Misplaced Pages

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• Archive 1: March 17, 2005 - April 22, 2007
• Archive 2: April 26, 2007 - August 10, 2008

Second Annual WikiNYC Picnic

Greetings! You are invited to attend the second annual New York picnic on August 24! This year, it will be taking place in the Long Meadow of Prospect Park in Brooklyn. If you plan on coming, please sign up and be sure to bring something! Please be sure to come!
You have received this automated delivery because your name was on the invite list. BrownBot (talk) 20:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

This is a reminder that the WikiNYC Picnic is tomorrow (August 24) from 2 PM to 8 PM. If you plan on being lost, be sure to come ahead of time! To clarify, the picnic will be taking place within or adjacent to the Picnic House in Prospect Park, Brooklyn. I hope to see you there! --harej 03:21, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Question

I fail to see how your explanation for the reverting re: the Mackenzie Calhoun page applies. Star Trek takes place in the future. It's fictional medicine is far advanced. The scar could be removed in seconds, but it is not, therefore he has chosen to keep it. Lots42 (talk) 22:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'd have to disagree with you (politely). Many of the Calhoun books mention this and the extent of Star Trek medicine has been demonstrated dozens and dozens of times. Lots42 (talk) 03:54, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I went to the episode you linked to and found no mention of any medical technological levels. Feel free to correct me or link to something else. As for the rest of your comment, that is what I was trying to make clear; I wil attempt to find one of the books mentioning Calhoun's desire to keep the scar. I believe that will be a sufficent enough link, considering Calhoun has only appeared in the novels and one graphic novel. Lots42 (talk) 11:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

??? The three examples you gave me don't actually bolster your opinion. We have a crazy Cardassian, a proud Klingon, who like Calhoun, chooses not to revert, and some people off screen who for all we know were on their way to Sickbay to get scars reverted. Lots42 (talk) 14:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Um, no, we DO know the scar can be removed but Mac chooses not to, because it is said several times in many novels. I will look for one of these novels in order to cite it, I do not have access to them at the moment. Lots42 (talk) 23:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Do not remove

Do not remove my talkpage comments, as you did here Swampfire (talk) 00:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The Real World: Brooklyn

Yeah I wrote that and as far as I know there was no valid reason to delete what i wrote in the 1st place. It was credible info. There was no reason to delete it. Thanks. Rwhollywoodfan (talk) 01:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Take it easy. I put the quote in there because it was relevent information. You did not have to remove it. You had no reason to do that. You don't need to block me. But like I said before, there was NO REASON TO REMOVE IT! Thanks.Rwhollywoodfan (talk) 22:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I apologize. I didn't see that. My sincere apologies. Thanks for the help. Rwhollywoodfan (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC

Information on RW Brooklyn

Filming already started for almost 3 weeks now so please change it to "Filming for the season began August 2008" if you will. There are many pictures to proove it. And also all over Vevmo.com74.196.134.34 (talk) 19:35, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

CBG in brackets

Thanks. I should have thought of that. :-) --GentlemanGhost (talk) 01:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Rags Morales

RE : Morales personal life. That's weird I thought the citation had the information where he was divorced twice.

Anyway it's in the below link : http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=112859

Do you think it's worth inclusion in his article? Stextc (talk) 06:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Equus

I updated the infobox and checked through the article using the site for the purposes of WP:V. The problem with just relying on primary sources is that you can miss things which is why we ask for independent third party sources just as back-up really. Not foolproof, obviously, but if there had have been a disparity I'd have investigated further.

I'm also looking around for out of universe material (especially on character creation), as the article needs it, but can't find any. (Emperor (talk) 14:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC))

All edits that move things forward can be considered as "constructing" an article. In the end I really don't care and if you don't like it where it is, then move it. (Emperor (talk) 16:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC))

Whatever you think is the best, after all edits are always provisional and as long as the article isn't going backwards then I don't mind.

I have also had a good look around and not found much else on the character other than someone in an article on Countdown which described him as Wolverine meets Bane, which isn't that useful but I must admit to think "retractable claws? Wolverine?" but that doesn't mean that is where the idea came from, it is just there isn't much from the creators on the character design. Pity, but I'll keep an eye out. (Emperor (talk) 13:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC))

Jasmin St Claire

I have updated the talk page with the verifiable info —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stumpy6639 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Ultimates

I'll delete it every time when that badly written. Just do the rewrite as I requested and all will be fine. Asgardian (talk) 17:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Deleting information that is not to Wiki-standards is fine. As I said before, just rewrite it. I was going to do it anyway. But please don't make silly threats. Let's just get on with the business of editing. Asgardian (talk) 12:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Your block of Asgardian

Can you talk me through your block of Asgardian? I don't quite see what the block was for, so I'd appreciate being walked through it since I must be missing something. Ta. Hiding T 09:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for your input regarding Asgardian's block. I left a message in the discussion on Daniel's Talk Page. Nightscream (talk) 06:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I've read that, and the discussion at User talk:Hiding as well. And have commented at the latter. - jc37 09:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, now I'm getting confused. What was the block of Asgardian for in the first place? The stated reason is persistently removing material, but if the only examples we have are the three edits you gave me, that's not persistent and it isn't a breach of policy; he's allowed to remove unsourced material. You're right, it doesn't mean he should, but he shouldn't get blocked for it. Whether a previous involvement with a user precludes you from making a block is a hard one. I had this issue a while ago at Pat Lee, and because I'd edited the article, even though it was to revert BLP violating edits, it meant I had become involved. I don't really know how it works, but I think a rule of thumb on Misplaced Pages is that you don't block someone who makes personal attacks against you. Did you check with Daniel Case before or after the block? With regards tem. I think I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel here. Hiding T 22:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm still not getting it. It looks to me like an editorial dispute. Looking at Ultron, he's removed a ref to Annihilation Conquest #1, is that still needed in his rewrite? He's removed something sourced from an interview at newsarama, again that's allowed under policy, and he has generally tidied up various instances of plot summary. What policy is he breaching here? Looking at Vision he's removed speculation and moved what he feels is too much detail, again not against any specific policy. And looking at Bi-Beast, he removed an unsubstantiated claim, which means exactly the same thing as unsourced, and per policy the onus is not on Asgardian to substantiate it. Per policy, Asgardian can remove it, it says so at WP:V. You're right in that he doesn;t have to, and that to some it is preferable to add a fact tag, but there is no policy which says removing unsourced or unsubstantiated material is wrong. That's a violation of policy. And again, he tweaked and copy-edited. He's allowed to do all of that. And then all I can see happen next is that you post this message on his talk page, .

Look, I'm not trying to bust your chops on this, it just looks to me like it could have been handled better. If your dispute with Asgardian is on an editorial level, which it looks to me like it was, then I don't feel you should have blocked Asgardian. He hasn't committed vandalism, which is the reason posted to his talk page, he isn't "persistently" removing "valid material", because the stuff he is doing falls under editorial remit and if he is reacting in a non-constructive manner, you should generally get another admin to wade in. Look, I'm only here because Jc asked me to look into it. I don't feel it was the best block in the world, but these things happen. I recall I made a bit of an idiot of myself with you once a long time ago. I've pretty much pledged not to block Asgardian again after events in April and before. If I feel he needs blocking, my thinking is I'll go post at WP:AN and get a second opinion. Maybe that's a path you need to take. I don't know. It's your call. Looking at your block log, it is mostly ip's and new accounts, so I think this is the first time you've blocked an established user. I'm not going to sit here and say Asgardian is perfect, but I think we all agree he has come a long way since he started. Mind, so have all of us. I don't doubt you were doing what you thought was the right thing to do. All anyone can ask is that we each do our best. Hiding T 08:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I've made an idiot of myself with too many people too many times to remember them all, but I'm fairly sure our paths must have crossed one time or another. Weren't you involved in the whole T-Man saga or do I have you confused with someone else? I think we seem to be agreeing that Asgardian is terrible at communicating and a little too insistent on his preferred version. What I'm looking to prod now is, given you've tweaked Ultron to include material you would prefer in, would you now say you're involved in the article? And would that prevent any further blocks around this issue? I think we're pretty much on the same page. As to the word vandal, the block reason in the template states "continued removal", but the word "removal" links to Misplaced Pages:Vandalism, so that's why I was saying the reason indicates vandalism. I think if we can agree on some particular points, I think we may be done. Asgardian tends to copy-edit and clean-up articles, and that involves aesthetic considerations and reliance on WP:V and so on. That's allowed, and whilst there are ways of doing this that are better than others, none of them are not allowed. When there's a dispute over what to include, consensus and our policies dictate what we do, with editors discussing. This is where problems with Asgardian start. What we have to try and work out is how to move forwards from that position. My feeling is that one should just be frank, firm, but courteous with Asgardian, something like, "you removed this piece of text which I feel adds to the article and the reader's understanding. I think it should be in the article, as such I have restored it. We shouldn't edit war over this, so the only other way to sort this out is to discuss it. If you have serious issues with the text, let's discuss them. Neither of us owns the article, so if we can't sort this out between us, I think we should involve other people." It's a way forwards, and how Asgardian responds is up to him, but there are rules of engagement on Misplaced Pages as I have made clear to him. Best, Hiding T 12:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Small thing w/ All-Star Bats #10...

It was published, and, IIUC, did actualy get to comic shops before DC recalled it for pulping and reprinting.

See:

http://search.ebay.ca/All-Star-Batman-10_Collectables_W0QQcatrefZC5QQdfspZ1QQfclZ3QQfromZR7QQfrppZ50QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQnojsprZyQQpfidZ0QQsacatZ1QQsofindtypeZ0QQsofocusZbs (eBay Canada) http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIH_enCA277CA277&q=all%2dstar+batman+and+robin+10 http://newsarama.com/comics/090811-ASBR10eBay.html http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/13260.html http://wednesdayshaul.com/wordpress/2008/09/08/dcs-pulping-of-comics-continues-with-all-star-batman-robin-10/ http://comixster.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/all-star-batman-and-robin-10-recalled-due-to-cuss-words-in-the-comic/

And so on...

So "as Issue 10 has not yet been published" is not 100% accurate... It came out, DC wanted it back but didn't get'em all, so some have access to it. J Greb (talk) 02:10, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Not a biggie... I've got a feeling most LCS played fair by DC. The eBay stuff is the exceptions. IIUC DC has moved the "street date" to next Wednesday, so that may be a fairer note for an edit summary. - J Greb (talk) 02:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

"Local Comics Shop(s)"... though "Seller(s)" is probably just as valid. - J Greb (talk) 10:25, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Asgardian

Thanks for the heads-up. Perhaps I'm missing something, but so far (since his block), I see a bold edit by him. I see his post on the talk page (which coincided with his edits). I see the partial reversion by you. What would you presume the "next step" would be, if you were neutrally watching this? - jc37 08:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I think Emperor is making some valid points about discussion. For now, I think I'll defer to his experience/wisdom in how you (plural - you and Asgardian, and potentially others) might engage in discussion together. As an aside, one thing I also noticed was that (this time at least) Asgardian made his changes in several edits rather than one overall "big" edit, which was another concern of the past. - jc37 22:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

The "aside" I mentioned above, was more a note about previous concerns. (Which is why it was an "aside" : ) - jc37 23:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the note too. I agree that his edit summarise are inadequate/inaccurate , and but he is discussing the edits on the talk page (which must surely count as an attempt to "solicit discussion"). I'd suggest trying to engage him there - if you can make a good argument for putting material back then that seems the best way to move forward. (Emperor (talk) 14:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC))

Problem is that if he is at least making some effort to communicate and you aren't prepared to then things are obviously not going to get any better. He is rarely in blatant violation of guidelines, so it can get frustrating as it comes down to a matter of opinion, but you have to try and see if you can thrash out your differences with him (we can't do that for you if it really just comes down to your opinion vs his) and if there is still an impasse then we can try and thrash things out on the Comics Project talk page and see if we can't come up with a solution. (Emperor (talk) 20:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC))

Problem is that if you don't even try he can point at things like the talk page there to show he has made an effort and it will look like you are in the wrong, which is going to make it more difficult to sort this all out. (Emperor (talk) 20:41, 19 September 2008 (UTC))

Well it has to be worth a try. Asgardian must realise that there is a finite limit to the number of times we go around the block on this issue and, believe me, there have been improvements over the years and he is prepared to listen to reason. We'll all have to assume good faith and see where it takes us. (Emperor (talk) 03:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC))

And to clarify, my preference is unification of discussion, deference, and politeness. If you look more closely at my edit history, you may find that actually I don't "keep everyone else's" displayed on my talk page. I mostly leave appreciated "gifts" (like Barnstars and thank yous), since that seems polite. And also multi-person discussions, since the proper unification location would seem to be my talk page in those cases. Else I defer to the other person.

For example, look at your discussion with Hiding. Though I've attempted to add his responses to the discussion, imagine trying to read that without it being unified, especially with the other comments of the other people.

And the history noting that someone commented on my talk page is there in my page history. In most cases, one merely needs to go to that person's talk page (or archive thereof) for the full discussion.

(There's a longer version of my reasons for this, but that's the basics.) - jc37 23:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

And now you've removed your comments, which removes context. But it's your talk page, I suppose. - jc37 01:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how the continuity of the page is "difficult to read". Threading/indentation, and timestamps make it all too clear, I would presume?

And there are several ways in which editors discuss/format. (You've apparently not run across "talk page rules" notices yet? I've personally found that most (though not all, by any means) long-time editors prefer unified discussion of one kind or other.)

That said, as I noted above, do as you will, I suppose (per WP:TALK). - jc37 01:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, threading is done on user talk page just as posts are threaded on an article talk page, or any other discussion page.

And no, I was speaking of something else. See User talk:Horologium for one such example. Note, of course, that such "rules" are voluntary, and are merely guides to help other editors understand how the user may respond.

Incidentally, at this point, I would typically split this off-topic discussion to its own thread. (And will momentarily, which you are, of course, free to revert.) - jc37 03:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

If you do this, could it be done with a bit more care? Because one edit removed my previous two replies here and, while clearly accidental, it could be taken the wrong way by some (as it is considered poor etiquette, at best, to remove good faith edits on someone else's talk page). (Emperor (talk) 04:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC))

Agreed, and my apologies for the accidental removal.

In any case, I think I'm done with this "discussion" concerning talk page formatting, as it appears to be to a point where I no longer feel that clarification is being requested. - jc37 04:40, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the note - they are two of the 4 or 5 things that seem to reoccur a lot (which could be said to boil down to an overly strict reading of the guidelines). I've left a note on the Black Bolt talk page and already had both that and Ultron on my watchlist so was keeping abreast of things. I'm afraid I've had little success elsewhere and am unsure how effective I've been really (although I'm not prepared to throw the towel in!!) but jc37 is on point on this one so perhaps he might have some clever ideas (he has the page on his watchlist so I assume will drop in). (Emperor (talk) 23:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC))

It might be better to recuse yourself making the last call on that as you are actively engaged in these content disputes - I know, after getting more involved in trying to help out, I feel the decision should be left to a third party (either a trusted one within the Comics Project like Hiding or jc37 - sorry guys but I thought I should name names ;) ) or we can ask an unconnected third party to look over the edits. As he isn't running a horse and cart through the guidelines (sometimes it can even be classed as sticking to the words of the guideline and not the spirit, other times the guidelines don't support his statements - but rarely anything that is a blatant violation) it could be tricky to prove definitively but in the end it should give a result that is acceptable to most people. (Emperor (talk) 15:31, 26 September 2008 (UTC))

Well there are often good grounds for removing content and even deleting articles (WP:CRYSTALBALL is one that comes up quite a bit and there is clearly a grey area between the ball getting rolling before the actual issues launch and having it in paper - however, the guidelines do state criteria that allow for an early inclusion and if you can tick the boxes it is usually fine). Hiding and jc37 do have this page on their watchlists, I assume, but I'll drop them a note anyway. (Emperor (talk) 16:15, 26 September 2008 (UTC))

(Cross-posting)

I was watching this yesterday, but at that time "discussion" was just starting.

I have no opinion on the current disputes except:

• (again) discussion with a goal for determining consensus should happen, per WP:BRD, and
• no, based on the discussion last time, and the edits I see now, Nightscream is not an uninvolved admin, per WP:ADMIN (direct link seems to be WP:UNINVOLVED). Hiding tried to politely help Nightscream understand their involvement last time. That said, if Nightscream disputes this, I will post a notice to WP:AN (with supportive links) and see how others feel as well. (Though we already have Emperor, Hiding, and myself. How many admins should it require?) - jc37 22:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I am aware of how my administrative status is viewed, which is why I tried to talk to Asgardian, as per Emperor's requests. As I tried to explain to Emperor on his Talk Page, and other Talk Pages, I've attempted to speak with Asgardian, but Asgardian has largely ignored me, has responded only sporadically to my posts, usually preferring to revert my edits, without discussion, and without citing policies (except for those he makes up), and when I respond to his arguments by pointing out how actual policy/guidelines do not support his position, he again ignores me by repeating the same original statement, and not directly addressing my rebuttal of it. Nightscream (talk) 02:38, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Before I say anything else, I want to try to clarify something:

• "I am aware of how my administrative status is viewed..."

I sincerely hope the you understand that the adjoing phrase is: "...in this situation". And to further clarfy: I might re-write the sentence to be: "I am aware of how my usage of administrative tools may be viewed as inappropriate in this situation." - Or something similar. In how I understand it, typically, by joining in the content discussion, you become "just another editor" in most cases. (There are WP:IAR exceptions, obviously. But atm, even if I am discounted, I don't think that this situation has a lack of administrative oversight : )

But what I really want to make abundantly clear (speaking for myself at least) - None of this has anything to do with how I may view you as an admin. Honestly, I don't recall ever encountering you prior to this (I may have, but then I encounter a lot of people : )

Anyway, back to your comments, I am empathetic to your frustrations in communication with Asgardian. As you have discovered, this isn't something new, but I (and others) sincerely feel that he's improving. This may or may not help your frustration level, but it's at least something to give us hope for the future. (He really does seem to be "getting better" about this.)

And finally, if, for whatever reason, you're uncomfortable dropping me a note concerning this or future situations, I am fairly certain that Hiding, J Greb, Emperor (who are all fairly closely acquainted with the past situations), and even potentially others, would all presumably be happy to help however they can, if they can.

I hope this helps clarify.

(Incidentally, please note that this is the first thing I've read since signing in.) - jc37 05:01, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that qualifier was implied in terms of what I intended when I wrote that. And no, I never got the sense that your view of me was in issue. I genuinely appreciate your participation, since a better consensus can be reached the more that others, esp. admins, chime in, and I don't want you stop doing so. I just hope that you would address the specific points being addressed, and not just in regards to the edits, but the issue of behavior. (The one thing I'd wish you'd change is retaining and archive your TP threads instead of deleting them, as per policy, so that there is a cohesive, continuity-based record of them.)

As far as Asgardian, while I genuinely admire the depth and detail of his valid edits--the trimming, the placing of sources, the removing of POV content, and think he would be an invaluable asset to WP if he confined himself to these areas, I'm sorry, but I do not see improvement with regard to his adherence to policy or in how he interacts with others. This isn't blind dissent either, I'm pointing directly to the examples of his behavior that I have listed on his, Emperor's, and the Black Bolt Talk Page, which I'm sorry, is inexcusable, and identical to his behavior to date. Nightscream (talk) 05:48, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that an assertion (about whether particular edits follow a particular guideline, or not) can be subjective, and may be a matter of each person's interpretation or POV. And when two (or more) editors disagree on how the guidelines on content may apply, they should discuss it if they wish to achieve resolution.

And I might note that nearly every editor (that I can think of atm) who prunes content, typically faces similar adversarial responses. Asgardian just has baggage from past discussions (and arbcom restrictions), and isn't communicating as well as he might (and at times comes off a bit superciliously). These things are not helping him, to be sure.

But he's using edit summaries now. He's cut down dramatically on large whole-page edits. These are positive changes.

Remember, this is actually more than we require of other editors. Edit summaries are greatly preferred, but not required. And anyone may edit a page as he was. But at that time, his edits were just too controversial for some editors, and his unwillingness (then) to discuss, led to eventual sanctions and restrictions.

What issue(s) do you have with his behaviour that is outside of a dispute over content?

Note that I've just recently warned him regarding his not indicating in his edit summaries what the edits actually are. Edits which may appear to be subterfuge may be inapproriate per his restrictions.

(Also, after my previous attempt, I am dubious of whether a discussion concerning talk page preferences, and whether or not they are policy (which they're not) is likely to be a productive one between us. Per policy, you are essentially free to refactor placement of my comments, as long as it doesn't become disruptive, and does not present them in a way which might misconvey my intent, or meaning, etc.) - jc37 06:34, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

It can only be subjective if both parties state cite the policy in question, and enter into a discussion in which they not only state their position, but respond directly to each other's counterarguments. Asgardian is not doing this. He does not cite policy, he makes declarations by fiat that imply some guideline or discussion, and largely ignores attempts at discussion, with sporadic exceptions. Often when he does discuss things, he ignores the counterarguments made by someone, by just repeating his position over and over. How many times now, for example, did I explain to him that the word "speculation" does not mean what he uses it to mean, and provide my reasoning as to why certain information does not fail CRYSTAL, only for him to simply ignore this, and repeat the assertion that it does? I posted this on his Talk Page. he never responded to it, but repeated his position on the Black Bolt Talk Page. I reposted the same counterreasoning regarding CRYSTAL. He then repeated the notion again that it violated CRYSTAL. Just look at his Talk Page, Emperor's Talk Page, and the Black Bolt Talk Page (as well as the edit histories of Black Bolt and Ultron for details evidence of this behavior. As for Edit Summaries, I don't recall saying anything about them, but J Greb has admonished him on his Talk Page for using a deceptive one. As for whole-page edits, I see no problem with them, as long as the edits are valid, and done in good faith. Nightscream (talk) 07:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

"It can only be subjective if both parties state cite the policy in question, and enter into a discussion in which they not only state their position, but respond directly to each other's counterarguments."

Actually, an interpretation can be subjective even if it's only one person espousing the interpretation.

As I said before, I'm staying neutral to the content of the discussion. Emperor has kindly accepted my request to help mentor Asgardian, and is also in the discussion you mention.

A fair chunk of the rest would seem to be you wanting more substance over style; of how he should be more communicative; of wanting more direct proof to back up his assertions. That may be a fair request. But (while it may be frustrating) not meeting that request isn't a blockable offense. The worst that providing style over substance may do is to possibly cause that person's arguments to be giving less weight by whomever determines consensus/closes the discussion.

I think that if these are your concerns, then the best thing you can and should do is to continually ask for clarification. Ask for the "proof" that you're looking for. Noting, of course that it should be remembered that the policies and guidelines that you're both interpreting/espousing are intended to be a reflection of common practice and prior consensus, and in most cases, has little to do with whatever the state may be of the "codified text" on some page. (I point this out, as it's a common misconception.)

When I earlier asked about behaviour, I was asking about disruptive behaviour. My apologies for not being clearer.

And finally, I just would like to reiterate, while I am happy to help give advice on etiquette, and offer my general thoughts on policy and the interpretation thereof, I'm simply not going to join in on the content discussion. I am staying neutral to that. To put it another way, I'm not mediating the content dispute. (Though I think you both could do a lot worse than to ask Emperor to mediate for you.) I'm simply acting as a neutral observer to make sure that the discussion does not become disruptive (through things like edit warring, personal attacks, etc.), and that Asgardian stays within the restrictions that have been placed upon him.

I've offered you both some advice as to how to better communicate with each other. I hope it helps, but as anything, it's merely advice, and should be seen as such.

In all, I hope this helps. - jc37 09:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Jc, I'm sorry, but it doesn't appear that you're listening to what I've been saying. You talk about the subjectivity of one person interpreting policy, about continually asking for clarification, and better communicating, even though I've made it clear that Asgardian refuses requests to do so. How can one communicate with him if he refuses to engage in discussion? I didn't say anything about "style over substance", and have no idea what you mean. I have no problem with arguments being made that my interpretation is subjective, wrong, or doesn't fit the given situation best. My point is that Asgardian isn't making any, except in the most cursory or sporadic manner, and doesn't respond to rebuttals. Didn't you read this above? And yes, blanking page content, without citing a valid rationale, and without discussing it with someone else, continuing to revert it while a discussion is ongoing, and making personal comments about another user/admin, is most certainly disruptive behavior, and when the user refuses to cease or even talk about it when attempts to made to do so, blocking is indeed a valid recourse. Emperor and J Greb have been admonishing him of late too, so it's not like it's just me. If you're mentoring him, then you should educate him on these points. Nightscream (talk) 15:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm thinking that you're not understanding my comments. I'm not sure how to better explain, so I'll try to re-explain.

My role in this: a neutral observer.

I'm not specifically a mentor, or mediator in this.

(And while you don't seem to understand the warning I gave Asgardian, it seems fairly clear that he did.)

"blanking page content, without citing a valid rationale" - he was warned concerning that, though I will note that any other editor would be allowed to boldly make such an edit. AFAIK, that's not normally a blockable offense.

"continuing to revert it while a discussion is ongoing" - now that is indeed a problem (And he was blocked for 48 hours for that). But then, someone else had to be also reverting with him. Which means it could be a question of whether blocking (one or both editors) or page protection is more appropriate.

"making personal comments about another user/admin" - being an admin has absolutely no bearing on whether comments towards you are appropriate or not. If you don't like the tone or content of someone's comments, finding them to be uncivil, ask them to stop. If they don't, find another admin to investigate (presuming one osn't already present) and if appropriate, the commenter may be "helped" to cease. In this case, I've spoken to him already about his words and tone, and he has acquiesced to my request.

"when the user refuses to even talk about it when attempts to made to do so" - nope, you can't force someone to talk with you. That said, if they willfully exclude themselves from a discussion, then what they may have hoped to achieve may not be achieved. But no, it's in no way a blockable offence. (I commented out "to cease, or" because that's already been explained.)

One other note, blocks are intended to be preventative, not punitive. So try to accept that actions in the past are in the past. He's been blocked for certain things, he's agreed to try to not intentionally repeat the disruptive actions of the past.

I think at this point, the best advice I could give is to move forward, and as good Wikipedians in the spirit of WikiLove, presume good faith of each other and start anew.

I see him listed in the recent edit history of the talk page in question. If you're not happy with the quality of substance of his comments/responses, ask him to clarify.

If you're still not understanding, I'll be happy to try to clarify again. Though as an option, I can ask another editor (admin or otherwise) to read my comments and attempt to convey them, if it's my phrasing that's somehow confusing. - jc37 16:16, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

"My role in this: a neutral observer. I'm not specifically a mentor, or mediator in this." I'm not sure why you keep repeating this, as I said or implied otherwise (that I'm aware of).

"And while you don't seem to understand the warning I gave Asgardian, it seems fairly clear that he did." I read and understood your warning to Asgardian. If you can explain what I said that indicates otherwise, please do so.

"he was warned concerning that, though I will note that any other editor would be allowed to boldly make such an edit. AFAIK, that's not normally a blockable offense." Blanking page valid page content, without a valid rationale (or using a deceptive or euphemistic one), against policy, and without responding to others who ask to discuss it with you, has nothing to do with "boldness". That's reckless editing, which the Boldness Policy page warns against. If Asgardian has a valid rationale to delete material, cites it, and discusses it in the interests of transparency, that's fine. But if the deleted information is valid, no rationale is given, and repeated attempts to communicate and warnings are ignored or met with hostile behavior, yes, that is disruptive behavior, and is indeed grounds for blocking. It was why he was blocked the last time, and that block was upheld. While some expressed discomfort with my being the one who did the blocking (which I responded to by alerting you of this newest situation), no one, that I recall or know of, contested the block or its legitimacy other than Asgardian. There was one instance in which Asgardian cited the guideline about volume numbers to me, and I accepted this, but this is the exception. He seems dead set on ignoring me when I refute his statements, as with his citation of CRYSTAL.

I also find this statement a bit contradictory: He was warned about something that you claim would be okay if any other editor did it? Do I take it to you mean that you disagree with the warning? If so, why did you warn him about this yourself, and why mention it now, as if to indicate that you support it?

"now that is indeed a problem (And he was blocked for 48 hours for that). But then, someone else had to be also reverting with him." When was he blocked for 48 hours? The only such block I see on his page was the upholding of his last block, and that was for making personal attacks. No mention of editing during an ongoing discussion was made, as he could not have edited anyway when blocked (unless his IP wasn't blocked). For my part, I have not been reverting his edits during this discussion.

"being an admin has absolutely no bearing on whether comments towards you are appropriate or not." I did not say or imply that being an admin has any bearing on whether comments towards them are appropriate or not. If you prefer that we exclusively use the word "user", and not "admin", we can do that, but please do not read into my inclusiveness or indecisiveness in word choice as anything other than that.

"nope, you can't force someone to talk with you." Misplaced Pages requires editors in a dispute to communicate. That has nothing to do with "forcing" someone to talk. Requiring something and "forcing" it are not the same thing. And yes, refusing to talk, at least as a component of the overall problem, can contribute to blocking as a necessary recourse, as aforementioned. How would ignoring repeated attempts at discussion and warnings not lead one to conclude that blocking might be needed? If a question arises as to whether a given edit or set of edits are bold or disruptive, and the editor refuses to discuss it, and he/she continues such activities, what would you prescribe instead? That the editor simply go on deleting information that others believe is valid, without oversight?

"blocks are intended to be preventative, not punitive. So try to accept that actions in the past are in the past. He's been blocked for certain things, he's agreed to try to not intentionally repeat the disruptive actions of the past." If he has agreed not to repeat his disruptive actions, then I'd say that he has not lived up to that agreement, as his current actions are the same as before (this despite the fact that you admit his prior actions were disruptive, but that his current behavior is not). Yes, they are preventative. I never said or implied that blocks were punitive.

"I think at this point, the best advice I could give is to move forward, and......start anew." We have already "started anew", as I heeded Emperor's request to me to try and engage him in conversation, and as I have told you and him repeatedly, Asgardian ignores me. You say that I should ask him to clarify. If you're a neutral observer, you'd read the Talk Page, instead of just its Edit History, and you'd have seen that I already asked him to do this, many times, on that page and on his own Talk Page, and he has ignored me. The most recent time was yesterday, and he has continued editing since then, without responding to me, so I'm a bit perplexed by this suggestion of yours. This doesn't seem to be an issue of "understanding" on my part, a lack of acknowledgment on your part of what I've already said. Can you explain why you'd keep repeating the suggestion that I do what I already informed you I had done many times already? Can you explain why you restricted yourself to the History of that Talk Page instead of reading it, if you're an observer?

"If you're still not understanding, I'll be happy to try to clarify again. Though as an option, I can ask another editor (admin or otherwise) to read my comments and attempt to convey them, if it's my phrasing that's somehow confusing." You have not established that I have exhibited any lack of understanding in the first place, and I wonder if this condescending comment, along with the other fallacies in your post, reveals whether are are truly as objective as you claim. If this is truly the most constructive, "neutral" talk you can offer, I don't think any more needs to be said between you and I. I will be contacting other administrators regarding this. Thank you for your time. Nightscream (talk) 23:42, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

• I'll respond to that last, first. It wasn't intending to be condescending in any way. I was sincerely concerned that what I was attempting to convey was (for some unknown reason) not being conveyed. The best way I know how to resolve that is to see if someone else can act as "interpreter" and perhaps help explain more clearly.

• And please feel free to contact other admins. I strongly feel that the "more eyes", the better.

• Now to your other comments - in respective order:

• I keep "repeating" it because it seems to me that you've attempted several times to draw me into the content discussion. I'm not sure that this is intentional on your part, but I felt that it was something worth clarifying, just in case.

• It was a reference to how you keep mentioning how Emperor and others have concerns about Asgardian's recent edits. Due to that, it appeared that you were unaware of either that he was warned, or the implications of the warning.

• Ok, this has several parts.

First, the removal of a section of text isn't the "blanking a page" that you're looking for. "Blanking a page" means that a "significant portion" of the article is removed. Please read WP:VANDAL. From what I can see, you are and were doing several things specifically listed as what not to do.

And, again, you can't force someone to talk with you, or even force someone to discuss their edits. You simply cannot block someone for refusing to discuss. (Unless a previous restriction has been placed - we'll get back to that) What an admin can do is if the person refuses to discuss for a significant legnth of time (and not when they are involved in the discussion), is revert the edits. If the editor continues to repeat such edits, to the point of disruption (which is a question of discernment, obviously), then the editor may be blocked for the continued (unexplained, and potentially disruptive) edits.

And my suggestions were and are suggestions to "keep trying". If you don't understand him, if you don't like how his comments are presented, if you don't feel that he's responded that way you would like, but you are still interested in resolution of the situation: keep trying. Other additional options are to request comment from others, such as by placing a note at the WP:VP, or a related WikiProject. (I presume that would be Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Comics in this case.)

I'll address his "previous block" below.

And the reason that I warned him for something that wouldn't normally be a blockable offense is that he has been instructed to provide better edit summaries for his edits. So he has a "prior restriction". I'm fairly certain that he knows and understands this. And though I've attempted to convey this to you before, perhaps now you understand more clearly per this context.

• In looking back over the block, I see that it was claimed to be for civility. In my discussion with DC, when I suggested that it be reduced to 48 hours, my intention (which is my fault for not making clear) was for the edit warring (as well as the inappropriate comments in the unblock request). And in particular: "However, he's still doing large mass edits in a single edit (and has been now for awhile, I note in his edit history), which he's supposed to try to avoid." - A specific case of "repeated edits" which he has been warned to not do. Hence why the 48 hour block was quite appropriate. While my intent was due to repeated violations of his arbcom restrictions, DC was focused on the civility issues. (The civility issue would have only been a 24 hour block, but DC was merely increasing your initial block length.) So 24 (arb) + 24 (civ) = 48. I clarified it on Asgardian's talk page (over several subsequent edits). And should it be necessary, his next block in this situation (per previous advice from User:Taxman) should be (at least) 72 hours.

• And my apologies if I have misinterpreted your usage of "admin" in this discussion. As there is the possibility that there is a "communication breakdown" (a perceived potential lack of understanding between us), I've been attempting to be as concrete in interpretation of comments as possible.

• "Misplaced Pages requires editors in a dispute to communicate." - No it doesn't. There is simply no requirement anywhere that an editor must discuss their edits. Though if they choose to not, their edits will likely be reverted per WP:BRD. And if they choose to not engage in the "D" portion, then it's fairly likely that their edits will not be re-inserted. If they then choose to try to re-insert (revert) without further discussion, they may be blocked, though not for the lack of discussion, but for taking the action (the reversion). A general rule of thumb: An editor is blocked for an inappropriate action. There are very rare situations (I can't think of any atm) in which an editor may be blocked for not taking an action (i.e. for not editing).

• Again, this was merely a suggestion to try to "start fresh". Sort of a: "Ok, he's been blocked, let's move on."

• And again, the suggestion is to "start fresh". And he doesn't seem to be ingoring you. (As I note on this talk page.) And I didn't restrict myself. That was merely a way to point to evidence to the contrary. But since the point (at that point anyway) was a question of whether he had responded at all, I was noting quantity, while attempting to avoid commenting on the "substance" of the comments. (As substance didn't seem necessarily relevant to that specific question.)

• And I already responded to your last points. Though I will actually go further, and endorse a posting to WP:AN if you feel that additional eyes are warranted.

• I'd like to suggest one other thing. However, my concern in suggesting is that, in reading the "tone" of several of your responses to me, I'm getting the sense that you're not taking my suggestions in the light in which they are offered. That said, I sincerely think I'd be remiss if I didn't offer you the suggestion.

If you would like to go into an admin mentorship program, I would happily endorse. There are some excellent admins who know the policies, guidelines, process, and the ins and outs of avoiding the accidental pitfalls with the tools. I personally had the happy fortune to have quite a few long-time admins who commonly associated with me even prior to my becoming an admin. And I think that their help and support was invaluable. (For example, User:Hiding coached me through my first block.) And I sincerely think you could similarly benefit.

• Anyway, as always, I hope this helps. - jc37 06:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Latest long message

I did get this and I will look into it. God, it's complicated. Daniel Case (talk) 14:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

IP accounts

Hello, I've been frustrated lately with long-term IP accounts refusing to sign-in (even though they're not required to) at talk: British Isles and talk:Republic of Ireland. Feel free to delete my posting at the IP-in-questions talk-page. GoodDay (talk) 20:15, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I've removed my whole posting. IPs should be forced to register, after being on Misplaced Pages for 1-month (IMHO). GoodDay (talk) 20:19, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I suspect some long-term IPs are banned registered users, getting around their blocks. GoodDay (talk) 20:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

To be on the safe side, I'll ignore them (until they sign-in). GoodDay (talk) 20:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Fraser Institute

The Fraser Institute makes no bones about its conservatism or its opposition to Canada's medicare system. Spoonkymonkey (talk) 02:12, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's a link that should clear things up: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/fraserinstitute/ Spoonkymonkey (talk) 02:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you read the article. It's from the Canadian Broadcasting, a very reputable source. I would p[refer you do this rather than waste my time. Spoonkymonkey (talk) 03:00, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. I was a bit cranky last night. The Fraser Institute, as you can see by the Canadian Broadcasting Corp article, does studies from the point of view of pro-capitalism. It also has been engaged in a series of studies in which it tries to show Canada's medicare system operates poorly because of long waiting times for surgery and emergency rooms. To say that it's "right wing" is not meant as an insult. It is also not a stretch to say that it's anti-medicare. I suppose "right of centre" might sound a bit better. However, I don't think anyone familiar with Canadian politics would dipsute my choice of words, whether they are rightists, leftists, centrists or people involved with the Fraser Institute. I get snappy when I think I'm being dragged into discussions by Wiki-fiddlers, the type of people who run up their contribution counts by putting requests for citations all over entries and doing no real research, editing or writing. I see you do actually contribute substantially to the project, so I should have cut you some slack. You'll see most of my work involves copy editing, and that I'm not accused very often of NPOV. Spoonkymonkey (talk) 22:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Comic Book Publication Dates

I agree - I'd go with both. Personally I think volume is rather clunky and open to confusion and would be fine with using the year the new series started in, but anything that helps clarifying the situation is fine by me. It might be worth running past the Comics Project talk page to get consensus but it'd certainly be an approach I'd agree with (as "volume" doesn't really help people place it chronologically - especially as some series are long running). (Emperor (talk) 03:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC))

Tiger Shark

In answer to your question, see here: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Comics/editorial guidelines#Titles with numerous volumes As to the mini-series, yup, will make a slight correction. There's also a vol. 4 out there as well. Asgardian (talk) 05:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

All-Bats

I will point that there was no source cited for the covers #1 to #8. It was surprising just because I updated that section to get asked for a source. Ax the DC site gets continuously updated, the source will disappear but the published issue will then be the source. There was no point in including a source that would be replaced in three months. The next time you have a problem of that kind, you flash the section asking for the source instead of deleting it. --Leocomix (talk) 07:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikis Take Manhattan

Wikis Take Manhattan Next: Saturday September 27 This box: view • talk • edit

WHAT Wikis Take Manhattan is a scavenger hunt and free content photography contest aimed at illustrating Misplaced Pages and StreetsWiki articles covering sites and street features in Manhattan and across the five boroughs of New York City. The event is based on last year's Misplaced Pages Takes Manhattan, and has evolved to include StreetsWiki this year as well.

LAST YEAR'S EVENT

• Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Takes Manhattan/Spring 2008 (a description of the results, and the uploading party)
• Commons:Misplaced Pages Takes Manhattan/Gallery (our cool gallery)

WINNINGS? Prizes include a dinner for three with Misplaced Pages creator Jimmy Wales at Pure Food & Wine, gift certificates to Bicycle Habitiat and the LimeWire Store, and more!

WHEN The hunt will take place Saturday, September 27th from 1:00pm to 6:30pm, followed by prizes and celebration.

WHO All Wikipedians and non-Wikipedians are invited to participate in team of up to three (no special knowledge is required at all, just a digital camera and a love of the city). Bring a friend (or two)!

REGISTER The proper place to register your team is here. It's also perfectly possible to register on the day of when you get there, but it will be slightly easier for us if you register beforehand.

WHERE Participants can begin the hunt from either of two locations: one at Columbia University (at the sundial on college walk) and one at The Open Planning Project's West Village office. Everyone will end at The Open Planning Project:

• Wikis Take Manhattan page at The Open Planning Project

349 W. 12th St. #3

Between Greenwich & Washington Streets

By the 14th St./8th Ave. ACE/L stop

FOR UPDATES

Check out:

• Wikis Take Manhattan main website

This will have a posting if the event is delayed due to weather or other exigency.

Thanks,

Pharos

You can add or remove your name from the New York City Meetups invite list at Misplaced Pages:Meetup/NYC/Invite list.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 00:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikis Take Manhattan rescheduled for October 4

Wikis Take Manhattan has been rescheduled for next Saturday, October 4, due to the rain predicted for this weekend.. I hope you can make it to the new time, and bring a friend (or two)!--Pharos (talk) 23:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Bridget Marquardt divorce

Good afternoon Nightscream,
Thx 4 your edit removal of Bridet being divorced. I kept telling 'queer scout' (from this 70.108.133.72 (talk) ) but she kept reverting & putting it back in. I told her if she takes a screencap of the page that is acceptable. The link to the gray main court screen isnt ok, & that is what QS linked. Thx. 70.108.115.9 (talk) 17:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
_
You're welcome. However, I'm not sure if a screencap is appropriate. Also, I encourage you to register. It's free, and takes only seconds. Welcome to Misplaced Pages! :-) Nightscream (talk) 04:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
_
Afternoon. Y wouldnt a screencap be alright? So long as it shows the web adress box, and the the screencap is properly xplained when it added to wik images, it should be good right? I dont get y that website doesnt have a direct link anyways. 70.108.115.9 (talk) 16:53, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

OHOTMU

Yes, Misplaced Pages doesn't regard it as reliable. I will try and find the link. Unfortunately, it is proven wrong quite easily. Strength is the best example as the characters are usually far stronger than their supposed limit. Thor, for example, can lift over a million tons (to judge by feats in the comic books), not a mere hundred. So if that's incorrect, then by that logic it all has to go. By the by, I am getting another opinion on Black Bolt. Asgardian (talk) 04:03, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Comics/editorial_guidelines#The_use_of_in-universe_statistics_and_chronology Regards Asgardian (talk) 04:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Some thoughts

I've been asked to again look over recent events and postings here and elsewhere. From my end I think you're having a hard time working out how to deal with User:Asgardian. I can understand and appreciate that. It looks to me like you had issues with an edit at the Black Bolt article. You raised these on Asgardian's talk page, . It then looks like Asgardian again removed info and posted why to the talk page rather than to either your talk page or his/hers. It looks to me like you may have missed that, and posted a warning on Asgardian's page, . I think the warning is overly strong, but that's just my opinion. From there Asgardian reverts teh article again, and so you post another warning, . Again, I think this is the wrong way of doing it. What you seem to be wanting to say to Asgardian is that he/she shouldn't be acting as he/she is, which is fair enough, but I don't think the use of the warning templates is the right way of doing that. Certainly Asgardian shouldn't have reverted the page, but it looks to some people like you are trying to use your "admin powers" to settle the dispute in your favour. I don't actually think that is true, to be honest, you just want your opinion to be respected, as is your right on Misplaced Pages, and you are attempting to explain that to Asgardian through your warnings. All in all, it looks to me like you're getting frustrated here. It also looks like there is a content dispute, and you both have opinions on the right way to present the article. I think there are issues with the way Asgardian is reacting, certainly not following BRD, but I think also your warnings are not helping the matter. I think you may be better of posting details of the dispute at the comics project to get more eyes on it than making it an issue with Asgardian's behaviour. Asgardian's behaviour can be better judged by outsiders. If you can demonstrate a consensus which Asgardian is acting against, you will have a position which can be better sympathised with. I don't think you're way off base here, but I think there's a better way to solve it. Get more people involved. I think in this post of yours, , the third paragraph, which starts off "Finally, please, no more threats" is counter-productive. It doesn't help move the debate on and is commenting on the user rather than the article. I think the first, second and fourth paragraphs are the best parts of that post and the avenues you need to concentrate on. You have made a case, and you are right that the onus is on Asgardian to reply to it. Concentrate on discussing those points, rather than the rightness or wrongness of threats, warnings and the rest of it. There is more than one way to write an article, and people should explain why they think your way is less right than their way. Hope this in some way helps. If you do find yourself getting frustrated with Asgardian, it might be better to walk away from the issue for a while or go to someone else for advice rather than responding immediately. I think your request for a review to Daniel Case is a good one, and I hope he does give some input, I'd certainly be happy to offer any advice or answer any questions you have. I tend to suffer from frustration myself. A key thing to remember is that things don't have to happen on Misplaced Pages immediately. They can be allowed to happen eventually. All the best, Hiding T 11:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

• I don't mean to say that behaviour is not an issue, but I just think making the argument about behaviour can be counter-productive. You're right that we should try and correct behaviour though. Hopefully the content issue will work itself out and then we can review behavioural issues. I have posted a comment on Asgardian's page regarding the need to discuss, and hopefully that'll move things forwards. Hiding T 13:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

• There's not really a contradiction. In my mind you can correct behaviour by ignoring behaviour which is wrong and setting a good example through your own actions. If Asgardian refuses to talk, then there are several options. Leave the article a while, get other editors involved or revert once on a daily basis until someone gets bored. The last is not exemplary, the first can be frustrating which leaves the middle option as the best way forwards. Hopefully the issue is resolving itself. Do you want me to provide any input anywhere? Hiding T 08:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

RE: Deleted Barnstar

'Tis OK. :) CarpetCrawler (talk) 19:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Jim Lawson

The information I added earlier is common knowledge to most HVRHS graduates and staff and is even stated on the schools wiki entry, is there any way to keep it?? Sweetnorbert (talk) 21:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Ultron

I've started a discussion here, and would be interested in your opinion on the inclusion of that content. Thanks.

In addition, I thought you should know that Asgardian has continued his deletion of material in a number of edits:

• In this edit he removed an entire section, but in his Edit Summary, he claims that he "reworked" it. I have restored it.
• In this edit, despite the fact there is currently an ongoing discussion on the Black Bolt Talk Page regarding the use of comic book titles in articles, Asgardian deleted a reference to the title in which an event took place. I restored it.
• In this edit, Asgardian deleted most of a section, calling it "fancruft". I started the discussion on that Talk Page because I think there's room to argue over this, and have not reverted it for this reason. I explained why I believe it's not "fancruft", but think we need a consensus on it.
• In this edit, Asgardian deleted two thirds of a section, claiming in his Edit Summary, "Not well written - just the facts." First of all, I explained to Asgardian some time ago that poor writing is not a valid rationale to delete material, in lieu of a rewrite. Second, by saying "just the facts", he implying that there was non-factual material in that section. As one of the editors who participated in the writing/editing of that section, I assure you, having read the books, that it is indeed facts. In addition, by deleting mention of Yellowjacket by name, Asgardian is deleting mention of the only appearance of someone under that identity in the Ultimate universe. I pointed this out to Asgardian on his Talk Page. Nightscream (talk) 00:40, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the notice (which you seem to have also cross-posted to others, which presumably prompted Emperor's comments, below).

To me, this looks like a content discussion. A question of whether certain content should be considered "fancruft" (a term, the general use of which, I personally am not thrilled with, as its usage is generally vague and subjective) and whether such content should be kept in an article or removed. That said, while I personally may not like the term, I have no opinion on whether it, or rather, Asgardian's implied meaning of it, is applicable in this case, which, as I noted, appears to be a content question.

As I believe you know, when it comes to Asgardian and questions of content, I by default remain neutral.

That said, considering that you have had concerns about the sections of text that Asgardian has removed in the past, perhaps a notice to the WikiProject talk page may be in order? (Perhaps even crossposting this same notice to there.)

I hope this helps. - jc37 01:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Other points

On your other points:

• The What If? is an alternate version and should be in the appropriate section. Whether it should then be trimmed down is another issue (and apparently a similar one to the Ultron problems). I'd favour a smaller section but not so minimal. The edit summary is bordering on the misleading (although one man's "reworked" is another man's "stripped to the bare bones").

• That is an issue that has come up time and time again - I can't see any reason the FCB has to completely exclude any out-of-universe material - the big problem is too much in-universe content. I have no idea why the Kenneth Branagh information isn't considered newsworthy despite it being actual news in one of the leading trade publications.

• Anything ending in "cruft" should be avoided - a decent reason should be provided. I can see the reasoning behind it (to stop runaway reiteration of plot) but the exact length is tricky. Personally I'd prefer a little more content than a brief sentence as that leaves such sections awfully "listy".

• The edit summary is indeed poor - as you say "facts" makes it seem like there is some black and white dividing line and the rest is speculation, while it is in fact subjective. I am amazed something quite so simple can't be sorted out. If you want my opinion it seems like the kind of information that should be included. (Emperor (talk) 01:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

Indeed and I try and point out the guideline issues when they come up but I also can't follow him around and issues like whether certain wording is needed are issues you have to thrash out or get more input from other editors. As for blocking that is an issue you should raise with jc37 and/or Hiding but as I say it is often subjective and proving bannable offences looks to be tricky as it is usually this side of the line and it is more a pattern of behaviour than any specific incident. Poor/misleading edit summaries when pushing their own preferred version while the content is still under discussion is certainly a recurring issue that flies in the face of WP:CONSENSUS and borders on WP:OWN (in that the editor thinks they know the best way the article should be written). I'll leave the last call to the others but I'd suggest setting some clear lines that shouldn't be crossed: reverting when the content is under discussion (as well as misleading edit summaries). Something like that. (Emperor (talk) 02:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

My point is that I am chasing up obvious guideline issues but my time is finite and where it veers into areas that are more content disputes this issue is worth raising with a broader body of editors (as areas like how much information should be included in "other media" sections is a topic which touches on nearly all popular comics characters from the Big Two). It is worth noting that I have made progress on articles like Hank Pym but it sucked up a lot of my available time.

On the patterns of behaviour: these aren't usually things that would get an editor banned but it is possible to set out lines in the sand which shouldn't be crossed which then could get a user blocked. I think it is easy to show editing in their preferred version while it is under discussion (which flies in the face of WP:BRD and WP:CONSENSUS) and is one of a number of actions that seem to tie progress up (and waste a lot of people's time). This is an approach jc37 has already started on misleading edit summaries and I'd recommend discussing further such limits with jc37 and take it from there.

On Black Bolt: I am not sure what is going on there but see this. (Emperor (talk) 19:43, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

Well, personally, what he did there was certainly along the right lines and is an angle worth pursuing. Feel free to discuss it more with him or to get more input from other editors if you aren't happy with anything. (Emperor (talk) 21:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

The editor who add his comments in the above-mentioned link is unfortunately all emotion and no logic. He's been trumped on a few articles by others and taken it personally. Asgardian (talk) 09:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

And yet, you yourself are making personal comments about other editors. Again. Nightscream (talk) 15:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, you look his History and decide. That was a fairly clinical comment from myself. Asgardian (talk) 03:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I will look at the policy that tells us not to make personal comments, and decide that you made a personal comment. Again.

All editors whom I've observed cherry-picking the policies and guidelines they like to follow, but chucking the No Personal Attacks, Don't Bite the Newbies, Assume Good Faith, etc. policies right out the nearest window, always, without fail, find some way to rationalize this behavior. "Clinical" is simply one more. Nightscream (talk) 04:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Living Laser Consensus

There is on what you asked for. I just have to backtrack and find it. I think I know where it is. Asgardian (talk) 09:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Black Bolt & Living Laser

On your points:

• I think you've made reasonable efforts on the Black Bolt front and just ignoring requests for comments and explanation. As I've said I know of nothing which says that FCBs should be 100% in-universe, in fact the main concern is usually from an article being too in-universe.

• I think I touched on this previously - the What Ifs? are alternate versions, so the Living Laser section should be in the other versions section. I must assume the consensus referred to is one that the in other media/other versions sections should be kept trimmed back to a bare minimum. Problem is I don't know of such a consensus and, while we should keep an eye out for such sections bloating, I don't think we can practically apply such a consensus to every occurrence (this would imply it was at the level of a policy which it clearly isn't). It would, for example, make sense if the topic is fully covered in another article so you'd only need a quick overview. That case doesn't apply here - the only place this is discussed is in that section, granted it might need a bit of the fat trimming from it but that could apply to just about everything here. So in summary: Yes it needed moving, no I can't think of a justification for stripping it down to the bare bones.

Hope that helps. (Emperor (talk) 22:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC))

Again on the points:

• Yes sorry I didn't actually finish my sentence I meant something like: "his ignoring you doesn't make this go away" so if he won't engage us on the points we've made I think it is not unreasonable to move on and to add this back in. My compromise might be to start the "Publication history" section (as it needs one) and add the majority of material there and throw in {{expand}} as all the earlier publications need adding in.

• I'd recommend adding the content back in where the section is now (as if it has been simply moved). Again as a compromise, if you think it can be trimmed down a bit then go for it (it seems a bit long for a single story).

So basically move forward with the changes you and I think seem perfectly reasonable but it'd be worth doing it in the way I suggest (Black Bolt should have a PH and it seems the best place for what we have - as the comics haven't been published there isn't a lot of plot to be going on with but I don't see a problem with adding some in with out-of-universe qualifiers thrown in). (Emperor (talk) 00:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC))

Personally I prefer an integrated PH and FCB but the examples you state are the exception and not the rule - the basic approach (and the way the Comics Project suggest you start articles) is laid out at WP:CMC/X#Comic book characters. The integration tends to happen with the bigger characters with a long history (and usually when they approach the top levels of quality) but that isn't the case with Black Bolt. How do you do it? As has been done with various other characters lacking a PH: Add the section, add the relevant bit of information you want to add and then add {{expand}} as you can see at Cyclops (comics) and Vixen (comics). Now it may be that these two sections get edited together as the article pushes on to GA/FA status but it isn't a B yet, partly because it is missing a PH, it is that section which is suitably out-of-universe and can be used for character development as well as the actual issues they have appeared in. It is this section which will absorb with FCB as the article improves. Without it the article will struggle to go up much higher.

The rest of your reply is a whole different topic - I'm not sure why you move on to suggesting further measures when you haven't tried my suggestions. There is no rule he has to talk to you but if he doesn't, it rather means he is ruling himself out of having a say in the direction the articles take in their next step, so if he starts reverting again he is on thin ice.

You asked my opinion and I gave it to you - I don't think you can just decide to skip moving things forward because you've assumed what Asgardian's reaction will and seem to have moved straight on to talking about sanctions. You are perfectly welcome to ask other people for an opinion, but you might want to be clear about what you want to do: improve the articles or impose further sanctions on Asgardian - I was discussing the former. I don't see why we are discussing the latter based on what you think might happen. So to answer your question: "what point do you agree that it becomes unavoidable to make administrative decisions?" When we aren't dealing with hypothetical situations. (Emperor (talk) 03:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC))

But I have addressed the issue - the article needs a PH. This can then be used for things like "Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning will be..." etc. As I've said I know of no reason that FCB shouldn't contain things like the title especially where the story is not with us yet. This happens a lot on other articles without an eyebrow being raised (although I have tended to move some of the information to the PH to keep the FCB focused on the actual story, even if described in out-of-universe material) and I know of no reason why it shouldn't be done here.

When I say you haven't tried the suggestions I mean the ones I give at the start of this section. The ones that deal with the nest step for the articles - which is what you asked me about. I have given you my suggestions on what to do next, you are welcome to accept or ignore my advice.

Again you ask me about sanctions - as I've said before I am not uninvolved (and neither are you) and will not be making any decisions on this and will leave the call up to other admins. However, as we have spent a lot of time discussing this and provided him with plenty of opportunities to help build consensus if he attempts to keep imposing his preferred version I would support calls for further sanctions. In fact it might be wise to drop people like jc37 and Hiding letting them know that we have come up with the next steps and if Asgardian again removes the material then they should consider further sanctions. Again I'd support this - a lot of editors have put in a lot of time on this and just ignoring everything and carrying on regardless is a serious issue. Making clear where the lines in the sand are beforehand really puts the ball in Asgardian's court. I assume they have this page on their watchlist but it'd be well worth making it clear.

It is also worth pointing out that we are discussing how to deal with disruptive editors who don't flagrantly breach the guidelines (we have run into a number of editors who game the system) - it will clearly take longer than more blatant violations but I feel it is possible. (Emperor (talk) 13:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC))

scream

hey nightscream just wanted to know, shouldn't there be a link at the top of the football player Corey Clarks' page as well letting people know if they want to read about Corey Clark the singer to follow the link to his page as well? It's displayed like that on the singers page so wouldn't it make sense to do the same for the football players page? Talk to you soon Liaishard (talk) 07:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)