Misplaced Pages

Talk:Grand Theft Auto IV

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by X201 (talk | contribs) at 13:18, 28 May 2008 (→Release date). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 13:18, 28 May 2008 by X201 (talk | contribs) (→Release date)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Skip to table of contents
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Grand Theft Auto IV article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Good articlesGrand Theft Auto IV was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (May 27, 2008). There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.
WikiProject iconVideo games B‑class Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Video games, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of video games on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Video gamesWikipedia:WikiProject Video gamesTemplate:WikiProject Video gamesvideo game
BThis article has been rated as B-class on the project's quality scale.
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks:
Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks
AfDs Merge discussions Other discussions No major discussions Featured content candidates Good article nominations DYK nominations Reviews and reassessments
Articles that need...
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Grand Theft Auto IV article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16Auto-archiving period: 7 days 

Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16


This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.


GAN Review

Before going into this review, I can see that an awful lot of work has gone into shaping this article, especially in finding content. I hope this review will go some way to improving it even further and reaching Good Article status. If you have any questions on these points, or if you think I'm being unreasonable, please ask. I'm happy to help resolve any queries you may have in order to further improve this article. I would reccomend that once these issues are addressed that a peer review is held, requesting a full article copyedit, before resubmission.

So, going through each of the points in turn:

  • It is well written.
    • Infobox - why is the version important for a console game? The release date needs to be cited. Is there a reason why the Sixaxis controller isn't mentioned in input methods?
      • Reply - Its a VG Project standard for the infobox. You mention the generic type of controller and not a specific make. Gamepad covers both consoles with one word. - X201 (talk) 13:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
    • You use re-imagined, both in the lead and in Setting. It's jargon and should be either removed or explained at the point where it is first used.
      •  Done has been reworded to "redesigned rendition", is that better? kollision (talk)
    • Niko being Serbian only needs one source.
      •  Done
    • Is becoming the highest rated game on Gamerankings notable? Have any third-arty news outlets referenced it? It's better to just describe that it had positive reviews.
    • It's unusual to find Development at the start of an article - it's usually found at the bottom, just above reception.
      •  Done
    • There's mention of the engine development, but little discussion of the art direction (gritty realism), audio development and so on, but there is information on this distributed throughout the article. Gather it up and place it here.
      •  Done Added paragraph on audio development. I think there enough about art direction.
    • No need to title Overview at the start of Gameplay.
      •  Done
    • One thing that's common here is saying that it's been reworked or it's different to previous versions, but there's no description of how it works now, making the text a bit impenetrable without reading further. Since we want to be able toread the article in isolatio, it would be better to explain how concepts such as wanted levels, car physics work in GTA4, then compare it with previous versions. Also note that there is a lot of jargon used in the section, such as blindfire, free aim and locked on. These terms should either be removed from the article or defined when they are first used.
    • It may be better to merge Finale with the rest of the plot, instead of having it as a section on it's own.
    • Setting - where the comparison with San Andreas is used, it may be worth reworking this and placing it into development. Also, you mention that LC is smaller than SA twice in two sentences, which should be reworded to avoid repetition. Again, you've mentioned re-imagined here, which should be explained without the jargon.
      •  Done
    • Characters, The first sentence uses relative and relatively close to eachother and should be reworded.
      •  Done
    • community and online features - there's probably too much detail here. Cross-check it with game reviews in order to pick out the key points. A lot of this stuff should be merged into Gameplay (it's online gameplay) or Development (it's development of online features). The downloadable content should be merged with the appropriate section in Development. As an when it brings in new gameplay elemtns, these should be added to Gameplay.
      • Merging done, "too much detail" not done.
    • Merge Social Club, music downloads and Playstation Home into one section - it breaks up flow if you have a heading followed by a single paragraph of text. Again, it may be appropriate to trim the detail here.
      •  Done, Music downloads merged into Soundtrack section
    • Soundtrack - the opener sounds a bit peacocky - can these comments be cited or toned down? Again, there's no need to mention each radio station in the article, only that there are a number available, with further ones becoming accessible once the player completes certain objectives.
      •  Done
    • Marketing - include in development. Having a major heading followed by a two sentence paragraph breaks flow heavily. Also, remove the inline link to Rockstar Games - it's under External Links, which is sufficient
      •  Done
    • Special Edition - again, place under development. No need to list the content - the image (free use) does that much better.
      •  Done
    • In reception the approach needs to be overhauled. The current prose lists reviews, who wrote them, who they work for, what they thought of the game and what score they gave it. This makes it more inpenetrable to the average reader - they don't need to know this level of information. Instead, rewrite it so that common things that were liked or disliked are picked out and discussed. This approach should also be used in Sales and Impact. Your refernces will tell people the information they need about the facts you state.
    • You state that GTA was the most played title on Xbox Live for w/c 28 April. Who is Major Nelson and why is he important in this case?
      • Major Nelson is the Director of Programming for Xbox Live so he is notable. But does anyone else think this information isn't that important, like it's pretty much expected to be the most played and that months or years from now this information will become irrelevant. kollision (talk)
    • There are a lot of small paragraphs in this section - consider merging them together.
    • Technical issues doesn't warrant a major heading - merge into reception (if it's been picked up on by news sites) or Development.
    • Controversy sections are discouraged. Instead, incorporate the information into Reception.
  • It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    • Some of the gameplay sections do not cite any sources. If you're referencing the game manual, cite it. If you're using game reviews to explain gameplay concepts that the reviewer described, cite them.
    • Synopsis requires referencing - if reviewers have picked up on plot elements, cite them. If needed, cite the videogame using {{cite video game}}.
    • Every score in the scorebox should be sourced and cited.
    • The first section of Controversy, after it's merge with Reception, should be sourced.
    • Some references either have the publisher in italics or are missing a publisher, date or accessdate. Check and ensure that all the reference information is there.
    • Some references do not use the cite template and need to be updated.
    • What makes GTAIV.net a reliable source?
    • What makes Edmunds inside line (edmunds.com) a reliable source?
    • Same for pspsps.tv
      •  Done
    • Same for flickr.com photos
    • Same for kikizo.com
    • Same for thebitbag.com
    • Same for SeekingAlpha.com
      • Information cited is from a conference call transcript. Seeking Alpha is the only site on the Internet that contains free transcripts of the conference calls held by publicly-traded companies. Reliable source.
    • Same for xbox360fanboy.com
      •  Done
  • It is broad in its coverage.
    • The article covers all the key points, but goes into too much detail at times. The section on being well written covers this as well.
  • It is neutral; that is, it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.
    • There's some minor peacock terms creeping in, but these have been pointed out above.
  • It is stable; that is, it is not the subject of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
    • It is being updated and improved upon, as you'd expect from a recently released videogame.
  • It is illustrated, if possible, by images.
    • Image:Liberty City GTAIV.jpg - if possible, use {{Non-free use rationale}}
      •  Done
    • Image:GTA IV Special Edition copy.png - update the description to include a list of items in the photo. It's mroe relevant to have it here than in the article itself.
      •  Done

I'll be watching this page, as well as my talk page. Should you have any questions, please feel free to ask. Keep up the good work!Gazimoff Read 10:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


Interesting suggestions. For starters, version is relevant as they released a patch for the game (which is mentioned in the article incidently). Controversy has way too much to be merged with reception, hence why it was moved in the first place. I don't really think it can be trimmed down. I'll try to work on some of the other suggestions though. --.:Alex:. 12:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I think the article is looking much better already. I'm glad to be able to get rid of all those unecessary sections such as the "Playstation Home" and "Music Downloads" ect. The article looks much more streamlined now. .:Alex:. 12:26, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Note: This just got archived, so I've removed it from the archive back onto the main talkpage. D.M.N. (talk) 18:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Niko's Nationality

Template:Conclusion


ok,i wanna know if rockstar actually stated Niko's nationality anywhere and i want a link to there.because it says croatian in the text and right after that it offers a source site on which Niko is stated to be serbian! and on another wiki page i found a line saying he is serbian.shouldn't we end this confusion with a clean,verifiable source? --Sloba (talk) 19:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It's supposed to say Serbian, but various people keep changing it to Croatian. I guess people have strong nationalistic feelings in that part of the world or something. It's almost like the fought a war over it! Oh wait...
Heh, anyway, although the game is a little vague, a preponderance of reliable sources have stated he is Serbian, so the conversation ends there (except for the vandals). --Jaysweet (talk) 19:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I hope you're not joking about war. The Vandal Warrior (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
What war? I'm not sure what you are talking about? --Jaysweet (talk) 20:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
The Bosnian war, which Niko fought in... If you didn't know what I was talking about then it doesn't really matter. I just thought you were joking about the Bosnian war. Sorry if you weren't. The Vandal Warrior (talk) 20:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I was joking about the absurdity that the hostile feelings from the Bosnian war (and similar conflicts in the region) have spilled over into Misplaced Pages to the point where people are edit-warring over the ethnicity of a fictional character. Kind of sad, really, and all I can do when something is that sad is to laugh. (I do know of the Bosnian War, though not as "the war Niko fought in," hahahahaha... I was being sarcastic with the "what war?" comment) --Jaysweet (talk) 20:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


back on topic.

Here's an idea: changing Niko's nationality to "unstated". There is a small chance that he is from a fictional country which uses Serbian as its national language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.233.37.54 (talk) 20:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Nah. It's actually supported in game by an e-mail from his mother in Serbia and he is called as such by a character in game. While the latter may not fully support the idea, in combination with the former, it's safe to say he's Serbian, especially with the third party sources. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 20:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I just wanna add that,as I live in Serbia,I have noticed that the language Niko uses at certain points in the game (as I have seen in trailers and videos,I haven't played the game yet) is not Serbian,but is rather some kind of a combination that uses expressions from several languages from this part of the world.Though it is not mine to discuss here,I guess rockstar were trying to make an universal East-Southeast European character.But if verifyable sources say Serbian,then let it stay that way(no hardcore nationalistic feelings coming from me on this topic :) but yes,as someone said above,ppl do have very strong nationalistic feelings in this part of the world) oh,and if he is really supposed to be Serbian,then might I add that Rockstar don't know anything about Serbian names :) --Sloba (talk) 14:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, I totally agree with you that Rockstar was trying to have Niko be from some sort of an amalgamation of a number of Eastern European countries. I have seen a couple of sources (unfortunately, less reliable ones) who have said "unnamed Eastern European country" for Niko's origin.
Alas, most of the reliable sources say Serbian, so I think it's better for Misplaced Pages to reiterate what the secondary sources say, rather than try to interpret an ambiguous primary source. Thanks for the rational and well-reasoned commentary, Sloba! --Jaysweet (talk) 15:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, Kate and her family think he is acceptable for her to date. As she is a strict catholic, wouldn't this suggest that Niko is a Catholic as well and therefore probably croatian?

Niko Nationality

I was under the impression that Rockstar intended his nationality to be ambiguous. I don't see that it's Misplaced Pages's place to piece together clues. None of the citations state that it was Rockstar's intention for Niko to be Serbian, they just reference clues that could indicate this. For fictional characters, surely it's the intention of how the authors wish somebody to be represented that is the defining factor. Oblonger (talk) 18:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I think he's supposed to be an "Anywhere-Eastern European" type nationality. Analagous to the "Somewhere, Middle East" antagonists in COD4. xenocidic (talk) 18:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Disagree, similar to WP:SPOILER: Misplaced Pages is no place to include only what the producer wants people to know but to mention everything that can be verified and is important. If the authors allowed this fact to be made public, it clearly shows their intentions to keep it ambiguous are not nearly as existing as you imply. Reference says, he is Serbian and so you need to show the reference is wrong or doubt-worthy if you want to write something else. Everything else would be OR. Of course, IF you have reference, i.e. proof, that Rockstar wanted to keep it ambiguous, you can add that as well additionally to the current facts. --SoWhy 19:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
My point was that if Rockstar's intention was for his nationality to be ambiguous then his nationality is ambiguous. He is a fictional character created by them. They decide what he is. There are no facts, he’s not a real person. If they have in the game deliberately (the word deliberately is important); implied that he is serbian then that is a different story. Oblonger (talk) 19:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
To attempt to quell this unnecessary discussion, I'll say that both primary and third-party sources say he's Serbian. Case closed. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 19:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Would it be better in the article to point out that the game never specifies where Niko is from? If it does sorry, cant see it. John.n-IRL 19:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd say only if you can prove it was deliberate. --SoWhy 19:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Surely the burden of proof should be on that he is Serbian. Oblonger (talk) 19:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
We do have a source for that in the article, so it's proven imho. Now the burden lies with you if you claim it was intended to be ambiguous. --SoWhy 19:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Primary source where? xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 19:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Its not mentioned in the game, since its not backing up an opinion surely that would sufice to prove a simple fact? John.n-IRL 20:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

This reference says he's Russian: http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/news-features/news/GTA-IV-episodes-only-on-Xbox-360-11072007.htm although could it be argued to be out of date? Oblonger (talk) 20:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

All other sources that mention his nationality say Serbian. Oblonger (talk) 20:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
WHAT other sources? You need to show proof or it means nothing. Pay attention. DestradoZero 07:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DestradoTensai (talk • contribs)
See the ref in the article itself. --SoWhy 07:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I cannot express enough how ignorant it makes you look when you say that Niko is Russian. --nlitement 12:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
First remain civil. Calling someone ignorant has no place here. Secondly remember that verifiability is more important than "the truth". If there are sources for both Serbian and Russian, then we mention both. It isn't our place to decide which is correct, we simply have to follow the sources. John Hayes 12:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

← Niko is not Russian, anyone who played the game for any length of time should know that. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 12:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

In response to your question, xenocidic, from what I've heard he's referred to as Serbian by a boss in game and receives a e-mail from his mother from Serbia. Multiple reliable sources also state he is Serbian; all of these sources together support this idea. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 12:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll double check check I get home. I kept the email from momz. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 12:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Just for the record, none of the emails I've received from Niko's mom mention Serbia (and her email provider is eyefind.info). xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 13:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Check the sending info and whatnot again. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 13:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll check again, I don't think there's a "view full headers" (I would be thoroughly impressed) but her email address is an @eyefind like everyone else. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
'anyone who played the game' remember that we are writing for someone who knows nothing about the game, not gamers. I know perfectly well he is Serbian, but that's my WP:OR from playing it. Readers need to be able to source it without playing the game. My argument is that if there are enough reliable sources saying he is Russian (or any other nationalities) (the one up there is about a year old, so can probably be disregarded) then it can be mentioned. John Hayes 13:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
From what I'm seeing, the sources that thousands of editors have been citing for article inclusion haven't been added in yet. It's pretty amazing that something discussed so often and repetitively by editors hasn't been done by said editors. Some have an excuse; page protection prevents them from doing so. Others don't. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 13:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Quite, I see no source. John Hayes 14:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rIH11dCM_U has lots of links to reviews that say he's Serbian so I guess that makes the article correct as is. I guess they have interpreted this from playing the game as none of them have quotes from Rockstar. It is important to remember he's a FICTIONAL character. This means the original authors of the game decide what he is. Oblonger (talk) 19:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The MSNBC source for Serbian is included in the second paragraph of the article (where it is first mentioned that he is Serbian.) It was included at both mentions of the word Serbian in the article, but the second mention was removed some days ago. --guyzero | talk 23:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I had five sources cited at one point after each mention of the word "Serbian," but somebody thought that was excessive and removed it. I don't think it was, given all the bullshit that's been going back and forth here... --Jaysweet (talk) 13:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Yup, I remember them being hacked out. Please add all or a few of them back. thank you! --guyzero | talk 18:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Seriously Jaysweet, Niko's not real. 86.129.222.236 (talk) 00:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Seriously anonymous user, that's an unnecessary statement. Jaysweet offered a very reasonable and viable option to attempt to quell unnecesary discussion on this subject. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 04:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I concur. Would be good to see more citations. That said - none of the citations flagged up in the Youtube clip cited above, including the current citation in the article, appear to be from particularly reliable sources. They all appear to be POV amateur reviews. Unless there is reliable source which can be traced back to a quotation from Rockstar, I would recommend reverting to something like 'Former Yugoslavian'. My POV two cents - I agree with Oblonger's initial point. I doubt that Rockstar would want to open any potential can of worms by making him a specific nationality. I suspect that his nationality is kept deliberately ambiguous.--SupernautRemix (talk) 21:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The current ref (MSNBC.com) is not a reliable source? Additionally, FOUR reliable sources have been added twice (and then subsequently reverted back out) that all say Serbian. With respect, we need to agree to either accept four cites in the article or stop saying "we need more cites", please. Also, any "suspicions" that we have about Rockstar's intentions with regards to his nationality is original research. The RS's say Serbian. We just report what the RS's say. If Rockstar comes out with an official statement on his nationality, we can address all of this again. --guyzero | talk 21:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

There is an early cut-scene in which Vlad calls Niko a "fucking Serb". I'd call that pretty conclusive on the part of Rockstar and as proof. jackbergin (talk) 00:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Make sure you watch it with subtitles on. He may have called him a "serf". xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 00:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


NIKO IS CROATIAN... Born in Croatia and raised in Serbia!!! here is the link, check it out! http://kezins.com/2008/05/09/behind-the-game-niko-bellic-before-gta-iv/

not a reliable source. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Brady Games Signature Series Guide for GTA IV states that he is serbian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meaty Weenies (talk • contribs) 18:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Meaty Weenie, what page is that on? I never saw anything in there stating that. 209.78.214.253 (talk) 19:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

"Our story begins aboard the Platypus, a merchant navy vessel arriving portside in Liberty City, gateway to the “land of opportunity.” One of the crew is a Serbian national named Niko Bellic, a man haunted by war memories and running from past mistakes." - It's at the top of page 10 just before the first mission, The Cousins Bellic. I'm sure that this guide must have inside information from Rockstar, because they know so damned much about the game! Meaty♠Weenies (talk) 19:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

While I do see your point. Couldn't it be possible for Brady Games to have taken the liberty of assuming he is Serbian. My reason for still being skeptical is, Sam Houser stated that Niko's nationality is supposed to be ambiguous... as per the citation below 209.78.214.253 (talk) 19:32, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Can we cite from Wikinews? If so we should ask them to interview someone from Rockstar North and ask them... Maybe if we're lucky they might see how much of a dispute this is causing on Misplaced Pages and even release a press statement about it LOL. I do see what you mean by the way. It may just be as simplicity (people have heard of eastern europe, but not Serbia). Meaty♠Weenies (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we are allowed to cite anything, Wiki related. Agree'd, I hope someone can get their attention and make them release a statement. This is threatening to tear us apart! lol 209.78.214.253 (talk) 19:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

On top of all of this, many here are ignoring the fact that numerous characters in the game refer to Niko as a "Pollock" (derogatory for Polish people), and he doesn't refute it, whereas in other instances, he is called "Russian" and explicitly denies it. Does this mean he's Polish? Perhaps Polish and Serbian? Oi ... in fact, it's best left as "unspecified" ... I regret bothering to edit the article on this one. Zombie007 (talk) 22:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Source is incorrect

Rockstar games and the story never disclose Niko's origin. If you go on the in-game internet to the libertcitypolice.com it has both Niko and Roman of unknown origin. Source number 14 calls him serbian, but this is the writer of that source's speculation, not truth.

170.224.52.40 (talk) 14:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death. At numerous times in the game, there is character dialogue that some people feel implies Niko is Serbian. Others disagree. However, we have a preponderance of reliable sources that say he is Serbian. This prevents us from having to engage in original research, such as inferring from the in-game internet, to determine whether he is Serbian. --Jaysweet (talk) 14:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
But Misplaced Pages is not concerned with "the truth" it is concerned about verifiability, so if the source is reliable then we follow that, regardless of what the game says. John Hayes 15:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The game never reveals his actual nationality. I belive an interview with the rockstar developers on IGN stated the intention of never actually stating it. i shall try and find this to add as a citation! Also, as people are saying that he is refered in game as serb by a boss, he is also refered to as a "Uky" in an early mission (Ukranian) which also would support the notion of trying to remain ambiguous. Right, i'm off to find that citation... Metallicadam (talk) Metallicadam (talk) 1602, 19 May 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 15:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

If you can find that citation, that would be great. I would feel much better about that. --Jaysweet (talk) 15:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


NIKO IS CROATIAN... Born in Croatia and raised in Serbia!!! here is the link, check it out! http://kezins.com/2008/05/09/behind-the-game-niko-bellic-before-gta-iv/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.214.253 (talk) 20:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

A blog is not considered a reliable source. The guy asserts that he contacted Rockstar, but I see zero evidence of that whatsoever. He never says what parts of that information come from Rockstar and what was his own inference. This is just not going to cut it... --Jaysweet (talk) 20:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

oh, well... Since nobody can really confirm that Rockstar made him to be Serbian, I suggest we just change it back to 'Eastern European'... that way, nobody takes offense, even though there is nothing to take offense to. Just like we can't confirm that this blogger really talked with Rockstar, we can't confirm MSNBC did either... (at least that is the citation I remember seeing) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.214.253 (talk) 20:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Primary and third party sources say he's Serbian. Case (should be) closed. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 20:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Still not convinced on the primary sources (point me to it), but there's a preponderance of third party sources who seem to have fed off each other for the Serbian thing. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


I agree with Xenocidic... it is not a closed subject as Kazakhstan claims... Eastern European is the only thing confirmed by Primary sources... everyone else is just speculating, which is not very encyclopedic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.214.253 (talk) 20:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll kindly ask you to prevent yourself from making such statements about my username in the future; not because I think it's offensive, but because it's silly and utterly unnecessary. As I've stated before, he's referred to as Serbian in game and I think he receives an e-mail from his mother in Serbia. I haven't seen anyone disprove these pieces of information and, in conjunction with the third party sources, it's sufficiently sourced. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 21:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

While I don't doubt for a second that he receives an e-mail from his mother in Serbia, that doesn't make him Serbian! The reason I don't doubt it, is because I've been playing this game religiously, since it was released... also, they do call him a 'Serb', but they also call him a 'Ukie' for Ukranian. I apologize for being childish, ♣ Klptyzm, but is still not a closed subject. we still have no Primary citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.214.253 (talk) 21:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Quite right, they call him a "Polak" (slur for Polish) a few times too. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 21:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Primary citation isn't required. We have 4+ 3rd party reliable sources which state he is Serbian. We don't make judgement calls on whether we think those sources are correct, or Rockstar's intention, etc, we just report them. Please see WP:V. Thank you! --guyzero | talk 21:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Xenocidic, you are correct... I think the only resolution would be to just call him 'Eastern European'. regardless of what country he is from, he is 'Eastern European'.

Unfortunately in this case we probably have to concede to the many sources that are already calling him Serbian. P.S. Don't forget to sign your posts with ~~~~, and while were at it, maybe consider creating an account! ;> xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 21:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to create an account (I think I once had one), but I'm no good at this. Plus, I don't think there is much I can contribute. =( 209.78.214.253 (talk) 21:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Concerning the primary sources, it is starting to become apparent that that is now basically BS, if what you all say is true. Fair enough, then; it should remain as Eastern European. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 23:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
For probably the first time ever I'm going to disagree with you on something Klyptyzm. The third party sources say serbian, but none (listed in the article) say eastern european. If we are going to disregard those sources then he could just as well be German or even American, or even for arguments sake be from the Moon. John Hayes 13:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
This source refers to Niko as "an illegal immigrant from an unnamed Eastern European country." I think GameSpy is pretty reliable when it comes to video games. However, it seems a lot more sources are saying Serbian.
I really wish Metallicadam had come up with the interview with Rockstar where they explicitly say they were trying to leave his nation of origin ambiguous. I personally believe that is probably what Rockstar was going for. But I also believe that the article should probably say Serbian, since that's what most reliable sources seem to have inferred. --Jaysweet (talk) 16:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Then where did people first get the idea that he was Eastern European? Sources, I presume? I doubt people just made that up. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 16:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Hrm anyone got copies of EGM? Say around Jan/Feb/Mar or so. Dan Houser may have said something along the lines of "Niko is a man with no country" (cf. http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=315565&st=0). Also, as to the "Eastern European" thing, http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/869/869381p1.html. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

John Hayes, actually, 'Eastern European' is the only thing confirmed by Rockstar. American, would definitely be out of the picture. I'm at work and blocked from being able to view Rockstars website, otherwise I would include a citation 209.78.214.253 (talk) 16:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Case closed - "Eastern European" (unspecified) - from the horses mouth

Sam Houser , actually, EGM, March 2008( I believe) see page 46,

“ As executive producer of the series, he's got a lot to say about GTA4, of course--about ... its main character of unspecific Eastern European ethnicity... ”

and later , page 47


“ This immigrant from Eastern Europe, hardened from the conflicts there, has been lured to America by his cousin... ”

and finally, page 54


“ GTA3 had a main character with no name. GTA4's main character is a man with no country. Liberty City's residents label Niko with slanderous titles like "that Polack" or "that Slavic drug dealer." He just smirks or offers a noncomittal grunt. "He's from that gray part of broken-down Eastern Europe, a war-torn area," says Houser. " a guy like you and me who just did what he had to do to fend for himself. ”

.

Can we put this one to rest, and call him Eastern European? xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Good job. I would endorse replacing all instances of "Serbian" with "unspecific Eastern European ethnicity," and I would cite the EGM Sam Houser interview every time this is mentioned. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, nice work! --guyzero | talk 17:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I would point out that all this predates the release of the game and all reliable sources since the game's release label hims as Serbian. Neıl 龱 17:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you! True contributor to Misplaced Pages. I wish I knew of this before my previous preemptive edit. Haha! Zombie007 (talk) 06:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Neil, that is directly from Sam Houser, Executive Producer. Doesn't matter if it was prior to the release or not. My vote is to change it to 'Niko Bellic an Eastern European...' 209.78.214.253 (talk) 17:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

^ exactly. Fact is all those sources calling him "Serbian" just fed off eachother. Remember when everyone was calling him Russian? It starts with one person saying something and suddenly you've got all kinds of "verifiable" sources spewing bullshit. (for lack of a better term) xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 17:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Neil raises an interesting point about the chronology. One thing he said was factually incorrect, though: Most post-game 3rd party reliable sources are saying he is Serbian, but not all. At least a couple are saying Eastern European.

Despite the chronology concerns, I am still more inclined to give the Sam Houser interview precedence over the inference of an MSNBC video game reviewer. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

As would I. I don't really care too much about this one way or the other, I've done my best to try and resolve the Serbian vs Crotian edit conflicts, and I'm going back away slowly now. =) xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 17:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I know this is settled but just so you know Roman says "My Serbian is not so good" during the first cut scene when Niko talks to him.padddy5 (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Padddy, he does say that, but, just because someone speaks English, doesn't mean they are from England. =) 209.78.214.253 (talk) 18:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

There are actually a number of references in the game that are suggestive that Niko is Serbian, but for each one we have at least one editor who disagrees on the interpretation. That's why we can't rely on the game; there is no point in the game where the main character comes forward, puts his hand on a Bible, and says, "I, Niko Bellic, do hereby assert that I am totally Serbian, and not of any other ancestry." Anything short of that is too open to interpretation.
I hope we can put it to rest now that we have a reference with the game's executive producer stating his intentions as to Niko's nationality. --Jaysweet (talk) 18:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Jaysweet, agree'd! love the Niko Bellic 'testimony', lol. someone had also posted, "it's not like Niko and Roman said, 'dude, we are totally Serbian'" LOL... I know this isn't a forum, just thought it was awesome. 209.78.214.253 (talk) 18:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Not to poke the skunk or anything, but here is a NYTimes article from today interviewing the voice of Niko Bellic where it is stated that the character is Serbian: . Have fun! --guyzero | talk 20:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

What's that smell??? I know I said I was going to back away slowly, but for the record, it's the reporter who says that he's Serbian (see my above comment about the proliferation of the b.s. and whatnot), not Hollick. Thanks for the link though, I'm going to read through it now. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Yup, agreed! The reporter states it -- the word Serbian does not show up inside any quote directly from the Hollick. Just to make sure, does the "Eastern European" language show up inside a quote from Houser? I hope it does so we maybe put all of this to rest. --guyzero | talk 20:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Yep - see above - the quote within the cquote template "He's from that gray part of broken-down Eastern Europe, a war-torn area," says Houser. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

First off, it's not just generic "Eastern Europe" he's from. It's undoubtable he's from the Balkans because he's not Russian but fought in the Bosnian War. Second, "Nico Bellic" is a Serbian name similiar to how "Patrick O'Brian" is very much an Irish name. We know he's not East Slav (Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian, etc), he's not a West Slav like a Pole or a Czech. He's definitely a Slav of some sort from the Balkans-either Croat, Bosniak, or Serb. Everything indicates Serb-name, the experiences he describes, his apparent ethnic prejudices, etc. -Decepticon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decepticon (talk • contribs) 21:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Decepticon, no doubt he is from the Balkans, he actually states it himself in the game. But we can't confirm what part of the Balkans he is from. We can only prove what we can cite, which is, Niko Bellic is from "that gray part of broken-down Eastern Europe, a war-torn area," as per Sam Houser, Executive Producer. 209.78.214.253 (talk) 22:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

I would endorse narrowing it to the Balkans from Eastern European. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 22:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Xenocidic, we could do that, but at some point, someone is going to want a citation... 209.78.214.253 (talk) 22:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

"Second, "Nico Bellic" is a Serbian name similiar to how "Patrick O'Brian" is very much an Irish name."

I'm sorry but you have it mistaken. While Niko Bellic may seem like a "Serbian" or "Croatian" or even a "Bosnian" name... you cannot put it down to one. There are two reasons. One, "Bellic" is spelt in a way that no last name in Serbia, Bosnia, or Croatia is. The double "L" is not common AT ALL. Second of all, "Bellic" is pronounced "BelliK" not "Bellich" as the last names in Bosnia, Serbia, or Croatia are pronounced as. So you can't really take "Bellic" and use it to pin-point it to ONE ethnicity, considering it really doesn't match any at all. Face it guys... Rockstar did this for one obvious reason, to hide his ethnicity all together. Just like they did with Claude. They want a "Mysterious" character. Please stick to fact & quit beating a dead horse. Anyway I just felt like providing this insight for anyone who doesn't know.

Sam Houser has spoken. Move on. Jas315 (talk) 06:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

stop changing Niko's nationality!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, what is this childish game of changing his nationality over and over!!!? He is Serbian and just someone LOCK THAT so it can't be changed.

Go here :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBeLhkKqZPg

You have MORE THEN ENOUGH sources, even a picture from the game and at the end, Michael Hollick (!!!THE GUY THAT WORK FOR ROCKSTARS DOING NIKO'S VOICE!!!) talks on the radio and says Serbian, then you hear: "Thats how he talks, he is From Serbia"


Stop changing it people! And no, I am not from Serbia if some of you think thats why I want it changed! I am Canadian! So people we know some of you had wars in the Balkans but damn, stop being so stubburn and leave Niko's nationality to SERBIAN!!!

Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 20:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Please refer to the compromise that has already been reached above. According to Sam Houser, Niko's nationality is intentionally grey. As for the fact that Roman says, "...It's better than my Serbian." 1) Speaking Serbian does not necessary make one Serbian. 2) It could have been a figure of speech ("my wiki-code is better than my Greek" does not mean I am Greek). xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 20:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
"Nikoi's nationality is intentionally grey." You mean he's one of these guys?! Heh, that could be especially dangerous with a self-proclaimed Xenocidal maniac running around the wiki! ;p --Jaysweet (talk) 20:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Xenocidic, I am with you, the compromise was reached. We read it from the horses mouth, Niko is an Eastern European of Balkan descent from an undisclosed country. Unless Rockstar issues a press release that states otherwise, it should be left alone. 209.78.214.253 (talk) 21:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Ok, its fine with me, Eastern-European, but I would like to see where is that he says that. All I see is he says that here and there but I want to see it myself and not by copy/paste. Like what I mean is, you say We read it from the horses mouth but where do you read it? Thats it, I just want to check it out.

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3167304 --Vylen (talk) 04:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, appreciate.

I don't know why you people say "comes from the horses mought" when its the guy that wrote the article that said that.

"As executive producer of the series, he's got a lot to say about GTA4, of course - -- about its homecoming to NYC doppelganger Liberty City, its main character of unspecified Eastern European ethnicity, and even about the possible massively multiplayer future of the whole franchise. He has things to say about the previously impenetrable topic of hidden GTA: San Andreas sex minigame Hot Coffee."

He is the one that said that, there is nowhere written (well maybe but I did not found) that its Houser that said that. This was published before its released that's why the writer did not know its ethnicity thats why HE said :"unspecified Eastern European ethnicity" and NOT the Houser. If someone has another link of HIM saying it, please send it, because this so NO proof at all.

"He's from that gray part of broken-down Eastern Europe, a war-torn area," says Houser. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 12:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, so he does not say that Niko's has an unspecific Eastern European ethnicity. That does not contradict of Niko being Serbian, au contraire, it even supports it. When we put sources on Misplaced Pages, we put those that are the most valuable, here all the sources we have so far tells Niko is Serbian, NONE contradict that. The quote "He's from that gray part of broken-down Eastern Europe, a war-torn area," does not contradict it at all, its kind of neutral quote or, it might even been seen, as a supporting quote for Niko being Serbian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 14:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

There's several links that just say "Eastern European" (IGN for one). Since Serbian is included in Balkan which is included in Eastern European - to avoid edit wars - the compromise reached is to leave it as "Eastern European" or "Balkan". xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 14:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

As you said Serbian is included in Balkan which is included in Eastern European, but why not being more precise? And put Serbian? Thats what is done on wikipedia on every article, it gets more and more precise. Since there is so many sources (go to the video link I sent above) that shows Niko being Serbian, then we should put that because there is NO source contradicting it. The compromise was mostly reached since the quote "its main character of unspecific Eastern European ethnicity." was thought to be said by Houser but it is not, it was said by the writer even before the game was released. After it was released, that's the time the most information came. Houser said "Eastern European", as I said, it does not contradict the fact he is a character that is Serbian. Well, we should be more precise, as this is one of the goals of wikipedia, and put he is Serbian. If anyone finds any quote that is contradicting that, then it should be changed but not if it says "Eastern European" since it still ain't contradicting but supporting. Its like (in some way) with everyone, some sources would say Leonardo da Vinci is European and some would say he is Italian, so we go for the more precise one because the first one is included in the second on. (might not be a good example but you get the point) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 15:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Pretty much for the same reason we're calling it a fixed-wing aircraft and not an airplane or aeroplane - it's a compromise to avoid future edit wars. I'm still unconvinced he's "Serbian" and those sources aren't compelling (one person says it and suddenly everyone is saying it - we all used to think he was Russian for similar reasons). I'm still convinced by the Sam Houser quote about the "gray area in Eastern Europe". xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 15:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
And lets never talk about this ever again.... --Vylen (talk) 15:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think sorny got a point. We called him Russian before the game was released then after the release it was found out he ain't. All the sources (each one of them!) are supporting the fact Niko is Serbian, I looked at the video and the guy (Michael H.) at the end that is doing Niko's voice says he was asked to talk Serbian many times (I know it is talked in Croatia or Bosnia but they, like Croatians, says they speak Croatian and not Serbian), anyway, in the interview it is also said "he is from Serbia" and no one, neither Michael contradicted it...... The edit war is not supposed to stop us from putting he is Serbian, it should just be locked. I am Serbian and I know the hate some people have towards us (mostly Albanians and extremist Croatians and extremist Bosnians), most of the time I think they are the one that edit it because they can't accept the simple fact that a simple character from a game is Serbian. As sorny said, all the sources point to him being Serbian so it should be kept as that........ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mickey303 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

But not all the sources say he's Serbian. Please read up on edit conflicts and the proper way to address them (compromise), which is what has occured here.xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 15:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, it's fine with me then. Keep it Eastern European since that is 100% sure, but I would insist we remove "of (deliberately) unspecified Balkan ethnicity" because that is found on the source above where it was not Houser that said it, just a simple writer (like in some cases some writers say he is Serbian) therefore, if we can't put he is Serbian, this has to be removed also since it is even a badder source since found only there. So remove that please and keep it Eastern European. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 15:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. Thanks for understanding why this has been done, especially since he's already been listed at the lamest edit wars. For the record, I'm not Serbian/Croatian/European/etc. Just a Canadian trying to keep the peace =). xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm for peace too my friend and of course truth (small or big). So this should be changed 'of (deliberately) unspecified Balkan ethnicity" and only left Eastern European. Hi from Quebec ;). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Tis done sir. =) xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry didn't understood.... What did you said there? "This is done"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I meant that I made the change you suggested. (Tis done = It's done) xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how this works, if its going to change right away or later but the "of (deliberately) unspecified Eastern European ethnicity" is still there on the second paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 16:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. Someone wrote in the "deliberately unspecified" to try and head off future edit conflicts. But let's see if this version will be stable. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 16:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes that one is good. :) Thanks for the edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sorny111 (talk • contribs) 16:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it's pretty obvious that he speaks Serbian. Therefore you can safely call him Yugoslavian. Also, I never saw an edit war anywhere? It's only been this discussion page that's given the impression of a some sort of a disagreement on his nationality. --nlitement 22:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

just check the article history if you dare... --Vylen (talk) 00:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
guys, everyone take a chill pill! remember, Liberty City is (although technically not) a made up city, who's to say he doesn't come from a made-up country. look if theres nothing official, theres nothing to write - its speculation. drop it! spend your time making edits that are beneficial than arguing over this.Chocobogamer (talk) 00:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Now that's a very good point, for all we know he comes from Syldavia. ;) John Hayes 06:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

We're getting rid of Ars Technica's negative review

. He asked for five, I accidentally gave him four. It gave a bad view for thew wrong reasons...In other words, it ignorantly criticized it. For instance, they complained that GTA 4 is smaller than San Andreas, obviously san andreas is larger because it has deserts and what not...GTA 4 is prodigiously more detailed than San Andreas so no doubt it'd be smaller...They're asking for the impossible in the review, and it's not proffesional at all. It's out. Badboysbadoyswhatugonnado (talk) 20:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

You removed it because you don't agree with their review? I'm putting it back. Bill 20:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
If there were a better negative review, I'd say include that instead - but there isn't, which speaks to the popularity of the game. We need to balance the coverage, though, otherwise it's a "praise" section instead of a "reception" section. Agree with keeping the ref. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 20:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Negative opinions have been expressed about the game(such as at 1up), however few in easily citeable sources. Either provide a better reason than "it ignorantly criticized it", or leave it in. John.n-IRL 21:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
We need more negative reviews added to balance it out and to add interest. Reading about how perfect a game is can be pretty boring, and POV. JayKeaton (talk) 01:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Good luck finding them. Frankly, when a game is so universally praised, IMO having a "balanced" number of good and bad reviews would in and of itself be pov! A single negative review is probably just about ample due weight for the small number of negative reviews the game is getting.
I have no idea what Badboys' thinking was asking to have it removed, though... yeah, at least ONE negative review is a good thing. --Jaysweet (talk) 13:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I added another link to a list of criticisms for GTA IV. Also, if you read various message boards, you will find that these criticisms are being echoed by gamers, and state that it does not deserve the overwhelming scores.Richiekim (talk) 18:19, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I am trying to add a couple of points about its downsides, poor graphics on trees and the fact you can't customise your vehicles, or even choose it's colour during a respray, but someone keeps deleting it. Am I doing something wrong? It's not an expression of personal opinion, I think they're fair criticisms, but I'm not a professional reviewer... just a disappointed bloke who bought it :] Maj0r Tom (talk) 13:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Are they reliably sourced? If not, then they are personal opinions. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 13:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
The only citation I can produce is a screenshot showing some awful trees. But you can't get a more reliable source than the game itself! Just look at them. Eurgh. It's not opinion really, it's just a fact.. the trees are amazingly bad and worthy of mention. Would a screenshot do?Maj0r Tom (talk) 11:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid that is opinion. Basically you'd be saying "look at these trees, they're really bad". Some people may think they're good looking trees and could use a screenshot to say "look at these trees, they're really good". As it's based on opinion it needs a reliable source commenting on it. Bill 13:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll personally award anyone who thinks they're good with a new pair of spectacles. See what you mean though, it's not good policy, but it is true in this case. The trees are bad. Driver on the PS1 bad!Maj0r Tom (talk) 13:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages has a strict no original research rule for articles. Find a source, preferably a reliable one. Also, discussion boards are not a proper source, and are fairly unreliable. Of course, every highly reviewed game is going to arouse a fair share of skeptics, this is common. Can you provide statistical evidence that diaapointed members of message boards represent a significant public opinion on GTA IV? Until there has been a proper survey done on the subject, saying "well all my friends said", or "a lot of people complaining on message boards", is not "evidence" that the game doesn't deserve its positive views. It only proves that not everyone believes the hype, which is no surprise. In fact, average reader scores have been high too, showing more evidence that the general opinion among gamers is positive, albiet not as high an average professional reviewers. This is still not significant evidence that the game is overhyped eithier, since many other factors can effect an average reader score (the possiblility that dissapointed players are more likely to review a game, for example)--Jtd00123 (talk) 07:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

No longer highest rated game

As of May 18, 2008 GTA IV is no longer the highest rated game on Gamerankings (http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/simpleratings.asp?rankings=y). This should be changed in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.138.216.134 (talk) 15:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

 Not done - Can't be arsed :) Meaty♠Weenies (talk) 16:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 Done - Unlike my lazy friend above me, I actually bothered. It is only mentioned in the introduction though, so if you can find it elsewhere. Well, be my guest. It may need better fixing though! --Svip 17:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
LOL, I couldn't have anyway, because my account isn't older than 4 days (will be in a few hours though) :P Meaty♠Weenies (talk) 17:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Hey, check the link. GTA4 still is the highest rated game, 1 - GTA 4 (360), 2 - Ocarina in time, 3 - GTA 4 (PS3) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clarkey4boro (talk • contribs) 16:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

gps in cars

voice gps can be activated on all cars in the options menu.

69.231.156.65 (talk) 06:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)kirbyx

Have you got a source for that? Otherwise it can't be mentioned in the article, as it would be WP:OR. John Hayes 07:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the source would be the game itself :P --SkyWalker (talk) 11:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

This sort of obvious primary information does not need to be referenced. Neıl 龱 13:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
We should not source the game if at all possible as 1) it is impossible for readers without the game to verify. 2) a third party source is a sign that this is a notable feature (which I don't think this is). John Hayes 15:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Responding to point #1, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability says "It is not necessary that the source be findable instantly by any reader, merely that it be demonstrably findable (for instance, by library or archive request)." It is just like citing newspaper or magazine articles (that aren't available online), most people won't have a copy. We just have to list as much details as possible on where the information can be found. - kollision (talk) 15:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I was about to say something along those lines, but you beat me to it. On a similar note point number #1 is "incorrect" in wording - its hard, not impossible; there is a crucial difference. Now if a source was on the moon, then that'd be near-impossible --Vylen (talk) 15:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Is this a reference that could be used? Meaty♠Weenies (talk) 15:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
No. Other Wikis cannot be used as a reliable source, for obvious reasons. --Jaysweet (talk) 16:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree, but in theory a magazine or newspaper will be stored in some sort of archive (like all the books published in Britain are in the British Library). There isn't such an archive for games. Clearly Misplaced Pages does allow for games to be cited, but if there is a third party source which can be easily accessed then we should use that instead (and meets point 2). In reply to Vylen how is it possible to verify info in a game if you don't own a copy (without third party sources) I'm assuming you don't just mean borrow a copy from someone else, as even then we can't guarantee everyone knows someone who owns it? In conclusion I'm not saying we can't ever source the game, but generally there should never be any need to. John Hayes 14:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The more important issue, in my mind, is that just about all of the little factoids for which people want to use the game as a reference aren't really very encyclopedic anyway. From an encyclopedic standpoint, why do we care that the voice-enabled GPS can be turned on in all cars? The purpose of this article is to inform the reader about the game in the context of the broader world. Little details like that are only relevant for players of the game, and for that, go get a strategy guide or something. Or, heh, the IGN's GTAIV Wiki for that matter...
Sort of by definition, if a particular aspect of gameplay is relevant in the broader context, then a 3rd-party source will have mentioned it. Otherwise, how is it significant in the broader context?
That said, I'm not ruling out that someone could conceivably make a strong case for referencing the game. If the game had been very explicit about Niko's nationality, for example, I would not be opposed to referencing the game for that (unfortunately, the game only implies and hints, therefore it is too WP:OR to reference the game). But I really haven't seen any requests to reference the game for anything that is relevant in the broader context beyond just a list of Fun Facts About Grand Theft Auto!(TM) --Jaysweet (talk) 15:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. If third party sources don't cover it there is almost certainly no need for it to be in the article. John Hayes 17:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Again, the game itself is an adequate reference for plot description, gameplay mechanics, etc. Neıl 龱 17:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Vehicle Damage

In the paragraph describing possible damage to the car, is it worth mentioning that if you shoot the tires out of a car that the rubber will fly off at speeds? The bare rims then scar the road and eventually set on fire (usually) leading to the explosion of the car!

I'm new here so please accept my apologies if i've raised this the wrong way Metallicadam (talk) 15:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)Metallicadam 16:24 19 May

Probably not... There's also the fact that you need reliable sources other than "playing the game" that back up this particular behaviour of vehicular damage. --Vylen (talk) 15:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll become a university professor and will star regularly publishing "reliable sources" for things in no need of verification to make you who interpret policies in a retarded and pedantic way cum. Because you just cannot live without that, can you. --nlitement 18:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, first of all, that comment was not constructive. In addition, your scenario doesn't work anyway. Nobody is going to publish somebody else's "research paper" where the main point is to list vehicle damage animations in GTAIV. You could publish it yourself, but Misplaced Pages does not consider self-published material to be a reliable source (for obvious reasons).
In any case, please try to understand the rules before you ridicule people for enforcing them. --Jaysweet (talk) 18:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
The game itself (<ref name="gtaiv"/>) is a perfectly acceptable reference for gameplay mechanics. Neıl 龱 17:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
While I don't reject sourcing the game altogether, it is something to be avoided. Take this very example (which I don't think is relevant enough to include in the article, but let's just run with it anyway). I've played the game a good ten hours or so. I think I saw what Metallicadam refers to once, but I'm not entirely convinced. Was it that the bare rims were sparking on the road that caused the fire, or was it that the vehicle had just taken so much damage that it caught fire anyway? I'm not actually convinced either way. I'd have to specifically create that scenario a number of times, and try to make some assessment of the amount of damage the car had received. Now we are getting pretty WP:ORy.
Referencing the game's manual is fine. Referencing text or dialogue in the game is also fine. Referencing the game for gameplay mechanics is probably okay for very uncontroversial and obvious things, although it should be avoided if possible because of the ambiguity of interpretation I mentioned. Referencing the game for controversial things that aren't explicitly stated in text of dialogue is not practical. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

what happens when Niko dies?

Thanks for the very informative article. (I don't play video games, but I'm curious.) A few things that could be clarified:

  • does Niko die if his health level reaches zero?
  • what happens when Niko dies?
  • does he wake up in the nearest hospital?
  • or is that the end of the game?
  • or does the player backtrack to a point where Niko was still in good health?
  • is there the option to backtrack?

I guess a lot of this would go without saying for someone who plays, but not everyone reading wp does.--24.85.68.231 (talk) 09:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

As with every GTA game, death results in failing the current mission and being sent to the hospital afaik. You are right, that's not clear from the article but that's just an in-game detail and there is thus imho no necessity to include it into the article. --SoWhy 11:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
The following is already written in the article: "When Niko's health level reaches zero, he respawns at the nearest hospital, but loses 10% of his total wealth (up to a maximum of $10,000). Unlike previous GTA games, Niko is able to retain his weapons after re-spawning at a hospital; they are still confiscated if he is arrested and brought to the police station" --Vylen (talk) 11:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

first game where you can kill animals?

Is this the first game where you can kill animals? (the flying rats) 202.156.66.110 (talk) 15:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

You were able to shoot birds in flight in previous games, but it's the first game where killing pigeons was a game mechanic. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 15:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

How do we know what war he's been in?

Ok, so we've finally decided that Niko is of an "unspecified balkan nationality", but how kan we be so sure it was the Bosnian War he was in? Couldn't it have been the Kosovo War? In one mission when Niko talks about it, it its said that it was ten yers ago; 1998. The Bosnian lasted was between 1992 and '95. The Kosovo War was however between '96 and '99. --DaGrob (talk) 21:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

We "kan't". This game is purely meant to be fictional, all events (including ones that never happened in that era) that were real can be obviously false. Remember Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas? The San Andreas fault was an event that happened over 90 years before that era. In the game, it also shows the aftermath of the earthquake (highway torn in half). Therefore, although the names can be real, the event itself can be entirely different. I suggest that you play the game, enjoy it, and remember that it's just a game. This way, no one can be killed because of some 13 year old kid played Grand Theft Auto and shot his mother because he thought it was "GANGSTUH!!!!". Ellomate (talk) 02:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

These are my opinions.

First of all, I'm pretty sure Niko says he has been “Searching for someone, for the last 10 years”… He never actually says the war “happened” or “ended” 10 years ago per-say. If, for example, the war WAS ten years ago in the game’s storyline… how can he “grow up” in a war-torn country if by 1996, the time of the Kosovo conflict, he was an adult?... considering the game’s “Love Meet” Profile on Niko says he is 30 in 2008. In 1991-1992 he was 13-14. He was “Very, very young & very, very stupid” as Niko explains. By 1994, when the conflict in Bosnia was most heavy, he was 16. Still, very young & delusional. He was still “maturing” whilst in the country. I also believe the Bosnian War created a much more serious & longer lasting catastrophe… the war in Kosovo wasn’t as brutal, as Niko makes his war out to be. More people have died in the Bosnian War, calculating over 50,000 soldiers & 38,000 civilians killed from all sides. The Kosovo War calculates 8,000… with 1,000 of those being Yugoslav civilians. The Bosnian War was also less supervised, whereas NATO was much more prepared & tried very hard to end the conflict in Kosovo.

Therefore, in my opinion, seeing as the Bosnian War was very much larger & longer lasting in affects… as well as much more relative to his childhood life… it reserves a place in Niko’s story. Of course, I still believe the “10 year term” refers to his time of “Searching for someone”… rather than “when” the war happened, or ended.

Although, even if we were to go with the “Kosovo War” logic… the war in Kosovo did not finish until late 1999… & yet 10 years ago, it would have been the start of 1998. This logic is still not ‘chronologically’ correct as which you seek. Jas315 (talk) 15:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Article written in British English

My question is, why? While Rockstar is based in NY, USA.... the studio that developed GTA is located in Scotland, neither place is in Britain. 209.78.214.253 (talk) 22:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Last time I checked, Scotland was in the United Kingdom. Many thanks, Gazimoff Read 22:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Shoudn't it be written in Scottish English then? "Ach! Niko Bellic nee be a Serbian, but rather be a Scottish lad, I say! And dare I nee mention the things you can do with the bonny lassies of the night..." Um, nevermind. --Jaysweet (talk) 22:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
That's a bonnie wee kalashnikov you got there, laddie. Trade ya an irn-bru fer it, alrite? Gazimoff Read 22:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

can someone go back and retype this in Scottish English, then? you bunch of wee lads! lol, but seriously, why British English? 209.78.214.253 (talk) 22:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Because of, once again, a large altercation over it in the form of an edit war. Goes right along with the "aeroplane" BS. ♣ Klptyzm ♣ 22:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Actual answer - this sort of dispute comes up over and over and over and over and over. And over. Which is why we have a guideline - see Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English. As an argument could be made based on the origins of the game for both American English (Rockstar is based in New York) or British (the studio is based in Britan) English, the rule of thumb is "stick with whichever one the article was first written in". So, British English. If you do not know Scotland is in Britain, you are unofficially not allowed to edit, ever. (well, okay, you can still edit, but don't make that mistake again! Neıl 龱 22:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

To make a complete clarification of this. The software GTA IV runs on is written in British English. Now I don't happen to have a piece of the source code, but I do have access to certain plain text modifiers (such as handling.dat, which contains all the vehicles in the game and their handling, not their 3D design, mind you). In this specific file (i.e. handling.dat), all the comments are in British English. I see centreofmass, I see metres, I see tyres, and so on. However, as Neil pointed out, the original creator used British English, so keep it that way. --Svip 23:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Case closed... just an unrelated question, since Neil is an expert. Does Great Britain = United Kingdom? if so, why do they have separate articles? I really don't know, I am truly curious. 209.78.214.253 (talk) 23:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Great Britain refers to the island (which part of the United Kingdom), United Kingdom is a country, which also includes Northern Ireland, but that is not part of Great Britain! :O --Svip 23:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Svip 209.78.214.253 (talk) 23:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Juniormafia

Easiest way to remember it - Great Britain is an island (the largest of the British Isles). The United Kingdom is a country (full name - the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). Neıl 龱 23:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Console Resolution

the Playstation 3 output resolution is actually 720p, 1080i or 1080p. Not the shown output resolution of 640p. this is shown in the list of available resolutions on the rear cover of the American version of the game —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beefy comrad (talk • contribs) 09:35, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference between output resolution and native resolution. I can make a movie that's 320x180 and play it on the PS3 and make the output resolution 1080p... Long story short, the native resolution of GTA4 on the PS3 is 640p. Cheers --Vylen (talk) 09:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
The problem I have with this is that the citation is quoting an article which is quoting a topic on a forum. Why is that being accepted as reliable? -- 12:30, 24 May 2008 (GMT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.107.69.128 (talk)
It's a PC World news entry, I think that's reliable. It's not only quoting a forum article but says "several outlets have confirmed the PS3 version runs at 640p". That should be enough imho. --SoWhy 12:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
"several outlets have confirmed-" Outlets of what? Who are these outlets? Where are the sources to these outlets confirming this? -- 14:42, 28 May 2008 (GMT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.91.120.246 (talk)
Satisfies WP:V and WP:RS. xenocidic ( talk ¿ review ) 14:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Commercial Song

What is the song in the commercials?Poketape 21:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a forum, try somewhere else. --Svip 21:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

He will not be the last, mabey it could be metioned somewhere......(121.217.56.178 (talk) 09:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC))

Why be so rude, Svippong? It's "Pruit Igoe" by Philip Glass. Neıl 龱 10:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean the peeow-peeow song? Boomchekuw boomche-PEEOW-PEEOW-boomcheekuw boomche-PEEOW-PEEOW. That's "Get Innocuous" by LCD Soundsystem. --nlitement 15:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Release date

 Done
Do we really need the '29 days ago' added in there? Tool2Die4 (talk) 13:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

No we don't. I've removed it. - X201 (talk) 13:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Categories: