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Current requests

Georgewilliamherbert

Initiated by Moreschi (talk) at 20:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Moreschi (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), filing party
• Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• arguably Giano II (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Stifle (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request`

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by Moreschi

As you can see from the ANI thread, Georgewilliamherbert made an appalling, awful block of Giano for a comment that had I made, no one would blink an eyelid. Even from Giano, no one apart from George did blink an eyelid. All Giano said was "Stifle is trolling", which was arguably correct, and even if not so, hardly incivil. Massive community consensus to overturn the block, and what does George do? Puts some massive self-justifying screed on ANI (and Giano's talk) about how he's right while the rest of us humble peons are wrong.

Given that GWH has spotty history with the block button and I think this merits a couple of months off from the admin buttons. Think of it as relaxing vacation so he can re-evaluate his performance. He's not a bad guy, just seems to be a bit out of touch. Moreschi (talk) 20:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

BTW, RFC would be useless for temporary desysopping, arbcom being the only body that can do this, and I think it would be useless anyway, seeing as everyone's already told him he's wrong at ANI and he didn't listen. And he's still not listening. I see no need to open a full case: the evidence is not complex. A simple vote on this page should suffice. Moreschi (talk) 20:25, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not asking for anything drastic. Just a couple months away from the tools to think about things, because he is making bad blocks while not making really very many blocks. Moreschi (talk) 21:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Georgewilliamherbert

I believe that this is premature, as ANI and talk page discussion is still active and (in my opinion) fruitful for all parties, but will respond for the record.

My comment on ANI this morning was this one.

I stand by that statement . Before blocking, I reviewed Giano's complete contributions in that thread, other contributions recently, and the thread context on AN ( ) regarding Stifle's block of Peter Damian.

This revolves around three issues:

1. Giano making uncivil edits.
2. Giano is under prior Arbcom sanction and warnings for incivility and personal attacks (IRC case, Geogre/Wm Connelly case, older cases).
3. Giano is a longstandinding but controverisal member of the community.

My review of the situation before blocking indicated that, in my opinion, Giano was being uncivil and making personal attacks in thread. I also believe that Giano was more uncivil in that thread than the other participants by a noticeable degree. A number of administrators have chimed in that he was not uncivil, or not particularly uncivil, or it was uncivil but the discussion was generally somewhat uncivil and it was not outstandingly so. I reviewed it this morning and I still believe that it was uncivil (and not merely strongly worded opinion), was particularly uncivil and was sustained over time, and was noticably worse than the other commenters.

There was some comment that I might be attempting to restrict Giano's contributions in the thread on Stifle's use of the administrator tools. For the record, I had not participated in the discussion or formed an opinion on the issues previously, and in the course of reviewing his contributions last night I formed an opinion. That opinion is that I agree with Giano's basic premise that there was a mistaken use of the tools on Stifle's part. I concluded that his contributions were uncivil despite agreeing with them in principle.

I was reluctant to do this block, because anything touching Giano has been consistently highly dramatic over time. However, I have a strong opinion that the level of incivility in some forums is highly unhelpful to the project, and I have been working to try and minimize that, using all the appropriate and available tools (polite requests, warnings, and some blocks). I reluctantly concluded that Giano has been adequately asked and warned, and that per his extensive prior history he tends to escalate uncivil behavior once it gets started in a particular thread. I blocked to prevent that, for a short period of time, and tried to engage him on his talk page in a discussion about the ongoing corrosive effects that his incivility has on the project.

Moreschi is correct that I have been critical of many other admins on the ANI thread, though I hope it's been civil. We all need to take incivility seriously. It's horrendously bad for the project - it drives nonconfrontational editors away from pages, away from policymaking, away from participation in the community at all. Giano is, unfortunately, both a longstanding extremely positive contributor to the project, and with about 1% of his edits the poster child for incivility on Misplaced Pages. I believe that politely but firmly confronting this is both appropriate and regrettably necessary.

I would urge that the ANI and talk page threads be allowed to run for a while before this case is taken up. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

(addendum) I have reviewed Jehochman and MastCell's comments on ANI in thread, and Jehochman's below, that civility paroles and blocks may simply not work, and I am troubled by the possibility that they might be correct. I think that this is an important point to have discussed in detail (somewhere - ANI, wherever). If they don't work they should not be part of the standard administrator toolkit of responses... and if they don't work in specific cases with specific offenders, they should be taken off the table explicitly. I am not convinced, but concerned on the point... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Ryan Postlethwaite

This case is premature to say the least. Yup, GWH made a big mistake today, and has done on a couple of occasions when using the block button, but he's had no opportunity for real communal feedback into the use of his tools. I'd go as far to say that an RfC would even be premature at this point in time. George has had his feedback for the day in a large AN/I thread. Compared to some other admins, George's misconduct has been extremely minor, and the only reason why there's any aura about this is because the recipitent of the block was Giano. GWH has no hostory of blocks of Giano, and made a good faith mistake when blocking - if there's more evidence than Moreschi has already provided then perhaps an RfC would be the right way to go, but certainly they don't need escalating to this level at the minute - remember, arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution, not the first. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Jehochman

I respectfully request the Committee to review the use of Civility restriction type editing restrictions. In my experience these remedies do not create the desired result, but perhaps a scientific review of past cases may reflect otherwise. Perhaps a different approach would be more fruitful. The present case illustrates the problem that editors under civility restriction become second class citizens, and are subject to improper blocks which make their civility challenges worse, rather than better. The net result is harm to the encyclopedia. I am thinking about User:Giano II, User:ScienceApologist and User:DreamGuy as recent examples of productive contributors who have been turned into virtual punching bags. Jehochman 21:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Durova

Procedurally inadequate RFAR: no attempt at formal dispute resolution, not an emergency situation. Durova 21:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Coren

First, a point of fact: Stifle did not block Peter Damian, I did.

Secondly, I don't think this is anywhere near the purview of the Committee; this is little but a stubbornness dispute that has not degenerated into wheel warring and does not require emergency intervention. — Coren  21:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by John254

I would suggest that this case be accepted to examine Stifle's egregiously inappropriate and premature AFD nomination of Epistemic theory of miracles, which resulted in Peter Damian (talk · contribs) leaving the project in disgust, as described at , and precipitated this conflict. While there may be no prior dispute resolution with respect to this matter, how many valuable content contributors should Stifle be permitted to drive off the project before his behavior is examined by this committee? John254 21:37, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Bishonen

Civility parole does not mean "not permitted to state opinions on ANI" as far as I know. Giano's comments were not uncivil, they were strongly worded, which was appropriate to the subject of Stifle's actions (which as John254 points out, actually were "horrendously bad for the project"). Dear me. Georgewilliamherbert insists that everybody must speak the same way—namely, as if butter wouldn't melt in their mouths—or else be blocked. That's an outlandish view of our interaction here. At the very, very least he should have taken it to WP:AE for discussion before pushing the button. Disband the civility police now! To the committee: this is to be expected when you institute a remedy that says any admin gets to block the supposed "poster child for incivility". Bishonen | talk 21:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC).

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

• Recuse; peripherally involved. — Coren  21:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/1)

• Comment: Haven't decided whether to accept this yet -- would rather it were unnecessary. But regarding civility restrictions, I agree; I'll not be supporting civility "paroles" any more, as I believe they do more harm than good. --jpgordon 21:20, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

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