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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by RetroS1mone (talk | contribs) at 23:58, 16 May 2008 (→Discussion of keep/toss). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 23:58, 16 May 2008 by RetroS1mone (talk | contribs) (→Discussion of keep/toss)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Mark Hanau

Mark Hanau (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

WP:COI, "An article about a little-known band should preferably not be written by a band member or the manager." The article about Mark Hanau is written and edited by someone saying he's Mark Hanau (see comments in user contributions) and using Mark Hanau's website, aimultimedia.com. Editor has also edited or created numerous pages w/subjects he has a close personal connection to like airconditioning, saturnalia, curved air, liquid light shows, John Vickers, and Academy of Live and Recorded Arts. WP:NOTE Article does not establish notability of subject as per guidelines "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". WP:VER, claims not verifiable, some claims conflict with published accounts. Editor/subject uses as a source in this article and in other edited articles, but artistopia.com has Misplaced Pages as source. Before I deleted it, (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=NME_Awards&oldid=209579910), subject placed an image of an invitation to an awards event and represented it as an actual award. WP:SOAPBOX, Aimulti/Hanau is engaging in self-aggrandizement I think by exaggeration, has claimed to have co-founded Paul McCartney's McCartney Productions, established a school (ARLA), won awards, and met "Berthold (sic) Brecht" with no support. WP:NOTMYSPACE, editor using Misplaced Pages to showcase himself. WP:PSTS, editor using primary sources without secondary source backup, such as a college prospectus to establish he "founded" the college 'tho secondary sources give different story. WP:OR, editor/subject scans primary documents and submits them via his company website, aimultimedia.com. WP:Living Many, like example Aimulti claims an actor is his daughter without source. RetroS1mone (talk) 04:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I did so with my daughters full permission. She is as angry about this slur as I am.Aimulti (talk) 15:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Again, please keep in mind that disclosure of personal information for any reason is in violation of Misplaced Pages's living persons policies. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 00:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

You refer to RetroS1mone as 'she'. May I ask how you knew this editor was female?Aimulti (talk) 15:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Admittedly, I don't, but the name "Simone" is female AFAIK. One could also ask why you assumed the editor was male, but the gender of your critic is irrelevant. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 00:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Lets stop pretending. I know who you are. Keeponkeepingon is your usual handle and you have hounded me for years on Yahoo Answers etc, etc. I took me I while to figure it out (must be getting old). Feel free to deny it (as I am sure you will) but we both know what this is about. Quite frankly I don't really care one way or another now that I know the nature of this action. Enjoy yourself. Aimulti (talk) 05:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not "Keeponkeepingon" and I do not have any knowledge of "Keeponkeepingon." I have never written on Yahoo Answers. You are making unsubstantiated claims. I have defended your notability and tried to help improve the sourcing in your autobiography. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 14:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I can only comment on the section of the article regarding band management and picture discs, which I find informative, well-referenced, and certainly notable enough to qualify for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. I have no knowledge of Mark Hanau's life or career outside his involvement with Curved Air and Saturnalia but feel that to delete the entire article is extreme overkill and that a less-heated debate would enable the rest of the article to be brought up to the required standard. RGCorris (talk) 19:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

RGCorris, I agree with you that Mark Hanau's contribution to picture discs may be sufficiently notable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages with appropriate documentation. I will leave it to others to decide whether Hanau should have a biography article or should, rather, have his information merged into the other relevant articles. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 00:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Motives for attack on this article

discussion moved to Talk - Corvus cornixtalk 18:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Motives are irrelevant. The discussion here is whether or not this article meets Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies. Take extraneous discussion elswhere, it has no bearing on this discussion. I am moving the off-topic arguments to the Talk page. Corvus cornixtalk 18:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

NME AWARD

Not only did I provide a reference (the NME 1971 awards issue of NME), I also provided a scan of the actual invitation. NME only invited people to the awards who had won one. It was not like a Hollywood event, just a small reception room, some press and the presentation committee. Tony Blackburn (DJ) presented the awards. I have requested a back issue (the 1971 awards issue) from NME and also asked them to confirm Mark Hanau was the winner. How much more can you reference something? Misplaced Pages only requires a reference and I provided that and more. How many Misplaced Pages entries provide such solid references? Do I need Mark Hanau's DNA on the award and carbon dating? This is getting absurd!

Aimulti (talk) 04:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Absurd claim Sasha Hanau is not Mark Hanau's daughter

Aimulti, I have deleted the personal contact information you provided. Whether you are Sasha Hanau's father, as you claim to be, or not, Misplaced Pages prohibits disclosure of personal information. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 13:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Now I am confused. Not that it is directly relevant to the question of whether this article should be deleted or not, but near the top of this page, it is stated that the information on Sasha was mentioned with the consent of aimulti's daughter. But here, it is stated specifically that Sasha is not aimulti's daughter. 69.140.152.55 (talk) 21:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Sasha is Mark Hanau's daughter. Your link does not depute that. It was making fun of the absurd assertion she is not. I will add copy of her birth cert., as soon as it arrives from England. Sasha was willing to have her phone number listed and to confirm this in person but Misplaced Pages does not allow that. Her birth cert. is the best I can do. I would hardly claim to be her father, on Misplaced Pages, if I was not.Aimulti (talk) 00:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Mark, Toddst1 and I have referred you to WP materials on what is acceptable as documentation. Please do not post anyone's birth certificate or other personal information. Your daughter (or your parents, for that matter) has nothing to do with your notability, is not mentioned as your daughter in any reliable sources, and does not belong in this article. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 00:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

ALRA

Not only did I provide a reference from Kent Library naming the 'managers' of ALRA. They use the term for directors but also an image of the school prospectus showing Mark Hanau was Chairman of the Board (by law this information must be correct (Companies Act) and false information is a criminal act). In addition, every prospectus up to 1997 and all school stationary confirm this. In addition to that the company registary is public domain and can be easily checked. http://www.companies-house.gov.uk/toolsToHelp/findCompanyInfo.shtml

In addition every single issue of the weekly newspaper, Stage and Television Today (UK) has display advertisements for ALRA naming Mark Hanau as Chairman of the Board (from 1984 to 2001)

Aimulti (talk) 09:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Brecht

Provided three solid references (Newspaper and two University archives) showing that Mark Hanau's parents both worked with Brecht in East Berlin when Mark was a child. Removed line saying Mark met him (as this cannot be referenced) but who can doubt you meet someone who is working with your parents for over two years in a closed society like post war East Berlin? Aimulti (talk) 10:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of keep/toss

  • Keep - while a bit high on puffery, certainly Mr. Hanau seems notable enough for an article. Has references to some reliable sources, some less reliable sources, and some facts need sources. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 17:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete: Super high on puffery and most of the citations don't support Hanau's involvement. I started trying to clean up the article, removing errant citations that didn't support the article on Hanau, but quickly came to the conclusion that the article would be better deleted. If he's notable (probably is), start over and with proper citations that support relevant statements with reliable sources. Toddst1 (talk) 18:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have to express concern regarding the discussion of this AFD which has turned more into the type of thing you'd expect to see on the article's talk page or at WP:RFC and some of the discussion is starting to ring WP:BLP alarm bells that have nothing to do with the article at hand. Also, COI states "preferably", it doesn't ban articles written by the subject. In fact I'm pretty sure there's a wikipolicy saying they're welcome as long as they have sources, etc etc. I can't cast an informed opinion as to the viability of this article as I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter. 23skidoo (talk) 19:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: A quick, cursory search of the databases of the Montgomery County, Md. Public Library databases shows one article mentioning a different Mark Hanau (managing director of an investment firm). A search of news.google.com revealed no results. A search of scholar.google.com revealed 6210 results; within the first 10 of these results, there is a link to a patent for a method of manufacturing audio and video discs. Finally, if the subject of the article wants to be deleted, then I'd vote for a weak "delete" (but if User:Aimulti is, in fact, Mr. Hanau, then it would appear from the debate that the opposite is true). 69.140.152.55 (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

ALRA is in LONDON, England. (Not. Montgomery County, Maryland). Simply check the public record on-line data base. I provided a link as a reference. Direct link. http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/8d44684a52dcc89a24cdbbd0d9d3c8f2/compdetails. The information costs $1. I will buy it a post a link.Aimulti (talk) 22:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete. References available to online search do not at this time appear to support claims in article. If offline references can be verified there may be a possibility of retention after rewrite to match those sources. Some direct claims, however, such as the naming of Curved Air, are directly contradicted by available sources. --Dhartung | Talk 21:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I never claimed to have named Curved Air. Francis Monkman did. I simply claimed that I added Sonja (she confirms that on her page). Aimulti (talk) 22:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep A notable person and no reason to doubt anyone's good faith. BUT 2 pieces of artwork are copyrighted by Mark Hanau, we will have to take steps to confirm that User Aimulti has the right to license them. And moreover this user should not be allowed to edit their article anymore: if necessary they should be blocked from doing so. Sorry Mark, but if you can't see that you're too personally involved, everyone else can. --Simon Speed (talk) 13:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment: It appears that this opinion was canvassed. See User_talk:Simonxag#Your_request_and.. Toddst1 (talk) 13:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Does Misplaced Pages ban contributors asking for each other's support ? RGCorris (talk) 14:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

See WP:CANVAS: "messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process and are generally considered disruptive." Aimulti engaged in a subcategory of canvassing known as "campaigning." He selectively notified at least two editors who agreed with him on other issues or whom he had assisted with other requests and asked them to give his autobiography a thumbs up. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 15:02, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Mark Hanau's involvement with Curved Air and Saturnalia and the picture discs is sufficient to confirm notability. Sensible editing of inappropriate parts of the entry - with properly-explained reasons for doing so - would deal with most of the areas complained of. RGCorris (talk) 14:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

COMMENT ON ABOVE. Your link shows no such thing. Aids Myth Exposed does not even have a member with that name. I checked. I also note Nocontroversy is yet another member who has only edited on the topic of 'AIDS' (except one small ski edit). Funny how everyone voting for delete has the same edit history. Aimulti (talk) 21:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Aimulti and Nocontroversy, please restrict your comments to discussion of this article. What Mark said under what pseudonym where is irrelevant here. Thank you, Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 22:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I note you (Keepcalmandcarryon) started the thread referenced above. QUOTE: -From: keepcalmandcarryon (Original Message) Sent: 4/26/2008 11:44 AM I'm sure y'all have noticed that, despite its claim to maintain a "neutral point of view", Misplaced Pages's articles relating to AIDS dissidence are biased (see for example the entry on Celia Farber). In honor of Rethinking AIDS day I am going to make time to do some editing and adding of needed references, and I encourage others to do the same! THIS WHOLE THING IS BEGINNING TO STINK MORE AND MORE. Aimulti (talk) 22:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

  • STRONG KEEP This article is heavily refrenced and does not meet the deletion policy of wikipedia. None of the events or facts are exagerated, and all of the topics are historic and should be kept on wikipedia. All the links and refrences checked out. It seems that the users that have put this page up for deletion have a personal vendetta with the author and should be excluded on editing this article, as they appear to be editing with an extreme bias. 75.83.214.6 (talk) 09:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment: It is believed that this WP:SPA is a sockpuppet of aimulti (talk · contribs). Please see Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Aimulti — Preceding unsigned comment added by Toddst1 (talk • contribs) 18:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

THAT IS A TOTAL LIE. Aimulti (talk) 20:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Please see talk page, "Elephant in the Room." Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 21:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

COMMENT. I did not ask this person to get involved UNLIKE the members of DAG Exposed (MSN Group) who have organized this campaign against me. Aimulti (talk) 21:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete. The relentless promotion of this article by possibly COI-affected editors makes it hard to get a clear view of the subject matter. There is a large reference list, but the criterion for inclusion there must have been set very low. A serious full-length review of Mark Hanau's work in a reliable source might persuade me to change my vote. If the article is kept, a lot of puffery will need to be removed. EdJohnston (talk) 18:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

COMMENT. If this REALLY was about references than may I ask why the Mark Hanau bio with over 30 is the target of so much attention? Compare it to the vastly longer article: - http://en.wikipedia.org/Rich_Mullins_(musician) with not a single reference. This same situation is common throughout Misplaced Pages. Seems like a double standard or could the motive be as I have claimed? Aimulti (talk) 03:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

  • KEEP. The REAL objection is a fanatical vendetta by members of a special interest group. Every article I have contributed has been targeted. A good example is Peace News. This article was totally original in content (even the paper's web site had no history). Well referenced and had no 'self promotion' as these people claim whenever they can. It was targeted simply because I contributed it. The same is true of several other articles. A PURE HATE CAMPAIGN - Plain and simple! Aimulti (talk) 21:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Aimulti I tried to explain you twice the copyright problem. but you are not listening. At Peace News you copied directly from the Brock archives . Thats not "totally original in content". Its plagiarism. So much it puts all your stuff in doubt. Every edit I made is from copyright or plagiarism or POV. RetroS1mone (talk) 23:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  1. http://groups.msn.com/aidsmythexposed/activism.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=34105&LastModified=4675672689297989029
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