Talk:Fitna (film) - Misplaced Pages

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Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2

Removed from Liveleak again?

Resolved

content

Anybody noticed that the second versions are not available on Liveleak anymore? They are still listed on Wilders' profile, but if you click one of them, a message states: "This media item has been removed by the uploader". - Face 22:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep, he posted the links to the new videos here. StaticGull Talk 11:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Take note of this too. StaticGull Talk 13:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Eh... I was actually referring to those new videos. They are not on Liveleak anymore, and they have vanished from Wilders' profile now as well. I'm sure they were still there a few days ago. It's logical to assume that those legal actions are related. But I did a google search, and found nothing about this, and pvv.nl or geertwilders.nl do not mention it neither. Cheers, Face 18:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

That text on FOK, how old is that? - Face 18:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, right. I only found the text on FOK yesterday. I think we should mention the removal of the videos from Liveleak in the article, and provide a mirror to the videos. StaticGull Talk 11:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

So long as we provide a citation from a source that notes the removal/move to another location. It isn't our habit to engage in recentism. Let's wait for things to settle down a little bit. There is no hurry to be first with the news. If anything, such is contrary to our role as encyclopedia. - Arcayne () 16:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I think Arcayne is right, but I also agree with Gull that we should have a working link. It's difficult though to find a copy of the second version which is complete (not cut in half or something) and of good quality. Perhaps the second edition should be uploaded to Wikileaks as well? Anyway, I've added this copy of the English version to the article. I haven't found a qualitative Dutch mirror yet. I am also uncertain about adding the original edition. Cheers, Face 20:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

There's a Dutch mirror of the original version to be found here, although it seems as though all the links to original versions have been deleted. StaticGull Talk 15:36, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Gull, but as for the first versions, I like the Wikileaks page best. In fact, I think the first versions are relevant enough to be included, so I added a link to Wikileaks in the EL section. Cheers, Face 21:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Btw, I had this unprotected a few days ago. I would appreciate it if you would keep this article and its sister page into your watchlists. Cheers, Face 22:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh... the Liveleak videos seem to be back. I wish I had checked that earlier. Re-added the links. - Face 22:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Reaction: Moaned?

Resolved

Can we have either an attribution or a less charged word than moaned please?

Hcobb (talk) 14:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Done StaticGull Talk 15:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Female genital cutting

Currently there are disagreements over whether Female genital cutting should be considered "female genital cutting" or "female circumcision" or even sometimes "female genital mutilation". The Misplaced Pages article uses "Female genital cutting", which sounds to me like a neutral term between the both extremes, although there may be specific criteria for the use of the word "mutilation" that have been passed — the sources used in this article do use the word. Since this article should not be written from a religious POV, I do not believe religious language should be used. Thoughts? MantisEars (talk) 22:14, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Disagreements? I don't know if we had disagreements about that word. But it's an interesting question nevertheless. I changed it to "in preparation for female genital cutting" per the title of the WP article. I think "cutting" is the most general and NPOVish term, as multiple types of the practice are defined. I do not think we should use "mutilation". Much to heavy. "circumcision" is possible, but is more often related to male genital cutting. Cheers, Face 22:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

"Islam" >> "islam" and "Muslim" >> "muslim">_"islam"_and_"Muslim"_>>_"muslim"-2008-07-08T15:36:00.000Z">

I would like to reach consensus here before editing the article — as to prevent edit-warring — to change "Islam" to "islam" and "Muslim(s)" to "muslim(s)". Doing so would be perfectly NPOV, as these are the correct spellings of these words. However, "islam" and "muslim(s)" are widely capitalised in other articles, which is why I'd like to be assured that my edit won't be reverted. StaticGull Talk 15:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)>_"islam"_and_"Muslim"_>>_"muslim""> >_"islam"_and_"Muslim"_>>_"muslim"">

I think, as both are proper names for something, like Bob, or Christian, or Mormon, we have to capitalize each instance of their mentioning. Also, MOS:CAPS seems to agree with this interpretation, which can be found here. Btw, its good that you took the time to discuss the matter first. :) - Arcayne () 01:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I searched on other articles too and it seems to be rather inconsistent, so I didn't want to waste time editing. We'll leave it like it is, then. StaticGull Talk 16:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Intro

I've largely rewrote/expanded the lead, and removed that fact tag while I was at it (that thing had been there for ages even though there was nothing unsourced). I think the general message that the film wants to convey is that the Islamic religion incites its followers to hate those who do not live according to the Islamic teachings, and esspecially those who criticizes, threatens or attacks the Islam. I tried to put it the best way I could, here is the diff. Any suggestions? Cheers, Face 20:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Propaganda

This movie is clearly a Propaganda Film. Anti Muslim polemics are normally justified by western press and politicians, by arguing that Islam is not a race(hence no protection from bigotry as offered to Jews). However, Propaganda can be made against the followers of a religion as well and there is nothing that implies that only propaganda against a race can be called so Zencv 17:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Question to the people constantly reverting, so what are the reasons for not marking this a propaganda film? Tesivon 19:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I think there's an isue with reliably citing it as such. Your (or another editor's) opinion isn't citable as a source. - Arcayne () 21:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess with a reliable source it should be OK to call it a propaganda. We cannot wait for Wilders himself to agree on this. Meanwhile The Eternal Jew has easily qualified as one even without source Zencv 22:46, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Institutionally defining the film officially as "Propaganda" is an editorial pejorative. The film is editorial criticism on the level of Michael Moore not Leni Riefenstahl. Comparison to the The Eternal Jew, and its intimations that the physicist Albert Einstein for example was related to the pornographic industry is inappropriate. The film may be offensive, but it is opinion and does not meet the standard for Propaganda. 75.49.223.52 (talk) 15:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Nothing in the article should be changed without a reliable source, such main facts should be backed up my multiple non-bias reliable sources.--Otterathome (talk) 15:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect, anon 75. When we have reliable citation that says the film is propaganda, it moves our of the purview of "editorial pejorative" or speculation. It is cited. Reliably, verifiably and neutrally cited, it should be pointed out. It was reverted without citation. Now, we have one (as per this edit). Now, if you take issue with it, find a source that directly, specifically contraverts or rebuffs it. Otherwise, I think the matter is resolved for now: a source was requested, and one was provided. - Arcayne () 15:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

There was nothing neutral, reliable or verifiable about an anonymous editorial opinion piece from a non-neutral politically active internet site.75.49.223.52 (talk) 17:32, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Anon, you are (presumably) new, so I will direct you to actually read the wikilinks that were provided. Simply saying the source doesn't meet these criteria is not sufficient; you are not a citable source of refutation. I will ask you, politely, to refrain from edit-warring your personal opinion into the article - it smacks of edit-warring.

In fact, re-read the entirety of my previous post. It seems, in your hurry to revert for the second time (under this IP address, anyway), you apparently missed the actual discussion. If you are having difficulty understanding the policies and guidelines the rest of us choose to follow as contributors, take the time to swallow your pride and ask. If you don't want to ask anyone here, there is an entire list of administrators who can assist you in the search for wiki-knowledge. That list of admins is here: WP:LOA.

Please respect Community consensus. This issue has been clearly discussed, overturning community consensus can not be done lightly.

Short film or Propaganda film?

In the lead it currently says it's a short film but shouldnt it be a propaganda film? Just like with the 1940 The Eternal Jew? Quote: "A propaganda film is a film, either a documentary-style production or a fictional screenplay, that is produced to convince the viewer of a certain political point or influence the opinions or behavior of people, often by providing deliberately misleading, propagandistic content." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Finit universe (talk • contribs) at 22:33, 1 April 2008

The film's stated intent was to open up a dialogue, not to mislead. And if you didn't notice, it has done that job well. Muslims are responding with thoughtful response and imagery instead of violence. MantisEars (talk) 21:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Propaganda is a very POV word and should be avoided. 22:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

In contemporary usage "propaganda" is a pejorative term, much like "brainwashing". It's best to stick to neutral terms. MantisEars (talk) 16:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Propaganda is a very loaded term. Alexwoods (talk) 19:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I think Maam2222 shows the problem. It is a short movie (that is a fact, as it is short and a movie). However, it is not to Misplaced Pages to decide it is propagande as that would be original research and the classificaiton would not be verifiable; therefore a vote is irrelevant; and we should shy away from subjective and laden terms like "propaganda". Of course if a thorough analysis is provided (not a newspaper at this stage as those are opinions that differ)/ or if there is recorded and broad consensus outside Misplaced Pages calling it propaganda (as is the case for the Eternal Jew) we should adopt that name, but in that case we should cite the sources naming it propaganda. Arnoutf (talk) 20:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I think ill agree with Arnoutf on this. There wont be any objective source that can be used for a very long time though. So let it just be called a short film. -- Finit universe (talk) 11:01, 2 April 2008

"Short film" is the neutral term. If you want to unequivocally label it "propaganda", you'll need to cite a consensus of reliable sources. - Merzbow (talk) 23:37, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Seconded... and we will need to wait until the argument is generally settled before we can make a final verdict on this... so until then it's best to use the uncontroversial term. gren グレン 05:18, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Quran and English Translation (Audio): http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=175&TitleName=Quran_-_Qari_Waheed_Zafar_Qasmi_with_ENGLISH_translation(Smaller_Size) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.118.128.132 (talk) 11:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree, to call it a propaganda film would be too hasty without completed information. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 00:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

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