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Proposed Merge
Extrajudicial Executions and Assasinations should be merged here. Have you ever seen a legal assassination? "Extrajudicial assassination" is a pleonasm. I don't think the merge will cause any difficulties (beside, it really is a stub). Tazmaniacs 20:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Go for it. MadMaxDog 20:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Definitional issue
The article starts out with "Assassination is the murder of a political figure or other important individual". That's fine. The list of assassins in the table shows people like Mehmet Ali Agca, who failed in his attempt. If he had failed in an attempt to murder Joe Bloggs the non-entity, he would not be called a murderer, simply because no murder occurred. Yet if he tries to assassinate the Pope, and fails, he's still called an assassin. This seems out of kilter with the opening sentence. Not sure how we can resolve this. Any ideas? JackofOz 00:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- He would be called an 'attempted murderer', and might still be a viable example for the murder article. What you really have seems a problem with the name of the table (which I renamed in the meantime to change the focus, BTW). Is it really necessary to make a mouthful of it and call it the 'Notable assassinations and attempted assassinations' subsection? I think not, though you are certainly technically correct. MadMaxDog 08:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to make this harder than it needs to be. Simply put, Agca failed in his attempt to become an assassin. Does he really belong here at all? I have less of an issue with the title of the table than some of its contents. Maybe we can have a separate section listing some famous failed assassination attempts. It still troubles me as it stands now. JackofOz 04:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- On brief reflection, what I think should happen is this: Have 2 tables, Notable Assassinations, and Notable Failed Assassination Attempts. Then we could remove the right-hand Comments column of the existing table. Those that succeeded would belong to the first table, and those that failed would belong to the second table. Any comments in the existing Comments column that are other than "succeeded" or "failed" could become footnotes to the relevant table. If you agree, I'm happy to do the work required. JackofOz 04:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree with you. I'll think about a name change again, but I find that splitting the table is pointless at this stage (and maybe at any stage, for it is not to be exhaustive, but only to list some notable cases for example reasons - therefore, it is doubtful whether two lists would improve the article, even if they are both good quality).
- There is no article for attempted assassination, nor should there be. A failed assassination (of the level as cited for the Pope for example) is close enough to a real one to deserve dealing in the same context. MadMaxDog 07:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- You make good sense, MMD. I'll think on this some more. Anyway, thanks for tweaking the title of the table. That's a very good compromise, at least for now. JackofOz 07:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I realise this is a thorny issue, and this article is actually better than most when it comes to consstancy, but the article says that politics has to be a prime motivation, but then describeed the killing by Mossad or Palestinian guerillas as assasination. I make no comment on the morals of this, but surely taking out foot-soldiers is tactical not political? Personally I think this is because the definition is too narrow, rather than the mossad reference being incorrect. Epeeist smudge 16:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- The Israelis also consider it "sending a message", and whenever they can, they target major figures (though when those can't be found, they will go for lower level people - for, again, purely political reasons: they don't want to be seen doing nothing). So I think no change is necessary - but you can surely have a go at changing the definition, and we can then see if that takes care of your point without widening it too much. MadMaxDog 07:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Myself, I have a problem with the shooting-down of Adm. Yamamoto -- an enemy soldier -- during wartime and actually in the theatre of war, being classed as an "assassination." How was that military action essentially different from any other? --Michael K. Smith 20:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
- I understand the ambiguity you refer to. Also it clashes a bit with the definition provided above. However, it is a) in the history section of the article (which does not have to follow the definition guideline put forth as strictly) and b), it is generally considered 'unsporting', for want of a better word, to go after specific people during a war. Which is a bit weird, morally (surely the LEADERS of a war are valid targets, not just the 'peons'?), but probably derived from the honour codexes that have developed during the ages. MadMaxDog 09:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Terminology
I see a problem with terminology used in the table on Notable Assassinations & Attempts. Currently they are listed as either "Failed" or "Successful". This immediately struck me as biased (reflecting the perspective of the assassin). I decided to change the terms:
"Failed" >changed to> "Attempt failed"
"Successful" >changed to> "Leader killed"
My change was immediately reverted, with the comment that I was using too much "political correctness". This seemed an odd reason for reverting since I don't consider myself to be a big PC'er. But at the time I did not think of a solid rebuttal for asserting the change. ...then a few days ago it struck me that the reason why the old terms were inappropriate was that it violated the NPOV policy. I re-implemented the change, citing the solid justification. Once again, this change got immediately reverted (although it took more than 9 hrs this time instead of 8 minutes - heh). The second reversion was presented with the rationale that "...'successful' is an adjective referring to an action, NOT a moral judgement". Here are my thoughts on that: I agree that 'success' is a word that refers to the action with no moral judgement. The problem is that it is a biased descriptor of that action. Put yourself in the shoes of a President's Secret Service agent. Can you imagine seeing your President die after taking a bullet and then calling the event "successful"? If not, then this is an indication that NPOV is not being upheld.
I will refrain from re-applying the change to give some time to see if anyone can present a solid argument that "successful" does indeed fit with the NPOV policy, or if it is in some other way a more appropriate term than "leader killed". ~ ChrisnHouston 22:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
- First off, I should have maybe avoided the words politically correct. As for the 'immediate revert', well, I do watchlist obsessively... Anyway, I still hold the opinion that using "successful", even with your comment explaining the view from the perspective of a bodyguard etc..., is not a violation of NPOV. Neutral point of view is concerned with an unbiased view - if you yourself agree that there is no moral judgment involved, why should it then be a problem?
- We would not change a (well-referenced) Misplaced Pages statement saying " X-land troops succeeded in crushing all remaining Y-land military units in the opening weeks of the Second Great Whatever War", even though it would certainly not be considered a very "successful" event to a Y-land citizen. Why should we act otherwise here?
- I am mostly concerned with replacing a simple, directly understandable word like "successful" or "failed" with a more complicated, and not as generally applicable construction. MadMaxDog 10:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- I see NPOV and morality as distinctly different issues. A comment can have absolutely nothing to do with morality, yet be infused with bias. Example: "The rower succeeded in winning the silver medal." If the goal was winning gold, then being awarded silver can be seen as a failure. A friend of mine got silver in the 84 Olympics, and to this day he considers it a failure. That is his point of view. My point of view is that his accomplishment was a success. Polar opposites, yet both valid.
- This is why words like "success" and "failure" must be used judiciously. The words are infused with a particular criteria that can be TOTALLY DIFFERENT from one user to the next. The author of an article may be totally oblivious that the values of major factions (perhaps even the majority) are not getting communicated. How many American Republicans would agree that the result of Ronald Reagan's shooting was a "failure"? How many Catholics worldwide would view the outcome of John Paul II's shooting a "failure"? I'd guess none, if not a very slim minority.
- Now I'll address your land troops example... I would not object given the wording you used because it is clear that "troops succeeded in crushing" is clear that "succeeded" fits with the goal of "troops". Now if the Assassination article would state something like, "shooter succeeded in killing", then I would not object there either (for the same reason). Likewise, I would be fine with a statement like, "Secret Service succeeded in foiling". In all of these examples, it is clear that "succeeded" represents the goal of the subject in the statement. The objection arises because the table in question does not have a distinct subject to make it clear who's values are being represented in the word "success/failure". The reason for a change to "attempt failed" is that it makes it clear that "failed" is the perspective of those making the "attempt".
- I do agree that it is important to avoid cumbersome terminology. But I don't see the change in question to be awkward at all. A statement you made that I totally disagree with is that the changed language is a "not as generally applicable construction". To say "leader killed" is much more general than "success", especially considering that a large group of readers (I'd say the majority) would consider a lot of these examples to be a "failure" in protecting the leader. ChrisnHouston 03:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- I added a ":" to each of your comments to better define the individual responses of each of us. Getting back to the matter at hand, I do see some merit in what you say, but remain unconvinced that your proposed change avoids being cumbersome (I'll admit that's partly on subjective reasons). I have however a possible solution, which I will implement in the table in a moment. I hope that will be suitable, even though you possibly wonder what all the fuss was about when my solution is not all that different from yours. Cheers MadMaxDog 09:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- I like it! Nice work. And thanks for being flexible. ChrisnHouston 20:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- An idea for a tweak just came to me, so I gave it a go (rationale provided). See what you think, M^2D. ChrisnHouston 20:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Selective assassination
I consider said article to be a canidate for merging into here, unless we want to split up the subcategories already in here dealing with government assasinations etc... MadMaxDog 05:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
"to fatally hit a man-sized target"
This likely implies that the target is not human. Who would want to "assasinate" a cow or a table? I'm changing it.. Ozkaplan 08:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Malcolm X
Why is Martin Luther King, Jr. mentioned, and not Malcolm X?
- I am not adding him myself because to do so would be to reward you for your childish, and conspiracy-driven VANDALISM during the last couple days. If someone adds a non-sensationalist, NPOV listing for him WHICH REFLECTS WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE REFERENCED MAIN ARTICLES about him, then I have no problem with having him in the list.
- Except that the list, like all such lists, threatens to grow out of control... sigh. MadMaxDog 10:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Unreferenced POV edits to Martin Luther King
User:Ghost of starman has been editing the list entry of Martin Luther King's assasination, basing his 'claims' on a totally unreferenced stub article of the supposed murderer, then deletes references from The King Center (see diff). Please watch for further such edits. MadMaxDog 10:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Stop reverting my edits. They are 100% true, and a Memphis jury agreed in 1999 during Mrs. King's wrongful death suit. The only people who dispute this are either lying or ignorant of the facts. Do a little reading on the subject before you try to censor a more knowledgeable person. I do not relish the idea of an edit war with you, stop being so immature, and do a little basic reasearch on the subject.
http://www.counterpunch.org/valentine02112003.html
http://www.courttv.com/archive/trials/mlk-civil/120899_verdict_ctv.html
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2000/022100a.html
etc. et al. The only real assassination going on is YOUR assassination of the truth. Knock it off. Ghost of starman 11:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
- How interesting that you provide the references here, in a talk page, instead of at Martin Luther King, or at the actual places where you did your edits (preferrably before this whole thing started).
- As noted, I do not think we are getting anywhere, the Three-Revert-Rule prevents me from doing another revert (I may have broken it already) and I have asked for outside mediation. I would ask you not to change the appropriate tags. Thank you. MadMaxDog 11:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough. This is nothing personal against you, understand? But what I'm writing IS the truth, and also is the belief of the King family themselves, and the afforementioned jury. I can't stand disproven government cover-ups being presented as truth on a neutral encyclopedia. I think we both mean well. Ghost of starman 11:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
- James Earl Ray was convicted of the killing. Claiming that the other person you mentioned did it is an egregious violation of WP:BLP. If you do it again, I'll lock the page. If you continue to do so, I'll block you. I hope I'm very clear on that. Jayjg 21:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter who was convicted of the killing, it matters who DID it. I didn't realize Misplaced Pages was a propaganda stooge site. Nobody who knows anything about this case believes that Ray did it, especially not the people who were actually THERE! Threatening to block me is pretty useless, as changing IP is trivial. If you insist on perpetrating falsehoods, and being an ignorant fool with his head in the sand, then by all means, I'll leave it alone. For now. Ghost of starman 02:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
By the way, can you prove that Marrell Mccollough is actually still a living person? Because I sure can't, and it's likely that he isn't. So you are wrong to claim a violation of WP:BLP until you can demonstrate that this person is still alive. Why don't you try following your own rules, Mr. Admin? Ghost of starman 03:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Malcolm X
Amazing how people won't address the root of the problem. You can either add Malcolm X to the list, or suffer continued vandalism. I would, but I don't know the format.
- Stop vandalising' (yes, YOU, you wrote this from the same IP) and we might consider it at some point (I'm starting to think the whole list was a bad idea). Until then, I'm not moving my ass for somebody with the manners of a spoiled brat. There is an article on Misplaced Pages on Malcolm X, which includes his assassination. Therefore there is no conspiracy or neutrality problem. What you are doing is the equivalent of throwing a tantrum because the Malcolm X link is missing a crosslink from another article. Go somewhere else and do something constructive. MadMaxDog 21:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Some points
Hi,
I've been spending a lot of time reading and re-reading this article in preparation of making a Spoken Article out of it. Some of the larger issues I came across:
- Reference to Ford out of the blue, in the 3-views section of definition problems. What's this Ford case being discussed? (Yes, I know... but a reader new to the topic would probably not!). I am in dubio regarding the proper place to introduce Ford into the beginning of the article.
- Not adhering to the definition chosen, for example in 4.1 As Tool of Insurgents. Since when is a police officer a political or famous figure? It seems to me that if we are to follow the definition, both ETA and Basque killings and terror campaigns do not count as assassinations. I know the definition says 'usually'... but then it's not much of a definition, is it? Can someone more versed in the English language shed some light on this?
- In lieu of 2: Some weasel words appear to have snuck in.. worst offender: 'Many have claimed that a successful assassination of terrorist leaders Osama Bin Laden might have prevented the September 11 attacks.'... personally I don't see exactly what information this would add. "If we would have killed the mastermind behind *insert random man-made tragedy here* it might not have happened"... right.
Input on these issues would be appreciated! If no replies come in, I'll WP:Be Bold and make edits to the best of my judgement... but I'd prefer some discussion prior to altering a well-established article.
Kander 21:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Add Tsar Alexander II to the list?
Just bumped into this article and missed Tsar Alexander II of Russia in the list. According to the correspondent article here in Misplaced Pages (http://en.wikipedia.org/Alexander_II_of_Russia#Assassination) he belongs in this list (which i'd modify myself gladly if i had any idea how to) Thanks a lot for your help! Jaui —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.16.249 (talk) 09:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Oswald/JFK
A citation request was placed on the chart next to the Oswald/JFK listing. I have removed it for a few reasons. First and foremost, the subject matter is ubiquitous. The fact the government report suggested Oswald acted alone and that some disagree is as much a known fact as saying "The United States is a country in North America". Beyond that, however, it is simply impractical to place a citation in this particular forum, because it would require WP:NPOV violation in order to choose what citation to use. Both names are linked in the chart, and the connected articles have copious citations and references and links to articles related to the assassination. Anyone seeking verification of the statement made in the chart (the statement preserves NPOV by reflecting both sides) can easily go to the two articles linked and find the desired sources. 23skidoo 15:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Quote or statement?
Under the sub-heading "Military Use," the first line is confusing. Is "Assassination for military purposes has long been espoused" a quote or a statement? If quote, it needs to be sourced. Jophus00 (talk) 03:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Notable list
In my browser (Safari3), the notable list is below the references, etc, yet when I go to move it up, it's already up there. Why is it split from it's regular section when I view it? —ScouterSig 03:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Redirect
"Assassin" should not redirect here. An assassin is not the same as an assination, and assains have a much different history, such as ninjas and hassassians.Rayvn (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- An assassin is not the same as an assassination, but the concepts are very closely related. Assassins are people who perform assassinations. Having two articles would lead to a huge amount of duplication — what would go in one that wasn't relevant to the other? And Ninjas and hashshashim are mentioned in this article, so what's the problem? —KCinDC (talk) 23:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- They are too different for one article, and the noun also includes pop-culture references. A regular encyclopedia, as well as a dictionary, would have two different entries. Mainly, in that assassins are used outside of assassination, such as regular kill-for-hire etc. Assassinations involve governments; assassins do not necessarily.Rayvn (talk) 22:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Assassination as murder?
In the introduction assassination is described as "murder", in some dictionaries this is the case, in others it is "killing".
In this article Yamamoto's death is listed as an example of an assassination.
Since "U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt requested Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox to 'Get Yamamoto'," would this mean the US president was a murderer, or that this was not really an assassination as it is defined in the introduction?
This could be cleared up by using the term "killing" rather than the more specific "murder" which is the same but applies only when the action is viewed as "unjustified". Constan69 (talk) 10:51, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
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