Talk:Chess/Archive 5 - Misplaced Pages

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Computers Vs Humans

In reference to "In 1997, a match between Garry Kasparov, then World Champion, and IBM's Deep Blue chess program proved for the first time that computers are able to beat even the strongest human players." "under standard tournament time controls" should be added.

Computers were stronger than humans even earlier in blitz games but lost routinely in tournament level play. This historic match was the first time a World Champion lost to a computer in "Standard Tournament" time control i.e 2 hours for 40 moves and then 1 hour each. xsspider —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 20:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

No, this is a false claim. Kasparov did indeed lose the match to Deep Blue, but he had won an earlier match. Deep Blue then was reprogrammed specifically to beat Kasparov. Furthermore, it is the custom that great chess players review the previous games of their opponents, which Kasparov was denied, but Deep Blue was not. Furthermore, Deep Blue was modified between games in the match, to keep Kasparov from understanding the patterns of play his opponent used. Making the claim that computers can beat human players in a fair game is utterly false. - Tom Tolnam (talk) 17:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this is true for 1997, the match was certainly surrounded with some controversy. But I don't think there is any doubt that the current top programs play on par or better with top human players, is there? HermanHiddema (talk) 09:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

No there isn't. The fact that GM Michael Adams was crushed 5.5-0.5 by the Hydra computer is proof of that.Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

In the opening paragraph of the article it says that Deep Blue beat Casparov in 1996. I was under the impression that Casparov won in 1996, but lost in 1997 (when the programmers were allowed to work with the computer between games, which in my opinion made it a contest between all of them and Casparov, rather than deep blue and Casparov). Can any of you clarify the date so that we can make the opening paragraph and this section of the article consistent? 12.190.78.178 (talk) 22:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Kasparov lost the opening game in 1996, but went on to win the match. I guess that paragraph could be worded a bit more clearly. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The intro should definitely mention the 1997 match, not the 1996 one. The 1997 is the match everyone talks about it. The single 1996 loss is largely irrelevant, given the final 4-2 scoreline - even Kasparov lost to weaker players from time to time. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Not sure it's irrelevant. It was the first time a world champion had ever been defeated by a computer in a game pleyed under normal time controls; and was front page news around the world. It got just as much attention as the 1997 match. Pawnkingthree (talk) 08:43, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

With respect, I think you're wrong there. And talk of computer superiority was quickly squashed (for the time) when Kasparov came back to win 4-2. Any number of reliable sources will tell you the 1997 match, not the 1996 game 1, was more significant. e.g. Deep Blue co-architect Feng-hsiung Hsu in IEEE Spectrum October 2007, page 45. I'll try to find some online refs later. Peter Ballard (talk) 11:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's one from CNN for starters - "Kasparov? I've heard of him. He got beaten by a computer right? Well, yes, but not just your average chess-playing PC. In 1997 Kasparov was narrowly beaten in a six-game match by the IBM supercomputer Deep Blue." Peter Ballard (talk) 12:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've changed it back to 1997; as that's the match mentioned later in the computer section and the lead should be a summary of what's in the article. Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

External Links

I dare not add a link in the section prior to running it here. Please consider the following link for posting : www.coalitionchess.com The modern music composer Arnold Schoenberg invented this game, as inspired from chess. It is different and challenging. It should please chess enthusiasts who are looking for something out-of-the-box. Thanks for considering this. mic.paquette@gmail.com

Naturally this section gets quite a bit of spam. I removed chessforum.com a few times, and it surprises me nobody else does. In any case someone keeps putting it back. I don't object having a link to a chess forum, but there are so many of them, and that's definitely not the most popular one. In fact, when you click on the link it is just a chess shop. Voorlandt 16:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I was not sure about this link, therefore I left it there, but if you think that it is spam, I will remove it, too. Cheers,--Ioannes Pragensis 06:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Granted I am new to editing wikipedia and adding links, but I find it amazing that someone would delete a link directing users to the chess collection at the Cleveland Public Library! This collection of chess literature is one of the largest in the world and anyone that knows anything about chess should know that. Could someone please tell this newbie what hoops need to be jumped through in order to provide a link to this collection through the chess entry of wikipedia? Medalby 14:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The link as given was not very specific, linking to the cpl main page, perhaps you could reintroduce it like this:

The Cleveland Public Library's John G. White Chess and Checkers Collection is the largest chess library in the world. It can be searched online

HermanHiddema 14:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for adding the link again and letting me know what was wrong with it. I am starting to realize how this whole thing works. Thank you.Medalby 12:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion: I've been hanging out at Chess.com for the last few days. They have a lot of really cool content on there, kinda like myspace for chess players. Not sure how popular it is though... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.213.14.104 (talk • contribs)

I vote for Chess.com as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.253.166 (talk • contribs)

I vote against Chess.com, there are several websites like this one and the content is actually poor. Its best feature is its domain name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.206.229.165 (talk) 14:35, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I vote for chess.com - only chess social network out there.

Another vote for Chess.com in external links, shaping up to be a great resource. Their game-diagramming & commentary system is the best I've seen. Tried to add it a while ago, but was nixed by someone. Drake 23:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I vote for Chess.com. I checked Alexa and it seems to be the most popular chess site (not necessarily the best though). Perhaps it should just have its own page (ala Game-knot, Red Hot Pawn, and Scheming Mind - where I also play)? It does have a unique mixture of features for players. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.130.255 (talk) 15:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

In general, you want to make sure the link adds to the article (e.g. using it as a source) rather than just a being a site to look at. --Sigma 7 15:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Will AssamChess.org get a place in this section. Sure, it is not that important in America, but at the same time this is the lone website on Chess from North-Eastern India. North East India BTW is home to 40 million people. The site looks nice. Have some Online Chess playing facility too. Also have blogs etc.

Do I deduce correctly from the mention at http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:No_Guru/Archive_3#IchessU that there used to be a link to our (Exeter) Chess Coaching materials, but that it has been deleted as being commercial? It really isn't. DaveRegis 20:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dave. I didn't delete it, but here's my guess: I suspect it was deleted out of relevance. An article as broad as "Chess" can only have a few links, and the editors need to be pretty brutal in keeping the list of links to a managable size. It's debatable whether the "Chess" article needs a link to chess coaching sites at all. (Personally I wouldn't mind, but I'm not fussed either way). If chess coaching links were to be included, then (based on last time I looked, years ago) yours would be worthy of consideration. But it looks to me that it was decided not to include chess coaching links at all, because I can't see any. Peter Ballard 01:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Peter (and thanks for all the quotes you sent in!) DaveRegis 19:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The link to note 14. is dead. But I'm not autoconfirmed enough to be able to marki it as ... Jontew (talk) 15:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I have deleted this reference. SyG (talk) 20:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

FIDE list of top rated players links to a wrong cite. http://ratings.fide.com/top.phtml?list=men should be. --Renessaince (talk) 01:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I have corrected it, thanks for the hint! SyG (talk) 07:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Improve Page Loading

When I refresh the page, the chess board and pieces take a long time to load. I find the png pictures to load much faster. Would it be easier to just make all the "permanent" pictures like the different moves of the pieces png files? I have very little experience with computers, just an observation. Lyctc (talk) 03:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Is en passant optional?

Is this special move optional for the palyer who has to take, or he has to take the pawn? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.50.187 (talk) 22:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Completely optional. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 22:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Unless it is the only legal move.

A question often asked is "Am I forced to capture a pawn en passant to get out of stalemate?" The answer is yes. When the en passant capture (or any other capture) is the player's only legal move, he must make the capture or resign. ...

- From Official Chess Handbook, by Kenneth Harkness, page 49. Bubba73 (talk), 18:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Edit for gender-neutral language please?

If a player's time runs out before the game is completed, he automatically loses.

while White on move must allow a draw either after 1. Kc6 stalemate or losing his last pawn by going anywhere else.

Each player, referred to by the color of his pieces

The player must not make any move that would place his king in check.

then the opponent's pawn can capture it and move to square the pawn passed over, but only on his next move.

Also, the link needs another bracket.

Thanks for these comments. As I am fairly new to the "gender-neutral" thing, could you please give us some proposals on how these sentences should be structured in order to become gender-neutral ? SyG (talk) 09:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a wikipedia howto on this at WP:GENDER. HermanHiddema (talk) 12:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the how-to, I have tried to change the ones indicated. SyG (talk) 22:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Most popular participant sport?

I've heard it said many times that 'Chess is the worlds most popular participant sport', I don't know if it's a myth, or real. I've also heard that fishing is the most popular participant sport, so I really don't know the answer. It would be interesting if something could be said in the topic about the sports popularity, at the moment there is a general statement 'chess is one of the world's most popular games'. ChessCreator (talk) 15:23, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Just found some figures in 'Organization of competitions' section, doesn't answer my question but gives some useful numbers. ChessCreator (talk)

Sport

Chess is a sport although many people mistakenly think it isn't. Perhaps it would be possible to make it clear in the lead somehow. I do realise the article makes reference to the fact it is a sport 'Birth of a sport' etc. ChessCreator (talk) 15:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe that calling chess a sport is a disputed (and not easily resolved) view. If you look through our archived discussions above, you will see opinions both ways. The Olympic movement recognises chess as a sport (see their website), but many other definitions in books etc. emphasise the 'physical activity' aspects of sports. Here in the UK, we have been unsuccessfully lobbying Government for many years to get chess recognised as a sport nationally, as our National Lottery only funds sports and the arts. If we could get some money for chess, it would make a massive difference, as most of our top GMs (Sadler, Hodgson, Nunn, McShane) have all but given up playing and there is no finance for development, good tournament venues, worthwhile prizes, etc. Returning to your central point however, if you want to call chess a 'mind sport', then that seems to be the best way to avoid any arguments. Brittle heaven (talk) 21:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I've looked through the archive and while a few (1 ,2) people have popped up and questioned if chess is a sport, they have brought no credible information to the discussion. It is just uninformed people mistakenly believing Chess is not a Sport and more the reason it make it clear in this article.

There are sources to verify that chess is a sport. Online we have The wall street journal and quite specifically listed as a sport by the International Olympic Committee. I doubt anyone would argue that the International Olympic Committee is not a reliable source.

Regarding the 'books etc emphasise the physical activity aspects of sport', I think the Sport topic here on wikipedia say it nicely when they say 'Sports commonly refer to activities where the physical capabilities of the competitor are the sole or primary determiner of the outcome (winning or losing), but the term is also used to include activities such as mind sports and motor sports where mental acuity or equipment quality are major factors.' ChessCreator (talk) 23:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Added to lead now. I don't think we should dodge this one. Why have wikipedia if not to help people become more knowledgeable. ChessCreator (talk) 00:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I admire your resolve on this one and hope that "Chess is a sport" can become a universally recognised fact. I simply make the point that there will be many people who would simply laugh at the idea - so I'm just not sure the argument is as easily won as you think. Even your own Wall Street Journal reference/article comes from the Leisure & Arts Archive, so it's fairly evident where the Journal thinks chess belongs. Does the Journal have a regular chess column? Is it in the Sports section next to the football/baseball? Even if it is, the same can't be said for the newspapers here in the UK. As for the wikipedia definition of sport, whilst I'm pleased with the way it's worded, I don't think it counts as a valid, independent source. If we use that, then we're in danger of resorting to "Chess is a sport, because I say it is" Brittle heaven (talk) 00:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Sport being a wikipedia page is not a source, but I like the way it's worded. Does the Guardian newspaper have it in the Sports section? It does online, http://sport.guardian.co.uk/. So does the telegraph telegraph, although it's not straight forward in it's presentation. ChessCreator (talk) 01:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm encouraged if the Guardian have done that to their paper version also. However, the Telegraph hadn't put chess in the Sports section, only that particular feature because it was linked to the London Olympics. I don't doubt there is plenty of evidence out there, only that it's a won argument. Brittle heaven (talk) 07:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to come with critics, but I have minor issues on the way the article has been changed:

given the style used in the rest of the article, the reference is not placed at the right place, it should be right after the punctuation point of the sentence.
it is better not to have references in the lead of the article; they should be placed in a section, and the lead shall only be a summary of the sections.
the first paragraph says "Chess is a game", and then the second paragraph says "The sport is ", this is confusing for the reader.

Could you please fix that ? I suggest to integrate the reference in the sections, and to put a general sentence in the lead explaining that, apart from being a game, chess can also be considered as a sport, an art or a science. SyG (talk) 11:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I will change this. Actually was using the word sport in the first sentence but changed it because the link didn't apply to the whole sentence.

Not sure where you get the idea about 'better not to have references in the lead of the article'. Is that your personal view or is there a wikipedia guideline on this? Other quality articles have references in the lead. Bughouse chess, Paul Morphy. It seems sensible to reference something where it's first used, else the reader could be left in doubt and unnecessary editing of the article is likely to result due to the common misconception about whether chess is a sport. ChessCreator (talk) 12:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I have to explain a bit about my comment on references in the Lead. This is clearly not a Guideline, there are plenty of featured articles with references in the Lead, and I have no great problem with that. But there is a theory/reasoning/practice thinking that as the Lead is here to sum up the article, it is better to put the references in the Sections, where they can be better used, developed and explained than in a Lead inherently concise.

I am not pushing to avoid any reference in any lead, but I notice that there are no references in the lead of that article. Thus introducing one single reference takes off some harmony and could make the reader wonder why there are no references for the other statement. If you prefer, I would agree either with no references either with each statement referenced, but mixing both approaches in the same article creates some discomfort. SyG (talk) 12:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Well please feel free to change if you desire. My feeling is that without a clear reference to assertion chess is a sport in the lead, the lead will be edited to remove the word sport. This might not occur while it's under semi-protection but very likely occur if the semi-protection is removed. ChessCreator (talk) 13:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I preferred the opening sentence the way it was to be honest. I think "game" is a more accurate word to use than "sport." If you had to choose one word to describe what chess is, more people would go for the former than the latter.Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Chess is often, though not always, regarded as a sport, but first and foremost it is a board game. That is definitely mandatory opening sentence material, although I'm not saying "sport" can't be worked into it as well. -- Jao (talk) 16:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The multi useful word 'game' seems part of the reason that Chess is not often referred to as a sport. ChessCreator (talk) 23:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The UK Goverment refused to call Chess a sport, Raymond Keene campaigned for the change, so the goverment's decision was perhaps understandable.--ZincBelief (talk) 22:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Google Gaffe

This page came up first when I Googled "chess." That's the good news.

The bad news - This page apparently provides "hyperlinked information about history, playment, literature, computer games."

"Playment???"

- Peach (talk) 06:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Very odd, but I don't see the word in this Misplaced Pages entry. Perhaps it's Google having some playment with its users? :) -Phoenixrod (talk) 07:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Info comes from Dmoz.org ChessCreator (talk) 15:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, is there any way to change this? Are you familiar with how Google works? Lyctc (talk) 02:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes I am. Change it by contacting, (resubmitting) or becoming the relevant DMOZ editor. The chances of getting it changed are slim however. SunCreator (talk) 02:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

It sure is a pity that it was inputted in wrong initially. Oh well, thanks for the quick reply. Lyctc (talk) 02:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this true? (symbolism of the pieces' movement)

Within chess, the movement of the pieces represents how their loyalty is split between the Church and the Crown. Orthogonal movement represents political (Crown) affiliation, and diagonal movement represents religious (Church) affiliation.

So, Bishops are exclusively loyal to the Church, while Rooks are exclusively loyal to the Crown. The King and Queen serve both, but not at the same time. Pawns move at the command of the Crown, but fight for their Church. Knights, with their code of chivalry, are sworn to serve both equally. So the Knights' L-Shaped movement is actually a political action combined with a religious action. 129.174.91.115 (talk) 17:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that is true. Bubba73 (talk), 17:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

It sounds more like a premise of a Dan Brown book. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 18:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Darn! I guess you can't believe everything that comes from Boardgamegeek. 129.174.91.115 (talk) 18:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The direction of movement of chess pieces (except the Queen) is much older than the medieval Church/Crown duality and the Western Chivalry Code.--Ioannes Pragensis (talk) 19:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Or, for that matter, than the English name for the "bishop" piece. Many other languages call it simply a "runner" (e.g. Template:Lang-de) or even an "elephant" (e.g. Template:Lang-es), a remnant of the Indian-Arabic heritage. The only thing it seems to have to do with the Church is that someone once thought it looked kind of like a mitre. -- Jao (talk) 19:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Castling

The player must never have moved either the king or the rook involved in castling. Does this phrase means what is intended, that is, the king have never been moved and (not or!) the rook have never been moved? At least, Wiktionary define "either X or Y" as "only one from {X,Y}".92.39.161.221 (talk) 21:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure this usage of either is incorrect (actually, I think it's correct), but it could certainly be stated clearer, so I went ahead and changed it. I hope this is better. -- Jao (talk) 22:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Is chess a sport?

I have reverted the addition of ] to this page. I do not believe there is consensus to include Chess in the "Sports" category. (Whether it is a sport or not is another question which can, of course be discussed here.) Please feel free to talk about this here on the talk page. --Craw-daddy | T | 10:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

We had a discussion on "sport vs game" a few weeks ago (see above) and the consensus there was for "game." I agree with your revert. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Pawnkingthree, the consensus was only for the preferred word game in the lead.

This issue of the category has not been discussed before. Chess is a sport and consensus was for the first sentence of the lead describes chess as a game which it is also. I see no logical reason of not having Chess in the sports category, or for it's removal. SunCreator (talk) 12:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem in discussing it; it's just that the user in question was making similar edits to Go, backgammon, and draughts without any attempt to discuss. They also changed the first sentence to "sport/game" which looked very awkward and I don't think would attract much support. Chess is a Featured Article, in theory no new changes need to be made to it. Altering the first sentence to change what it's described as seems wrong to me. Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the first line should be reverted to be games as sport/game is awkward as you point out and requires some sentence reconstruction to fit in the words in a neat way. With the other topic edits, they don't concern me only to add that I assume good faith, so there is no problem with such an edit, until found otherwise. SunCreator (talk) 12:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

(e.c.) First of all, the construct "sport/game" is very awkward and unpleasant to read. There's probably lots of evidence that can be presented in both directions whether to include it in the sports category or not. The online Merriam-Webster starts out "a game for 2 players each ..." Obviously the IOC includes it in its recognized list of sports (but don't know if chess tournaments practice (random?) drug-testing of its winners). The discussion above also doesn't seem to have a clear consensus, aside from agreeing on the word "game" for the lead. The reasonable sort of compromise already exists in that the word game in the lead, together with a statement that the IOC recognizes it as a sport. This doesn't, however, address whether it belongs in the sports category or not. I would tend to think not, but am just one person. As a brief remark, just because the article is a FA, this doesn't mean that it doesn't need any changes. The move to the "sport/game" construct in the lead is a definite change for the worse in my opinion. --Craw-daddy | T | 12:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I notice there is a sub-category in ] called ] which seems more appropriate.Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

That category was just created by the very person who is inserting the "sport/game" construct. It might be a reasonable compromise. Of course, in this case, if an article is in the "Mind sports" category then, according to the conventions on categories, it shouldn't also be placed in the "Sports" category as Mind sports is a subcategory of Sports. --Craw-daddy | T | 12:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Adding to Category:Mind sports seems a good idea as Mind sports is the wording being officially used, see World Mind Sports Games and China to host Bridge Games. SunCreator (talk) 13:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the specific issue of random drug testing in chess. Yes, that has been introduced also since 2002 with someone already reportably banned the reason for the testing being to comply with the IOC regulations. SunCreator (talk) 23:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Back to the original point, it's a messy issue because English usage on the subject is a mess. I've no idea how the whole issue will translate in other languages.

I'd leave it as "game" in the intro, because "game/sport" is messy and looks indecisive.

As a category, "game" is too wide - it would include e.g. solitaire and computer games (i.e. games that can only be played by use of a computer, I'm not talking about ChessMaster etc.).

The trouble is that "sport" is very hard to define. Competitive play would not exclude computer games, nor would organised competitive play. In fact I've seen StarCraft described as a national sport in S Korea. "Organised" would also get into the political morass of what constitutes a proper organising organisation. Having a large bureaucracy is not a useful guide - a lot of computer gaming clans appear to be better run than the IOC.

For what it's worth, I'd follow Kasparov in categorising chess as a sport - I remember him criticising Karpov in the 1990s for concentrating too much on the sporting aspects of chess at the expense of the creative. Philcha (talk) 01:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is that the Lead is fine as it is, chess is foremost a game. Any game, and probably a lot of human activities, can be practiced as it is were a sport. Actually, I would even think that sports are just a subcategory of games, somehow. SyG (talk) 19:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

So, someone please summarize, is chess actually considered a sport or not? WinterSpw (talk) 04:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it hinges on one thing: whether or not athletics is a necessary part of a sport. Some people define "sport" that way. If it must be athletic, then chess is not a sport; otherwise it is. Bubba73 (talk), 04:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

It is sport. Best players get huge sums of money for playing -> it cant be just a game. And also the International Olympic Committee says it is a sport. Lab-oratory (talk) 07:17, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Variants: Bughouse

why isn't bughouse mentioned under the Variants section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.122.45.230 (talk) 18:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Because there are severall thousands of chess variants and it is not possible to mention them all. But you can go and see the article on Bughouse chess that really has a very good quality. SyG (talk) 20:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not citing any sources but is bughouse by any chance the most popular variant? I've never even seen other variants played but I have played bughouse many times. If it is most popular, I believe it should be mentioned in the variants section. Lyctc (talk) 14:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It may be possible that bughouse is the most popular, but as you say we have no source for that. I guess some others like Suicide chess are popular as well. SyG (talk) 16:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

En Passant

There's a small type-O that should be fixed whereby the listed example claims that the black pawn originates on F5 when in reality the example should read that he originates on F7. (Small, but still incorrect) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BellyHo (talk • contribs) 04:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

It is worded a little awkwardly, but I think it is correct. It says if the black pawn on f5 has just moved two squares, etc. Bubba73 (talk), 04:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I see what you're saying, and my confusion was because of the awkward wording. I retract my initial comments of its "correctness." —Preceding unsigned comment added by BellyHo (talk • contribs) 16:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Finnish version is good

I just dont know how to mark it to interwiki links. Lab-oratory (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure Good articles have a special recognition in interwiki links. Only Featured articles do, so we have to wait until the finnish version reached FA-class. SyG (talk) 21:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh. We just have it in fi.wikipedia.org so I thought iw would exist here, too. Lab-oratory (talk) 08:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Help:Interlanguage links#Syntax explains how to create mark FA in interwiki links, but not GA. Also, several chess articles are GA in other languages (e.g. in russian or in arab) and their link in the English Misplaced Pages does not have a special markup. So probably the best is to enhance the Finnish article until it is a Featured article! :-) SyG (talk) 09:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

photo gallery

I agree with removing the photo gallery. The set was an ornamental set instead of a standard set and the board wasn't standard either. Bubba73 (talk), 17:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

If you have a look at VictorLee's contributions, he's essentially spamming various articles, including this one, with his own photographic work. Check the fair use rationale for his images to see what I mean. Caissa's DeathAngel (talk) 19:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Psychology section

Quoting from the current article:

"Alfred Binet and others showed that knowledge and verbal, rather than visuospatial, ability lies at the core of expertise."

This is precisely backwards; read the paper "working memory in chess" as linked to directly after the above sentence (ref. 67). The paper even concludes that there is a negative relationship between chess rating and verbal ability!

216.16.222.80 (talk) 23:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Some questions

Are we not allowed to edit a FA? Well I didn't know that. Seems all the edits I made were reverted suddenly. Anyway lets discuss the things I changed/queried. King fighting value of 4... who said this? It's not something I ever came across when I played. I think a reference is necessary here. Alexander McDonnell is born in Belfast and thus Irish, he is in the Category of Irish players. Calling him British is rather odd I think. Philidor was said to have discovered the importance of pawns/pawn strategy? - that sounds dubious to me. First to document perhaps, but discover, that's nonesense surely. Also Chess960, this should be better referenced by the more generic shuffle chess (although, of course it is not paticularly modern, and neither is Chess960) Lastly. King safety is often enhanced by castling. Well it can be enhanced, you can also castle on the wrong side and leave yourself , err is shafted an acceptable term? Well, that is why I would suggest my wording was better. Otherwise, lets pick out the percentage for how often it is enhanced. Oh and one I just spotted This random positioning makes it almost impossible to prepare the opening play in advance. well this is wrong isn't it? It makes it very difficult indeed, but not impossible.--ZincBelief (talk) 21:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

You are definitely allowed to edit a FA, but for significant changes like putting a "fact" template, it is probably best to discuss first on the Talk page. Regarding the specific issues you raised, here are some first comments:

King fighting value of 4: I had heard a value of 5 but I do not remember where; I agree with you it would need a reference.
Philidor was said to have discovered the importance of pawns/pawn strategy: This is a well-known fact, see his article François-André Danican Philidor

Having read the article I don't see any reference supporting the use of the word discovered.--ZincBelief (talk) 11:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

The Oxford Companion to Chess says L'analyze des echescs was "the first time the concept of the mobility of the pawn formation were laid down... he believed that ignorance of correct pawn play was the biggest weakness of his contemporaries." I'll add in a citation.Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Chess960: the appelation "Chess960" has an article while "Shuffle chess" is just a redirect to "Chess960", so it seems best to let it like that.

Well I hadn't heard of Chess960 until a few years ago, Shuffle Chess I had played whilst at school.--ZincBelief (talk) 11:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

SyG (talk) 10:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Insufficient material

Please, then, can we have precise information about this as that was what I was trying to establish; also, what is wrong with 'vertical'? Rothorpe (talk) 22:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

There is more information at draw (chess). What do you mean about "vertical"? Bubba73 (talk), 22:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks: but it seems my edit about insufficient material was right, so why was it removed? 'Vertical' referring to illegally castling with a promoted pawn, where the rook is on the eighth rank, hence the bit in the rules about 'must be on the same rank'. Rothorpe (talk) 23:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't undo them, but (1) the word "vertical" is unnecessary. (2) There are other combinations of material that are insufficient to checkmate. Bubba73 (talk), 01:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, K+B or K+N may be (at least theoretically) sufficient to mate. Depends on the defender's material. (Against a lone king, they're obviously useless, of course.) -- Jao (talk) 05:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and this article is long enough without going into all of the little details, which are covered at draw (chess), which is linked in the paragraph. Bubba73 (talk), 12:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

And now there is also a link to list of chess terms#Insufficient material. Bubba73 (talk), 12:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Rothorpe, I am the one who undid your edit, and I did so because the comment you added is true only in an endgame, while the section where you put it is about all types of mate. It is very possible to mate with a knight alone, in the middlegame or in the opening for example. In other words, your comment was basically right but was not well placed in a section talking about mate in general. Thanks in any case for the interest you put in chess! SyG (talk) 16:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Game Drawn on Time

FIDE's Laws of Chess, Article 6.9, requires the opponent to have sufficent material to delivery checkmate, the loss is not "automatic". I directed some tournaments and found this a fairly common situation, and as director I allowed no discussion in the matter.

I'm a complete Newbie here and will defer the actual editting to our more experienced contributors.

^^^^ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackpeter49 (talk • contribs) 18:26, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out, I have slightly changed the section "Time control" to mention that. SyG (talk) 18:31, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Avoidance of changing the Lead

I am reverting a recent change made by User:Shotcallerballerballer that changed the sentence:

"In 1997, a match between Garry Kasparov, then World Champion, and a computer proved for the first time that machines are able to beat even the strongest human players."

into the following sentence:

"In 1997, a match between Garry Kasparov, then World Champion, and a computer, proved for the first time that under the right conditions, machines are capable of defeating even the strongest human players."

I am reverting this change because I think the precision "under the right conditions" is too vague to be useful in the Lead, and lets the reader in a demanding situation ("what are these mysterious conditions ?"). It is jut obvious to me that if conditions are not "right", computers cannot win; for example if the computer has no electric power it will not win :-). Also, these right conditions are not explained later in the article, which makes it incorrect to place it in the Lead.

I am starting this discussion here in order to understand the opinion of User:Shotcallerballerballer and all other Wikipedians. SyG (talk) 18:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with SyG's reasoning. -- Philcha (talk) 18:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I also agree, with one caveat: if the body of the article were changed to reflect what these "right conditions" are, then I would have no issue with the new version by Shotcallerballer. -19:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

"Under the right conditions" seem to stress the conditions, which implies that Deep Blue had unreasonable time limits or other stretching of the rules, which to the best of my knowledge was not true. The game used reasonable time limits and it was a reasonable chess match. No need to stress the "Under the right conditions." Instead of increasing accuracy, the phrase would confuse the reader on why the editor wanted to take the time to clarify "Under the right conditions." I also agree with the above. It is fine in SyG's sentence. Liuyuan Chen 01:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It appears that someone changed the sentence from what SyG has above, by omitting the "under the right conditions" clause altogether. I think that deletion was appropriate, since including the clause at all suggests that there was something non-standard or inappropriate about the conditions. (Some contend that is true, i.e. that "Game Over: Man versus the Machine" movie, but that is POV.) I further modified the sentence to read as follows: "In 1997, Deep Blue became the first computer to beat the reigning World Champion in a match when it defeated Garry Kasparov by a score of 3.5-2.5." I think the name of the victorious computer deserves to be given: this was an extraordinary and historic achievement, after all. I also think specifying "3.5-2.5" is a good idea, since the lay reader might otherwise take "match" to mean simply one game. Krakatoa (talk) 08:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

The version I edited was by SyG, and read as follows before my edit: "In 1997, a match between Garry Kasparov, then World Champion, and a computer proved for the first time that machines are able to beat even the strongest human players." I think it is best to describe what happened and let the reader conclude what that "proves". Krakatoa (talk) 08:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Question here

Shouldnt the fact that chess originated from India be one of the first things mentioned in the article? I mean there is mention of how the current form came from somewhere else and that is miss leading. So I put the fact that it originiated from India, with a citation, at the top of the page. ARYAN818 (talk) 19:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I reverted it. The fact that the game has its roots in "similar, much older games of Indian and Persian origin" is already mentioned in the second sentence of the article, which is definitely prominent enough. -- Jao (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The game originiated in INdia. To a person that is not familiar with the history of chess, this article is kind of mis-leading to say the current form of the game emerged in Southern Europe during the second half of the 15th century after evolving from similar, much older games of Indian and Persian origin.....I mean that can mis-lead a user to either thinking it came from Southern Europe or it came from both India and Persia, which might be true, but it does not tell the user THAT CHESS ORIGINIATED FROM INDIA RIGHT? SO why not be fair and mention that it came from India FIRST, and then say the modern version came from Southern Europe? Wouldnt that be more fair? ARYAN818 (talk) 19:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Trying to pin-point what the issue is:

Are you afraid that a reader might think the game originated in Southern Europe, solely on the basis that Southern Europe is mentioned earlier in the article (albeit in the same sentence) than India and Persia? This, in my opinion, is highly unlikely. Any reader with any grasp of English will draw the correct chronological conclusions from "the current form of the game emerged in Southern Europe during the second half of the 15th century after evolving from similar, much older games of Indian and Persian origin". But of course, if turning it all around can be done in a good way, I wouldn't have anything against it. Simply adding a second clause about the origins of the game to the lead is not a good way, though. Now someone getting to "of Indian and Persian origin" will think "yeah, didn't they already say originating in India? And this is supposed to be a featured article?"

Is it not possible that someone might think "Oh the game started in Souther Europe?" I mean seroiusly is that not possible? So instead of issue's like that come up, why not just simply say CHESS STARTED IN INDIA first? I mean why is that so bad for you?.....Seconldy why would you start the article by saying how it originiated from Indian and Persian origin? I mean to a user who is not familiar with chess, that does not tell the user that CHESS STARTED IN INDIA. Again I dont undersatnd why you have to have it set up in a messy way. I mean instead of saying the modern version started in Europe, and originated from Indian and Persian origin, why not just say CHESS STARTED IN INDIA, AND THE MODERN VERSION CAME FROM EUROPE? It doesnt make sense. Your zig-zagging the article and not just being blunt. CHESS STARTED IN INDIA. Why not just say that? I cant believe this is even a debate?....I mean again.....CHESS STARTED IN INDIA.....And you want the article to start off by saying the modern version came from Euorpe, and originzted from Indian and Persian origin? No! CHESS STARTED IN INDIA. That's how you start it lol. Then after that you can mention how the modern version came from Europe. ARYAN818 (talk) 02:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you afraid that a reader might think that chess-like games were played in Persia before they were played in India? Now that is a real concern, since "of Indian and Persian origin" only weakly implies that the Indian game predated the Persian one. I don't really know how to phrase it better, but it can probably be done. I kind of agree that this kind of clarification might have a place in the lead, as many people will not read the history section, but will still be interested in the very basic facts about its origins.

Yes! That is a concern. Saying that the chess-like games were played in Persia before they were played in India, does not imply that the Indian game predated the Persian game, or that the game might have started in India. I mean you say you dont know how to phrase it better, well I will tell you. Just say, CHESS STARTED IN INDIA, AND THE MODERN VERSION CAME FROM SOUTHERN EUROPE. ARYAN818 (talk) 02:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Finally, please assume good faith (which this is hardly an example of). It's not like anyone is disputing the importance of the fact that the first chess-like game (well, first known at least) was played in India. The only reason I reverted your addition was that it made the lead repetitive, mentioning Indian origins twice. I have no hidden agenda of somehow hiding or diminishing these origins. -- Jao (talk) 21:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Well it doesnt have to mentioned twice. As long as it says Chess originated from India, then that is fine by me.ARYAN818 (talk) 02:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

← It's important to maintain the flow of this Featured Article and repetition does the article no favours. The game's Indian origins are not only mentioned in the lead, but also at the start of the 'History' section. Hence I reverted to previous version. Brittle heaven (talk) 21:14, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I dont say it has to be reptive. No you got me wrong. I am saying that it should be mentioned early that the game originated in India. Yes INdian origin's is mentioned in the lead. That is true. But it does not imply that the game ORIGINATED in India. And yes your right it does say the game started in India in the history section. But why does it not say that near the top of the article? I mean that is one of the basic thing's to mention right? And if you disagree with me that it should not be mentioned near the top of the ariticle, then why is it ok to mention that the modern version started in Southern Europe? I mean one of the most basic thing's you can mention is where it originated from. And it seem's that it might have originated in India. So I don't undersatnd why Souther Europe come's first, and then Indian and Persian origin's come after that. In either case, none of those two sentence's say that CHESS ORIGINATED IN INDIA. ARYAN818 (talk) 02:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's a moot point, but I would argue that the development of the game of 'Chess' in Europe (rather than it's roots in 'Chaturanga') should be the more prominent issue here. This is an article about Chess, not Chaturanga after all. Besides, the origins of the game are more extensively covered elsewhere. Brittle heaven (talk) 09:19, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Lot's of things in history dont have DIRECT relations to something earlier in history, but it is still mentioned becasue it is significant. I mean CHESS ORIGINATED FROM INDIA. Most experts agree with that. And your telling me that should not be mentioned early in the article? You want it to mis-lead people and say that it had earlier origin in Indian and Persian history? That doesnt tell the user it originated in India. ARYAN818 (talk) 20:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The current sentence is the following:

Sometimes called Western chess or international chess to distinguish it from its predecessors and other chess variants, the current form of the game emerged in Southern Europe during the second half of the 15th century after evolving from similar, much older games of Indian and Persian origin.

Here is a proposal to make it clear the origins are in India:

While it finds its origins in an older game from India, the current form of the game (sometimes called Western chess or international chess to distinguish from other chess variants) emerged in Southern Europe only during the 15th century.

Opinions ? SyG (talk) 16:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

That is fine by me. But for some oddball reason(s) they don't want to make it simple. I mean Chess oriingated from India. ANd this is a debate about weather that should mentioned early in the aritcle? ARYAN818 (talk) 20:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The "History" currently says, "The game reached Western Europe and Russia by at least three routes, the earliest being in the 9th century" - in other words, it does not commit itself to Indian or Persian origin. IIRC there's a historian of the Chinese variant who argues the the Chinese variant is the grand-daddy of all the rest. IMO a top-level article should avoid taking sides on this kind of issue and should leave it to a "History of ..." article. So I prefer the original, non-committal wording - or perhaps even "...emerged in Southern Europe during the second half of the 15th century after evolving from similar, much older games acquired from India and Persia." -- Philcha (talk) 16:33, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

There are people who dont believe we went to the Moon. So you go by facts and or sources. And this article says, that CHESS ORIGINATED FROM INDIA. So if your not sure weather or not it came from China, then your contradicting this article, because this article says it originated from India. My argument , is why is that mentioned so low in the aritlce? That should be mentioned higher in the aritcle. Why is this even a debate? I mean sometime's when a article start's, it might mention the origin of something. So why is that a problem here? ARYAN818 (talk) 20:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The "History" section makes it clear, however, that Persia was just a step while India was older. The Lead does not describe that, putting India and Persia at the same level. SyG (talk) 16:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I think I agree with you. The history section mentions Chess originated from India, but the lead does not describe that. It kind of put's India and Persia at the same level. ARYAN818 (talk) 20:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I hate to be hyper-critical, but the "History" section is not very clear about dates:

Chess originated in India, where its early form in the 6th century was chaturanga, which translates as "four divisions of the military" – infantry, cavalry, elephants, and chariots, represented respectively by pawn, knight, bishop, and rook. In Persia around 600 the name became shatranj and the rules were developed further.

Philcha (talk) 18:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

← Fair enough, so let me try it another way. I have a reliable source saying Chaturanga appeared in the 5th century in India, then was improved (no more dice and only 2 players), then moved to Persia where the first hints about Chatrang date back to around 550. SyG (talk) 18:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"Chaturanga appeared in the 5th century in India, then was improved (no more dice and only 2 players), then moved to Persia where the first hints about Chatrang date back to around 550." That's a lot of action in under 50 years! Can you pin down the Indian date any more precisely? -- Philcha (talk)

It may still have appeared in the beginning of the 5th century, which would give way for almost 150 years of change before it became known in Persia. But of course, the more specific dates the better. -- Jao (talk) 20:06, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Is this source referring to the Cox-Forbes theory? Because that was discredited long ago. HermanHiddema (talk) 20:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Chess originated in India. That should be at the top. THen after that you can work your way to Persia and Southern Europe if you like. ARYAN818 (talk) 20:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately my source is no more precise than that. It does not give a precise date for India and does not explicitely mention the Cox-Forbes theory. That is only a generalist book about chess, not really dwelving into the origins. Do you have other sources saying something about India before Persia ? SyG (talk) 21:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

For an overview of modern chess historians views on Chess origins, you can read the papers of several members of the Initiative Group Königstein at: http://www.mynetcologne.de/~nc-jostenge/ HermanHiddema (talk) 19:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is supposed to go by fact's, or the best known fact's. And this article has a source that says Chess started in India. This is not something I came up with, it was ALREADY on this article. And not only that, but it was already mentioned in the history of chess article, that chess started in India. So again, this is not something I came up with on my own. This is something that was ALREADY mentioned in this article. My issue is, why is it mentioned so low in the article? I mean why not mention it higher? If your article says CHess originated in India, why do you have to mention that the older version came from Indian and Persian origin? CHESS CAME FROM INDIA. And that is mentioned. All im saying is, put that higher in the article. What is the debate here? ARYAN818 (talk) 01:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Murray, H.J.R. (1913). A History of Chess. Benjamin Press (originally published by Oxford University Press). ISBN 0-936317-01-9.

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