Misplaced Pages

August 17 21-24

• delete please this is not a move in the best of directions Yuckfoo 21:14, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Are we going to censor a group of people discussing censorship? Just thinking a moment about that contradiction more than fulfills my daily requirement for irony. -- llywrch 21:16, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Delete the whole concept of decency is very POV and very un-wiki. If Misplaced Pages is in violation of Florida law, then we should look into moving the servers, not compromising our values. --Outlander 21:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
• Surely the key point in here is that it hasn't been established that the Florida Decency Law affects Misplaced Pages, or to what extent it does affect it. Given that it is accepted on all sides of the debate that 'Misplaced Pages is not censored for minors' is a good policy, then we have to examine to what extent it may impact on image policy - and this is a legal question and not really a matter of Misplaced Pages policy judgment. Therefore I vote rename as Misplaced Pages:Wikiproject Florida Decency law investigation, and target it at lawyers who know about it. After reading Jimbo's email, it seems there really isn't a problem, and therefore I change vote to delete. I suspect that the Wikiproject is really an attempt to subvert the 'no censorship for minors' policy in a POV way. David | Talk 09:15, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete - just all around silly. Slac speak up! 22:09, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete ,bad precendent yadda yadda wikipedia is not yadda yadda most of the salient points have been covered before yadda yadda. Incidentally, I fail to see how this is a wikiproject. The project I nominally contribute to, the bird one, is about creating standardised bird articles, not deleting ones we don't like. Most of the other projects seem to be about that too. If people want to create policy, or form a consensus, do it in the right places. And then watch the community's reaction to their prudish sensibilities. (Incidentally, why would any kid looking for filth come here. 10 keystrokes and one click on google is all it takes to find a world of filth on the web!)Sabine's Sunbird
• Delete, Pavel Vozenilek 22:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, delete, delete. Misplaced Pages isn't censored. No way I'll be endorsing a morality police squad. · Katefan0 22:33, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

A prime example of the kind of overreaching red-pen agenda I'm concerned about: The project template has just been added to Bisexuality and Homosexuality. This is entirely different than discussing, say, an image of autofellatio. Would we see it added to Jerry Falwell? I find him wholly indecent. · Katefan0 22:46, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

The edit differences are for Bisexuality and for Homosexuality. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 22:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Good grief, now homosexuality and bisexuality are "pornographic" and "likely to get Misplaced Pages shut down"? Somebody ought to tell these guys that we don't live in the 14th century any more. — JIP | Talk 06:29, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Keep, I disagree with the project but deleting the project page isn't the way to fix the problem, nor will I expect that it will (see FCYTravis' comment above, which I agree with). Also, this does not fall under any criterion in Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy that is resolved at VfD. JYolkowski // talk 22:37, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. Perfectly valid set of editing ambitions, and a project page to co-ordinate those, just like with many other interest groups who co-ordinate their editing. Should be entirely above board - and it's better having such a thing out in the open. zoney ♣ talk 22:36, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete: Futher Mucker, I wrote a long comment on here earlier today, but my connection timed out and I lost it. If anybody would like to know why i'm voting the way I am, just contact my talk page. I'm sure this will stick around for awhile anyway. And Jimbo, if Florida gives you any problems, I vote making redundant servers across the globe... or at least moving the main servers to Sealand ;-) Karmafist 22:08, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Delete: I'm 99% sure the page itself is just a troll. But even if meant in earnest, WP already has editorial mechanisms for appropriateness. And what is important is encyclopedic quality, not so-called decency. By the existing standards, some "indecent" content might well be candidate for deletion, but let's do that the right (existing) way. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 23:01, 2005 August 17 (UTC)

• Current vote tally is 62 "Delete" to 42 "Keep" +/- 3 votes.Gateman1997 22:39, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Keep What difference does it make? Let 'em have their club. Nothing that group comes up with is going to change what goes into articles. Did someone appoint them king and I didn't get the memo? To think that Florida law is going to shut down this site for some random image on some article is completely absurd. If some group of fussbudgets wants to worry about that anyway, or pretend to worry about it as a cover for something else, I don't care. Better to have them come out of the woodwork anyway. (Filth like Casey James, for Pete's sake.) Agree with Geogre, BDAbramson, and a buncha others too. -EDM 23:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
• Rename to Misplaced Pages:Wikiproject censorship and delete. --Carnildo 23:18, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Keep I don't really see how anyone can vote "delete" to a wikiproject page, especially this one. It's like saying "there are no indecent pages, except for this one?" (in other news, "there are no absolutes... except this one"?). Is it so hard to argue rather than censor?--67.101.68.103 23:19, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, or at least rename "WikiProject Inserting Systemic Bias." -- Visviva 23:26, 17 August 2005 (UTC) (changed vote, see below)
• Keep and Ignore: Let them have their club. If they start revert wars, they can always be banned. -- Bobdoe (Talk) 23:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. To what's been said above, little can be added; mainly, the problem is that the project was designed to push a POV about "decency" and is basically the work of People for the Removal of Undesired Depictions of Encyclopedic Stuff (PRUDES). I was also disturbed by the way that 'Bible', 'Islam', and other articles were spammed. I suggest that this project be deleted and that a more general "IFDPatrol" project be started, which is based on the criteria of appropriate license, use in an article, and encyclopedic nature. "Voting our conscience" is irrelevant to Images and Other Media for Deletion. The project encourages people to vote on the wrong set of criteria. --Peter Kirby 23:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• I change my vote to Keep and Rename, after reading Jimbo's 2 cents(this is more what I meant in the first place anyway). That is, I would like it renamed to "IFDPatrol." --Peter Kirby 09:43, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. This shouldn't be a Wikiproject, but a discussion on policy at Misplaced Pages talk:Images and media for deletion. Martg76 23:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Isn't that an argument for moving, rather than deleting? -- Visviva 01:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep This is a perfectly valid attempt to improve the project. The non-censorship thing is not one of the Five Pillars of Misplaced Pages, so it is negotiable. Some people seem to think that all attempts to improve standards of taste are evil, but Misplaced Pages is probably the only major encyclopedia that has ever existed which makes no attempt to restrain the use of controversial images.

As for bias Misplaced Pages has very obvious bias - it is controlled by groovy permissives. This reflects the fact it was set up by a soft core pornographer, but it is time to transcend that unfortunate origin. Osomec 23:59, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• • Comment, User:Jimbo was a pornographer?Gateman1997 00:11, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

August 18

• Strong delete - Any project based upon POV pushing should be deleted as a matter of common sense. The entire concept of the group is against policy and counterintellectual. There is also precedent for deletion, like when the FACTS group (organized to push "respect" for creation "science" was formed and killed. DreamGuy 00:11, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
• Strong keep Andycjp 18th August 2005
• Delete This project is blatantly unnecessary. Misplaced Pages seems to be in the clear legally so far as images used in articles, and orphaned images are already regularly ifd'ed. --Laura Scudder | Talk 00:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Deleting this will only fan the flames. I don't entirely agree with the way the project has been set up, but it should be modified (and possibly moved to a different name), not deleted. -Aranel ("Sarah") 00:39, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep as per BDAbramson. I don't like where this leads from a morlistic viewpoint, but I am trusting that admins will not succumb to pressure from moralistic interest groups pushing an agenda of "moral purity". To such people I spurn thee and rebuke thee! Hamster Sandwich 01:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Plus, it's like when clowns all pile into a car. Then at least you know where they all are. Hamster Sandwich 01:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete unless an NPOV standard for what is/is not indecent can be established. -Seth Mahoney 01:11, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Seth, that was the point. 1 of the 2 major purposes was to initiate that discussion. --Noitall 01:25, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. Creating a standard is not impossible; without a standard we degenerate to the lowest possible denominator. As is evident by some of the things that pass for "encyclopedic" on WIKI, it can get very low indeed. Storm Rider 01:19, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete and move to BJAODN, thanks guys, I needed the laugh--172.167.11.125 01:33, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep but move out of Wikiproject space. We already have a precedent of Misplaced Pages:Wikipedians XYZ pages, and this seems like it would be more comfortable there. There is, unfortunately, precedent for keeping political groups on Misplaced Pages. It would be silly to delete any of them unless we can delete all of them. -- Visviva 01:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Comment: I sympathize with User:Agriculture. This VfD is bringing out the worst in the community. -- Visviva 01:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I absolutely agree. I think just about everyone here has completely forgotten themselves in this mess. It's a damn shame. - Haunti 01:43, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Proves my point...stand next to somewone in a line they'll be nice to you...put them behind the screen of the computer and shelter them and they show what cowards they truly are with the slanders they have lodged against a few here. Anon Ip's votes should all be summarily dismissed.--MONGO 03:14, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
  • Thirded. A shame indeed. Whoever thought that using personal attacks would be useful should read up on their policies. --Titoxd 02:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Strong delete, per Harmil and Katefan0. Extraordinary Machine 01:43, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. Sarge Baldy 01:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. Exploding Boy 02:03, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

• Delete and send whoever created it back to whatever blog they came from, a ruling wiki-council would make this into a message board, or a blog, but not an exchange of ideas, or information--172.173.85.232 02:25, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Delete. The concept of "Decency" is POV and is too ingrained in this project for a rename/move to fix that. ESkog 03:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete with extreme prejudice. If desired, those involved can fork to the Crazypedia, where the Faith-based community can leave those of us in the Reality-based community behind. Flyers13 03:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete Misplaced Pages is not the place for censorship. Do what I do: Cover the right side of the computer screen with your hand when visiting the autofellatio article. Acetic Acid 03:11, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

• • Thanks Karmafist! --Ryan Norton 03:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. I understand that there may be people out there who object to elements of Misplaced Pages. They are more than welcome to start their own competing encyclopedia. In fact I encourage it. The more the merrier, I say. 23skidoo 03:25, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • What element of Misplaced Pages does the project contradict...? I mean, it would make sense if they were opposed to neutrality, or objected to the idea of consensus-based editing, that you could suggest that they leave. But it doesn't look to me like anybody is objecting to any fundamental element of Misplaced Pages. Everyking 04:04, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• STRONG KEEP How ironic is it that you're all trying to censor someone for alleged censorship, heil comrade!--I-2-d2 03:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • It is even more ironic that you should say this. Being that in the history of this very page you were deleting votes you didn't agree with. You are under consideration for being a sockpuppet made just to post VfD pages on those you don't agree with, and you tend to post vandalism warnings in the pages those who profess views other than your own. All in all I think you are a poster child for arbitrary censorship when it fits your views. --Darkfred 11:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Delete. The concept of "decency" defies NPOV clarification, and such a project will never achieve NPOV. Additional comment - I have attempted to vote here once and was (I assume) overridden by someone else ignoring the "page altered" warning - this history could be quite a squirrely mess by the end if anyone attempts to actually count this. ESkog 03:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Delete. Aren't images screened in the same way recent changes are monitored, through a list? --Zoop 04:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Keep, yet again someone has deleted my vote it seems, all in the name of "anit"censorship, I guess, you can never tell--I-2-d2 04:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • This is somewhat ironic since you were deleting others votes earlier in this thread, See my comment in your restored vote above. --Darkfred 11:40, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Strong delete Misplaced Pages isn't, and shouldn't be, censored for minors - the normal editorial process should solve any problems. Unsigned comment by 68.236.34.82 (talk • contribs) 04:10, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Keep These folks are wrong in where they're coming from and wrong about the Florida law. (The people saying a vote to delete is censorship are also wrong; they can talk about it elsewhere, and only the gov't can censor you.) But there's no reason not to let them have a place to discuss these views on WP. And there's no reason WP shouldn't be decent. Example: a picture of autofellatio in the autofellatio article is decent. A picture of autofellatio in the Disney article would be indecent. See how that works? --DavidConrad 04:47, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Weak Keep and Rename - Voting here as an ordinary editor. I think that it would be a good thing overall if we had an ongoing community process with input from a lot of different people of different viewpoints to bring a little bit more consistency and clearly formulated policy in this area. I don't think this is primarily a legal issue (though in some very difficult to imagine cases, I suppose it could be) but rather an issue of quality. I think that neither 'delete all nudity' nor 'never delete any nudity lest the censors win any victories' are persuasive positions and that instead, we need to think hard about the issue. 'Wikipedians for Decency' is a one-sided title for such a working group, though. I would suggest something more neutral. There is such a thing as delicate content, and there is such a thing as a mature and respectful way to handle it. We are constantly being trolled on this issue, too, i.e. I think that opinions *within* wikipedia are not the same as the arguments we're forced into by people who post absurd images just to tweak us. Again, to repeat, I am not making policy here, just throwing in my two cents worth like anyone else.--Jimbo Wales 05:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. I disagree with the aims of the project and how they are doing it. However, I do believe that it is right to let the project exist. -- JamesTeterenko 05:15, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• delete WP:NOT. --Irpen 05:33, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. Makes it easier to keep track of the few misguided users who are caught up in this moral panic. Rhobite 05:54, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
• This is probably the most interesting case I've ever seen on VfD. Nothing compares. I mean, certainly, I think their aims are not only not laudable but actively contrary to the spirit of Misplaced Pages, but that's not the point here. I am, for now, voting keep, with as much weakness as can be emphasized. Now, if this becomes a breeding ground for people changing every penis picture to a daffodil or something, I'll change my mind post-haste. Lord Bob 07:55, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Delete--Cyberjunkie | Talk 08:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• STRONG DELETE It reminds me of Thomas BowdLer. Misplaced Pages may have content that is objectionable or offensive. If you don't like an article, hit alt+x and go to a random article. --Barista | a/k/a マイケル | T/C 08:58, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. I disagree with the "Delete" voters who cry censorship. Wikipedians are free to argue for removal of particular images, etc., and are even free to argue that the encyclopedia should be censored for minors (though I'd disagree with them). My answer to "Let 'em have their club" (EDM) is that it's fine if they want to call it a club. They can coordinate their arguments, assign images/articles to be reviewed for possible attack so the "decency" users don't duplicate their efforts, etc. The problem is that to call their club a "WikiProject" would confuse many people into thinking it's official, especially since it's plausible that there could be an official organ (sorry, couldn't resist) charged with enforcing a standard about offensive material. As Sabine's Sunbird points out below, it also doesn't meet the definition of a WikiProject. Can't the "club" just be set up as a subpage on some user's space? Deletion of the WikiProject won't prevent anyone from userfying the current content. JamesMLane 09:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Strong keep, even though I fundamentally disagree with it. Asking for a page to be deleted on anti-censorship grounds is stupid. Robin Johnson 10:06, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Any project like this is inherently POV. I'm sure you wouldn't be pleased if I formed a project to push a communist viewpoint throughout the wiki. Besides you should have a pretty good idea of what to expect while visiting the autofellatio page GreatGodOm 10:09, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. This looks like a project to push a certain POV, which projects should never do. --Conti|✉ 10:10, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Life's too short to waste time on this round in circles debate. DavidFarmbrough 12:29 GMT 18 August 2005
• Delete. --Viriditas | Talk 10:28, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. It is interesting that those that argue for free-speech in other places are seeking to strangle it here. Trödel|talk 10:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete on the grounds that Misplaced Pages is not censored for the protection of minors, and that this is an inherently POV concept. The members of this project are welcome to open debate on changing Misplaced Pages policies, but a Wikiproject is not the way to do that. Ken 11:04, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. The project in its present name and form is unfortunate, but censorship of censorship is still censorship. Editors are allowed to object to all sorts of things. There are groups of deletionists, inclusionists, martial artists, Buddhists, etc., this is objectively no different. Why shouldn't users who are honestly offended or at least disgusted by something they feel is distasteful be allowed to say so? Or act on that judgment? Whether a statement of such a feeling or an action based on such a feeling should be allowed to stay in (or at least influence) an article will be determined by consensus of everyone concerned as with everything else. Ideally, this should be just another tool for a group of editors who agree on something. Fire Star 11:08, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete --Zeno of Elea 11:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete with vengeance, this project tears the community apart, creates an Us vrs. Them mentality. Misplaced Pages is about working together towards concensus, we shouldn't support clicks of ideologs, this is the opposite of concensus building. --Darkfred 11:54, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. The concept of ensuring Misplaced Pages does not fall foul of laws is a valid one. This project goes significantly beyond that limited aim. I would consider the "this page is being watched for indecency" boilerplate of the project itself an irritating form of censorship. Look beyond the 'autofellatio' discussion. If this project is allowed to remain, then it creates a precedent for all sorts of censorhip on the basis of jumping at all sorts of legal and moral shadows. The Land 12:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Delete - Censor your own internet if you want, but leave mine alone. Creating a project to bring things in line with some arbitrary standard of "decency" smacks of both censorship, and of moving everything in line with some gradoise "moral code". This is an encyclopedia, occasionally it will have to cover "indecent" subject matter. Allowing this "project" to work will only result in massive fights between the editors of so-called "indecent" content and the project's members. Arcuras 12:11, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. A solution -- a very bad solution is search of a problem. Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure. --Calton | Talk 12:54, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

• Speedy delete! This is antiwiki censorship, and absolutely ridiculous. --Merovingian (t) (c) 13:46, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. The responses from this project's opponents - which have often taken the form of crude as well as vicious personal attacks - have only confirmed the need for some minimal standards to be enforced. Many educators forbid their students from making any use of Misplaced Pages, which is widely regarded as a silly and often vulgar 'blog' - meaning that if it's ever going to be taken seriously as an 'encyclopedia', it badly needs to be cleaned up. AWilliamson 14:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Many educators also try to forbit their students from learning about evolution and sex education. However, that does not mean we should remove references to evolution and sex from Misplaced Pages to appease them. Misplaced Pages is not censored for the protection of minors, or their moralistic teachers. - Haunti 14:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
    • I was referring to secular university professors, not fundamentalists. Most educators, regardless of their political or religious views or the age level of their students, generally want materials to consist of something other than four-letter words and photos of the editors' private parts. AWilliamson 14:56, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Point of Interest 1

Note the number of personal attacks leveled at the supposed character of the members of the project. I don't feel such is appropriate in this discussion. Agriculture 06:38, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Another point of interest: Agriculture, I don't feel it's appropriate to post an aggressive rejoinder under every single vote you disagree with. It's not necessary, or customary, or well-regarded. Bishonen | talk 07:01, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

If you feel I have been aggressive and uncivil, please point out how and I will rectify it, I am merely trying to point out that a lot of people don't seem to have perused all the documents in question and don't seem to even understand the clearly stated purpose of the WikiProject. Agriculture 07:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

He has every right to discuss people's votes. That's what this process is about. I don't think he's been unduly aggressive, even if he's well advised not to bicker with everyone about it. I note that you didn't censure any of the very aggressive commenters that have put the boot into him. Grace Note 03:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Hey Grace, I appreciate the kind words and help, but he's right. I broke the prime rule of Misplaced Pages, I forgot that only certain types of free speech are welcome here. Thus why none of the others got censured, they were the right kind of free speech, not the wrong kind. Agriculture 04:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Certain users are continually deleting my comments to misrepresent my views on this page. I request they be made to stop. Agriculture 07:25, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Legitimate and highly pertinent question: What jurisdiction does the State of Florida hold over Misplaced Pages? Can we get a lawyer to answer this? Fernando Rizo T/C 07:28, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
  • The wikipedia servers are located in Florida, Jimbo says we must follow Florida Law. Agriculture 07:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I do not feel it appropriate for Agriculture to try to engage in debate with every person voting delete. I'll assume good faith but notice how many trolls do just that? Please do not hound those who vote different than you, especially at VfD. Thanks, Redwolf24 07:28, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I will cut it down then as you request. I feel the users below have not even read the article in question and are rallying to enforce a POV on Misplaced Pages. I qualify this by pointing out that if one reads the article in question, most of the objections below don't make much sense in context as they object to things not proposed. I will cease editing for tonight but reserve the right to restore any deleted comments. Agriculture 07:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

They're rallying to enforce a POV on wikipedia, well aren't you rallying to enfore YOURS? By the way my intent is by no means to sound hostile and I'm not trying to start a fight. Respectfully, Redwolf24 07:32, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm simply rallying to try and preserve a page where people can discuss all POV's and try to come to a NPOV decision on decency as Misplaced Pages Standards, Guidelines, and Florida Law define it. How is that POV? Their POV is that "anyone wanting to discuss standards of decency must be prudes and shouldn't be editing Misplaced Pages". Agriculture 07:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Mmmhmm, I'm not gonna retort as I'm not interested in an arguement. Now allow me to move this to the bottom as the top should always be the votes. Redwolf24 07:38, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Applicable Florida Law

847.011 Prohibition of certain acts in connection with obscene, lewd, etc., materials; penalty.--

(1)(a) Any person who knowingly sells, lends, gives away, distributes, transmits, shows, or transmutes, or offers to sell, lend, give away, distribute, transmit, show, or transmute, or has in his or her possession, custody, or control with intent to sell, lend, give away, distribute, transmit, show, transmute, or advertise in any manner, any obscene book, magazine, periodical, pamphlet, newspaper, comic book, story paper, written or printed story or article, writing, paper, card, picture, drawing, photograph, motion picture film, figure, image, phonograph record, or wire or tape or other recording, or any written, printed, or recorded matter of any such character which may or may not require mechanical or other means to be transmuted into auditory, visual, or sensory representations of such character, or any article or instrument for obscene use, or purporting to be for obscene use or purpose; or who knowingly designs, copies, draws, photographs, poses for, writes, prints, publishes, or in any manner whatsoever manufactures or prepares any such material, matter, article, or thing of any such character; or who knowingly writes, prints, publishes, or utters, or causes to be written, printed, published, or uttered, any advertisement or notice of any kind, giving information, directly or indirectly, stating, or purporting to state, where, how, of whom, or by what means any, or what purports to be any, such material, matter, article, or thing of any such character can be purchased, obtained, or had; or who in any manner knowingly hires, employs, uses, or permits any person knowingly to do or assist in doing any act or thing mentioned above, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. A person who, after having been convicted of a violation of this subsection, thereafter violates any of its provisions, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(b) The knowing possession by any person of three or more identical or similar materials, matters, articles, or things coming within the provisions of paragraph (a) is prima facie evidence of the violation of said paragraph.

(2) A person who knowingly has in his or her possession, custody, or control any obscene book, magazine, periodical, pamphlet, newspaper, comic book, story paper, written or printed story or article, writing, paper, card, picture, drawing, photograph, motion picture film, film, any sticker, decal, emblem or other device attached to a motor vehicle containing obscene descriptions, photographs, or depictions, any figure, image, phonograph record, or wire or tape or other recording, or any written, printed, or recorded matter of any such character which may or may not require mechanical or other means to be transmuted into auditory, visual, or sensory representations of such character, or any article or instrument for obscene use, or purporting to be for obscene use or purpose, without intent to sell, lend, give away, distribute, transmit, show, transmute, or advertise the same, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. A person who, after having been convicted of violating this subsection, thereafter violates any of its provisions is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. In any prosecution for such possession, it shall not be necessary to allege or prove the absence of such intent. ...

You left out the part that in order to be obscene the work must be such that: "Taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value". Certainly as a whole Misplaced Pages has literary merit and aside from the most obviously unencyclopedic stuff, virtually all part of Misplaced Pages have literary, artistic and/or scientific value. Dragons flight 07:07, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

That doesn't appear to be part of Florida law, and so doesn't apply. Plus the whole isn't necessarily what should be taken into account, the parts are important too. Agriculture 07:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It is in Section 001 where they define "obscene". Dragons flight 07:19, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

It's also the U.S. Supreme Court's definition of obscene. Which makes it apply, any state law to the contrary notwithstanding. FCYTravis 07:20, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I agree then, but I think we need to discuss how to determine if the images on Misplaced Pages have these values which protect them. That is what the project is for, discussion. Agriculture 07:21, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

The images on Misplaced Pages have these values because they are on Misplaced Pages - all of the potentially objectionable images that we display are in the context of articles that are meant to inform users of physiological, biological, sociological, or historical facts, and are therefore at least of literary or scientific value. -- BDAbramson 12:58, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

The Supreme Court has ruled that , under obscenity review, a work must be considered in its entirety. Individual elements can not count for or against the work. Misplaced Pages is Misplaced Pages, not a collection of individual elements. --Outlander 22:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Wow! That's some pretty messed up legislation. I'm glad that I don't live in Florida. --Apyule 07:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

You've mentioned several times that that section says you can't distribute such images to minors. For the record, the section that discusses minors, section 012 , says "It is unlawful for any person knowingly to sell, rent, or loan for monetary consideration to a minor: (a) Any picture... which depicts nudity or sexual conduct". Since we are neither selling, renting nor loaning for monetary consideration, the section doesn't apply. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 13:09, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

You forgot this part: lend, give away, distribute, transmit, show, transmute, or advertise in any manner,...the law applies absolutely.--MONGO 14:51, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Asbestos was talking about Section 12, the one specifically about minors. That does not include the text you have in italics, and furthermore contains the requirement that the material be "harmful to minors", which is defined in Section 1 with the usual "no serious value" etc of the standard obscenity definition. PeteVerdon 15:56, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Point of interest 2

User:Agriculture has indicated on Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion that he/she doesn't think that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, and that "most bodies" hold this same view, though when asked to point to proof of his claim, he resues to do so. Just something worth pointing out. Zoe 07:39, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

• Anyone who reads Slashdot has seen the article, I've had enough stress tonight to bother with being your gopher. I want to help make Misplaced Pages more encyclopedic, I just pointed out the view of others in reference to a conversation which must be seen in context. Agriculture 07:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
  • What does being your gopher mean? Redwolf24 07:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Doing busy work because someone else has requested you to do so, especially when it will make no difference. Agriculture 07:46, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Gopher this, gopher that... A person that goes-fer :p --Veratien 12:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Vote for deletion. Useless ideology is worthless, to conform with Florida law it'd be possible to just block all incoming IP traffic from Florida. Lullabye Muse 08:16, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

An amusing but highly unlikely outcome. :p However, this 'Florida Law' problem could be rectifed by moving the servers to Switzerland... :p --Veratien 12:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Point of interest 3

Repeatedly, I see that some suggest moving the servers out of Florida...unfortunately most states have similar legislation regarding these issues. Everyone needs to take a step back and recognize that the people attempting to start this project are not your enemies...we all enjoy the benefits of a free Misplaced Pages. The purpose of this project was to establish some baseline from which to both adhere to written law and ensure that Misplaced Pages becomes the most respected source of information on the web. There are some, such as myself that feel that some items in Misplaced Pages are not encyclopedic and possibly violate applicable laws. We may be right and we may be wrong. Censorship of this project is a double standard.--MONGO 10:03, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Is Montana in the south...maybe compared to Canada. Read some history...more guns+more men=victory, in almost every instance.--MONGO 13:27, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

A good point. Jimbo Wales, I recall, deleted the Autofelliato image stating that it had no absolutely no place on Misplaced Pages. Anyway, as said before, this project aims to set a standard for what belongs and what does not. At the same time, it would be nice to keep with Florida Law. P.S. Peace everyone, why is this debate so violent? Banes 10:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

What about moving the servers to Tuvalu or Antarctica ? ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 10:46, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I think moving the servers to Antarctica would be cool, ha ha, get it? cool. Giggle giggle snort;(Please ignore that weak attempt at humor.) Moving along, IByte, you must put your vote above this where the other votes are. Banes 11:56, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Delete as potentially harmful to the fundamental principles of Misplaced Pages. Pornographic images can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis without an organized censorship campaign. Haikupoet 20:00, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Point of Interest 4

Regardless of what the outcome is, I suggest that the result of this vote be treated as Delete, the number of personal attacks leveled above and the extreme bias against discussion exhibited by a number of the voters indicates even if the result is No consensus or Keep, they will see to it that no real discussion can be had, and disrupt any attempts at dialog. Note the user who has "signed up" for the project with the outrageous comment that objectionable content needs to be placed on every page. This kind of disruptive attitude will just result in a lot of useless work by project members at attempting to discuss while countless acts of vandalism are committed by those who disagree with the discussion because it is after all the wrong kind of free speech for Misplaced Pages. As such save us all a lot work and stress and Speedy Delete. Agriculture 15:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

The Project endorses the removal of educational images. Why do you think it's being mocked? -- A Link to the Past 15:55, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

No, it endorses discussion. We're being mocked because people have no respect for civility in discussion. But then this is Misplaced Pages, being civil is against Misplaced Pages Policy. Agriculture 16:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Discussion is not policy, discussion is merely discussion. Agriculture 16:16, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah, no to you, you do have the right to be an overt bible thumper, you do not have the right make that into policy, removing a policy of censorship, is no more a form of censorship, then removing a persons 'right' to own slaves, is civil rights violation--172.130.8.51 16:13, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

So, like, it wouldn't be a problem for a project to endorse racism on Misplaced Pages? This needs not any discussion; there is no logical dispute that an image like Autofellatio is not educational. -- A Link to the Past 16:10, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Seems like your opinion consists of "My POV is NPOV, all others are irrelevant and no logical dispute can be made but mine." Agriculture 16:16, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It is. If you had a logical dispute, it would have been presented. You're stumbling over what you say, and your argument is constantly changing to suit it ("well, okay, educational images are protected, but I say they're not educational!"). It just seems you're on a crusade to put your personal opinion on decency into articles. Should we delete Sex, Anal sex and Oral sex? -- A Link to the Past 16:31, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

As a note, I'm taking advice I've been given and not feeding the troll. Agriculture 16:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Trolling =/= Trying to uphold Wikipedian policy. And, by the way, stating the fact that your argument lacks logic is not trolling, either. -- A Link to the Past 16:49, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

• ok, how about instead of deletion, we propose soemthing else, a foward/move to Wikipedians_for_Decency so it doesn't look like Wiki is endorcing you, or giving you some kind of special status?--172.130.8.51 16:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Look here, Link to the Past, why is a color photograph of a man sucking his own penis more educational than a simple drawing. Educational? I was never taught how to do that in school! Must have gone to the wrong place...grumble grumble.. Anyway guys, please stop calling each other trolls because that is in itself trolling. Peace Out! Banes 18:23, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

The autofellatio image is not educational. It's pure pornography vandalism. So what? That doesn't mean all the other stuff is too. In case you've forgot, the autofellatio image is not the only thing currently being disputed here. I accept all those articles about big-breasted porn stars but not the autofellatio image. Don't throw out the whole basket of apples because one of them is rotten, or however you say in English. — JIP | Talk 08:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

See speedy keep above

Ok, let's actually stop vfding the wikipedia: namespace, as per original policy.

I'd like to close this vfd and warn the nominator, within the next 24 hours. Any objections?

Kim Bruning 14:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, do you mean delete the project or close this page? Banes 14:22, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Kim means that she wants to close the VfD, and yes, Kim, I object. There is no rule that says that you cannot VfD the wikipedia: namespace. See . Sdedeo 14:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
• Yes, there are a whole bunch of objections up above, labelled as delete votes. I don't recall a policy that says WP: space is somehow out of scope to VfD. -Splash 14:27, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

  Support the closure of this Vfd...nominator even stated that Vfd's in WikiProjects namespaces is unusual....I propose the section regarding tagging of "indecent" articles and images be eliminated along with the template that goes with it.--MONGO 14:26, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

• Of course you can VfD a WikiProject or a page in the Misplaced Pages: namespace. The nominator has broken no rules. This is manifestly not a speedy keep. David | Talk 14:28, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
• Object. Kim, this project needs to be punched in the face. Punch! -- A Link to the Past 14:31, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
• I think this may be an important vote which should continue. Note that the nomination policy says "pages in Misplaced Pages namespace... can be nominated for deletion on VfD, and can be deleted as such. However, this is relatively rare." ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 14:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

*Nod* while it's possible to delete pages in the Misplaced Pages: project space, it often ends up as a majority vote on the policy, project, or proposal stated. "Misplaced Pages is not a democracy" , and having VFD as a backdoor like this is probably not a very good idea. I suggest moving this discussion (copying it to the page) to the relevant talk page for the wikiproject itself. Would that be ok? Kim Bruning 14:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Personally, I feel that this would not be okay. As you can see, there is a lot of controversy in this, and many see it as a very legitimate vote (which it is). It seems to me that the vote here is not on whether material is appropriate for children (policy is quite clear on that), but rather the intent of the Project, as it should be. I oppose closing the VfD before it is complete. -- CABHAN TALK CONTRIBS 14:59:24, 2005-08-17 (UTC)

• So you agree that this is indeed a (majority?) vote on policy being conducted on vfd? Hmm, see also here Kim Bruning 15:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• How can a majority of 4 people? be enough to overide a majority of delete votes, numbering in the dozens?? obviously, all the poeple who voted delete thought they could vote, same for the people who voted keep, pulling the plug now simply says, too bad, keep wins on a technicality--172.130.8.51 15:10, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

No, don't close this. The chance has passed now. If you want to make it clear Misplaced Pages: nominations shouldn't be allowed on grounds of degenerating into majority votes on policy (which is fine by itself) have that written up as an explicit guideline so we can refer to it. Technically closing it would be fine since it's quite obvious this is not getting any form of consensus that could matter, but you're setting yourself up for accusations of pushing through your opinion on something (in this case, the nonviability of VfD for policy discussions). Best avoid that by either giving this its five days, or convincing Jimbo to do it for you. Anything short of that is going to be unproductive. Well, even more unproductive, I mean. JRM · Talk 15:07, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I really don't think VFD should be where we decide policy, so I certainly wouldn't object to this VFD being closed. I hate this particular project and it's aims but I respect it's right for the community to shoot the idea down, on the project page. -- Joolz 15:19, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I think I've changed my mind now, this page appears to be a subtle attack page and certainly not working towards NPOV positions. -- Joolz 23:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• I think that there is a difference between the examples cited by the people on the VfD talk page and this VfD. Which is, we are not here deleting or attempting to change a Misplaced Pages policy. If WP:VfD or WP:POINT was up for deletion, of course the nomination would be removed. I suppose this VfD is about policy (suitable for children), but the debate here seems more about enforcement of a policy than changing a policy. I dunno, I just feel that closing it now is going to be counterproductive. -- CABHAN TALK CONTRIBS 15:59:02, 2005-08-17 (UTC)

  I'd suggest that this isn't a VfD about a policy. It's a VfD about the use of a Misplaced Pages collaboration mechanism (namely, a WikiProject) for a purpose diametrically opposed to a Misplaced Pages core policy It's like "WikiProject Imposing An Anti-Sex POV". Should we next allow "WikiProject Inserting Systemic Bias" and "WikiProject NPOV-is-Satan"? --FOo 19:19, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Object. The consensus is that that this is a legit VfD and it should be allowed to run its course. I can't see where you have consensus for speedy keey. Pilatus 15:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Object - I do not feel the admins have the right to suppress discussion which is clearly ongoing and has a point to it, and I feel that closing this VfD could well be construed as suppressing discussion. Rob Church 16:20, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Object. Nominator has broken no rule, so this can't count as a speedy keep. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 18:26, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Object WLD 20:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I suspect the deletions are mainly due to the title containing a personal attack. Violetriga also refers to WP:POINT. ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 15:02, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

While I have seen some people voting keep because of it's spot in the Misplaced Pages space, I remember that a Wikiproject dealing with either some type of Jewish bias (not sure which one) was deleted via thia process. Plus, in my own defense, this and voting keep for the autofellatio image is the only thing I have done in this recent debate over Decency vs Censorship. I have not deleted pages or anything to that relating to this at all. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 16:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

As of now, the votes stand at Keep 28 votes. Delete 38 votes. I think that is about right, I may have missed a vote. Banes 15:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I counted 49 votes. -- A Link to the Past 20:08, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Well, as it stands, this vfd probably violates about half a dozen policies and principles by now. :-/ But I'll leave it stand to keep the peace (for some strange definition of peace involving me not getting lynched :-P). In the mean time, please compare this VFD with the surrounding VFDs, in terms of length, formatting and civility. Does it look like the kind of discussion normally held on VFD? Kim Bruning 09:58, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Point of Interest 5

I have been looking around and reading and I beleive our group has been infiltrated by outsiders who have attempted to show crazy views in order to discredit us, strawmen arguments. Look at User:Brodo on it he says that MONGO who is here with WfD is just a "neofascist sockpuppet". I would like it to be noted that the moral relativists AKA those for deleting this on this page are resorting to such nasty and uncouth tactics to win their arguments, this is notlike Misplaced Pages! -DavidsCrusader 19:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• perhaps you want to make it more exclusive, maybe you can set up a second council to determine if someone is moral enough to be a part of your group, that should make it look less like you're trying to force a very narrow viewpoint on other people--205.188.116.12 19:43, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

People going against the 'Don't be a dick' aspect of the Misplaced Pages:Policy_trifecta shouldn't undermine the reasoned arguments on either side of the issue, nor be used to support the reasoned arguments, again, on either side. It should be an irrelevance. KeithD (talk) 19:56, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• I'd be careful tossing around terms like "moral relativists" on Misplaced Pages. If you believe that adhering to the NPOV policy is tantamount to moral relativism I'd think about finding somewhere else to spend your time. Oh, and by the way, I think if you knew me you'd probably be pretty quick to accuse me of being a "moral relativist" (ie - someone who doesn't see it necessary to oppose his viewpoints on others). And yet, I'm one of the strongest supporters of keeping the WfD project and not deleting it (yet). I'd hazard that it's exactly the kind of attitude you're presenting here that makes most users hesitant to support WfD. In other words, please tone it down a notch. - Haunti 20:02, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
• I am about 99% sure that the statement on User:Brodo is a joke. My guess is that both of them edited the George W. Bush article, and that Brodo was accused of using MONGO as a sockpuppet. That said (I speak only for myself here, but I'm sure it applies to others), I don't care who's doing the standard-creation. I oppose it anyway. -- CABHAN TALK CONTRIBS 20:03:05, 2005-08-17 (UTC)
  • The user page you cite is a troll that uses sockpuppet accounts. He posted my picture on his page for no reason other than harassment. I use and log in only as MONGO. I never Rfc that user page because he can just get another IP and I don't play games here.--MONGO 00:54, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

List of talk pages tagged by this project

A number of articles have been tagged as being "part of" this project, including several which would appear to have no reasonable "decency" issues. The tagging of religious articles is, I think, of particular concern. ‣ᓛᖁ♀ᑐ 22:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Explanation for the confused: a number of these, e.g. the religious pages were indeed tagged by User:Agriculture who is (afaik) the original creator of Wikipedians for Decency. A number of the other pages where such a posting would have a shock effect were tagged by an anonymous user who mimicked the style but signed as "Godfearing Parent". A number of pages were also put in a category "Indecent" by the same user.

I hope this helps explain what's going on. I also posted an explanation on top of Wikipedians for Decency in case anyone ends up there.

My two cents: Agriculture probably didn't help his cause by soliciting help in such a way. People primarily motivated by religion is not what I would want in this wikiproject, at least - just people concerned about some kind of minimalistic "editorial taste and judgment" as Jimbo puts it. On the other hand the anonymous vandal really didn't help his case, that's a pretty disruptive tactic, and there is every indication that it has confused a number of people as to whether he really was (or was acting on behalf of) the Wikipedians for Decency. That's a really lame way to troll for votes. Surely if he had a reasonable argument he would have posted that instead? ObsidianOrder 02:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Talk:Anastasia Christ
• Talk:Anglicanism
• Talk:Anna Malle
• Talk:Aurora Snow
• Talk:Autofellatio
• Talk:Baptist
• Talk:Bible
• Talk:Bisexuality
• Talk:Christian theology
• Talk:Christian
• Talk:Devinn Lane
• George W. Bush
• Talk:Hip hop
• Talk:Homosexuality
• Talk:Islam
• Talk:Jew
• Talk:Lutheranism
• Talk:Methodism
• Talk:Mormon
• Talk:Pandora Peaks
• Talk:Pornography
• Talk:Presbyterianism
• Talk:Protestantism
• Talk:Religious Society of Friends
• Talk:Restoration Movement
• Talk:Roman Catholic Church
• Talk:SaRenna Lee
• Talk:Sex
• Talk:Timea Vagvoelgyi
• Talk:Wicca
• Talk:Zara Whites

• I´m wondering why the article Devinn Lane is listed here ?! Anyone has a problem with the fact that her father is a fundamentalist Christian preacher  ? I think that´s the problem of Mrs.Lane - and she has solved it in her way. :-) Greetings. MutterErde 12:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Thank you for compiling this list. Everyone "delete" those tags with extreme prejudice.Gateman1997 23:00, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Actually his use of certain religious pages is probably a warped way to electioneer this VfD. He's trying to get the "moral majority" to come and support him. I think it's time this "project" got a quick shot to the head and was put down.Gateman1997 23:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• • You know what? Since you are all leaving manners by the side, I'm going to as well. Up yours, those tags on Christian sites were added well before the VfD was even proposed go check the links and see for yourself, a lot of the other tags were added by users voting to Delete here to make it look like we're trying to censor. Check the damn logs before you mouth off. Agriculture 23:53, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • Now who is being obscene?Gateman1997 00:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Me, because I'm sick and tired of being the damn Wikipunching bag. Agriculture 00:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • • • I won't speak for the rest of the Wikiverse, but if anything I've said has been taken as a personal attack on you I apologize for that. It was not my intention.Gateman1997 00:03, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
          • Go read the whole damn page above, we're getting called everything from prudes to Nazi Baby Raping Satanists. Then the same damn users who are voting to delete think it would be funny to use the article inclusion template to vandalize in order to turn EVERYONE against us. Misplaced Pages isn't a place for discussion, debate, or free speech, it's a just a bunch of kids looking to have fun at other people's expense. Agriculture 00:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Some wag put one on Talk:Evolution too. --FOo 02:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

God forbid, notifying religious people that is really underhanded. We can't trust those buggers. Bible thumpers all of them; well, except for hose Wicans, they just like good, wholesome things; damn them too. Extreme prejudice in deleting those notifications, YES!!! Keep the moral people ignorant so we can delete this terrible, wicked page that would allow people to discuss standards. GIVE ME A BREAK!!! I have never read so much crap in all my life. A man who can suck himself is educational??? Educational for who? Why is it so sacrosacnt that it can not even be discussed! You people amaze me. Everyone is free to discuss anything as long as it agrees with me. Boy, do I love liberal elites and mental midgets; they make me so proud to be human. Storm Rider 02:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Speaking of Elites, so far I have read user pages and I have identified at least FOUR users on here who are involved in the liberal arts academic world, and surprise surprise they voted to DELETE. Also someone deleted the obscenity tag off of the Chelsea Charms article WITHOUT OUR PERMISSION. -DavidsCrusader 02:54, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Just thought I'd point out that no one needs your permission to do anything on Misplaced Pages.Gateman1997 02:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Portraying this as the poor innocent religious folk against the evil liberal arts world just makes it look all the more firmly that it's POV. Try inclusionist tactics, not exclusionary tactics. And no one has to get your permission to do anything. Misplaced Pages asks editors to be bold, not ask permission from the editors that preceeded you.--Prosfilaes 03:10, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• I've got a book that lists books that were considered indecent by 16th century England. The authors tend to lose their heads or at least their ears or freedom. To bring the religous people together on the presumption that they are the moral people to pass judgement on the rest of us has been the death of many, many people, and the silence of many others. But, no, we should trust them implicitly. It's nice to see that the side that is whining the personal attacks feels so free to dish them out.--Prosfilaes 02:54, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Is the tagging of religious articles a sick joke or trolling? Because otherwise we're becoming a fundamentalist Christian controlled medium, forbidding any viewpoints that conflict with their idea of the world. That's no better than the Taliban - or actually worse, since AFAIK the Taliban never claimed to fight for freedom and democracy. Last time I checked, this whole "Wikipedians for Decency" business was to protect Misplaced Pages from violating Florida law by distributing indecent material such as pornography. If religious views conflicting with conservative Christianity are indecent or pornographic, we might just as well resurrect the Spanish Inquisition. — JIP | Talk 08:44, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Point of interest 6

These supposedly neutral people are now branching into attacking other non-Christian religions. Crazy Christians attack Wicca. Gateman1997 22:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. This is a group of users with the intention of promoting their particular viewpoint on Misplaced Pages. Not sharing it is not a valid reason to vote 'Delete'. Vacuum c 23:42, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
  • Um point of contention. Users aren't supposed to HAVE a viewpoint. Misplaced Pages is WP:NPOV. Gateman1997 23:46, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
    • User's can have opinions, but mainly NPOV said that we cannot push our viewpoints on everyone who contributes here. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:50, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Then the question would become are those tags that they're putting out there a PUSH of a POV. I consider them as such. Don't know what everyone else thinks on the topic.Gateman1997 00:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually I'll note no one from the project has been doing it, if you trace them back I think you'll find the people here who have voted delete and posted personal attacks are behind the tagging, trying to force a delete. Agriculture 23:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• If that's true it's deplorable but it still doesn't change the fact this is a POV project or that you have tagged articles yourself on Christian, Islam, and Jewish pages trying to drum up support for your cause. Gateman1997 23:55, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Since when do Christians Jews and Muslims share views on Decency? We were trying to get people involved in the discussion, not trying to force a POV. When will you people sit down and get it through your damn heads, WIKIPROJECTS DON'T HAVE EXCLUSIVE MEMBERSHIPS. The POV of the project would in the end be simply the POV of Misplaced Pages because ANYONE CAN JOIN. Now go visit my user page, there is a message there for you. Yes, I know it hurts my arguments, but I don't care anymore, you have all destroyed my faith in the NPOV of Misplaced Pages. You all have an agenda, and you push it using dirty dirty tactics. Agriculture 00:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • Conservative Christians, Jews and Muslims share many views on decency. The specific details may vary, but they share a common bias against nudity and towards adult, heterosexual relationships between married people only. And the simple fact you chased after religious people, and didn't post a link on the pornography talk page is a sign. --Prosfilaes 02:20, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Why is this a project?

I mentioned this in my vote but it somewhat got lost. I don't see why this is a Wikiproject. Accoring to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject, wikiprojects are designed to co-ordinate the efforts of several users, and to allow a group of conceptually related pages to have similar structures and appearance. This page/project is nothing to do with that. Shouldn't we be encouraging the participants to create a concensus page, or a policy for wikipedians all to vote on? Sabine's Sunbird 00:13, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

If this was changed into a policy proposal page or such maybe people might reconsider their delete votes. -- Joolz 00:43, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

This page was put up for deletion almost as soon as it started. Nevertheless, here was 1 of the 2 primary proposed "projects":

Suggest constructive ways to modify the statement of policy

Current policies:

• Misplaced Pages is not censored
• Misplaced Pages:Image_use_policy
• Misplaced Pages:Profanity
• Undefined "no nudity policy" but that does not mean it must be G-rated
  • The current undefined "no nudity policy" is more on the lines of "no pornography" policy, the difference being that nudity could be found in an art museum, pornography could not.

--Noitall 01:10, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Well, the definition of "pornography" is hardly clear, and you clearly can find things that most people would call "pornography" in modern art museums. --Fastfission 01:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales weighs in on the legal issues

I copied this from the mailing list. If there is a problem with copying text from the mailing list, please remove it. --Ryan Delaney 10:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Fastfission wrote:

>> If images which would very likely count as
>> "obscene" under that particular state law (Florida?) were able to be
>> X-ed out (that is, their presence would be visible, even though their
>> content would not be) by default, and could be "enabled" by people who
>> swore that they were not minors (or didn't live in the U.S.), wouldn't
>> that solve a few problems at once? Those who are worried about seeing
>> a nipple wouldn't by default, while those who wanted to see them could
>> easily do so, and instead of doing it under the guise of someone's
>> projected "decency", we were doing it simply to comply with U.S. law
>> (blame U.S. prudery on this all you want, but I'm betting laws of a
>> similar sort, though with different boundaries set, exist in most
>> countries).

I'm sorry but I think it bears repeating firmly and often that a nipple
showing is in absolutely no way illegal in the United States. We could
show full-blown mainstream pornography on the main page of Misplaced Pages 24
hours a day and not be in violation of any laws in the United States.

It is pretty difficult to come up with something which is legally
"obscene" by US standards in the context of Misplaced Pages. And our own
internal processes seem so far quite adequate to keep us very far from that.

One thing I like to emphasize in this context is that sound editorial
judgment is not the same thing as censorship. We don't show full-blown
mainstream pornography on the front page of wikipedia as a matter of
editorial taste and judgment, not out of concern with censorship law.

>> An
>> additional thought which occurred to me is that I'm fairly sure a
>> federal law was passed not too long ago which requires age
>> verification information for nude models to be hosted by the website
>> hosting their pictures (proof that they are at least 18 years old). If
>> that's the case, that's another unpleasant legal/technical thing to
>> think about.

I do think that this law may have some applicability, but it does *not*
apply to models who are merely nude. It applies, and I would have to
look it up again to get the exact language, to models engaging in
specific explicit activity -- I don't think we have any images of this,
but this law could be used to argue that we can't host photographs on
autofellatio unless I'm willing to keep documentation on file from
the models (and I'm not). But this does not apply to drawings, which is
what we have there now, for better or worse.

--Jimbo

(The email in question is here, and a second one on the same thread here.)

Post Jimbo Discussion

• Well that pretty much settles the legal issues then. Jimbo and Misplaced Pages have nothing to fear from the US or Florida Governments over anything except MAYBE the autofellatio image.Gateman1997 00:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • • ...and that only because of the lack of desire to keep age records on the fellow, not because of the image content specifically. --Fastfission 01:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Considering his work history, I'd be more likely to trust him on this particular legal issue than the rest of us schmucks. - Haunti 00:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Is it true he was involved with the porn industry?Gateman1997 00:58, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
      • See Bomis and Jimmy Wales. ~⌈Markaci⌋ 2005-08-18 T 01:13:49 Z
• "sound editorial judgment is not the same thing as censorship" - sound editorial judgment is exactly what the page Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Wikipedians for Decency was meant to be in the first place. As far as I know, not a single Admin or anyone with any "powers" was involved in its creation. It was meant to use the powers of persuasion that File:Autofellatio 2.jpg, which I put up for deletion, to convince others that it did not meet a proper standard for Wiki. There was no "legalities" or "enforcement" of anything we did, only "sound editorial judgment." --Noitall 01:03, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
  • Jimbo wasn't saying yea or nay to this particular project, he was commenting specifically on whether the legal issues brought up by its members were applicable. In the context of the larger discussion, he was addressing the larger issue of image filtering which has been talked about on the mailing list for some time now. --Fastfission 01:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Your interpretation is entirely wrong. He specifically stated his comment was not about the legal end. I quoted part of it, here is the entire part:

One thing I like to emphasize in this context is that sound editorial judgment is not the same thing as censorship. We don't show full-blown mainstream pornography on the front page of wikipedia as a matter of editorial taste and judgment, not out of concern with censorship law.

--Noitall 01:49, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Plus, it's like when clowns all pile into a car. Then at least you know where they all are. Hamster Sandwich 01:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Now, now. I'm not convinced everyone involved with this project had some censorship agenda in mind. Certainly some users did, but not all. Gateman1997 01:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe it is quite settled now that due to the legal ramifications present in anti-pornography laws and Misplaced Pages that this Project must be kept open. I propose than an administrator close this at once as a victory for Keep and have the nominator and the rude people who made Agriculture leave banned for 24 hours. -DavidsCrusader 01:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

What? Did you read what's posted directly above? The point was that the law protects Misplaced Pages in pretty much every current circumstance, with the possible exception of the autofellatio image. I doubt we need a whole project to stop one image from being posted. I don't want Agriculture to leave either, but your comment doesn't really make much sense. - Haunti 01:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

User:DavidsCrusader

I would like to note that looking at User:DavidsCrusader, the user appears to be a sockpuppet created by Wikipedians who disagree with WfD to discredit it's members by providing a strawman to argue against. Another example of the dirty dirty tactics used by Wikipedians. Agriculture 02:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Agriculture, Im sorry if I have hurt the movement in any way, it wasnt my intention. I am not here to "discredit" us, I was sent here by Noitall. He left a message on ] that your movement shared my beliefs and I should join, so I did, at that same time it was VfD'ed and I decided this was one American that was NOT going to take it, so I decided to fight it. I realize I was not as civil as I should be, I will try to be more civil and hopefully try later on the pornography deletion case -DavidsCrusader 03:50, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • It's not a movement TROLL, it's an attempt at discussion. Noitall never did as you claimed, now quit it or someone is gonna get really pissed. Agriculture 03:54, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
    • What do you mean he never did that?:

"# Keep The issue of deletion of a page is notability and she is notable. The picture is an appropriate version of her as a person, not in any sex act. Many of us do believe that Wiki needs standards, see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Wikipedians for Decency, but there is nothing here to cause the deletion of anything on this page. One more important point: nothing in this article or picture was done specifically to get on Wiki--she did it on her own to promote herself and her career. --Noitall 13:17, August 16, 2005 (UTC)" thats directly from the page -DavidsCrusader 04:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • • And it doesn't say a damn thing which you claimed, quite the opposite in fact. And thats it I'm stopping with the troll feeding. Anyone want to join me in a rousing round of RfC? Agriculture 04:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • • • I think Agriculture is more likely the troll. At the very least, your attitude to someone who you think might be a troll is uncalled for. Politeness to other editors is more important at Misplaced Pages then a call for decency.--Prosfilaes 04:14, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • • • Agriculture, I'll second the RfC. Actually, on second thoughts, perhaps a speedy sockpuppetban through the administrators' noticeboard? RfC would seem like too much credit for this troll. Prosfilades, you have to track DavidsCrusader's entire wiki-career to get a sense for exactly how disruptive he has been, by pretending to a point of view in order to discredit it. He got a little to exuberant at some points which gave the game away, but perhaps not to a casual observer. That he is a sockpuppet is quite clear, the only question is whose? ObsidianOrder 05:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Right. Or he could possibly just be a new Wikipedian; he did appear before this VfD started. This sounds like paranoia instead of a real, valid complain.--Prosfilaes 03:10, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• This user is a sockpuppet for Stamford spiney (talk · contribs). Looking at the VfD for Knees Up Mother Earth (the logged VfD is at Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Knees Up Mother Earth), one will note that the nomination was made by DavidsCrusader, but the user stating "I was too hasty." is Stamford spiney. I urge all voters to DISREGARD anything by this sockpuppet. -- CABHAN TALK CONTRIBS 03:11:49, 2005-08-18 (UTC)
  • Note that SS said to VFD, DC nominated, SS retracted. I think DC is an eminently suspicious user, and I feel his encylopedic standards have as much weight as the electrons they're written on, but I think you're seizing on invalid evidence there. Shimgray 03:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
    • True, could be. I do find it odd that his first edit (and in fact, 29/33 of his edits) are in regards to this Project... -- CABHAN TALK CONTRIBS 03:20:28, 2005-08-18 (UTC)

• Agriculture is right, this is a sockpuppet/troll. DavidsCrusader first appeared yesterday (02:49, 16 August 2005) about 9 hours before this VfD was posted, and immediately started a number of VfD's on articles about women with large breasts . Since then he's done nothing but hang around at this page and actively troll with comments such as "Also someone deleted the obscenity tag off of the Chelsea Charms article WITHOUT OUR PERMISSION.". LOL. Begone, troll. ObsidianOrder 03:22, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I don't think he is as Agriculture contends someone placed here to discredit his Wikiproject, but rather just a plain old troll.Gateman1997 03:32, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
    • how can you be sure, from what I've observered, people of the liberal persuasion are capable of almost anything--64.12.116.7 03:33, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Actually if anything this user seems to be of the highly conservative persuasion. But let's not have this degenerate into a political spectrum debate please.Gateman1997 03:36, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Maybe not. The timing is too precise though. ObsidianOrder 03:43, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
      • probable sock of: User:SchmuckyTheCat--MONGO 04:02, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Alright, I would just like to admit that I am in fact SchmuckyTheCat, I was put up to this by FCYTravis, A Link to the Past, and Raul654. They wanted me to be a Strawman Sockpuppet on the Big-breasted models pages, because they wished to have them kept, then when they saw this VfD go up, they sent me here. They will deny this vehemently, trust me, I know, but it was then. I guess I will leave this page now. -DavidsCrusader 04:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't get it. Is he really a sockpuppet? I figured him for a clueless newbie as someone else called him. --Noitall 04:56, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

I said probable. It is doubtful that FCYTravis, A Link to the Past and Raul654 would request the assistance of someone who is mainly editing opposite to their viewpoints here. If it is true and DavidsCrusader would like to provide proof, then arbitration will commence...trust me on that one.--MONGO 05:10, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

They werent the only ones, obviously they are controlled by others higher than them, but theyre the ones who handed me the orders to blackball WfD and to strawman the big-breast women. What proof? Their is no proof, they see to that, trust me. This isnt the first time this happens either, other users and pages have been forced off or deleted off through these tactics before and trust me its always the same people in command. Their are others out there who know what I am talking about. Agriculture is a good guy, his Project just had to be deleted because it didnt jive with the committees policies and if they could get a conservative moral absolutist like him OFF the board, the better in their eyes. Im glad the truths out now, I urge everyone to vote KEEP that voted delete, this was all a sham vote. -DavidsCrusader 07:50, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Delete the TROLL Agriculture 07:56, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

What a load of crap. Zoe 08:03, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Point of interest 7

Anon IP 172.167.11.125 (talk · contribs) and 172.173.85.232 (talk · contribs) are the same person....voted Delete twice...logged in and edit history shows no other edits except here...probable sockpuppet uses would hardly surprise me based on the rest of the adolescent behavior and commentary shown by numerous voters here.--MONGO 03:08, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Once the VFD is declared closed by the admins, they will go through and make sure that each vote is legit. Some annons and new people voted delete, some voted keep. So the final tally on both sides will be reduced, but I am not sure by how much. However, I will not close the VFD myself and it will be closed by an uninvolved admin. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

An effort to speedy keep failed and this doesn't qualify for speedy delete, so there will be a need for a calculator in another 4 days.--MONGO 03:54, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

One of these vermin seems to have vandalized my user pages a few times, do you think you could just block them all? the 172s seem like nothing but trolling, bias insertion, and vandalism, they wouldn'tbe missed--I-2-d2 04:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Some wanted to speedy keep it because it was in the Misplaced Pages name space. I talked to the person who wanted to close it early on IRC and explained to him on why I believe the vote should still continue. As time passes, while some users still attack one another, some get down to business and figures out what is going on. Once we did find out what is going on and what is going to happen next. Usually, VFD's last for five days, and it is close to approaching the end of it's first 24 hours on here. But I know the dicussion will be done longer, and we will have a link to this and other pages for future referencing. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:03, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

No kidding. Personally, I think the nomination of this Project for Vfd was hostile. I never saw one comment or the like to any of those who commenced this project. I think it is a double standard to try to censor what many people here regard as a project to censor Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is not about trying to insult people with ridiculous POV. Many claim no standards should exist...that this should be a repository for whatever they deem as encyclopedic. I have stated that standards are imposed by us all...without some level or baseline of what is encyclopedic we end up with nothing more than a bunch of off the wall images and articles of NO encyclopedic merit. Jim Wales stated that he was not interested in providing sanctuary for records proving the ages of some of the people that have allowed their obscene images to be uploaded here...there is not a porn company, adult magazine or similar interest within the confines of the U.S. that doesn't require some form of valid proof that these people are of age. The implications of attempting to formulate the preeminent web based encyclopedia are jeopardized by those that fail to understand that all freedoms come at a cost.--MONGO 04:22, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Holy crap MONGO, well said. Are you a professional speaker? Agriculture 04:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Point of interest 8

Seriously, what the hell. Lets just Speedy Delete this damn thing and get it the hell over with. Some of us want to just move on finish some stuff and then scram from this Vandalpedia for good. We all know the outcome already, it's going to either be: Delete or No consensus in which case the trolls and vandals above will just antagonize the WikiProject till it dies a horrible painful death. The only good outcome is if it just gets Speedy Deleted so none of us waste any more of our damn time on this shit. Agriculture 04:11, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

If you and the other creators and members of the project also wish to be speedy deleted, then I will go along with it. Until then, we just stay calm. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:13, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Suggestion, consider moving this to your user pages, or to Misplaced Pages:Wikipedians for Decency, regardless of the outcome of this vote. This will sidestep many of the objections given ("wikiproject sounds too official") but will be functionally exactly the same. Also pages in the user namespace are almost immune from vfd on the basis of supposed pov (as a certain recent vote demonstrated); and there are a number of very pov pages at Misplaced Pages:Wikipedians for X. Seems like a way to avoid a big headache. ObsidianOrder 05:55, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

But, from what Agriculture said on my talk page, he might leave Misplaced Pages all together. Of course, if the project is moved to another location, I have no problems with that at all, though I have no clue who will host it then. However, I do wish to point out that there was a user page put up for deletion before for promoting illegal activies and one was put up just recently that contains that user's blacklist of other users. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 06:04, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

No might's about it, I don't want this crap on my user page, I'm gone for good after a week. Agriculture 06:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Finally, some good news. Lord Bob 08:31, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

That's really uncalled for. Agriculture has tried to keep this thing sane. - Haunti 11:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Since he started this mess to begin with, that statement is at odds with reality. --Calton | Talk 12:51, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Who legislates Decency?

Maybe we should put "Ratings" and "Parental Advisory" labels all over Misplaced Pages. Then the "offensive members of society" can tag their works with advertisements as they do in every record and porn shop in America.

DELETE ChrisBradley 04:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• or, maybe we could just ban all the trolls--I-2-d2 04:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • We try to ban all of the trolls. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:54, 18 August 2005 (UTC)