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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Viriditas (talk | contribs) at 20:57, 21 August 2008 (→User name: ce). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

As requested, my argument for ACORN sentence, organized

This is a form message I'm cross posting on various user talk pages: As requested, I wrote up my argument in one spot, consolidating what I'd said before and adding just a bit. Please take a look at it at User:Noroton/The case for including ACORN and comment at Talk:Barack Obama#Case for ACORN proposed language, restated. Thanks, Noroton (talk) 03:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

re Salon

I checked out your user edits but I couldn't find what you were referencing. It probably was staring me right in the face ;) Can you point me to what it is? Trilemma (talk) 21:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Barack_Obama_presidential_primary_campaign%2C_2008&diff=prev&oldid=225719164

i think that the whole salon thing is over the top vand every reference needs to be removed. My edit should highlight the inappropriateness of the source. I know WP point, but when I tried to touch it the folks climbed out of the wood work to revert.--Die4Dixie (talk) 01:20, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to Talk:Barack Obama

Let's keep it simple and civil. You know they will try to bait us and provoke us into something and then get us blocked for it. You have described this as the disagree/ provoke/ report cycle. Don't let them do it. When they start baiting you, report them. WorkerBee74 (talk) 16:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

July 2008

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. However, talk pages are meant to be a record of a discussion; deleting or editing legitimate comments, as you did at WP:ANI, is considered bad practice, even if you meant well. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Cailil 19:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Your welcome is passive- agressive. I have been here long enough that a welcome can only serve one purpose. I see that you are involved now, and that you , by claiming the mention of my name to be legitimate in that context, you condone the attack. I will leave this to see if there is any more behavior on your part that is questionable. Please leave me and my talk page alone after this.Die4Dixie (talk) 19:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Per policy, editing other user's comments has few exceptions -- none of which is applicable in this case. Please cease this behavior, and assume good faith. seicer | talk | contribs 19:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

My goodness. a veritable band wagon.-Die4Dixie (talk) 19:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

"Removing personal attacks and incivility. This is controversial, and many editors do not feel it is acceptable; please read WP:ATTACK#Removal of text and WP:CIVIL#Removal of uncivil comments before removing anything." this falls under the policy of acceptable practice.Die4Dixie (talk) 19:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Removing personal attacks may be acceptable, although as noted it is controversial. If you must do so, you should remove the entire comment and indicate clearly in the text that the personal attack has been removed. Changing someone's words without any indication of this on the page is not acceptable. -- SCZenz (talk) 06:26, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I did note that I removed the attack in the summary. Next time I will be less ambiguous. Thank you for your moderate tone. Other Administrators could learn from you.Die4Dixie (talk) 01:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Words in precise senses

Could you maybe talk to lulu and scjessy? LuLu is an atheist, which is ok, but I question his labeling a member of the clergy a mere orator and perhaps he is not familiar with naming conventions within Christian sects. Judging from his statements on the talk page, he mistakenly believes that a visiting pastor from another denomination cannot give a sermon in a differently denominated house of worship, and that this was merely a speech. He then edited the page ignoring our working towards consensus. If you can talk to them and reign them in , I will try and contact Worker bee and do the same. I'm sick of the constant bickering about the pettiest of things. This appears to be one.Die4Dixie (talk) 23:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I stumbled across this comment of yours. It seems as if you are operating under a certain misunderstanding about my comments and edits. Specifically, you seem to think I believe the word "oratory" is somehow a pejorative or dismissive word. It really isn't. I happen to know something about the history of terms (and of rhetoric), and about the history of religious practices, and I think "oratory" is, if anything, rather a term of praise or exaltation. Of course, I'm also admittedly slightly curmudgeonly about newfangled misunderstanding of fine classical words with precise meanings. For example, in a Protestant denomination, I would cringe at a pastor being described as a deacon (or vice versa), but not because the one role is better than the other, rather entirely because the words mean different things (even if some people confuse them). LotLE×talk 00:58, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

As I stated before, oratory robs the action of its religious context. This would seem to substantiate this. Sermon is unambiguous. I do appreciate your cordial response.Die4Dixie (talk) 00:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Funny. "Oratory" is usually used in its religious context. Enough so that the first listed sense in many dictionaries is this historically secondary specifically Catholic meaning:

oratory 1 |ˈôrəˌtôrē; ˈär-|
noun ( pl. -ries)
1 a small chapel, esp. for private worship. 
[ORIGIN: Middle English : from Anglo-Norman French oratorie, from  
ecclesiastical Latin oratorium, based on Latin orare ‘pray, speak.’ ]
2 ( Oratory) (in the Roman Catholic Church) a religious society of secular 
priests founded in Rome in 1564 to provide plain preaching and popular 
services and established in various countries. [ORIGIN: from Congregation 
of the Fathers of the Oratory.]

Obviously, I mean that speaking itself in this discussion, rather than the noun for the place Catholics designate for the religious speech. Oh well, I don't really care that much about "sermon" either; I don't know enough about Obama's UCC denomination to know specifically whether they would call a visiting priest's talk a "sermon" or not, but unless there is a specific source indicating it, it's not an inaccuracy we need to worry unduly about. LotLE×talk 01:27, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your patience. I think the three sources that I showed on the talk page make the case for it having been a sermon. A wiki link to oratory here would confuse readers, while one to sermon would edify them.Die4Dixie (talk) 01:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean "edify" as in?

ORIGIN Middle English : from Old French edifier, from Latin aedificare 
‘build,’ from aedis ‘dwelling’ + facere ‘make’ (compare with edifice ). 
The word originally meant  also  
hence to “build up” morally or spiritually.

Just curious. :-). Best wishes, LotLE×talk 01:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

(Spanish: Edificio = building/structure) Just to give more input reg. this ;) . Regards from another curious one, --Floridianed (talk) 01:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Ops. In context: Spanish: edificar = build on, enhance etc.! That comes closer to Dixi's context. --Floridianed (talk) 02:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Main Entry:

   ed·i·fy Listen to the pronunciation of edify

Pronunciation:

   \ˈe-də-ˌfī\ 

Function:

   transitive verb 

Inflected Form(s):

   ed·i·fied; ed·i·fy·ing

Etymology:

   Middle English, from Anglo-French edifier, from Late Latin & Latin; Late Latin aedificare to instruct or improve spiritually, from Latin, to erect a house, from aedes temple, house; akin to Old English ād funeral pyre, Latin aestas summer

Date:

   14th century

1archaic a: build b: establish2: to instruct and improve especially in moral and religious knowledge : uplift; also : enlighten, inform.

It is in this sense that I use the word. I attended a public school in the UK, and my mother is a British subject. We often used edify in the sense of instruct. I love language and am seeking a Masters in Spanish linguistics. I enjoy this more than Obama.Die4Dixie (talk) 13:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Also from your source on oratory :or·a·to·ry2 • n. the art or practice of formal speaking in public. ∎ exaggerated, eloquent, or highly colored language: learned discussions degenerated into pompous oratory. DERIVATIVES: or·a·tor·i·cal / ˌôrəˈtôrikəl/ adj.

To describe his speech as exaggerated, highly colored, or eloquent, we would need a third party source. We have three that called it a sermon. ;) Die4Dixie (talk) 13:23, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I definitely didn't intend to use the sense of characterizing Pfleger's speech as exaggerated, eloquent or highly-colored. I don't necessarily disagree with any of the characterizations either, but it's not my place to make such WP:OR characterization. I do think the first sense is the one readers are more likely to read. I also wouldn't characterize the speech as Sermon: (informal) a long or tedious piece of admonition or reproof (again, not because I disagree as such, but because it's original research). Those darn words often have multiple meanings :-). LotLE×talk 17:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Main Entry:

   ser·mon Listen to the pronunciation of sermon

Pronunciation:

   \ˈsər-mən\ 

Function:

   noun 

Etymology:

   Middle English, from Anglo-French sermun, from Medieval Latin sermon-, sermo, from Latin, speech, conversation, from serere to link together — more at series

Date:

   13th century

1 : a religious discourse delivered in public usually by a clergyman as a part of a worship service 2 : a speech on conduct or duty — ser·mon·ic Listen to the pronunciation of sermonic \ˌsər-ˈmä-nik\ adjective It's hard to see where you get your definitions from. ZI think the only religious context for "oratory" is the part in a church. There is no acceptance for a religious context other than this. I can't imagine anyone trying to use the word for a part of a building for a religious sermon. I imagine that if you use a good dictionary, like the one I'm referencing, it would clear up any misconceptions you might have about le mot juste with oratory and sermon (tongue firmly in cheek :0Die4Dixie (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The definition I copied for "sermon" was from Apple's dictionary. I'm pretty sure they license Merriam-Webster, with various additions, but I can't see that right now in the About screen (it might be interesting to know edition, version, etc). Apple's dictionary is pretty good, but so are lots of others. LotLE×talk 19:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Re: "Spanish in United States Virgin Islands" and "Userpage"

(noticed that one link