Talk:Russo-Georgian War - Misplaced Pages

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POW's

Will someone edit the casualties section of the infobox, it should be put in the Russian part of the casualties section 19 missing (5 captured), as the reference I provided confirms that 5 soldiers or pilots were captured, also the given reference and plus this one confirm that 15 georgian soldiers were captured during the conflict in South Ossetia and another 22 were captured today in Poti so it should be put in the georgian casualty section something like this: 215 soldiers killed, 300 missing and 37 captured, based on these two references. Will anyone make this edit?

New articles about buffer zones?

Should we have new articles about South Ossetia buffer zone and Abkhazia buffer zone since these two areas are new reality on the ground? See: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/2008820143346769471.html 212.69.4.242 (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as I understand we don't know now the extent of these zones and their legal status, so let's wait a bit. Alæxis_¿question? 20:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, does anybody have a map of these buffer zones? 212.69.4.242 (talk) 20:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks a little premature. If you want to create a new article, this could be War crimes in Georgia or Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Georgia like in article Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia. But you have to register to create an article.Biophys (talk) 20:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that somebody could be interested to read about false allegations for ethnic cleansing. Contrary to this, these buffer zones are new reality and the purpose of Misplaced Pages is to have articles about all existing things. And do not worry, I am registered, and I can use my Wiki account when I need to. 81.18.62.141 (talk) 14:40, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, I found a map of a buffer zone: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7578250.stm 81.18.62.141 (talk) 18:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The buffer zones were defined in 1999 and 1992 agreements, does WP have articles on these agreements? That would probably be more important than an article on the zones themselves, or maps of such zones.Anatoly.bourov (talk) 16:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Comparison with Hitler

The Economist in its August 16th print issue, on p. 11 (see online) writes: "Russia has made perfunctory attempts to justify the invasion. It claimed that it was defending Russian citizens. This excuse, as Sweden’s foreign minister tartly noted, recalled Hitler’s justifications of Nazi invasions." User:Mateat 2:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed before (please see archives of this talk page). Andrei Illarionov noted that such analogy is not entirely correct. Hitler's occupation was justified by the Munich Agreement signed by other countries. Unlike Hitler's occupation of Czechoslovakia or US invasion of Iraq, the invasion of Georgia by Russia was a completely unilateral action conducted without any consultations with other countries (S. Ossetia does not count since it was not recognized internationally) - according to him Biophys (talk) 03:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of my comment was to include a link to a highly respected source (The Economist) quoting the foreign minister of a country (Sweden) with a long tradition of neutrality, and not to argue whether the analogy drawn with Hitler is appropriate. User:Mateat 4:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Then you do not need discussion. Just go ahead and include this in the article.Biophys (talk) 04:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Opinion of that guy is irrelevant no matter how respectable or neutral he is.(Igny (talk) 04:46, 23 August 2008 (UTC))

If you didn't know it Carl Bildt isn't just foreign minister of Sweden but also Chairman of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe. It explains why he went to Tbilisi during the war. So whether you like his opinions or not they are surely relevant here. Narking (talk) 06:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it is notable due to both the possitions he holds and his activity durring this conflict. 13:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that this is an official position of Sweden or the Committee of Ministers or the Council of Europe? Whoever the guy is, his "tart remarks" are irrelevant. I also read many other opinions comparing Putin/Medvedev or their actions with Bush, Clinton, Kennedy, Stalin, Hitler, Peter the Great, and so what? They are all irrelevant to the conflict here. (Igny (talk) 17:57, 23 August 2008 (UTC))

The Economist has such a stellar reputation of predicting Russian military actions, that it's managed to call every Russian military conflict dead wrong. Just read their editorials on Russia losing the Second Chechen Wars. Or their editorials on the US winning in Iraq. Or the one about Ukraine going to war with Russia. How can any military professional take them seriously? Militarily, they're a joke, and this is a war, ergo military, article. The Economist is a respectable source in ECONOMY, not in military history, where they, quite frankly, get nearly everything wrong. Also, comparisons are irrelevant. I can easily write up an article comparing Saakashvili to Stalin, and anyone, with enough imagination, can compare Bush and/or Putin to Stalin as well. Stalin's so popular these days, I think there has to be a wikipedia article about him somewhere. Honorable Misplaced Pages editors, Mateat and Narking, you can help out the Stalin Article, and create the list of the people he's been compared to, because for this article, it's irrelevant! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.166.129.39 (talk) 07:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Deleted interfax news "reconstructed" via google cache

Following news was publshed by interfax on August 5th , 2008 - and then obviously deleted in its newsarchive after August 11th. The news according google cache: http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:hP3H7LWp00MJ:www.interfax.com/3/416284/news.aspx+http://www.interfax.com/3/416284/news.aspx&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de

11:06 GMT, Aug 05, 2008 Volunteers arriving in South Ossetia - president's envoy MOSCOW. Aug 5 (Interfax) - Volunteers are arriving in South Ossetia to offer help in the event of Georgian aggression, Dmitry Medoyev, a South Ossetian presidential envoy, has said. "Volunteers are arriving already, primarily from North Ossetia. Ossetians are one nation and one culture," Medoyev said at a news conference in Moscow on Tuesday. Russian regions in the North Caucasus, and Russian Cossacks have demonstrated readiness to support South Ossetia, he said. "We have received offers of help from the North Caucasus and from the Cossacks in southern Russia," Medoyev said. "But Tskhinvali will count on its own forces in the first instance. We have armed forces of our own," he said. A guerilla war will begin in the event of Georgian aggression against South Ossetia, and South Ossetia will launch a railway warfare against Georgia, Medoyev said. "We will watch how Georgia will manage to fulfill its oil transit obligations then," said Medoyev.

Elysander (talk) 08:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... in the early days of the Russia-Georgia war, there were several reports at gazeta.ru and lenta.ru about the big losses suffered by the Russians between Tchinvali and Dzhava. They were then deleted within a few hours. The FSB guys act quickly... --93.177.151.101 (talk) 08:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Use google cache for a search, but you need the original url's Elysander (talk) 08:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

This is definitely notable should be included in the article. Hobartimus (talk) 08:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Check history!! This notable information was already inserted in the article (maybe at a wrong place) but deleted by Igny as hearsay. :-)) Elysander (talk) 08:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's the original article in Russian. The news archive database of interfax.com seems to be much smaller. --Illythr (talk) 12:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the info!! A smaller database cannot be the reason because you can find several English written articles/news of 2007 and earlier by search. Elysander (talk) 12:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Eh, I couldn't find any that are older than August 10th? Its three news databases Russian & CIS, Central Europe, China are cut off at the same date. --Illythr (talk) 20:32, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm ... check for example ].. Articles go back til October 2007. Elysander (talk) 21:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Uhh, the page you link to provides news articles from Aug 11th through Aug 20th to me... The site does have things like this, but those are not news articles. --Illythr (talk) 22:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe a browser problem on your side? I was just clicking my "example search link" above and found 132 documents ( news, headlines, articles) with "sarkozy" inside in a not-chronological order - back til October 2007 ;)

Addition & correction : Articles (underlined) go back deep in 2007 - news/headlines not before August 11th Elysander (talk) 23:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Of the 132 articles - two date before Aug 10 and both are from different sections. Anyhow, if there were any sinister intent there, I doubt they'd leave the Russian article intact like that. ;-) --Illythr (talk) 00:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to correct you ;) - there are 132 documents under the certain keyword ( example: sarkozy ). Obviously only ( selected ?) articles are archived longer than 10 (?)days in the English interfax news online archive, simple headlines/news ( without text) vanishing after few days. The above mentioned article belongs to the non-selected articles. Elysander (talk) 09:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Check their categories. The documents still accessible are not from the "news" cat. --Illythr (talk) 11:14, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

More of this story is at http://www.ogj.com/search/results.cfm?si=OGJ&collection=ogj&keywords=Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan&x=17&y=11 the oil and gas journal. 13:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this is correct information by Interfax. It was corroborated by other publications, for example RFE/RL.Biophys (talk) 19:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

"massive looting" in Gori

User:Advokat has just removed the UN official's report of massive looting in Georgian settlements as an "unconfirmed information with a link to a non-existing page". This is a lie. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LH617289.htm the page is accessible and the article says:

"A United Nations aid convoy managed to enter Gori on Sunday, the first time U.N. organisations have reached the Georgian town since fighting started last week, and found signs of "massive looting". --93.177.151.101 (talk) 08:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

But UN place to website photos of military base in Gori.--UAV2000 (talk) 19:12, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The aforementioned news post contains no photo's. What are you talking about? --Hkinaf (talk) 19:57, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Bottom. Latest Images section.--UAV2000 (talk) 20:43, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Number of Casulties

Russia states 65 dead russians, 121 wounded 8 tanks and 2 aircrafts lost. They state, 4000 ( of 2000 georgian soldiers who took part in the operations ) were killed.

Of course, much more than 2000 georgian troops were commited - even reservists saw some action (mostly being bombed while moving as reinforcements out of Gori). 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Rocki tunnel, Georgian Battalion shot the whole ammunition at every russian tank that left :the tunnel, at least, 12 destroyed. ( crew: 48 dead ), before leaving

Stupid lies, both ends of Roki tunnel are being heavily guarded all the time, and were never challenged. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, the protection of the Roki tunnel was the more important task for ossetians than the defence of their own capital. "Unofficial" picture of that war shows, that the most part of ossetian forces was used to stop georgians whose went in the direction of this tunnel, so in Tskhinval (it's the ossetian name, Tskhinvali - the georgian one... And what name should we use?..), the second target of georgian forces, defence forces have been presented mainly by ossetian militia (russian term "opolchenie") and peacekeepers. (Pubkjre (talk) 16:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC))

Kodori heights, georgian regiment held every position against 5 russo-abkhaz attacks before retreating back to Tbilisi. 584 abkhaz dead, 96 russian dead. 1 Grad destroyed, 12 armored vehicles destroyed ( crew: at least 24 dead )

Abkhaz losses - 1 dead, 1 wounded. Georgian losses also presumed to be small - they fled the area without hardly any fight after their main ammo depot was destroyed by abkhaz artillery. Russian troops didn't participate. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, abkhazian side claims that all military operations, include air strikes, in Kodori were performed only by abkhazian forces, without russians. Sometimes georgians claims that russians bombs Kodori, after that abkhazians officials says that those air strikes were done by abkhazian air forces. I think that it's possible to found sources with such abkhazian claims... (Pubkjre (talk) 16:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC))

Gurja, GRU elite special forces knocked out when engaged and ambushed by georgian :commandos Casulties: 45 of 80 russian dead, 2 georgian commandos.

Another fantasy with no proof whatsoever. There is, however, a video of 22 corpses of georgian commandos rotting in some forest area near Tskhinval. Georgian government was offered to retrieve them after the ceasefire, but gave no answer. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Battle for 12 villages around Tskhinvali, heavy fights, high losses on both sides. Casulties: 125 georgian, 145 russian. ( Disadvantage for russian forces )

Russian column passed georgian villages unopposed all the way to Tskhinval. The only somewhat stiff resistance was met around Zemo-Nicozi. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

1st battle of Tskhinvali: Georgian artillery destroyed ossetian positions around the capitol, :200-1000 ossetian dead, Ossetian tanks and armor do not exist anymore. Georgian troops :enter the city, loosing 4 T-72 MBT's. Heavy fights in the city. 45 georgian dead 3 tanks lost, 300 ossetian dead 8 tanks given up, 18 :russian peacekeepers dead 150 wounded, retreat of Russo-Ossetian Forces.

Ossetians didn't have any tanks in Tskhinval. And before the fight, all of ossetian armor was kept locked by peacekeepers, as previous agreements dictate. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

2st battle of Tskhinvali: Russia advances against Tskhinvali, Georgian positions repell 7 attacks destroying 8 russian T-72 MBT's ( crew: 32 dead ) and killing 36 russians . Russian Air Force bombs armor and positions in Tskhinvali. 18 dead georgians. Georgia leaves Tskhinvali because of heavy bombardement and ceasefire agreement.

8 russian T-72 MBTs carry 24 crew members, not 32. I.e. crew of T-72 is only 3 men, not 4 ones like in many other MBTs. So, a source for such information is at least "strange". (Pubkjre (talk) 20:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC))

Yeah, this kid is totally unaware of even such basic facts, and still tries to fool us adults here :) 195.218.210.190 (talk) 01:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian Air Force 7 days bombardament kills 42 georgian soldiers and destroys up to 20 :tanks and armor in Georgia. Georgian Special Forces and Units shoot down 22 russian SU-24/SU-25/MiG-29 and one Tu-22 with Stingers and light AA systems. Heavy AA batteries ( like S-120 ) were never used in this 7 days.

The entire "war" lasted only 5 days. Besides, last georgian radar was knocked out on the third night. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Gori: 1000 russian airborne troops try to take Gori by surpirse attack from sky. Operation failed. Number of Casulties unknown, Georgians still controlled the city. Russian armor advances from Tskhinvali to Gori. Georgian troops leave the city to show the rest of :the world, what are the true interests of Putin. Taking over whole Caucasia.

Battle of Gori: georgian troops see their Magnificient Supreme Commander scared of some unknown threat (a ghost perhaps?), panic and run all the way to Tbilisi, leaving huge stockpiles of weapons and abandoned vehicles behind them. :) Russian air force spared their sore asses because fleeing troops mixed with refugees on the road. 195.218.210.190 (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

During the ceasefire agreement a convoy of georgian soldiers and special units were :ambushed by russian tanks and armors, leaving 18 dead georgians and 3 destroyed georgian :Toyota SF jeeps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL (talk • contribs) 11:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Ehm, and what are the sources you used? Alæxis_¿question? 11:07, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, as of now, no sources are available for such details. But what ComanL wrote here largely coincides with my own sources among the Georgian military and Russian journalists. There are some other things I would like to add to the description of the Russia-Georgia war, but I can not obviously provide published sources. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 11:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The above estimate of 444 (assuming all downed Russian pilots as well as the "1000 airborne troops over Gori" survived) exceeds the official Georgian estimate of 400, so a source would be most interesting to see. It would also be nice to trace the Russian claim of 4000 Georgian casualties to a Russian source. --Illythr (talk) 13:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Still, I see too many POVs "Georgian troops leave the city to show the rest of :the world, what are the true interests of Putin. Taking over whole Caucasia" "Georgia leaves Tskhinvali because of heavy bombardement and ceasefire agreement" and not a single reliable source. Also, I see the user having a pro-georgian POV in some articles. It would be interesting if it could be proven, though--Jaimevelasco (talk) 17:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I also see these problems but as long as no references whatsoever are provided there's no point in arguing about them. Alæxis_¿question? 18:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I want to see CormanL's sources. However, his "inside sources" seem to mesh with rumors of something of a Russian military debacle that I've heard (along the lines of thirty Russian armored vehicles destroyed and hundreds dead in the first day of fighting alone) and their reluctance to advance on Tblisi outright. One would think that if the Russian military was up to the task of overthrowing the Georgian government they would have done so. What, do any of us here seriously think world public opinion will stop an army in its tracks? 66.66.154.162 (talk) 04:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

It's much better for Russia to keep completely discredited and laughable buffoon Saaka in power, just now he's doing worse for Georgia than any hypotetical "russian puppet" :) 195.218.210.160 (talk) 15:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

map for article

Ethno-Linguistic Map of Europe Before 1914 with Ossetians and Abkhazians . Public Domain?--UAV2000 (talk) 20:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- How is it relevant for the 2008 article? Colchicum (talk) 21:33, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

- - Because it shows where different ethniticities lived. If you can find an updated version - go for it. Russia charged Georgia with Ethnic Clensing, so an ethnicity map is valid. I'm not sure if 1914 is the one to use, but I don't see a problem with an updated version of it being used.

US Humvee's

Ive been looking around, and apparently Russian forces have taken several United States Humvees that were at docks for transport. Can anyone find more sources for this? Does this merit inclusion?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-seizes-us-vehicles-902432.html Dtheweather9 (talk) 21:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't mention Putin!

The present infobox is rather peculiar - another good night's sleep for Russia's No. 1 - Vladimir Putin. According to WP consensus (huh...) Putin has nothing to do with this war... Why, btw, are the Russians so anxious of cleaning the article from his name? I thought Putin was the role model for contemporary Russians. What Putin does is always right. Nothing to be ashamed of. Or is it? 213.50.111.114 (talk) 21:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a Russian; I removed it, as discussed above. The infobox is intended for military commanders, not heads of government or chiefs of state. Check other articles on wars, and see how rarely kings, presidents, and prime ministers are listed; except when, like Frederick II of Prussia, they in fact held chief field command. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:39, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I am Canadian Russian, and I don't get it, what does Putin have to do with this conflict? He is as related to the conflict as Bush. 68.151.34.161 (talk) 11:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I think Putin should be included in the infobox. The war has been in the pipeline for some time and Putin has been personally involved in convincing Russian officers with second thoughts about the invasion of Georiga, not to resort to such thoughts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.121.84.241 (talk) 12:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Dates

A solitary user has been changing the dating scheme to 23 August 2008. This is contrary to Misplaced Pages custom and guidance, and disruptive on this article, where we have more important things to do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:39, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Since the summary of the war has always said August 23, and so on, except when edit warred, I restored the format of that section. In the long run, it should be paragraphs, not bullet points; and a subhead for August is both redundant and dangerous; if we are unlucky enough to have another run of combat over the night of the 31st and the 1st, it should not be divided between section. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Consensus established on this page - now archived

Now we're on the brink of a "Date war?" This is English WP where both the DD.MM.YYYY or the MM.DD.YYYY are acceptable. There are no STRONG English speaking national ties involved, so use of either is acceptable as long as there is consistency throughout. I agree with Pmanderson that whatever date format came first should be used and consistently . From my time on the article, I have seen the mm.dd.yyyy used as well as the dd.mm.yyyy but the majority of useage was in the mm.dd.yyyy useage. Why war about it?--«Javier»|Talk 01:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

How about you use the ISO 8601 standard which is international use of dates? Peachey88 01:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the relevant , we see:

Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the more common date format for that nation; articles related to Canada may use either format consistently.
Articles related to other countries that commonly use one of the two acceptable formats above should use that format.

As both Georgia and Russia use day-month-year format, that format should be used here. Whether they speak English or not is immaterial. Edit-warring to include an inappropriate style is unacceptable. --Pete (talk) 02:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Pete? I don't think you have reached consensus on this, so why are you continuing to make your POV edits at this very moment? Is this your idea of WP editing?--«Javier»|Talk 07:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

According to Foreighn Minister of Georgia Ekaterine Tkeshilashwilli, Russian troops begun to advance into Georgia August 7 through the Rock Tunnel http://echo.msk.ru/programs/beseda/535961-echo/

not WP:RS.--UAV2000 (talk) 12:14, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Aslo, according to statement of the "Ossetian Prezident", all the Georgian towns and villages in South Ossetia are completely destroyed; they do not exist anymore. http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=1011783&NodesID=5

The article should mention these statements. dima (talk) 08:13, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian casualties

There are rumors of hundreds of Russian dead. My question is how can Russia even hide those hundreds of dead? Do they release the names of the dead or do they just give numbers? I understand why they'd want to hide the dead if they really have ~500 dead, but the truth would finally come out. I think that the Georgians just mistaked the Russians with South Ossetians when they were killing them. Especially that the Ossetians aren't releasing any combatant deaths and only give out numbers like 2000 civilians. The Russians and Ossetians have the same equipment and both looked "rag-tag" I wouldn't be able to tell the difference at first glance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.30.253 (talk) 09:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

just rumors--TheFEARgod (Ч) 09:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

EU peacekeepers

I heard an expert (dont remember his name) on the BBC who said that the war could have been avoided, should the EU just have deployed some peacekeepers in the two breakaway republics. According to the expert, Russia would not likely break through EU peacekeepers' line. I dont think the Russians would care so much about breaking through an EU peackeeping line. Anyway, I wonder if such a mission has ever been planned by the EU (or Nato) and possible Russian reaction to prevent such a mission to be deployed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.121.84.241 (talk) 12:27, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia has long been trying to "internationalize" the peacekeeping process in the conflict regions, but Western Europe was reluctant because of a staunch opposition from the Russians. The BBC expert was exactly right that the war could have been avoided, should the EU just have been more active. Georgia's past efforts to get the EU involved in the peacekeeping mission should be added into the background section, methinks.--93.177.147.27 (talk) 15:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

There is talk about using OSCE peacekeepers in the buffer zones, as Sarkozy and Medvedev had discussed (AlJazeera) but it's hard to find amongst all the opinion articles... Anatoly.bourov (talk) 16:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Article Status

Should the Status section now ready "Russia Occupation of Northern Georgia" rather than "Ceasefire in effect" as both the Georgians and the EU/USA (who brokered the peace deal) say that Russia is in breach of the cease fire agreement. MattUK (talk) 13:01, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

If you would like to present a NPOV view of events, then sure. If you would like to take into account Russia's POV, then no. --Russavia 13:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The views of Russia, that it is allowed to invade sovergin nations when it wants to, that wouldnt be NPOV, according to the text of the cease fire, Russia is in breach of the deal, and is according to international law an occupying force in Georgia, so it's not POV, it is FACT! MattUK (talk) 14:31, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, according to POV. We don't deal with what is TRUTH (who's truth) but what is verifiable whilst sticking to strict NPOV. If verifiable information is introduced which states the Georgian/US POV, then this needs to be counter-balanced by presenting the Russian POV, and since the Russians deny that they are occupying Georgia, then to rename the section to Russian occupation is inherently NPOV, regardless of how many RFE/RL, Jamestown and Novaya Gazeta articles some editors will use to push their own POV in demonising Russia. --Russavia 15:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Buffer zones

We need an article and map regarding the Russian buffer zones in Georgia. I'm really interested to see how large they are. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 15:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we need a more general article, Russian occupation of Georgia. Although Russia officially announced a complete withdrawal of its forces from Georgia, the officially occupied regions include Poti, block posts on many roads, the "buffer zones", Abkhazia and South Ossetia.Biophys (talk) 15:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

According to official position of Russia, the occupying forces are "peace keepers". However, they were not recognized as such by UN or any other internationally reputable organizations. So, they can not be called "peace keepers" (someone suggested "war keepers" during previous discussions here).Biophys (talk) 15:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

No, we don't need a more general POV article, in which RFE/RL, Jamestown, Novaya Gazeta and other anti-Russian opinion pieces will undoubtedly be used to create yet another Russia hate-fest article. As to peacekeepers, they are in South Ossetia under an international recognised mandate, are they not? --Russavia 15:42, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm ... the only not-synchronized nation-wide Russian newspaper calling anti-Russian is a POV master piece and discredit the writer of such lines himself. Elysander (talk) 16:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding all talk of "occupation" and peacekeeper status, OSCE monitors are beginning to arrive(OSCE_Arriving), any and all POV comments should be held off until they make statements. Opinions on compliance with the six-point peace plan are only opinions, they will only become fact if ICJ rules on it.Anatoly.bourov (talk) 15:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

erm, rather only ICJ can declare an occupation factual and/or illegal, and OSCE monitors have the power to declare non-compliance.Anatoly.bourov (talk) 15:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

What "international recognised mandate" for "peacekeepers" in Poti and other places are you talking about? There are already enough sources to create a number of "Russian occupation" or "ethnic cleansing" type articles, regardless to any future developments.Biophys (talk) 16:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I am talking about interpreting the "While awaiting an international mechanism, Russian peacekeeping forces will implement additional security measures" verbiage -- the interpretation is a matter for OSCE, and not a matter of personal opinion. The monitors are already there, we won't have to wait long before they announce what they think is happening. It is premature to declare non-compliance at this point. Once the monitors declare what they think the situation is, we can treat it as fact, until then, it's opinion.

As far as alleged occupation, that can also a matter of opinion, not fact, at this time. Starting with OSCE declarations, and proceeding to ICJ rulings, we can start those articles as it happens. Same thing for alleged ethnic cleansing, there is mention of proceedings being initiated, that is all that is fact right now.Anatoly.bourov (talk) 16:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7570949.stm

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