Misplaced Pages

I beat you all to it:

OMG you protected The Wrong Version! Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Protected

...please work out content disputes here on the talk page. · Katefan0 21:13, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

clean slate

Good call, Hip. Obviously there are still valid discussions going on, so lets just reiterate some of our concerns here while trying to be civil. A note to BigDaddy, before you continue to "quote" Jimbo Wales, keep in mind the Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Misplaced Pages explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Misplaced Pages. --kizzle 21:15, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

By the way, if I could request that people who want to discuss certain passages here use this as a template, you don't have to but it makes things a helluva lot easier when this page gets cluttered up:

Also to BD: There is no such thing as a supervisor here. There are mediators and RFC's, but no supervisors. "Quotes" by Jimbo Wales are not necessarily policy, for official policies look at Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines. Derex 21:23, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I think the first thing is to remove those who INSIST on making personal attacks after being warned. Paul Klenk WARNED Ryan that calling my reasoned changes 'vandalism' was a personal attack, yet Ryan has done so since that warning two more times. He has also BLAMED ME PERSONALLY for this article being blocked from editing --"You have succeeded in driving this article single-handedly into an 'NPOV' tag and now, page protection - in short, you are disrupting Misplaced Pages"-- This is not only a personal attack, it's ridiculous since I didn't do the block, don't know how to do a black and was still trying to edit some pieces when the block was instituted. Bottom Line: We can't work on this cooperatively when obvious violations of the 'no personal attacks' rules are tolerated without consequence.

Quite simply, for the umpteenth time, it's not a personal attack. Your behavior here, on an article that has been relatively civil, has set the tone here... and your deletion without valid reason, followed by your revert warring to preserve your unjustified deletion from rightful reversion (which is one of the definitions of vandalism) caused the block. Will you take responsibility for your actions? -- RyanFreisling @ 22:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Secondly, we need to find out what Jimmy Wales meant when he said the articles should be supported with IMPARTIAL sources or if he really said that at all. This is a key issue for getting to the heart of what is and is not acceptable. In addition, I propose that every section that slams Karl Rove be balanced by some praiseworthy note of accomplishment. I can provide just as many positive facts as can his detractors provide negative, as they've so ably demonstrated their ability to do and fight anyone who dares question their particualar credulity.Big Daddy 21:25, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Misplaced Pages explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Misplaced Pages.--kizzle 21:26, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Impartiality

I'm shocked and somewhat disturbed by all the advocates of what I can only characterize as 'sliming.'

Either Jimmy Wales, the founder of Misplaced Pages meant what he said when he was quoted as saying the articles must be backed by IMPARTIAL sources, or he was misquoted (and the burden is on those claiming that as no retraction has been made by CNN) or he is a liar trying to deceive the public that Misplaced Pages is something that it's not and that all you editors chiding me for bringing this up know it is not.

The Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Misplaced Pages explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Misplaced Pages. --kizzle 22:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I think we would be better served by finding out, if Jimmy Wales said this and why so many in here disregard his admonition.

The Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Misplaced Pages explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Misplaced Pages. --kizzle 22:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Ps My personal feelings is that you cannot use partial sources and most people know that. For example if someone insisted, on using The Elders of Zion to trash Jews, they would be banned as they should be. But, when it serves the POV of certain editors, I believe they will conveniently defend the use of partial sources to trash people they don't like. Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so... Big Daddy 21:52, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I think we would be better served by adhering to Misplaced Pages's plainly delinated policies, and concentrating on resolving content disputes, instead of attempting to game the system. · Katefan0 21:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, this is just too funny. I'm appealing for IMPARTIALITY and quoting the FOUNDER and I'm accused of 'gaming the system.' I think that counts as not only an egregious personal attack and a violation of 'assume good faith' but really warrants an apology.Big Daddy 22:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The Reuters article you cite doesn't quote Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. I believe we can trust Misplaced Pages explicit policies over the interpretations of someone who doesn't even use Misplaced Pages. --kizzle 22:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I guess to some, a 'blank slate' just means 'continue your erroneous arguments'. CNN does not equal policy. You know all this, but you seem unable to modify your argument accordingly... because it is a flawed argument. -- RyanFreisling @ 21:55, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Dangerously close to your third personal attack in three tries. Big Daddy 22:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Push Poll

Passage:

According to the campaign manager of John McCain's 2000 presidential bid, a push poll was conducted during the 2000 South Carolina primaries which asked potential voters "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". ,,,,, Since McCain was campaigning with his adopted Bangladeshi daughter, an image quickly gathered around that statement. The authors of the book Bush's Brain (also made into a movie)allege that Rove was involved in this push poll due to his intimate role as campaign advisor to Bush. In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the campaign." No proof of his direct involvement has ever surfaced.

Discussion:

There's no reason not to include the quotes - first whoever said they had no idea, and then the person who said it came from on high, and whatever other quotes we can dredge up. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:16, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

BigDaddy keeps introducing the quote about the campaign managers not knowing specifically who made the calls as if its mutually exclusive to them believing Rove was ultimately behind the idea. I don't believe such a point is worthwhile to include, as it does no such thing and thus is tertiary. --kizzle 21:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but he was given the opportunity, in a grand forum, to report SPECIFICALLY on what he believed about this incident and SPECIFICALLY said 'he doesn't know.' I'm sorry but that's as definitive as it gets, unless you simply want to put words in someone's mouth.Big Daddy 21:42, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

At the same time, there are just way too many sources about the push poll. Pick the best one. The initial insertion was a bit WP:POINT. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:32, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Amen, I believe the Boston Globe is the most reliable out of the bunch. --kizzle 21:37, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

The sources were added to demonstrate that BD's argument for his repeated deletions - that this was the work of one author (that of the piece 'Bush's Hit Man') - was false. I see no reason to keep any but the Globe, since they are widely known to have 'broken' the story. I don't see it as WP:POINT when done to refute an erroneous excuse for vandalism. -- RyanFreisling @ 21:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, so you added them? Thanks. Good to know. The problem with the sources is that one is a book review of Al Franken's hate screed (not even close to an impartial source) and a couple of them didn't even MENTION Karl Rove. Secondly, you mischaracterized my objection. I do object to the use of Bush's hit man as it's not only biased but because it offers no proof. Now some argue we should just vomit up all the slime we can on Rove and whatever sticks...sticks, and whatever can be refuted, ought to be. I say there comes a point where we are better served by just not including certain things where there is no proof. Especially in this article where there's a BUNCH of proof-less assertions (like him bugging his own office for example.)

Finally, let the record show that although Paul Klenk warned ryan that her use of the word vandalism in my thoughtful edits was a personal attack that she continues to use them, interspersed with other personal attacks, for the third time now. I wonder how this will be handled by Wik supervisors...er...mediators...Big Daddy 22:13, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I look forward to any assistance they might provide - but my use of the term, and my communication to you, despite your constant personal attacks, does not constitute a personal attack, despite what you erroneously call a 'warning' by another user. And your threats and protestations continue... good thing they're so entertaining! -- RyanFreisling @ 22:57, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Here's what I propose:

First choice: DELETION.

Second choice: Until I can be backed up on my first choice:

According to the campaign manager of John McCain's 2000 presidential bid, a push poll was conducted during the 2000 South Carolina primaries which asked potential voters "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". ,,,,, Since McCain was campaigning with his adopted Bangladeshi daughter, an image quickly gathered around that statement. The authors of the book Bush's Brain (also made into a movie) that many critics say was created 'to make Rove look bad'allege that Rove was involved in this push poll due to his intimate role as campaign advisor to Bush. In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the campaign." In an editorial published in the Boston Globe, McCain's campaign manager said "Insert the quote here where he said he didn't know who where or for how long."

No, to either of your "choices". Your quote: "We had no idea who made the phone calls, who paid for them, or how many calls were made." Is Purposely taken out of context. The context is: "Thus, the "pollsters" asked McCain supporters if they would be more or less likely to vote for McCain if they knew he had fathered an illegitimate child who was black. In the conservative, race-conscious South, that's not a minor charge. We had no idea who made the phone calls, who paid for them, or how many calls were made. Effective and anonymous: the perfect smear campaign." You are purposely taking that quote out of context to try and invalidate the testimony of Richard H. Davis, McCain's former campaign manager. 69.121.133.154 22:08, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

First of all, what 'context' are you FALSELY accusing me of taking it out of. The man said he didn't know who did it. Period. Any INSERTION of Karl Rove into this mess is at the whim of the editor. Secondly you are in strict violation of 'assume good faith' as this impugns my motives. Big Daddy 22:20, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

• Rove Suggests Former POW McCain Committed Treason and Fathered Child With Black Prostitute. In 2000, McCain operatives in SC accused Rove of spreading rumors against McCain, such as "suggestions that McCain had committed treason while a prisoner of war, and had fathered a child by a black prostitute," according to the New Yorker. (New Yorker, 5/12/03)

• After Rove Denied Role In McCain Whisper Campaign, Reporters Concluded He Was Behind It. A December 1999 Dallas Morning News linked Rove to a series of campaign dirty tricks, including his College Republican efforts, allegedly starting a whisper campaign about Ann Richard being too gay-friendly, spreading stories about Jim Hightower's involvement in a kickback scheme and leaking the educational history of Lena Guerrero. The article also outlined current dirty tricks and whisper campaigns against McCain in South Carolina, including that "McCain may be unstable as a result of being tortured while a prisoner of war in North Vietnam." (DMN, 12/2/99) After the article was published, Rove blasted Slater in the Manchester, NH airport, "nose to nose" according to one witness, with Rove claiming Slater had "harmed his reputation," Slater later noted. But according to one witness, "What was interesting then is that everyone on the campaign charter concluded that Rove was responsible for rumors about McCain." (The Nation, 3/5/01)

• Bush Campaign Acknowledged Making Phone Calls. Tucker Eskew, Bush's South Carolina spokesman, acknowledged the Bush campaign made such calls, but claimed they were not "push polls." Eskew added, "Show me a baseless comment in those questions." (Post and Courier, 2/8/00)

• Rove Was In Close Touch With McConnell, McCain-Feingold's Chief Opponent. Senior White House adviser Karl Rove was in close contact with Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KY) during McConnell's effort to fight the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Bill in the U.S. Senate. According to Newsweek, though Rove and Bush have publicly kept their distance from McConnell on the issue, "sources tell Newsweek that Rove is, in fact, in close touch with McConnell as GOP experts study the bill for hidden land mines." (Newsweek, 2/25/02)

And here's some fun ones for the kids!!

• Bush Supporters Called McCain "The Fag Candidate." In South Carolina, Bush supporters circulated church fliers that labeled McCain "the fag candidate." Columnist Frank Rich noted that the fliers were distributed "even as Bush subtly reinforced that message by indicating he wouldn't hire openly gay people for his administration." (Washington Post, 2/18/00; Rich op-ed, Austin American-Statesman, 2/29/00)

• McCain Slurs Included Illegitimate Children, Homosexuality And A Drug-Addict Wife. Among the rumors circulated against McCain in 2000 in South Carolina was that his adopted Bangladeshi daughter was actually black, that McCain was both gay and cheated on his wife, and that his wife Cindy was a drug addict." (Ivins column, The Nation, 6/18/01)

--kizzle 22:05, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Can you provide the LINKS to articles where Karl Rove is SPECIFICALLY mentioned as being behind the McCain incident? You've proven your quite able to collect a lot of garbage on rove but a lot of these excerpts either don't mention rove or (in the only legit looking source Newsweek) don't mention McCain. Please try and PROVIDE specific proof for this false allegation that McCain's manager who knows says was done anonymously. Ps It seems to me this non-stop barrage of articles from those who disagree with my position that PROVE NOTHING ONE WAY OR THE OTHER suggests their argument is quite weak. OTOH, I have the facts to back me up. Not slime inneundo and extraneous garbage collecting. Just provide me one IMPARTIAL source who says KARL ROVE was directly involved in the push polling. 'All the way at the top' from a low ranking McCain official does not count as it mentions no names and is jut an opinion backed up by nothing and contradicted by the campaign manager who, while not being impartial himself, at least admitted he just doesn't know. Big Daddy 22:20, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Sure thing, thought you saw it above but I'll repeat it:

Rove Suggests Former POW McCain Committed Treason and Fathered Child With Black Prostitute. In 2000, McCain operatives in SC accused Rove of spreading rumors against McCain, such as "suggestions that McCain had committed treason while a prisoner of war, and had fathered a child by a black prostitute," according to the New Yorker. (New Yorker, 5/12/03)

:) --kizzle 22:28, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, but I'd like to see the link please. I'd like to see who in the New Yorker wrote this and in what context it was written. Thanks again, if this checks out, it could be useful. However, if this piece turns out to be something else it will be discrediting. Let's just take a look, shall we? Big Daddy 22:34, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Not sure if there is one... we can still attribute to the New Yorker, if you or anyone else has lexis-nexis, it'd be much appreciated to analyze the article. Until then, I think this serves your purpose. Keep in mind, even if the campaign manager didn't say it, an entire movie and book (both of which satisfy Misplaced Pages policy as notable sources) was made alleging Rove was behind it, which is enough to warrant the passage's inclusion in this article. --kizzle 22:40, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Not so fast...I did a little research. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you pull this information from the DSSC site (Democrat Senatorial Campaign Committee) whose stated purpose is 'electing a Democratic senate'?? Here is the link: http://www.dscc.org/news/roundup/20050708_steele/ The Rove/Mccain reference looks an awful like what you dredged up...

... An AWFUL lot...lol!

Ps Get the article in question so I, and others, can have a look, or no dice. Bush's Brain is no more a credible source than the Clinton Chronicles or The Elders of Zion. Critics say Bush's Brain was created 'to make karl rove look bad.' Not Impartial which I still maintain is the policy not simply 'notable' but I'm getting a clarification on that from someone way high up in Wik as we speak...Big Daddy 22:48, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Much as you might wish it were so, Misplaced Pages is not an authoritarian state. -- RyanFreisling @ 22:59, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

You know that blogcritic article you linked, it was reviewed by some random chick named "El Bicho" who just has a blogspot page... apparently you don't hold movie reviews to the same standards of notability as your other edits. As for impartiality, first of all, the Reuters article does not "quote" Jimbo Wales as saying "impartial sources", those are the writer's words. Secondly, if you maintain that policy dictates usage of only "impartial" sources, then go to Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources, and Misplaced Pages:Cite_sources and do a word-search in your browser for "impartial"... tell me how many results you get. To actually quote Misplaced Pages policy:

• The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth.
• find a specific person or group who holds that opinion, mention them by name, and give a citation to some place where they can be seen or heard expressing that opinion.

--kizzle 23:21, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Kizzle,

In deference to Ryan's admonition, I'll try not to be so 'authoritarian' lol! Now what blogcritic link are you referring to? The movie review of Bush's Brain? Please be more specific.

As to the point of Misplaced Pages's threshold - I understand that it's verifiability, not truth. That's not my point.

My point is, as Katefan I think pointed out, you can't just edit the article to say rove is a cross dresser because some guy in a blog posted it. But that's verifiable.

So, it's more than just verifiability. It does ultimately go, as Jimmy Wales says (and for all your protestations that he didn't necessarily say that, why not contact Wik directly and find out if he did, or are you afraid to know? hmmm...) to IMPARTIALITY. We don't have an encyclopedia if it's not fair balanced and impartial.

Now impartial does NOT mean you can't quote the Nation or The Wall Street Journal. But pieces like Bush's Brain and Bush's Hit Man are not legit because they're obvious motive is to smear Rove without regard for balance. So, even if the New England Journal of Medicine published 'Bush's hit man' it would not be acceptable due to bias problems.

Finally, I'm sure if you go to liberal commentators's articles you will find no such debate. What Rush Limbaugh said about Al Franken is not gonna be in the Al Franken article even though it's clearly both notable and verifiable...Big Daddy 23:44, 16 September 2005 (UTC)