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Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. Click here to purge this page (For help, see Misplaced Pages:Purge) Shortcut WP:WQA Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
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Active alerts

User:HarryAlffa

HarryAlffa has been acting uncivilly in Talk:Solar System for some time, but his behaviour has been tolerated by other users because he has to date skirted the boundary of outright personal attacks. But his most recent post has crossed the line, and I think he needs to be disciplined. Serendious 21:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that he does not need to keep asking whether other editors on the page are "drunk," but it's not enough for him to be "disciplined." It seems to be mostly tongue-in-cheek to me. IronDuke 22:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The "drunk" comment posted by User:HarryAlffa is just one indication of what the regular editors at Solar System have been subjected to over the past few weeks. HarryAlffa has not managed to gain any support for his proposed changes there, and has since resorted to a series of disruptive actions. The most recent of these include the "drunk" comment, accusations of dishonesty, and most recently an utterly unreasonable sockpuppet claim and "checkuser' request directed at Ashill, Serendipodous, and myself. To be perfectly honest, if not for my past involvement with the article in question, I would have blocked HarryAlffa for disruptive behaviour quite some time ago. He is certainly causing a great deal of problems for other editors. --Ckatz_spy 23:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A few days ago, I compiled some of the user's actions, not sure whether it's really enough to ask for outside opinions about. Individually, HarryAlffa's actions are perhaps just questionable (although the latest "drunk" comment is over-the-top), but taken together, all these things are, I think, a problematic pattern that makes Harry very difficult to work with (in addition to his disregard for consensus).

He has been involved in an edit conflict at Solar System since 2008 July 30 (first edit diff). His edits are clearly based in good faith, primarily focusing on trying to make the wording of the lead clearer for novice readers. However, a number of other editors (including myself, User:Serendipodous, and User:Ckatz) have voiced opposition to many of his edits. He has explained his reasoning at the Talk:Solar System, but is not terribly respectful of other editors' differing opinions. For example, he has asserted that: "My original solution to a problem only I spotted is easier to maintain as it enumerates the dwarfs once, and I think wiki convention allows my version precedence when it comes to matters of taste." (diff)

Further borderline insults and otherwise uncivil behavior: He created Category:May contain nuts, and added the Solar System article to the category. He may have been making a legitimate criticism (see the corresponding essay, User:HarryAlffa/May contain nuts), but the title seemed to me like it may be calling the page's editors "nuts". Lately, he has accused editors of lying in edit summaries. He has also taken to calling User:Serendipodous "sod" and said that I "show a lack of cognitive ability".

I would very much welcome suggestions as to how to move forward with a mutually respectful, constructive collaboration. —Alex (ASHill | talk | contribs) 05:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The "drunk" comment didn't bother me. In fact I didn't even notice it. What bothered me was this comment:

if you really are a scientist, it has to be concluded that you are not a very good one.

C'mon, you're a computer technician at an observatory aren't you! Confess all!

Serendious 07:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to plead ignorance of wikipedia community activities, having not taken part in any.

I think it was Ashill who mentioned sockpuppets at one point, and having scanned the article I thought the three users fitted. Please do read "the utterly unreasonable sockpuppet claim and 'checkuser' request directed at Ashill, Serendipodous," and Ckatz. You will find my language there to be soft-peddling. Of course the three users would think that the accusation itself was unreasonable, but I did give good reasons for my suspicions.

Having learned a bit more about the community and how to examine user activities I now realise that it would be a pretty amazing amount of planning and "acting" required for these three to be sockpuppets. Live & learn, I say. -HarryAlffa (talk) 20:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

HarryAlffa's Incivility

Serendipodous said I had "been acting uncivilly in Talk:Solar System for some time ... skirted the boundary of outright personal attacks". I will show this cannot be unsubstantiated.

All of these neutral comments were made by me in the process of discussion. You won't want to read them all, but scan them for "emotional" content.

• 22:44, 30 July 2008: Ok. Good point. I've changed it above using the language from the first paragraph.
• 21:42, 31 July 2008: Can we combine both a category list & a named object list? I would propose to replace the current list with this; ... I offered this combined list in the spirit of compromise and cooperation. I thank you for your previous objections because I think this new list is better than my original or the current list.
• 15:13, 1 August 2008: Alex, you said lists where rarely inappropriate, then your suggested replacement text contained 2 lists! You've proven that you cannot write about the Solar System without a list of planets!
• 16:57, 1 August 2008: Apologies for the "inappropriate" typo.
• 17:43, 3 August 2008: You cannot say that my version was verbose! Are you confusing the amount of screen-space it occupied with verbosity? It contained the same or a lesser amount of text! Almost all of the current second paragraph was subsumed into the new list and in a great deal less text.
• 18:46, 3 August 2008: perturbed objects, like comets, can't be said to populate the other regions they are passing through; asteroids only populate the Asteroid belt.
• 22:32, 30 July 2008: The Oort Cloud is still theoretical, but the theory includes objects.
• 13:59, 31 July 2008: I don't believe your assertion that "a few billion solar particles" are objects, is a useful one in the context of describing the Solar System.
• 19:59, 31 July 2008: So we agree that the Heliopause is a region? Yes, these object cross the Heliopause. I agree. The Heliopause does not contain them. Comets cross the inner region of the Solar System, but you would not say that it contains comets. You said the the Heliopause is unlike the Asteroid or Kuiper belts. Yes. I agree. The Asteroid and Kuiper belts contain objects. However, I would amend my proposal to ...
• 21:06, 31 July 2008: If people do not know the difference between apples and machine guns then a line explaining that difference would be useful. I expect a number of people will not have heard of the Heliopause ... so pointing out that the Heliopause is named for reasons other than for a population of objects seems pertinent and contrasting. Such contrast creates interest. So that explains why it is necessary. Cumbersome. No, it contains the data, reasons and interesting contrast.
• 18:27, 3 August 2008: "The readers assumption", thing I could have put better. The article leads the reader to believe that the Heliopause is another collection of objects. Surely you can see this is obvious {explanation} ... Can't you see that the very points you make arguing against including these points logically support putting them in?
• 21:12, 3 August 2008: It misleads the novice into thinking that the Heliosphere ...
• 13:13, 4 August 2008: I had resolved all of these problems by my previous (see my talk page) bold edit, which is what wikipedia encourages, but my changes were reverted
• 15:48, 5 August 2008: Again, my version of the lead solves all the problems I've raised ... It seems to me that no one else is empathising with the novice astronomer. Who else is likely to be seeking knowledge from the lead of this article?
• 10:13, 6 August 2008: the two bullet lists make it seem as if ALL the dwarf planets orbit beyond Neptune, (how many times have I said that?!)

From the 10th of August my patience starts to wear thin.

I think I've shown that I haven't been uncivil, so far!

The next comment shows some annoyance, but it gives a reason.

• 20:35, 10 August 2008: I did NOT say that Misplaced Pages was a dictionary, this is a fundamentally dishonest tactic, implying in your reply that I asserted something by nay-saying something I did not actually say, or imply. | ... | I was suggesting exactly what you said ... If something about ALL the planets doesn't fit in the Solar System, where else do ALL the planets fit?

My next comments show I don't suffer fools gladly. It's my only character flaw. :). But you couldn't describe it as uncivil.

• 18:04, 10 August 2008: it sounds like, from your use of the word Saga, that you are levelling some criticism at me for raising any questions? |...| solar wind fluctuates, therefore "steady flow" is simply incorrect ... get a dictionary, if your not sure about the application of a word, don't try to use the fact of your ignorance as an argument. Incessant can be applied this way. You have said both that "the solar wind is NOT constant in intensity/velocity", AND that it is "steady! Do you actually read what you write? ... I was trying to capture the dynamism (look it up) and the high speed of the solar wind, "steady flow" might describe pus seeping from a wound, but it is far to tame ... Sod, you're territorial. {his own suggestion} Your "first" sentence is actually a rewrite of my "original" sentence ... was met with resistance from you, but no logic.
• 19:40, 10 August 2008: Your frustration showed in your use of the word Saga ... I don't mind editors opinions coming closer to what I've been trying to tell them, but rewriting something just because of who the author is is irksome ...
• 20:19, 10 August 2008: Can you see that the reasons you have given for restoring the description of ... must also result in restoring the "ice" section. Even Sod edited this section to improve it. There are numerous references to "ice", such a common word MUST be explicitly explained. There is just no escaping this logic no matter what your emotional response is.
• 22:15, 13 August 2008: That's a good sentence, but the article itself says ... I would still like something a bit more exciting than "flow of charged particles" ... I would suggest the rewrite: ...

You still couldn't describe anything I've said as uncivil, nor have I come close to a personal attack. Later I will show that it was Sorendipodus who was uncivil.

Then at 20:55, 14 August 2008, came my expression of amazement at the stupidity of Ashill's comments on my suggested re-write. From his claim to be an ISM Scientist and my analysis of this and many of his other comments I concluded that his analytical skills would make him a poor scientist of any sort, I then took a wild guess that he was a computer technician - nothing wrong with that, I was one for many years. -HarryAlffa (talk) 20:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorendipodus's Incivility

I wouldn't actually describe Sorendipodus's comments as uncivil, but you can see the unprovoked, irrational emotion they show.

• 10:08, 31 July 2008: And it does contain objects. Quite a few billion solar particles, in fact.
• 14:52, 31 July 2008: And what? Are you going to argue that an interaction would contain objects? By definition it wouldn't. There's no point in bringing it up, any more then there is in saying, "The atmosphere contains no continents."
• 19:16, 31 July 2008: You're trying to compare apples and oranges. Or maybe apples and machine guns.
• 20:03, 31 July 2008: Why? It's cumbersome and unnecessary. The article already explains what the heliopause is. Why add a line essentially saying that an apple is not a machine gun?

You will notice that all of the above were on 31 July, compare them to my neutral comments on the same day.

He then made two neutral comments on other editors, then his next comment to me issues a challenge, and the claims to a "first version" are not true.

• 13:47, 9 August 2008: Well I wrote the first version, so I think it reads better. And I reverted it back. Call me territorial.

He made some silly edits to my prose replacement for a bullet list, then later "remembers" that edit was his original! Add this to the unintelligent aspect of his other comments, then in much the same way as I dismiss President George W Gump as an idiot, from that point forward I considered Sorendipodus incapable of useful cogitation. -HarryAlffa (talk) 22:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Borderline insult by creating User:HarryAlffa/May_contain_nuts

On this Wikiquette alert Ashill said of this, "the title seemed to me like it may be calling the page's editors 'nuts' " - I hadn't thought of that before, but neither had Ashill, otherwise he would have said something of the like before. The page I created was all about how boring the ingredients list for a sandwich was, apart from the famous phrase. It in no way could be thought to be saying that editors were nuts, being nuts would at least be interesting, not boring. Is Ashill being a little dishonest here, or is he just showing a lack of cognitive ability? -HarryAlffa (talk) 22:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

accusations of dishonesty in edit summaries

My comments in chronological order;

• Ckatz mislead about consensus opposition.
• Ckatz lied about consensus opposition. Both Serendipodous and ASHill made edits to Ice paragraph, therefore implicit aproval for keeping.

Myself and Serendipodous were actively editing this paragraph, as was Ashil, then he removed it.

So two active editors, then Ashill and Ckatz remove it. Can that be said to be concensus for removal? -HarryAlffa (talk) 22:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Er, Harry, I hope you don't mind me butting in, but in the section above titled "Sorendipodus's Incivility", the diffs you provided really do not look incivil; on the contrary, you refer to his editing as "silly" and his comments as "unintelligent". You seem to have shot yourself in the foot rather, and you might like to strike that section. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 02:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Fragments of Jade

I have finally reached the limit of my politeness with the above-noted editor. One day, while monitoring "recent changes" I saw a rather heated response in the Talk Page of Silent Hill. I stopped by to help to resolve the issue. Very early on, I was attacked by this user, and referred on their discussion page as a "pervert". I have since been accused of being a sockpuppet (although not officially, even though I have asked them to), been told that I'm a liar and a freak. Sadly, they have referred to others in involved in the same mediation efforts as "stalkers" and "psychos". I have tried to assist the editor, and politely help them to actually understand policy and even the concept of AGF. One day, I even gave them an official "welcome" using the cookie-based template to show that I was honestly friendly.

Not long ago, the editor again referred to me as a sockpuppet, and a liarm and I placed a comment on their dicussion page that VERY firmly (as I should have before) advised them of how disturbing their comments were.

They then blanked there page, and called me a "pervert" in the edit SUMMARY.

That was indeed the last straw. I am now in permanent record a pervert - that's libel, and is not acceptable conduct on ANY internet site, let alone on Misplaced Pages.

This may have to be escalated, as they already have shown a propensity to not respect admins, and I see little chance that they will change.

I am done trying to defend this editor and their right to edit when I am abused and attacked, and called a "pervert". This editor needs to be stopped.

Sorry to disturb, but I will truly appreciate whoever's assistance. BMW(drive) 23:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The user has been blocked one week for other offenses. Dayewalker (talk) 06:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

• I really hope that someone "adopts" this editor when they return. Unfortunately, their ban does not address the issues above, but someone will need to let this user know that because other people either disagree, OR they try to get you to follow Misplaced Pages policies, that does NOT permit you to attack, call names (such as pervert), or otherwise try and discredit others. I tried to help them, but I'm not going to hang around for additional abuse. BMW(drive) 09:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Jjtromans

Constantly adding "sockpuppets" to my page, despite having no evidence to say they are mine. have requested that s/he stop as the "sockpuppets" are not mine (one is my IP address, another is my old work IP, so should be removed as my old work may be used by another editor, and another is from my old PC in my old home - the only one that is mine is my current IP address) and he simply stated that I was a "liar". He has repeatedly reverted my (correct edits). TBH, I think a warning should suffice in the first instance, but if he continues a ban may be neccesary. Thanks. Step13thirteen (talk) 16:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the entries he pleaced on the IP-pages. Make sure that you do not "forget to login" in order to "accidentally" circumvent Misplaced Pages rules. An Admin will want to keep an eye on 3RR's for both users.

User:Ckatz

Ckatz is a "consensus monkey" - he contributes virtually nothing to the talk page, then he re-writes the article saying it's the consensus - leave the re-writes to those actually actively discussing things, I say. -HarryAlffa (talk) 22:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any diffs or particular articles? Ckatz is a widely active editor, so it would be difficult for one to guess what it is you are referencing in your note. Lazulilasher (talk) 23:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Lazulilasher, thanks for looking into this. Frankly, I'd appreciate an uninvolved perspective as this editor has become quite disruptive. Having not achieved what he wanted at the Solar System article, he has now resorted to a series of personal criticisms/attacks directed at Ashill, Serendipodous, and myself, including this filing, a checkuser request, and an accusation of sock puppetry. (Apparently, Ashill, Serendipodous and myself are one and the same editor.) Any help you can provide would be appreciated. Thanks. --Ckatz_spy 09:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I read the talk page Solar System discussion. I noticed that there is already an open thread here regarding HarryAlffa and this discussion above. In the interest of keeping the discussion in one place, and in the absence of any diffs against Ckatz, I would move that this conversation be concentrated above in the existing Wikiquette Alert. Regards, Lazulilasher (talk) 18:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I can only point to the Solar System on the 9th & 11th of August |diff1 |diff2. If you go to the talk page at this point, you will find only one contribution from Ckatz. Myself and one other editor were actively editing the "Ice" paragraph, while one other wanted rid of it, then Ckatz removed it twice - erroneously claiming consensus.

I found another example of someone complaining about exactly this behaviour on Ckatz's talk page, but don't have time at the minute to search again for it.

As I said yesterday in the complaint about me on this page;

Please do read, as Ckatz said, "the utterly unreasonable sockpuppet claim and 'checkuser' request directed at Ashill, Serendipodous," and Ckatz. You will find my language there to be soft-peddling. Of course the three users would think that the accusation itself was unreasonable, but I did give good reasons for my suspicions.

Having learned a bit more about the community and how to examine user activities I now realise that it would be a pretty amazing amount of planning and "acting" required for these three to be sockpuppets. Live & learn, I say.

Ckatz would have read this before he put his post above, so why did Ckatz make out that I was still claiming sock-puppetry? Basic dishonesty? I know Ckatz and Ashill will have read this, because one or both of them is "spying" on my contributions, as they both turned up to on various pages on the May contain nuts I didn't tell them about.

Ashill, Serendipodous and Ckatz seem to view making points they have no answer to as disruptive behaviour. I did critique Ashill's cognitive abilities (see the complaint about me on this page), can anyone offer any counter arguments? But this one deconstruction of another's comments cannot be described as a series. I would appreciate any intelligent editor casting an analytical eye over Ckatz who is revealing himself to be as honest as a politician or a tabloid journalist. -HarryAlffa (talk) 18:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

First, please avoid comments like "as honest as a politician or a tabloid journalist." Second, after another reading of the article's talk page, I cannot find an instance of Ckatz breaching Wikiquette or being uncivil. The talk page discussion seems lively and reasonably professional. I commend that, and hope this conduct continues. As far as a content/stylistic dispute is concerned, this is most likely not the correct venue (as my astronomy knowledge is limited). I recommend either Third Opinion or Requests for Comment if the talk page is not working. Lazulilasher (talk) 21:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I thank you for your fair summary of the talk page. I am still somewhat ignorant of wiki-community rules, so by placing my complaint here you have concluded that I thought Ckatz was bein uncivil, my fault for that! I had thought that being a concensus monkey would be frowned upon? Ckatz hasn't contributed to the talk page in this, so he hasn't expressed himself uncivilly. Above, on this page he has been spinning things a little. I think that is obvious?

Surely it would be a terrible thing if even sarcasm, "as honest as a politician or a tabloid journalist" was pollitically incorrect? Thank you for your time spent on this. -HarryAlffa (talk) 14:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

No worries, Harry. Generally, this forum is for Wikiquette concerns, rather than content concerns. Regarding your remark, the difficulty is that we are only communicating via keyboards and monitors, therefore sarcasm can, and often is, misinterpreted. That you did not mean it as such is good, and I am glad that you took the time to mention it here. Again, most kind regards. Lazulilasher (talk) 18:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Thivierr

This user seems intent on making unevidenced accusations that I am a sockpuppet and a troll ] . I've directed him to WP:RFCU but to no avail. His accusations run counter to the guideline WP:BITE and his comments are in the lowest levels of the Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution hierarchy of disagreement. He has made massive changes to my userspace, which while allowed under WP:userspace, is generally considered impolite. --ENAIC (talk) 07:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

ENAIC, you have very few edits and your user page appears to be a massive (800+) link farm. Is there a reason for that? Dayewalker (talk) 07:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The (Ad hominem) 'link farm' on my user page is a list of references from various articles. The discussion on WP:BOT NB, was about converting bare reference external links. I compiled a random list of refs for analysis. --ENAIC (talk) 07:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you provide diffs? Thanks. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Note: User:ENAIC is indef blocked as sock puppet. --Rob (talk) 14:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Hubschrauber729

This user has been engaging in mass reversion of maintainence tags including:

I believe that unsourced POV is unencylopedic and unhelpful, and his edits are disruptive and detremential to the project Fasach Nua (talk) 08:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

This seems to be a content dispute - you can pursue Article RFC or mediation at WP:DR, but this is not the venue. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Jagdfeld

Various users on the Anglophilia article have been on the receiving end of some rather uncivil behaviour from the above-mentioned user.

• Belittling contributors because of their language skills or word choice.

"My worry is that you are presuming to edit when you cannot even spell Adolf. Perhaps stick to Romanian?"

"(PS your command of the English language might be improved.)"

• Referring to other editors' good-faith changes as vandalism.

"Problems with Francis Tyers: repeated vandalism"

"why have you been indulging in ... indiscriminate vandalism?"

"It is now perfectly clear, given his history of vandalism of this article, that Francis Tyers should be blocked."

"Thank you, Francis/Jimmy. Reporting yourself for vandalism and sock puppetry would be helpful."

• Rudeness

"When you are dead, or get older, you might feel embarrassed at being a time-waster."

"Have a shave. Get a haircut. Have a wash."

"I am telling you to grow up"

These provide some examples of the kind of aggressive discussion that we think breaches Misplaced Pages's WP:CIVIL policies. - Francis Tyers · 13:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It is worth noting that the user has been warned by an admin already about civility, see here. - Francis Tyers · 14:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Domer48

I would like someone to take a look at the incivility I am having to endure from this user. I commenced posting at 16:19 on 29th July. By 17:59 this report had been submitted accusing me of abusive sockpuppetry, which was never the case. You can also see the use of propaganda POV editing, conflict of interest, disruptive editing, copyright violations, edit warring, and "a mockery of Misplaced Pages". The abuse continued under the guise of the complaint calling me "a self confessed UDR man" which I presume was intended to indicate I was not a fit person to edit the article at Ulster Defence Regiment, accusing me of having several brand new accounts, and deceiving other editors. Because of the perceived harrassment I reported the matter on this page here and as you can see admonishments were handed out by Admins. As you can see I attempted to redress the issue by inviting the user to participate here and here. My attempts at friendliness were rebuffed by incivil comments as the user removed my entries from his talk page, on several of them accusing me of policy violations. On my own talk page I was again accused of violating policy here. I have resolved myself not to become involved with this user again where possible because he seems to have the ability to make me lose my cool. I do note however he has a long track record of incivility to a number of users and (I believe) had a ban for the very same thing quite recently. I do not feel this type of behaviour has any place in Misplaced Pages and respectfully ask for an interested admin to look into it.The Thunderer (talk) 16:58, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Forum shopping again? Please be civil, stay of my talk page and the next time you call me a "rabid Irish bigot" I will request you get more than a slap on the wrist. And Alison never said you were not a sock, just that you were not an abusive sock-puppetry. I disagree, go figure? --Domer48_'fenian' 17:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I would respectfully ask admins to note the comments by User:Domer48, the disdain he shows for the concern he has caused. Also the way he is trying to twist the comment made at "rabid Irish bigot" which, while perhaps a little strong of me, it's direction at any one individual is emphatically denied here, something which Mr Domer failed to notice or point out. I would also request that the tone of my comments be examined in the fond hope that they are found to be non-inflammatory as my intention all along has been to remain civil and try to negotiate a settlement with the editors who seem to have taken such a distaste for the edits I produce at Ulster Defence Regiment.The Thunderer (talk) 17:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Berlin

Hello, I've been working on Berlin for a couple of days now. It had a lot of dead links and a lot of the references weren't formatted consistently. I repaired the links, formatted and added a couple of references and changed some of the pictures to better versions of the same subjects. About 60 edits in all so quite a lot of work. Then I got this message on my talk page and this editor reverted all 60 edits in one go including back to all the broken links. I reverted the edit . Please can someone help, I will try and reason with the person as well regarding sources though I feel a 60-edit revert needs to be reported somewhere. thanks very much Tom (talk) 20:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Compounding references as you did, Tom, is a very good practice. Rather than reducing the credibility of an article it enhances compactness on what we see and even more on what we store as source code. Moreover, it conveys easily the significance of a single source for the referencing thereby rather increasing the article's credibility, I find. I guess it is for these reasons that we are encouraged to work like this.

It's probably OK to disagree with this guide line, since it does not sound very strict. However, such arguable disagreement certainly does not justify the revert of so many necessary, obviously improving edits. I wish both of you good luck resolving this. Tomeasy _{T C} 08:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Malleus Fatuorum

Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs) has made comments on User_talk:Tony1#Further_observations, (now reverted by another user) and User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum#Date_linking that I consider rude, insulting and to be personal attacks, simply because I questioned another user for going through pages and systematically removing links from dates.

User:Malleus Fatuorum has made no effort to state his case for removing date links (I'm always open to listening to people's point of view or suggestions of a new policy!) and has instead simply posted insults on the talk pages. Please could someone have a look at this? Thanks, JRawle (Talk) 09:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Take Malleus' insults to an admin, if you ask me. I think he needs some time off Misplaced Pages to cool down and come back once he realizes that people here should be treated with respect. Tomeasy _{T C} 10:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

This is an unfortunate situation involving an overreaction by Malleus to what was, IMO, a rather odd post by JRawle on my talk page, much of it apparently a standard paste-in (for newbies?) that was inappropriate under the circumstances; I do believe that JRawle was heavy-handed in the "Warning" title and information sign, which did not assume good faith on my part. It clearly perplexed Malleus as much as it did me, but that's no excuse for Malleus's comments, in which he has played loose with language there and at MOSNUM (linked to). I believe he owes JRawle an apology. Malleus, will that be forthcoming? It's not hard. Your posts were a bit over the top, weren't they? Tony (talk) 10:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Even if he wanted to apologise, it may be difficult to get one now, as he has been blocked for 24 hours by an admin JRawle contacted. I think the blocking was premature and escalates the matter, given that an apology could have been agreed upon until that point.  DDStretch  (talk) 10:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Malleus was given ample opportunity to resolve the matter, as per my conversation with him on his talk page. He instead refused to do so, and chose to continue with the uncivil behaviour. --Ckatz_spy 10:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying that what you did was wrong, as your actions comply with the blocking policy. However, I just think there might have been some room for other editors, probably some who knew Malleus, to persuade him to make a retraction and apology if imposing the block had been delayed for a little extra time. Oh well, it's done now.  DDStretch  (talk) 11:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I have apologised to Tony1 for the inappropriate template I pasted, which wasn't the right way to discuss edits he was making.

I would also like to point out that I did not contact any administrators to ask for Malleus Fatuorum to be blocked. If an admin saw this discussion and edits by Malleus Fatuorum and decided to block him, so be it, but that was not my original intention. Just thought I'd make that clear. JRawle (Talk) 10:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah. my mistake. Sorry.  DDStretch  (talk) 10:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Not to worry. I did contact Ckatz, but that was to thank him/her for reverting one rude comment from a talk page. I was unaware that Ckatz was an administrator, and that was before anyone had suggested contacting an administrator or blocking. JRawle (Talk) 10:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Several users were expressing concerns, but what was alarming was not so much that the incivility continued, but that it became more pointy with direct personal attacks (eg; "one of your idiot friends"). I think the block was appropriate and seems to have resolved the matter for now. If there is further incivility during or after the block, then it's probably something for the next step in dispute resolution, or for admins to deal with at the admin noticeboard. Of course, it's ideal if it stops. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:45, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

User:dfgarcia by User:Goodone121

I was the 3rd party in a previous alert, and he repeatedly attacked me ,as you can see here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goodone121 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I honestly forgot to sign. Bettering the Wiki (talk) 19:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield

• Template talk:Sexual orientation (edit | template | history | links | watch | logs)
• Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk · contribs)
• Alynna Kasmira (talk · contribs)
• Benjiboi (talk · contribs)
• Luna Santin (talk · contribs)

A recent dispute on Template talk:Sexual orientation has been getting a bit nasty, recently. In particular, when responding to this comment from Alynna Kasmira, another user named Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield said "you are just like a child with a semi-automatic pistol" and made a further allusion to (I think) what they called Alynna's "poor education." Benjiboi said that he found Nigel's comment offensive, to which Nigel replied that "offense is part of learning" and that he has an absolute right to offend. See Benjiboi's next reply and Nigel's following retort. When I reminded Nigel of his obligation to maintain civil dialogue, I was told to "suck the lemon" (I'm not sure if I should be offended or not?).

I would love to see a return to calm conversation, but doubt I can achieve that acting alone, at this point. A little help? – Luna Santin (talk) 20:45, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll add that Nigel does not actually seem to want to edit wikipedia (by his own admission) but only enters into disputes on talk pages. this would not normally be a problem, mind you - more inout is always better - except for his tendency to be offensive rather than productive. --Ludwigs2 20:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Errr... Is this him?Is this about him? I only add these items because I started searching for the credentials of a Dr ... even I can call myself a Doctor on the Internet. However, when one asserts a level of knowledge on a subject, and decides they are "right" because they are a Doctor, one must determine veracity. There cannot be a large number of people with this EXACT name who are doctors. BMW(drive) 22:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I fixed the links you gave, but I'm not sure this kind of 'identity outing' is within policy. I really don't know, but it makes me uneasy, so I thought I'd raise the issue. --Ludwigs2 23:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The user has created a username that appears to be a complete, proper name including title. The name is easily Google-able. The user is either named that (and thus outed themself), made up a name (in which case, it might be a bad choice), is a "fan" of the person (which might be in bad taste), or used that name just to stir up controversy (which would be against policy). Any single user in Misplaced Pages, or even the general public can do the exact same search and find the exact same results. As such, no policy has been violated by me. I merely wanted to point out that the editor's focus on specific topics may indeed be related to a person who happens to go by the exact same name as the username chosen. BMW(drive) 23:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

that makes sense to me. apologies for the unnecessary tangent. --Ludwigs2 23:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

No problem. Concerns over policy vio = good editor :) BMW(drive) 00:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is me on YT, albeit interpreted by haters :) That is my full name, they are my academic credentials and have never been attributed to, in the topics under discussion. What area they are in need not concern anyone here, at this time. Now, what is the problem, other than hypersensitivity and the inability of some to see inverted commas? Yours, Nigel Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk) 01:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and for the record, I did fancy adding a reference to an article, today :) Yours, Nigel Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk) 01:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I have a horrible feeling that the problem, as far as User:Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield is concerned, is everybody else. This isn't the first academic I've seen who has no time for unfamiliar community practices - and in this case Misplaced Pages:Civility and Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks spring to mind. Unfortunately, those are the behavioural norms here and it is accepted practice to ban or block editors who commit repeated or serious breaches of them. Therefore I urge User:Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield to review both pages and to make an effort to play nicely with the other kids. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 02:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

hey! no academic bashing! Some of us are well-adjusted, you know... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ludwigs2 (talk • contribs)

SS: Then you have not read my comments and, obviously, know little about me (how could you?). 'Kids' is appropriate, in many cases, in an intellectual sense ... you are correct. Thank you for playing. Yours, Nigel, Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk) 11:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Nigel, it's exactly comments like you just made that will eventually result in you being blocked on Misplaced Pages. This is a collective - a commune if you will - which you signed on to, and of which you agreed to the policies and goals by applying for a user account. In Misplaced Pages, all are equal, and all have equal say. One of the policies you agree to is to be civil to other editors. I left the "Welcome" template on your user page so that you would take a few moments to avail yourself of your roles, rights, and responsibilities. They are not optional. The reason this discussion appears here in Wikiquette alerts is because you took the first step: incivility towards other editors. The attempt now is to help you fix this before the next step, which would require administrative warnings and blocks. If you truly feel you have valid input into Misplaced Pages, stick around and use the rules you agreed to. Unlike society, where you are required to inherit the laws of where you live or visit, on Misplaced Pages you have made a conscious decision to accept a series of rules by your own personal choice. If you did not like the rules and conditions of use, then you had the opportunity to not join. BMW(drive) 11:57, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

In Misplaced Pages, all are equal, and all have equal say Apparently not, and the odd thing is, my funny little fellow, I am being civil. Perhaps not to your USA/Canadian sensibilities, but that is not my concern. Vandalise my talkpage, if you want, block me, if you will, ban me, if you must ... that will merely confirm my propositions. I think you overestimate the importance of this wiki. Do you think there is anything you can say to me, within this sphere, that is news? Again, I recommend you read my posts, with greater care, before you make any further, rash accusations. Yours, Nigel Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk) 23:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Nigel, how would you feel if a new student joined one of your classes, and proceeded to disrupt the discussion by treating everyone with an air of insufferable superiority, because they were (let's say) an outstanding football player? How would you go about explaining that achievements in one field, no matter how impressive, are utterly irrelevant to how one should conduct oneself in other fields? SHEFFIELDSTEEL 00:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Your false analogy is noted. It would depend on whether he knew more about the topic I was teaching and/or he was more skilled in conveying it and/or he had an evidenced, successful history of intellectual pursuit. If he qualified, on these points, heck, I would welcome him, with open arms, and maybe let him run the show ;) No more scenarios to aggravate the situation, please. Yours. Nigel Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk) 00:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

You behave as if you are ignorant of how to behave on Misplaced Pages, yet you dismiss any concerns that your behaviour is improper, and you continue to needle and insult editors who are trying to help, based apparently on your opinion of your achievements outside of Misplaced Pages. In short, you behave like the student who thinks he knows more than the teacher. What makes you think the analogy is false? SHEFFIELDSTEEL 00:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's a tip ... stop 'helping' ... perhaps it will heal itself. I am sorry that the subtleties of my modification were not clear (although, from your response, I believe they were - crystal). You need not concern yourself with it. Yours, Nigel.Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk) 00:59, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I would like to think that assistance will always be given to editors in good standing who post here asking for it. Having said that, I shall now watch and wait. Regards, SHEFFIELDSTEEL 01:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

"I should like to think ..." ........ Just joshing you :) :) :) ... "White riot, I wanna riot, white riot ..." Yours Nigel Dr Nigel Leigh Oldfield (talk) 01:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

• As one of those slighted by Nigel's unique takes on expressing themselves by disparaging others I commend the effort to help introduce them to the civility and npa guidelines in place. Sadly, I sense that this user has little interest in following community protocols and they seem to want to assert their own platform as the truth for the rest of us to catch up to. This is welcome but only when done civilly which has been absent as of yet. We work with one another not as the most degreed or learned rules. Perhaps your opinions are correct but condescending and disparaging comments are counter-intuitive to constructive progress on all fronts. Banjeboi 10:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Terrorism Advocation of the July 2005 Bombings on Summer 2012 Olympics Page by Admin

• 2012 Summer Olympics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

PLEASE READ THE DISCUSSION PAGE TO GO WITH THIS. There is some very suspicious (and racist) behavior by one (perhaps socketpuppetry) or two editors advocating terrorism of the July 2005 Bombings on this page. The admin has blocked content change. Please help. I am new to wiki and dont know how to fight them Do not let the terrorists win--MissOrgum1996 (talk) 10:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Enough is enough. For those of you new to this saga, this user has:

• Already had a 12hr block for 3RR
• Repeatedly made misleading edit summaries, covering deletion and alteration of both her own comments and those of other editors
• Has a notice up at WP:ANI here detailing her actions

Multiple editors have attempted to reason with her. I have tried enlisting a Polish-speaking (the user identifies as Polish) editor to speak with her in her native tongue, whence comes the accusation of racism. Essentially, the user believes that factual reporting of a terrorist incident (July 7 bombings in London) in an article about the 2012 Olympics (referencing that news coverage of the bid win was overshadowed by the bombings) is 'terrorist propaganda'. Prince of Canada 10:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

This has also been inappropriately raised at WP:COIN . Frankly this smells of trolling. For someone completely new to Misplaced Pages, this editor knows about sockpuppets and WP:COIN and WP:WQA? I don't think so. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 10:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Terrorist Propaganda breaks wiki's pillar (neutral POV) and soapbox rules *2012 Summer Olympics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• 2012 Summer Olympics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

PLEASE READ THE DISCUSSION PAGE TO GO WITH THIS

Besides this, supporting terrorist propaganda is against wikipedia's (soapbox rule) as the article would be giving biased press coverage towards the terrorists (and not a neutral one as stated in the 5 wiki pillars). (Surely a neutral article which would just provide information regarding the summer olympic games 2012).

• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution