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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Misplaced Pages. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.

This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.

Please make your request in the appropriate section:

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Current requests

Wheelwar regarding User:Giano II

Initiated by SirFozzie (talk) at 23:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request`
Giano
Geogre
William M. Connolley
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

There is no prior attempt at dispute resolution, because the wheelwarring of blocks/administrator action means this requires more immediate action.

Statement by SirFozzie

Timeline

Recently, Giano II (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked by William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) for three hours for a violation of his civility parole (placed on him from the IRC Arbitration case). was the comment by Giano that led to the block.

notification of block by William M. Connolley

Giano did not respond well to the notice that he was blocked, and amongst the edits he made after this block, was this comment, , which William M. Connolley then extended his own block from 3 hours to 24 hours.

At this point, Giano told William exactly what he thought of him , at which point, William extended the block to 48 hours. .

To try to give some cool down time, MZMcBride (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) full protected Giano's talk page. .

At this point, Geogre (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) came in and made things exponentially worse. Without consensus, discussion, or even a notification, he undid the page protection with an incindary attack and unblocked Giano (claiming to change the duration in his unblock message, but saying "Block overturned" on Giano's talk page)

Geogre's announcing that he overturned the block.

16:06, 1 July 2008 Geogre (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked "Giano II (Talk | contribs)" ‎ (unblock to change duration)

Another user changed the duration to 1 hour (since two of the three hours had expired on the original block)

At 16:21, William M Connoley then reblocked Giano for the original 48 hours (turning it into a 50 hour block, and announced he had done so on Giano's talk page

What needs to happen

At this point, I am calling for both Geogre (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) and William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) to either resign their status as administrators, or to have their administrator status removed by the Arbitration Committee for gross misjudgements and abuse of their administrative tools.

William M. Connolley repeatedly blocked Giano for incivility, which is an option, but the way he did it was HIGHLY aggressive. (Block someone, wait for them to reply incivilly as you know they will, and then announce that the block has been extended). The last block, for incivility, was particularly egregious, as the rules are that you never block for incivility aimed at yourself.

To make things worse, William M. Connolley wheel-warred the block back in after having it removed, without discussion or consensus. No matter how egregious the behavior of Geogre (which I will get to shortly), you do NOT get full rights to wheel-war because someone undid your actions.

Geogre came into a situation that was already bad, thanks to the vicious circle established by the three blocks in less then an hour's time by William M Connolley, and made things worse. While the progressive blocks by Connolley were bad, they were not so egregious that a unilateral unblock should be made by ANYONE without discussion at all, ESPECIALLY by someone who is generally known to be friends with Giano. This is the 2nd time that Geogre has unilaterally undone a block on Giano.

From Giano's block log:

09:40, 16 June 2007 Thebainer (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "Giano II (Talk | contribs)" (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours ‎ (incivility, despite exhortations to avoid being uncivil)

09:53, 16 June 2007 Geogre (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked "Giano II (Talk | contribs)" ‎ (No "exhortations" anywhere and not "incivil" comment, either)

Also, to undo the protection of the page in this case by a neutral administrator who was trying to lessen, or at least postpone the inevitable drama to try to let cooler heads prevail was a spectacularly unhelpful move.

I call on the Arbitration Committee to immediately remove the adminstrator status of Geogre (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) and William M. Connolley (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), or at least open a case involving these two administrators, and suspend their administrator status until such time as the case is resolved. SirFozzie (talk) 23:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply to statements

I can understand why folks want the ArbCom to focus on current issues instead of this, which is why I hesitated to file this. But there is a bright line here, almost biblical "Thou shalt not wheel-war". The only reason Giano is a party, is because he is the fulcrum that this whole issue revolves around (his blocks and unblocks, protection/unprotection of his page, etcetera). Ok, let's make things clear. Giano has been incivil. But I am not placing him as an involved party because I think he deserves further sanctions/restrictions (I don't). I am listing him as an involved party, because, yes, he was an involved party in this whole thing. He was the planet that the moons (WMC, Geogre) revolved around. The first (short) block had consensus on WP:AE, the escalation/wheel-war blocks were not discussed to the best of my knowledge, except on Giano's page.

I also note that just because ArbCom is going through a period of upheaval, that does not mean that various misbehaviors, such as the ones detailed in this statement should be allowed to stand. SirFozzie (talk) 00:05, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Note by GRBerry

There was a brief discussion of the initial 3 hour block at WP:AE. Here is the closing multi-diff (all 3 edits by Avraham). I don't know if any of the involved parties had seen that. The quick review there was that 3 hours seemed oddly short, but nobody felt that it was worth doing anything different. This closed before the reblock. GRBerry 23:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Having now read Giano's talk page and the ANI discussion, it is clear that Giano had seen it, and WMC should have. It isn't clear if George would have seen it. If this case is accepted, I strongly encourage the ArbComm to eliminate the restriction imposed on Giano in the IRC case; it has repeatedly proven counter-productive. The 3 hour block was a bad idea, but explicitly encouraged by that restriction. The 24 and 48 hour expansions were even worse ideas, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Tango#MeatBall:DefendEachOther for the relevant principle, passed just a month and a half ago. George was mistaken in his actions, and WMC was even more mistaken in wheel warring. However, unless the committee is prepared to admit its mistake in that IRC case and reverse it, this isn't worth a case. GRBerry 00:14, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by brenneman

Aww, FFS. Here are two admins I respect, acting like total idiots. What are we to do? Deadmin-ing is incredible overkill. Let's balance out the effect on the encycopledia of this event (microscopic) with the net good that these two having sysop rights provides (considerable). Serious trout slapping all around will be enough, methinks.

  • Geogre - Don't unlbock Mr. G. Even if he should have been unblocked, you shouldn't have done it.
  • WMC - What were you thinking? The first block I can support, but the others were out of line. What's the real harm of someone firing off on thier talk page, anyway?

Everyone go back to what they were doing, and lets avoid another round of enabling drahma.
brenneman 23:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment on the request for arbitration itself
There may be cultural bias here, as I see "Utter horse flop: we don't DO that. Don't watch shows that you don't like." to be something less than incindary . - brenneman 23:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
General comment on the role of ArbCom
I'm dismayed to see that there has already been an "accept" vote for this non-event. If ArbCom wants to remain at all viable, they need to start choosing their "battles" more wisely. Nothing happened here that had any impact on the functioning of the encyclopedia (strangely like the last two Giano cases, in fact.) So, with the greatest possible respect to those who opened the case and any arb who's inclined to accept, please consider: Is this worth your time? Is it worth ours? Please stop futzing around with this kind of pettifoggery. - brenneman 23:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Hello, Earth to ArbCom! Are you reading the comments here? Do you have nothing better to do with your time? How about you get off your collective arse and finish Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/C68-FM-SV/Proposed_decision before taking on this pointless noise-fest? - brenneman 00:37, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
And while I'm sinking the boot in, how's the progress on Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/IRC#IRC going? Can we at least get you to do somehting productive there before we rinse-repeat? - brenneman 00:52, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Lar

I turned up here to support opening a case, but you know what? Brenny's right. How about Geogre and WMC take this as a very serious warning to not do this any more and we move on. Send them to their rooms, no milk and cookies. urge rejection... This time. ++Lar: t/c 23:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Carcharoth

The other possibility is that all parties concerned can acknowledge that mistakes were made, apologise to each other, and just move on from this storm in a tea cup. However, if the arbitration committee do accept this case, I have to agree with what Sir Fozzie has said here. It does look bad for both William and Geogre. I would suggest that User:Giano II is removed as a party to the case. This case should not morph into another Giano case. The matter of Giano's incivility and his block has been dealt with. One more point - I would ask that any non-arbitrators on the arbitration mailing list who are closely involved or sympathetic towards any of the parties, should recuse themselves from discussions on the list. Carcharoth (talk) 23:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by R. Baley

Not sure what all the hubbub is about. William made a block, Geogre (once again) used his admin bit inapproprately with respect to Giano stuff (I'm sure you guys remember the case. . .something about IRC wasn't it?). William simply restored the block to its original state. Unblocking without discussion with the blocking admin (or consensus) is not on (reminds me of another unblocking. . . apparently we're not supposed to do that. "Not to any admin" -Jimbo Wales, Oct. 2007).

Quick suggestion by Irpen

This certainly is a non-emergency matter but a usual piece of wiki-drama in a certain corner of wikipedia that seems to be settling anyway. Nothing extraordinary. However, the Misplaced Pages is still rocking for several days now as a result of the matters related to FT2 and other things effectively putting the credibility of an entire ArbCom under cloud. We have heard that arbitrators are busy discussing this and they also have real lives, etc. Until that matter remains unaddressed by this ArbCom I suggest it does not take any non-urgent tasks. --Irpen 23:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by John Carter

Agree wholeheartedly that, barring clear evidence of Giano soliciting an unblock from Geogre, he should not necessarily be a party to this. Having said that, also agree with Brenneman and Lar above that this case does not necessarily require ArbCom intervention, if the parties involved take this effective warning very seriously and do not repeat such actions in the future. John Carter (talk) 00:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

"...agree with Lar..." ?!? how come he always gets the credit, dammit, even when he's copying me? - brenneman 00:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
'Cause I'm way handsomer, and funnier too. Plus it's knowing who to copy and when that gets you the big bucks around here, not original wit... Hope that helps. Clerks, feel free to torch this witticism, as well as what it is in reply to! ++Lar: t/c 00:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by NeilN

I find this sentence by SirFozzie disturbing, "Block someone, wait for them to reply incivilly as you know they will, and then announce that the block has been extended". Since when do we expect editors to be uncivil? As a completely uninvolved party, and just a "regular" editor on Misplaced Pages, it seems to me that for some reason the fact that WP:CIVIL is policy here is being forgotten. Not a guideline, not an essay, but policy. If an editor continually breaks it then I do not see why their block should be undone without a damn good reason and the appropriate discussion taking place. Sorry if I'm saying the obvious here but going against these community rules just wastes everyone's time and fosters unnecessary drama. --NeilN 00:10, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Weighted Companion Cube

Connolley wheel warred. Geogre did not. Seems open and shut. Weighted Companion Cube (are you still there?/don't throw me in the fire) 00:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Durova

Giano was blocked for incivility and he subsequently compounded the incivility. One of the people he was uncivil toward was myself. I take no offense at his initial statement and tried to offer an olive branch, yet before I had time to post that he added a second and more serious instance (which fits into a pattern of problematic behavior he has directed toward other people). I have requested that he strikethrough part of his second statement; so far he has not done so. If he withdraws it I would gladly withdraw this statement, and if he and the other person mend fences then this arbitration request can be examined as a straightforward wheel war with fewer parties. At this point, however, the conduct of all parties does merit examination. I express this not so much for my own part as from concerns about the larger pattern. If he demonstrates willingness to step back and withdraw injudicious comments, then I'd take that in the best faith as a positive sign of improvement. With respect toward all, Durova 00:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Someone commented at my user talk that Giano is currently blocked. So to clarify, the second instance of incivility occurred on his user talk page where he is capable of withdrawing it. I hope he does. Durova 00:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Upon further consideration it's become necessary to restate in clearer terms: I do not ask Giano to apologize; I do not seek to humble his pride. All I ask for is a retraction. Durova 07:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by TenOfAllTrades

From what I gather, there may be some inadvertent errors in SirFozzie's interpretation of events.

When WMC blocked Giano for the first time, WMC was completely unaware of the provisions of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/IRC, including Giano's civility parole (see WMC's comment). WMC also didn't know that there was an ongoing discussion about several recent incivil posts made by Giano in the last couple of days going on at WP:AE#IRC. In other words, WMC's original (brief) block was based on incomplete knowledge about Giano's history and editing restrictions, and his block had nothing whatsoever to do with Giano's civility parole.

At this point, Giano perhaps would have been best to cut his losses. The folks at WP:AE appeared content to let the three-hour block stand (despite having issued much longer blocks to Giano in previous instances of incivility). Instead, he decided to launch a number of further attacks, leading to a lengthening of the original block out to 48 hours. Given the provisions of the IRC Arbitration, this block length is neither unreasonable nor unexpected (the remedy provides for block durations up to one week, and the preceding blocks had been for 31 and 48 hours).

The calls for WMC's resignation seem out of place. He applied a block that was explicitly provided for in an Arbitration remedy, the length of the block was in line with previous such blocks applied by other administrators, and he had no conflict of interest. I am concerned about Geogre's use of his buttons, however, given his involvement in the IRC Arbitration.

(Full disclosure: I was one among several of the targets of Giano's incivility as reported at WP:AE. Like WMC, I too was unaware of both Giano's parole and the WP:AE reports until well after WMC's initial block of Giano.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Jenny

I would have recommended non-acceptance in the circumstances (there is ongoing bad behavior but there are also other, arguably just as important, fish to fry).

But as it looks like the Committee is about to step up to the plate with this, I suggest that it might be addressed by open motion in the IRC case. User:William M. Connolley is not, to my knowledge, a previously involved admin, he had never blocked Giano before, but his conduct here as an administrator did not do him credit. He surely cannot have been unaware that his personal reblocking of Giano, under whatever provocation, was likely to make tempers worse and not better. Geogre is under the formal "all parties" caution from the IRC case (as am I, for that matter). Giano is subject to a restriction which doesn't seem to be working well.

On the face of it, there are no new matters here that cannot be handled as part of the earlier case. It may well be just a matter for revisiting the remedies and maybe adding a few participants.

Alternatively, if the Committee feels bold enough, it might be an opportunity to make provisions in this case, resembling in form the BLP special enforcement provision from the Footnoted quotes arbitration, making it quite clear that reversing or modifying an administrative action explicitly taken under any arbitration remedy (not solely in the present case) is not to be performed without community consensus following a discussion on WP:AE, or failing that a direct appeal to arbcom. Jenny (Tony Sidaway) 01:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Uncle Uncle Uncle

Was the arbitration committee really set up to rule on insignificant cases of editor-editor incivility on user talk pages even if blocking is involved?

Is the community itself unable to discuss the matter without running to a "higher authority"?

The Arbitration Committee is a panel of experienced users that exists to impose binding solutions to Misplaced Pages disputes that neither communal discussion, administrators, nor mediation have been able to resolve, and to consider certain cases where exceptional factors such as privacy preclude a public hearing. Arbitration is the last step in the dispute resolution process–it is a last resort, only to be employed when all else has failed. Try other steps first, including discussion between disputants and, where appropriate, mediation. The Arbitration Committee only deals with the most serious disputes and cases of rule-breaking.

This case appears to be none of the above - it's just a bunch of kerfluffle by silly monkeys on a tuesday afternoon.

Also - why does the red box at the top of the page say: "This is not a page for discussion." while most of the Statements including mine appear to be discussion?

Uncle uncle uncle 01:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Messedrocker

Giano is clearly a special case in which the standard rules for civility must be reconsidered, as standard procedure is no good in the face of special case. From what I have gleamed, Giano is prone to getting pissed off. I mean this with the most respect possible, Giano, as I see where you're coming from. You have all this BS thrown at you and it's a bitch to just shrug it off and take it with stride -- you want things to be rectified! I think the same way.

In any case, while Giano continues to be of considerable value to our encyclopedia (something many, many administrators cannot claim), I think people should just try to not get offended by what Giano says. Let me put it this way. If Giano's comments is directed at Person A, only Person A is entitled to complain, and even then, Person A ought to try shrugging it off with the idea that Giano is just pissed off and needs to vent. If the comment is just too flagrant or Person A is easily upset, Person A states something along the lines of "Giano, sir, your recent comment leaves me quite offended; I would greatly appreciate it if you would apologize and refactor your comment." Then ideally, Giano does such, or otherwise he gets blocked.

None of this civility blocking on behalf of others, because I know if Giano called me a smelly retard, I wouldn't care.

MessedRocker (talk) 02:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Húsönd

I don't know if it's more worrisome that this was brought to the Arbcom at the speed of light, or that it was accepted at the speed of light. Contention, reflection and mediation seem to be rather volatile concepts these days. Húsönd 02:28, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Guettarda

There's nothing here the community can't handle. The committee needs to sort out it's own problems before it takes on any more work. Guettarda (talk) 02:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

strongly concur. I think it beggars belief actually. Privatemusings (talk) 03:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Agree. There seems to be rather a backlog already. . dave souza, talk 04:23, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Dragon695

I saw this happening in real time. Giano really doesn't need to be a party to this, he got his deserved block and is living with it. In my mind, the undoing of Giano's block was not a great idea and should be examined. However, it was unacceptable for WMC to go on Giano's talk page and basically bait him into violating his civility parole even more. Even worse, when a neutral third party, Avi, tried to remedy the unblock situation, WMC WP:WHEEL warred his earlier blocks back into place. WMC obviously was too involved by this point and should have sought community input at AN/I. I made note of it being not a good idea to wheel war in the hopes that he might reconsider his actions, but that didn't seem to register. I urge ArbCom to take this up, obviously a serious breakdown in process happened here. Blocks should not be used to scold editors like they are naughty children, that is very condescending and will only make them more angry. You really need to limit that remedy on Giano to a small subset of trusted, neutral administrators. --Dragon695 (talk) 03:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Franamax

We have here an instance of incivility from Giano which resulted in a 3-hour block by WMC. Now, within a matter of minutes, Giano describes the poster whose original comment resulted in his block, regarding other posts the poster made, on subjects well known to Giano, as variously silly, sarcastic, stupid and idiot, albeit on his own talk page. Pretty dumb, but still just steam-venting within the first ten minutes of a block.

Now it gets a little wild. Five minutes later Giano mentions that the OP got some "other fool" to block him, then seven minutes later says that "anyone making an edit such as this to me...is either very stupid or knows exactly what they are doing" (not directed at a specific person, note) and refers to "stupid Admin". Then, in the process of modifying that to "stupid Admins" (which we're all allowed to say, right?), WMC enacts a 24-hour block. Giano responds on his talk page with wording on the lines of "naive, stupid and ridiculuous", directed at the blocking admin, who responds with "Oh well, make it 48h then". Beyond the original block of three hours, the further blocks seem to be retaliatory, and an escalation of sanctions designed to convey to the user an intent to "win the war".

Getting even better, Geogre now comes along and overturns the block without notice anywhere other than Giano's talk page. Geogre doesn't re-establish the block to its original end-point, possibly due to an overtaking re-block by Avraham. Geogre may have some basis here to overturn a bad block (i.e. the lengthened block) but has no justification for failing to make at least a post-facto notice to any of the blocking admin, an admin noticeboard, or perhaps the sandbox.

Putting the cherry on top of the cone, WMC now unequivocally wheel-wars to re-establish the original lengthy block, now with the extra bonus of being extended some number of minutes.

Everyone here emerges covered in glory with their honour intact, each firmly defending the principles of the wiki as they see them. Rather than proceeding to ArbCom, I would suggest that Giano apologize for his belligerent language (just making a little joke there, but this is not the tree on which to hang Giano, he'll pick his own); Geogre should apologize for overturning the action of another admin without either prior or post notification in the right places; and WMC should apologize for escalating the situation without checking his actions first on a public noticeboard. A little personal ackowledgement sans "he made me do it" would go a long way here, and we could get back to our regularly scheduled program of "ArbCom is a witch! Burn it!" Oh yeah, I suggest ArbCom decline this case, so long as everyone does what I say. Franamax (talk) 04:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:B

Regarding Guettarda/Privatemusings' comments, I'm not sure what action the community could take here. Giano's block log is an absolute embarassment. I don't know (or care) whether Giano ought to have been blocked or not, but I count 13 block/unblock pairs where the unblocking was done by someone other than the blocking admin. Something isn't right there and whether that something is that admins are too anxious to block Giano or too anxious to unblock, there is a problem that the community has been woefully unable to resolve here. This is the second time that Geogre has unblocked Giano and the first was a whopping 13 minutes after the block. William M. Connolley's decision to lengthen the block originally and to reinstitute it also left a lot to be desired. This is a mess and needs arbcom to step in as it's obvious that administrators have proven unable to handle the issue of Giano's blocks. --B (talk) 04:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

B's questions to arbiters

Paul August, could you explain your reason for declining? Thebainer, have you considered recusing yourself since you have previously blocked Giano? --B (talk) 04:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Thatcher

I have long felt that extending the block of an editor who is pissed off at a block and venting on his talk page is petty. I merely ignore the ranting unless it persists after the block expired. But that is a personal view.

On the subject of wheel warring, I would like to point out that Arbcom, by virtue of declining to hear at least two previous "wheel warring" cases, has rejected the view that reversing an admin action constitutes "wheel warring" so that only on the third and subsequent action does wheel warring occur. At the time I pointed out that this will always give the upper hand to the second admin, the reversing admin, by forcing the acting admin to prove or justify re-doing the original action but not requiring the same of the reversing admin. But there you are (diffs later if needed). So under that definition (Geogre's entirely predictable action nonetheless) only William Connolley wheel-warred. Thatcher 07:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

Four votes to accept noted. This case will open (provided net four votes to accept still exists) in 24 hours per convention, unless we recieve direction from arbitrators to expedite the opening of this case. Daniel (talk) 00:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (5/2/0/0)

OrangeMarlin

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request`
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
  • None listed

Statement by NonvocalScream (talk)

I urge the committee to look into the editor behavior cited in this case, more importantly, what is acceptable on the wiki, and what is not. I also encourage the committee to look into the editing behavior of not only the editor cited in the case title, but any other editors behavior involved. Regardless of an editors status as a vested contributor, I urge the committee to define disruptive and disallowed editing styles.

  • I'll note the message on the user talk of Orangemarlin, I can no longer recommend arbitration for a case that has been settled... Now the FT2/committee issue may need looking into, but seperatly from the user conduct of Orangemarlin. NonvocalScream (talk) 14:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Amerique

Restarting this case is a bad idea. The Arbs have not identified who (which members of the committee) initiated the previous case, or who 'voted' in what way that lead to the previous decision or to vacating the previous decision. Therefore, it is impossible for me to believe that the Arbcom can act without further prejudice on these matters. This case must be completely rescinded, and not brought up again until the individual disputants have entirely exhausted all other avenues of the DR process, if in fact they want to continue pushing this. Amerique 17:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by dave souza

As already demonstrated here, this case has been brought on severely flawed evidence. It includes incidents which have already led Orangemarlin to improve his behaviour, and this episode should have a salutory effect in ensuring that there should be no recurrence of problems arising from unacceptable incivility from this user. The draconian sanctions imposed would have severely hampered good work by the user, and would have been open to abuse by admins who oppose Orangemarlin's pro-science stance.

Lar, the evidence hasn't all been examined, but there are serious flaws in the case, for example FT2 seems to think that there are reliable secondary sources that contest that "ID is religion", and apparently fails to appreciate NPOV - giving "equal validity". As a self-proclaimed non-expert, FT2 seems to have badly misunderstood the whole situation. Proper analysis of all the "evidence" is required, and rushing in a way that prevents such analysis is no way to achieve transparency and fairness. . . dave souza, talk 19:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Response to Comment from Gnixon

#Comment from Gnixon:UPDATE is a personal attack, with an accusation of insincerity suggesting that Gnixon aspires to mind reading. Mootness#Voluntary cessation applies to United States court decisions, and is wholly inappropriate here where an editor has been asked to ameend his behaviour, and has agreed to do as requested. Gnixon has been asked on his talk page to provide diffs supporting his accusation and has said that his "plan is to add diffs tonight when I get a chance. If memory serves, they'll be easy to find." Such diffs would be irrelevant. Diffs can only show past behaviour, and as seen in the "evidence" originally presented this can easily be misinterpreted. Gnixon's failure to assume good faith is not constructive or helpful. . . dave souza, talk 20:09, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Lar

I think there is plenty to look into in this matter. The evidence already compiled was apparently believed by some arbitrators to be sufficient to issue a summary judgement... it certainly is strong enough to warrant opening a case. I suspect this being a public case means more evidence, positive and negative, will be introduced, and that not all of it may be confined strictly to OM. If the question now is "open as a public case" vs. "dismiss", I support opening it as a public case. I am was confused by Rlevse's staement below that the "RFAR was opened". Was it? Or was the final ruling repudiated and this is now up for a normal vote? or something else? Clarification appreciated. ++Lar: t/c 17:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Clarification no longer needed. The REQUEST has been opened, by ArbCom repudiating the summary judgement and remanding it back, the CASE is not open unless the request passes... all clear. It was I who was confused. ++Lar: t/c 19:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

With respect to the request for prior steps in dispute resolution, I would point to Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Intelligent Design... however that focuses more on other editors than it does on OM, so I did not just go add it despite Rlevse's request. ++Lar: t/c 18:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Dragon695 did add it, then decided to remove it again. All I was saying was that I myself was not sure it counted. Others might think so, I would have no objection either way. I think digging would find more cases where people had tried informal DR or at least bringing issues to OM's attention. I think some of that is already in the evidence proffered, IIRC. ++Lar: t/c 19:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

To Dave souza: I don't think the evidence is at all repudiated, nor do I think the behaviour has improved to the point that there is no issue worthy of investigation. ++Lar: t/c 18:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

To Dave souza's reply to my comment: This case is about behaviour. Not about what is or isn't science. You are introducing irrelevancies, in my view. The proximate question here is whether OM's behaviour is satisfactory. The evidence there is plenty sufficient to suggest that some sort of DR is needed, specifically about OM's behaviour. The ID omnibus RfC doesn't in my view, seem to be getting at that. Yet. Perhaps it could. Those asking for a close, are you willing to foster some sort of other DR? Willing to acknowledge that there is indeed a behavioural issue that needs resolving? If you're all convinced OM has done no wrong, you're wasting my time because it just ain't so. ++Lar: t/c 19:17, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

To those asking for dismissal now on various procedural grounds, that sounds like ruleslawyering to me... Why not actually mount a defense, now that opportunity is being offered? Or are you saying that no defense is possible? I expect arbitrators will be, if this case is accepted, bending over backwards to be impartial and fair, even more so than they usually are. ++Lar: t/c 18:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: (just like GRBerry's disclaimer, those referring to my remarks should not be assumed to refer to this addendum... unless they say so.) I note, as have many others, that OM has posted a "new leaf" statement on his talk page, noting that the community has issues, evidencing that he's internalised them, and undertaking to do better in future. That is laudable... VERY laudable AWESOME! I think I speak for (almost?) everyone in wishing him well. If there is any way to help, he has but to ask, and I expect many of us, including myself, will be glad to aid him. But I do think there still is merit in continuing the case... if only to make it clear that it wasn't acceptable, and to determine how the community failed OM in not making him more aware of the issues sooner, and failed OM in not aiding the ID project's work earlier, and more forcefully. (yes I said ID project, not ID cabal... they are different). That there is now an ID cabal is at least in part the community's fault, isn't it?... the highly corrosive and mind numbing effect of working in that area should not be overlooked. That is not a free pass. Not even an "excuse"... We still expect civility. We still expect folk not to disdain newcomers or brush them off with alphabet soup or get snappish, or worse... but it is a recognition that perhaps not all the blame lies with those who have fallen short of the mark in being collegial working in difficult conditions. ++Lar: t/c 21:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

One last thing, I'm confused by the need for this case being on an expedited basis. Other cases languish... this one can maybe take more than a week, hmm? ++Lar: t/c 21:08, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

OK just one more thing... Misplaced Pages doesn't do due process!!!! I think I explained that to Moulton a few times. He didn't get due process in his case, and he didn't get why that was. Presumably all of you asking for "due process"... you all "get" how things are done here better than Moulton does, right, you're all more socially adapted, Right? This is a project. To the extent that someone interferes with the smooth running of it, that comes first. Not due process. To the extent that someone getting a raw deal interferes with the smooth running of ArbCom (i.e. we all stop giving credence/enforcing sanctions, ect) then that's bad, and raw deals interfere with the efficient operation of things and ought not to happen. Ya we should be fair... But not because of some abstract due process or fairness or whatev... Completely utilitarian reasoning, no rights based reasoning need apply. ++Lar: t/c 03:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:B

I note that the "Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried" section is strangely empty. I can say that I have noticed that Orangemarlin has toned it down a lot since the Jim62sch case and I think some evidence of wrongdoing since that time would need to be provided to justify taking the case. And by "wrongdoing", I don't mean "calling someone who believes in white pride a racist". --B (talk) 17:32, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

FYI to anyone who cares, please see User_talk:Orangemarlin#Statement (diff in case it gets archived). I take that as a sign that community action has been successful in resolving the issue and there is not a need for arbitration. --B (talk) 12:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by barneca

At this stage, I think everyone is best served if the AC does not accept this case. Because of the way this case was handled, I don't think the community will ever respect the results of an official case now; there will always be a sizeable percentage of people convinced that "the fix was in". It was marketed to us originally as being the consensus of the AC, so it's impossible now to dispel doubts that the AC will be hearing it with an open mind. In essence, FT2 has given a "free pass" to OM on this one; regrettable, since I personally think his actions were sanctionable, but I think that is the case. The overarching issues that NonvocalScream mentions above will need to be dealt with sooner rather than later, but this case is no longer the best place to go about doing that; the lingering controversy will always weaken the authority of any decision. Better to wait for another, similar instance by someone else (there will certainly be one soon, I'm sure), and deal with festering meta-issues there.

This is not a perfect solution, but don't let the perfect be an enemy of the good. Best for all concerned to drop this, and start the much more important process of repairing the damage to the AC's reputation. --barneca (talk) 17:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by DuncanHill

I feel that as a result of the aborted case, it is impossible for a new case to be heard in a fair and proper manner at this time. The Arbcom has unfortunately undermined its own abilities by misdirecting itself about the proprieties of hearing a case in secret and with no defence, and may have (however inadvertently) coloured their minds in relation to the case. DuncanHill (talk) 17:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by RMHED

How can Arbcom possibly now consider accepting this case, all members of the current committee are tainted by the ongoing circus FT2gate has become. There are no impartial members of the committee in regards to this case. If propriety is to be maintained it must be rejected. To put things crudely, as far as this case is concerned Arbcom have 'Pissed on their chips'. RMHED (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by William M. Connolley

This request is premature and rushed. It should be rejected pending an user RFC William M. Connolley (talk) 18:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Fut.Perf

I don't see how the committee could possibly be in a position to handle this case with the necessary authority. There has been an unknown amount of previous discussion, where an unknown number of arbitrators has already commented, and very likely pre-judged the case. At least some members besides FT2, the complainant, have already agreed to sanctions. As long as we don't know who these arbitrators are, to what degree each of them already has a vested position on the matter, and what internal behind-closed-door conflicts between them are already associated with the issue, none of them is in a position to play the judge here in public. Each of them would have to recuse themselves.

In other words, I repeat here what I said elsewhere: Show us what happened behind closed doors, or you have no business arbitrating anything. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by EconomicsGuy

I see that Charles Matthews decided to vote on this already despite this claim that there would be a 48 hours period from the filing of the request to the arbs would be voting. Not only does the right hand not know what the left hand is doing anymore, the right hand can't even remember what he posted 2 hours or so ago. Good grief. EconomicsGuy (talk) 18:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Dragon695

Look, leaving this hanging out there will do no good. It started and it might as well be finished. The evidence compiled by FT2 is quite accurate and displays the multiple attempts to get this editor to change their ways. DR with the defenders of science has been an abject failure in the past, they refuse to admit that treating people who disagree with them like shit is outside our community norms. I urge acceptance. --Dragon695 (talk) 18:50, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Per Lar's observation that it may not be focused enough on OM, I have self-reverted my addition of the ID RFC to the list of previous DR attempts. --Dragon695 (talk) 19:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Orderinchaos

I have come to the conclusion that OrangeMarlin's behaviour, along with that of a few editors who seem to be on the same side of a generally unrelated debate related to Intelligent Design, has become a major problem and source of disruption. On two RfAs, they tag-teamed in an attempt (successful in the case of Avruch's) to disrupt the process. They have made ridiculous and offensive allegations against editors, particularly related to racism (often going well beyond any conventional dictionary definition of racism), and assume bad faith towards anyone who disagrees with them. It's like an "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality and is seriously unhelpful. e.g. Significant drama has also erupted at AN/I and AN over similar and related matters. Recent comments by all of the involved editors suggest nothing will change soon without sanction from ArbCom.

I do not believe an RfC would solve the problems as, firstly, this mess is drawing in editors completely unrelated to the initial dispute whose only reason for involvement is anger at one or more of the parties for actions taken elsewhere, and secondly, it's already at the stage of trench warfare and the parties aren't talking to each other in a way remotely approximating impending collaboration or a state of affairs where such could arise. We need to deal with bad or disruptive behaviour, not give it a platform to flourish. Disruptive bullies in other areas of the encyclopaedia have been able to persist for years, driving away other good faith editors and poisoning the editing atmosphere in entire swathes of content areas, until trapped unexpectedly by the consequences of their hubris and excess which then becomes the pretext for their removal - I've seen it three or four times in my 2½ years here, and I'm sure every other long-term regular can think of at least one such instance in their own editing areas.

As mentioned previously in another place, my own position on the ID issue is probably closer to that of those I criticise than of their opponents - I avoid the topic entirely, and my interest in this case relates more to the extreme levels of process disruption, incivility, hostility and tag-teaming rather than any content or other issue. I was aware of the conduct long before I was aware of what specifically united the editors involved.

With regard to the process, I tend to find myself largely in agreement with Lar's comments here and elsewhere, and Avi's reasoned comments below. I am disappointed, but I think it's been a spectacular stuff-up rather than any malintentioned move - I believe the people involved were attempting to help the encyclopaedia but it was the hows rather than the whats that brought it unstuck. Orderinchaos 19:20, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Guettarda

There's no way that the committee can consider this until (a) FT2 is removed from the committee and has no further access to the arbs unavailable to ordinary editors and (b) the arbcomm come clean about what went wrong. There's no way this can be fairly heard until the matter of FT2 is resolved. Something about seeing to the plank in your eye before the speck in someone else's

Umm...so what happened to the 48 hours to present their cases before the arbs decide whether to accept it or not? Post by Charles, no less. This farce has gone too far. The committee has no legitimacy. Guettarda (talk) 19:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

statement by DGG

As others have said, having been started--however irregularly--it should be finished. In fact, the nature of proceedings so far makes it all the more necessary that it be heard and concluded. FT2 may well wish to recuse himself from the discussion. DGG (talk) 19:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Shoemaker's Holiday (talk)

This rush to run the case after all is somewhat unseemly, and compounds the problems. Instead, I'd suggest running an RfC, or other community-based dispute resolution, then returning to the case after some time has passed, if necessary. To accept this case again while A. FT2 is claiming other arbitrators supported the secret case, and B. When Charles Matthews' statement that "a number of Arbitrators were in the end, and after review of the case, not convinced of the need for such summary implementation" implies that they DID run a secret case, then thought better of it - which substantially hampers the ability of the Arbcom to judge the case fairly.

Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:Filll

I am stunned. Going ahead with the case under these circumstances, particularly on an expedited basis, is a very bad idea. Does Jimbo's statement mean nothing? Does the feedback of the community at the RfC mean nothing? I would ask that until things settle down, that there be some patience, exactly what the committee has asked for from the community. What is the rush? Why not even an RfC first? --Filll (talk | wpc) 19:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

After reading FT2's comment

I am just amazed. FT2, I have no idea what is going on. Have you not paid any attention to what is going on on assorted Wiki talk pages? That your "evidence" has been repeatedly rejected as one-sided ? That confidence in the judgement of the committee is now severely shaken? That Jimbo has even weighed in to state his displeasure with what you did? That an RfC has been opened against the committee because of your actions? This entire request has been compromised and discredited?

The fact that you do not realize this really gives me serious pause. Wow.--Filll (talk | wpc) 23:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Swatjester

I don't mean this as a criticism of the ArbCom, but simply put, they cannot impartially pass judgment upon one of their own members. Any judgment they pass will reflect upon the whole committee, and as such, there would be a tendency for the committee to circle the wagons and protect one of their own, even if he made the wrong decision, even if they disagree with it, simply because chastising him would reflect poorly on themselves. I don't think the committee can fairly consider this case, even though I think that on the merits, and were it anybody else other than an arbitrator, it would absolutely bear consideration. ⇒SWATJester 20:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by MastCell

Arguing over whether or not this case should be accepted is a waste of breath: it will be. I'm more interested in understanding where the bar is for recusal. FT2 is a no-brainer, but this case has been the subject of significant (though apparently largely one-sided) discussion by the Committee, to the point of concocting "evidence" and "remedies" which were viewed and implicitly or explicitly endorsed by at least some of the Committee. That can't be undone, but I'd like to see some level of introspection by individual Arbs about whether they've already committed themselves to the point that they should recuse. MastCell  20:17, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Avi

While I believe that it may be prudent, for appearances sakes, for FT2 to recuse himself from this discussion, I fail to see how this should be about FT2. FT2 was acting, to the best of our knowledge, to the best of his knowledge, for and on behalf of ArbCom. We have no reason that I know of, other than assuming bad faith, that FT2 was acting out of any vendetta or personal interest. DT2's listing as a party to this case is one of tradition, that the filer is listed as a party. As for the case itself, let me preface this by saying I am quite ignorant as to the details of OM vis-avis ArbCom vis-a-vis ID. However, in my opinion, it is clear that ArbCom is in possession of information that, at least some members felt, paints OM's actions in a poor light. There are times that public hearings are the greater of two evils; however, there should always be an opportunity for the subject of the ArbCom discussion to have the right to refute the charges. At worst, the subject will fulfill the initial statement's prophecy of responding with misdirection, smoke and mirrors. At best, the subject will make a reasoned defense, combined with a solid indication of acceptable editing behavior, which has been posited has already been displayed. A priori (gratuitous latin phrase), I could understand ArbCom holding these discussions off-wiki, via e-mail or private wiki, only including the complainants and defendants. However, now that this has, for lack of a better term, exploded into the wikisphere, it is more prudent to hold this as open as possible, should OM agree to its being open, to soothe the community's concerns. Of course, should OM feel that his interests are better served without the cameras and notebooks, I would feel this should be done more privately. Regardless, there seems to be enough evidence that the case should continue; I see no indication that ArbCom has sacrificed its impartiality, even FT2 in my opinion-for which there is no evidence that he was acting in anything other than the best of faith for ArbCom, but in his case, simply to go above and beyond the law to ensure that propriety is more than maintained, but magnified, I would counsel recusal from the decision; and any concerns about FT2 should be relegated to a separate discussion, and not discussed here. -- Avi (talk) 20:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment to Badger Drink
If there needs to be any discussions of FT2's actions and their appropriateness, it needs to occur outside of this case. FT2's actions have nothing to do with OM; they have to do whether or not he was acting in good faith as the ArbCom mouthpiece or noty, which is a completely independent issue from any behavioral violations that OM may have occurred. A different and separate RfC, RfAR, or merely request for clarification may be warranted, but to conflate the two is to make this case irrevocably compromised and full of contagion. -- Avi (talk) 05:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Durova

Please see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Arbitration_Committee#View_by_Durova_2. I've seen requests for cases before where the prior dispute resolution was misattributed or inadquate, but this is the first time none was even listed. Although Orangemarlin's conduct has not been above reproach, none of his actions merit an emergency case. Recommend a swift procedural rejection of this proposal without prejudice. Durova 20:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Ludwigs2 The present RfC on ArbCom was drafted in March, long before Orangemarlin's conduct came under special scrutiny. Please review Misplaced Pages:RFAR#Prior_steps. Our standard community practice is to undertake preliminary dispute resolution in the hope of amicable and simpler solutions. Although there may come a time when an arbitration case on OM becomes appropriate, that time is not now. Holding an RFAR at this time turns the temperature up rather than down, and imputing corrupt politics doesn't help that either. I have explained the genesis of that RFC in several venues, and will gladly address additional concerns (preferably somewhere other than here). In the meantime please trust my assurance: it was undertaken in good faith with the best interests of the site at heart, and the connection to Orangemarlin is mostly a matter of circumstance and timing. Durova 22:28, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Reply to GRBerry The indef block of Moulton was bad process followed correctly; Orangemarlin and the rest of the ID project hadn't set up those policies and guidelines to be flawed. I know because I'd been involved months before when the things were getting debated and had argued strenuously against the provisions that later failed Moulton (I was in the minority and overruled). Look at Misplaced Pages talk:Disruptive editing and its archives, for example. When process is flawed the thing to do is fix it, not use one bad case as an excuse to initiate other bad precedent. Durova 08:42, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Horologium

I don't think anyone has suggested this: Since there are some justifiable doubts about the ability of the Arbitration Committee to effectively mediate this case, how about asking one of the other wikipedia's arbritration committees to look, or perhaps a committee composed of members from several different projects? I don't think that either side has justification to use this stuff-up as an excuse to short circuit process. It is irresponsible to ignore the pattern of behavior discussed in the evidence, but it is equally irresponsible to blindside an editor who has been a productive contributor by dropping sanctions upon him with absolutely no discussion or chance to respond. Horologium (talk) 20:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Ramdrake

This case should be turned down by ArbComm, as it is malformed, no evidence of prior RfC or prior dispute resolution having been presented. There is no overwhelming reason (in the community's best interests) to jump to this step (RfArb) totally out of process.--Ramdrake (talk) 21:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Ludwigs2

I would like to point out - and please take this in the spirit of ironic amusement, as I do - the tremendous efforts being exerted to transform this from a discussion about OrangeMarlin's alleged bad acts into a discussion about ArbCom's alleged bad acts. This is a tactic, people; one that I have seen used throughout wikipedia, and in particular one used frequently by OrangeMarlin himself. The general thought seems to be that if one can throw enough mud on everyone else, one will look clean by comparison... I would urge the ArbCom committee to ignore the tactic completely and make whatever decisions and actions they think are necessary based solely on the evidence and merits of the case. If later some impropriety is discovered that needs to be addressed, remedial actions can be taken and apologies can be given, but it is far more important for the committee to show that it is not influenced by what amounts to blackmail (i.e. "drop this case now or ArbCom's reputation will be ruined").

I mean really... seeing this tactic used on hapless newcomers is bad enough; I do not want to see it effectively legitimized as the basic operating principle of Misplaced Pages. --Ludwigs2 21:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Stephan Schulz

There is no hope that any ruling in this case will be accepted by the community. As far as we can deduce from comments made, several arbiters have already prejudged this case (see User_talk:FT2#Plea_for_comments). What's more, apparently no arbiter has recognized the unacceptability of the original procedure at the time, and only one or two have recognized the size of the mess by now. The suggested time frame ("expedited") and it's violation by Charles below give the impression that the primary motivation is not to come to an acceptable evaluation of the situation, but to get the unpleasant mess off the table as fast as possible.

I also question the procedural correctness of this RfAr. According to long-standing WP:Arbitration Policy, "the Committee will not hear disputes where they have not been requested to rule". If ArbCom members can bring cases before ArbCom, this restriction becomes essentially moot.

As far as I'm concerned, the Committee should immediately drop this case ("with prejudice" - now there's a fitting example of double entendre) and concentrate on working with the community to achieve more transparency, to enable a more efficient and less stressful workflow, and to regain the lost trust. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

This refers to Charles nearly immediate acceptance of the case, without waiting to consider community input , retracted here. An while I don't want to pick nits, it's customarily expected that comments that others have already replied to are striken, not deleted, so that the context is clear.

Comment by User:Fainites

There has been nothing said to suggest FT2 acted with anything other than good faith or without the agreement of ArbCom. Whilst it may well be the case that the wider comment on Wiki will result in different rules about secret trials, there is nothing to suggest that ArbCom as a whole have not acted in good faith either. They have decided to hear the matter again. If the issue of recusal arises it must arise for all the arbitrators who agreed the arbitration and decision that was posted by FT2, not just FT2. That then begs the question - who is to hear the case? The choice is either the existing committee including FT2, all of whom have earned their good faith over the years, or some other tribunal with appropriate knowledge, experience and community trust. A difficult task. Fainites 21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Blueboy96

There are circumstances under which it is appropriate--indeed, necessary--for ArbCom to 1) hold an in-camera arbitration and/or 2) make a summary decision. This isn't one of them. What is even more troubling is that this was made without any opportunity for OrangeMarlin to mount a defense. The evidence appears to spell out unacceptable behavior by OrangeMarlin, but to deny him even a chance to defend himself is highly troubling, to say the least. The rationale for this action offered by FT2--which basically amounts to "We've heard this before"--is not even remotely convincing. I would think we need to consider whether FT2 possesses the judgment necessary to serve in such a high position of trust on this project.

To those who say this case should be rejected with prejudice--I would agree, except for the possibility raised that a user may well have been banned because of OrangeMarlin's actions. If a user was unjustly banned, it would be grossly irresponsible not to look into it. Blueboy96 22:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Having viewed OM's statement, in my opinion arbitration is no longer necessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blueboy96 (talk • contribs) 20:23 June 30, 2008 (UTC)
Addendum In looking at the Rbj case, I momentarily forgot that Rbj sealed his own fate by harassing OM via anon IPs. Therefore, Rbj's ban can't be blamed on OrangeMarlin's actions as I suggested earlier. Blueboy96 20:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

After reading FT2's statement, I find myself agreeing with Moreschi. Unless FT2 can either 1) explain what was so egregious about OrangeMarlin's behavior to deny him even a chance to defend himself or 2) provide a very (and I mean VERY) compelling reason why he can't, he should resign as an arbitrator. Blueboy96 12:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment to Flo

Well, the RfArb was basically initiated by the ArbCom, after this statement on behalf of the committee so I'm not sure how you really expect the initiator (arbcom) to have discussed previous concerns with the editor. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:46, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Further comment

Is it really fair to say that FT2 was the initial filing party? Yeah, it looked like he did the work on the case behind closed doors, but someone must have asked arbcom to take a look at it. FT2 getting the evidence together and forming a proposed decision does not mean that he created the request. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:54, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Applause to Flo

For a nice bit of stalling, now it only remains for someone to hand FT2 the revolver and convince the poor sap to do the decent thing. Once that deed is done, then the rest of Arbcom can agree to hear this case in complete impartiality as they were obviously the innocent victims of FT2's attempted grab for power. RMHED (talk) 23:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:BirgitteSB

I have looked closely at about a third of the evidence. There is certainly problematic behavior by OM, but it is nothing all that complex or unusual about his edit-warring which leads to uncivil outbursts when he is frustrated in the edit-warring. I think the claims of duplicity are completely unfounded. This is a guy who will plainly post on highly watched user talk page Thanks. You save me from getting an automated 3RR warning from the POV pushers. This is pretty simple case of a guy who is so completely certain his edits are correct that he will keep putting them in, ask others to intercede, and dismiss anyone who disagrees with him as not worth hearing. And he is very upfront on-wiki that this is what he doing. Personally I am leaning towards the thought that he needs to be on 1RR, because his other problems mainly stem from edit-warring. I don't know if there are effective ways of getting someone on 1RR without and arbitration case. However if acceptance of this case mean it "will be opened and considered on an expedited basis with the parties advised to present all evidence and workshop proposals within one week", I really suggest that the case be rejected. Getting anything done in a timely, much less and expedited manner, in summer is asking alot. And that week will cover a very busy time in the US. Considering the widespread lack of confidence in the handling of this case up till now; a rushed case will be worse than doing nothing. I really believe this is simple problem that may be solved by a RfC coupled with inevitable extra scrutiny this fiasco will bring on OM. If, however, acceptance of this case will mean that the case will considered on painstakingly careful basis, I think there is certainly something to look into here. However what there is to look into is not "a sustained habit of harassment and gaming against users whose views Orangemarlin considers in opposition to his own." --BirgitteSB 01:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Response to recent statements
  • I commend OM's statement of reflection. Whatever the outcome here, I strongly encourage his friends to take the initiative to offer guidance to him in the future. That this incident was able to bring about such a reflection most likely means that his friends have failed to offer him the proper guidance in the past.
  • I find FT2's statement to be out of touch. I can only wonder if all the time the arbitrators have taken to straighten internal communications has meant they have not been able to give proper attention to responses to these events. I encourage every arbitrator to catch themselves up to speed with the various responses on-wiki before making further public statements. The loss of confidence due to internal miscommunication need not be followed by greater loss of confidence due to arbs speaking to the situation of two days ago rather than the situation of today.--BirgitteSB 23:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:Dlabtot

Based on my limited interaction with OrangeMarlin he is a disruptive editor who is not interested in working withing the boundaries of Misplaced Pages's rules. I hope the Arbitration Committee will not let the mob intimidate them and will instead focus on the issue - OrangeMarlin's behavior.. Dlabtot (talk) 01:33, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by GRBerry

I see some people above commenting that because of the procedural cockup, there is no way that Orangemarlin can get a fair hearing, so we need to give him a "get out of jail forever" pass. Baloney. Due process is not even an issue. When Moulton asked the Arbcomm to consider whether he had been given due process, the committee declined it, because due process is irrelevant. The process cockup is also totally irrelevant here.

The relevant questions are: 1) has Orangemarlin done anything problematic or been a cause of dispute due to his behavior? and 2) can the community successfully address those issues without arbitration?. The answer to #1, having read the evidence FT2 presented, is obviously yes - anyone who doesn't admit this is in full blown denial. I don't see any evidence that the community can successfully address the concerns. The wider community has thus far, at the ID RFC, had no real luck digging in and examining the behavior of individual editors - the relevant views aren't being written by anybody. The evidence that might convince me that the community can handle it is if those who agreed with him on content were visibly trying to clean up the behavior. This isn't visible to me, but I haven't dug very deeply. What I see instead is them trying to defend him and leave him free to continue the behavior. In these circumstances, I think an Arbitration case is not only advisable, it is necessary. GRBerry 01:55, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Others have referred to my comments prior to this addition. They shouldn't be assumed to be referring to this addition. I see Orangemarlin has now made a statement (linked below by Giggy) in which he acknowledges that his behavior was problematic and promises to attempt to reform. This is a good piece of evidence that there is a real chance that the situation can be handled without an arbitration case at this time. Accordingly, I can no longer describe an Arbitration case as necessary, and withdraw that portion of the above comment. I am now uncertain what the best path forward is.
At least one commentor on his talk page has suggested that he find/receive a mentor. This does seem to me like an idea that could be quite helpful, if done well. If this is the path taken, a mentor from outside his usual circle would be advisable, particularly one with a good reputation themselves on the relevant issues. GRBerry 17:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Alex Bakharev (talk)

Frankly 99% of the community do not care about the OrangeMarlin or the ID dispute in general nor should they care, it is an obscure fringe area of science. What do they should care about is about having functional Arbcom as a body we trust. Since the talks about the trenchwar, etc., it appears that OrangeMarlin conduct should not be studied in isolation but in the context of the whole ID conflict. It seems to be difficult for the current Arbcom and is not particular urgent. What is indeed urgent is to investigate what have happened with this case now. Thus I support the idea to officially form a commission to investigate the event. It might include Jimbo, Arbcom members from other projects (like Horologium has suggested), Arbcom-emerituses (can we ask NewYorkBrad for the last ditch effort?), WMF staff and/or board members. After the case in understood and Arcom is somehow cleared of suspicion. Then they might investigate the ID conflict. Meanwhile if OrangeMarlin's behavior becomes egregiously incivil he might be blocked by any administrator or by a community consensus. There is no urgency in handling civility parole notices Alex Bakharev (talk) 03:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC) Another avenue for investigation might be the m:Cross-wiki arbitration committee (thanks MBisanz!) Alex Bakharev (talk) 03:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:Noroton

I agree with everything GRBerry said. The opinion FT2 wrote up on OrangeMarlin shows, at least, that this is a case worth a hearing. It is also fair to OrangeMarlin to give him the opportunity to defend his reputation in public, if he chooses to do so. And it's important to the rest of us in the community to see that Arbcom as a whole officially supports or doesn't support FT2's conclusion on this. And Arbcom now has its own reputation to protect. At every level, this case needs to be accepted for the good of Misplaced Pages. If accepted, Arbcom should be crossing every "t" and dotting every "i". Best practice would be to be as open as possible in the committee's votes, letting everyone see who voted for each finding of fact, etc., and there should be active participation by a broad number of committee members on the various public pages. Each member should be plain and clear in explaining votes. Any further irregular actions in this case should have a full explanation from someone speaking with authority. Every PR expert worth his or her salt will tell you that when you have a public-relations debacle on your hands, you open up. (And if there's a doubt in your mind about that, I suggest you look it up.) Bend over backwards, as Lar says he expects you to do. I suggest removing FT2 from any behind-the-scenes Arbcom deliberations about this case (work off of a separate private discussion forum that he doesn't have access to), and announce that. It would help restore confidence. If OrangeMarlin mounts a defense, the rest of us will be more assured that a fair hearing was held, and if he chooses not to mount a defense, the rest of us will still be assured that he was offered a fair chance. I saw some talk on OrangeMarlin's page that Arbcom wasn't giving him enough time to prepare a defense (which is a bit odd since by reading FT2's conclusions he's now got a leg up on his defense). If he requests more time, give it to him. Ultimately, your authority doesn't rest on Jimbo having founded the committee or however many policies or guidelines refer to Arbcom, it rests on the faith Misplaced Pages's editors have that you're going to handle cases in a fundamentally fair manner. In the current circumstances, encouraging that faith is actually even more important than whatever happens to the OrangeMarlin account. In normal circumstances it would be presumptuous for me to say it, but in this circumstance here's some important advice offered with respect: Don't blow it. Noroton (talk) 03:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Badger Drink describes the accusations against OrangeMarlin as, Mr. OrangeMarlin's poor table manners. When Mr. OrangeMarlin's fellow diners have prong marks in their skin, it's no longer a question about how to hold a fork. I agree that this might be a good time and place to consider FT2's conduct, and it might be a good forum for him to comment on it and for other ArbCom members to discuss the committee's failings in the way this case was handled. An honest accounting, unforced by others, would be extremely healthy. People can forgive a lot when you're honest, but if you attempt to downplay it, you'll harm your reputation -- and I mean the reputation of the ArbCom as an institution -- even more. I think for each committee member and also for the committee as a whole, it's worth considering another Latin phrase: mea culpa. Feel free to name the ArbCom as a party to this case and, if called for, to issue yourselves an admonishment. Since we don't do due process here, no one can say that would be out of place, although you may be liable to further discipline from Jimbo Wales and the community. Please note that nothing I've said here assumes the guilt of OrangeMarlin, FT2, other ArbCom members or the ArbCom as a whole. I don't like to say another person is guilty unless I know all the facts first and, usually, given the other person an opportunity to defend himself. Noroton (talk) 15:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Giggy notes that Orangemarlin has now issued a general apology. I don't think that's enough, by itself, to avoid opening this case, for the reasons given above. Noroton (talk) 15:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:Merzbow

All I've got to say is whatever the outcome of this drama, I implore the committee to continue their work on the other (legitimately-brought) cases and motions that are currently up for their attention. Calls from some quarters to freeze everything and to even disband the committee are irresponsible in the extreme; the business of the Project must go on, and in many places it's not doing that, pending the outcome of said cases and motions. - Merzbow (talk) 03:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:NE2

I also agree with GRBerry. It is clear that Orangemarlin is a problematic editor, and, while leaving the existing decision in force might have the same effect on him, it would be better for ArbCom to at least vote normally on the decision, if not open a full case. --NE2 03:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Badger Drink

  1. FT2 goes off and tries to pass off what is basically a well-written, if factually suspect, persuasive essay of his own as a nem cot decision from ArbCom.
  2. Krill states that FT2's actions had "no authority or binding weight whatsoever".
  3. Charles states, "The parties and other interested editors are invited submit their views within 48 hours regarding whether the case should be accepted, following which the arbitrators will then vote on-wiki on acceptance or rejection." (emphasis mine)
  4. Charles votes, two hours after making the above statement.
  5. Flonight is rather confused.

Simply put, maybe the ArbCom should get its own act together before worrying about potentially unbecoming table manners.

Should this case be accepted (and, let's face it, with Mr. Charles Matthew's wording here (specifically the last sentence of item number two), it's painfully clear that no matter what the community presents, ArbCom seems to have already made up their own minds whether or not to accept the case), I would strongly urge the committee to rename the case to "FT2-OM". To once again borrow a phrase FT2 wrote in the evidence he compiled and used in the original nem cot "decision", "Actions that . . . deny effective recourse to dispute resolution . . . are completely unacceptable". By his own statement, taken in the exact context in which it was written, FT2's actions were "completely unacceptable", and I don't think a "strong urging" - or even the dreaded "admonishment" - will somehow magically right this wrong. To call this case "Orangemarlin" without mention of FT2's utterly unacceptable actions seems to point to a case in danger of becoming merely an examination of Mr. OrangeMarlin's poor table manners, with FT2 "reminded", largely as an obligatory afterthought, to use and/or read the fucking ArbCom mailing list the next time he gets the urge to pull a Paul Benjamin. And such a case will be akin to having all available firefighters working to coax a kitten down from a tree while a thousand-acre firestorm is diligently engulfing the firehouse. I strongly urge the ArbCom to turn its focus inwards, and use this case as an opportunity to examine the actions of its own membership - most obviously FT2, but in all likelihood (barring FT2's complete disregarding of hypothetical emails saying quite clearly, in plain and simple English, "hang on"), there was a thick layer of complacency in all sitting members for letting this mockery of process come to pass. --Badger Drink (talk) 04:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:Sceptre

What GRBerry said. Sceptre 09:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Dragons flight

What a mess.

I haven't studied OrangeMarlin in detail, but several times in the past I have noticed his actions contributing to what I felt was a toxic working environment. The examples I recall are mostly older and almost entirely independent of the evidence that FT2 chose to cite. I don't know OM's motivation, and I won't claim to know whether he was intentionally being counter-productive or merely acting without recognizing that there might be more productive ways of dealing with others. That said, I think FT2's now-vacated "remedies" for OM were more or less right on target. Specifically, I think OM probably could benefit from having an experienced mentor with a strong voice (preferably one who comes from outside OM's normal areas of editing).

So, I am in the awkward position of thinking there is a real issue here that could be positively addressed in more or less the manner FT2 suggested, but at the same time I believe that FT2 obviously botched the handling of this issue. Given the totality of recent events, I am of a mixed mind about whether an Arbcom case at this point makes sense. From a traditionalist perspective it is probably premature in that other efforts to address the disputed behavior have not really been completed. (For example, OM might be open to mentorship even without all this formality.) I also have trouble thinking that OM deserves quite this amount of singular attention. OM's actions do not exist in a vacuum and there are any number of other editors around OM that could justifiably earn at least an "admonishment".

If FT2 had merely proposed this case with the kinds of arguments he offered, it probably would be proper to decline pending further efforts at dispute resolution. However, the bell has already been rung, and everything has already been tainted. Honestly, I'm not at all sure what to do about that. Personally, I think trying to delay the issue at this point probably would be worse than pressing forward with an FT2-OM arbitration (whose scope would probably need to include addressing the appropriateness of FT2's behavior as well). If this does move forward, I would expect FT2 to at least stand recused as that is fairly common when arbitrators are themselves the major framers of the evidence in a case. Dragons flight (talk) 10:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment from Moreschi

Now I think about this some more, Future Perfect and Alex Bakharev are correct. You, arbitrators, have no business hearing this case, and even if you did, you have more important things to worry about. The matter of OrangeMarlin is something relatively minor: we, the community, can probably sort that out ourselves. Unless you want us to sort the FT2/your credibility issue out ourselves - which I don't think you do - I recommend focussing on that (hint: kick him out). Moreschi (talk) (debate) 10:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Jesus Christ. I don't believe this. FT2, OrangeMarlin was doing nothing SO evil that you had to appoint yourself backdoor judge, jury, and executioner. He did nothing SO evil that there was any need to forbid him from submitting his defense. Are you completely incapable of understanding this very simple point? You are? Then resign. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 09:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment from Gnixon

Yes, obviously take this case---the community should be ashamed that Orangemarlin has been allowed to continue his behavior for so long. Provide a double dose of due process so there'll be no question of its legitimacy. Including Wales and ArbCom alumni might be helpful. It is critical that you separate this new case from complaints about ArbCom and process in the previous one. Gnixon (talk) 13:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: I sincerely applaud OM's recent display of contrition (see Giggy's link below). However, ArbCom should seriously consider the concept of voluntary cessation in the context of mootness. OM's statement sounds sincere to me, but he has been insincere on the same subject before. Gnixon (talk) 17:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
EVIDENCE: GRBerry asked me to provide evidence of prior "insincerity" in OM's promises to be civil. Here is an example from his interaction with me:
2 April 2007: I complained to OM about him accusing me of being a creationist in order to discredit my editing at Evolution. He responded by calling me a "whiny little creationist." After I complained at AN/I, admin IrishGuy warned him about WP:CIV, and OM promised to "keep the commentary to self."
13 January 2008: OM reverted an edit of mine at Evolution, then left an extremely rude message on the talk page, reframing the basis of my edit as "two Creationist editors gently masturbating each other into some religious glory." In fact, my edit was based on a long discussion with at least 5 other regular editors of the article, and it was soon reinstated by someone else. After I complained at WQA, where many others agreed OM's continuing incivility was unacceptable, he agreed to be "a bit more circumspect in language" (with respect to me).
In the WQA discussion, it was made clear that Orangemarlin had been warned repeatedly about incivility and edit warring. (A few examples here by violetriga, here by IrishGuy, as mentioned above, and here by TimVickers.)
Granted, these incidents refer mainly to his unfulfilled promises to be civil toward one user (me), but I believe they cast at least some doubt on his promise to be civil toward everyone. Gnixon (talk) 21:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Giggy

Per Orangemarlin's statement there is no need for arbitration at this time. —Giggy 14:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

FT2's comment disappoints me as it has disappointed quite a few below. I urge ArbCom to not take an Orangemarlin case (per above statement) but to seriously consider their internal affairs. —Giggy 09:03, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:Arthur Rubin

Agree with Giggy, but would like to add that the ArbComm cannot hear the case if they accept it, until the actions leading to the (now withdrawn) ruling are considered, and appropriate recusals are made. In the real world, a tainted court decision would have to be heard by a higher court, or by a randomly appointed panel of "judges" at the next level below. A tainted (by conflict of interest) legislative decision would either be void, or, if a decision must be made, a randomly selected quorum would be chosen to hear the case. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Considering FT2's statement, he must be removed from ArbComm and all relevant (closed) mailing lists and IRC channels before the case can be discussed by the ArbComm. This is outragous. I would have been willing to let this go if he had had a plausible statement. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:Keeper76

Per OrangeMarlin's statement with good faith promises to "play nice", as linked per Giggy, there is no need for arbitration at this time. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

This is regarding FT2's post directly below mine: FT2, I agree with Jimsch that your post rings hollow. At best, its deflection. A core principal of Misplaced Pages, as you know, is AGF. I've been a "victim" of O-Marlin's "tactics", and still, I was able to find a way to see eye to eye with him without vindicativeness, retribution, or RFAR. Imagine that, two human beings sorting it out. Your post, directly below mine, is rife with Bad Faith, and I know you know better because you are an excellent, highly respected, and proficient wikipedian. I'm at a loss about this at this point - unless I've missed it, you've made no attempt to atone for your slight against another Wikipedian, regardless of his/her faults, and you seem to want to continue to malign said editor. Again, I have no explanation, no anything. I'm at a loss, because I know you to be respected and respectable. Your actions in the last few days have rocked my faith in what Wikipedians will do for each other vs. what they will do to each other. Link anything to me that shows me, on wiki, that you've admitted to making an error (you obviously have - the community has already spoken on that), or that you're being misunderstood. I don't condone OM's behavrior, I reiterate. I learned in Kindergarten though the platinum rule of "Two Wrongs Don't Make It Right". Again, I'm at a loss as to why you continue to slander (I don't use that term lightly) another Wikipedian. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 22:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by FT2

I am not sure that I am in any way a filing party, though I can certainly sign off on the case if requested. More "Amicus Curiae in a previous presentation of the same concerns" maybe.

As for Orangemarlin himself, he wasn't proposed to be murdered or banned. He was proposed to be rather forcibly required to act appropriately and to cease some extremely harmful and habitual conduct of a particularly unacceptable kind, that he was undertaking on an almost weekly basis against other users who were paying the cost. He also has an evidenced habit that strong correction leads to gaming too (victimhood, denial, indications of change) which he goes back on. Indifferent of what others may have done, that is his own pattern. It is evidenced numerous times, originated by him and used against others, via smears, slurs, presumption, defamation, block-solitciting, edit-war gaming, likely NPOV gaming, civility gaming, refusing to get the point, and apparently a wide range of the inappropriate behaviors and tendentious strategies I am aware of. And then claiming to be emotionally hurt by others and only wanting them to stop when challenged, or affecting not to hear or want to know, only to repeat again. /Evidence stopped listing the editors he had done this to or tried to, after a while. There were too many.

FT2  21:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Ncmv's Request and Question to FT2, and Question for the Committee

Yes, you are requested to do so. There's no doubt that there've been major problems with the way OrangeMarlin has conducted himself, and also in the way he's dealt with concerns (particularly by third-parties) regarding that conduct.

But in your evidence, you yourself have stated that there are other users who have engaged in this same conduct; several of whom, I imagine, are directly involved (rather than in completely separate disputes). So my question is - why had/have you limited the name of this case to OrangeMarlin exclusively when there are also problems with those other users directly involved (including Odd Nature)?

While the Committee expressed the desire (in the previous relevant request for arbitration) to be less broader in scope after RFC, why hesitate into looking into the conduct of all those directly and/or personally involved? To date, this is a matter that the community have (continually) failed to effectively deal with. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Jim62sch

  • First this case seems to have been brought by the Arbcomm itself, thus creating substantial conflict of interest problem. This should be clear to everyone here as it is far too blatant to be missed. And this COI issue is far more severe than a COI issue wherein a person hasedited their own article.
  • Second, for those out for blood, two things: OM's behaviour has noticably change and no longer requires even an RFC much less a tainted RfAr; there is no damned ID cabal, no matter how much you try to convince yourself that there is.
  • Third, until FT2 is sanctioned/censured/booted/desysopped or whatever there is absolutely no way any objective person will respect the Arbcomm's decision. The Arbcomm, per (or because of?) Charles Matthews, appears to wish to rush this case through with an utterly unwarranted time constraint, yet appears to be willing to delay judgment (and at this point, judgment (summarily administered?) appears to be the modus operandi of the Arbcomm) of FT2. This is simply unacceptable.
  • Fourth, should this entire issue not be handled with transparency, propriety and due process and proportion, and without any appearance of a conflict of interest I fear that Misplaced Pages's reputation will be severely damaged. I also fear that many of our best editors will leave in disgust. Is this what we want for Misplaced Pages? I hope not. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Note to FT2 -- your comments ring hollow to me, and I hope to others. Deflection is not a valid defense, especially for actions I (and others as stated in various places on Misplaced Pages) find indefensible. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Note to Gnixon -- mootness? Are we all supposed to read lawbooks and hurtle various accusations at each other? Or would that be "wikilawyering" to the nth degree?
To repeat, this RfAr is flawed in execution, flawed because it is out of process, flawed because much of the evidence is old as to be belied by more recent (and more relevant) evidence, and flawed because it is apparent that the arbitration process is broken. Focussing on old hatred is a detriment to Misplaced Pages, as one loses focus of the most important issue: "the arbitration process is broken". &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:24, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement by ElC

FT2 stonewalling:

FT2's statement is simply unacceptable. I find it astonishing that he fails, at this decisive juncture, to respond to the key question: what made this case so exceptional so that it demanded, not only secrecy, but also leaving the accused without a defense; i.e. the accused having any knowledge of the proceeding prior to a verdict(!) — FT2 also fails to address (no response as of now) that the Committee formal appeal mechanism (Jimmy Wales) also objects to the process behind RfAr/Orangemarlin, apparently authored solely by FT2 and supported by unnamed.

Crisis of confidence:

No, as Morsechi correctly surmises, the OM case is not at all that exceptional so that vital principles, basic tenants of justice, can be discarded — no such urgency was present, it's merely a case about misconduct via incivility, mostly. It's axiomatic that having a secret trial (with no defense permitted to or knowledge of the accused) on the basis of avoiding melodrama is a critically flawed approach, one that, unsurprisingly, leads to more melodrama. The amount of tension brought by this highly discreditable act has greatly eroded confidence in the Committee as a body (save perhaps individual members Josh, Flo, and Kiril), at a time where such an erosion was already a pressing issue.

Fragmented discussion:

Voluminous discussion has since fragmented onto multiple pages: Talk:RfAr/Orangemarlin, RfC/Arbitration Committee (talk), and AN/Orangemarlin . To now propose an open case focused on OM, while asking us to shut our eyes to FT2gate is a slap in our collective faces, and I think several members of the Committee really do suffer from excess hubris if they think all of this is even, remotely, sustainable.

Higher court:

I am beginning to realize that we need an independent ombudsman (not one appointed by and subservient to the Committee, as with the current Appeals effort — such a process works against an independent appeals process), but one with the power to over-rule it, for example, in exceptional cases such as this. Although Jimmy Wales is, formally, such a mechanism, and although he issued statements (first, second) that should have inspired a bit more openness, if not humility, on FT2 (and co.)'s part, such a task is probably too great for just one individual.

At its limits:

One thing is key: seeing the narrowness of FT2's statement, it is becoming apparent that the Committee is unable to solve this one on its own. El_C 22:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by KillerChihuahua

I am appalled by FT2s statement. I do not believe FT2 is obtuse; therefore I must conclude that he is attempting to rationalize and deflect any concerns about his actions, which (as it cannot have escaped his notice) are of far greater concern to most of the community at this juncture than OrangeMarlin's actions. To repeat with such vitriol and hostility the extreme claims from the discredited summary, given that much of the evidence is now under strong question, and given OrangeMarlin's statement, is to exacerbate and escalate any concerns that I (and no doubt others) have about FT2's ability to view this particular matter with any clarity whatsoever. FT2 seems completely unaware that his actions have caused any distress to the community at all; to ignore that compounds the original error and deepens the problem. KillerChihuahua 23:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Jenny

Using my old username to post this because the page appears to be semiprotected and User:RegenerateThis is too new

Let's take a step back. At this stage, any case opened by the Committee will be perceived by many editors of good faith as tainted by railroading or something equally horrible.

Orangemarlin's alleged conduct problems may be serious and chronic, but they're not so urgent that they must be dealt with immediately. Even if most of the Committee is convinced that he is incorrigible, this has come as a bit of a bolt out of the blue to the majority of the community (who don't know Orangemarlin but have certainly heard the rumblings about arbcom over the weekend).

So, let's do this cautiously and carefully. I recommend that the Committee punt this one back to the community. An RFC will help to give the problem more of a definitive shape in the eyes of the community, and the feedback may be useful in giving the Committee a better feel for how these alleged conduct problems are regarded by the community at large. If a satisfactory resolution cannot be found, then the Committee is always there to take it up. ----Jenny 23:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by AniMate

I hate to pile on, but I think its necessary. Along with many others, I have lost faith in the ArbCom, and FT2's comment has only exacerbated my discomfort with the committee. Despite their undoubtedly good intentions, this case is less about OrangeMarlin and more about the missteps that lead to this situation. Unfortunately, there are indications that the committee intends to hide behind the privacy of their mailing list to obfuscate their failings in regards to the handling of this case.

Will the community accept any decision handed out in regards to OrangeMarlin after the events of the past couple of days? Not unless we are shown clearly and honestly what happened to lead FT2 to believe he the authority to implement sanctions against a user in good standing without letting that user respond or defend himself. Failing that, then I agree with El C that some outside counsel or ombudsman is needed to handle such cases as this, as it has become clear that the ArbCom cannot do so. AniMate 23:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Odd nature

As one of the two editors FT2 imposed his personal sanctions on, I feel FT2's recent disregard for both the community and it's sensibilities and his original breach of public trust proves he is not a responsible member of the Arbitration Committee or the community; however, he is a good candidate for arbitration.

The utter incivility of FT2's one-man RFAR far exceeds whatever incivility it was meant to address and caused an order of magnitude more damage to the community than OrangeMarlin ever did or could have.

Then there's the matter of the personal disruption, embarrassment and frustration he caused OrangeMarlin and me, for which FT2 has failed to apologize. And FT2 failed to take any responsibility for his actions when the Arbcom gave him the chance. Read his statement above: FT2 continues to dodge any accountability for causing this mess. FT2's original misrepresentations and current lack of accountability show he cannot or is unwilling to live up to the level of responsibility and accountability that his position on the Arbitration Committee demands.

If FT2 won't take responsibility then the Arbcom must be responsible for him. You need to take the appropriate steps to restore the community's trust in your institution. The community has lost all confidence in FT2 and is on the verge of loosing it for you. The way you handle this case will influence how the community responds to you next time.

FT2 should do the right thing and step down from the Arbcom and spare the community more disruption. If he doesn't he needs to be removed: the nature and extent of his breach of the public trust demands nothing less.

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

NOTE: This RFAR was opened per ruling of the arbcom. See statement here: Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Orangemarlin#Arbitrator_views_and_discussion. — Rlevse • Talk • 16:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Response to B-given this is an unusal case, I am not aware of "prior dispute resolution", though there may well be some. If there were, please whoever knows of this, fill in the section. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
There was an RFC opened on the ArbCom, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee‎. Does that count? hbdragon88 (talk) 18:51, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a RFAR on OM's incivility and poor behavior. It is merely granting his request to provide a defense to the previous secret case. I don't think this about ArbCom or FT2, so no, that isn't relevant. --Dragon695 (talk) 18:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
FT2 is listed as an involved party however, meaning that it's purely not just abuot OM. hbdragon88 (talk) 19:28, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
The filing party is always listed as a party per convention. Orderinchaos 19:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a VERY unique case, but I guess listing FT2 is, based on what I know at the moment, the 'filing party'. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
It's a rather artificial situation where CM has filed the case with FT2's evidence brief, so he's the de facto filing party. Very confusing. Orderinchaos 08:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Due to my clerk actions for this case coming under fire the first time around, I think it is for the best if another clerk takes this case if it is accepted by the committee. John Vandenberg 00:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/4/0/0)

  • Question for initiating party, FT2. Arbitration cases are the last step in the dispute resolution process. Were the parties in the case contacted by the initiating party in an attempt to discuss concerns about their conduct? If not, is this not premature? FloNight♥♥♥ 22:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
(I want to clarify if any communication happened between the FT2 and the other parties. I know that they were not aware of an arbitration case, but I was unsure if any communication has occurred on any level such as emails, IRC, or Skype as it is unusual for a party to initiate a case against someone they've never had any direct contact.) FloNight♥♥♥ 23:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I've not seen any emails from of any user contacting arbcom asking for a case. I'll look again. These are points I want clarified. FloNight♥♥♥ 23:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Clarifications and other requests

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Request for appeal: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by ChrisO

I wish to appeal a page ban applied by Elonka after I removed an obvious copyright, BLP and NPOV violation from an article. The background is as follows:

  • Muhammad al-Durrah (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) concerns a controversy that is currently the subject of libel litigation in France as well as an off-wiki campaign that accuses several individuals of criminal and professional misconduct. Personal abuse like this and death threats have been directed against some of those involved. I have monitored the article for BLP reasons since April 2007.
  • On 10 June, Elonka stepped in to mediate, impose editing restrictions and lift protection. I fully accept that I overstepped the restrictions on a couple of occasions through sheer frustration, as noted by Elonka.,,.
  • On 13 June, Julia1987 posted unsourced allegations on the article talk page that an individual mentioned in the article was a drug dealer who had been attacked by a drug gang. WP:BLP requires the removal of "unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material" from talk pages and articles. I therefore redacted them and asked Julia1987 not to post unsourced allegations in future.
  • On 14 June, Julia1987 made a series of edits in which she deleted some sourced material and added essentially the same allegations, this time sourced to this pirate web video, undated, unsourced, translated by an unknown individual, on a video sharing website. Julia1987's edits stated the allegations as proven facts.
  • WP:BLP requires that "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that ... relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability". WP:COPY requires that "if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work". Elonka's own restrictions state that "If something is added that is unsourced, that is obviously troublesome (such as very biased or potentially untrue), it can be deleted on the spot."
  • I therefore removed Julia1987's problematic additions and restored the deleted material. In hindsight my edit summary was poorly written and did not make sufficiently clear that the removed material was a BLP and copyright violation. As WP:BLP mandates that "The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals" (by extension the same would apply to a 0RR regime), I did not consider this to be a revert. I did not revert to a previous version, as I retained Julia1987's and another editor's non-problematic additions. (See User talk:Elonka#Sequence of edits).
  • I was shocked and surprised to find on 15 June that Elonka had banned me for one week from the article's talk page and thirty days from the article itself. Elonka has since restricted Julia1987 for deleting sourced content in the same series of edits as the BLP/copyright violation .
  • I have since unsuccessfully sought to resolve this with Elonka on her talk page. Elonka has argued that my edit was an impermissible reversion and constituted "edit-warring", but has not acknowledged any of the NPOV, BLP or copyright issues that I have raised. Misplaced Pages's BLP and copyright rules cannot be overridden by an individual admin's restrictions, and an admin-imposed 0RR cannot supersede the long-standing rule that the removal of BLP violations is not counted towards reversions. Elonka's action has the unfortunate effect of penalising a good-faith effort to remove material that indisputably violates BLP, COPY and NPOV. This risks sending a message to editors that BLP doesn't matter and attempts to uphold it will be penalised.

I would therefore be grateful for outside views on this matter. Please note that I fully support Elonka's mediation efforts; this unfortunate misunderstanding should not be taken as criticism of the rest of her work on the article. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

In response to Elonka's comment below, I couldn't source Julia1987's allegations to anything other than the pirate video, an unusable source which had to be removed. BLP requires us to reliably source statements about living people ("Be very firm about the use of high quality references"). It wasn't possible to remove the unusable source while leaving in place an unsupported, potentially libelous claim - that would have been a BLP violation in my part. The only recourse was to remove the claim and the unusable source. I'm also not sitting this out because of the unresolved BLP issue and the chilling effect Elonka's action is likely to have on any future efforts to ensure that BLP is followed. We need a clear statement on whether or not editing restrictions can override BLP and copyright enforcement. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:11, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be some confusion over which edit prompted the page-ban. Elonka page-banned me for making this edit. The BLP violation I removed was this bit (the bolded text is that which was added by User:Julia1987, unbolded article text is previously existing material which I didn't remove)):
Muhammad's father claim he was severely wounded in the same incident and was treated in hospital in Jordan for multiple bullet wounds.<ref name="Tierney">Tierney, Michael. ''Glasgow Herald'', August 23, 2003</ref> However, scars that were supposedly caused by the Israeli gun-fire, were not left by bullets. Instead, they're the same scars identified by an Israeli doctor who treated Jamal after he was attacked by a Palestinian gang armed with axes. <ref> Ch. 10, April 29, 2008 </ref>"
This makes the father out to be a liar, it states a purely anecdotal claim made by an interviewee in the report as fact, no other reliable source that I know of has made that claim, it's sourced to a Youtube-style video hosting site (ergo, a probable copyvio), and the reliability of the source was essentially unknowable since at the time I knew of no original copy of the video. The source was unusable and the information in it uncorroborated. It would be appreciated if arbitrators could address whether this is a BLP and probable copyright violation and if so, whether removing it was reasonable. -- ChrisO (talk) 10:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Eternalsleeper

I've been watching these discussions from afar, as I'm way too busy with RL to contribute to Misplaced Pages on a solid base. Elonka has been reasonable and helpful in moving the page forward, though it would be even more helpful if people stopped making sarcastic and pejorative comments on the talk page, directly and indirectly calling each other's position into ideological questioning. I haven't been following up on the page with enough persistence to make any further comment but I felt a vote of confidence in Elonka's efforts was due. Eternalsleeper (talk) 22:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Elonka

Personally I think that ChrisO is wasting his time here, but this appeal might actually benefit from an ArbCom review, as a few editors have been sharply critical of the conditions for editing that I placed on this article. So I wouldn't mind hearing from ArbCom as to whether or not I have been working in accordance with the Discretionary Sanctions that they envisioned in January. To describe the situation in a nutshell: ChrisO, an admin who was participating as an involved editor, was edit-warring at the Muhammad al-Durrah article, which is within the scope of the Palestine-Israel articles ArbCom discretionary sanctions, and had been in a state of dispute for quite awhile. I, as an uninvolved admin (and member of the ArbCom-appointed Working Group on ethnic and cultural edit wars), decided to take a look at the situation, and chose to place a civility and 0RR (no revert) restriction on the article. Most editors complied, but ChrisO kept reverting. Since he's an admin, I tried to give him lots of leeway, but it's obvious that he felt that the restrictions were for other people, and not for him, and he kept on with warring and incivility, such as referring to loony conspiracy theories. So I gave him a steadily increasing set of cautions. After his second revert, I told him clearly that if he did one more, he risked being put on tighter restrictions. The next day, he reverted again, with a misleading edit summary of "blatant POV pushing" (his edit summary didn't describe it as a revert, but it was clear that he had cleanly wiped out 8 intervening edits, back to his own last version.) I then put him on (what I felt was) a mild ban of avoiding the talkpage for one week, and avoiding edits to the article for one month. He immediately started wikilawyering with multiple messages to my talkpage about why he was allowed to revert, and then he came up with this after-the-fact "BLP" angle, saying that it excuses his total revert. I disagree. The case is pretty simple as far as I'm concerned, and has nothing to do with BLP. ChrisO was edit-warring, he was told to stop, he didn't, I put a brief page ban on him.

I would also like to point out that when I first learned of the situation, the article was already protected, the talkpage was in the middle of a severe dispute, and ChrisO was begging for an uninvolved administrator to help out. When I offered my assistance, he said it would be appreciated. I am proud to say that since I placed my conditions on the article on June 10, the article has become much more stable, with some very constructive conversations going on at the talkpage. And all of this was accomplished with no blocks and no page protection. Instead, three editors (two new editors, and ChrisO) were placed on temporary bans (see our admin log), and everyone else is back to work. I acted in the best interest of the project, and got rapid control of a situation that was in near chaos, with only very minor course corrections on my part. I wish that ChrisO could recognize that my system works. That he is continuing to escalate and is now trying to spin this as a BLP issue, is disappointing. There were many ways that he could have edited the article to remove anything that he found problematic, by changing the text rather than just reverting. It is also disappointing that he's going to the trouble of filing what will probably be a lengthy appeal, which will probably take weeks to resolve. I had pointed out to him that an easier route would be to simply avoid the talkpage for the rest of the week (until June 22), and then if he resumed participation in a civil and constructive manner, that I would consider lifting the article editing ban early, rather than requiring that he sit out the full 30 days. I've already done this with one of the other editors, Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs), who had been banned for 90 days. We instructed him to work on other articles for awhile, and he did, so we lifted his talkpage ban to allow him to resume discussions. But evidently ChrisO would rather stir things up here at ArbCom for a few weeks, rather than just waiting until the weekend to participate at talk, so here we are. --Elonka 23:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Carcharoth

Just a brief comment here. Elonka's system is interesting, and is in fact similar to what I have advocated elsewhere. I'm glad to see that some of these (rather obvious) ideas are at least being put into practice. I am concerned though that sometimes it can end up looking like some individuals (in this case Elonka) are the gatekeepers for the article. To avoid this, I suggest a system of rotation, whereby the uninvolved admins move on to different areas and different articles every few months. This will ensure things do not go stale, that grudges do not fester and build up, and that the admins involved get a fresh look on different articles rather than deal with the same things over and over again (ie. avoid burn out). This would also address the perennial question of whether admins are truly uninvolved and committed. If the admins in question are uninvolved, then they will not mind moving on a different article every few months. Possibly all this has been suggested elsewhere. If not, please do pass it on to whatever board is considering these things this month. :-) Carcharoth (talk) 23:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


Statement by Canadian Monkey

Elonka has done a commendable job of stepping into a controversial article and, through the imposition of strict editing conditions, eliminated edit warring while allowing for continuous improvement of the article. As she notes, ChrisO was given plenty of warning about his behavior, and much more leeway was given to him (presumably because of his status as an admin) than to other editors, who were subjected to similar sanctions for behavior that was, in my opinion, much less disruptive than ChrisO’s. He has clearly edit warred on the page, and reverted on multiple occasions, despite being notified of both the 0RR restrictions and the general ArbCom decision related to I-P articles.

The "BLP" issue is a Red herring. As Elonka notes, ChrisO came up with the "BLP" angle after the fact, and used it as an excuse for a revert that encompassed much more than any potential BLP issues. I’d like to highlight he fact that this is apparently a common modus operandi with ChrisO. On May 23rd, he was reported for a 3RR violation by an uninvolved editor on the same article (prior to the recent restrictions and Elonka’s involvement). He did not claim he was reverting BLP issues in any of his 5 reverts, 3 of which consisted of removing "Category:Violence in media", which is clearly pure edit warring over a content issue that has nothing to do with BLP. But once the 3RR report was filed, he suddenly came up with the "BLP" angle, to excuse his behavior ex post facto, and without pointing to any actual BLP issues that his reverts were aimed at.

His behavior on this article has been problematic from the get go. He has abused his admin privileges by posting warning notifications on the Talk pages of all those who opposed him, even though he was an involved admin. This behavior was found problematic by several uninvolved admins (, ,) and he was told it was improper (though not sanctioned for it).

Unable to get consensus for his views on the Talk page of the article, he has engaged in egregious forum shopping, seeking to get his opponents banned or otherwise sanctioned and his own actions vindicated, on no fewer than 6 different venues: , , , , , . In fact, this most recent appeal follows on the heels of yet another appeal, his 7th (!!) this time here, after he had been told by the responding admin that “I would tread on the cautious side and say that if it's not obvious, then note it to someone else and let others do it, if 0RR applies to one of the editors involved.”

Given this extremely disruptive behavior, the length of time it has been going on, and the fact that similar behavior has been exhibited on other articles as well (see this, for example, where he has blocked an editor with whom he has an active content dispute) – I think that ChrisO got off extremely lightly (a 30 day ban from a single article), and that a more appropriate sanction would be a topic ban, from all I-P related articles, for a substantially longer time period.

Statement by Tarc

I find it rather hard to believe that, in the name of "mediation", one administrator can simply ignore policy and guidelines on NPOV and BLP and such. All edits and/or reverts are not created equal; if someone edits in violation of Misplaced Pages policy, to sanction someone else for addressing and removing such violations is a serious error in judgment. Mediating in this or any I-P related article is a thankless task that few if any have the time, patience, or willingness to undertake, and Elonka should be commended for taking a stab at a difficult task. But a bit more flexibility is called for here, and a hard "no reverts ever" is simply bad practice and completely unworkable.

Statement by JGGardiner

Like everyone else, I have to say that Elonka has done a wonderful job on the talk page. This was definitely a mop and bucket job. I can see how the editing conditions may seem a little draconian but the alternatives are worse.

When I first read Chris' statement I thought it did raise an interesting policy question: can editing restrictions override our policy restrictions. But, having looked everything over once again, I'm not sure that there is an actual policy difference here. Elonka's conditions seem to have exclusions that go far beyond just BLP: "If something is added that is unsourced, that is obviously troublesome (such as very biased or potentially untrue), it can be deleted on the spot." Chris’ initial arguments seem to be that his edit was within the limits of Elonka’s restrictions. I think this is just a simple disagreement over the nature of Chris' particular edit.

Chris does acknowledge that he did not adequately construct his summary. If he did alter content beyond what was necessary to satisfy BLP concerns, it is easy to see why Elonka would have felt this was a reversion in violation of the editing conditions.

I am sympathetic to Chris’ feelings. I think that his general concern was having the article within policy. But I think that an admin in Elonka’s position would have had to have given Chris the benefit of the doubt to think that his edit was not a reversion. And at that point nobody on the talk page deserved such a benefit. --JGGardiner (talk) 12:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Kelly

I fully endorse Elonka's actions - as someone who tried to make a foray into this article as an uninvolved party, I can testify that a firm hand is needed in handling this article. ChrisO's behavior has been problematic at times, as Elonka states (particularly his continual use of derogatory terms like "conspiracy theories" to describe other viewpoints; I believe this provokes other editors into inappropriate actions). This is not to say that the editing of his "opponents" has not also been problematic. But, as an experienced user, ChrisO should know better. Frankly, I'm impressed with how Elonka has handled the situation, and feel this approach should be used with other contentious articles. No ArbCom action needed here. Kelly 14:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Further comment on ban of User:Tundrabuggy

Based on the user's comments below, I guess I would ask why Tundrabuggy's sanction was so much more severe than ChrisO's, for what seems to be a much lighter offense. If anything, Tundrabuggy should have gotten more leniency than ChrisO, given that Tundrabuggy is relatively new and ChrisO is, and has been, well aware of editing practices here. Kelly 02:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by WJBscribe

This seems to be about the imposition of a fairly routine discretionary sanction as provided for by the remedies in the case in question. If someone thinks an administrator erred in imposing such a sanction, their first avenue of redress is surely to seek input from other administrators, say by raising the matter at WP:AN/I and establishing a consensus that the application of the sanction should be reversed. I don't think the Arbitration Committee's input is needed unless the community is unable to resolve the matter, or clarification of the remedy is needed. Neither appears to be the case here. The Committee will waste a lot of time if they're to agree to provide "first instance" review of every discretionary sanction imposed by an administrator. I think other avenues of redress should be explored first. WjBscribe 15:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Penwhale

I think the problematic part is the fact that some people would read the original wording as only sanctioning AFTER warning, and not to start with blanket 0RR. - Penwhale | 16:10, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Tundrabuggy

As a new user I started my account 28th May and the first article I edited was Muhammad al-Durrah. On June 2, the first external contribution to my talk page was the notification posted by ChrisO without comment or discussion, and logged here: . Until "tidied up" by Moreschi later, the edit read: "notified of the case in relation to single-purpose account editing and promotion of personal views and original research"

Since then I've had a quick lesson in navigating, editing, rules and general "culture" of WP. I believed my half-dozen edits on the article were fair and neutral.

With the recent court decision, the release of the raw footage, and the latest articles, the equation has changed such that to continue to insist that that the opposing viewpoint is "fringe" or "conspiracy theory" becomes not only insulting, but rather a barrier to productive editing. Thus I tried to use neutral terms such as "was reported." This edit, however, became proof of being a 9/11-style thruthers , a sentiment endorsed by Moreschi, at the FTN with this highly POV edit . The following day Moreschi goes to the Admin Noticeboard asking for an uninvolved admin to ban me and Julia1987.

Later (ChrisO (talk) 23:44, 5 June 2008)labels other editors: Canadian Monkey, Gilabrand, & Leifern "... to put it bluntly the SPAs and conspiracy theory advocates are not listening and are attempting to edit-war their view into the article. There is some very blatant soapboxing..."

Elonka stepped in and volunteered to mediate. She was accepted by all including ChrisO. As part of her ongoing mediation, she lifted protection on the article in exchange for some simple edit restrictions.

On June 10th I made the first single-word edit on the newly unprotected article -- "reported" -- and was surprised by a 90 day edit-ban on both article and talk page by previously uninvolved admin MZMcBride Elonka asks for reconsideration: and suggesting the ban is excessive, explains her rationale:

I didn't challenge my ban until discovering ChrisO had received a much lighter restriction despite numerous warnings. Indeed, one might suppose he could have been expected, as an administrator and experienced editor, to have required fewer warnings, to have been held to a higher standard than I.

MZMcBride said of my ban of three months: "There truly isn't any need for this level of discussion for something so minor."

If three months is acceptable for one party in a mediated dispute, how is a week and one month from the article so egregious? I believe that ChrisO abused his administrative powers to shoe-horn his POV into this article, and is now trying to break an agreed-upon mediation. He should accept the mediator's decision(s) in good spirit, and abide by them. To me the terms seem generous, and I think he could use his time to consider his own behavior in regard to this article, rather than trying to find fault in the behavior of others. Tundrabuggy (talk) 20:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Concerning the issue of what ChrisO refers to as "ongoing litigation" in his statement. There is currently no ongoing litigation. Until and unless France 2 takes this to the Supreme Court, the issue has been decided. On the point of BLP, the latest court decision says of the main figure in this controversy (Charles Enderlin) that in his position "he inevitably and knowingly exposes himself to more careful scrutiny," and that he "admitted that the film, ... perhaps did not correspond to his commentary" "and the statements procured by the cameraman ... cannot be found truly credible neither in their presentation nor in their substance..." and in regard to the wounds of the father: "the lack of probative value of the photographs of Jamal AL DURA’s wounds." Thus the court has made their statement and to reiterate the substance of the investigations that the court decision used to determine its verdict would not seem to me to be in violation of WP:BLP. Tundrabuggy (talk) 20:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Julia1987

Prior to the ban ChrisO violated 3RR but escaped a block for technical reasons (report filed too late). He intimidated other editors using his admin "rank". His contribution page (prior to the ban) almost all his 500 edits are in one article. (or this request for arbitration plus related talk page - arguing about the ban) --Julia1987 (talk) 18:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Messedrocker

I do not know the background, but let's assume for the sake for the argument that the editing sanctions were rightfully applied. If a removal is done per BLP, and it is recognized as such by the mediator and others, then it is a granted exception to the editorial ban. This has to be a very cut-and-dry case, though, where it is unambiguously in compliance with the ArbCom statement which goes along the lines of "BLP must be enforced at all costs". Otherwise, it is a breach of the ban and should be reverted.

I have no problem with banned ones requesting others to make edits, BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT the proxy editor must acknowledge that they have passed the request through their own judgment and they are willing to be responsible for their edits. That way, it is like proxy editing, but with the benefit of a human filter to prevent bad stuff from going through.

If the editing ban was wrongfully placed, then that's for the ArbCom to deal with.

MessedRocker (talk) 02:12, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Ned Scott

I half expected to see this request when I commented on the issue a little bit ago. I'm not sure on the specifics, but I will say that a blanket no-revert rule on an article, applied to all editors, isn't wise. Sometimes someone will make an edit with no redeeming qualities at all, negatively effecting the article, but without it being vandalism (or a BLP issue). My suggestion to Elonka was to make this restriction more.. restricted. Apply it to certain editors, certain texts, or something that wouldn't debilitate one of our most basic cleanup functions.

This may or may not be an issue yet, and this may or may not apply to ChrisO, but that's my two cents. -- Ned Scott 08:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I find myself agreeing with a number of people here:
    • Firstly, I agree with WJBscribe's comment. The original decision included this remedy, on appeals of discretionary sanctions, providing that appeals could be made to the sanctioning administrator, the relevant admin noticeboard (presently arbitration enforcement) or to the Committee. While the remedy didn't spell it out explicitly, the usual understanding is that one would start with the individual administrator, and then proceed "up" the chain of review from there, with review by the Committee being the last step, if others have not produced a resolution.
    • Secondly, I agree with the substance of what Elonka has said. From what I have seen this does not appear to be a BLP situation, but one of simple edit-warring. Reverting simply so your preferred version can stand (here, with an edit summary of "please let this stand for more than half an hour, OK?") is textbook edit-warring. Policy and practice grant much leeway to people to deal with BLP problems, but they have to have a sound basis for exercising such leeway, and they have to communicate that they think there's a BLP issue when they take action so that other editors understand what they're doing.
    • Thirdly, I agree with Carcharoth's view. Speaking generally, in these types of situations, the appearance of non-involvement is often as important as actual non-involvement. Perhaps, in the light of the increased number of discretionary sanctions remedies the Committee has passed over the last year, it would be worth setting aside a page somewhere to discuss discretionary sanction "best practice": what has worked, what hasn't worked, and so forth.
--bainer (talk) 09:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
  • There are several matters in this clarification: compatibility of 0RR with the case sanction (was Elonka within her rights?) and balancing of that sanction with BLP (if imposed, would 0RR preclude BLP reversion?). A question also exists, per ChrisO's statement, whether the specific item in question is in fact a BLP violation. Quick answers (detail below):
  1. Yes, 0RR is an appropriate choice available to an uninvolved administrator, within the sanctions provided. Elonka has correctly understood both the purpose of the discretion given, and the extent of the tools made available for that purpose, and has applied them following appropriate prior warnings, and with care.
  2. BLP (if a genuine case) would have a very high priority indeed and would override xRR.
    There is a caveat (because BLP is sometimes pushed or gamed for POV removal purposes). The caveat is, a user who claims "BLP-vio!" to do this, takes the chance they could be deemed edit warring unless the case is obvious. "Exceptional claims" (which include the claim "we have to ignore sanctions and restrictions, delete this now, and discuss later") should be accompanied by a good description of the reason that anyone can follow, and by willingness to discuss collaboratively after removal. Where it may not be clear to others, a good talk page description should usually be provided and ideally posted within moments of the edit and noted in the edit summary, so that the two will be seen together by other editors, and so it doesn't get mistaken for edit warring.
  3. The revert by ChrisO does include material that was a clear violation of BLP (negative and unsourced/poorly sourced content). It also included reverting a number of edits that by themselves were not BLP violating, but taken together had a very one-sided negative effect that possibly did meet BLP criteria. (See below: "detail".) I'm willing to accept ChrisO's statement that despite describing it as "POV", this was what made him revert (WP:AGF). A person reverting others' work should be very careful at the best of times not to do so unnecessarily nor to revert valid material (WP:REVERT). This goes double when 0RR is in operation and also when a prior history of warnings for editing conduct has taken place. ChrisO had previously been warned about editing conduct on the article. He then posted a revert of multiple edits to the introduction, with an edit summary "blatant POV-pushing". Some of the reverted material should have been reverted (but on well-explained grounds), some should have been discussed but not reverted -- and a good explanation at that exact time of revert above all should have been given. Especially given the circumstances, he should have made exceptional efforts to be clear. ChrisO did not communicate and the result was a foregone conclusion.
  4. Last, as bainer says (citing WJBScribe), this should probably not be brought here first. This dispute is probably not an RFAR matter (at this time). But now it's here, so be it.
I hope Elonka and ChrisO will talk and sort matters out, having seen first-hand the consequences of this communication issue. It's easy to learn from and both are good editors capable of insight. I note the sanction Elonka chose is reasonable and not excessive, and that Elonka carefully distinguishes talk page and article in her judgement of the handling. Bans and the like are preventative, and ChrisO sounds like he may have done mostly the right thing this case, but with poor and misleading communication, even though in prior instances he was breaching good practice and needed warning. I urge both to re-affirm that they are working together, and to collaborate better, which would make the sanction perhaps less necessary to uphold. But the bottom line is, I feel it's best to leave the final decision in Elonka's hands to decide (she's admining on this dispute area, and is doing it well). My own feeling is that if appropriate and if she feels ChrisO may have now learned from this about the importance of good communication in sensitive, already-restricted areas, she might feel like giving a second chance.
FT2  13:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
More detail.
More detail on the actual points raised:

  • Compatibility of 0RR with the general sanction - The remedy is extremely broad (including "restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary...".) 0RR is a restriction that would apply only to existing or new editors on the article. The aim of an ultra-broad remedy is to get the article back on track however is necessary almost, and to deal with a range of behaviors that need strong action. If an uninvolved administrator feels 0RR/1RR may resolve problems (for example by compelling discussion of all points that become visibly disputed) then that may well be exactly whats needed. If not, we'll find out. Default = trust. If anyone feels that 0RR is a bad idea, it can be appealled (via Elonka as imposing administrator, WP:AE, or the Committee). But so far as I am aware, no claim is made that imposing 0RR per se is a bad admin judgement, or harms the article. Arbitration remedies like this get given only because nothing less seems powerful enough to work, and (provided it is fairly used) to support a strong hand which may actually be what is needed for admins to do their job managing conduct on an article, without being stonewalled.

  • BLP vs. sanctions - A genuinely harmful BLP issue must take priority over most other editorial concerns. If there were a genuine issue with poorly sourced or unsourced material, and it was in a biographical article or shaded negatively towards a living person, I would expect it to be removed. Caveat - I would not expect it edit warred over or gamed.

  • Was the reverted material (despite its revert as "POV") really a genuine BLP violation? - Unequivocably yes, but capable of correction. This is exactly the kind of thing BLP policy was set up to deal with quickly and override other concerns on. Let's look at the case. A living person, the joint subject of an article, has a part of the article saying that medically and factually, an Israeli doctor has examined his scars and they are not bullet scars as he claims ("scars that were supposedly caused by the Israeli gun-fire, were not left by bullets. Instead, they're the same scars identified by an Israeli doctor who treated Jamal after he was attacked by a Palestinian gang armed with axes").

    The article is citing this as fact in Misplaced Pages's voice. Its effect is to discredit the subject of the article. We need a high quality and reliable source to support a claim that roughly speaking this is either 1/ considered the case by the medical world ("they are axe scars"), or 2/ backed by reliable sources ("source X opined that they are axe scars"). We have neither. A google search shows nothing except blogs. There is apparently not one reliable source in Google News. The actual article statement is backed up by a source of no merit whatsoever (a video purporting to be an Israeli TV recording), but no evidence backing this exists in any reliable source I can find. We have no real evidence it was "channel 10" or any Israeli TV channel (much less a reputable one), what its provenance and reliability are. There is a channel ident on the video, but that doesnt matter - I (or any video editing hack) could fake that. A website saying "I am official" doesnt make it official. A video saying "I am channel 10" doesnt make it channel 10. We need a reliable source - ie, provenance - not just a source that claims to be reliable.

    The doctor and hospital are named, and a statement that "In an anonymous video, Doctor X of hospital Y stated that he identified them as surgical scars from an operation he had performed in 1994" would be better. The translation issue is not a problem (we can check it, like any other non-English source.) But note - we still have no reliable source that this is a doctor, or the doctor, or that there was a surgery case as described, or that the interview is of a reliable nature and not tampered, no confirmation that the claims in the video are endorsed by any reliable source, not one reliable independent source refers to any of this at all... all we have is one anonymous video of a person who says they were a doctor in the 1990s holding up an X ray and making a claim. On this basis the introduction states the subject has been in effect, proven untruthful. We need a higher quality source to support such a statement. That is precisely what BLP is for. Dead end.

    Other edits reverted were POV. Whether or not serious doubt exists (it may well), these edits placed this doubt in Misplaced Pages's voice, and implied a negative slant to the bio throughout much of its introduction. Likely ChrisO's version is better in that it cites facts and statements, more neutrally and with less opinioning. In general with one exception NPOV issues do not by themselves reach the standard needed for summary deletion/reversion per BLP, when 0RR is in operation. The exception is when the overall effect is BLP breaching. Here it may well have been, since the introduction had been generally negatively shaded in tone against the subject by these edits.

To sum up, ChrisO has admitted that he was at fault for stepping over previous restrictions. But in removing this item, and persisting, he's on target and has got BLP right, and given it the priority it needs. I put the issue down to communication and forethought rather than anything else, with good points coming out of it to go forward. ChrisO especially could have notified it better, and explained it more on the talk page. It wasn't well explained and was in a contentious area. An exceptional issue may need exceptional communication. Editing a contentious area with poor communication following on from prior breach of restriction is a risky proposition.

In their intentions and the aim of their actions, both were impeccable - Elonka managing the dispute, ChrisO spotting the genuine serious BLP issue and persisting with removing it. The communication and understanding failed. Above average care, and above average communication, are needed on more sensitive contended areas... a person who doesnt, will often have a problem as a result. ChrisO didn't communicate.

FT2  13:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Request for clarification: Scope of the Arbitration Committee to create new policy and process.

Statement by Barberio

Recently, two 'remedies' have been passed by the Arbitration committee that seek to establish new policy and processes affecting en.wikipedia content. This is a both a step beyond their usual remit of only responding to user behaviour issues not content issues, and only recommending that the community develop new policy to address issues.

I can find no part of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration policy that enables the Arbitration committee to do so, and I suggest it goes against the spirit of wiki policy. The exact wording in the Arbitration Policy states that all remedies MUST be in the form of "User X is...". In essence, remedies were intended under the policy to apply to individuals. It has been stretched over time to cover groups, but now it has been stretched far beyond it's original intent.

Again, I must make this clear, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration policy as currently written bars the Arbitration Committee from making remedies that cover more than a single person. I also suggest that those who voted for the Arbitration committee's current make up were not informed, and may not approve, of this extension of the powers of the committee's members.

Can the arbitration committee members please explain to the community 

 * Where the power to mandate these new policies and processes comes from;
 * Why they did not feel the need to consult with the community, or allow for community discussion;
 * How they would react if the community rejects these new processes;
 * and any sanctions on editors they may enforce for failing to accept these new processes.

I would prefer individual, and full explanation of their decisions from each arbitrator. I think it would also be fair to ask the dissenting arbitrators to explain their positions too. I do think this issue is important enough to the way Misplaced Pages is supposed to work, that all arbitrators must explain their actions to the community, beyond a simple 'aye or nay' vote. --Barberio (talk) 12:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

From the weight of opinion being expressed both here and elsewhere, I think I can state that community consensus is forming around the following points -

  • These remedies constitute either new policy, fundamental changes to current policy, or at the very least creation of new processes that must be followed
  • The community wishes to retain primacy in creating policy through consensus unless mandated to assume policy by the foundation
  • The arbitration committee have departed from the original intent of the arbitration policy by moving from remedies targeted at individuals, to remedies targeted at groups and subject matters, to remedies targeted at the entire community.

I welcome, and urge, comment from the Arbitration Committee to address these issues. --Barberio (talk) 19:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by MBisanz

I take this opportunity to point to m:Foundation issues which is a list of issues made by the Wikimedia Foundation that are beyond the debate and alteration of the local communities. Point five reads in part: "The Arbitration Committees of those projects which have one can also make binding, final decisions such as banning an editor."

I therefore submit that if Arbcom is the final binding authority, it may make its decisions however it chooses and may make them as broad or as narrow, as novel or as regular, as it feels necessary. MBisanz 13:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment to Barberio by InkSplotch

I think it's fairly straightforward here...I've never seen anything to suggest the Arbitration policy is either prescriptive or proscriptive. It establishes the remit and scope of ArbCom, and if anything is truly binding the sections Scope and Rules are it. The rest seems fairly descriptive of the process, informing others what to expect. In this case, that particular remedy does follow the "similar to" format described, neither does it violate the scope or rules clauses of their remit. I think you've a bit of an uphill battle here, needing to establish fully that:

  • The aribitration policy is a binding, proscriptive document.
  • That these remedies violate the spirit of the policy.
  • That these remedies are, in fact, new policy themselves.

I've been following the discussions in several places, from the talk page of the Footnotes:Proposed Decision page over to the BLP pages. Personally, I don't like the remedy as written, and fear it's far too open to abuse. Procedurally, I think it belongs more under Principles than Remedies (something I decided on reviewing the BDJ case earlier today) and I wonder if it would have raised as much fuss there (I suspect so). The more I see from current and former arbs, the more I think I understand why they wrote these remedies, and I'm being swayed that they're not actually "new policy." I still think a good bit more effort needed to go into the writing of things to get this point across, and minimize attempts to wiki-lawyer things.

Barberio, I've seen you passionately argue on these topics before. I think you could have some constructive input over on the BLP talk pages. Trying to strike this down as procedural on this page, however, is just plain wiki-lawyering and it won't really fix anything. We might need more discussion before we all understand one another, but the issues here are real and they're not going away. --InkSplotch (talk) 13:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by WAS 4.250

Arbcom rightly has binding authority over behavior disputes between editors that the normal resolution processes fail at solving. It is quite a stretch to say that the case that was brought represented a behavior dispute between editors that normal process failed at and that this ruling is a response to. It is an ill conceived, poorly written, unjustified, variously interpreted terrible ruling that will create and has created drama. In the future it is very likely to create NPOV violations that can not be fixed without even more drama. To embolden admins in this way either creates a honeypot to catch and desyop admins or it is a get out jail free card that will create even less incentive for acting responsibly. WAS 4.250 (talk) 14:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Ned Scott

Unfortunately I don't think much good will come from this request for clarification. We're asking arbcom itself if arbcom can do this or not.. This is a good example of why we need some form of checks and balances. However, I still encourage editors to leave comments here, as the discussion itself my pressure arbcom into re-thinking the issue (as it has in the past when the community got in an uproar over a past decision). -- Ned Scott 21:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Carcharoth

Taking a different tack on this, the history of the Arbitration policy is quite interesting, especially how it was actually put together, and especially when you compare it to how things work now. The initial version of the policy was posted over four years ago on 1 February 2004. See here. I think the version that was voted on (see oppose votes 12 and 14 at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration policy ratification vote for early uses of "arbitrary"... <ahem>) is here. Anyway, aside from the history lesson, what I really wanted to try and point out, was whether the policy document has actually changed to fit current practice (ie. is it descriptive rather than prescriptive?). Judging my the last year's worth of edits, tweaks are made on a fairly regular basis. Though I will note that this citation tag has remained in the policy since November 2007. There was also an edit war in September 2006 over whether the Arbitration Committee itself should be able to rewrite the policy, plus some other issues. See: , , , , . Currently, the bit at the top says: "This page documents an official policy on the English Misplaced Pages. More so than other policies it should not be edited without considerable forethought and consensus among Committee members." That current version stems from this edit. Just some examples of how the policy has been tweaked over the years. Carcharoth (talk) 01:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Tony Sidaway

  • Sir Thomas: "Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?"
  • Roper: "Why, yes! I'd cut down every law in England to do that!"
  • Sir Thomas: "Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down--and you're just the man to do it, Roper!--do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then?"

A challenge to provisions made by the final dispute-resolution apparatus of this community should be treated with care. The arbitration committee is elected and it is in our interests, while telling it when we think it may have made a mistake, to ensure that we do not challenge its legitimacy. We don't want to have to face those winds. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 01:26, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

And of course I forgot to say that we're scheduled to hold another arbitration committee election later this year. About half a dozen arbitrator seats will be up for election. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 03:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by brenneman

These questions need to be asked.

I too have spent some time recently reviewing the history and role of the Committee, and in particular its response to community input. While I do not believe that this is the appropriate venue, some general threads are already appearing in this very short discussion:

  • The tension between policy as "what we do" and "what is written." This is the premise of this entire request, no?
  • The tension between Misplaced Pages as a functional collaborative community and the foundation-level ability of ArbCom to rule by fiat.

The community (and the 'Pedia) have grown enormously. It's well and truly time to go back to first principles: Asking what is the function of the Committee, what problems are they intended to solve, and what the best way to move forward is. Arguments that suggest that we simply cannot disband the committee are well, simply avoiding the substance of this debate.

The most beneficial, the most "wiki" way forward is to have a wide-ranging discussion with the community. You know, the one that actually writes the encyclopaedia?

brenneman 02:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Dragon695

Some arbiters are saying that this is similar to remedies imposed on a collection of articles that have been made for awhile now. I just have to disagree with them on this one. The number of BLPs alone is a magnitude of 100x what any of those previous collective remedies covered. To make matters worse, WP:BLP has become like a cancer, creeping into articles and subjects which have very little to do with BLP at all. However, because a living person is mentioned, the entire article is covered by BLP in the minds of some BLP extremists. So, with that factored in, this general remedy is in the order of 1000x what previous general remedies covered. I'm concerned that arbiters are not paying attention to how some very well protected administrators game the system using these policies and general remedies as outlined in C68-FM-SV evidence. Look at what happened to Cla68 when he tried to call out SlimVirgin on her wrong-doing, he was crucified. Did you know that SlimVirgin popped in over at the BLP Special Enforcement talk page to let us know that she would not be abiding by the statement of ArbCom that only uninvolved administrators should apply this remedy, since the word univolved contradicted language in WP:BLP? This is exactly the kind of thing that I and many others feared. If you refuse to revisit this decision, will you please, please, please make it clear that only uninvolved administrators are entitled to invoke this remedy. --Dragon695 (talk) 16:29, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Kendrick7

I second what Dragon695 says. While anyone can remove problematic information per WP:BLP, involved admins should not be handing out long term blocks, especially where it's easy and commonplace to dress up content disputes as BLP issues. I don't understand why ArbCom can't understand the problem with turning our encyclopedia into a bunch of little fiefdoms. You'll drive off productive editors when they realize they are essentially serfs. If the Middle Ages taught use one thing, it's that feudalism is a crappy way to run things. -- Kendrick7 18:26, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Septentrionalis

I have misgivings about the wisdom of both delegations made here. The BLP delegation has been sufficiently discussed; but ArbCom would do well to observe that even advocates of a sweeping BLP policy are decrying this as precipitate, permitting admins to cut down all the protections of consensus by shouting "BLP!" We will see what happens.

But the Sourcing Adjudication Board has the potential to be even worse. The reasons why not to have been discussed in the Homeopathy case: they boil down to: the SAB members can be, and probably will be, carriers of POV themselves. One of the worst editors I know of, now largely departed for Citizendium, was (and Citizendium acknowledged him as) a professor at a small college, with a creditable academic output. This did not prevent him from collecting and citing sources for his Point of View which actually said something quite different; I believe he had put the words he wanted through Google Scholar and did not check whether the sources found supported him when read in context and in full.

We need to do something about source disputes; but there is no reason we cannot do them in public: ask uninvolved editors with access to good libraries what the sources say, and have quotes posted on this puiblished Wiki. Please don't consult privately with volunteer editors and emit sanctions based on the result without hearing the other side. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Robster2001

I have no opinion, at this time, about the BLP or SAB policies themselves.

I simply have a question about the process -- until now, the Arbitration Committee has acted as Misplaced Pages's judicial body, limiting its role to enforcing existing policy.

With the BLP and SAB decisions, the Committee has assumed legislative authority, which until now has been vested (for the most part) in the community. And it is doing so not in public view, but in two obscure arbitration cases. There are many editors who will be affected by these major policy changes that will have no idea that they have been implemented, and no idea where to look for them.

Realistically, would any non-involved editor (the huge majority of them) know to look for a new sourcing policy in the remedies to a case about Homeopathy articles?

If the Committee intends to become a policy-making body, it should do so in the full light of day -- not by adopting policies in hidden corners of policy-wonk territory, then expanding them out to the greater Misplaced Pages population.

Even the best-intentioned, and best-designed, policies will fail when adopted in darkness. After all, it's easy to ignore a rule that nobody saw being passed.

Wiki-wide policy simply should not be made this way. It will cause unnecessary dramatics, and divert attention from the merit of the policy to the merit of the process, as this arbitration request has already proven.

There are, of course, larger governance issues on en.wikipedia -- specifically, policies haven't really adapted to the growth of the service -- but that discussion is out of scope here. One hopes that discussion will, eventually, take place.

Some good points here worth addressing.
I would not wish to see the Committee becoming a legislative body (in the usual public sense). Sometimes it will need to reach a binding decision how best we communally work towards achieving our already existing goals, or the processes and standards that existing norms will be operated and measured by, and this is one of its tasks. We do that every time we set out principles in a case, since 2004 - "this is how to think about it in the context of communal standards, norms and policies; this is where the users went wrong". This may be one or two users, or an entire area.
In that sense the committee is doing a role similar in its core to other forms of arbitration - namely, taking a serious situation where multiple sides fail to find a way forward, hearing all sides, and giving a binding statement of the way forward (processes, practices, decisions on areas of contention, etc) that will be adopted in light of their inability to do so themselves. It also does this to make clear if a case arises in future, the standards and expectations it will use to rule on it, so that the community as a whole becomes aware and has fair notice of the standards we would feel best to apply/expect if needed.
On your main points I concur. I have this interesting observation on it, though. At Arbitration, we see a gradual ratchet of cases over time - as we learn to handle routine cases, they get more and more handled by the community so the difficulty of cases we see here and the issues they bring, will steadily and perennially increase. That's the nature of our work, and a good thing too, it keeps us on our toes as the project progresses and shows the lesser cases that used to flumox the community are now readily handled by it much better - they don't need arbitration nearly as often. But by the same token, the community needs to understand that there is a second ratchet over time too - a quality ratchet. Thinking "these articles are sort-of-okay(-ish)" might have been fine a while ago, but the community too needs to learn to demand of itself and its corpus, that higher standards of vigilance and expectation really are possible - it's not just words or "nice ideas". They are genuine expectations that benefit the project and which have had huge debate and little action. As we are constantly stretched, so is the community, and quality is one area where a number of editors are unfortunately just a bit too happy to go along with "last years standards" or "whatever gets by". Not good. Must change.
Having considered the nature of the problem, the solution we adopt to BLP disputes is a broad one, but still purely a remedy. This one's called "special enforcement" and past wide reaching admin tool discretion for unresolved issues were called "general sanctions" is secondary. It's the exact same approach we've adopted to get action on many perennial disputes since 2007, and we feel that the community having produced no workable idea, it's time to try ratcheting a stronger variation of it on this other problem area, too. Basically, "expect to be required to meet a higher standard against our norms and communal policies when it's a BLP - regardless whether it's conduct, judgement, collaboration, or handling of concerns". We haven't say what BLP content should look like, just that we expect to see more realization and greater seriousness that a higher standard of baseline is needed and now expected, for editors (admins and non-admins alike) wishing to engage this area. As ever, WP:AGF and good editorship/adminship is fine. But it must be with more careful thought and better working together, than often in past years. Guidance to follow.
Some thoughts... and thank you for the comments. FT2  13:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Alansohn

When the community takes a dispute to arbitration, and the issue is accepted by Arbcom, the rather reasonable expectation is that Arbcom will deal with the subject of the arbitration. That it may "impose binding solutions" is explicitly listed in Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee, but so is the clearest directive that it "is the last step in the dispute resolution process". The arbitration used to impose BLP special enforcement had nothing to do with BLP or the inability of administrators to impose solutions related to biographies of living people using its existing arsenal of remedies.

I would have loved to hear what Arbcom thinks about inclusion of brief quotations in footnotes -- the nominal subject of this arbitration -- but Arbcom decided that the subject of footnoted quotes was a content dispute outside of their purview. The original arbitration then became a fishing expedition, with editors from all over coming up with subjects that they wanted reviewed and addressed by Arbcom, regardless of how tangentially-connected or utterly irrelevant they were to footnoted quotes, the titled subject of this arbitration.

Under bizarre circumstances that I have already discussed elsewhere, Arbcom decided that enforcement of WP:BLP was the issue it needed to address here. The only problem is that BLP was never an issue among the editors involved in the arbitration. No editor or administrator had ever raised any BLP issue with the articles in question between the involved parties. The BLP issue was somehow related to an article that I had last edited in January in which (as I still see it), BLP was used improperly as an excuse to keep thoroughly-sourced, neutrally-worded material out of an article.

Without any apparent discussion of the actual case or alternate remedies that might have addressed the article it had chosen to address, Arbcom decided that super-duper triple secret probation ("special enforcement") was needed to solve some unknown BLP-related problem that was never a subject of the arbitration nor a proper matter of dispute in any article raised at arbitration. Arbcom chose to decide an issue that it had no legitimate jurisdiction over to address as part of the arbitration.

Most of the efforts in signpost and elsewhere to draw people to discuss "special enforcement" provide no context or explanation of the supposed issue, the remedy Arbcom came up with or the drastic and chilling effects it will likely have if ever used. That so many in the community feel confused, flabbergasted or duped is a simple matter of an inability to understand why BLP special enforcement solves the issue of footnoted quotes, a still festering problem.

Simply stated, Arbcom chose to legislate from the bench on a topic which was not under dispute, and on which it has no jurisdiction.

Arbcom needs to clearly explain why it chose to accept a discussion on footnoted quotes that it acknowledged was a content issue. Arbcom needs to explain why it chose to address the BLP issue in the first place, which article had a BLP issue as a subject of the arbitration, how the proposed remedies "solve" the purported "problem" and how faith in Arbcom to be the last resort in dispute resolution when it seems to be issuing extremely broad dictates on topics that are not matters of dispute. Alansohn (talk) 19:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:DGG

Recent events make it all he more necessary for this to be discussed, though possibly not here: ArbCom cannot be the final decider of its own remit and limitations. The foundational principle seems to show a limited scope, and if it is not clear enough it can be changed. it did not always exist--arb com was not in existence from the beginning of the project. DGG (talk) 19:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Martintg

Kirill's proposition to delegate ArbCom authority to admins is in fact a change in policy and the dispute resolution process; it effectively curtails general dispute resolution processes and arbitration as a last resort between individuals, to be replaced by a regime of "discretionary sanctions" applied arbitarily by admins across entire communities of editors on the basis of, what is in essence, racial profiling:

"The current trend of "general" remedies—which is to say, remedies which do not explicitly specify the editor(s) to whom they apply, but are instead left open such that other parties (typically administrators) may apply them without consultation with the Committee—is something that emerged from the large number of cases involving ethnic, national, and political conflicts that were heard throughout 2007 and into early 2008. The fundamental problem encountered there was that problems with editor conduct were not primarily an artifact of the individual, but rather of the group to which he belonged; in other words, the issue was not with the quirks of a specific editor, but with a statistically substantial portion of all editors who were members of some external national, ethnic, political, or other group."
"Attempts to deal with such cases by sanctioning each involved editor individually (as was done in, say, Armenia-Azerbaijan) were largely ineffective, both because new editors would continuosly arrive and engage in the same problem behavior, and because the ease of creating new accounts meant that editors who were the subject of sanctions could evade them with minimal effort. Short of instituting drum-head trials and increasing the current caseload by an order of magnitude or more, the arbitration model simply cannot scale to deal with such scenarios adequately; and so we decided to delegate a portion of our authority to the administrator corps in general, allowing them to essentially issue remedies in our name."

Working at the coalface I can unequivocally state (and examination of ANI and other boards confirms this) in the case of Baltic states topics, there is simply no veracity in the claims that individual sanctions have no effect, of disruptive new editors continually arriving or sanctioned individuals recreating accounts to the extent that it is a problem demanding a radical solution. In fact the reverse is true with good editors leaving the project in the case of the Baltic states. There is no rational basis now for the application of such sanctions across such a broad area of Eastern Europe. "Eastern Europe" is just too broad an area. Despite repeated requests for clarification of scope, and no clear concensus or even discussion about the need from the community and opposition from former ArbCom member NewYorkBrad and others, , , why is Kirill doggedly attempting to push this through for the third time? Martintg (talk) 07:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Alex Bakharev (talk)

It is my believe that Arbcom does have power to interpret our policies and to make binding decision based on their interpretation. Arbcom has no power to create policies by itself nor it has a proven track of success in creation of those policies. Both policies under question are good proposals that should be discussed and most probably amended by the community. Arbcom might have its word if there will be any dispute over these proposals unresolvable by lesser WP:DR means. It is important that the proposal being adopted by the community rather than Arbcom on two levels:

  1. On the procedural ones - it is a violation of separation of powers and creates a wrong precedent
  2. On the pragmatic level - Arbcom members were elected for their might in the dispute resolution not on their might in the content creation. Many of them are not fully familiar with all aspects of article creation and the whole range of possible problems there (I suspect no single individual on wiki could claim such a familiarity anyway). Thus, the projects written by such a committee might have significant deficiencies.

In short I propose to consider those two policies as excellent proposal ready to be edited and discussed by the community Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Messedrocker

This is how I see it.

The goal of the Arbitration Committee is to be decisive when others cannot. I have no problem with the Arbitration Committee creating policy if it resolves the argument at hand. Once the community has come to its senses, they can decide to do away with the created policy if they well please since it's not the Arbitration Committee's mission to create lasting policy, but rather to solve disputes (even if that means temporary policies are created).

It is unwise to put a blanket ban on Arbitration Committee-created policy.

MessedRocker (talk) 02:28, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

I suggest that you re-read the policy and also review our previous rulings for examples of remedies. Your statement does not reflect the actual wording or the spirit of the ArbCom's policy. In past ruling we have made Findings and Remedies about Wikiprojects and the Community. And our policies, like most Misplaced Pages policy, are descriptive not prescriptive. FloNight♥♥♥ 12:57, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
In responce, a direct quote of the portion of the policy,

Remedies will be of a form similar to:

  • "User X is cautioned against making personal attacks even under severe provocation."
  • "User X is limited to one revert per twenty four hour period on article A."
  • "User X is placed on personal attack parole for a period of Y; if User X engages in edits which an administrator believes to be personal attacks, they may be banned for a short period of time of up to Z."
  • "User X is prohibited from editing group Y of articles for a period of Z."
  • "User X is banned from editing Misplaced Pages for a period of Y."
Can you please highlight which part of this allows for remedies that create new policy applicable to the entire wiki? I also directly dispute your statement, the arbitration policy by it's very nature is one of the few proscriptive policies. --Barberio (talk) 13:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your interest in discussing a concern, but you are mistaken in your interpretation of that section. That section of the policy describes the format of the written ruling and not the content of the ruling.

And by custom and practice, ArbCom writes the description of our policy. As always, I'm interested in listening to the opinions of users and will make my decisions after careful reflection on what is best for the Community per my understanding of community norms and policy. FloNight♥♥♥ 13:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I apologise for being forceful... But you are merely saying I am mistaken, but not saying why I am mistaken. You are making an empty argument, and an appeal to authority.
Again, I ask the simple question to which you now appear to refuse to answer.
Where in the current WP:Arbitration policy are you empowered to create new policy and processes in a remedy? --Barberio (talk) 13:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
This is a fairly unproductive line of reasoning, at best. If you prefer, you may interpret every "general" remedy that we have passed as a statement of intent that we (a) shall desysop and/or ban editors that do not comply with it and (b) shall not to desysop and/or ban editors that do comply, both of which we are perfectly empowered to do by your interpretation of the policy. Kirill 03:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Overlooking, for the moment, the purely semantic matter of how general sanctions may be written in a way that complies with a one-editor-per-sanction model—as I've mentioned above, this is perfectly doable (albeit with more paperwork for us), but I don't think people are that interested in an extended discussion of ruleslawyering—I'd like to comment on the more substantive points raised here.

The current trend of "general" remedies—which is to say, remedies which do not explicitly specify the editor(s) to whom they apply, but are instead left open such that other parties (typically administrators) may apply them without consultation with the Committee—is something that emerged from the large number of cases involving ethnic, national, and political conflicts that were heard throughout 2007 and into early 2008. The fundamental problem encountered there was that problems with editor conduct were not primarily an artifact of the individual, but rather of the group to which he belonged; in other words, the issue was not with the quirks of a specific editor, but with a statistically substantial portion of all editors who were members of some external national, ethnic, political, or other group.

Attempts to deal with such cases by sanctioning each involved editor individually (as was done in, say, Armenia-Azerbaijan) were largely ineffective, both because new editors would continuosly arrive and engage in the same problem behavior, and because the ease of creating new accounts meant that editors who were the subject of sanctions could evade them with minimal effort. Short of instituting drum-head trials and increasing the current caseload by an order of magnitude or more, the arbitration model simply cannot scale to deal with such scenarios adequately; and so we decided to delegate a portion of our authority to the administrator corps in general, allowing them to essentially issue remedies in our name.

It's worth pointing out, then, that this method has been common practice since at least the middle of 2007 (and far longer, if we include the old "article probation" as a general remedy), with no general sentiment that it was incompatible with the stated purpose and structure of the Committee. The current situation is essentially an application of it to a type-of-article scope (i.e. BLPs) rather than to a subject-of-article one (i.e. articles dealing with Armenia-Azerbaijan); it is fundamentally following the same well-established model of delegating our authority in order to be able to handle the disputes in the area with some reasonable expediency. It is not "making policy" any more so than the other remedies of this form were; rather, it's simply a (quite necessary) form of delegation. Kirill 06:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you've explained how you got to this point... But this is not an argument in favour of letting the arbcom continue assuming powers by these extensions.
Let me illustrate... There's a path that goes up to a cliff edge, that we're walking up. It's a perfectly safe, level path, except it gets a bit lumpy and dangerous near to the cliff edge. Someone might walk along that path, each step automatic leading on from the one before.
But most people stop once they get to the edge of the cliff.
Perhaps I might suggest that the Arbitration Committee went just a bit too far in assuming powers to make subject-of-article remedies without first consulting with the community as to if they had those powers. I'm comfortably sure that the community would have granted those powers, but they would most probably limited them to areas of correcting editor conduct, not creating new policy and processes.
The major point I feel you're ignoring is that this fundamentally changes ArbComs role. From now on, if this stands, ArbCom will be rule makers, not rule enforcers. And not only that, but rule makers who don't have to listen to community consensus. And I don't think that was what you were elected to be. Arguing that it was a 'gradual assumption of new rolls based on previous actions', is not an actual argument in favour of assuming this new role.
Again, can you please give the community some valid reasoning as to why you should be able to create new policy and processes? Otherwise, I think the community might decide you are not?--Barberio (talk) 10:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
As I've said, there's no new policy being created here; this is merely a delegation of our existing, traditional authority. Kirill 17:46, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by FT2:

There are two questions asked here - the remedies, and the committee's remit - and the precursor to this dialog took place largely on the mailing list . I wrote an answer to the question, "what is the role of the Arbitrators in this project", on the wikien-l mailing list (actually two: an email + a wording fix). That covers a large part of the answer. Broadly speaking, Misplaced Pages is not just "the community", and "whatever the community decides" is not the be-all and end-all on Misplaced Pages. The community is only half of the equation. The other half is "a project to write a neutral encyclopedia". The Arbitration Committee is one of the project's key checks and balances. Elected by the community, with authority above the community on a number of matters , it is invested from the same level and same origins that gave consensus decision making to the community as its core decision-making process. Part of its purpose is to ensure that the actual needs of encyclopedia writing and the focus of the community on its intended project, as embedded in its various policies and norms, are not accidentally marginalized in favor of wiki socio-politics and/or society-building experiments , MySpace, and "drift".

If you pause and think what the request of this post is asking, it's attempting to contend that we may not introduce strong enforcement of BLPs (often our most sensitive articles) as a remedy for a range of communal BLP disputes, when it is plainly necessary, and when the community has repeatedly failed to reach a means to do so by dialog. That is exactly part of what this committee was founded to do. It is precisely one key role of the community-elected Arbitrators acting in their role as handlers of the community's most difficult disputes, to find ways forward that promote the aims of the project and the aims of its policies on such disputes. "We can't ensure good BLP enforcement for biographical articles, but you (arbcom) aren't allowed to make it happen either". No. We are a community together. Our role is to give a ruling to allow progress on "last resort" areas of serious dispute. We have all communally watched this one area try to be given higher quality with stronger enforcement expectations, against substandard editorship for a long time, and it needs a hard shove. This, with better guidance, may help. If not, guess what - we'll figure another way. One way or another, BLP's are being brought up to their intended aim of very high standard articles. There will probably be a sea-change of culture on this, from "well, its okay (maybe)" to "is it really impeccable?" Users can understand that shift, and the reason for it - or not.

The other thing is, this is not policy change. BLP has always been expected to be that way, as ideally all articles are. This is about achievement and laxness, it's about enforcement, and about process provisions to deal with the persistent concerns over under-enforcement or mis-enforcement of these existing policies. Nothing here changes how an article should be written, what standards are expected, what BLP or NPOV mean, what a reliable source is and whether we should have a policy on these. Both of the cited remedies are purely about remedying divisive issues between administrators (and in this case also non-administrators), whereby the community may apply some policies in a patchwork manner at times, or some policies may not be enforced as strictly as the project needs, because of uncertainties and failure of consensus-seeking about what to do in difficult cases. These are both remedies which give extra tools to support the enforcement and best interpretation of existing policies and norms, exactly like all rulings in complex disputes are intended to achieve. They are Arbcom doing one of its most difficult roles - grasping the nettle and using norms and policies to find ways to guide the project through a difficult problem that no other part of the community has been willing or able to fix to the standard we feel it needs to be brought.

Our response to the cases brought to us by the community is,

  1. for BLPs (passed) - be much stricter, and we will post guidance shortly on what exactly BLP policy's best interpretations and practices seem to be, in order to indicate what we have in mind on that, and
  2. for sourcing (proposed) - to take our authority to resolve all dispute topics (which does include content disputes, but which we strongly avoid applying) and use it to establish some kind of "last resort" arbitration (exact format being discussed and subject to decision) for determining if a source is being properly cited and represented in a dispute.

Cross reference Arbitration policy ("The Committee reserve the right to hear or not hear any dispute ... The following are general guidelines... but the Committee may make exceptions.... will primarily investigate interpersonal disputes..."). Cross reference other broad-approach remedies such as "general sanctions" that have gone into wide use, and been adopted by the community as workable. Cross reference my initial view as stated during the case itself and at the time of initial proposed close (May 31) to see that I have zero problem stating a view honestly held, and then doing so again, and that I would not say this unless I did concur.

Like the wider community we are not 100% sure what will ultimately prove "best". Unlike the wider community, on this occasion, we are less easily driven to doing little about it, by the limitations of large-scale consensus seeking and endless dialog. If in response, the community can produce a convincingly stronger and better regime driving higher quality, that does the job needed to meet the high standard we have communally committed towards, then these remedies may possibly become redundant. So far, despite varied attempts by a number of individuals and megabytes of dialog over a period of years, that has not happened. I will be pleasantly surprised if the community finds a better solution, but until such time as a better way is proposed, accepted, and works, the arbcom solution (subject to development and tuning in light of experience) is the current way forward on these key areas of quality and dispute. If this remedy leads to the community actually realizing the standards that can be achieved, and figuring out and agreeing a still better approach that actually works, then it will have achieved its ideal goal, and I hope that will be the case. Sometimes an issue can drift interminably, and an common effort is only really made when something serious happens giving a sense of urgency. That now exists; enforcement of high standards of editing is here, now, today; users (whether admin or otherwise) should take that on board today, and begin learning better collaborative and editing skills, if they wish to edit our BLP articles going forward without administrative action.

I hope this remedy works. I don't often speak strongly this way, but these things matter and we all know it. They are central to our writing, and the expectation of high standards - enforced to a matching high standard of fairness by experienced users and admins - must become adopted as a working new reality. If not, we'll find other ways to fix it. A discussion today reminded me just how people sometimes don't realize that we can greatly improve quality and handling of our BLPs (or they may only have a vague ill-thought-out concept of it as a theory read on some policy page or a simplistic "delete it all" idea). If they did, perhaps they would realize that we can, and should, strive for that -- not just talk about it.

With hopes that I am doing my best by taking a stance on encyclopedic content quality first, and willingness as always to listen to comments. FT2  23:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Moreschi

As I think WP:AE currently shows nicely, the Eastern Europe flamewars cannot be dealt with by the current provisions of the Digwuren case. At any rate, I cannot cope, and I don't think anyone else can either. Isolating civility in the way the case does has simply encouraged users to bait other users in an effort to get their opponents put on civility supervision and blocked. We need discretionary sanctions WP:ARBMAC style to counter this, though with a good definition of the area of conflict (I would suggest, at the least, that it covers Polish-German disputes, in addition to Polish-Russian and articles relating to the Baltic states and Ukraine). Best, Moreschi (talk) (debate) 22:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Please see User:Moreschi/The Plague/Useful links for a list of EE-related ArbCom cases. The problem goes back years, and is easily comparable to other problematic areas such as Arab-Israeli, Balkans, or India-Pakistan. At the moment a whole pile of revert-warriors need to be revert-paroled, some incorrigible trolls topic-banned, and some baiters blocked. The current Digwuren case does not allow for this to happen. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 22:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Re Daniel: better definition of the area of conflict needed, I'm afraid. Just "Eastern Europe" is too vague. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 22:29, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Matthead

I had opened at case at WP:AE, after which User:Molobo opened two against me 1st (closed) and 2nd, trying to take advantage that I had been added quickly to the Digwuren list shortly after it was opened, and got immediately blocked, while he and well known other editors have, well, since been overlooked somehow? I perceive the composition of the list as lopsided and doubt that Eastern Europe flamewars are conducted one way. Misplaced Pages has 5 pillars, of which "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia" and "Misplaced Pages has a neutral point of view" are the first two, and arguably the most important ones, compared to "Misplaced Pages has a code of conduct" as fourth. Thus, as we try to write an encyclopedia, I think it is necessary that much more attention is given to the content that editors add or remove, rather than to civility or the lack thereof, or the skill with which some editors can provoke uncivil responses while getting judged civil themselves. For example, Molobo repeatedly denied that there was a by-election to the Polish parliament in 1920 with support by another well known user , calling it a German hoax also on talk, and stubbornly refused to acknowledge that after the Versailles Treaty made Soldau/Dzialdowo Polish, a by-election was held, which apparently is also stated on pl-wiki (which he repeatedly rejects, eg. with no source in Polish wikipedia and I can just as well edit that article that Martians invaded Działdowo in 1920. They were no elections in 1920 in Poland to Sejm. Case closed.). If I had not fixed it, the misinformation "A German author claims that after the town was ceded to Poland a large part of German inhabitants left the area but the candidate of the German Party, Ernst Barczewski, was elected to the Sejm with 74,6 % of votes in 1920, although no Sejm elections took place at the time" would probably still remain. Also, on Talk:Karkonosze, he repeatedly made false claims, denying that both Encyclopedia Britannica and Opera Corcontica use Giant Mountains rather than Karkonosze. In both cases, he Refused to 'get the point' despite other editors providing evidence that the was wrong, very wrong. Is such behavior acceptable? Molobo almost got permabanned two years ago. He returned after his one year block, and seemingly was allowed to do as he pleases since. -- Matthead  Discuß   02:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Piotrus' statement: it was Piotrus who made the most effective use of the new Digwuren case as soon as October 2007. It was him who had produced (actively?) "a big list" of (not so clear) diffs collected until December to take advantage of the restrictions, and managed to have Dr. Dan listed as the very first extension to the list, with Dr. Dan inflaming Eastern European topics. Soon, he got me, too, with Another Eastern European spat (originally titled Another Eastern European flamer, against which Dr.Dan protested). On the other hand, it indeed "is very, very difficult to get a user on the Digwuren's warning list" when he defends him, like in Darwinek's case. And as Piotrus and others know very well, it is hardly a coincidence that edits "will be reverted by more numerous" users who are listening to Gadu Gadu instant messenger. One of the biggest weaknesses of Misplaced Pages policies is that they treat editors as isolated individuals, especially in 3RR cases, while highly questionable forms of cooperations are overlooked, ignored, or denied. -- Matthead  Discuß   09:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Relata refero

There is absolutely no doubt that this is required. My involvement in EE issues is limited to the Worst Article On Misplaced Pages and on responding to various RfCs and posts on noticeboards - perhaps half a dozen articles altogether. It would be more except for the (a) blatant wikilawyering and misrepresentation of sources that happens as a matter of course and (b) outright baiting and misapplication of civility. I'm not one of those who believes that civility is pointless when dealing with POV-pushers, but what we have in these articles is that any statement of fact - "that source is obviously irrelevant" - is met with head-shaking reminders to be civil in the hope that some form ArbCom-mandated sanction will be required.

As a general rule, any section of the 'pedia permanently plagued with clashing historical narratives requires our most stringent controls. These are more difficult to administer and keep clean, because of the free availability and difficulty in recognising dubious sourcing, than the pseudoscience/scientific consensus articles that people have wailing conniptions about all over the noticeboards. Not to mention there are fewer people able and willing to keep an eye on it, and its much tougher to recognise POV-pushing....

If ArbCom suggests that I present a few diffs of the sort of occasion where (a) civility restrictions have led to baiting and (b) discretionary sanctions would have been helpful - just from my own experience - I am willing to. --Relata refero (disp.) 06:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Rlevse

I endorses this request. Many of the long-term problematic areas of wiki need strong and flexible remedies. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Biophys

"Blocks of up to one year" on discretion of a single uninvolved administrator... Such drastic measured could only be used for users with long blocking history (say 6+ blocks). Besides, the area of conflict should be clearly defined. I asked previously if any Russia-related subjects belong to Digwuren case, but there was no answer. I trust Moreschi judgment, but we need some safeguards if this is adopted as a general policy.Biophys (talk) 17:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Still, this might be a good idea if the area is clearly defined (e.g. Russia-Ukrainian conflict). But the definition of "uninvolved administrator" is terrible. There are many highly opinionated administrators who edit in the area. They will simply block all others. An "uninvolved administrator" should be someone who never edited in the area of conflict! Biophys (talk) 16:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Martintg

There is no justification to extend discretionary sanctions to other topic areas such as the Polish/Russian articles, Ukraine or particularly the Baltic states. An examination of WP:ANI and other boards will reveal that these areas are relatively harmonious, and the existing mechanisms such as 3RR are working well.

A similar motion to impose discretionary sanctions across all of Easter Europe, on the back of a single 3RR violation in that case, was attempted back in February, but was archived due to lack of interest and some important questions of scope remaining unanswered

So what has happened since February? A scan through the WP:AE archives reveals only a small number of cases reported to the AE board have anything actually to do with Eastern Europe. Out of 126 cases since February, only 4 are EE related, particularly Poland, and of those 4, 3 are concerned with Matthead ,,

Looking at the Digwuren enforcement provision indicates no utilisation of that remedy since April, despite Matthead being put on notice in January and blocked and three recent reports to WP:AE have gone unactioned, indicated above.

Both Moreschi and Rlevse have failed to adequately use the current remedies available to them. What is the point of proposing additional discretionary sanctions (with arbitrary blocks of up to one year) across all of EE, if they are unwilling or too timid to use existing remedies and impose a simple 24 hour block against an individual, despite it being brought to WP:AE three times in the last month?

Experience has shown that in the case of EE, disruption is usually caused by one or two individuals, and if they are banned/blocked harmony quickly returns. This is clearly a case concerning the behaviour of an individual and has no relevance to any other topic areas like Ukraine, Poland/Russia or the Baltic States. Massive intervention that risks totally chilling a broad subject area is not required, particularly when precise targeted action is more than sufficient. Martintg (talk) 21:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I've asked Martintg on email to refactor his statement in which he seems to single out me as trouble maker, based on what is a false perception. It was me who filed this to bring attention to an edit war in which I was not involved (just witnessing). In that thread, user Molobo attacked me, then filed not one, but two requests against me, repeating the same statements. All that within less than 24 hours. And that is now held against me? -- Matthead  Discuß   16:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't intend to single anyone out, I was attempting to convey that the current remedies and mechanisms are sufficient for admins to do their job. Who attacked who first is not at issue here, but requesting the imposition of draconian sanctions across a vast heterogeneous area of Misplaced Pages on the back of a personality clash between yourself and Molobo is. Can't you two work out your differences over a beer or something? It certainly has nothing to do with the Baltic states, so I don't see why additional remedies would be required. Martintg (talk) 00:10, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
You still single me out, and in your original statement, you even asked why admins are unwilling to impose a simple 24 hour block against me. If you are neutral, I urge you to remove my name, and the diffs involving me, from your statement above - if you do not, I have to conclude that you side with Molobo against me, endorsing and essentially repeating his attacks. -- Matthead  Discuß   08:42, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Alex Bakharev contends the current sanction encourages editors to "bait" other parties into civility violations. If this is the case, then discretionary sanctions will be an even bigger encouragement to bait editors into violation, since it only requires the discretion of a single uninvolved admin and the heavy threat of desysoping other admins who may overturn a sanction. A very profitable outcome to any baiter compared with the current situation. Arguing for additional sanctions across all Eastern European articles because of a dispute about some German/Polish topic is akin to arguing for discretionary sanctions across all North American related articles because of disruption in some US related article like 9/11. I'm sure those editing Canadian or Mexican topics would not be happy about that prospect. Martintg (talk) 04:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Looking at User:Moreschi/The Plague/Useful links for a list of EE-related ArbCom cases, we see that there were 6 cases in 2007 (Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Anonimu doesn't count, as discussed here), but zero in the first half of 2008. This is a testament to the improvement that has been made since 2007, and thus no comparison to other problematic areas such as Arab-Israeli, for example, which has had already 2 Arbcom cases in 2008 so far. If Moreschi believes there are a "whole pile of revert-warriors need to be revert-paroled, some incorrigible trolls topic-banned, and some baiters blocked", he should name them here, as I know of none in the Baltic states topic area that requires the imposition of addtitional discretionary sanctions. I'm not aware of issues in the areas either, e.g. like Ukraine, certainly nothing serious enough to warrant reporting to ANI or other boards. Martintg (talk) 19:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Piotrus

For the most part I agree with Marting. I don't think that CE/EE area is much more inflamed then many others; we just have a few persistent trolls and borderline disruptive users. We have weeks of quiet punctuated by an occasional week when one of them "wakes up" and disrupts an article or two, then goes away after he learns again that such disruption will be reverted by more numerous, neutral editors. That said, it is a fact that such storms are stressful and may result in a good editor taking a long wikibreak or even permanently leaving, fed up with flaming and harassment. It is very, very difficult to get a user on the Digwuren's warning list and later, blocked - even if one produces a big list of very clear diffs you get the usual "random admin decision", usually erring on the case of 'let's give him another chance' or 'he was warned few month ago and inactive recently, so let's just warn him again'. And certainly, other admins may be to timid or afraid to apply the remedy to experienced editors who have proven their skills with wikilawyering. Thus I do think that the Digwuren sanction ended up being relatively pointless. Just as before, what we need are a few blocks (or topical ban - see who creates little to no content but flames and revert wars) - and the problem would cease to exist. Perhaps some conclusions from this debate may prove useful in dealing with this problem once and for all.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Clarification: I support Moreschi's idea of adding WP:ARBMAC-like solutions to Digwuren's case. This would vastly improve their effectiveness.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Alex Bakharev (talk)

I agree with Moreschi, the Digwuren sanction encourage editors to bite other parties into the civilty violations and does not help to solve the underlying problem that many editors consider Eastern European articles as battleground and soapbox instead and insert deliberately inflammatory edits to the articles instead of striving to present some balanced view points Alex Bakharev (talk) 03:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Daniel

The Homeopathy discretionary sanctions have passed (by virtue of having six support and one abstention, which reduces the majority to six), and the case is moving towards being closed. Per Kirill below, who said that the Committee was waiting to see which version of discretionary sanctions was prefered, I think the Committee has decided to this effect (the other discretionary sanctions proposal in that case only recieved one support, so the disparity is evident).

Therefore I propose the following motion:

--- START PROPOSED MOTION ---

Remedy 11, "General restriction" is superceded by the following remedy:

Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.

Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.

In determining whether to impose sanctions on a given user and which sanctions to impose, administrators should use their judgment and balance the need to assume good faith and avoid biting genuinely inexperienced editors, and the desire to allow responsible contributors maximum freedom to edit, with the need to reduce edit-warring and misuse of Misplaced Pages as a battleground, so as to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment even on our most contentious articles. Editors wishing to edit in these areas are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Misplaced Pages's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution, neutral point of view, no original research and verifiability) in their editing, and to amend behaviors that are deemed to be of concern by administrators. An editor unable or unwilling to do so may wish to restrict their editing to other topics, in order to avoid sanctions.

Appeals

Sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard (currently Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement), or the Committee. Administrators are cautioned not to reverse such sanctions without familiarizing themselves with the full facts of the matter and engaging in extensive discussion and consensus-building at the administrators' noticeboard or another suitable on-wiki venue. The Committee will consider appropriate remedies including suspension or revocation of adminship in the event of violations.

Uninvolved administrators

For the purpose of imposing sanctions under this provision, an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she is not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions. Enforcing the provisions of this decision will not be considered to be participation in a dispute. Any doubt regarding whether an administrator qualifies under this definition is to be treated as any other appeal of sanctions.

Logging

All sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision are to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Log of blocks and bans.

--- END PROPOSED MOTION ---

Regards, Daniel (talk) 01:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by ChrisO

This might be too radical a suggestion, I know, but might it be possible to adapt something like WP:ARBMAC to provide set of tools that could be applied generically, without having to trigger a full-scale arbitration to achieve that end? I don't think it would be appropriate to allow an individual arbitrator to impose such a regime by him- or herself, but perhaps it could be triggered if there was a consensus among uninvolved admins that there was a problem requiring the application of the ARBMAC tools. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Ghirla

Daniel's motion is far too wide in scope. I'm afraid it will have the effect of shifting the power from ArbCom to the legions of IRC-recruited admins, with bans randomly flying like rifle shots in passing. This is based on a flawed idea of justice. I don't agree with Piotrus that the EE field is plagued by "a few persistent trolls and borderline disruptive users". Those are not a problem that requires ArbCom's involvement. It is plagued by a few long-standing and dedicated editors whose sole aim is to glorify their country and to skew the perspective with their tendentious editing. For a start I'd be for putting Piotrus under editing restrictions, for it would go a longer way toward lightening up the atmosphere than any of the proposed motions. Since I had not been editing English Misplaced Pages between November and June (apart from inserting interwiki links to my articles in Russian Misplaced Pages), nobody can call me the mastermind of all the problems, as Piotrus had insinuated in the previous cases. If nothing has changed for the better, what was the purpose of ArbCom's ousting me out of English Misplaced Pages during the Digwuren case? That screw-up highlighted ArbCom's incompetence and inefficiency, and the proposed motion will have a similar effect. --Ghirla 09:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposed wording from biophys

Per this diff, Biophys suggests the following change to the proposed discretionary sanctions. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

For the purpose of imposing sanctions under the provisions of this case, an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she has not previously participated in any content disputes on articles in the area of conflict. Enforcing the provisions of this decision will not be considered to be participation in a dispute. Any doubt regarding whether an administrator qualifies under this definition is to be treated as any other appeal of discretionary sanctions.

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I have recused myself once and I believe that at least I can say that this area needs more strict measures. I also agree with user:Biophys though the safeguards come usually with the pack. What Moreschi is asking about is the green light from the ArbCom. -- FayssalF - 18:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
    • It must be reminded that this is not a place for discussions as it is mentioned on top of this page. It doesn't help a lot. -- FayssalF - 09:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
  • My response here is the same one that I made in regards to the identical request in the Martinphi-ScienceApologist case below: I'll be happy to move for discretionary sanctions here once the Homeopathy case closes and we know which version of the sanctions is preferred. Kirill 00:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed motions and voting

Discretionary sanctions

Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.

Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.

In determining whether to impose sanctions on a given user and which sanctions to impose, administrators should use their judgment and balance the need to assume good faith and avoid biting genuinely inexperienced editors, and the desire to allow responsible contributors maximum freedom to edit, with the need to reduce edit-warring and misuse of Misplaced Pages as a battleground, so as to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment even on our most contentious articles. Editors wishing to edit in these areas are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Misplaced Pages's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution, neutral point of view, no original research and verifiability) in their editing, and to amend behaviors that are deemed to be of concern by administrators. An editor unable or unwilling to do so may wish to restrict their editing to other topics, in order to avoid sanctions.

Appeals

Sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard (currently Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement), or the Committee. Administrators are cautioned not to reverse such sanctions without familiarizing themselves with the full facts of the matter and engaging in extensive discussion and consensus-building at the administrators' noticeboard or another suitable on-wiki venue. The Committee will consider appropriate remedies including suspension or revocation of adminship in the event of violations.

Uninvolved administrators

For the purpose of imposing sanctions under this provision, an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she is not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions. Enforcing the provisions of this decision will not be considered to be participation in a dispute. Any doubt regarding whether an administrator qualifies under this definition is to be treated as any other appeal of sanctions.

Logging

All sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision are to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Log of blocks and bans.

Other provisions

This provision supersedes the "General restriction" remedy, but does not affect any other provisions of the case, or any sanctions already imposed under the "General restriction" remedy.

There are 11 active arbitrators, so six votes are a majority.
Support:
  1. Proposed as promised; wording is taken from the (currently) passing version in Homeopathy. Kirill 01:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. Using the preferred wording. FloNight♥♥♥ 13:48, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Oppose:
Abstain:

Request to amend: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request: The list of users in affected areas is too large to collect, list and notify conveniently. I will place notices of this request, so the community as a whole is aware, on the village pump, administrators' noticeboard, and fringe theory noticeboard. If another editor believes there is a specific user or another on-wiki forum that should receive notice, they should feel free to drop a link to them.

Statement by Vassyana

I would like to request that ArbCom explicitly permit discretionary sanctions on all pseudoscience and alternative science topics, broadly construed, similar to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions. See here, here, here, here, here, here and here. That is only the recent threads, only from the AE noticeboard, only involving a very limited number of users involved in the broader dispute. I believe ArbCom explicitly endorsing discretionary sanctions would empower and embolden sysops and the community to resolve these long-standing issues, once and for all. Vassyana (talk) 12:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Reply about potential admin abuse

Regarding the concerns about potential admin abuse, I would expect that if ArbCom accepted this request that they would be open to reviewing complaints about related admin abuse. I believe this would increase the oversight and reduce the potential abuse of sysop discretion. Sysops would have to be accoutable for their actions.

I believe relying on more than common sense for the definition of "uninvolved" will only lead to wikilawyering. All of the proposed definitions I've seen essentially leave massive loopholes that anyone looking to game the system or skirt the rules could use. If there is a disagreement about whether an administrator is involved or not, a brief community discussion or appeal to ArbCom should suffice. I simply fail to see the point of creating a limited definition prone to gaming, which would require other admins and the community to employ their natural power of reason regardless. Vassyana (talk) 13:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

In reply to Neal's oppose, I simply cannot understand that point of view, though I have tried. We permit administrators to impose full site blocks without an expiration date at their discretion. I fail to see how giving administrators lessor options (such as a topic ban instead of a full block) in long-disputed areas with persistant conduct problems would increase abuse potential. I should additionally note that we're discussing long-term problems, involving users who either know better by know or almost assuredly are never going to get it, not newbies who are unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages. Vassyana (talk) 19:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

If I may comment directly (if not you can move this to my section). I'm more concerned about abuse-through-misunderstanding rather than abuse-abuse. It's not always clear what's neutral, and the discretionary sanctions designed for Homeopathy and the Palestine-Israeli issue are designed for narrow subjects. A broader subject category, like all pseudoscience/alternative science, becomes muddled with lots of other issues (see my statement). The discretionary sanctions for the narrow topics say any percieved " to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages", by any admin who feels strongly about it. There's lots of admins who feel strongly about their interpretation of NPOV, whether they're involved or not, and especially if they're involved in the broader discussions though not technically involved in the given page at the given time. The discretionary sanctions don't discriminate between bad editor practices like incivility, edit warring, etc. and good faith content disputes. Good faith content disputes can easily be seen as a "conduct problem", as that happens all the time. Maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill, but hopefully you can see where the concern comes from. On a side-note, if we already have tools available for getting problem editors off these articles, why aren't they already banned? --Nealparr 22:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Reply about community discussion

Requesting or advocating that such discretionary empowerment be limited to consensus discussions is essentially the same as opposing this request. The community already has the power to impose bans and other sanctions via community discussion. I tend to think that over time, using such a method will only open up another battleground. Enforcement threads have already become another place to argue for the disputants in heated areas. I shudder to think what kind of response would be received after the first couple of sanction discussions make it "real" to such parties. (For an example, see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive409#User:Mccready_-_endless.2C_disruptive.2C_repetitive_edit_warring.)

Regarding the concern about appeals, they should generally be appealable like any other admin action enforcing ArbCom sanctions: 1) Post to AN to ask other admins to review it. 2) Appeal to ArbCom. Excessive, repeated or otherwise disruptive series of appeals are not appeals at all; they are stumping and should be treated by another uninvolved administrator as disruptive. Vassyana (talk) 13:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Reply to concerns about scope

What if the scope were limited to areas and users that have severe long-running and/or perpetually recurring behavioral issues? I believe that would keep the scope from being too broad or limited. Vassyana (talk) 18:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Rlevse

I heartily endorse this request for stronger measures re editors on both sides of this issue. More details to follow. I'll be on wiki break much of this weekend. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Both sides throw reports at WP:AE, trying to see what will stick. Many admins are wary to block because of fears another admin that is sympathetic to the blockee will unblock. The remedies in place are not working and something has to be done about it. There are also significant agreements among admins about what constitutes civility. This leads to users who have mastered the art of being borderline incivil and getting away with it for years. A firm policy about this sort of incivility being blockable, long term if necessary, need to be put in place. Copied from my comment at WP:AE archive 20..."Closing comment...enough already. This has descended into a finger-pointing complaint session by both sides. Before writing anything about someone else, ask "Would I want to be called that?". If not, don't write it. If it's borderline don't write it-this would stop all the attempts here where users throw up a report just to see what sticks; only truly legit reports would get filed if this were to occur. For example, maybe you wouldn't mind being called "braindead", but it would offend a lot of people. Also, you (you as in everyone, both sides) may consider your efforts on wiki non-POV, but others may not. If everyone involved here would take a step back, take a deep breath, and admit that the world of wiki is plenty big for everyone, things would be a lot calmer. These types of disputes start and go on and on when no one allows room for the other side. I see this not only in the pseudoscience area, but Mid-East, East Europe, Sri Lanka, etc disputes. On top of all this, there's about disagreement about the civility here. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)"...Something has to be done here, this long term situation is highly divisive to the encyclopedic and takes way too admin effort to keep it within harmonic editing boundaries. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Nealparr

Sure, if by "uninvolved administrator" you mean administrators not involved in "pseudoscience and alternative science topics, broadly construed" as a whole, or regularly, rather than a given page at a given time. After years of this madness, Misplaced Pages has collected some ban-happy admins with grudges and axes to grind. I'm sure many of them would love to ban their opponents on content disputes for up to a year. What sort of assurances can one like myself who edits paranormal-related articles as a hobby, not advocacy, be given that the new powers won't be abused? I don't edit war, am civil, but I've irritated admins in the past simply by disagreeing with them in content disputes, particularly that Misplaced Pages can also cover folklore neutrally without having a solely science point-of-view. Some admins adamantly reject that eventhough most agree that such a prospect is entirely neutral. AGF went out the window about two years ago on these topics, so frankly I'm a little concerned.

Paranormal topics aren't just pseudoscience (though they are, in part, that). There's also a historical perspective (eg. Remote viewing was studied by the CIA, UFOs were studied by the Air Force, Parapsychology was once accepted by the elite in society like William James, etc.). Presenting that historical information is sometimes called POV pushing by admins. There's also the sociological perspective (eg. 73 percent of the general US population holds some sort of paranormal belief ). Presenting information regarding just the "beliefs" is sometimes called POV pushing by admins. There's also the cultural, folklore perspective (eg. Spooklights are common in Southern US folklore). Talking about the folklore on those articles is sometimes called POV pushing by admins who say that the article should predominantly be about methane gases, etc. So, yes, there is a potential for abuse based solely on ideologies and old grudges. If the goal is to just to refresh the editor pool on these topics regardless of whether they're productive Wikipedians, that's fine, that goal will be served if no oversight is in place. But if the goal is to only target disruptive editors, there will need to be some sort of oversight.

I'd like to see what DGG mentioned below, a Topic Ban Noticeboard and some degree of practical consensus to prevent a single editor/admin, or ideological group of editors/admins, from going ban-happy. --Nealparr 13:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

per Vassyana's replies on it's intended use. It seems fundamentally wrong that blocking or banning a user, a person, would have less outside discussion than what it takes to delete an article. This is essentially a "speedy delete" applied to a user, in spirit. It's always harder to correct a mistake than it is to prevent a mistake. Community discussion is essential when dealing with users who may not be aware that what they are doing is wrong, and determining what actually is wrong to begin with. That's what RfCs are all about. If the goal is to relieve the burden on the ArbCom, that can be done without dropping the discussions altogether. A very simple way to do that is to say "If after a RfC about applying sanctions on the user, allowing for community input and consensus-building, an uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict." Anything less is setting the bar for deleting a user from a topic lower than deleting a topic itself. The RfC also has the benefit of providing the banning/blocking admin with a summary of the issues surrounding the user so they could make an informed decision. The admin could, of course, in their discretion, interpret the RfC anyway they wish and impose their discretionary sanctions, but at least there'd be a discussion on the matter. --Nealparr 18:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by GRBerry

Concur that this is a good idea, as an admin who is a regular at WP:AE. Editors active in this area should write their comments assuming that their own actions, and those of whom they agree with on content, will be reviewed and possibly sanctioned. I know of multiple editors in each faction who have effectively developed enemy lists of other editors they want banned, which is a bad sign for the ability of the editors in these areas to work together. We need to clear out those who can't or won't work with those who disagree with them so that a reasonable communal editing environment exists for current and future editors. GRBerry 15:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that a strong definition of uninvolved/neutral is needed here. I commend the WP:ARBPIA model - has never been involved in a content dispute on any article in the pseudoscience/paranormal topic area with that topic area broadly construed. GRBerry 17:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
We need more than that. We need a statement of neutrality toward the subjects themselves. I've seen mediators come in and say essentially "Well it's bunk so..." ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 17:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Martinphi

Endorse per everything Nealparr said. I have very little confidence in the ability of admins 1) to be neutral if they are involved and 2) to get it if they are not. Indeed, I have seen editors like Zvika who did my interview struggle with the issues in these cases, and find it nearly impossible (many many hours of work to get up to date). I have seen obviously biased admins who are supposedly "outside" the debates come in and give sanctions. For example, some of those banning people relative to the 9/11 or Homeopathy issues. In other words, I have no fear of neutrality, but I have fear of hidden bias. If even Nealparr is scared, I certainly am, because I've been deionized all over the place irrespective of my actual edits, beliefs, ideas or intent.

I would like an advocate that I can agree is neutral, such as LaraLove or DGG or maybe Vassyana to review things before any action is take against me. Same for others.

I suggest that a committee of truly neutral subject matter experts, or simply editors truly neutral to the subjects be set up to deal with sourcing in paranormal areas. "Do you feel neutral toward issues of the paranormal?" Should be the question. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 16:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by DGG

I think the "endorsements" above show why it might not actually work--the disagreement between different arbitrators over the standards for these articles is fairly complete. Everyone things that they are neutral. I can predict what will happen, which is continual appeals from it, carried on in every forum possible, just as present. And i do not think the problem is that hopeless either, because I think the community is evolving standards. The problem is not individual topics--the problem is what degree of tolerance we should have for disruptive actions by good editors. Personally, I don't think they should get the essentially free ride they have at present.

If we do something of this sort, I would not leave it to individual admins. or editors. What I think we'd need is the equivalent of a topic ban noticeboard, and some degree of practical consensus would be required. I remember the fate of the community ban noticeboard and I'm a little skeptical. DGG (talk) 18:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Seicer

I believe that, if implemented properly, could be an effective tool in finally ending the heated disagreements between the "anti-science" and "pro-science" camps. I do not believe it will lead to an end of hidden bias or blatant bias -- nor should it -- but that the implementation of a topic ban could finally kill the endless attacks against other editors and administrators, and could finally open the door for new editors, with fresh viewpoints and dialogues, to come in and edit.

I'd also like to echo GRBerry's comments above. There are multiple editors who have developed "watch lists" of other editors and administrators that they either want banned, or removed from various positions at Misplaced Pages. I will not go into specifics here regarding that, but it's a statement that's been made numerous times previously, here and elsewhere, and that it is leading to a serious divide in how, as editors and administrators, can resolve this long-standing conflict. I'd like to see a "topic ban noticeboard," but I am afraid that it would fall to either inactivity or hidden bias. seicer | talk | contribs 19:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Kww

I understand the intention, and fear the result. I think that in order to maintain standing as an encyclopedia, we need be more specific, and actually take a side in favor of facts. Discretionary sanctions should be made available, targeted towards editors that make edits stating or implying a factual basis for pseudoscientific or paranormal topics. If we did that for a while, the heat and rancor would die down, because people attempting to corrupt the encyclopedia would eventually be eliminated.Kww (talk) 20:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Tom Butler

Any effort that would make it possible for administrators to more effectively arbitrate content disputes would help. I have been treated as poorly by some admins as I have by some rank and file editors, so I am not in favor of giving any individual admin more authority. Perhaps a cadre of three or five editors would provide protection to both sides.

Lets face it, an arbitration takes way too long, and as I can see, they have hardly any effect except to more clearly define the sides. If an admin blocks an appeal to authority, then the person making the appeal is discredited and the abusive editor becomes more bullet proof. In fact, Misplaced Pages is not able to manage editors who are willing to game the system.

I have only edited on a few paranormal articles so I may be unaware of some of the grievances. Nevertheless, from my viewpoint, it is unrealistic to imagine that it is possible to arbitrate content disputes without deciding on content--not taking sides, but saying what the article will include. I would be comfortable with a venue in which I could present my viewpoint to a panel, editors with a contrary viewpoint could do the same and the panel would decide the article based on their "fair and informed" decision of what was presented. Give each presenter 500 words and ten diffs. I think I could find a way to live with that and I am certainly willing to try. Tom Butler (talk) 00:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Guy, most of us "believers" just want to have the articles you are complaining about explain what the subject is said to be or thought to be without trying to say what you think it is or what you want the public to believe. I would be interested in how you would apply the treatment used for articles on religious beliefs to paranormal articles. For instance, I suspect that not even members of the WikiProject Rational Skepticism would attempt to make Misplaced Pages say that the Catholic Church is not real. Can you apply a similar standard to the EVP article without characterizing as real or not real? Can you just say what it is reported to be? Doing so would certainly stop a lot of the content disputes. Tom Butler (talk) 21:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Jossi

Agree in principle with Vassyana's proposal, with the caveats presented by DGG, that is to have a place in which we can assess some measure of administrators' consensus when applying broad restrictions such as topic bans or blocks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:B

This has too much potential for abuse the way it is worded. Some people consider anything they disagree with to be pseudoscience and would attempt to apply this far beyond its scope. (For example, most evangelical Christians believe in something other than atheistic evolution, therefore someone who edits Bobby Bowden is editing an article on pseudoscience, right?) It needs to be spelled out what this applies to - theories of origin, alternative medicine, paranormal, etc. --B (talk) 17:03, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Baegis

I'm going to have to agree with B on this one. There are some areas which qualify as pseudoscience but which do not need this sort of protection. The ID related articles are stable for the most part, because there are a great number of fine editors who are very active on those pages. They are occasionally disrupted, but not nearly enough for the scope of this proposal to be anything more than a hindrance. The areas that this will apply to need to be better spelled out. There are probably thousands of articles that fall within the pseudoscience area, especially if broadly defined. And if BLP's are included in that, ie the ones of proponents of pseudoscience, there are an even greater number of articles. I would wager that it is pretty clear the the biggest problems lie in the CAM area and the paranormal areas. Focusing on the most problematic areas is a better idea than a big sweeping probation. Baegis (talk) 18:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

There is a long-standing issue with pseudoscience, fringe and paranormal articles. The sources which discuss these subjects are typically either wholly uncritical, or dedicated sceptics. The fact that the mainstream science community does not accept paranormal claims is hard to source, because scientists do not publish papers saying that hokum is hokum. The result is a series of in-universe articles on fictional topics. Added to that, we have believers in these paranormal ideas whose primary function on Misplaced Pages is to attempt to have them documented as reality, not a fringe belief system.

I do believe we can make this work by applying the same methods as are applied in articles on religious belief systems. The article on Saint Alban documents the verifiable facts which are undisputed, being the identity and martyrdom, documented in local Roman records; discusses the mythology of the Holy Well; and discusses the cult of Alban. I think we can document the paranormal belief system in the same way, but we have too many people asserting that it is real. Guy (Help!) 12:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Antelan

My own personal sentiment is that the current options for enforcement have not yet been applied in a stringent way, and should not be broadened until they have been fully tested. That said, I share Vassayana's frustration, and would hope that this will serve to push administrators to use the tools that they have been given. Antelan 17:37, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by John Carter

Given the occasionally contentious nature of the discussions regarding this subject, perhaps it might be possible for the ArbCom to help in the selection of a group of editors who would be able to function in much the same way as the recently created cultural disputes group is supposed to. It might also be useful for some of the religion and pseudoscience content as well, given the often disparate opinions there. Might it be possible to expand the remit of the existing cultural disputes group, and possibly its membership, to include these other matters as well, or alterntely create similar groups for these matters? John Carter (talk) 01:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Filll

Although I understand the desire to come up with a quick fix or a magic bullet here, I do not think that more enforcement is the answer. I have observed how well more enforcement and greater empowerment of admins worked at homeopathy and related articles, and I have to admit I was somewhat underwhelmed. I have also encountered a fair number of administrators who are FRINGE proponents or antiscience themselves, so just giving all administrators more power is not a very well-reasoned response. I would like to see a more measured and careful approach for dealing with this kind of problem, such as those potential options being considered at the discussion lead by User:Raul654 at .--Filll (talk) 20:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Daniel

The Homeopathy discretionary sanctions have passed (by virtue of having six support and one abstention, which reduces the majority to six), and the case is moving towards being closed. Per Kirill below, who said that the Committee was waiting to see which version of discretionary sanctions was prefered, I think the Committee has decided to this effect (the other discretionary sanctions proposal in that case only recieved one support, so the disparity is evident).

Therefore I propose the following motion:

--- START PROPOSED MOTION ---

The following remedy is added to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist:

Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to Pseudoscience, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.

Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.

In determining whether to impose sanctions on a given user and which sanctions to impose, administrators should use their judgment and balance the need to assume good faith and avoid biting genuinely inexperienced editors, and the desire to allow responsible contributors maximum freedom to edit, with the need to reduce edit-warring and misuse of Misplaced Pages as a battleground, so as to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment even on our most contentious articles. Editors wishing to edit in these areas are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Misplaced Pages's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution, neutral point of view, no original research and verifiability) in their editing, and to amend behaviors that are deemed to be of concern by administrators. An editor unable or unwilling to do so may wish to restrict their editing to other topics, in order to avoid sanctions.

Appeals

Sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard (currently Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement), or the Committee. Administrators are cautioned not to reverse such sanctions without familiarizing themselves with the full facts of the matter and engaging in extensive discussion and consensus-building at the administrators' noticeboard or another suitable on-wiki venue. The Committee will consider appropriate remedies including suspension or revocation of adminship in the event of violations.

Uninvolved administrators

For the purpose of imposing sanctions under this provision, an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she is not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions. Enforcing the provisions of this decision will not be considered to be participation in a dispute. Any doubt regarding whether an administrator qualifies under this definition is to be treated as any other appeal of sanctions.

Logging

All sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision are to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#Log of blocks and bans.

--- END PROPOSED MOTION ---

Regards, Daniel (talk) 01:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Messedrocker

Do we seriously need a horse and pony show over this? The fact of the matter is, the encyclopedia comes first. In an encyclopedia, established facts backed up by evidence comes first. Scientific academia is making a more significant effort than the alternative to adhere to the scientific method and prove their stuff (through a rigorous review by envious researchers who want to do no more than to destroy other researchers). Alternative thought still has a place in articles, but while it still is alternative, then it should be regarded as such. Violations of the principle of undue weight should be treated with editorial treatment so that due weight is restored. People should be blocked from editing articles when their edits are more trouble than it's worth. MessedRocker (talk) 02:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

Proposed motions and voting

Discretionary sanctions

Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to pseudoscience, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.

Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.

In determining whether to impose sanctions on a given user and which sanctions to impose, administrators should use their judgment and balance the need to assume good faith and avoid biting genuinely inexperienced editors, and the desire to allow responsible contributors maximum freedom to edit, with the need to reduce edit-warring and misuse of Misplaced Pages as a battleground, so as to create an acceptable collaborative editing environment even on our most contentious articles. Editors wishing to edit in these areas are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Misplaced Pages's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution, neutral point of view, no original research and verifiability) in their editing, and to amend behaviors that are deemed to be of concern by administrators. An editor unable or unwilling to do so may wish to restrict their editing to other topics, in order to avoid sanctions.

Appeals

Sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard (currently Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement), or the Committee. Administrators are cautioned not to reverse such sanctions without familiarizing themselves with the full facts of the matter and engaging in extensive discussion and consensus-building at the administrators' noticeboard or another suitable on-wiki venue. The Committee will consider appropriate remedies including suspension or revocation of adminship in the event of violations.

Uninvolved administrators

For the purpose of imposing sanctions under this provision, an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she is not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions. Enforcing the provisions of this decision will not be considered to be participation in a dispute. Any doubt regarding whether an administrator qualifies under this definition is to be treated as any other appeal of sanctions.

Logging

All sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision are to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#Log of blocks and bans.

Other provisions

This provision does not affect any existing provisions of the case.

There are 11 active arbitrators, so six votes are a majority.
Support:
  1. Proposed as promised; wording is taken from the (currently) passing version in Homeopathy. Kirill 01:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
  2. Using the preferred wording. FloNight♥♥♥ 13:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Oppose:
Abstain:
Categories: