Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk | contribs) at 18:25, 18 July 2008 (→The false map of the Slavic dialects in Greece: confirmed). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Note: If you leave a message here I will most often respond here

Greece and Epirus, Kosovo Vandalism

I had written some real facts about Greece, Epirus and Kosovo.

Greece facts proven by BBC and CNN reports. Epirus facts true from many years, reported by historian and discovered in a research in 2005. Kosovo is INCORRECTLY spelled, since It's populated with Albanians, it IS THE RIGHT OF ALBANIANS TO NAME IT, and it's real name is KosovA!

I'm very dissappointed with your service, you are unable to verify real facts and just remove what you think not true, I want to contribute but in this circumstances it is IMPOSSIBLE!

AND THIS http://my.telegraph.co.uk/f_off_telegraph_censors/may_2008/country_list_of_most_homosexuals_born_live.htm IS A SERIOUS TELEGRAPH! HOW THE HELL YOU KNOW THAT IT ISN'T? GO GET A LIFE, MAN!

Criticism

I am really having problem with vandals and your criticism. see this Rjecina

Dodona apology

Dodona is back , in fact i have been around , i came to apologias specially to you because i feel guilty somehow truly , we had a Besa and i broke it because i though you were just misleading me ( and you were somehow..) . I truly i am no matter if decide to release my account or not ...Any way i think also you had a role in my blocking.Could this situation change?? you need another hand to improve Arvanites without me the view would be mediocre

POV pusher and vandal!

Hi Future. How are yow? Here are two, but I suppose one and the same unregistred, annonimous POV pusher and vandal, who writes from two different IP-s :85.103.254.227 and 195.174.21.72. He repetidly deletes chapters from Turkish people and texts from Turkic peoples and denies to talk with other editors anywhere - on his talkpage or on the talkpage from the articles, or to explain his strange behaviour. Only blind reverts, even against Britannica. Please help! Regards! Jingby (talk) 15:24, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

The vandalism and sockpupetry on Turkic peoples are going on! Regards! Jingby (talk) 06:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism again!!! It have to be stopped! Jingby (talk) 14:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

And again trough sockpuppet! Jingby (talk) 14:36, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello

Hi Future! I have just seen the conversation between you and Raso and between Raso and thet BG guy. First of all, your block is not supported in any way. Ra[o did not atacked the BG guy at all, but Raso has been commenting the actual behaviour of the BG guy (and it is true, Laveol is just working to offend and manipulate the Macedonian articles). I think thet he is accused of something thet is not real, Laveol was not atacked at all (he was not called TATAR or TSIGAN or whatever)Laveols behavior is really anoying because he is reverting every article about Macedonia and make them as he wants. This is not fair at all, so I think Raso should be unblocked and laveol should finally stop with his propaganda. Reagrds --MacedonianBoy (talk) 18:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC) PS:If you did not understand or read the Macedonian version of Raso, we will translate it!

Why there is no comment about my point of view?--MacedonianBoy (talk) 14:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Offending

Hello! I want to inform you of some personal offendings adressed to me by the User:3rdAlcove. This word FYROMite is very offending and it is not civilized. He desirves to be blocked, because he is offending me, my ethnicity and my identity. His irredentism and nationalism are too much. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 19:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I've left a message on his talk page. Please let me know if he continues to be incivil (and please don't attempt to provoke him). -- ChrisO (talk) 19:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Epirote pot-stirring

Fut. Perfect, please be aware of the new editor User:Omadae1 engaging in some POV editing on Epiros-related articles. I have reverted him several times but would appreciate a second opinion. Thanks, Aramgar (talk) 19:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

The ip User:66.159.173.253 made the same tendentious changes to Epirus (region) today. Aramgar (talk) 13:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Panathinaikos FC

Hey, you see we are currently in a transfer period and many unregistered users keep on adding players that have not been officially announced by the team. I have tried to tell them to refrain from adding them back to the team roster by explaining in the edit summary but they just insist. I also tried to settle the issue on the article's talk page but no one will bother discussing. You can see the edit wars and all the reverts not only by me but by other established users on the article's history. For the above reason i would like to ask you to semi protect the page for a short period. Thanks. Sergiogr (talk) 20:36, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Complicated legal threat situation: blocking

Dear and very learned: Future Perfect at Sunrise , I'd herewith kindly request the unblocking of my well refined colleague dr.user:Guido den Broeder MS, who here apparently at present is innocent blocked up by you, though already by the same mistake in the Netherlands too. His tiny protest against this unfortunate execution is by some of your colleagues alas expressed with rather exaggeration. Hoping to revision of your verdict still being possible, I'll remain sincerely Yrs: D.A.Borgdorff - PEng E.E. = 86.83.155.44 (talk) 12:10, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Bonus

Wiki, mail and now Skype. At least I figured out how they got my name and address. --Laveol 19:02, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Meh, I'm tempted to ban this chap from all Balkans articles for a good while. Even without this, his recent editing has been very shoddy. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 19:27, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

See the discussion on my talk page. Not exactly inspiring. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:49, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

What Skype has to do with Misplaced Pages? You cannot control what I am doing outside Misplaced Pages. If I said something like that on Misplaced Pages than it is ok, but now?! This is becoming too rediculous. And have you ever see the destruptive edits of the Greek guys or the BG guys? Where is the neutrality? You in EU know what is equality. --MacedonianBoy (talk) 19:51, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Off-wiki harassment is certainly blockable, if there's a persistent pattern, which seems to be the case here. Laveol, was this an unsolicited contact by M.B. over Skype, and did it start right off with that insult? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking at it, it seems to have been initiated by MB but only picked up by Laveol some four hours later. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Mhm, I turned on my skype and saw a message a**hole. I answered it and he answered back. Only later I saw it was from 4 hours back. No previous messages from him or any other wiki user on Skype. But now I see where they got my name and home city from. I guess there aren't tons of Laveols out there. --Laveol 22:19, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Some help, when you get the time

Hi, Fut.Perf! I initially asked Moreschi about this, but he bounced me over to you because you have more experience in the trenches with the Japan-Korea nonsense. This discussion provides a bit of background - basically, one of our few good article writers on the martial arts articles is at his wit's end trying to handle a protracted conflict on Taekwondo, and isn't getting help anywhere. My initial read is that the Japanese side needs to be smacked on the wrists and the Korean side stomped on pretty good, but don't have the time to investigate myself - can you kindly throw me a favor here? east.718 at 03:17, July 14, 2008

Hmm, I haven't got much time either, but your initial interpretation seems to make sense. You know, the First Rule of Admindokwan is relevant here: Block Wisely, Block Quickly, Block First, Ask Questions Later.

I just note the article seems to have been relatively quiet for the last few days. Is there an issue somewhere else that requires immediate intervention now? Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

It appears that I've gone and made a fool of myself now. I've been meaning to ask you about this for a week, but have been slacking for various reasons (and didn't notice that one party is MIA). I don't think there's any immediate intervention required, so thanks for looking into this. east.718 at 17:19, July 14, 2008

Hey

How are you? Would you mind filling me in on the last two weeks when you have time? The place may (or may not) have gone to hell.....BalkanFever 11:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Could please take a look at Ser-Drama-Lagadin-Nevrokop dialect. Your knowledge in this area is way better than mine, and I would assume also than that of VMORO. BalkanFever 12:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Lots of extremely tendentious wording there. Of course the linguistic information as such is okay and should be merged with the previous version. But the historical background section is blatant coatracking (this is supposed to be about the dialect, not the history of Greek Macedonia), and the discussion of the various scholarly positions in the lead is blatantly tendentious OR. Needs a lot of cleanup. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

That's what I'm trying to say, but I may have been a bit uncivil in my wording. Anyway he told Laveol he bases it mostly on Friedman and some guy Stoykov, and therefore he's 100% neutral (!?) I'm going to do a bit of work on the intro. BalkanFever 13:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

A request for the arbcom to examine the Guideo den Broeder situation

G'day - I'm dropping this note in to you because earlier today I responded to a request to file a request for arbitration. My examination of events led me to believe that there may be some use in the arbcom examining this matter, and perchance resolving an issue or two, and you have been named as an 'Involved Party'. As such, your thoughts would be most welcome at the Request page.

Yours rather nervously to be wearing a clerk-ish hat for the first time,

PM - Privatemusings (talk) 23:38, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi FPaS - I thought I'd also drop you a note as the current blocking admin to point you to GdB's request to be unblocked solely to participate in the arbcom request / process - I think that could be a good idea? cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 00:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

If you must, no problem. I don't really see why there's a need for an arbcom case though, the case still seems open-and-shut to me. He made not just a legal threat, he actually went through with it and started litigation, apparently. For some reason I don't quite follow, he seems to think that makes his position here better rather than even worse. – By the way, "clerkish hat"? You seem to be very clearly a party to the case now, you can't clerk it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:46, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Luckily I'm neither an arbcom clerk nor an admin, FP! - I was just a bit nervous to be leaving messages about an arb case to so many people, and on the unblocking front just thought it was a sensible idea - I'll leave it to your discretion. In terms of the merits of a possible case, I think there might be some benefit to arbcom taking a look at the broader issues.. time will tell though, I guess... cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 06:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

ps - would your answer to "Should a user taking legal action against another Wikimedia user be blocked here on the english wikipedia whilst the action is ongoing?" probably be 'yes' too? just wondering, because the arb.s seem to be saying 'no' at the mo.... :-) cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 06:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, not sure what part of the Arbs' response you are referring to. To me, the answer seems indeed very clear. In the case of a user taking legal action on the basis of a conflict on en-wiki, that's simply the policy as it's always been; in the case of a conflict imported from another part of Wikimedia the common-sense qualification would seem to be: yes, if the users in question have been interacting on en-wiki in the same roles and identities and under the same set of parameters as on the wiki where the conflict originated. Let me phrase it in terms of "wearing hats", since you brought up hats: If the two users in question had shown that they can work with each other differently when wearing their en-wiki hats than when wearing their nl-wiki hats, it'd be different. But they don't seem to be distinguishing their hats in this way. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Alexander the Great (disambiguation)

Your edits for Alexander the Great (disambiguation) go against the WP:Consensus. Further edits from this account will be considered repeat vandalism and will be treated as such. Please follow Misplaced Pages's policies when editing articles, which includes disambiguation pages. Thank you. --ž¥łǿχ (ŧäłķ | čøŋŧřīъ§) 12:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUS is expressed at WP:MOSDAB. Good luck accusing me of vandalism. Are you going to report me at WP:AIV? Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to assume your well-wishing is not sarcastic. I've responded further on my talk page. Thank you. --ž¥łǿχ (ŧäłķ | čøŋŧřīъ§) 13:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Hallo

Nope, I am none of these VMORO 14:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Disinfo on Albania-related articles

FutPerf, because I didn't know where to write the following complaint, I decided to add it to your talk page, given that you are an admin (?).

I have been reviewing every Albania-related article in the English Misplaced Pages, and I found several articles containing disinformation and lack of NPOV sources. One in particular, which I would like to discuss specifically, is the article related to a village situated in Albania, namely the Kato Lesinitsa village. First off, the name of the village is in Greek language. Now, because Greek is not an official language in the Republic of Albania, I don't see why it's not written with its official Albanian name - Leshnica. Second, the village is situated within the borders of Albania. Because it is very close to the Greek border, certain Greek Wikipedians have edited the article in such a way that an ignorant Misplaced Pages reader would think the village is in Greece, which is not the case. Based on these arguments, I decided to modify the article to pertain to the NPOV, and I also added a new point on the talk page briefly explaining my intention. Having placed that page on my watchlist, I noticed that user User:The Cat and the Owl had undone my revision, even though I did explain my reasons on the talk page. Naturally, I reverted his edits.

This is a very specific example of disinformation, but I notice it's common on most of the articles related to cities, villages, issues, etc. of Southern Albania, which borders Greece. While I am aware of the historical facts of both sides, I strongly believe that a biased set of references from either side does not contribute to the Misplaced Pages NPOV.

If there is a specific Misplaced Pages page where I can place certain discussions, please let me know.

--_Arbër 20:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Falsification again

Seems to be happening in Maleševo-Pirin dialect. BalkanFever 01:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the accusations of falsification I find VMORO's edits on this particular article pretty justified and NPOV. I already tried to explain that there are two (now one) dialect currently - one of Bulgarian language and one of Macedonian. I even think there should be two articles on it since for the past 60 years the people in the two regions have changed the way they talk as they were living in two different countries trying to promote their own standart language. That's what VMORO has written in the article - he has not removed any tags, nor the mention that the dialect is a dialect of Macedonian, so what seems to be the problem? Have you already checked the sources btw? --Laveol 08:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

He tries to word it so that the fact that it is Macedonian looks like a fringe view, and he moves the refs away from Macedonian to Bulgarian to "prove" this. I really don't think Schmeiger actually said anything about Maleševo-Pirin (let alone how Bulgarian it apparently is) in "The situation of the Macedonian language in Greece: sociolinguistic analysis". Tell me, what kind of bullshit is that? BalkanFever 08:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Better than the previous bullshit in which all dialects in the region of Macedonia were described as Macedonian - the dream of the irredentist, ey?! He at least leaves place for other languages to exist. --Laveol 10:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I never said the dialects weren't transitional. Get a dictionary and maybe you'll understand. And no, the guy whose ass you're kissing doesn't "leave place for other languages to exist", he deliberately makes facts he doesn't like look like fringe views. BalkanFever 10:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm telling you what the article said and not what you were saying. We're both not linguists and we're more or less insinuating here. And I'd appreciate it if you don't use words like "the guy whose ass you're kissin". I suggest we continue this on another talkpage (choose mine or yours)--Laveol 10:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Speedy delete

Hello can you please take care of this speedy delete. Looks like a test page, you decide. Thanks Monster Under Your Bed 08:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Jingiby

Broke his topic-ban here. BalkanFever 08:42, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

How interestingly! Jingby (talk) 09:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Knonis

Hi, this user now seems to be discussing constructively and I think the edit-warring situation is more or less resolved. Don't know if you noticed, but I had actually reported him and then retracted the report shortly before you blocked. A case for leniency? It also turns out the image contribution was okay after all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Unblocked. Stifle (talk) 11:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Dodona

Can anything be done about that guy? He keeps posting his nonsensical comments in article and talk space under Macedoni from Korca and various IPs 80.78.64.246, 80.91.122.11 etc. 3rdAlcove (talk) 11:32, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Yet another: Arianitasi. Could you do anything about it or should I just ask another admin who will need an explanation going back to 2007? 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:28, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Korean War Crimes

Future.

I was the initial author of this topic. I used the reference that I gave at the bottom of the article from the original academic papers.

I know your statement not to be true. Dealing with such specific cases, it is impossible not to use the same language and using quotation where accredited is not WP:Copyvio.

If I am incorrect, please provide the 3 or 4 internet pages you refer to.

I cant comment on how it stood at the point your deleted it, as you have removed the history but there were 11 votes for and 2 against.

I am sorry but where policy states specific material only I have to challenge your action. --Ex-oneatf (talk) 13:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, you are wrong. It is "impossible not to use the same language"? Take an academic writing class at your friendly local university, quick. It is very much possible, and in fact crucial, to use your own language. Otherwise you are committing plagiarism. When I see texts like that in a student's paper they get a fail mark, if I see it from a wiki editor they get speedy deletion.

By the way, my deletion was entirely independent of the spectrum of opinions on the AfD, it was a Speedy deletion.

For the record, here's a few representative samples of how you plagiarised:

And it goes on and on like that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Can I add something on the user's conduct? Whenever this self-claim newbie refers to me, he writes like Appletrees (talk · contribs)/Caspian blue (talk · contribs) with insulting bashing, as if I was using a sock or doing something wrong. So I said to Ex-oneatf to refrain doing that and does not listen to this. Besides, he copy-pastes the same comment here and there (even a cooperatvie member of one of projects that I've engaged in as a promotion. The editor is clearly gaming the Wiki rule as claiming that sources are referenced. However the only inline citations I found are bogus and the article is copyvio. I cann't assume good faith.--Caspian blue (talk) 14:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The user did not add weblinks that he uses, I wonder why. That made editors unable to confirm the sources. The two of them above are not even reliable sites.--Caspian blue (talk) 14:25, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Deletion review for Korean war crimes

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Korean war crimes. Since you closed the deletion discussion for this article, speedy-deleted it, or were otherwise interested in the article, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Ex-oneatf (talk) 15:02, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

As a rule I dont use websites unless you call Jstor etc websites.

Future,

The topic is exact title of at least one major academic work, obviously referenced in many. I think you are jumping to conclusions here.

• The vets page you link to I had not seen. Actually it uses the same declassified government document as I referenced, the Philip D. Chinnery report which is why it is the same.
• The Scofield quotation was referenced at the bottom of the page.
• The Gittings quotation was referenced at the bottom of the page.
• Ditto the blog, again it is quoting the same original reference as I quoted. That does not equate to me quoting it.

and it goes on ... just because some blog quotes the same quote, it does not mean I saw it. All the orignal references I used were listed at the bottom of the article.

I already accepted the need to place the quotation in inline citation as requested and had marked the article inuse. You would need to more specific about the narrative element you critize.

You are quite correct, the problem with addressing contentious issue if one interprets the data, one is then accused of "original research" and so I use short, referenced citations where there can be no accusation of synthesis etc.

I can re-work all the quotation into inline citation as requested but I would like the discussion and history restored please.

I have used the copies for raising a question as above and at Media copyright questions. I will knock out a barebones article to act as a holding page shortly. Thank you. --Ex-oneatf (talk) 15:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I am continuing to work on it here. http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Ex-oneatf/Korean_war_crimes2.

I would appreciate your comments. --Ex-oneatf (talk) 16:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not enough for the references to be provided. You must write your own text. Taking over the sentence structure, choice of words and/or progression of ideas from a source is and always will be plagiarism. The only alternative is to mark something as a direct quote, but of course you can't have an article that just consists of direct quotes from start to finish, as yours would have to be. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

User:ArberBorici and ethnic "purity"

Hello FP,

User:ArberBorici has lately embarked on a campaign to remove any foreign names and pretty much anything foreign in Albanian geography articles on the sole grounds that "these languages are not official, therefore they should be removed". I keep telling him that Misplaced Pages is not about official policy, but he pretends he doesn't hear it and carries on regardless. Would you please be so kind as to weigh in on the discussion in Talk:Albania? Even more disturbing I find this edit here , which makes his agenda pretty clear. Not to mention this edit here , which is pure WP:POINT by even his own admission . The discussion in Talk:Albania has degenerated into farce, with even our old friends Dodona chiming in. Thank you. --Tsourkpk (talk) 15:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It never ceases to astonish me how easily people get their sense of appropriateness skewed by their national partisanship.

• "I want our name on their article! There's our minority that lives there!" — "You can't have your name on our article! Your minority sucks/is non-existent/lacks offical recognition/has no right to be there/no longer lives there because we drove them out and happily got rid of them!
• "If you can have your name on our article, I will force our name on your article!
• "If you remove our name from your article, I will remove your name from our article!
• "I just wanted to put our name on his article. But then he violated WP:POINT by putting his name on ours!"
• "I just wanted to remove their name from our article. But then he violated WP:POINT by removing our name from theirs!"

I keep hearing people shouting one or other of these all over the place, in all possible combinations, time and time again. I hope you can at least see that they are all five of them equally idiotic. He's just taken one of these positions, so he loses. And you have just taken another of them, so you lose too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:33, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you please tell me which position I "took" because it is not clear to me. Did I remove the Albanian name from Ioannina? No. Did I remove the Slavic name from Florina? No. Did I remove the Turkish name from Komotini? No. Did I remove sourced material from an article because I didn't like it? No. In fact, I only remove names from the lead in extreme cases, such as the Turkish name from places such as Corinth and Tripoli. In any case, it is quite clear you are not interested in resolving this dispute, so thank you for your time and have a nice day. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course, the position you just exemplified was #4 in the list above. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:03, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

You are mistaken. I didn't put any names in any articles. I merely added refs and re-instated sourced material that the other guy removed for no good reason. Did you even look at my contribs log before attempting to belittle me? And your #4 doesn't make sense to begin with, because WP:POINT is disruptive behavior, period. There is nothing wrong with calling someone on it, especially when I did not engage in such behavior myself. You're an admin. I shouldn't have to tell you this. --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I always strive for an NPOV. This may sound naive to some, but that's a fact, and almost true, as facts tend to be. Now, the administrator has given five classes of what he calls idiotic, and what I prefer to call part of the idiocracy that is embarking on Misplaced Pages. In fact, I hardly see myself in any of those categorizations because every attempt of mine is to ameliorate the facts in articles related not only to Albania (my homeland). It takes, of course, a high degree of seriousness to comprehend that. No wonder Misplaced Pages becomes an object of criticism from time to time, which I always tend to counter-argument.--_Arbër 17:46, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

How exactly does this edit of yours ] "ameliorate" the article in question? Care to explain? Not to mention your other POINTish edits on Ioannina Prefecture --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

someone being rude

Just to let you know that an anonymous editor has left an edit summary on cy: which appears to be a comment aimed against yourself. See: — Alan 18:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The false map of the Slavic dialects in Greece

Dear Future perfect at sunrise

At first i want apologize for my attempt to vandalize the map <Slavic dialects of Greece> ] but let me explain why i did it.This map shows almost the half of Greek Macedonia inhabited by people who speaks Slavic dialects,either Bulgarian or <Slavomacedonian> and this has nothing to do with reality.If you notice the same article of Misplaced Pages,you'll find that the total number of the speakers of Slavic dialects in Greek Macedonia is estimated between 41.000,according to the Greek census and 230.000 according to the UCLA website: Why should we accept this exaggerated number(230.000) as true,and not the first(40.000)?If you read this wikipedia article below,you'll see that according to the Greek Helsinki Monitor, <there are about 10,000-30,000 ethnic Slav Macedonians living in Greece> ] This number seems to be more reasonable,since many of the Slavic-speaking people after 1951 abandoned these dialects (especially the young generations)and many others migrated to USA,Canada,Australia e.t.c.So,it looks more possible that the number of the Slavic speakers was decreased during last 60 years.Notice also in the same article that the political party of the Slav-Macedonians in Greece (Vinozito)received 7.300 votes in 1994, and 2.955 votes in the 2004 elections for the European Parliament in the region of Macedonia,if this tells something about the number of the Slavic-speakers.But even if we accept the number of 230.000,the total population of Greek Macedonia is 2.400.000 people : ] That means,the Slavic-speakers consist a 10% of the total population,if we accept their true number as 230.000.Now,tell me,my friend,how is this 10% depicted in this map?Doesn't create this map the immpression to someone who doesn't know something about the area,that over than the half of Greek Macedonia's population is consisted of Slavic-speakers.Is that fair or accurate?Isn't this map <political motivated> and biased?Even territories and cities where Slavic was never spoken,are shown in this map as Slavic-speaking areas,like Veria,Kozani,Drama,Serres e.t.c.I'm descending from a village 17 km easterly of Serres,named Emmanouel Papas.The village took his name after the homonymous hero,< prominent member of Filiki Etaireia and leader of the Greek War of Independence in Macedonia>,who was born there in 1773. ] And now i see in this map that we are all <Slavic-speakers>?Not to note what suffered the people of these regions by the Bulgarians during the 2 World wars.Only from my village 90 men died as hostages in Bulgarian soil,because they denied to rennounce their Greekness and didn't stop speaking Greek.After all this,wouldn't you consider this map as the bigest insult against your history?2.400.000 Greek Macedonians feel very insulted by this map of shame and they hope that you will restore the historical truth and justice.

                        Again my sincere apology for the vandalism
                                                     Best regards
                                                      --ΦΔ (talk) 23:25, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Read the relevant discussions. You are wilfully misreading that map. I'll quote myself from one of the discussions where we went through this a hundred times: "This isn't about "majorities". It's a dialect map, not a demographic map. Showing some place in a certain color doesn't mean that place is inhabited by a Slavic majority; it only means that whatever Slavic dialects are there (or were there), share some distinctive structural features with those of other places shown in the same colour. How many or how few speakers are there, or indeed whether any such speakers are left at all now, is immaterial." And now cut the nationalist crap and back off. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not misreading the map!The map falsificates deliberately the truth,since it shows Slavic speakers residing in many territories of Greek Macedonia where Slavic languages were never spoken and Slavic speakers never stepped foot.Just watch all these maps: ] ] http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/Volker_und_Sprachenkarte_der_Balkan.jpg] http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/Macedonia_-_Point_of_View_of_the_Se.jpg] http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/Ethnographic_Map_of_Turkey_in_Europ.jpg] http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/Balkans-ethnic1877.jpg] If you compare all these maps with the current map of wikipedia: ] and you'll easily conclude that this map exaggerates the territories where Slavic dialects are spoken.Even those regions where 90-100 years ago where inhabited by Turks,who were after 1922 and the population exchange treaty between Greece and Tyrkey replaced by Greek refuges form Asia Minor,are shown in this map as territories with Slavic-speakers.So,what can be considered as nationalistic crap? My opinion which agrees with the mainstream view which is expressed by unbiased professors and geographers of various nationalities,or a <self made>!!! map that is grounded on the theories of a book published by some authors from FYROM?I don't think there is a need for further explanation about the relations between the terms <historical truth>,<scientistic doumentation>,<impartial view> and <author from FYROM>.I really wonder how you allowed someone to post such a propagandistic self made map,without to check out first whether this map depicts or distorts reality.If you read about the source of this map,you'll find that it's < self-made, data after a map in Z. Topolińska and B. Vidoeski (1984), Polski-macedonski gramatyka konfrontatiwna, z.1, PAN. cf. Similar maps in V. Friedman, "Macedonian", SEELRC 2001 ; and V. Friedman, "Macedonian", in: B. Comrie and G. Corbett (eds.), The Slavonic Languages, New York: Routledge, p. 247; citing in turn K. Koneski Pravopisen rečnik na makedonskiot literaturen jazik. Skopje: Prosvetno delo 1999.> The quote of V.Friedman's book is obvious a very cunning attempt to give an impartial tone to this map,because this book hasn't any simmilar map!The only map i found there is in page 77,but it's very different.

                                            Best regards
                                             --ΦΔ (talk) 10:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. The map reproduces exactly the information given by Koneski and Friedman. The map is "self-made" only with respect to its graphical realisation (which is what we are obliged to do by our project policies, in order to have free content only.) The sources were the best I could find. If the map diverges from its sources in some significant detail, let me know; otherwise shut up and go away. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Who do you think you are?Who gave you the right for such an audacious attitude?Did i ever tell you <shut up > or <go away> ? I can't accept such insults by anyone!And yes,your map isn't just diverging from its sources,it isn't grounded on anyone unbiased and neutral source,since:1)You don't give any link for the first source,the book <Polski-macedonski gramatyka konfrontatiwna> by Z. Topolińska and B. Vidoeski (1984).Not to note that it isn't written in English and,the most important,both the authors are from FYROM,so an objective and neutral observer could never consider this book as impartial and quote it as testimony in a dispute between Greece and FYROM. 2)Exactly the same goes for your second source: <Pravopisen rečnik na makedonskiot literaturen jazik. Skopje: Prosvetno delo 1999>.Again a book written by an author from FYROM,again no one link to this book. 3)Your third source is this time objective and neutral,the book <Macedonian> by V.Friedman ] where you claim that you found <similar maps>,but i found only one map in page 77 after the research i made: http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/Scan0001.gif] Now compare this map with the map that you created and uploaded: ] and tell me if anyone unbiased person will not conclude that your map hasn't any simmilarity with V.Friedmans map.You said that your map <is "self-made" only with respect to its graphical realisation> and also it <reproduces exactly the information given by Koneski and Friedman.> As for Koneski's information,i wrote above about their reliability.As for the informations from Friedman's map can you explain me,where the hell writes Friedman that the Slavic dialects are spoken in almost the entire region of Serres,Drama,Veria and Kozani,as your map shows?(especially the last 3 cities aren't even mentioned in Friedmans map!)

                                          --ΦΔ (talk) 16:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Your insinuation that any publication by Macedonian authors is ipso facto unreliable is laughable. We are talking about their language, of course a significant part of the relevant scholarship will come from them; Friedman, who you yourself accept as reliable and neutral, in turn relies himself on Koneski. My main model was this map from Koneski. So, your meat is that Friedman shows a few kilometers less towards the southeast? Well, if you want to do something constructive, go and find out why this might be. Does Friedman write anything anywhere why he makes that choice? If you can't argue on that level, I repeat, be so kind as to leave me alone. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

FPS' method of defending his creation seems unreasonable. He had asked for examples of maps showing other 'boundaries'. Here, some have been provided by ΦΔ. So now his argument shifts to referring us to 2 auhors, Koneski and Friedman. In fact, other maps from the 20th century, show even small areas. FPS's arguments hinge on the irredentist - something we can assume he himself abhors. The Bulgarians have just as many, if not more historical reason to consider those dialects as part of their Bulgarian Slavic continuum. The map has to change based on all the evidence. I suggest ΦΔ that you modify the map - it has no copyright and reduce it to its proper size. Politis (talk) 17:48, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

How many of those maps provided are about linguistics? You call Koneski an irredentist simply because he's Macedonian? Please. Both of you (Phi-Delta and Politis) should stop embarrassing yourselves, since it's evident that you know nothing about linguistics, let alone Macedonian dialectology. BalkanFever 18:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Politis, the (tiny) discrepancy between Koneski's and Friedman's maps that F.D. just pointed out is unrelated to any point of criticism that has been brought forward here in the discussions of my map; certainly to the issues you raised. Did you even look at the two source maps? Did you make any effort at all to understand what significance that difference might have? In fact, we don't even have any evidence so far that it is significant at all; Friedman's map is technically amateurish and since he ostensibly bases his map on Koneski's but doesn't then actually account for this small difference, we have no way of telling whether he actually meant to position himself differently from Koneski or not. The question is moot unless someone brings actual linguistic data. Does the Drama dialect differ significantly from the Serres dialect, yes or no? What isogloss, if any, runs between them? If you are not interested in finding out the answer to this question, why should I discuss anything with you? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, our article on the Ser-Drama-Nevrokop dialect (which is the bit under discussion here, in case you still didn't look at the map) has a statement sourced to a Bulgarian author, saying that "the Serres-Nevrokop dialect was estimated to include the regions of Serres, Drama, Nevrokop and a small part of the Thessaloniki region". So, yes, we have independent confirmation that it's correct to include Drama within the same dialect area as Serres. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Petar Stoychev

There are two articles about him: Petar Stoychev and Petar Stoichev. Maybe it will be better to merge them in one! Regards!Jingby (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Schmeiger

Do you have his book The situation of the Macedonian language in Greece: sociolinguistic analysis? VMORO is using it as a source that Maleševo-Pirin is a dialect of Bulgarian, and to affirm that this "Blagoevgrad-Petrich" is Bulgarian. I have doubts, considering the book is about Macedonian, in Greece, not in RoM, and not about Bulgarian.

Also, he uses Trudgill to source that the dialect is Bulgarian but not Macedonian, even though Trudgill clearly states that in Bulgaria the language of its citizens is considered Bulgarian, and in Macedonia the language of its citizens is considered Macedonian, without (AFAICT) referring to Maleševo-Pirin (or Blagoevgrad-Petrich) at all.

Furthermore, he uses Roland Sussex and Paul Cubberley's The Slavic languages to source the Bulgarian-ness of Maleševo-Pirin, even though "Pirin" appears only once (p. 510), where it states it is transitional. The words Blagoevgrad and Petrich don't appear at all, yet it is used as a source for that too.

Please take a look, as this looks like a serious sourcing problem. BalkanFever 08:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I haven't got access to the Schmieger text right now; I have only the quote that somebody put on the "...in Greece" page some time ago. I could probably find it somewhere if I found the time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:01, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, it might be worth looking at Trudgill's Greece and European Turkey: From Religious to Linguistic Identity too (again, really doubt mentions of Bulgaria and RoM). The Sussex book (and the page cited, 510) is in the Google Book preview. Thanks. BalkanFever 09:47, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Question

Would you care to remind me how to upload a picture? I want to insert it in the Permet article. It shows an ancient tumulus during excavation and comes from: Zhaneta Andrea, "Archaeology in Albania, 1973-83", Archaeological Reports, No. 30, (1983 - 1984), p. 115. The site has now been reburried for conservation so there is no way to go there and take a snapshot. I want to use it as a visual illustration of the necropolis mentioned in the article. As I already explained it is not replacable since the excavation site is no longer accessible. BTW the article still reads more like a tourist leaflet. The editors seem more preoccupied with the constant bickering over the name... --Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 10:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Tried something, please have a look and tell me if it is OK http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Burrial_Tumulus_at_Pliscova.JPG --Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 11:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Shit... Just found out that the site was not reburried... how can I delete it?--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 11:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, okay, pity about your efforts, but thanks for being so careful about it. I'll delete it then. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Sigh... thanks anyway. And sorry for the mess--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 12:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

One link per line

I do not know on which article you had this disagreement with 157etc., and I do not intend to comment on the edit-warring issue, but where is this "rule" "one link per line"? I know the MoS "recommendations" "avoid ovewikilinking" or "do not wikilink articles already wikilinked", but the aforementioned rule I have never heard of. Cheers!--Yannismarou (talk) 12:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

It's specifically about dab pages, not normal articles. Dab pages should only have wikilinks to the actual target articles that are being disambiguated, not any other words used in the definitions. Somewhere at WP:MOSDAB. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, ok! Sorry and thanks for the info!--Yannismarou (talk) 16:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Confused

What did I do? This evening I just came back from a short holiday, and I discover that I have been blocked, and that block had already expired. Since I am not aware of any of the accused action before my wikibreak, and your message was equivocal, I want an explanation.Xasha (talk) 18:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

See here the explanation. --Olahus (talk) 18:47, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

So I was sentenced in absentia? How nice of you telling everybody about it, except me.Xasha (talk) 19:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey, aren't you glad you were blocked at a time you were away anyway? You're a lucky guy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The next time Olahus harrases me and accuses me behind my back, he'll point to my block log and say "Look! He's evil! A respectable admin blocked him!". So I'm not glad. Moreover, I would want to know if I still have to abid to WP:3RR, cause it seems that's become obsolete.Xasha (talk) 19:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Given the fact that you both have gone immediately back to revert-warring in exactly the same way, I'd say: "Stop digging" would be pretty sound advice. Goes for both of you. No, just keeping below 3R is definitely not safe. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

This guy is following me everywhere and reverting me. That's clearly harassment. Wtf I'm supposed to do?Xasha (talk) 21:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Xasha, edits like this are necessary. You seem to ignore WP:NPOV#Undue weight. I'm gonna cite you :"NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, a view of a distinct minority." Xasha, I hope you understand what I mean. If you still, don't understand, let's discuss the issue in the talk page of the article. --Olahus (talk) 21:28, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Srbosjek

I am calling you to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Srbosjek (knife) (2nd nomination) discussion. It will be nice to hear thinking of somebody who is not afraid of Balkan discussion and who is not from ex Yugoslavia--Rjecina (talk) 20:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Bitola inscription

Why did you change the article about the Bitola inscription?Where is the view point?Explain please?

The image isn't just free but absolutely free because it was released by the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences just like 90%+ the authentic documents which are used in the historical dispute between Bulgaria and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.The books published by BAS and dedicated to the Macedonian question had never had copyright, preventing them from being distributed.Exactly the opposite.The only restriction and condition is no one to use them to gain commercial benefits.Furthermore, the books are uploaded on several sites, maintained either by BAS itself, either by some of its members and everywhere it's written that the content is free for all kinds of purposes, excluding the commercial one.Consequently using the image I don't break any rule for the COPYRIGHT.

As for the content of the article, don't get offended but please do a little research the next time when you directly revert.On the preserved part of the stone inscription is clearly written "son of Aron".Everyone fluent in Cyrillic from Siberia to the Adriatic coast is able to read it.Therefore the hypothesis that Ivan Asen II was the author of the inscription is automatically refuted by its content.His father was Ivan Asen I, to whom he is named after, whereas Aron was brother of Samuil and father of Ivan Vladislav.There is no other Aron in the history of Bulgaria and Macedonia, thus it's impossible Ivan from the inscription to be Ivan Asen II.
Regarding the inscription of Ivan Asen II, yes, such a thing exists, however it has nothing to do with Bitola.It was found in Veliko Turnovo where was his capital and the content includes self-glorifying after series of military successes and territorial expansion.
Concerning the presumable viewpoint, the fact that it's offensive to the Macedonians doesn't lower the authenticity of the text.The two so called sources include analyses not of the content but of the specifics of the text and noone puts under question the authenticity of the stone inscription. --BulgarianPatriot (talk) 10:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

First, about the image: It was falsely tagged as being public domain because of being over 100 years old, which is patent nonsense. If you say it's free for non-commercial use, first, you have brought no proof of that, second, it's not sufficient anyway. Free for non-commercial use only is not free enough for us.

Second, about the content. The article is citing academic discussions of the inscription that call its age into question (not its authenticity as medieval though). The opinion that it is younger than Ivan Vladislav exists among experts. For whatever reasons, I don't care. This was extensively documented in the talk page. You or I have no business arguing whether that is plausible or not. Your personal opinion, just like mine, is totally irrelevant here.

Third, I have not the foggiest clue why this inscription, let alone the details of its dating, would be a matter of Bulgarian-Macedonian ideological contention. I don't want to know. Our readers don't want to know either. If you are here editing this article with some such agenda in mind, I can only tell you: keep out. Go away. Hands off. This project is not for you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:34, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I decided a mail in Bulgarian would explain things better. Both points are taken it (the image and the other). I almost guessed what your answer would be :)--Laveol 10:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I've never denied the abovewritten but you replied only to a certain extent to my question and not to the gist.After the authenticity of the inscription isn't disputed and all scientists agree that it's Medieval then why we ignore the content of the text.From the clearly readable part whose content isn't disputed we have the following facts:

• The name of the King(Tsar) was Ivan
• He was Bulgarian
• He was son of Aaron
• Ivan from the inscription did something in 1014/1015 which isn't readable but we have the exact year

Let's now look at the facts: Ivan Vladislav ruled Bulgaria from 1015 to 1018 and he was from the house of Comeptopuli.From the same house there is Aaron who had a son called Ivan. Ivan Asen II from the house of Asen ruled Bulgaria from 1218 to 1241 and he was named after his father Ivan Asen I. So, the hypothesis the that the author was Ivan Asen II is automatically refuted by the text and I see no reason this to be excluded from the article.Furthermore, I didn't remove the sentence saying than some scientists think that the inscription might be by Ivan Asen II but just added that the text of the inscription proves exactly the opposite.

As for the image, I reuploaded it giving all the necessary information and sources.Check it please and say whether it's in accordance to the Misplaced Pages's rules. --BulgarianPatriot (talk) 11:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Ask the academics who have dated the text to the 13th century why they did so. There's no use us discussing that here. They were presumably not idiots, and I guess they also knew who Aaron was. As I said, your opinion is irrelevant, and so is any argument you bring forward on the basis of your own syllogism (see WP:NOR). – As for the image, I already re-deleted it. You told me it was free for non-commercial use only, that settles it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Definitely they weren't idiots but in fact their opinion isn't the generally accepted one.It's just a hypothesis and remains such until it's scientifically proven.And exactly because the academic society isn't full with idiots such strange statements, at least on the basis of the text of the inscription, provoked my suspicion.Thus I decided to check what is the real text in the sources which are supposed to defend the position that the author was Ivan Asen.After copy/paste in Google the full text of the both references, there were not many results.The common thing was that all of them were either from the different editions of Misplaced Pages, either from sites which utterly copied the article from wikipedia, either from one ultra-nationalistic forum.Nowhere else there was anything about the references, given in the article.Well, certainly I can't make you remove these references and I've never asked for such a thing but it's only up to you whether you will allow the inclusion of facts, clearly readable, whose only opposition are two references with prime source an ultra-nationalistic forum.

--BulgarianPatriot (talk) 12:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

You really, really need to make some effort wrapping your head around WP:NOR. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Eichikiyama

Can you take a look into the contribution history of Eichikiyama (talk · contribs)? The deletion campaign by the user reminds me so familiar cabal. His edit summaries do not match to his edits. He claims "there's no source" as deleting cited information, or "there is no such info" as there is such info in the sources. This kind of behaviors look very disruptive, so please examine his behaviors. Thanks.--Caspian blue (talk) 13:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Some Dr. Who Image

Per your request, I have expanded the rationale. WilyD 14:56, 18 July 2008 (UTC) Incidentally, thanks for catching the infobox. I have no clew how I fucked that up. WilyD 15:01, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, thanks for informing me anyhow. If it gets overturned it'll be a first for me, but I'm sure it'll happen someday. WilyD 17:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)