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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by BigDaddy777 (talk | contribs) at 05:40, 29 September 2005 (→Resources). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: "Rove, Bush's top strategist, to speak here on Thursday". Helenair.com Independent Record. March 30, 2005.

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Misplaced Pages:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions:

• Archive #1 (through around July 15, 2005).
• Archive #2 (through around July 21, 2005).
• Archive #3 (through around Sept 16, 2005).
• Archive #4 (through around Sept 22, 2005).

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Screw this.

It's clear that none of the editors here is actually interested in working on the content of this article, given that you've all had a great deal of time to find passages that need changing and propose changes, but all you could figure out what to do is pollute the attempted useful section with meta talk and a huge passage that was already settled. Kate, this page should be protected in perpetuity, or at least untill the other editors on this page can stop talking about politics. Hipocrite - «Talk» 11:04, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Hip, I understand your frustration, but I'm not comfortable with your comment above, your section heading, nor your "corraling" of discussions into "new" and "old" sections, with broad generalizations about which passages have been "settled" without actually naming which passages you're referring to.

Further, you really can't mean it when you say, "It's clear that none of the editors here is actually interested in working on the content of this article." Please give this comment a second thought -- it is demoralizing to fellow editors. My work on this talk page has mostly been focused on content; I have tried to work on the Plame affair and poll people about moving it to another article and writing a summary. I've made progress. I have made actual changes to the article that are still there. I have even invited Wales to this page to clear up misunderstandings about partiality of content sources -- without trying to influence which side he should take. Pleae give me credit for this work before lumping me in with your "screw this" group. Don't get me wrong; it you're upset, go ahead and be upset. Just give us some credit as well.

I brought Jimmy's comments into your "new" section because they are very recent, and deal specifically with content. After he made his comments, we haven't had a lot of time as a team to talk about how his views may inform our choices of sources. I would appreciate it if you would please move them back where I placed them, please and thank you.

Please also note that an editor might easily miscontrue your moving his comments into an "old" section. It sort of looks like you get to decide what we're going to talk about, what we no longer can or should, and which of our discussions are valid in the first place. I want to talk about content. I don't want to spend time moving passages around or justifying my choice of discussions. paul klenk 12:24, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Then do so. If community consensus decides that we have to have political talk and metadiscussions throughout the talk page, then I'll listen to it. Untill then, I'm going to continue moving meta discussions and political discussions above the fold. Those of us who want to fix the article can go ahead and do so below the fold, while the POV warriors can talk about the role of the media in the blah blah blah blah blah above the fold. Hipocrite - «Talk» 12:37, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I am. It is clear that I am; you don't have to tell me to do so. I am among "those of us who want to fix," not the blah blah blah blah blah-ers, whoever you think they may be. paul klenk 12:45, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Good. Get to work. See format below. Hipocrite - «Talk» 12:47, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Hipocrite, if you're soliciting opinions from the community, here's mine: The talk page is supposed to be about the article, not about the subject of the article or related topics. Nevertheless, editors are human. Discussions wander sometimes. Live with it. I think that all this re-arranging of other people's comments is counterproductive. The tone of some of your comments, such as the one immediately above, is also likely to provoke overreactions from some people, further impeding the attempt to work out the wording of the article. I suggest that, instead, you resign yourself to the typical messiness of a Misplaced Pages talk page. JamesMLane 15:48, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok. Do what you want with this talk page. I'll participate in the discussions that are actually of real value. I support page unprotection given that there will be no forward progress made without the ability for POV warriors to war on the article itself. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Push Poll Part 3

Passage:

According to the campaign manager of John McCain's 2000 presidential bid, a push poll was conducted during the 2000 South Carolina primaries which asked potential voters "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". . Since McCain was campaigning with his adopted Bangladeshi daughter, an image quickly gathered around that statement. The authors of the book Bush's Brain (also made into a movie)allege that Rove was involved in this push poll due to his intimate role as campaign advisor to Bush. In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the campaign." No proof of his direct involvement has ever surfaced.

Discussion:

There's no reason not to include the quotes - first whoever said they had no idea, and then the person who said it came from on high, and whatever other quotes we can dredge up. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:16, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Given the context for the second quote, I no longer consider it relevent. Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:25, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, please rewrite "Since McCain was campaigning with his adopted Bangladeshi daughter, an image quickly gathered around that statement," - I suggest("McCain was campaigning with his adopted dark-skinned Bangladeshi daughter at the time. According to (source), the push poll duped some voters into believing... ") or source it. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Several problems with this passage: Writing: The line "image quickly gathered around that statement" is poorly written. Sequence: Instead of first quoting the low level Weaver, the first declarative statement should come from the campaign manager who speaking, with far more authority, says 'he doesn't know who did it.' Sourcing: Any reference to the hit piece 'Bush's Brain' should include this verbatim quote from the author in the movie "I have come to truly believe that the policies...of Karl Rove are dangerous to the Republic.' to establish that this book comes from that tiny disgruntled segment of society who are bitter to the point of irrationality at the fact that Karl Rove helped engineer two successful Presidential campaigns on the half of George W. Bush. Innuendo: This line is pure slime - "No proof of his direct involvement has ever surfaced." In other words, like the dead body submerged in the water, it's out there somewhere... it just hasn't surfaced yet. What a crock. Bottom line, the fact that even low level Weaver doesn't even mention Rove coupled with the fact that no proof of any connection has been established means this piece has no place in any legitimate encyclopedia entry on Karl Rove. Big Daddy (on the road thru tomorrow)

This section is for concrete changes to specific passages. Suggest specific changes to specific passages. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:52, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Uh, I think specifically calling for a rearranging of specific sources and specifically suggesting explicit sentences be added to specific passages would fall into the category of 'specific changes.' Big Daddy

No, what you did was put in a bunch of demands for other to rewrite the sentence and insisted on coniditional requirements. What you see above your comment is a suggestion of a specific change. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:10, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot - you also tried to talk about politics instead of about the article. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:12, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Just a friendly reminder. Cool it on the combativeness. I'm sure I'm way off base bere, but itseems like you have an axe to grind with me. Big Daddy 21:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

You are way off base. There is no combativeness - I continue to attempt to get you to adhere to the norms of the community you are participating in. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:41, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

In light of Jimmy Wale's comments, the only change that must be made is the elimination of this slanderous attack completely. And to suggest we would include the quote from Bush's Brain without qualifying it with a statement indicating how biased that source is, shows complete contempt for Jimmy Wale's edict. But it's sort of irrelevant because this bogus story, along with the one of Rove and Katrina etc simply have no place in this article. Big Daddy 16:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Please do not put comments in the proposed change section. Since we will not reach consensus on removing the entire paragraph, can you source someone reputable saying that the source is biased? Why don't you try proposing a change below the existing proposed change?Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:42, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I hope we can reach a consensus that this and any other unprovable allegation are eliminated from this (and every other article) on Wik. For example, if no legit source is even willing to say that Teddy Kennedy was at Chappaquiddick (sp?) then I would exclude that from his article too. Of course, there's the little matter of a police report etc :) But with so many of the charges regarding Karl Rove, there's NO proof. Just whispers. I don't think we need to form a consensus as to whether or not we allow this kind of noneselse. Simply follow Jimmy Wale's edict. We just have to submit to it. But, as a matter of good faith and against my better judgment, if you were to include ANYTHING from Bush's Brain (and I don't think we can) then you don't need a "reputable source saying that the source is biased" just the author's own hysterical words.... Big Daddy 17:19, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I will not consent to remove this paragraph from the article on the charge that it uses quotes from a movie. You can see my dispute as to your interpretation of Jimbo's comment elsewhere. Suffice it to say that it was not an edict, and even if it were, you have misinerpreted it. Given that, and paying specific attention to WP:NOR, please suggest a rewrite to the paragraph in the proposed change section below. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:26, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Proposed Change:

According to the campaign manager of John McCain's 2000 presidential bid, a push poll was conducted during the 2000 South Carolina primaries which asked potential voters "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". . McCain was campaigning with his adopted dark-skinned Bangladeshi daughter at the time. According to Richard H. Davis, McCain's 2000 campaign manager, this poll was designed to suggest that McCain's Bangladeshi born daughter was his own, illegitimate black child. The authors of the book Bush's Brain (also made into a movie)allege that Rove was involved in this push poll due to his intimate role as campaign advisor to Bush. In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the campaign." No proof of Rove's direct involvement has ever surfaced.

---

I Just Re-Watched Bush's Brain:

I went ahead and watched Bush's Brain again. And I paid careful attention to the section where some have claimed John Weaver said that it was his belief that the rumor of McCain having a black child was spread from "the top of the campaign."

But, that is simply not the case.

You see, the movie uses chopped up edits from a single sit down with Weaver interspersed throughout. Just prior to him making the statement in question, he was talking about a NUMBER of charges made against McCain. He was speaking NOT ONLY about the Black child rumor, but about Cindys' drug history, McCain's supposed mental illness and a host of other accusations he claims were peddled by McCain opponents. So, he not only does NOT mention Karl Rove it's IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW what specific charges he was implying 'came from the top.'

Let me repeat - Because of either sloppy or dishonest editing, IT CANNOT BE DISCERNED from the movie what decision this statement "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the campaign" was referring to.

Even more revealing is that Ryan (or whoever tried to use 'Bush's Brain' as a souce) 'forgot' to tell us about the rest of Weaver's statement. You see, Weaver backtracked after that quote and said something to the effect that "Even if they DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH the attacks, they still could have stopped them and did not." Therefore acknowledging himself that he just didn't know.

And that is PRECISELY what I've been trying to get through to everyone from the beginning.

So here we have a HIGHLY PARTIAL "movie" (it was marketed on DVD less than two months after its initial release on ONLY four screens!), using a former friend turned enemy of Karl Rove with an axe to grind as a source. Yet, this source has no CREDIBLE information from inside the Bush campaign other than his 'spidey sense', doesn't mention Rove in connection with the incident, and the film is so ambiguous/dishonest in it's editing, it CANNOT legitimately be used to support ANY connection between the McCain black child rumor and Karl Rove.

And there are editors in here DEFENDING it's inclusion as a source???

Remember the words of Jimmy Wale, the FOUNDER of Misplaced Pages (and not 'just another editor' as some have insultingly suggested)- Sources have to be handled with care, and citing extremely biased sources without qualification is a very bad thing.

That's why this piece HAS NO PLACE in this article. Unlock it now, so we can begin correcting these dishonest and inaccurate attacks. Big Daddy 08:06, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I've rewritten this piece for accuracy. It now says:

According to the campaign manager of John McCain's 2000 presidential bid, a telephone push poll was conducted during the 2000 South Carolina primaries which asked potential voters "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". ,,,,, Since McCain was campaigning with his adopted dark-skinned Bangladeshi daughter, some people assumed she was the rumored 'black child'. The authors of the book Bush's Brain, which begins with the author claiming that Karl Rove is a danger to the republic, (also made into a movie) imply that Rove was involved in this push poll due. McCain's campagin manager says the calls were made "anonymously" and that the McCain campaign has "no idea" who made them. Rove has denied any such involvement.

I also we eliminated all but the Boston.com source. I did so because the passage starts out 'According to McCain's campaign manager' the the Globe article definitively supports that. Finally, note that in accordance with Jimmy Wale's edict, I qualified the dubious source Bush's Brain. I know some of you don't like what he had to say and some incredulously have implied that your interpretations have equal value with his, but he is the founder and thus we have to comport with his sensibilities to wit: Neutral point of view with very careful use of biased sources if at all.Big Daddy 01:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Here are the sources I excised. If anyone thinks they should be re-inserted because they serve as legitimate source material for this particular incident, rather than merely a recitation of hearsay culled from a smorgasbord of left wing venues, please explain.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1295/is_12_67/ai_111736424 http://www.sourcewatch.org/wiki.phtml?title=Push_poll http://www.dailycal.org/particle.php?id=16653 http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0509/S00138.htm http://baltimorechronicle.com/080504EricSmith.html

I for one would like someone to explain to us why an editorial in a left wing newspaper endorsing John Kerry or a book review of Al Franken's lastest (I'm not making this up!) are used as supporting evidence. Big Daddy 00:46, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I've had to put this in a second time. Someone reverted it without comment in here. That's not right, is it? Ps Per a wise person's suggestion, I'm working on an entire rewrite of this article at a mirror. It seems clear to me that the Karl Rove article, very much like the city of New Orleans, is probably best rebuilt from the ground up. Big Daddy 15:48, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

If an individual or single group is making unsubstantiated allegations against a person, that may not be encyclopedic, but the sheer number of almost identical allegations from people throughout Rove's life who had no knowledge of each other until after the fact is significant. --Zephram Stark 02:57, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Zephram - I tend to agree with your conclusion but have to question your premise. From my research, the only common thread that binds at least the really paranoid Rove-haters is that they supported a losing candidate beaten by the Rove-backed candidate. I could prove that to you but don't have to since Bush's Brain (hardly a Valentine to Karl Rove), makes the point for me. From Max Clelland's supporters, to Ann Richards' to that guy that got caught bugging Rove's office, they are the ones who start the whispering campaigns against. And I wonder if you care to back up this statement "but the sheer number of almost identical allegations from people throughout Rove's life who had no knowledge of each other until after the fact" with specific examples of people making idential allegations without having any prior knowledge. Thanks. Big Daddy 05:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I corrected this passage again. It was slightly improved but still somewhat problematic. I cleaned up some of the grammar and deleted this line: " In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the campaign."

I deleted this because I have seen Bush's brain and it is not true that Weaver made this claim specifically about the push poll. The sloppy (dishonest?) editing in the movie makes it impossible to know. I also qualified Bush's Brain with the author's comments about Karl Rove so readers will know how HIGHLY partial this source is. This addition is made in direct response to Jimmy Wales edict, that if we use impartial sources (and I don't think we should even be using Bush's Brain) that we qualify them. To remove that qualification, which is a direct quote from the author, is to disrespect this edict. So, whoever's doing it (Paul, can you find out?) please quit disrespecting Misplaced Pages founder Jimmy Wales. Thank you. Big Daddy 05:24, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

It seems like someone reverted my effort for the third timewithout so much as commenting in here. I remember there was a user who got caught by Paul Klenk reverting something in here like 5 times or someting. This is a similar type phenomena. No comments, just page reversion. Can anyone figure out who is doing this? Thanks. Ps I will be correcting this piece until it's comports with Misplaced Pages standards. Big Daddy 07:04, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Here's the correction: According to Richard H. Davis, the campaign manager of John McCain's 2000 presidential bid, a telephone push poll was conducted during the 2000 South Carolina primaries which asked potential voters "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". . McCain was campaigning with his adopted dark-skinned Bangladeshi daughter at the time. This poll, according to the McCain campaign, was designed to suggest that McCain's adopted daughter was his own, illegitimate black child. Davis wrote in a 2004 editorial that the calls were made by "anonymous opponents", that he "never did find out who perpetrated these smears", and that the McCain campaign "had no idea who made the phone calls." The authors of the book Bush's Brain (also made into a movie which begins with the author claiming the Karl Rove is a "danger to the republic") allege that Rove was involved in this push poll due to his role as campaign advisor to Bush. Rove has denied any such involvement.

KEY POINTS.

1)Per Jimmy Wales directive, the HIGHLY biased source Bush's Brain is qualified.

2)The quote suggesting that in Bush's Brain, Rove-enemy John Weaver specifically and explicitly said that the 'black child incident' came from the top of the Bush campaign is not accurate and thus was removed.

3) Some of the redundant and awkward language was removed.

As I've indicated numerous times, this is merely a temporary stopgap. Since the strongest evidence those who want to link Rove with the push poll to date is the Weaver quote and since this has now been debunked, there's really no legitimate reason to keep anything related to this incident in the Karl Rove article, except to perhaps distort his record.Big Daddy 22:07, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

It was reverted again. I'm careful not to throw around the expression 'page vandalism', but if someone keeps reverting a section written specifically to comport with wikipedia regulations, and does so without expressing their reasoning in the talk page, isn't that kind of an appropros accusation? Perhaps someone more knowledgable in Wik standards can shed some light here. Big Daddy 22:15, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Fax Interception

Passage:

Discussion:

In September of 2005 a fax intended for Karl Rove was intercepted inwhich Lamar Smith states "Immigration needs to be considered in the context of: (1). Media Bias, (2). Animosity toward the president and (3) the feelings of the Republican base," Smith is a member of the Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security, and Claims as well as the Subcommittee on Economic Security, Infrastructure Protection, and Cybersecurity. No issues regarding the legislative jurisdiction of these committees are mentioned. Smith also suggests that "Liberals can easily and accurately be painted as opposing enforcement." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.241.245.49 (talk • contribs) 19:28, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

This is a premature addition. Wait for story to play out, and if important or relevent, add. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:47, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Come to think of it this fax could be a fake. I also suspect Rove may have ordered that it be mistakenly faxed to a Democrat. I agree lets see where this story goes. signed CD

doesn't seem particularly interesting even if true ... what am i missing? Derex 00:32, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Resolution: Consensus has been reached that no change in the article is required at this time. Hipocrite - «Talk» 12:50, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

If you're speaking of the entire article, no one asked me. I say MUCHO changes are necessary in the Karl Rove article. Big Daddy 16:20, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Daddy, I think what is meant is consensus with respect to this fax issue only, not the entire article. To focus discussion, Hip has sectioned this fax topic into a space so we can get consensus on small passages, one at a time, instead of broadly disputing the whole article. This is a good method because it clears disputed topics off the laundry list one at a time. Hip, I hope I'm stating this correctly. paul klenk 16:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Impartiality of Sources

A major dispute about the content of the Karl Rove article is the partiality or impartiality of its sources. A lengthy debate took place on this, and has been corraled into the above section labeled "old discussions." The discussion is not settled, but to keep this page short, I have left it above; you can read there or in future archives.

Because Jimbo Wales' name came up in the discussion, along with disputes about what he said, I mentioned it to him in IRC chat, giving him the name of this page. JImmy invited me to send him a link to the page, but he immediately visited this page and left the remarks below, making it unnecessary for me to contact him.

Jimmy's humility about his views notwithstanding, I think they provide an excellent starting point for future discussions, a sort of "clean slate," as Karl Rove editors try to come to a consensus about what sources are impartial, and which are not:

I don't know anything about CNN in this context, but there was a Reuters article which misquoted me badly, and another Reuters article which was pretty good. My opinions about this matter are not particularly complicated: sources have to be handled with care, and citing extremely biased sources without qualification is a very bad thing. (I should not that in order to maintain my own impartiality in this little discussion, I've chosen not to even look at what sources are being disputed here.) I will give an example that might be pertinent: citing Indymedia (or similar) for anything factual having to do with Karl Rove would be quite a bad idea for the twin reasons that Indymedia is not a reliable news source and they would tend to have a strong bias against Rove. Citing a reputable news source like the Guardian would be fine, even though they would also tend to have a strong bias against Rove, because while the Guardian has a certain 'spin', it is also a reliable source for basic facts. If there actually is a legitimate controversy about the facts, it should be easy enough to find multiple reputable sources on different sides of the issue.

As I say, though, I don't think my views are particularly complicated, nor are they particularly unique or interesting. This is just ordinary good writing practice.--Jimbo Wales 11:20, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Jimmy, for visiting to make your views known. paul klenk 11:57, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Indeed - thanks Jimmy! Those looking for more on this particular content issue go here .

Wow! Big Daddy has been vindicated by none other than Misplaced Pages founderJimmy Wales. I mean, if Indymedia, as he put it, is NOT a reliable source, then certainly Bush's Brain which BEGINS with a quote from the author "I have truly come to believe that the policies...of Karl Rove is a threat to our republic" is not either.

Unless, of course, one's irrational hatred of Karl Rove procludes them from acknowldging that. If that happens to be the case (for any contributing edior) then, as a friendly suggestion, I'd strongly suggest recusing yourself from this and every other article where dispassionate objectivity is a problem.

Ps I will also point out that Mr. Wales said "sources have to be handled with care, and citing extremely biased sources without qualification is a very bad thing." Therefore the litany of irrelevant and lopsided 'sources' defending the Rove 'McCain push poll' incident (al franken book reviews, John Kerry for President editorials etc) has officially been rejected. In the past, not only was my counsel that we handle sources with care rejected, but I believe my efforts to make sure we at least 'qualify' these biaseds sources with caveats was also reversed. Those days, thanks to this clarifiying edict from Jimmy Wales, are over. But, I want to urge those on the other side not to lose hope. You can always go to democratic undergound or daily kos and spew your anti-Rove paranoid hatred.

Just not Misplaced Pages. Big Daddy (coming home today)

To be clear, again, I welcome an objective explanation of what "Bush's Brain" is. Right now, it's a book made into a movie. If you can provide a reputable impeachment of the source (Is the quote in the movie? Does the quotee dispute it?) then we can include that. As a final note, you must stop personally attacking other editors. NOW. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:51, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Hip, I will try to find info about Bush's Brain. If there's something specific you'd like to know about it, I can try to find that out. However, your comment seems to indicate you don't know what Bush's Brain is, except that it is a book and movie; is that what you're saying? Question: Which path should we take: a] Letting anything in, unless a consensus can be established that it is not impartial, or b] Not allowing anything in, unless a consensus is established that it is impartial?

Last, I agree that Daddy should stop attacking editors, and also stop ranting about liberals; please let me know the next time he does so, and I will join you in asking him to stop, and back you up in resolving the attack, getting an apology, or reporting it to an admin. paul klenk 15:15, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I have absolutly NO IDEA what Bush's Brain is. What I do know is what's in the article -

The authors of the book Bush's Brain (also made into a movie)allege that Rove was involved in this push poll due to his intimate role as campaign advisor to Bush. In the movie, John Weaver, political director for McCain's 2000 campaign bid, says "I believe I know where that decision was made; it was at the top of the campaign." No proof of Rove's direct involvement has ever surfaced.

The authors DO alledge such. The statement IS in the movie. The book/move is not used as a source for the statement "Rove is a psycopath." It's not used to determine his birtdate. It's used as the source for the statement about what it's authors believe, and what John Weaver said. For these purposes, it is reliable. The two key lines that you are both appear to have missed are "citing Indymedia (or similar) for anything factual...Indymedia is not a reliable news source." Unreliable news sources should not be cited for anything factual. On an additional note, the no proof line needs sourcing. It is currently orig. research. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:35, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Hippocrite, you're wrong on all counts. Bush's Brain, which I've seen (as much as I could before realizing it was just a Rove hit piece) starts with the editor making hysterically paranoid comments about Karl Rove. That puts it in the category of not acceptable sources. You can try and split hairs oon Jimmy Wale's comments all you want, it is not Misplaced Pages-acceptable. And Bush's Brain is the only source you have that even comes close to alleging anything and they don't mention Karl Rov personally. Why anyone would fight me on this is curious. There is no need of a consensus anymore. We have the words of the founder, unless you think you have more authority than him, you're just going to have to submit to his ruling. Bush's Brain does not even come close to being an acceptable source for this allegation. And the allegation does not mention Karl Rove. Now, someone please unlock this article so I can begin eliminating useless smear passages like this (and a host of others) in accordance with founder Wales clear and ambiguous edict. Big Daddy 16:14, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not believe that you carefully read over what I said. Please do so. Bush's Brain, in this case, is used as an accuser, not as a source. There is always need for consensus. As has been said before, unless Jimbo puts his developer hat on (he did not do so here), he is nothing more than another editor. This is all irrelevent, however, as he did not address using unreliable news sources not as fact sources, but as allegation sources. I am happy to put this issue up for RFC - why don't you and I brainstorm what the exact wording you would like to submit is? Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:34, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Hippocrite, that's a good idea. But, why don't we first get clarification on that point. Since you are saying he meant we must exclude unreliable sources only for facts and but we CAN use them for allegations (a position I find untenable) then let's find out exactly what he meant. After all, if I'm right, it will eliminate Bush's Brain that's for sure. And then we can eliminate all the other nefarious sources too. I think it will make our jobs much easier. Big Daddy 17:23, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

As long as you do not intend to use my agreement to your summary of my comments as a gotchya, then I believe you have accurately summarized my comments. The statement "According to Unreliable Source, X is Y. Other Source, on the other hand, says X is Z" is perfectly valid. "In Unreliable Source, Person said X is Y" is also valid, as long as the person actually said such a thing. I will repeat, of course, once more that Jimbo is nothing more than another editor, unless he specifically says he's being more than another editor. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:33, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Hip wrote: "According to Unreliable Source, X is Y. Other Source, on the other hand, says X is Z" is perfectly valid."

Setting aside my disagreement with you on the validity of this line of reasoning, it's moot anyway. If you read above, you'll find I re-watched Bush's Brain. And, to use your phraseology, the unreliable source DID NOT say X is Y to begin with. Big Daddy 08:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Despite BD's claim, there is always a need for concensus. Please read over Wales's comments, they do in fact reflect Misplaced Pages policy (no surprise). Clearly, extremely partisan sites should generally be ignored because there is a high correlation of unreliability to such extremist sources of information. But partisanship is not the main concern. Reliability, verifiability, and notability are expressly given in Misplaced Pages policy. Read Wales's comment: "Citing a reputable news source like the Guardian would be fine, even though they would also tend to have a strong bias against Rove, because while the Guardian has a certain 'spin', it is also a reliable source for basic facts." In this example given by Wales, the reliability of the source trumps its partisanship, thus it is reliability over partisanship. Thus, we are not going to dismiss sources simply because of their partisanship. --kizzle 22:34, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense. Spin as you might, when Jimmy Wales says the sky is blue and the grass is green, it does NOT mean the sky is green and the grass is blue. Jimmy's Bottom line: You have to be very careful with sources no more impartial than the Guardian (which is just a little to the left of the NY Times) therefore you absolutely can't use hit pieces like Bush's Brain. (Not that you could anyway. See above.) Big Daddy 08:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Another interesting development

Not about the McCain rumor it's not. Please try and organize your Rove slams in a more cohesive fashion. Thanks! Big Daddy 08:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Your help requested IN RE Plame

I am trying to identify the various and distinct components of the complex Plame affair. Many of these components seem to hinge on each other, and lead to greater underlying controversies, all the way up to Bush's stated reasons for going to war in Iraq.

Below, broken into bullet points, are my best efforts to identify them. Would you please me help by adding any missing components, commenting, pointing out where I am wrong, etc.?

My goal is to use these components to write a dense and thoughtful summary of this affair. Remember, these points are not the summary itself -- they are simply raw, hard "bits." My question is, are there other bits?

• It is alleged that Karl Rove illegally leaked the name of a C.I.A. operative, which resulted in breaking the identity of her cover company, said to employ other C.I.A. operatives.
• Rove's alleged motive for the leak: to discredit Wilson's Yellowcake report.
• Wilson's motive for the yellowcake report is alleged to be to discredit it as one of Bush's stated reasons for going to war in Iraq.
• Rove's alleged leak spread throughout the media, creating another set of controversies between reporters, their employers, and their sources.
• The allegations resulted in a current DOJ investigating whether Rove broke the law.
• The affair has been fueled with a denial by Rove and the White House, followed by an apparent "backing-off" of that denial by the White House.
• The media have moved from the role of observer to the role of a player in this affair:

1. The jailing of Judith Miller and Nokak's alleged deal with the prosecutor;
2. The media files a "friend of the court" brief.

paul klenk 00:24, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

1. At this point, 'alleged leak' is incorrect - It is now a confirmed fact that Rove leaked Plame's name to Cooper, confirmed by Cooper and the Time Magazine internal emails. Whether that was a crime or not is still one of the points under investigation.
2. imho, the language you use, 'the media moving, etc.' is not accurate - while reporters are involved in the scandal, and an amicus brief filed by a number of very prominent media networks, I'd avoid such easily misinterpreted phrases. And it is important to bear in mind that it was filed before the release of the Time emails and internal notes confirming Cooper's testimony/public statement that Rove told him of Plame's identity. I'll have research look into the changes in the positioning of the group since Time's information became public.

Thanks! -- RyanFreisling @ 00:39, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

It most certainly is not a confirmed factalthough I personally think it's likely to be verified down the road. But my, personal opinions nor those of any other editors should be the high watermark for truth. It has been only affirmed by ONE person with no secondary corroboration. That one person is a stand up comic and reporter who is married to a hard core Clintonista. We need MUCH more than that. Like I said, we'll probably get confirmation but this ridiculous rush to judgement has no business in this article. Be patient out there.

Rove has been viewed with intense personal dislike for his policies and character by some on the far left as well as supporters of candidates defeated by Rove's clients. Several unsubstantiated accusations were leveled by liberal web sites and other highly partisan sources. Among these were rumors of sabatoging Senator John McCain's campaign with unsavory rumors about an alleged illegitimate black child and bugging his own office during a local Texas Congressional race. Some journalists even fomented conspiracy theories about Rove's involvement with Osama Bin Laden and the Rathergate false documents scandal. The deadly Hurricane Katrina tragedy which befell Mississippi and Lousisiana in 2005 fomented further far left hostility to the Bush administration and it's surrogate Karl Rove.Big Daddy 04:02, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists