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What is this page about?
There's a lot of useful information here, and by all means it should be kept and improved. But the subject of this article is redundant with a lot of other articles. If this article is about any game where there are soft objectives, and players can wander around without advancing the plot, then that's the exact same subject as Linearity (video games). Or is this article about GTA Clones specifically? If so, we should split out the information from GTA_Clone#Similar_games and combine it with this article. I think that would be a really useful article to have, since it's clear there's a distinct genre emerging here. But this article is redundant with a lot of other articles on wikipedia, and we have to think about how to organize this information. Randomran (talk) 16:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- After GTA3, gamers and game critics alike began using the term "free roaming" and then eventually "open world" to describe the genre that was emerging, and it seemed that most wiki articles of various games just linked "free roaming" to "sandbox" (which later became "linearity"), but neither of those terms really described this new genre that I believe deserves its own article. Wangry (talk) 16:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think you're right. There's definitely a genre around GTA, Saints Row, True Crime, Crackdown ... Part of what makes writing about it difficult is that nobody uses a consistent name for this genre. Sometimes it's "open world", but I've also heard "sandbox", "crime" or even just "GTA clone". To make matters worse, there are other games like Sim City that are sometimes called "sandbox games" because they're non-linear. Hence why the whole thing got merged together in the article about linearity. I think we should definitely write an article about the GTA Clone genre, and I want to help. But what should we call it, so that it doesn't just become a dumping ground for information on any non-linear game? Randomran (talk) 18:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- I've seen "open world" used more often these days, especially as the concept has gone beyond crime/action games like GTA. Plus, "GTA clone" always seemed like a GTA fanboy term. Anything with an open world environment is suddenly a GTA clone, despite the open world environment concept having already been developed before GTA in other games such as Midtown Madness/Midnight Club, Driver, etc. See this article at GamesRadar for more background and examples. Wangry (talk) 16:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- If you think open world is the most commonly used name for this genre, then I'm okay with keeping that as the article name. The main two things I'm concerned about is (1) that we distinguish this from all games with open-level design (like Zelda or Freelancer (video game)), perhaps even including a Template:Dablink at the top, and (2) we try to include alternate names for the genre, depending on what we can find in reliable sources. I've seen them called crime games, free-roaming game (or free-roaming action-adventure) ... and yes grand theft auto clone, although I agree with you that this is kind of a fan-boyish name and we should make sure that this is not a technical term that most people agree upon. Does that make sense? Randomran (talk) 20:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, and I almost forgot: sandbox game. Randomran (talk) 20:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with your points. I've also noticed that a bot has added a link to the Japanese Misplaced Pages's "open world" article, so that might mean we're on the right track. Wangry (talk) 22:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think that's a good sign too. I tried to incorporate some of what we talked about, with the disambiguation link and the references to other names. I also moved it to "open world game", since that makes this similar to "stealth game", "Fighting game", and other video game genres. Feel free to adjust any of the wording. I'm going to try to find some research on the genre. There's probably a lot of it out there, but it's scattered across the many names that this genre is known by. Randomran (talk) 22:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- You might want to take a look at an old revision of Sandbox (video game), which Randomran deleted. It has some useful information. SharkD (talk) 08:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Most of that has been merged into nonlinear gameplay. There was no AFD. Randomran (talk) 15:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Rename of this article?
There is definitely a genre that has emerged around the GTA series. However, using terms such as sandbox game or open world game have led to confusion in the past, with people adding games that could not have had more than a passing influence on GTA or its "clones". All the same, I've had trouble finding a consistent name for the GTA Clone genre that hasn't already been applied to non-GTA-like games. I know the "GTA clone" name is somewhat fanboyish and derogatory towards other games in the genre (especially the Driver series, which came before it). But I'm not sure there's any other name that has the same clarity about what kind of game we're talking about here. Thoughts? Randomran (talk) 06:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why you seem so concerned over the "open world" term. It is clearly becoming the term of choice: , , , ,
- I'm also not really satisfied with saying that these games equal action adventure when they've been applied to other genres as well, especially racing games. Wangry (talk) 07:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- We should also consider just documenting the naming dilemma itself that has existed for a while rather than rename this article to something entirely removed from what most people refer to these types of games. Wangry (talk) 07:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. "Open world" and "sandbox" are pretty common terms used to describe these types of games. I like "open world" better than sandbox". SharkD (talk) 07:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- My concern is one of scope. I'm concerned that this article is going to become a dumping ground for virtually any game with nonlinear gameplay, since many non GTA-style games offer an open level-design concept. I guess I'm returning to the original question: what's the scope of this article? Is it an article for any game with open-ended gameplay, or are we talking about a specific game genre that is defined by more than those conventions? (e.g.: freedom to jump in vehicles, shoot a lot of people, take on different missions and side-quests...) Randomran (talk) 07:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's about "open world" games. Just that. These four articles should help: , , , SharkD (talk) 08:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Here's the problem. Those articles are just as much about nonlinear gameplay in general, and mention the linear/nonlinear distinction repeatedly. In fact:
- ... "we also have the structure of the game; non-linear and open-ended... Together these are the two pillars that hold up the modern free-roaming action-adventure genre".
- the article defines an open world game as a nonlinear game.
- "no one is going to deny that linear games such as Half-Life 2 and Call of Duty 4 are any less than superb despite their on-rails nature, but we're going to celebrate open-world gaming on PC"
- the article defines an open world game as anything that isn't a linear game. (which is an exact copy of the next article)
- ... "we also have the structure of the game; non-linear and open-ended... Together these are the two pillars that hold up the modern free-roaming action-adventure genre".
- So open world games are merely nonlinear games. And I can guarantee you that you can't find a game that's called "open world" that isn't also described as nonlinear. I thought this article was supposed to be about something more specific than that. If it isn't, then we already have an article about nonlinear gameplay in general and a merge makes perfect sense. Randomran (talk) 11:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- City-building games are also nonlinear, and yet no one would suggest merging that into nonlinear gameplay. You're right that this article is supposed to be about a more specific form of nonlinear gameplay: the open world concept that has also been termed free-roaming, etc. There is no need to merge this article to prevent something that hasn't happened yet (and probably will not happen as we have not created any lists of games, only examples within the article text). Wangry (talk) 13:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I suspect someone will eventually add something about simulation games being nonlinear and add it at nonlinear gameplay, let alone here. But you're right that it hasn't happened yet, and this would make it somewhat distinct from the nonlinear gameplay article.
Would you support a rename to just "Open world", since this is less a game type and more a game element that is used in a variety of games (racing games like crazy taxi, RPGs like Elder Scrolls, action-adventures like Metroid and Zelda, and GTA-clones...)? Randomran (talk) 14:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)- Yes, as that is what I originally named it as you might recall...haha. Wangry (talk) 14:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I suspect someone will eventually add something about simulation games being nonlinear and add it at nonlinear gameplay, let alone here. But you're right that it hasn't happened yet, and this would make it somewhat distinct from the nonlinear gameplay article.
- City-building games are also nonlinear, and yet no one would suggest merging that into nonlinear gameplay. You're right that this article is supposed to be about a more specific form of nonlinear gameplay: the open world concept that has also been termed free-roaming, etc. There is no need to merge this article to prevent something that hasn't happened yet (and probably will not happen as we have not created any lists of games, only examples within the article text). Wangry (talk) 13:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Here's the problem. Those articles are just as much about nonlinear gameplay in general, and mention the linear/nonlinear distinction repeatedly. In fact:
- It's about "open world" games. Just that. These four articles should help: , , , SharkD (talk) 08:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- My concern is one of scope. I'm concerned that this article is going to become a dumping ground for virtually any game with nonlinear gameplay, since many non GTA-style games offer an open level-design concept. I guess I'm returning to the original question: what's the scope of this article? Is it an article for any game with open-ended gameplay, or are we talking about a specific game genre that is defined by more than those conventions? (e.g.: freedom to jump in vehicles, shoot a lot of people, take on different missions and side-quests...) Randomran (talk) 07:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Is game action adventure?
Template:RFCmedia I'm tired of this bickering over which articles call these games "action adventure". The articles either call individual games action adventure, or use the terms together to describe a new type of game. SharkD (talk) 07:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I realize the problem might be that we're talking about two different things. GTA-style games are frequently called action adventure games, and are commonly called "free roaming action-adventures". But it's possible that this article is a victim of information creep for any game with open world level-design, which may be flight simulators, RPGs, or what have you. Randomran (talk) 07:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)