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Misplaced Pages Statistics page

Special:Statistics gets a lot of views. The external link-stats are actually linked to from MediaWiki:Statistics-footer (before that MediaWiki:Userstatstext). For the last year or so, I've added the WikiCharts, then removed them once they stopped working. I added the Wikirage "most edited pages" links, and the http://stats.grok.se page. I won't be editing Misplaced Pages as much as I have been doing in the past from now on, so perhaps admins here could add these pages to their watchlists and keep an eye on whether the Wikirage & traffic stats pages are still working, and whether there are new pages that should be added. Cheers, JACOPLANE • 2008-04-15 21:29

The http://stats.grok.se/ site is a really useful tool. Cirt (talk) 17:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

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What do you think about opening the admins channel a wee bit?

Following a very helpful chat with Tiptoety earlier today on IRC, I decided to ask FT2 about the possibilities of opening the admin channel a little bit - specifically to me, because I would like to spend a short time therein to take a look. It now occurs to me that I should also probably see what the general admin community thinks about such a development. I gather there have been some discussions (which I presume might have been on IRC?) on this matter - and thought that it's probably worth bringing all of them onto the wiki, where I think they belong! cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 03:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Since the decision would be made by IRC channel ops, IRC is a reasonable place for them to discuss it. In any case, if there is a plan to admit a few non-admins to the channel, they would need to be highly trusted by the community, perhaps former admins or very well-established and trusted users. Otherwise, all that can be expected is for any sort of sensitive discussion to be avoided, which spoils the "observation". — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The admins channel is private for a variety of reasons. At times in the past, exceptions to the "only en.wiki admins" rule have been made, but they are only done when there is a legitimate reason to do so. From the comments I've seen from you, this is merely a sightseeing expedition. If there is a legitimate reason (i.e., not simply to look around) that a non-admin would need access, they're free to present a request. Cheers. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe the IRC issue is causing significant on-wiki disruption, and wish to inform my opinion concerning the channel in order to comment and discuss the issue further 'on-wiki'. I've summed this up as 'taking a look' - hope that's clearer! - Privatemusings (talk) 04:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Open it to you? No thanks. I don't like the company you keep. Purely a personal view, of course. Guy (Help!) 12:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Privatemusings, as you were already informed on your talk page, we held a discussion amongst us channel operators and participants and have decided there is not consensus to make an exception for you to join as a non-admin. Please do not exacerbate this by bringing it to other forums. krimpet✽ 03:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

no intention to exacerbate - and hope you're not stressed by the conversation. Privatemusings (talk) 04:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm firmly opposing this, and from what I see on IRC, the other admins there are opposed to it as well. I can't speak for all of them, of course, but the reason I personally oppose it is that it leads to a slippery slope. If we let you in, then what's to stop random other people from getting in as well? Basically, what I'm trying to say is... why you? What makes you so special that we should let you in as a guest? I do agree that there is always the potential for abuse, of course, but I don't necessarily believe letting anybody who asks in is the proper way to solve that. Veinor 03:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems important to me that this conversation occurs between all admins, and in fact all editors, because the fact that you refer to 'the other admins there' can be seen to be a bit problematic - I can elucidate if you'd like, but I hope you understand my point! cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 04:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I get it; it's a reasonable point, and I'm making no attempt to stop them from coming here and voicing their opinion; indeed, it looks like many of them already have. Veinor 04:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

When I participated in the admin IRC channel, there were quite a few non-admins there. But I've not logged on there in maybe 6 months or so. Has policy governing the channel been changed to exclude non-admins? Raymond Arritt (talk) 04:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

No, the rules haven't changed. But the non-admins are ex-admins or other users who generally have some form of authority or respect, whereas what Privatemusings is suggesting (if I read it correctly) is sort of a guest tour. Veinor 04:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I would support users who aren't admins but are former admins, admins on commons or meta, otrs volunteers, stewards, foundation-level people, etc being granted access or granting temporary access to others who need a semi-private place to get attention from admins on a case-by-case basis. But turning it into #wikipedia-en-trustedusers or #wikipedia-en-admins-andPrivatemusings is, I think, not ideal. Mr.Z-man 04:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I am pretty sure we already have non-admins in the channel. _(1 == 2) 04:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Very few though⇒SWATJester 04:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are a couple. As mentioned above, however, those are former admins, or other people who have some sort of authority (developer(s), OTRS personel, etc... -not sure if there are any otrs people there though). - Rjd0060 (talk) 04:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to PM getting a quick looksee for a few minutes or so, but I'm firmly against opening it up. #wikipedia is a shithole. the stats page supports this. WEA is a useful channel, and I would be pissed if it got destroyed. ⇒SWATJester 04:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Discussion here doesn't matter, 500 people could say yes and it wouldn't matter since IRC is off-wiki. And at any rate, we can't start letting nn-admins in without setting a nasty precedent. Most non-admins with access are just leftover from being desysopped. John Reaves 04:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, see User:Cbrown1023/Guidelines (user info)‎ for all the non-admins with access (they're in bold). John Reaves 04:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

See WP:IRC#wikipedia-en-admins for non-admins etc. FT2  04:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

As for this request, my thought is, it'd have 2 effects. Firstly the direct one... the channel for a day or so would be like one of those guided tours of some House... you'd see calm and quiet and you'd have no way to tell if it was normal or "put on for you", so your report to the community would maybe be dismissed out of hand whatever you said. Secondly, it would raise problems in that some people would object (strongly), others expect an exception to be given to them too (strongly), some would try and interpret it as whitewashing (or whatever todays issue is) and so on. Instant big-time 10-way divisiveness and further arguments from then on, on all fronts (based on "it was done once!"/"it shouldn't have been done once!"/whatever). And for what benefit? Such things have a cost, in lost time and effort. So while it's a nice idea, the current goal is to resolve these disputes, anything that gave a WP:COATRACK for further stuff, would need really good reasons to do so. This one, as a "personal curiosity" request, just doesn't have it. And that's before even considering the privacy reasons that others raise.

What would help instead as a variant, is to have even more of the more irc-critical admins to visit for a month or so and check it out, then it's very different. These would be users who are critical and might want to check it out first hand and see for themselves. They'd potentially be round a long time (a month to indefinite), over which timespan they'd definitely know they were seeing it as it really is, and none of the down sides would arise. If users there are doing right, it'll resolve on-wiki issues faster than anything since these would have more credibility; if it isn't, then these are exactly the users most likely to be willing to say so in channel if something needs higher standards. Both ways it's fine. I have an open explicit request that admins who have concerns might consider dropping by to check it out first hand for themselves, which would probably help a whole lot. I feel fairly sure it would work out well if they did. FT2  04:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

thanks for the responses - I understand the points raised, but don't quite swallow them entirely. I had an idea that a little more openness might help the channel's reputation, and help it be better understood; its been reported to me by several folk that the actual proceedings are mundane, useful, if a little dull. The fact that so many very clear reasons as to why it's just not quite possible emerge so quickly strikes me as interesting - I mean they're sound reasons 'n all, but they give a different impression.... it's obviously important that I don't have access, but I'm not really understanding why. Has anyone expressed the objections you detail above, FT? - and I'd also be interested in your reaction to "Discussion here doesn't matter" - which I've got to say concerns me quite alot (happy to talk about that too, John - doesn't seem right to me!) - cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 05:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, Privetmusings, you don't want to go in there. The place is a mess! Shoddy carpet, the sofa's full of tears, Krimpet always hangs the toilet paper the wrong way. That wouldn't be a problem in of itself, but SWATJester never puts the seat up and DMCDevit leaves crumbs everywhere. Oh, and Ryan Postlethwaite is always barging in drunk way past curfew. It may seem like I'm being glib, but that's the truth :) Keegan 05:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

You tweak my curiosity all the more, Keegan! - I can pull up a bar stool (and fall off it) with the best of them! You're not the first person to ask why in the world would I want to have a look in there - I just kinda suspect that it's actually almost exactly as you describe - that it's both mainly quite dull, and occasionally very useful. I'm not sure why, therefore, I wouldn't be permitted to take a look. I'd like to inform my opinion, and promote some useful discussions about what its really like, to be honest - nor should folk confuse me with someone who cares that deeply about the issue - it just seems like a good idea to me! Immediate, and strong, opposition to considering this request kinda creates its own problems too. Maybe I'm coming across as an annoying fool, which would embarrass me considerably, but hopefully some may see some merit, somewhere! cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 05:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

My basic point was that for the most part the channel is idle banter. But at any point someone might bring up something onwiki, such as viewing deleted edits or reviewing a sock investigation. That belongs in private conversation both from a trust standpoint but also because it takes administrative access to weigh in on these issues. Since that may involve revealing personal information, we keep all that discussion in a smoky back room. Being in such a room, poker games and other vice might be undertaken. But the privacy remains for a very legitimate reason and that is not to shield illegal/immoral/unwiki activities. Such is why the channel is private. If you could see the conversations, really the only relevant ones that involve discussion require the bit to gather the informed opinion. I completely understand your curiosity but let me assuage you that it can be quite as mind-numbing and off topic as any other IRC channel or message board in the world. Hope that helps you. Keegan 06:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Keegan, thank you for not mentioning my bong smoking. _(1 == 2) 05:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Some background regarding non-admins in the channel: until recently, the access list to the channel included many non-admins, some with no special authority or anything. They were simply there because they were friends of the chanops, no other reason. These days, Essjay and Kelly Martin no longer use the channel (and are no longer ops), and, as far as I'm aware, not a single non-admin has been granted access since 2006. I already told Privatemusings it would be a waste of time visiting the channel, and an even bigger waste of time arguing about it - I personally have stopped using the channel because of personal issues between certain bullying chanops and the whole ethos of the channel simply makes me uncomfortable being there. PM, you'd be better off out than in. Majorly (talk) 21:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

What might be a legit reason for access, at least for some

I do have a thought as to what might qualify someone, or at least myself, in having access to the admin channel. As the original author of WP:TOV and a real-life emergency services responder (credential verification available upon request) I have a few times now interfaced with police and 911 communication centers in order to report what very well might be imminent threats to self or others. It might be incredibly useful (perhaps even save a life/lives) to have immediate access to a larger group of administrators for real time chat in order to deal with such things. I am already very active on #wikipedia-en and by no means an irc n00b. What do ya'll think about granting me access to the admin channel for this purpose only. It wouldn't be a place I'd regularly hang out in, but rather only access in times of emergency. Looking forward to your thoughts. Bstone (talk) 05:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, the non-admins are allowed in the channel because they have proven themselves to be useful. _(1 == 2) 05:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Would this be considered useful? I've received two barnstars for my efforts in WP:TOV and having responded to actual TOVs. Bstone (talk) 05:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Posting to ANI reaches many more admins and other editors who may be of assistance in such situations, Bstone. Several thousand people have ANI watchlisted, while at the best of times we are told only about 30 people are actually around in WEA, and it only has a total membership of about 500. If the objective is to get many eyes on a situation quickly, ANI is much more effective. Risker (talk) 05:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh I agree that ANI is the most appropriate place to deal with it, but I have seen things get lost or not responded to. It just might be that having every tool at one's disposal (especially in a case of loss of life) would be the most appropriate thing. Agreed? Bstone (talk) 05:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Attempting to "reform" #admins is meaningless

Meaningless proposal, PM. Admin channel, like all others, belong to Forrester (personally) no matter what Jimbo or ArbCom order (and they unlikely will anyway.) IRC has no relation to Misplaced Pages no matter how some try to make it both ways (for convenience to claim either, when expedient). Logs remain to be revolting (including today) and nothing is going to change.

The good thing though is that it got such a bad rep (deservingly) that there are less newcomers who express the #admins psychology. It is already better than in the Fall 2006 (it's clear worse when checkuser data was discussed in public, arbcom statements were compiled, dissenters were kickbanned and penis talk was rampart) and in another several months half of the current activists will be gone due to a natural turnover and there will be less of that type among those who are coming now (less are joining too.)

So, that maybe also a solution to simply wait it out. It's just too slow and in the months to come the channel will still be able to hurt the Misplaced Pages and its editors. Not saying you should just ignore the maleficence but you should abandon hope of reform or access to the critics.

Note how "reform" was undertaken. By critics' exclusion (not an exclusion of non-admins. Betacommand is there most of the time, btw, asking for blocks and warnings of those who "personally attacked" him) So, while exposing the cheating is a good thing, trying to waste an effort on reform is unlikely to help. --Irpen 05:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I've always been a kind of 'positive change from the inside' sort of person, and that's another reason I thought I'd try and take a look! The eternal optimist in me says that it's always possible at any given moment to choose the best path forward - and at the moment, I'm trying to gain support for the idea that a little bit more sunlight, openness etc. might be worth looking at - and I'm trying to get to the bottom of the tensions between the 'it's really boring really, why would you want to come in?' and 'there's no way we could safely allow you in, it's just too risky'. Time will tell if I get anywhere.....! - Privatemusings (talk) 05:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I do intend to see what the channel thinks of releasing a day or two's worth of logs so people can get a feel for the channel. John Reaves 05:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Great idea. Especially, when participants know in advance that today's logs would be released. --Irpen 05:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Isn't posting logs sort of similar to letting a few other eyes and ears in? - they seem to have some synergy to me! In fact, it's probably a dramatically more extreme step in many ways - why not take it slow, and first of all let a few folk lurk and see for themselves? - I would think it would be pretty straight forward to monitor the folk so invited too, so I guess I see the risk as low... whaddya reckon? - Privatemusings (talk) 05:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, attempting reform is especially useless when we can't even crack down on people constantly leaking logs. Mr.Z-man 06:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with a conclusion but for a different reason. Every time the embarrassing evidence gets exposed, the IRC's talk is about leaks (just as above) instead of the problems being discussed. Best proof that the channel is unable of a self-reform. --Irpen 06:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The infamous channel logs will always contain improper things, said at improper times by improper people. That happens on-wiki, too. These threads always disturb me slightly be cause as a regular lurker in the admin channel I become indicted with the channel itself. I, and many others, sit in the channel and use it to communicate in regards to admin related tasks whether they be personal or policy related. Some(most)times we wander off topic to general conversation but that almost always circles back to the wiki. Most of the time the channel is either quiet or idle banter. It only takes a few bad apples and a few bad topics to indict an entire channel so let's consider that if you want to name names, do so. If you don't, please don't insult everyone else with condemnation. I have great respect for your work, Irpen, and the sins of others should not be cast upon me as a user of the channel. Keegan 05:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Keegan, I am sorry for inadvertently "indicting" you (or anyone.) Most admins are good. Bad is the channel that allows few bad apples to multiply the damage and also, spoil some not so bad apples on the way. Apologies for not being clear that I never intended to say that all admins at the channel are bad. It's just that good ones have lesser impact "at the channel" (not on wikipedia.) --Irpen 05:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I'd rather see older logs released which would only be edited for privacy reasons, e.g. discussions of BLPs (one of the reasons the channel is useful). John Reaves 05:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it would be appropriate to decide that once private conversations should become public after the fact unless the parties involved gave their consent. _(1 == 2) 06:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

1=2, Just don't say things in private that would embarrass you if made public. It's that simple. None of the bad stuff you did at the channel involve any privacy policy, checkuser, BLP or similarly sensitive issues. When you went to shop for blocks and it became known, the reason is that you went to shop for blocks in the first place. --Irpen 06:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

There is plenty I would say to trusted friends I would not say to those seeking to invent battles, of which there are plenty. You don't know squat about what happens on channel as is demonstrated by your baseless accusation. If you have any evidence of my impropriety on channel then take me to arbcom and I will provide the logs myself, but stop blowing smoke. You want to toss accusations of corruption around then damn well prove it and act on it. _(1 == 2) 13:27, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

No hard feelings, Irpen. My opinion on that matter has always been that those who use the channel for its purpose use it that way, we have little use for it otherwise. I may chatter every now and again in there or #wikipedia, when I'm in that kind of mood I don't even notice what channel I'm in. I'm not on Misplaced Pages to make friends or run in a circle; hell, I use it to get away from that in real life. If people want to piss, moan, bitch and badmouth I don't care where they do it as long as it is offwiki. It is both shameful and regretful that this takes place in a channel bearing the name that it does. That is undoubtful. If we had a way to change it, I feel we would have found it by now. There reaches a point that you can't get away from people acting like people in a social/communal setting. I sleep at night knowing that at least, considering our numbers, we still manage to keep composed while editing here. Happy editing to all. Keegan 06:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, reform is impossible even though the first and foremost step is obvious. End the revolting ambiguity of the channel's status that is only more so revolting for being kept so on purpose (cake/have/eat). There is no way to defend this immoral setting but sabotaging the change worked so far. --Irpen 06:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I glad we can agree to disagree to agree to disagree to agree, at least I think that's how that went. Keegan 06:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Until(1 == 2) says charmingly above to Irpen "You don't know squat about what happens on channel" This is untrue, many of us have very accurate and verified logs showing us exactly what goes on in this chatroom. We can see that nothing productive, only incoherent noise, malicious gossip and orchestrated blocks emerge from that channel. The reasons for keeping it private and the logs unpublished are to prevent the ordinary editor knowing of the loutish and disgraceful behaviour that occurs there with the full knowledge of Arbs, who are often in the channel when trouble is occurring. Basically, the channel is used for purposes and language which would not be permitted on Misplaced Pages and serves no useful purpose whatsoever beyond creating division and exclusion. Giano (talk) 13:38, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Like you said, you have access to the logs. Like I said, if you think I was improper take me to arbcom and present your evidence and I will also provide logs, as will many uninvolved people. I am pretty sure my logs and your logs agree, it is just your interpretation that differs. You have no lack of evidence Giano, it is just that what you say happened did not happen as you say it did. I won't be denying the content of the logs if they are accurate if you choose to persue this in a productive evidence based fashion, but if you are just going to repeat accusations then I have not much to add other than "It just isn't so". _(1 == 2) 13:54, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

You seem very nervous Until(1 == 2, if you read my post properly you will see I am talking in general terms of behaviour in the channel, not specifics. Giano (talk) 13:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I would say that the fact that you claim conspiracy in an occasion where there was not is a pretty good representation of your general view of IRC. Unfounded static. You have all these logs, so where is all this abuse? Where is all this conspiring? Because if you looked at the situation leading to your most recent block as an IRC collaboration, then I have to doubt your interpretation of other IRC events. I think you either have an ax to grind so you are sowing distrust, or you are truly misinterpreting events. Either way I have to take you claims with a grain of salt. _(1 == 2) 14:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think either of their posts is helpful. Everyone should at least be able to agree that the perception of impropriety on the channel is a problem. This occurs because it is a secret exclusive channel. Secrecy breeds distrust. This needs to be addressed either by opening the channel or preventing its use. DrKiernan (talk) 13:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

• I partially agree with you DrKiernan, however, I don't think you will find that neither openness or closure are going to be willingly on their agenda. We now have a situation where the all inclusive Misplaced Pages is governed by a nonproductive and exclusive clique at its centre, and no one with sufficient authority is prepared to stand up and address the situation, the reason being that they are all in their chatting or friends with those who are. As a consequence the editors on the factory floor have become second class citizens. Giano (talk) 13:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

One would think that such a horrible oppression and manipulation would be demonstrable. Yet while we have forest of accusations, we have very little objective evidence. What little evidence that has been provided does not demonstrate abuse of power. _(1 == 2) 01:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposal

Just open it up to all and only voice admins. A discussion or decision or whatever can then be had about who else to voice, if necessary. Start a separate admin-only channel strictly and plainly for BLP issues, if necessary (the only good reason for a private channel, right? I'm not aware of any others) Give up the weird idea that #admins has nothing to do with Misplaced Pages. If people didn't believe it was a quasi-, demi-, almost or de facto official channel they really would have no business being there. Encourage all admins to join both channels. The watchers are watched, paranoia is at a minimum, everyone lives in peace and harmony forever. 86.44.30.169 (talk) 06:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't even use the IRC channel, but that would be pointless. If #admins is opened up to all viewers, the traffic that people want to keep private will just be moved into other private user-created channels. There is no way to control off-Wiki communication between Misplaced Pages users and any attempt at doing so will fail. FCYTravis (talk) 07:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

If people want to make their own private wikipedia clique channels with no trace of official imprimatur, there's no way of stopping them. I don't think admins or selective pockets of admins would think that was a good idea, is that naive of me? 86.44.30.169 (talk) 07:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

You're assuming that such private clique channels don't already exist. They almost certainly do. Furthermore, I'm quite sure that anyone who isn't in those clique channels now, but thinks that what they say on #admins should not be seen by non-admins, is going to join them if your proposal is adopted. So, nothing is accomplished except driving everyone into private clique channels and extinguishing whatever usefulness #admins might have had. It's counterproductive in the extreme.

I'm a journalist. I'm a believer in WikiSunshine. That's why all on-Wiki actions should have to be backed up by on-Wiki discussion except in exceptional circumstances (OTRS actions, for example). None of this "two people said so on IRC, so I blocked" crap. That's pernicious and dangerous.

But open meeting laws such as the Brown Act have never extinguished back-channel discussions and off-the-record conversations, even among actual governmental bodies which meet in the real world. They never will. We're never going to be able to do it on Misplaced Pages, either - there will always be private conversations, private groups and private information. It's like playing Whack-a-Mole with 1 billion holes. If you make #admins public, it's not suddenly going to reveal its darkest secrets. Those secrets will just move somewhere else. FCYTravis (talk) 07:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

QUOTE You are assuming that such private clique channels do not already exist.QUOTE Well, yes, I think that's rather the point 86.44.30.169 was trying to make. This you can't stop it because it will start somewhere else is a strawman. Yes, it might well start somewhere else... but, if it does, that too can be stopped for what it is ie. out-of-process, cliquish, canvassing.

The point is that it shouldn't go on. The point is that the community has had enough and has said, enough! To apply your argument to another topic - perhaps the community should not bother to stop vandalism, because it will just happen again? Of course it should bother. Of course the community should act in such a way as to promote appropriate, open behavior and send a message to those who would attempt to act outside of what the community feels is valid.

I do not doubt that it is nothing like vandalism - that it was and is done, mostly, in the best of faith. But it is still out-of-process, cliquish, canvasing and it is still wrong. It is something the community has shown it does not accept and these administrators- these so-called respected members of the community should know enough and be big enough to stand up and say yes, I was wrong. If it starts up again, so be it. But at least the effort was made... and perhaps then we will know who is here to write an encyclopedia and who is here to play the MMORPG58.104.199.132 (talk) 10:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Having a quasi-official channel helps prevent cliques, or at least make them large enough to be diverse. Unlike ad hoc, undisclosed channels, the #admins channel has a large enough group of users to have a range of viewpoints on many topics - thresholds for deletion, BLP, blocking, etc. That makes it much more valuable than a channel with only 5 like-minded administrators would be. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

• My suggestion, not sure it it's noted above, is to bot-post logs from the admin channel to a place where all admins can read it, with sanctions against leaking. I have no problem with other admins seeing what goes on there, I was an IRC sceptic until I subscribed. I don't go there as often as I used to but it's a handy place to get a sanity check in real time, provided you only ever believe the dissenting views. 90% of what goes on there is banal. If you allow non-admins access, it will simply go underground, as admins have to have a place to vent and be talked down by others. Unless, of course, you want all busy admins to burn out and end up only with people who have no memory of long-term disruptive users and disputes, which I suppose might be seen as attractive in certain quarters. Guy (Help!) 12:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

• How would you determine who made the leak in order to apply sanctions? I expect that some admin would decide that the logs "need to be public" and would copy them to another public location. Compare deletionpedia and similar sites. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
• Guy has persuaded me that there is a use for an off-wiki communications channel that I won't be able to access. Venting and ranting is important, and too often it's not recognized for the ephemeral 'letting off steam' that it is, but is used as a stick to beat people with. Dan Beale-Cocks 13:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
• Guy, I had suggested this very thing the other day to Until 1=2 on his talk page, for an admins-only 24x7 log of the WEA channel, and he said basically that he (and presumably other admins) would simply not discuss some things there then because of the logging, and not trusting "all" admins. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 18:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Those admins whom people in general one cannot trust should be persuaded to give up the mop, and if one admin finds himself in a situation where he can personally can not trust a large number of his colleagues, it indicates a problem that also must be resolved. This is more serious even than the question of the existence of the channel. DGG (talk) 19:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

DGG, the conversation where Until made the statement is now archived here. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 21:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I wonder what would happen if one of these "untrustworthy" admins asked for access to the admins channel? Would they be denied? Maybe this channel is not for admins at all--perhaps it is just a "trusted user" (as defined by whom?) channel and having adminship is a preferred prerequisite but is not the defining factor in allowing access. That is what it looks like to me (an outsider): Calling this an "admin" channel is misleading; it is actually a trusted user channel where people can vent and do not have to worry about "being talked down to" by regular users. It's like a club or a fraternity--If it was not a club, then there would be less opposition to posting logs that are available to admins only. It is a little odd to have such a club, considering Misplaced Pages's transparency ideals, but as FCYTravis says, there is absolutely no way to stop this with policy--peer pressure and shame might work, but not policy. This club has "unofficial" status and the prerequisites required to access this club is unclear. I suppose that helps in keeping out certain Ppeople...Maybe it's like the Freemasons and you have to be tapped by an existing member! :-) Oh well, keep acting like you have something to hide and people will continue to think you have something to hide, I guess. Like I said on PM's talk page, it's not like it's my channel (or the community's) anyway, so I do not care what the channel's reputation is like. That is up to the users of that channel to improve--it does not appear the majority care to do that. It's not like discussion here is going to change anything, right? daveh4h 20:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I have o idea if any admin has ever been refused channel access. A small number have, I think, been booted. Guy (Help!) 21:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I can think two (maybe) admins that were booted for "per IRC" blocks and a non-admin booted for incivility. John Reaves 05:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Daveh4h, you are making the assumption that "these 'untrustworthy' admins" are untrusted by the channel as a whole, rather than a couple admins who have no control over who gets access. Why don't we post full logs of the channel? 1) IRC isn't a mailing list or a forum, to compare it to other technologies, it would be like comparing a phone conversation (IRC) to mail (mailing list). People may hold on to mail, but not many record their phone conversations. 2) Its so far from the norm. Of all the Wikimedia related channels I'm in (17? 18?) only 1 (#mediawiki) actually records logs besides what individual users may keep. 3) Archtransit (and possible similar incidents) - he could have gotten access to the channel in his couple weeks as an admin and posted all the logs from that time, which would have been annoying to say the least. Had there been a full log archive though, he could have posted the whole things, making the "admin-only" restriction pointless. Mr.Z-man 06:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Another of the major problems is that from time to time Admins can if they wish invite in their non-admin friends to join in the fun, we then have non-admins discussing and adding to converstions about which they have no business. The whole concept is intrinsically wrong. Giano (talk) 16:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Two additional suggestions

Recent (unfounded) paranoia made me concerned about this issue as well. I was thinking about bringing it up at wp:vp eventually, however, I might as well chip in now so as to not bring it up twice. My concern is the same as mentioned above: having a closed, admin-only, chat room seems to be in strong contrast with normal wikipedia ideals. In the long run such secrecy only cause suspicion and some might feel alienated. One of the things that (well this is my personal belief) have made WP work so well is that it's 99 % transparent. And the fact that it works on WP makes me think that a private admin channel is unnecessary?

Well, at least I'm not convinced by the arguments given above. And I'm a bit confused as well: (and this might be a stupid question) is really checkuser information being discussed on the channel? Isn't it only some users who have checkuser privileges, and if so, why are such data being shared with all admins on the channel? I mean, if another user with checkuser privileges need the info they could see it on wikipedia themselves?

Anyway, I have two suggestions I'd like to make: (And I hope you forgive me for being completely ignorant of previous discussions (I haven't found any!) or the need of discussing such things as checkuser data etc). Apis (talk) 01:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion: Make a Misplaced Pages administrator policy that goes something like: Admins are encouraged to avoid administrative co-operative off-wiki discussions that are not transparent. (Or even make it all editors and wiki related work)? Apis (talk) 01:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion: IRC Misplaced Pages related logs could be made available to everyone with a delay of 7 days, 30 days, (x days). Apis (talk) 01:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

TTN, again.

AE link -- . — Rlevse • Talk • 11:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

(If it matters any, make note that I have a long-standing account but I prefer to not to use it on Talk pages and the like.)

Even though TTN left for a while due to getting put on probation, he's recently returned with the same "holy cause" attitude he's had before. Despite being barred from making any redirect or merge-related edits, TTN's gone on a tagging and "trimming" adventure in the last few days, and while he's as annoying and forceful as ever that isn't the problem I'm bringing up. As seen here he's also getting other users to do his abrupt redirections and merges for him and from the way it sounds, as soon as his probation's up he's going to be pulling the exact same actions at the same pace that got him in trouble in the first place. It's really maddening, and I'm not sure anything can be done about him. - 4.156.24.213 (talk) 04:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Notified both editors. Is there any particular edit you have a problem with? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I looked into this and object to this sort of thing. Its evading the Arbcom sanctions by asking other users, on and off wiki to do things he is prohibited from doing. MBisanz 05:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Why? The problem was how he was doing it, not what he was doing. If an editor chooses to behave in the manner that TTN was censured for, then that is their choice, and appropriate action will be taken. Performing/requesting redirects/merges is a regular editor activity. seresin ( ¡? ) 05:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I gave TTN an open offer to do this myself, and I stand by it. The rationale is simple, a user, such as myself, would evaluate his request, and if it doesn't seem valid, we don't do anything. If it is valid, it doesn't matter who suggested it. This is no different from TTN making the same exact suggestion on the talk page, which he is allowed to do. Unless we have a problem with the judgement of the user he's asking, there isn't an issue here. -- Ned Scott 05:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

And to give further context, this is a user that was already considering this. TTN and the user were discussing the matter, and TTN said "Per the arbcom case, I can't even place merge tags until like August or September, so it would have to be you. I'm in no rush, so you can take whichever course of action you wish to take. " In other words, "if you want to merge them, you'll have to be the one to add the tags because I'm not allowed to". I don't see anything wrong with that. -- Ned Scott 05:15, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

To give further context, yes the wording is neutral but TTN knows and you know how you'd interpret such a 'neutral' request. All this does is reinforce the view that TTN still thinks he has done nothing wrong at all and is merely sitting this out until starting again. The post could be considered bordering on evasion of an arbcom restriction given the context and people involved and as such should be placed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Did you really think that the outcome of the Arbcom case would be that every bad article would suddenly become immortal? TTN is far from the only person that believes that TTN did little to nothing wrong, and that means that there is still going to be a drive to remove these things. I don't see anything here that violates his Arbcom restrictions.Kww (talk) 06:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

To quote TTN: "You could just try redirecting it, and if it's only one or two anons reverting without summaries, it would just be fine to revert and ignore them. If any of them become vocal or an actual user jumps in, then some other method would probably have to be used, though." Fun little game I guess. ArbCom here we come. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh gosh, and here's another friendly request...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't this really belong at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement again (yes, I'm aware that one was just closed 24 hours ago). I'll informed the user who closed that one how they feel. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:31, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Sigh, I really don't want to see Episodes and Characters 3, but if they do start proxying for him due to his "banned" status, I don't see any other option. Can someone please make the drama go away? Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:58, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I have undone sguerka's redirect without discussion of Meowth per Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 07:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, how petty can you people be? It should be obvious that these are requests and suggestions. I haven't ask "Hey, can you go tag all these articles?" or "Can you go put all of these up for deletion?" I have told one person that an article would be better off merged, asked someone to finish a forgotten merger that they agree on already, told one person that they would have to set something up themselves, and asked some one, at their own discretion, to re-redirect some articles (out of over 150 for reference) that had already been through some sort of discussion. There is nothing malicious in anyone's actions besides the people complaining. TTN (talk) 08:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

You're under sanction, banned from redirecting articles, suggesting that others do the work you are unable to do per the arbcom sanction is attempting to circumvent the ban you are under.... It isn't pettiness, it is the conditions you found yourself under due to the problematic behavior you undertook even after being chastised by the arbcom the first time around. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what TTN has done wrong. He's following the Arbcom ruling, and making editing suggestions. TTN has every right to engage in talk page discussions. He is not a banned user, and to describe him as such in order to justify blind reverting is disingenuous at best. The Arbcom ruling didn't say "any edits where TTN was involved in the discussion can be reverted on sight". Neıl ☎ 09:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Neil here. Especially since Sguereka would've done it without TTN. Sceptre 10:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

This argument does not hold any water. Sguereka had not re-redirected these articles until he was asked to do so as a proxy of TTN today. Perhap TTN isn't officially banned, but he is in spirit. If he was to do this sort of redirection, he'd have been treated in the very same way a banned user would be if that user was circumventing his ban. Arguing the semantics of his restriction seems somewhat silly, but I will not revert your reversion at this time. (No use fanning the fire of this continuing drama, afterall.) Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 10:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, TTN is not banned officially, nor banned in spirit. This is not an issue of semantics; it's very important to be clear on this, as "banned" has connotations and implications that do not apply to TTN. He is not banned, he is restricted from merging/redirecting/deleting episode articles. He has not even edited episode articles. Nor has he requested merges, deletions, or redirections. This thread has, therefore, very little purpose other than to air old grievances. Neıl ☎ 11:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately I have serious qualms about the Meowth redirect, notably the fact that it was opposed on the talk page for anyone that looked. I too don't agree one bit with TTN's actions: effectively he can puppeteer users to do what he's banned from and that should be "okay"? You'd be better off just cutting out the middle man and letting him do it himself if you're going to go that route. And last I checked that wasn't the option on the table. A comparison would be an AFD discussion: we aren't allowed to go to users and say "Hey, this article is under fire could you please post a keep vote if you think it should stay?" That violates a blatant rule and we all know it. So how is this any different?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 11:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Do I need to quote the ArbCom statement? The ruling states he cannot merge/redirect or delete articles relating to TV shows or characters. It also states he may not request any of the preceding. He has done none of these things. However, the ruling states " is free to contribute on the talk pages or to comment on any AfD, RfD, DRV, or similar discussion initiated by another editor, as appropriate." Neıl ☎ 12:22, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you missed his request to sgeureka to re-redirect a number of character articles then, Neil, because he did precisely what you say he didn't. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 12:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Kyaa, I did indeed miss that () - this is expressly against the Arbcom ruling (my apologies). The appropriate place for this to be reported is Arbcom enforcement, that way. I will add a comment to the thread you have already started there. Neıl ☎ 13:18, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

At the very least I can point out the Meowth redirect ended up violating what you cited Neil, given that the article covers in part the character's anime counterpart, meaning it affected an article on a TV character.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 12:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Sguereka had not re-redirected these articles until he was asked to do so as a proxy of TTN today. Right as a factual statement, totally wrong in the implication (and who would know this better than I am). While I would not have re-directed (most of) these articles that day, I redirect these types of articles on other days in a similar manner (as can be seen from my contributions) while no-one makes a big deal out of it. And why would they? It would be a hard strain on wiki procedure to open a new merge debate whenever a proper-enough merge&redirect is challenged by newbies or IPs without a comment, and I bet this exact loophole that got TTN into trouble in the first place will be filled eventually as well. – sgeureka 13:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no distinction between anonymous IP users and those who login and suggesting that there should be special rules when an IP is the wikipedian who challenges you strikes badly against the spirit of Misplaced Pages, imho. As to your comment about newbies... One would suggest you read up on BITE.... Suggesting that newbies and IPs should be treated as second class wikipedians is troubling. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 13:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I was a fanboy newbie once who was immediately bitten with an AfD, and I still only really learned the significance of WP:FICT (and WP:NOT#PLOT, WP:WAF, ...) after approximately four months of being an active wikipedian. I therefore consider it very unlikely that an IP or a newbie account who doesn't even use edit summaries, would know today's minimum requirements for fiction articles. And that doesn't even account for newly created disruptive sock puppets, although that would be the worst case scenario, so let's not go there. We're all here to at least maintain the quality we have already achieved, not twiddle our thumbs while some fanboy newbies (in good-faith or not) recreate articles that were considered bad the first time around. – sgeureka 21:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

As Seresin hinted above, anyone continuously editing in the same manner as TTN should probably sanctioned in the same manner as TTN. Regardless, Meowth, being one of the main characters (and having a speaking role) in the cartoon series, is far from being an obvious merge candidate (regardless of how one feels about the other 400-odd pokémon). — CharlotteWebb 13:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

See: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Clarifications_and_motions ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Just a question, should I have posted that initially to AE rather than clarification? I am still kinda confused. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 15:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Just as a note, there have been two related threads at AE: TTN and notability tagging? and And so it begins again. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

To establish context, I had already wanted to merge this article quite a time ago. TTN's message was merely a reminder about the issue which I had forgotten about. Suggestions of puppeteering are false considering I have acted on my own accord and have decided what I plan to do, which is to raise discussion on the talk page and subsequently merge if there are no objections. So, in all honesty, I don't see anything sinister with what's happened. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk 16:35, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

People who edit in a manner identical to sanctioned users will themselves be eventually sanctioned. That is what we see is happening. I want to say "get a clue" but experience has thought me that wont happen. -- Cat 18:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

...What? If you have some agenda, then don't take it out on me. I will propose a merge, and will wait for discussion, which is the standard for any merger. Don't make such claims. Check my contributions and learn your mistake. Ashnard _Talk 19:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about you or anybody specific. Mine was a mere general statement. However your ears seem clogged to my words. -- Cat 09:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if I misinterpreted "That is what we see is happening. I want to say "get a clue" but" on a topic based on a conversation involving myself as an attack at me. How stupid of me<_<. Ashnard _Talk 08:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Block

I'm rather uneasy about him being blocked: specifically, the reason why. While I understand he is restricted under E&C2, it's a stretch to apply said restriction to and . A better blocking reason would be for him requesting sguereka to redirect Meowth, but still, the current reason is very thin. Sceptre 13:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

See his talk page too. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I too have to echo the concerns that trimming an existing list of characters is the same as merge/deletion that C&E2 warns against. I did note that I felt tagging articles for notability may be considered broadly as the same previously at the ArbCom enforcement. However, these actions and the block, potentially, if TTN is unblocked and removes, say, one minor character out of a list or even one sentence about that character, someone's going to report him here again and lead down a slippery slope. I think this action should only be done if he engages in revert editing warring; if he, in good faith, tries to trim down an existing list of characters once, is reverted, then engages in discussion about it before other edits, that's perfectly in line with actions that we'd expect of any editor, that is, the lessons learned from the ArbCom case. If he continues to revert without discussion, then a block is fully justified. I just want to make sure that those that are monitoring and blocking him that there are a lot of people with TTN chips on their shoulders and may be able to push any block onto him for small well-meaning edits, based on the fact this block went through. (On the other hand, if there's collusion to enlist others to do exactly the same that TTN wanted to do by the same means as suggested above, that's very different) --MASEM 14:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Deletion process regarding WP:BLP

I have edited Misplaced Pages:Deletion process, and Misplaced Pages:Deletion guidelines for administrators, to bring them into line with Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons. I appreciate these are contentious edits and that I am being bold, but neither of those are cause for instant reversion. Before reverting, I'd rather editors consider their reasons for doing so, and debate whether what they are doing is in tune with the policy on biographies. I've been inspired to do this by User:Doc glasgow. I'm not looking to step into his shoes, and frankly, I couldn't. I prevaricate too much and sit on the fence too often. But Doc's right, we need to start making changes around here regarding these articles, and this is the first step. Any editors who want to revert these changes should first of all read User:Doc glasgow/The BLP problem and User:Doc glasgow. We need to find a solution to this problem, and not agreeing on any of them is simply not an option. Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons quite clearly places the burden of evidence on those wishing to include material, and has done since it became policy in July 2006, when it stated that In borderline cases, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm." Obviously all comments, thoughts and the like are welcome, but one way or another we need to address this issue. Hiding T 11:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

• It appears these changes have been proposed at Misplaced Pages talk:Biographies of living persons. This place is getting too big. Hiding T 11:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I would urge people not to simply revert these good faith changes, as there's been rumblings things are heading this way for a while now (thank Christ). The discussion needs to take place at WT:BLP, though, to keep things in one place. Neıl ☎ 11:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, but the wording's able to be improved. It was a bit stronger than consensus seems to have agreed so far, and the first one was a bit wordy too. I've updated it to what seems at least to be the semi-stable version actually visible at WP:BLP for the last while, at least until there's some clearer consensus on the subject, noted the "no consensus=delete?" debate, and also noted on each that BLP AFD norms are under discussion (so AFD patrollers know it's subject to change). . FT2  12:28, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with FT2's comments and policy edits that have brought the two changed deletion policies back into line with current consensus and the current WP:BLP policy. There is no current consensus to allow an unspecified in size minority (one person? 10%? 49%?) override majority opinion on deletion of BLPs. Going from wording that a consensus (overwhelming majority) is required to delete to a consensus (overwhelming majority) is required to keep skips altogether the in-between position of majority decides on BLPs. But there is not even consensus to allow a 51% majority to delete on just any basis; but instead to restrict that basis to cases where the issue is one of marginal notability. WAS 4.250 (talk) 12:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Vote counting is discouraged in AFD and most other venues. Under the "new way of BLPFDs", when the cumulative strength of divergent arguments is close to equal, the result would be "delete" in most cases (hopefully nobody closing an AFD would declare a stalemate between "keep" and "merge", ergo "no consensus", and then delete the article "per BLP"... that would just be stupid). — CharlotteWebb 13:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

It's almost two different kinds of issue. If there is a BLP problem of the "unsourced/negative/poor quality sourced information" type, then that doesn't need AFD. BLP-AFDs tend to be much more about borderline "do we keep it or not", where the main BLP issue is notability, subject request (if any), degree of information available to write a bio, etc. FT2  13:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that these two issues should not be hopelessly conflated into the same policy, but that's a separate issue. I was thinking of the latter case as (hopefully) were the individuals recently involved in changing AFD procedure. — CharlotteWebb 14:15, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the material should be restored to the original wording until there is actually consensus for changing it. Policy should not refer to proposed changes until they have actually been adopted. It is altogether wrong to make bold changes in basic policy when the issue is known to be still under debate. How the debate will go should not be assumed--but I predict that there is not consensus to reverse the default. This isnt the place to repeat all my arguments on the underlying issues, but I think NPOV and RS to be sufficient rules for BLP. Keeping our rules as they are, except for removing all references to giving extra weight to the subject's preference, is a very good option, at least if one continues to prefer NPOV over Subject's POV -- alas, SPOV has been preempted as an abbreviation. The only reason I do not myself revert this remarkable overapplication of bold is that i have a position on the underlying issue. DGG (talk) 15:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I must agree with DGG that the change is premature. The issue is still under heated discussion, there are multiple variations on the proposal that are under consideration, and even amongst supporters of the proposal there is disagreement about what form it should take. Black Falcon 16:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC) (Just to be clear: I think FT2's modifications accurately reflect the current situation, but I share DGG's hesitation to include mention of this in a policy page until there actually is a clear consensus one way or the other.)

Hey, cut me some slack. I missed the discussion. Like I say, this place is way too big now. Hiding T 09:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm just voicing my opinion on the change: it's good in that reflects the fact that discussion is ongoing and invites additional comment, but it also may cause confusion since the discussion has not yet produced a clear consensus on one particular course of action. I apologise if my comment came off as criticism of you personally; that was not my intention. Black Falcon 17:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

My position is this. How am I supposed to know a change to deletion guidance and policy is being proposed on a page unrelated to those pages. Something needs to be somewhere, because otherwise people may well change the policies ignorant of heated discussion elsewhere. Like I said, this place is too big. Hiding T 17:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

• Let it run, see what happens. We get way too many problems with marginally notable BLPs. Guy (Help!) 17:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

800 MEGABYTES???

Since a few weeks ago I've noticed that Misplaced Pages has become much slower than it used to be, especially after I've been using it for a while. This seems to be associated with a severe memory leak, for which the only solution is to restart my browser frequently, which is hardly acceptable. My computer has never has a virus so it must be in Misplaced Pages.

Could someone give me roll back so at least I can revert vandals without taking several minutes?

And why does in now say 'new section' rather than '+' at the top of the screen? I'm used to the position of the old thing on my screen and now always find my muose navigating to the wrong place. Could you please change it back? The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 14:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I have to say that I've noticed a decrease in the speed Misplaced Pages works at, not to mention the repeat lockings of the database (and this always seems to happen when I'm editing;) are the servers in the process of being upgraded or something? Qst (talk) 15:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

So many edits in so little time. Wikimedia hardware needs upgrades but for that we need funds. :) -- Cat 15:45, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The "new section" tab can be changed back to a "+" with a setting under the gadgets tab of your preferences. —Travis 15:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, I did that. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 17:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you using Firefox? Because Firefox is kind of known for leaking memory... I can't imagine a reason why Misplaced Pages and only Misplaced Pages would cause a browser to leak memory. Veinor 16:22, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been using the same Firefox for a long time and this has never happened with any other site. It also didn't happen last year with Misplaced Pages so something must have changed. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 17:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that a website could do that would actively cause one particular browser to spring a memory leak. If you're using an old version of Firefox, well... I'd say update that first. EVula // talk // ☯ // 17:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Firefox makes it easy to open many tabs or windows, and then it tends to slow down if there are more than a few of them --it has an option for giving a warning about that--you might want to activate it. DGG (talk) 18:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't open more than usual - just one for Misplaced Pages and one for whatever else I'm looking at. The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 22:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

there several reasons for the recent wiki issues. FireFox just released a new version, it may have introduced a memory leak then. Also the master database server's clock was lagging by 7 seconds until about a day ago. that is what was causing the high job queue and the database locks. β 18:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you give me rollback anyway? I think I'll have to quit Misplaced Pages is it takes this much time ... The way, the truth, and the light (talk) 22:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Based on your edit history and propensity for making questionable decisions (such as edit warring with admins (, , ) or creating pages like Misplaced Pages:Toilet to house "copyrighted, offensive, or libelous content"), I suspect that most admins would be extremely hesitant to give you rollback privileges. --Kralizec! (talk) 00:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Based upon a series of reverts with another administrator at Real social dynamics only today, I'd like to wait a bit. In addition, I don't see how this thread is related inanysoway to rollback rights -- you can use TW or other javascript programs, or perhaps another browser, to edit with. Firefox is riddled with memory leaks. seicer | talk | contribs 00:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I want to just step and say. I use Firefox as my main internet browser and I have never one experienced a lockup while being on Misplaced Pages and it seems to be loading quickly to me. Just wanted to add that. Rgoodermote  16:40, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I concur with the original problem. My browser is presently using 273M and rising. I don't know if the problem is related to Misplaced Pages, as I usually have Misplaced Pages open. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Template:Do not move to Commons

Many images use this template which is a problem because per 17 USC 104(c) and 17 USC 104A USA did NOT agree with Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works's article 7.8 (Rule of the shorter term).

In other words media that are free inside the US but not free outside of the US are in fact not really free inside the US per 17 USC 104(c) and 17 USC 104A.

We should sort this mess out. Commons incompatible "free" images should be unwelcomed to English wikipedia for not being free enough.

-- Cat 15:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps something that the foundation lawyers can sort out? I don't know if this is something a layman can determine with certainty. _(1 == 2) 15:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not want to run to foundation lawyers first thing every time... -- Cat 15:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Making policy decisions based on non-lawyers' interpretation of laws is not a good idea. Mr.Z-man 17:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not interpreting the law. I am quoting something well known and in common practice. Such images for example are deleted in commons. -- Cat 18:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I am sure if there is a need, then somebody will. _(1 == 2) 15:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

There are other license templates that fall into this category...{{PD-US-1923-abroad}} and {{PD-US-1996}} come to mind. Probably worth raising at Misplaced Pages:Copyright. Kelly 18:38, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I was hoping a general discussion on this noticeboard since project talk pages do not get the necesary attention. -- Cat 18:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you're misinterpreting things. This template would be appropriate and correct for a work from a life + 100 country -- in the US, the work would only be copyrighted for life + 70. Likewise, it would be appropriate for works like Peter Pan or the King James Bible: they're under perpetual copyright in the UK, but not in the US. The US did not adopt the rule of the shorter term, but to my knowledge, it did not adopt the rule of the longer term, either. --Carnildo (talk) 19:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Unless you adopt the rule of the shorter term by default you are adopting the rule of the longer term... You are missing the entire point... -- Cat 09:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

There are three options here, not two.

1. The rule of the shorter term: if the copyright in the country of first publication is shorter, use it. A bunch of countries adopted this
2. The rule of the longer term: if the copyright in the country of first publication is longer, use it. I don't know of any country that's done this.
3. Apply your own copyright terms, regardless of the term in the country of first publication. To the best of my knowlege, this is what the US has done.

--Carnildo (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Edit point alpha

• Law isn't a matter of opinion. There are many (far more than three) practices conducted by signatories of the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works. Countries need to ratify each individual article or section in their own laws as the international treaty by itself is meaningless. Not every country chose to ratify "article 7.8" of the Berne Convention for example. In addition Berne sets the minimum amount of protection. Countries may choose to be more restrictive. Berne for example suggests authors life +50 years but US chose to be more restrictive with authors live +70 years. Because the servers are inside the US, only the US laws are binding. Foreign laws are only binding per US law stating that it is.

• 17 USC 104 (above) basically talks about how laws of other signatories of Berne Convention is binding in the US even if the work is not published. 17 USC 104 and particularly 17 USC 104A extends the copyright protection beyond Berne to include non-signatories of Berne such as WTO members and etc. There even is executive privilege over the matter.

• 104A's a-1-b talks about protection unless the work has entered the public domain in the US at some point for whatever the reason. This addresses templates like {{PD-US}}, {{PD-US-1996}} and etc where works made/published in the US somehow become PD. Once a US work becomes PD inside the US, it stays PD forever at least within the US. This also means even if a work becomes PD in the country of origin the "author's life +70 years" may still apply (rule of the long term for you).
• 104A's b explicitly states that the laws of the works origin applies. Fortunately for most countries copyright expires within 70 pma, some as low as 50 pma or even 25 pma. As you can see on the grand list for some countries the copyright term exceeds +70 pmas. Per 104A's b if it is copyrighted in the country of origin it stays copyrighted within the US.
• Tying the two items above together... 104A's a-1-b explicitly states "if the work never entered the public domain in the United States" meaning US law makes no guarantee weather or not the work stays within PD if it did not entered PD within the US. This is 70 pma (post mortem auctoris) rule also per 104A's b the laws of the country of origin apply. Therefore a work may stay copyrighted until it is both PD in the country of origin and for some reason it became PD as per US laws as well. US laws explicitly give priority to the laws of the country of origin.
• On wikipedia we prefer to play it safe per past experience. Unless a works PD'ness is guaranteed by the US law, we treated as if it were copyrighted even if the work became PD in the country of origin. We made this mistake with Template:PD-Soviet. PD-Soviet was based on the fact that "all works published in the Soviet Union before May 27, 1973, were not protected by International Copyright Conventions" which was fine until Russia passed laws renewing copyright of PD-Soviet works. They can do that. Had they renewed after the US 70pma, then it would be a different story but even then it is an unnecesary gray area.
• I do not believe {{PD-US-1923-abroad}} has any legal basis. Or at least the template doesn't link to it. It appears to be wishful thinking at best as is but works published before 1923 are typically safe as in most cases the copyright has already expired and such images should be marked with {{PD-old}} instead.

Is it more clear now? (Misplaced Pages:Non-US copyrights#Dates of restoration and terms of protection answers all three point of yours.)

-- Cat 20:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Copyright duration is determined by Chapter 3, not Chapter 1. --Carnildo (talk) 02:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Please quote the specific legal text you are referring to. -- Cat 09:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

17 USC 302 and 17USC 303: "Copyright in a work created on or after January 1, 1978...endures for a term consisting of the life of the author and 70 years after the author's death." "Copyright in a work created before January 1, 1978, but not theretofore in the public domain or copyrighted, subsists from January 1, 1978, and endures for the term provided by section 302." 17 USC 104(c) may also be of interest: "No right or interest in a work eligible for protection under this title may be claimed by virtue of, or in reliance upon, the provisions of the Berne Convention, or the adherence of the United States thereto. Any rights in a work eligible for protection under this title that derive from this title, other Federal or State statutes, or the common law, shall not be expanded or reduced by virtue of, or in reliance upon, the provisions of the Berne Convention, or the adherence of the United States thereto", as may 17 USC 301(a): "On and after January 1, 1978, all legal or equitable rights that are equivalent to any of the exclusive rights within the general scope of copyright as specified by section 106 in works of authorship that are fixed in a tangible medium of expression and come within the subject matter of copyright as specified by sections 102 and 103, whether created before or after that date and whether published or unpublished, are governed exclusively by this title. Thereafter, no person is entitled to any such right or equivalent right in any such work under the common law or statutes of any State." In short, the only thing that determines the term of copyright in the US is 17 USC 302 and 17 USC 303. --Carnildo (talk) 19:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Template:Somewebsite

What's the point of waiting for a week before deleting crap uploaded with that tag, instead of nuking on sight? Shouldn't it be a custom CSD tag, like {{Non-commercial from license selector}}? MaxSem 16:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

It gives the uploader a week to fix the problems -- not likely, but it sometimes happens. An unsourced image is not inherently unusable on Misplaced Pages, unlike a non-commercial-only image. --Carnildo (talk) 19:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

We do not have a deadline. Waiting a week or even a month will do no harm and has potential benefit. If there is no improvement in the arbitrary amount of time, it is easy enough to nuke it. -- Cat 22:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

A question on attacks

If a user says he doesn't have to listen to what I say because I haven't contributed "substantial, meaty and scholarly articles," can such statements be categorized as a personal attack? Grsz 03:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it could be considered a blatant personal attack in the sense that would result in a harsh warning, but it's definitely unwarranted, no matter what you've contributed. Criticism is made no more or less valid by the person who is performing the criticism. Veinor 03:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

If you're looking to find the meat of NPA, then you would not have a case. Personal attacks are those aimed at the author unbiased of contributions (there are always caviats). This user was making a comment based on contributions. So there's the fine line. Was it nice? No. We do have etiquette. No warrant for administrative action, I'd just play nice and find out what the problem is. Keegan 05:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Vernier and Keegan, however Misplaced Pages:NPA#Personal_attacks does note "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream.". Probably does not apply, but worth noting. What was said was incivil and certainly not a nice thing to say to someone. Good faith Opinions on any subject a user has an interest in should always be welcomed. --Hu12 (talk) 05:30, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The argument is also a logical fallacy. See ad hominem. Durova 17:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Just tell him he's being silly. MastCell  17:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Nothing444

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus is clear. The block stands. No need to continue the pile on. - KnightLago (talk) 22:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I, for one, am getting tired of seeing this name, but is anybody else uncomfortable with User:Nothing444 trying his hand at mediation? – ClockworkSoul 07:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

As I indicated Wikipedia_talk:Mediation_Cabal#Objection_to_mediator, I am strongly opposed to letting Nothing444 do WP:DR. MBisanz 07:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

• I'd have to agree here, from how I've seen his conduct/contributions, both on en wiki and on an external wiki, I'm not convinced that he would be an effective mediator. Steve Crossin (talk) (anon talk) 07:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
• Agree, he's not ready to mediate. He's inexperienced with mainspace and content disputes, he has recent blocks, he misunderstands lots of things on Misplaced Pages, as highlighted by Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)#Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Cabal and Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Nothing444 2. Probably, namespace ban could be appropriate, if he continues. MaxSem 07:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
• Suggest making him (and the others usually mentioned when his name comes up) take Fillls AG challenge. Not the multiple choice either. Also, I would possibly find any dispute I was in would degenerate to an unworkable mess if he contributed to DR. Dan Beale-Cocks 08:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
• Yesterday I was one Ctrl-V away from silencing him on IRC. Make what you will of that. --Deskana (talk) 11:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Namespace restriction

What is the feeling on some sort of namespace restriction for Nothing444 (talk · contribs). Maybe that he can only edit article, Talk, and User talk:? MBisanz 08:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The Gp75motosports monobook solution is a good one. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 09:07, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this user is already under namespace restriction per and has been ignoring it. I'm thinking this Medcab issue now warrants a 1 to 2 week block. MBisanz 09:16, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

• I don't see a need for a new namespace restriction. Simply tell him that with regret, the Admin Cabal has decided that his presence at the Mediation Cabal is not appropriate at this time. Stifle (talk) 11:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking that we need to go beyond the "please don't edit outside the mainspace" phase, and move on to something more restrictive. As we've seen again and again this user, though well meaning, tends to color way outside the lines. Perhaps he needs to be told, once and for all, that for the next three months, if he edits outside or main or user, he'll be subject to blocks of increasing duration. I've been watching him very closely, and I think it would be best for all involved parties if he's fenced in for a little while. – ClockworkSoul 13:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

In a way it's a shame that his RfA was closed so early as SNOW. The pile on, had it been left open of editors saying "NO" might have given him a clue. Dan Beale-Cocks 13:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I tend to dislike draconian measures, but, given what I've seen over the last month, I think what I put at User_talk:Nothing444#Explanation_required is entirely warranted. MBisanz 14:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. This user's behaviour has been causing problems for some time and firmer action is needed. Hut 8.5 14:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I also agree. This discussion last night (as a result of this note I left on his talk page) shows his inability to accept advice when dealing in the user talk space. I think a restriction is needed. And I think that he needs to avoid new page and recent changes patrols because he cannot A. fully grasp the policies and B. cannot communicate with others effectively. Metros (talk) 15:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I endorse MBisanz and Metros' comments, and support a further restriction. - Philippe 15:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

As do I. I'm very against draconian measures myself, which is why I unblocked him not once but twice. Really, I think we gave him plenty of rope and he went and got himself all tangled up in it. – ClockworkSoul 17:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

This specific case has already been resolved, but we need to stop trying to force these editors to edit articles. When they're obviously incompetent, the last thing we want them to do is touch important things. I have no strong opinion on whether we should tolerate their playing in user space, but telling them "you must edit articles" is just plain harmful. Friday (talk) 18:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Blocked

I have blocked Nothing444 indefinitely for a recent act of pure vandalism to Photochrom. My extended reasoning can be found at their talkpage; I'm in far too much of a slothlike mode to draft a second extended statement here. :-) east.718 at 18:04, April 25, 2008

• I endorse this block. MBisanz 18:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
• I endorse as well. I am tired of the games with this user. They are obviously not here to contribute constructively. Enough is enough. KnightLago (talk) 18:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
• I also endorse this block, per this (admins only), which was what was added to Photochrom above. Ral315 (talk) 18:11, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
• Endorse. - Rjd0060 (talk) 18:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
• Dogpile plus me. – ClockworkSoul 18:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
• Endorse. His subpages will need to be deleted or redirected to his userpage as a result. Also, this seems to be a blank RFA for him created by him. D.M.N. (talk) 18:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I've added {{indef}} to his navbar. Mc_rochip  (non admin) 18:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved – backlog cleared, Tiptoety 18:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Resolved – Nothing there right now... —αlεx•mullεr 23:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards