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Talk:Overseas expansion of the United States

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For talk occuring February 2004 and earlier, see Talk:History of United States Imperialism/Archive I.


"Imperialism" - POV

The title of this article is inherently POV. Perhaps a name change is in order? Or it can be put under a single article, "US imperialism", which could debate the term, not present it as a POV history.

Delete?

That is not "fact"-- it is POV. The title of this article is fundamentally POV, since the debate would be WHETHER the US was or was not imperial. This article should be merged in Imperialism or deleted.

This article should separate imperialism that is accepted by mainstream historians (eg. Philipines, Hawaii) vs. speculation. As it stands, it mixes fact with ridiculous diatribe. For example, there is no legitimate reason a 7 paragraph lesson on the Boxer rebellion belongs here--however interesting US diplomacy regarding it may seem. I dare say it is possibly longer than the boxer rebellion section on China's page!


Discussions

The US was imperialist, all that is arguable is that it still is. It is a fact that it was imperialist however. It was in a situation similar to Russia where its empire was on its borders not in far off lands. I didn't write this too well though hopefully you can understand what I mean and impliment it beter. --Josquius 16:52, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

: That is POV. Misplaced Pages is NPOV. You must post what others say (magazine articles, academic papers etc) and not your opinion. Get it?????


CIA support for the overthrow of Allende in Chile is confirmed. Here is a link to the primary source documents.

Uh, no it doesn't. All this confirms is that the US was trying to prevent Allende from coming to power, which is not disputed. Show me the sources where it shows CIA agents giving instructions to the Chilean military on how and when to make the coup.

Um, excuse me but you can still support a coup without giving specific step by step instructions. These documents quite clearly show the CIA had a hand in the overthrow of Allende.--GD 18:08, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
You won't get any, because of course no such evidence exists. Nevertheless, there are still several places on Misplaced Pages where partisans have falsely asserted that it has been proven that the US overthrew Allende. -- VV 06:58, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As Im sure the CIA have never tried anything simliar to it. Let me just call my friend at the Agency and Im sure how glad he would be to let me have a copy of the "How to make a Coup D´Etat in 10 steps and letting the whole world know about it".LtDoc 17:11, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Obviously if a coup is successful there is likely to be very little evidence of who organised it (although in some instances declassified documents have revealed CIA & MI6 involvement in foreign military coups), however it is possible to look at the attitude of the US to a foreign government before a coup & that after it to the new government & assistance given to the coup imposed government not given overthrown leaders & also at what policies are adopted/dropped by the new gov & how these fit USA interests & previously expressed desires. This doesn't constitute proof of involvement in a coup but does, at least, indicate the attitudes of the USA (or whichever country you're dealing with) & provide reasonable grounds for suspecting involvement. This would need to be worded carefully but I don't see any problem with noting that these suspicions exist, provided thay are properly attributed (eg so & so argues). I don't know much about the Chile situation but there certainly seems to be enough suspicion of USA involvement to warrant mentioning it specifically, provided reasons for that suspicion are given. AllanHainey 07:46, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Since this page was ginormous, I moved most of it into an archive. I hope to be expanding several sections of the page soon (don't worry, no more on Indian Wars), so I'm sure that we're going to end up needing some space on the talkpage =). --Alex S 05:49, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I am a professional editor and technical writer in the oil and gas industry and my comments are focused solely in the role of editor.

There is much in this article that is verifiable fact. However, much of this article is stated in POV terminology and should be restated in NPOV term. Any sentence or phrase that includes “some believe…”, “some would argue…”, or “some claim…” is de facto POV and weakens the entire article. These need to be edited such that they state verifiable fact or cite a direct reference to the source of the opinion quoted (as is done for opinions cited to Mark Twain). If there is no citable, verifiable source, then the sentences or phrases are, by definition, POV comments and should be deleted. This is specifically discussed in the Misplaced Pages policy titled “Avoid weasel words”.

I also recommend re-phrasing, deleting, or citing sources for views ascribed to historical figures. An example of this can be found in the section on the Louisiana Purchase, in the second paragraph, where the phrase “…Jefferson felt that…” appears. Without a citation as to a source for this (for example, a reference to a published work containing writings by Jefferson where he states why he did something), this is speculation and does not seem to meet Misplaced Pages’s verifiability policy.

Thank you for your time. --PW July 8, 2005

New long list

  • This new long list of alleged imperialism really stretches the meaning of the word. Many of these could simply be "foreign policy" or foreign conflicts with no credible tie to "imperialism". At the very least it should be trimmed. And if it stays, I'm definitely removing the prejudicial rhetoric many entries include. -- VV 21:22, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I agree. For instance, the section on colonialism in China and the Boxers is as long as it is on the page for China! And yet the US involvment here was peripheral. It seems like the agenda for this page is to extend US "involvement" to as much as possible to implicate the US. Why are similar pages for History of Russian Imperialism or History of Swedish Imperialism non-existent or sparse at best? Germany had numerous proper colonies around the globe, yet the page is a simple list. Double-standards are obvious, but more importantly one expects an encyclopedia to have proportional information. An encyclopedia that had 12 pages on "Cats" and a single paragragh for "Dogs" would be a joke. Unfortunately the partisan political agendas of many participants put politics ahead of the user experience.


  • I don't accept this. The whole point about this project is that we should aim for detail, and this is one of the most comprehensive lists around. Furthermore it states at the top: "The following is a list of incidents involving the United States which some view as having hidden or overt imperialist motivations" - that is, it points out from the start that only some regard them to be imperialist acts. Moreover, each coup says "alleged", even in cases where it's pretty much generally accepted or proven. Neither do I think it stretches the meaning of the word imperialism - it's a list of actions where the United States is purported to have meddled in the internal affairs of other nations to further its own interests. To simply suggest that the overthrow of governments and their replacement with regimes more pliant to US interests isn't imperialist and indeed is simply "foreign policy" does not seem reasonable to me. And what prejudicial rhetoric are you referring to? Jonesy 22:02, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • I think VW makes a valid point. I mean, I was all for the shorter list, of the main, key allegations of third-world meddling, but now the list includes every single possible event of the last 50 years in which American intelligence may have even been slighty present. Every time there is a regime change in some corner of the world that the current occupant of the white house finds preferable it doesn't nessisarily follow that this was the result of some grand imperial scheme. As well, vague terms like "supports" and "backs" are hardly indicators of imperialism. America "backs" the current government of Canada, and would probably defend Canada if attacked. Does that mean Canada is just some imperial puppet state?
See, this article becoming exactly what I knew it was going to be. The term "imperialism" is no longer being used in any sort of factual context, but rather as a "catch all" term to describe any foreign activities (real or imagined) of Republican governments that certain members of the political left do not care for. user:J.J.
  • I would agree with the above. I think there is a valid place somewhere for the list in Misplaced Pages, but in general large lists in the middle of an article are bad formatting. (I'm also certain Italy and Greece wouldn't delight at being lumped into the Third World) - SimonP 02:47, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • I do find it interesting that, except for Vietnam, every single intervention on the list was the work of a Republican president. That is hardly NPOV. It overlooks, to cite one obvious example, the Bay of Pigs invation under Kennedy; or the various bombings of Iraq under Clinton. I think it is impossible to keep a list of this nature short, because every single instance of US foreign intervention can be described "by some" as imperialist. So I think the short list should be removed from this page, and the link to all foreign interventions kept to replace it. Fishal 03:19, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

For refrence here is a copy of the deleted list:

The Third World

The following is a list of incidents involving the United States which some suspect as having hidden or overt imperialist motivations:

"Imperialism is a value-neutral term"

I'm restoring some of my past comments on this page, seeing how some of the same confusions keep popping up. 172 07:05, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't know how this pertains to undoing J.J.'s trimming of the list in the article back to what it was three days ago. The shorter list was good enough Feb 9, why not now? And what about the several other objections? You're even calling Italy third-world again. -- VV 07:16, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Just a correction. I haven't added any content to this article, so I'm not the one making that error. Anyway, this page is going to be a disaster area unless you all agree on a definition for imperialism and accept the usage of the term in a value-neutral context. You can remove the list if you'd like, but hopefully your or J.J. can do a better job of explaining why this list doesn't belong in this article before removing it again. 172 20:04, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Ugh. More back and forward normative debates. More moral judgments and catch-phrase throwing. This might as well be Hannity and Colmes on Fox News. While AlexS has been doing some serious work, this article isn't going to work out on Wiki. It's just going to become more of a breeding ground for partisan trolling and posturing. On one hand, you'll have a forum for Anti-Americanism, and, on the other, you'll have to deal with J.J.'s personal essays and rationalizations. The only way to create an atmosphere conductive to some real historical writing on the subject is to redirect it to a new article on the diplomatic and military history of the United States. If anyone wants to do so, I can recommend scores of sources with ISBN numbers. I can also provide links to articles online if users want to get the new article done fairly quickly. 172 01:53, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I'm not "rationalizing" I'm just trying to present the other side, which is lacking. I mean, if this page can openly present the "Marxist view" of how my country is an "imperial fiefdom" of America, than surely my passage about American distain for the term deserves a place as well. user:J.J.
Yes, you are. "Imperialism" is a standard social science term, albeit one defined in a variety of ways depending on the context, and a wealth of literature is available on the subject. It can also be used in a values-neutral context, and it will be used in a values-neutral context in this article. There is no place here for Marxist ploemics (which you are confusing with scholarship that adopts some Marxian analyses and concepts), nor your personal commentaries.
This is not a forum for your creative writing. No one cares how you react to this word personally. When you start talking about what kinds of images of which this word reminds you, everyone's bullshit detector should be going off. I doubt you'd be able to get away with this with your professors. 172 19:38, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Readers unfamiliar with sociology, political economy, and international relations easily confuse common technical terms with context-specific, values-neutral meanings - like "imperialism" - with the more popular usage of these terms in the slogans and ploemics of activists. The same goes for "nationalism," another term used - and abused - in popular discourse.
There is no need for a neutrality dispute. There is a need for users to stay on topic. "Imperialism" is common technical term in the social sciences with context-specific, values-neutral meanings. J.J just needs to look up what "imperialism" means in the first place and how it is used in the social sciences and history. This doesn't mean finding the first op-ed piece that comes up on Google or Yahoo. This means that he needs to go to his local library or university library and consult encyclopedias, social science sourcebooks, and textbooks. It would behoove him to do this, rather than rambling on about he personally "feels" about the term. 172 00:34, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)
How is it value neutral? If the meaning is colonialism, then use the word colonialism, which has a concrete technical use. If the meaning is hegemony, regional dominance, use hegemony. If the meaning is globalization , use that word. Using a fuzzy word like imperialism, which technically should be connected to a formal empire, to mean any involvement with a world by a large nation is imprecise and obviously political, coming from its wide use in communist spheres (see so-called Anti-Imperialism).

The title is fine (not my choice for an article entry, though), but I understand why some users are suspicious. When familiar only with the popular usage of "imperialism," general readers and students often use this term without knowing what it means. They assume that it is a pejorative term.

However, in diplomatic and military history, "imperialism" is a standard, value-neutral term. It merely refers to influence by nations or peoples over weaker nations or peoples. Dating from antiquity, imperialism has taken many forms. Thus, general readers often conflate imperialism and colonialism, which is properly used in a more restrictive sense.

Colonialism entails formal political control involving territorial annexation. Imperialism can be exercised formally or informally, directly or indirectly, politically or economically. One can say that colonialism is a form of imperialism, but not vice versa.

Having observed so many ridiculous, protracted edit wars stemming from the failure to understand standard, encyclopedic definitions, I would not have created this article. Given the likelihood of conflicts and misunderstanding on Wiki, a broader focus on the Military and diplomatic history of the United States, IMHO, would have worked out better. But you already have too much work here to change the title. Without a substantial rewrite, no other title is appropriate. While the title is going to raise eyebrows occasionally, it is not a violation of NPOV policies so long as the article stays on focus. 172 11:37, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I haven't added any content to this article (other than removing some irrelevant tangents). Nor was this my choice for an article. If users don't know the definition of the term, you can edit the article and add it to the intro. A word may be widely confused, but it's fine so long as this article uses properly. 172 03:08, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Umm...If you are using a term that is likely to be misunderstood by a large segment of the reading population, it is your responsibility to make its meaning clear. Misplaced Pages is not a specialized social-sciences encyclopedia. In case you haven't looked, the current contents of the Imperialism article (which this article rightly links to) begins with:

Imperialism is the acquisition and maintenance of empires, through direct territorial control or through indirect methods of exerting control on the politics and/or economy of other countries. The term is used by some to describe the policy of a country in maintaining colonies and dominance over distant lands, regardless of whether the country calls itself an empire.
Imperialists normally hold the belief that the acquisition and maintenance of empires is a positive good, combined with an assumption of cultural or other such superiority inherent to the imperial power. Subjects of imperial and post-imperial governments and those sympathetic to them have often considered imperialism to be an exploitive evil, a view often shared by factions of the citizens of the imperialistic state.

That being said, my major issue with this article is the use of "some" and "others" (as in, "Some argue that this means by which the United States expanded and asserted its authority were classic examples of imperialism; others disagree.") Me and my cat could argue something, and that would be "some". You need verifiable sources of information. Of course, this is an issue with many articles, but it's particularly important to correct it here if there is any hope of this article being anything worthwhile. -Rholton 00:42, 10 May 2004 (UTC)


Even though it might be so that some (many?) people are misinformed with regard to the exact meaning(s) of 'imperialism', the word does best describe the totality of many US foreign policies in especially the late 19th century. Above-mentioned examples such as 'colonialism' and 'hegemony' do not adequately cover the whole situation: especially the projected special status of US traders in Japan and the forcing through of the Chinese Open Door-system cannot be expressed together with the above-mentioned words, and clearly result from imperialist tendencies. (Please note that I believe the page on Imperialism should be modified slightly; see the discussion page of that article for my remarks.) Misplaced Pages should use the correct terminology, and if this terminology is somewhat hazy through popular usage, we should redirect readers to Misplaced Pages's own definition as soon as the possibility presents itself, and stick to that definition except where the specific usage in an article might deviate somewhat. This is why I'm not too happy with having an explanation about the usage of the term 'imperialiasm' in this article, as this only adds to the confusion. On the whole I do not believe this article to be NPOV, though I too believe the usage of 'some' and 'others' in this article to be somewhat unspecified. Discussion on modern imperialism will always provoke some bad sentiment, as this concept is much less clearly defined than 19th century imperialism; cultural imperialism in particular has few hard definitions. Before fighting over what does and what does not comprise modern American imperialism, a workable definition of modern imperialism should be found, and it should be made clear when foreign policies and even extranational intervention becomes 'imperialist'.--Santetjan 7 July 2005 18:34 (UTC)

Inhabitants of the Mexican Cession

the entire Southwest and California, which at the time were almost wholly populated by Americans,

I find that surprising. Or are those "Americans" including the Native Americans? Does anyone have a good source for 1848 population figures? –Hajor 19:33, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

They were americans alright; they were born in the continent of America, right? But as far as I know, US citizens only call themselves americans.LtDoc 17:07, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Vote for Deletion

This article survived a Vote for Deletion. The discussion can be found here. -Splash 01:39, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

American Empire

Portions of an article called American Empire duplicate the subject of this article. The rest of the article is about a rhetorical device and should not be merged. -Acjelen 16:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Citing Misplaced Pages

Can anyone tell me how I'm supposed to cite an article in a college paper? Thanks. Karatloz 19:34, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

If you mean how to cite this page in an article you are writing I would just note the web page of the article. If you mean how do you cite a College paper article you've incorporated into this page in the references see Misplaced Pages:Cite sources/example style. -AllanHainey 10:41, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it should stand as is (combined though)

I don't understand why there is a debate. Just combine the two articles (under the same names) and it's all well and good. - web alias zeppelincheetah

Jefferson and LA Purchase

"After the Louisiana Purchase, Thomas Jefferson signed the Louisiana Government Bill, which denied the new United States territory the right to self-government. Instead, it was to be ruled by military officials under direct orders from the capitol. Since most of the population of the territory consisted of non-whites and Catholics, Jefferson felt that the government should suspend its right to self-government until enough white settlers moved west to command a majority."

Can we get some actual cites and evidence for this? Otherwise, it doesn't seem very NPOV

--ViperDaim 64.154.26.251 18:27, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Cultural Imperialism

Stating that the current cultural imperialism is "unintentional" and "a side effect of capitalism" and that "government has no role on the industries" of culture is extreme POV.LtDoc 16:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Can quotes be added to this wikipedia?

Can quotes be added to this wikipedia site? If no, where can they be added.

“…in Britain, empire was justified as a benevolent "white man's burden." And in the United States, empire does not even exist; "we" are merely protecting the causes of freedom, democracy, and justice worldwide.” 

   --The Editors, "After the attacks…the war on terrorism", Monthly Review, 53, 6, Nov., 2001. P 7

The term “imperialism”...overuse and...abuse is making it nearly meaningless as an analytical concept. Thorton concluded that “imperialism” is “more often the name of the emotion that reacts to a series of events than a definition of the events themselves….Colonization finds analysts and analogies, imperialism must contend with crusaders for and against.” --“Benevolent Assimilation” The American Conquest of the Philippines, 1899-1903; Stuart Creighton Miller