Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by SlimVirgin (talk | contribs) at 08:28, 2 October 2005 (→BCE/CE again: explanation for my revert). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Just to let everyone know - I know the list of Kings is not completely tabulated yet - I thought I would wait to see how the dispute over the Kingdom of Israel list panned out before I continued with it.

--JohnArmagh 10:02, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

141 BCE–63 BCE: The Hasmonean State in "Palestine" established by the Maccabees

The area was not known as Palestine at this time. The area only became known as Palestine after the Roman destruction which was well after the Maccabee revolt.

I do not believe this is the case. Our own article Palestine (region) says: The term "Syria Palaestina" is first recorded by the 5th century B.C. Greek historian Herodotus, who wrote of the "district of Syria called Palaistinêi", and later Ptolemy and Pliny (who alludes to a region of Syria that was "formerly called Palaestina"), to refer to the eastern coast of the Mediterranean; it is generally accepted that the region they referred to extended further inland than the domain of the Philistines. At any rate, if we do not use Palestine, I am uncertain what the proper term would be. Judæa seems clearly inappropriate to refer to the whole region, since the Hasmonaean state consisted of not only Judæa, but also Samaria, Galilee, Idumæa, and so forth. Palestine seems like the best general term to mean "the southern part of the Levant" once we get past the period when we can use "Canaan." john k 02:21, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Synchronisms with other kingdoms?

Is it possible to make a better chronology by looking for synchronisms with other kingdoms? For example, Kings dates the raid of Shoshenq I ("Shishak") to the reign of Rehoboam, and Shoshenq died in 924 BC. Yet we still have a kinglist that dates Rehoboam's first year to 922 BC. Why?

BCE/CE again

Until 20:47, 29 September 2005 this article used both styles. User:Humus sapiens made it consistent to use BCE/CE . User:Jguk then changed date styles (in the now consistent article) , followed by various other reverts. As a compromise I suggest undoing User:Jguk's other date style change to this article , and going back to the inconsistent state. Anyone (other than User:Jguk) object? Sortan 15:56, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the best way to deal with the issue is just too let sleeping dogs lie and leave it as it was. So no, I don't object. john k 17:11, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Sortan's main contributions to Misplaced Pages appear to be aggressively edit-warring to add BCE notation to a small number of articles. I'd be grateful if someone else would look at his contributions and remind him that WP is an encyclopaedia, not somewhere to make what are effectively trolling edits, jguk 17:28, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Jguk's main contribution to Misplaced Pages seem to be aggressively edit-warring to change BCE/CE to BC/AD, changing American English to British English, and various other style disputes. I'd be grateful if someone would look at his contributions over the past year and remind him of what constitutes consensus, and that WP is not his personal fiefdom. Sortan 20:13, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Please, let's not get into ad hom attacks. The articles Kingdom of Judah & Kingdom of Israel are integral parts of Jewish history, and this is a good enough reason to use denominationally neutral and encyclopedic BCE/CE instead of chauvinist Before Christ/Anno Domini notation. Besides, I don't see why the changes clandestinely made by some anon crusader should stick. I promise not to change notation in Jesus and Paul of Tarsus but having a neutral option, what is the reason to use potentially offensive notation here? ←Humus sapiens←ну? 02:32, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

There has never been any consensus on wikipedia that "BC/AD" is "chauvinist". As I've noted previously, BCE/CE is not any more "denominationally neutral" than BC/AD - it is just a euphemism and represents the same Christ-centric calendar. Furthermore, the basic fact is, that while BC/AD might have a literally religious meaning, in practice, it is an example of something analogous to ceremonial deism - it is acceptable because, through repeated usage, the theoretical religious meaning is essentially gone. john k 04:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

It may be added that if you are going to play the "Jewish subjects shouldn't use Christian dates" card, the history of the divided kingdoms is also a subject of some interest to Christian history, and that the vast majority of those who have read about this period of history in the Books of Kings, and who have studied its archaeological basis, have been Christians. I don't think this is particularly relevant in either instance, but it seems to me that in issues like that it is essentially a deadlock. john k 04:31, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

First, let's not mix up calendar systems and notations. If someone advocated using exclusively Jewish calendar in article Jesus, some complaints would be understandable. The issue here is, BC/AD stomps religious feelings of a minority in an article describing their history, while the BCE/CE notation is denominationally neutral and is increasingly commonly acceptable . The BCE/CE notation is already being used in many articles; since WP does not have a standard notation, if & when we get to voting for it, I am sure we will have our chance to express our POV. As for Christians reading about Jewish history, that would be exactly the place to promote religious tolerance, don't you think? ←Humus sapiens←ну? 05:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Per the MoS either notation is fine: "Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but be consistent within an article." I'd like to politely suggest that you all have valuable contributions to make to Misplaced Pages, and prolonging this dispute is not one of them. Keithlard 07:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Let's examine humus sapiens strawman argument. BC/AD notation quite simply does not carry with it any religious connotations anymore. Whether they ever did, I do not know, but let's not go down all that false etymology route. Nowadays it is just a way of denoting dates, nothing more. It is also the only notation generally understood by the general public worldwide - and since we should aim to make the article accessible to as many people as possible, that is the form we should use - simple as that.

The religious tolerance argument humus sapiens makes is also a strawman argument. As noted above, their is no longer any religious meaning in BC/AD notation (note that where relevant the Church expands AD to Anno Domini or In the Year of Our Lord, it does not rely on the abbreviations to denote this). In a secular society such as the one I live in, history has given us many terms, dresses, customs, foods, etc. from many different religions. I can't think of anything less tolerant than to pick any one out against a particular religion and seek to eliminate it.

On articles solely about Jewish history (and I agree with John Kenney here that this article is not solely about Jewish history), it may be useful to some readers to give dates in the Jewish calendar. In which case - let's give the dates in the Jewish calendar, but in brackets after we have given dates in the Gregorian/Julian calendar (as appropriate).

Finally, we have already voted on it - it was a very divisive vote (and my assessment is that there is little desire to repeat the exercise). The proposal to move to BCE/CE notation wikipedia-wide failed to even garner a majority, let alone the 80%+ consensus that would be needed to change policy. We are left with saying that as this page has predominantly used BC notation, that is where it should remain, with the opposite conclusion being reached on some other articles. Not ideal, but the only real compromise that at present has any chance of working, jguk 07:37, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Jguk, this isn't about whether to move to BCE notation Misplaced Pages-wide, but in articles where BC/AD is inappropriate, and it seems to me that this is clearly one of them. BCE is widely used by academics, and I'm surprised for that reason to see John objecting to it. I also want to point out this Guardian article to you, as you've often argued that BCE is an American or Jewish thing, but this is a Roman Catholic writer, former nun, and theologian writing in a British newspaper. SlimVirgin 08:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)