barrel (check, not a qualifier for different article), no stock (check, not a qualifier for different article), shortened cocking handle (check, not a qualifier...), and vertical handgrip. No mention of the shorter receiver and bolt mechanism. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

It does now.--LWF (talk) 00:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. And I apologize for berating the case rather than just fixing it - but this sloppyness is causing much stress and dispute. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I checked the final version before the merger, and I didn't find any mention of the lighter, shorter bolt and receiver. Not quite what I would call sloppiness, but now the information is available, so good work has been done anyway.--LWF (talk) 00:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:NPA

Please do not make personal attacks as you did at Talk:Stormfront (website). Misplaced Pages has a strict policy against personal attacks. Attack pages and images are not tolerated by Misplaced Pages and are speedily deleted. Users who continue to create or repost such pages and images, especially those in violation of our Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons policy, will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Thank you. Yahel Guhan 03:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm well aware of that policy thank you. You should however consider toning down your racist rhetoric. Koalorka (talk) 03:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Complaint

A complaint was brought forth against you here. In my opinion the complaint bears weight. Your comments do appear to violate WP:NPA. I'd like to inform you that users have been blocked in the past. As a fellow wikipedian, who would like to see you stay on wikipedia and make a positive contribution, I advise you to keep your comments in accordance with WP:NPA. Note that you are free (and encouraged) to leave messages regarding this complaint here.Bless sins (talk) 04:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You've been blocked for 24 hours for continuing the attacks. Please exercise restraint. El_C 06:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You may want to read this!

Just for fun User:Igorberger/Social engineering (Internet) Igor Berger (talk) 11:50, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXIII (January 2008)

The January 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 00:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

John Lee Love

Please do not re-add speedy deletion tags once an admin has already declined your request, as you did to the above article. Doing so is disruptive, and can ultimately lead to blocks. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 08:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Military history WikiProject coordinator elections

The Military history WikiProject coordinator selection process is starting. We are aiming to elect nine coordinators to serve for the next six months; if you are interested in running, please sign up here by February 14! Kirill 03:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Your recent uploads of Walther firearms

These image was deleted as per WP:CSD#I9 due to the copyright disclaimer on the source website. ("Alle Texte, Bilder, Audio-Dateien und weitere hier veröffentlichte Informationen, mit Ausnahme der gekennzeichneten Artikel, unterliegen dem Copyright der CARL WALTHER GmbH Sportwaffen. Eine Reproduktion oder Wiedergabe des Ganzen oder von Teilen ist ohne eine schriftliche Genehmigung der Carl Walther GmbH ausgeschlossen!") Do you have any proof that Walther released this image under a Creative Commons license? ˉˉ╦╩ 09:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I noticed this image here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Walther_SSP.jpg. The user also claims to have the image released under CC but has no proof, which I assume was lost when the image was moved to Commons. I will verify this with Walther. Koalorka (talk) 16:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I think Image:Walther SSP.jpg was a copyright violation that went undetected, I've nominated the commons copy for deletion. If you think there's any chance that Walther would release promotional materials under a free license, that would be great news for the project! There's some helpful advice about obtaining such permission over at U:RFC. Cheers, ˉˉ╦╩ 05:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

AUG Optics

Put an explanation into the dicussion page of the article --Sf (talk) 18:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Heckler & Koch MP5

I undid your POV edit here. The information is relevant to readers of the article. Weapon-crazy rednecks may not like it, but I couldn't care less. It is relevant to the article subject, it is not at all out of proportion to mention it in one sentence and it has two references. User:Dorftrottel 22:52, February 10, 2008

POV? Do you know what that refers too? "Weapon-crazy rednecks"? Well reality challenged socialist hippie campus granola munchers may not like it, but the Red Army Faction was not in any way involved with the MP5. However, the MP5 was used by them, so you can go ahead and mention it on the RAF page. Best regards from the real world. Koalorka (talk) 00:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Reality challenged? Das von jemandem, der sein Weltbild vermutlich aus so erlesenen Quellen wie http://www.pi-news.net/ bezieht. However, please check up on WP:OWN and WP:NPOV. The information is of course included in the RAF article, but it's just as relevant to the MP5 article (if not more so). User:Dorftrottel 00:12, February 11, 2008

You will find everyone with relevant firearm experience will tell you otherwise. Unless you're seeking an edit war and arbitration that will deem your request unreasonable and a violation of policy.... If that's the case, revert away. Also notice how your trivia has already been removed. Splinter terrorist groups are not officially recognized organizations. Koalorka (talk) 00:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, another weapon fan instantly reverted. I suggested filing for an independent third opinion or an WP:RFC. One hint: "firearm experience" does not help one determine whether a specific piece of information is relevant in an encyclopedic article...

"Splinter terrorist groups are not officially recognized organizations." — Well, we do have an article about them and it does cite some sources... You may want to consider nominating it for deletion if you think it's non-notable. On a related note, Conservapedia or Metapedia.org may be closer aligned to your kind of reality. Why not try there? User:Dorftrottel 00:21, February 11, 2008

You don't have any sort of valid argument. Please provide one or don't waste my time. We will not be seeking a third-party opinion simply to entertain some random and irrelevant request. And I have acclimatized here very nicely thank you. I find eradicating English Misplaced Pages's obvious socialist slant very refreshing because irrational leftists are very easy to defeat with logic and reason. Leftists are by nature very limited and irrational people. Regards. Koalorka (talk) 00:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

(sigh) Ok, I'm going to file for a WP:3 then. User:Dorftrottel 00:29, February 11, 2008

Please do. It will change nothing in the long run. But like I said, irrational leftists will pursue their agendas until humiliated before withdrawing. Koalorka (talk) 00:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I filed for a third opinion. You may want to provide your rational arguments at Talk:Heckler & Koch MP5#Red Army Faction / WP:3. User:Dorftrottel 00:40, February 11, 2008

Just did. :D Koalorka (talk) 00:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Your argument so far is not oriented towards encyclopedic considerations. User:Dorftrottel 01:01, February 11, 2008

Your arrogant insults also leave a lot to be desired. What goes around comes around. Learn, young grasshopper. :) Koalorka (talk) 01:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to help you here. You're not currently making a strong case for leaving that information out of the article. Believe me, I'm eager to let myself be convinced with good arguments in order to settle this peacefully (I like peace and such irrational leftist stuff). Btw, I have served in the army. Have you? User:Dorftrottel 01:08, February 11, 2008

Ooooh, nice jab at us evil warmongers. And you wonder why most leftists are treated like children with a mild brain aneurysm... You're not arguing me, I've made my case with my single revert, you're arguing against the NO TRVIA policy on the project page. Koalorka (talk) 01:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"NO TRVIA policy on the project page"? Can you provide a link to that page? User:Dorftrottel 01:29, February 11, 2008

I believe Koalorka means WP:AVTRIV, and WP:GUNS#Criminal use, and a little bit of WP:GUNS#Pop culture. The former being a Misplaced Pages guideline, and the later two being WikiProject Firarms guidelines.--LWF (talk) 01:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, yes. Koalorka (talk) 01:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, the WP:TRIVIA style guideline discusses trivia sections, just as Misplaced Pages:GUNS#Pop_culture does. Moreover, I for one wouldn't call the terrorist acts of the RAF a "pop culture" event. Misplaced Pages:GUNS#Criminal_use doesn't apply because the sentence specifically mentions the (not in itself criminal) depiction in the RAF insignia. User:Dorftrottel 01:42, February 11, 2008

To put these in perspective, while the two you mentioned do say sections, it is implicit in the statements that it is not the sections that are objected to, it is the information contained within them. And the pop culture guideline and criminal use guideline are in fact applicable because they lay down standards for inclusion, in this case, did the use of the MP5 in the insignia generate legislation? did it make the MP5 more notorious? Did it have any notable effect on the MP5 at all? If it has, then it could possibly be included, if a citation were found, verifying the effects. If these conditions are not met, then it shouldn't be included because it has had no notable effect on the MP5.--LWF (talk) 01:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

No, WP:TRIVIA specifically addresses the organization of information. To quote the page: "This style guideline deals with the way in which these facts are represented in an article, not with whether the information contained within them is actually trivia, or whether trivia belong in Misplaced Pages." At any rate, the threshold created by the WP:GUNS "guideline" is arbitrary and defies policy. Whether or not it had an effect on the MP5 is irrelevant: It is a notable bit (as verified by sources). User:Dorftrottel 02:01, February 11, 2008

Something else for a change

I don't like myself if I don't manage to recognise something positive about people I have an exchange with. I've given it some thought, and regardless of our banter, I think it's a good thing that you do have an attitude. It's not one I can personally identify with, but I don't have to. Nihilists without any ethos or attitude are the ones I'm actually worried about. User:Dorftrottel 21:24, February 11, 2008

I don't quite follow... Either way, no hard feelings, but it was you that started with the mudslinging. Gun enthusiasts that I know are far from the stereotypical militant redneck. They are young professionals, lawyers, doctors, law enforcement people, soldiers, seniors, people of colour etc. I don't think it's fair the way you categorized us all. Koalorka (talk) 22:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Copyright problems with Image:Chauchat Magazine.jpg

Glock 18

The Glock 18 is functionaly a different weapon from other Glock pistols. It is visualy similar, but functions with different parts that are not interchangable with other Glock pistols. What next, the Beretta 93 gets merged with the Beretta 92? Alyeska (talk) 06:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to start again. This was determined by a majority consensus. You are welcome to debate this on the Glock main page and put up "split" tags on that page. That's the only option, otherwise, I will revert every move. Koalorka (talk) 07:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Funny, I remember majority consensus agreeing to keep the page separate because the gun is mechanically different from the rest. You merge pages for things that are similar. The Glock-18 is not similar. Alyeska (talk) 14:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Glock pistol

I'm confused. I revised and clarified the Glock article. It took me a while and you jumped in and reverted it wholesale without discussion or anything else. Could you please talk about it and explain what was wrong with it. I thought it was in good faith and, frankly, it read alot better. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 00:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Check your talk page. Koalorka (talk) 01:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Image FNC

But in that image the gun lookc much smaller and it bearly focuses on it --Climax-Void

MP5 once more

User:John has made imo very agreeable comments regarding the info. Maybe you should comment there instead of simply reverting. User:Dorftrottel 23:31, February 15, 2008

And again. User:Dorftrottel 12:41, February 17, 2008

Milhist coordinators election has started

The February 2008 Military history WikiProject coordinator election has begun. We will be selecting nine coordinators to serve for the next six months from a pool of fifteen candidates. Please vote here by February 28. --ROGER DAVIES  11:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Image source problem with Image:M1 Garand competition.JPEG

Thanks for uploading Image:M1 Garand competition.JPEG. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.

As well as adding the source, please add a proper copyright licensing tag if the file doesn't have one already. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Misplaced Pages:Non-free content, use a tag such as {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags#Fair use. See Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the image is copyrighted under a non-free license (per Misplaced Pages:Fair use) then the image will be deleted 48 hours after 00:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC). If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Ricky81682 (talk) 00:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXIV (February 2008)

The February 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 04:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Talmud

I don't think I agree with your changes to Talmud. I have offered an explanation on Talk:Talmud and suggest you offer your views before reinstating your changes. Thank you. JFW | T@lk 11:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The idea is to stop reintroducing your edit and awaiting reasonable discussion on Talk:Talmud. Could you please respond to comments made by Jon513 (talk · contribs) and Shirahadasha (talk · contribs) on the talkpage? This is about consensus, not about getting your view accross against all odds. JFW | T@lk 10:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

PPS design details

Rather than changing each others posts like children, can we please take the issue to the discussions section so that we can debate the issue properly? Thanks GunpicsBAS (talk) 21:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

MR223

If you say it is just a variant I suggest you do itto the PS 90, FS 2000, SL8 USC otherwise I', going to revert. before Unrevert, plz post clear reason why. User:Kullwarrior —Preceding comment was added at 02:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I would, I did with the USC and trying to convince people with the PS90 and FS2000. Koalorka (talk) 04:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Image:Colt M4 MWS Carbine Iraq.jpg

Bei diesem Bild fehlen die Quellen. Bist du eingentlich der gleiche User wie bei den Commons?--Sanandros (talk) 14:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Das bestimmt. Ich behebe die Beschreibung. Koalorka (talk) 15:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Ultimax 100

Just curious, what is the best format you have in mind? And, isn't Singapore the primary user of this weapon at section level? If that is true, please revert to my edit, thank you. -- Dave1185 (talk) 15:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The project is now using flag|XXX as the standard template. This allows users not entirely familiar with country abbreviations to easily add content. Singapore is a primary user, but we still sort alphabetically. Koalorka (talk) 16:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

So that would mean that people who are not familiar with this article would come to the conclusion of having no idea whatsoever who the primary user is? Am I right to say that? Oh humbug! I'm adding the clause "primary user" to Singapore whether you like it or not. -- Dave1185 (talk) 16:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it's pretty implicit, reading the first few sentences of the introduction. Koalorka (talk) 16:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Look here just in case you didn't noticed, I edited SAR-21 before Ultimax, so shoot me! -- Dave1185 (talk) 18:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

That's great, but just please use the proper flag template. Thanks.Koalorka (talk) 18:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess IMI Tavor TAR-21 is your pet project, huh? Do what you wish, I wash my hands. -- Dave1185 (talk) 18:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

None of my pages are pet projects, I simply remove incorrect or unhelpful edits and vandalism. If you have some valuable piece of information, wish to expand on a technical aspect of a firearm etc, by all means, you are most welcome and even encouraged to contribute. Koalorka (talk) 18:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Minimi in .308?

Did I read your email traffic right? Are they selling this in .308? --'''I am Asamuel''' (talk) 00:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Correct, I'm uploading some pictures into the Minimi article. One already there, check em out. I hope the Commons admins will let these pass, FN sent me some great images of the FAL, FNC (finally something decent), P90 and MAG. Koalorka (talk) 00:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

They did send you a P90! Excellent, I had hoped someone would get a high-resolution image of it that wasn't mostly obstructed. Also interesting to get advance word about the Minimi in .308.--LWF (talk) 00:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I received 6 photos of various P90 variants as well as a few more configurations of the 7.62 Minimi. I can't fit them all into the article, but if you'd like, shoot me your email and I'll send what I have. Koalorka (talk) 00:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for jumping in Koalorka, but would you be able to get photos of the entire FN line? Maybe some Five-Seven shots? Just curious because I remember you messaged me a while ago about this, good opportunity to get lots of images. Also, you can upload all of your images (including the ones you couldn't fit in the articles) into the Commons and put them into the particular firearm's gallery. Galleries can also be created within the pages if it gets to crowded. Thanks. Hayden120 (talk) 10:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Uploaded Images

Hi just wanted to say great work on getting permission on all those high quality images

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		For the constant monitoring, maintaining and expansion of Misplaced Pages’s “military history and firearms” articles and ensureing that acurate upto date information is used in their content --Climax Void ☭.

Unspecified source for Image:C-141C_Glass_Cockpit_Upgrade.JPEG

Thanks for uploading Image:C-141C_Glass_Cockpit_Upgrade.JPEG. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, then you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, then their copyright should also be acknowledged.

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Sako TRG

I saw you chose an image of a Sako TRG with optional folding stock as info box illustration. Be advised the optional folding stock is rarely seen on TRG rifles, when compared to standard stocks. The rather stiff additional cost of kitting out a Sako TRG with the folding stock might be a reason for the rarity of thus kitted out TRG rifles. I feel a picture of a TRG with a standard stock and amongst military users popular Sako 3-ring scope mounting gives a more representative image of a typically kitted out TRG rifle system. Something that does not belong into the Misplaced Pages article on the TRG (it occurs rarely and not during normal use), is the fact that some users managed to brake their current model standard butt stock in the pistol grip area during rough handling/drop accidents.--Francis Flinch (talk) 12:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I see. I selected the image mainly because it was a clean profile shot on a white background. I'm trying to set this up as an aesthetic standard. Koalorka (talk) 12:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I think I can get a clean profile image to your liking of an 8.6 TKIV 2000 (the TRG-42 as used by Finland with a FDF custom ordered Zeiss scope on top) from the FDF website. This image was originally used in the info box, but removed from Misplaced Pages for copyright reasons. Wikicommons states such governmental work is now free of copyright in Finland (it is referred to as Finnish copyright legislation of 2005) and can be tagged accordingly. I will upload that image to Wikicommons and change the images in the TRG article accordingly.--Francis Flinch (talk) 13:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

That would be great! The FDF site contains some pretty good (albeit small) images of several unique firearms. Let me know when you have done this for the TRG and I will re-use your license template/infobox information for any remaining images that we may use. Koalorka (talk) 14:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. The license template/infobox information I just happend to find.--Francis Flinch (talk) 14:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Good work, that should prove useful. Koalorka (talk) 14:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Izhmash AK-74M.jpg

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The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXV (March 2008)

The March 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 01:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Unspecified source for Image:British_RAF_Tornado.JPEG

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Unspecified source for Image:F-16C_Fighting_Falcon.JPEG

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Unspecified source for Image:FV101_Scorpion_British.JPEG

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Unspecified source for Image:FV107_Scimitar_IFV.JPEG

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Unspecified source for Image:German_Navy_Tornado.JPEG

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RE:Make benefit glorious white Turkey?

See? You're doing it again! Just stop being racist, OK! I didn't say being white was glorious, stop taking things out of context, all you're doing is being racist, ignorant and immature. Get a life. Onur (talk) 17:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll stop being cruel towards Turk nationalists when Turk nationalists stop being racist, aggressive, lying bigots who spew their filth on Misplaced Pages. Do we have a deal? Koalorka (talk) 17:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)